‘Star Wars: Maul—Shadow Lord’ Check-in

Greetings and welcome to House of R. A Ringiverse podcast on the Ringware podcast network.

I'm Mallory Rubin and she is here.

Real, real reversal to talk about her animated boyfriend.

Mall.

It's Joanna Robinson.

Rubin.

I'm not sure it sounds the same as Kadobe.

But Kadobe voice.

You tried.

You tried.

You tried.

And Mall.

A lot of his life is about effort and the hustle and trying.

So I can keep respect it.

We are here to talk about the two-part premiere of the newest Star Wars show, Star Wars.

Mall.

Shadow Lord.

You've got a colon in there.

And the head.

It's all happening.

And we will get to it right after this.

Okay, Joe.

Before we dive into today's mini mall celebration.

Quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick one.

You're packing up your life to move to a different city.

I am heading to the airport in mere hours to go up to the Bay Area for rewatchables.

But we love mall.

So even though this is going to be a little bit briefer than our typical dalliances with

Sith Lords or otherwise, we wanted to spend a couple minutes here with one of our favorite

Star Wars baddies.

And we've got some other stuff coming on the feed as well because we've already recorded

the next pot.

We did it yesterday.

We did it.

It's going to run in a couple days.

Look at that.

We can say with utter and complete confidence that Buffy season four part two in the camp

in your feeds on Thursday get excited and probably not going to be too long of a

wait before we do season five.

We're excited to keep going with the Buffy rewatch.

That's been a blast.

We will also be continuing our Chris Nolan rewatch on the journey, the path of the days,

weeks, the track board, the Odyssey.

And up next is Memento.

So that's exciting.

Will you come to the studio covered head to foot and tattoos having excited?

You know, he's not covered head to foot.

I might tie.

I might tie.

I might tie.

You know, unbuttoned chest.

Just tie.

Show me a little chest.

Yeah.

I mean, people are going to expect it now that you've said it, you know, I'll think about

it.

Your enduring public is going to wait with baited breath.

Joanna, how can everybody follow along?

Oh, what a great question.

Listen, why don't you subscribe to the pod?

That's a good idea.

Follow us on social.

I'm just going to zoom through this.

We don't have a lot of time here today.

It's dally, right?

So follow us on social.

You know where to find us.

Instagram, TikTok, etc.

Add us to our pod.

I was most of our pod.

We're on our own feed.

What a joy.

What a joy.

Hobbes and dragons and T-Mail.com.

We've already gotten some of your buffy responses, some of your momentum and dissipation.

Want to hear your mouth thoughts.

Yeah.

I want to hear all about them.

Oh, and also, if you're one of the many people who have been emailing us or commenting,

like, where are the other Daredevil episodes?

We never said we were doing that show week to week.

That was never a promise we made from us too.

So will we check back in?

Probably.

Hopefully.

I'm planning to go week to week on that show.

So, yeah, there you go with love and respect.

Love and respect to Matt Murdock, but not to Heather.

Never.

Spoiler warning for today's pod.

Obviously the first two episodes of Shadow Lord chapters one and two, the duck revenge and

sinister schemes.

I love these episode names.

They're so moody.

There you go.

But here's the thing.

We're also going to talk about other mall canon today.

We're going to be diving it in.

Some memories, celebrating just some favorite moments that we consider crucial.

We're not doing a deep dive of the first two episodes.

But we're sort of like using the premiere of this show to talk about the premise of the

show and why it's interesting, why it positions mall as a character in an interesting moment

of the Star Wars timeline, but he's timeline most of all and how the framing of the story

so far has pulled on some of our fondest ties to the character from either the past or

future of the timeline.

So if it's happened in the Clone Wars or Rebels or Phantom Menace or solo hashtag makes

solo two happen.

You just spent a lot of time on that hologram.

I know you didn't doubt that I'd get half the challenge to happen in there.

And guess what?

I did.

It's been 27 years.

Of Darth Maul.

So I'm in a Star Wars fan for whom Maul has always been here.

I know.

That's really cool.

What a cool time.

Sometimes he's been Darth Maul, Sith Lord.

Sometimes he's just tried really hard to pretend he's a Sith Lord and sometimes he's

just Maul.

Sometimes he's trying to get boss.

Sometimes he's walking around like a metal spider on a trash planet.

Sometimes he's just half a guy.

I'll always a full guy that Maul.

He's the best.

I did to just talk about why he's such a fun and interesting character in all of his

many variations.

So let's get to our mini Maul dive.

Let's do it.

Okay, Joanna, season one of Shadow Lord, the latest, not just Star Wars show, but animated

Star Wars show.

And a lot of the great Maul canon has existed and come to us in the animated form is 10 episodes

but it's airing over five weeks.

They're doing two a week.

So we got two episodes already.

The finale lines up quite nicely for May the 4th.

Maybe that's just a fun way to have a great Star Wars moment.

Maybe it means something is happening in that finale that will be a, ooh, May the 4th

be with you, big Star Wars thing on the connected canon front.

Who knows?

But guess what?

Question that we don't have to ask is, will the finale end by setting up the future of

the story because they already renewed it?

They renewed it for season two before season one even premiered and season one is getting

really good reviews.

So people seem excited about the show for Star Wars animated and fuzziest or maybe for

people who are just diving into the animated verse for the first time because they're interested

in Maul or they want some good Star Wars.

This is a fun little moment.

So let's start kind of just in the big picture sense.

Like, why do you love Maul as a character and what is your relationship to his animated

canon in particular?

And to Star Wars animation is a way to explore character canon beyond what we get in the live

action.

Before I answer that question, the Esau beautifully puts me in.

Can I say really quickly?

Because now you have my like theory brain going.

Yeah.

I've only watched the first two episodes.

They sent us a bunch of screeners.

I only watched the first two episodes.

Rare moment of restraint for me.

Yeah.

But here are some of the other episode titles, right?

Whisper some the unknown, Pride inventions, Inquisition, Night of the Hunted, Call to the

Oblivion, The Creeping Fear, Strange Allies and the finale is just called finale, which

is a really weird name for a finale of a show that's getting another season to just

call it finale.

So is it a finale of what, you know, like, is there is a double meeting in that?

I've also seen some theories.

And again, I am not washed ahead.

Is it an TV announced title for that episode?

Possibly.

Very possibly.

I am willing to consider that.

But it's not written that way because usually if that's the case, it would be like TVA.

Yeah.

So either it's like a fake title that they put out there or, you know, or it's like new

Avengers and it will change or who knows what.

Like.

Chapter 10.

Chapter 10.

The Thunderbolts.

Chapter 10 Vators in this one.

You know, like, who knows?

Like something like that.

I know that that's something a lot of people are asking, like, will we see a mall Vator

fight?

Because if they can like sneak a couple fights in for Obi-Wan and Vader, why couldn't

they do it for mall and Vader?

So something to think about.

I don't know the answer.

I'm just asking about you.

No, I will be astonished if over the course of this show, whether it's in season one,

I don't know if an finale would be a great place.

but over the course of this show,

if they don't, we'll be making more than one appearance

because animated Vader is like a,

I mean, obviously there's a storyline

whose Star Wars were broadly,

but Folloni loves to get.

They have Vader into the animated mix.

They have no chill when it comes to bed.

So, that's where we are.

Okay, so why do we love Mall or why do I love Mall?

This is a really easy answer for me

because we've been talking a lot about

Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer

and Mall really just fits into that sort of like,

that larger sort of like Loki,

you know, Sawyer, Spike, Jamie Lannister,

sort of archetype for me.

He's less on a redemption arc and they have said very clearly

on the show, we are not redeeming Mall on the show.

Like that's not something we're interested in.

Like he's a baddie, he's a baddie.

Like that's the idea.

But the thing about Mall is there's so much nuance

to, you know, the shape that his evil takes.

And like Spike and I think Spike and Loki especially,

if his cause aligns with your cause,

he's gonna work with you.

And it's gonna be really fun

and he's gonna be really good at it

and you're gonna be really happy to have him on his side

and then he's gonna be like,

did you forget I was evil?

I am.

So, you know, that's just the fun of Mall.

I think Sam Wittwer's performance

is absolutely incredible to transform a character

who showed up in the Phantom Menace

and looked really cool, but was just kind of like,

you know, with love and respect to Peter Sarafenoets

who did the voice for Mall and in the Phantom Menace,

like just not much there there,

but besides the really cool look

in the Kiki flips and stuff like that.

So for Sam Wittwer, a huge Star Wars fan

to leverage the work he had already done

in, you know, video games and animation for Star Wars

to get this gig to then just like own this character

and be so good at what he does here

that they, that Mall becomes something they can't resist

bring you back again and again and again

because he's so fun to watch and to listen to.

And then Sam Wittwer becoming, like already being

this huge Star Wars nerd, but becoming this like,

he's like, don't call me in encyclopedia, I'm a hollow crown.

Like he's just like this huge font of Star Wars nerdery.

So he's like excellent on the conventions circuit

or on a podcast or in the case of he just everything

about Star Wars.

And so for him to have like a co-creator credit on this show.

So for this character that he took over,

but then like has really taken over.

That's a really cool story too.

And it's a story again, I'd say I talk about a lot

when we talk about Spike on Buffy

of like an actor seeing an opportunity

and just really giving something

as all the juice that he has and becoming

just an indispensable, undeniable,

compulsively watchable kind of character.

And that's what Sam has done for this role.

And I just, I admire him for that.

I love it.

I love it.

He, uh, went where nerd, nerd king is just such a prominent

part of our lives consuming stories

that we love in worlds we love for so long.

You know, I still got some notes for beloved crash down

in BSG, could've gone differently for him,

but it was wonderful to say I'm performance.

Aided and being human, one of my favorites obviously,

but not just mall, but he's like his voice work

and his performances across a number

of different Star Wars animated properties, live action,

video, central to video game can and et cetera.

Like he's just been such an inexhaustible part

of the Star Wars experience for fans for so long.

And he's been embodying mall for so long.

You know, we're into the second decade of it.

And longer than that for the character,

but just for Sam's connection to that role.

And so for him to feel such a deep tie and investment

and continue to explore mall story

and also just to your point, like to have that authorship

and partnership with the creators is just a really cool thing.

And we love the, you know, the enthusiasm

and when that permeates into the quality of the story,

that's like always a rewarding thing if you as a fan

are invested in a character in the story.

It's great.

It's also my approach to this show is so different from how

I would usually feel about sort of like a,

it's a sequel to a prequel to a, you know what I mean?

Like it's just one of those Star Wars stories.

It's like really jammed in the middle of like a bunch

of other stuff.

And like sometimes I can bear tremendous fruits.

And then sometimes you're like, are you just doing this

to do it or like I feel so hemmed in

by what I already know about this world

or this character or something like that.

But hearing Sam went, we're talk about like the questions,

the psychological philosophical emotional questions

he has about mall as a character

and what he wants to explore with this show.

It doesn't feel like we're doing it just to do it.

It really feels like, you know, to go back to like Obi-Wan,

like the Obi-Wan show I just don't really feel like they had

some questions about Obi-Wan they really wanted to answer.

They were just sort of like, wouldn't it be cool

if Obi-Wan and Little Leia like popped around

and all this other stuff happened.

And sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't.

But like I did not feel like they fundamentally had some

like really cool questions and answers

that they wanted to get through on that show.

What about wouldn't it be cool if Obi-Wan got really sweaty,

slicing sushi and the baking?

Many sons disgusting.

It didn't smell good.

It didn't smell great.

It was a good idea.

It was a good idea.

I love the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the character

archetype that you're identifying, which is so compelling.

And the genuine like open set of questions for a mall

in this slice of his life.

Like it is interesting.

You know, one of the things that really everybody

involved the show, Whitworth, the creative team,

the writers of the directors, have been hammering

is the idea that like, don't need any, to do any home.

No, no, no.

You don't need to have read the son of Dath and Miracomix.

Though I'd recommend them.

They're great.

You don't need to have seen Clone Wars or Rebels.

Though I'd recommend them.

They're great.

You can just come in cold and start here.

One of the things that we obviously like to do on this podcast

is talk about the connections and text to the stories

and also then provide that context for viewers

who might be coming in.

But it doesn't, even though it is positioned

in such a fascinating spot in the timeline,

where there are simultaneously a lot of open room to play.

Like this show, we'll run through some of the timeline

beats in a second here, but this show is right after,

set right after Order 66.

They haven't said like the exact date,

but it basically said an 18 BBY order 66, 19 BBY.

And basically that means that this show is going

to be telling story contemporaneously with what Bad Batch

just covered.

And as everyone will recall, when Bad Batch came out,

one of the big talking points was like,

this is actually not a stretch of the canon timeline

that there's a lot of locked in definitive story.

And so in general, that seems like an interest right now

is to flesh out that stretch of relatively speaking open

world, but for mall.

And again, we issued the spoiler warning at the top,

but we will be talking not only about things that happened

to mall before, but things that happened to mall in the future.

I think that's part of what makes this really fascinating.

And this is not unique at Star Wars.

We know the end point.

So to the red, this is not going to be a redemption story

note that you shared.

How could it be?

Right.

I guess there could be a mini redemption.

It would be a limit of that.

Yeah, a limit of backside.

A redemption.

We love a redemption blip at a backside, very human.

That would be interesting, but like, we know that that moment

at the end of solo is coming with Crimson Dawn.

And the crime syndicate, we have crime syndicate canon

in the past.

But what we really know is coming is what happened in Rebels,

right?

Malacore and being stranded on that planet for years.

And the state that mall was in when he wound up with Ezra and

Canaan and our beloved Rebels crew.

And we know the end point, like, definitively for this character.

I mean, Rebels.

So somehow Palpatine returned.

So like, you know, they could do anything they wanted.

I guess with mall, but like his death scene in Rebels is so good

that I would be quite angry as much as I love mall.

I'd be quite angry if they figured.

Yes.

And I, I think that you are wise as always to remind us that

somehow Palpatine returned.

We should never go too long without saying that out loud.

But I think like they already did it with mall, you know, the

somehow mall, like this dude got caught in the end.

That's a matter of return.

And somehow I'm all returned.

And that is like such a delight.

And I don't think you realize how he survived, but they did it

with him already.

I don't think we would want to do that because I was actually

just like watching some old interviews with him this morning.

And there was one interview he gave where he was just sort of like

years ago talking about like, if Palpatine comes back, that

ruins the fairy tale of the original trilogy.

It's like, yeah, it ruins the fairy tale.

And then he's like, and then later he was like, okay, they did it.

That was someone else's fairy tale, I guess.

And that's fine, but it's not it's not the fairy tale that I, you

know, he's a he's a prequel defender.

And I think a kind of a sequel, hey, there, which, you know,

makes sense for the camp that he falls into and it's Star Wars.

But yeah, I don't think he would want to do a somehow mal return.

I think he would want to do something in that he either the time period

he he read it again is like 15 unknown years scattered across

malls lifetime.

Where are we going to go?

And he's like, here's here's here.

This is the most important place to go because in 19 BB 18 BB Y.

And I love that you're like, they didn't give us a date.

They give us a year, but she's like, what's the month?

What's the day?

How many minutes?

Well, they're doing a lot of like, like if you read the Star Wars

dot com preview pieces and the way that they were kind of setting up

the show, they were saying like a few years after his old master,

Darth Sidious succeeded in launching the Imperial Empire.

That's a quote and a few years into the creation of the Empire

shortly after the conclusion of the Clone Wars.

It's like, is it 70 is it 16 18 seems to be like where people have

landed?

Sam has been saying about a year.

That's the news.

Yeah, about a year is that as as close as we're going to get.

And so obviously like part of what happens in the first two episodes

is that we meet yet the latest, the newest.

OK, here's another master in apprentice who survived Order 66 on the

Jedi.

Order 66 biggest flop in all orders ever.

Overrated underrated.

And properly rated order 66.

It's overrated.

It's about deeply overrated.

So many Jedi survived.

Are you kidding me?

What's the work?

Man, but like it's a great place to set it because so to very quickly

run. So Phantom Man is 32 BBY.

So that's in the past, right?

Clone Wars, when mall comes back into the story and we realize that he has been

living on this trash planet as brother, a survival press, we'll hit a couple

times today quickly.

Reunited the episode brothers, the end of season four of Clone Wars.

That's 20 BBY.

So like there's a lot of mall story that comes in Clone Wars that

happens actually in a very concentrated period of time, which is sort of

interesting to go back and like reflect on.

It feels like it's a much longer stretch than it is because it's over many

seasons and many episodes of Clone Wars.

The lawless season five, one of my favorite episodes of Star Wars ever,

2019ish BBY.

That is the spoiler alert moment when mall kills my beloved Satine and

is working very hard not only to cement his control of Mandalore, but get revenge

on Obi-Wan and so much of the story.

Like, good no, Obi is rooted in revenge, revenge against Palpatine and

revenge against Obi-Wan, revenge against the characters who have hurt him directly

or just abandoned him to some sort of fate of being forgotten.

This is why I'm all this so fun because like he's so smart and he's so conniving

and he's so persuasive and he's so and when he decides to like, you know,

convince the whole crowd of whoever it is that they want to follow him or an

individual person.

He doesn't always succeed on the Supreme to sent obviously, but like, you know,

he's so convincing, he's so smart, he's so badass.

And then he just gets away from him because of his, you know, his obsessive

need for revenge is Denver.

And so this like fatal flaw in this incredibly accomplished man is, you know,

the being evil is also a flaw I would say, but also, you know, just like my

vengeance.

Yeah.

I mean, it's also tough to get your job to get the work done.

Yeah.

And like, it's fascinating to find him in a few stretches of a story, but in this

show, this is like going to clearly be a big thing.

This is a big emphasis at how he is pitching Devon and his like, hey, come be my

apprentice recruitment.

Freeman is like, all right, I'm going to tell you why the empire is bad.

Fascinated, right?

Again, he just despises, but he has despises.

Person you know makes a great point.

But he's not like team Jedi now, right?

He's also like the Jedi are still a problem too.

And here's why.

So he is operating from a position of all of these other factions of power have

either wrong me or are wrong or both.

Right.

I am the one who can see it clearly, but in order to pursue my ends and these

thoughts of fate and destiny, which like, of course, if you were the chosen

apprentice of palpy, Mr. Rule of two, you're going to have a little bit of a

god complex.

And then it's going to really fuck you up if you've been not just like figuratively,

but literally left to rot on a trash planet while you are replaced more than once.

That's going to fuck with your head.

And so one of the things we both really love the stretch of season seven of

Clone Wars when, you know, we get the Asoka mall duel and also like mall is

with Asoka as order 66 is unfolding at the end of Clone Wars.

It's not just the, it's some what a great time everybody had.

It's not just the like, okay, we have clarified where he is at this key moment.

It's the way he talks about Anakin and Palpatine's plots and what awaits in the

great hands and tides of fate.

And then you move into what we know awaits because we've seen it already.

Before we actually saw the end of Clone Wars, we had seen Rebels and we know

that when he's dying in Obi-Wan's arms and that's in twin sons, the season three

Rebels episode where Maul and Kenobi have their, their fateful duel in Tatooine,

that's set into BBY.

And Maul's like, you hear, you hear about the chosen one?

And like that is what kind of gives him peace even though he has lost to his

greatest foe.

So this story is set right after order 66.

The solo glimpse that we got his call with his hollow call with Kira,

10 BBY and then his Rebels appearance as Twilight of the Apprentice, the season two finale.

Just iconic stretch of Star Wars.

If you're like, I'm interested in it and the Star Wars animation, it seems like

a lot. What should I do?

Just watch start with Twilight of Apprentice and then get back to us.

That's three BBY.

That's the Ezra Apprentice ship recruitment.

So that's like a really far in the future still.

There's a lot to tell us about Maul and this crime scene to get

path, especially because what we know from the solo moment is like,

he's the Crimson Dawn stretch of the story is like a dominant force in his life

then. But by the time he's on Malachor in Rebels, he's a

broken man.

He's a husk.

So it's got to go right and then it's got to go wrong and that's the Maul story.

Anything else we can learn about him?

What a treat.

I think also just like emotionally, you touched on this.

But like emotionally to have been told that you were a chosen one or some kind,

you are stolen from your family and your child.

Ain't that the way?

And then groomed by Palpatine and told you are, I am the one and you are number two

and we're going to change this world.

And so to find yourself in 18 BBY and the world has changed the way your master

always said it was, but you have been left in the dust behind.

And you're at the dawn of this new era, all this stuff that you worked for,

that you were brought up to believe that you would be a part of and you were just not a part of it.

You were on the outside.

And so in that way, he has like, you know,

his feeling about the Jedi Order, which has always been so sneering, but it's also like

what are you without the institution that raised you?

And this is where he finds Devon, you know, like this question of like,

what have you been groomed to be?

What has let you down?

How can you define how you go forward if we're not exactly Sith?

What are we?

If we're not exactly Jedi, what are we?

And are we that together?

And like, how can I, I just think this is so fertile, such fertile territory for this particular

character to confront all that he helped build and all that he is not a part of?

Yes, let's go a fantastic way to put it.

I think the crime syndicate aspect of the story is interesting.

Off-shoot then of his relationship to the force into the Sith Order and to combating the Jedi

because on the one hand, I think like inherently the crime syndicate stuff is like

a little less interesting just as like a core germ of Star Wars story than you were

helped the teens apprentice and then you were in duel of faiths except like

Maul is a part of just such a seismic aspect of the story that this other stuff feels like

oh and the other parts of Maul's life.

But when it's done well, it could be not only refreshing in its variance, right?

There are certainly going to be aspects of the story that are rooted in a force user is

seeking to be home a master to an apprentice. That's clear.

That's the role that Devon is going to play in this story.

That is something that Maul is after, the way that he is talking in these first two episodes

about to to rook cast one of his because the Mandalorian commandos are here as well.

So he's like maintaining these different aspects of his identity.

That's something else we love obviously is like you lose a complete sense of yourself and then

you're stitching it together from other parts of you and when is that empowering and part of some

sort of journey of self-actualization.

And when is it something you're doing because you need to approximate the grasp of the thing

you lost and that's part of what is so interesting to me about the crime syndicate.

Placement and positioning for Maul.

It's cool to be on like a new planet like Janix and be with some new characters like

Lawson and see what the actual story inside of this season and maybe the show more broadly will be

on the from you know the path from Shadow Collective which we've gotten a lot of canon about

already to the new era, the Crimson Dawn. It's been here but the new era of Crimson Dawn

and what Maul's role in all of that be but the thing that's like most interesting to me about

it is that he is just thinking of everything including the syndicates as a way to seek revenge.

He talks about that constantly across these two episodes right.

This is favorite topic.

Demis.

Vario.

Crim it's just a list of the fuckers who've wronged him.

We either could use or yeah exactly who he's either going to try to use for his ends or eliminate.

And the fact that he's mixed up in a Shadow Collective in the first place sprung from Maul and

Talzin trying to gain more galactic power to challenge Palpatine.

So it's this I think it's a really smart way to tell a Star Wars story that threads the need

on nicely of giving us a new lens for a new story while connecting to the root of what made this

character a relevant part of our Star Wars experience in the first place because for him emotionally,

mentally, spiritually, right.

It all ties back to that place.

It's not instead of it's in addition to end a path back to always.

I think it's also really the potential here for Devana's character.

I'm not like as interested in obviously because I don't have all this like history with her.

Right.

But you know there's potential here but Devana is a potential

and a potential standard for, I don't know if this is the pocketful or not though it has been reported,

widely reported and there claims to be sourcing with George Lucas.

But like this idea that there was his whole plan for our sequel trilogy was for Maul to have

an apprentice and to quite like a apprentice, Darthalin.

And that this was like a story that George wanted to tell.

And so like this seems to be part of among the many other things that that Dave Folloni is up to

at Lucasfilm. Part of it is sort of like reclaiming some of these George ideas and sort of like how can we

rework it slightly.

So if we're not going to put it in like exactly the sequel series spot, where can we put a story of

Maul and you know and a young woman who becomes his apprentice for a time until you know she doesn't

because we know what is in the future for Maul.

But like what parallels can we build between the Anakin and Soka relationship and this

potential Maul and Devana relationship if this does work out that way.

I don't know again I have not seen past first two episodes.

So it's possible that Devana is just like no I want to stay good but I don't think that's what's

going to happen because that would be very boring.

And so like what potential parallels are there for him and like how can you know if he has all

this resentment and this is this is potential rich text for the acolyte as well a story that we're

not going to get to follow forward. But like given how angry he is at what happened to him,

but then he's using the tools of the person who like stole him and groomed him to you know

for just pass path forward. And again he is like tried to make this connection with Soka's,

tried to make this connection with Ezra. We've seen him like thirsting for with his brother like

seen seen him thirsting for another and another who will be loyal to him who will not abandon him

on a trash planet or anywhere else. But we'll just like be unquestionably loyal to him.

Will he find it in this young woman here or or is it forever not available to him you know in

this lifetime? I don't know. I love balls. Seaseless and either that is one of the fun things.

This is an area where I think knowing the future is actually really enriching for the character

because it's like he can't quit. He can't stop trying to center that relationship in his life and

sometimes it goes away because you know when he made his brother his apprentice Savage um Palpatine

killed him. And then basically left ball alive to like torment him. That that dual of

mall and Savage versus Palpatine in the same stretch of story where ball kills Satine like that

is just such an incredibly harrowing stretch of malls arc. The fact that he was weaned on the rule

of two and thinks about that kind of like master apprentice role as many sif but also of course

Jedi do as this like sacred thing a way to um submit yourself in that dynamic of path to power.

Certainly for mall it's always and I think most most of all in the Ezra stretch and rebels when he is

trying to woo Ezra slash Jabba to be his apprentice. Does he want to sif Hallicron? Yeah like is

there a very practical reason he's trying to do that? Yes. Is it all leading him to try to find

Kenobi? Yes. Does it go hardly wrong from yes. But does he also want to be chosen and worthy? Yeah.

And like the way in Twilight of the apprentice he is not only relishing in the prospect of Ezra

working with him and mall leading Ezra to the dark side and being a uh a figure whose true

delage can lead somebody to in a very disturbing way um tap into a deeper more fully realized sense

of self he's also like this guy. Cana Jarrah's pause I'm gonna go blind him and just remind everybody

of how superior you have been doing it. Hashtag but can we just like quickly go back and just say like

he killed Satine. Yeah. He blinded Cana Jarrah's um what else is on his resume that we want to talk about.

I mean those are pretty significant things. I think Qui-God would love to enter

the chat. What like to be involved perhaps. He's done a lot. There's also like the the role that

Crimson Dawn plays in the future in the in the rebellion like Crimson like his as he said Crimson

Dawn predates his control of it but his like wrangling of Crimson Dawn Crimson Dawn then becomes

integral to the rebellion as part of the larger sprawling story of how uh the the Death Star plans,

the second Death Star plans uh you know make their way um so like his you know his fingerprints

are consequently all over everything and again there's just like he's done so much

Qui-God being very important Satine being very important to you personally. Cana Jarrah's

being very very important to Freddie Prince Jr but like that. I love Janine. That there is no

coming back from that uh so instead it can only just be fun to watch him and also it's fun but

it's also emotionally compelling because he's so vulnerable. He's so wounded and he's so sad

that like for me that's just undeniably interesting to watch. Yeah I think it I obviously

normally would agree that there's no coming back from that. I think in Star Wars they're so

consistently is that that's where it feels more like the fact that we just know that's not going

to be the case for mall is more clarifying than what would feel like you're a thickly or more like

Anakin is responsible for like uh in his final hours like on the on the way out.

Ben Solo? A lot of like uh best murderers who get their moment in the sun.

But the sun and the sun's on the way out for sure on the way out. And Malt did get a very peaceful

embrace at the end so that's something. How is Janix working for you as a setting two episodes in?

This this new planet this kind of like hub of criminal syndicate activity mid-rime you've got your

city you've got your surrounding jungles you like a new planet uh sure um no I mean this it it's

way it's very coarse on coated you know you've got levels uh and you know there are some chases

inside of this that could take place on coarse on if you wanted them to but like um

I the setting the setting of the planet is less interesting to me than the tone of the world which is

they're doing a clear like noir sort of uh storyline um in that you've got this cat and mouse

uh game between loss and uh voiced by the incredible Wagner Moira amazing and and Malt you've got

moments in these two episodes where each of them sort of like stands in regards and image of the

other and just really is like who's that guy you know what's his deal very like Cyril Karn looking at

Cassian and or Hollow the B&E of Andor so um you know and and you get it on the soundtrack you get this

sort of like um you know bluesy noiry horn music for loss and as he sort of stalking around the

the streets it's very blade runner in that sense because it's like literally the way this sort of like

high-tech noir uh look of everything and then just sort of the way in which they have artistically

done it with like um hand painting over uh some things and them and um yeah the the mout work that

they've done on the backgrounds just gives it um a different energy than the other animated

series that we've seen and that is just like to put such an artistic stamp on something you

know because there's been a lot of critiques over the years of Star Wars animation and it's

and it's look for a lot of people they don't love how it looks and I'm I think sometimes it can

look amazing and sometimes I'm just sort of like this doesn't look that you know the way that like a

spiderverse movie or just sort of like I'm watching you know and so I think this is like not

in the realm of spiderverse necessarily but it's like inching in that direction where they're just

like trying to take some artistic liberties with uh the watercolor bleed of of the background

and all of that just makes it look to me like a rain soaked nori story and that's really exciting

to me so I love that it does look very wet and not just because everybody wants to fuck mall because

he's hot you know they're also for that reason um I love the the tracking evolution of the well and

obviously we have things like visions that are uh definitionally distinct because animation

studios are coming in to put their specific visual stamp on Star Wars but yeah to track the evolution

um you know even inside of Clone Wars and then from Clone Wars to Rebels and to Bad Badge and this

I agree really feels um simultaneously like it gives you that oh we're on a new planet okay could

it have been this other place familiarity but a really specific uh uh sense and like I think the

styling of the lightsaber so far are reflective of that that bleed yeah yes and like you because

you have you know uh malls double-bladed saber I loved getting to your loss and say

leisure sore like fun little moments like that across these two episodes but this is one of the most

iconic things in Star Wars and then to give it that um you know we've seen things that look like

this a little bit across the tails shorts or even that really kind of like angry crackle of Kylo

Ren's saber I was thinking about Kylo yeah and the way that it's like the you know when you think

about a bleeding kyber crystal and what that even is and what it tells you about the dark soul and

the power that the character who's wielding that saber has um willfully intentionally unlocked

to manifest that visually in this animation with like the the paint style but yeah the sense that

the the evil is bleeding out it can't be contained looks so cool and you know I love the kind of like

Vader Rogue One-esque dark hallway entrance against the pipes the second episode like

always later this the internet is calling it like the movie fight no but like um his entrance

oh my um in that first episode I think that's one of the coolest entrances like murder cloak

saber out you know dismounting of the spaceship um I saw some like visual comps

uh around the internet of like comparing it to like Obi-Wan on mr Farron and in the way that it is

like a face on sort of like descending of the stairs like I can see the comp to me and I and I

went back and rewashed it this is like so Kylo and the Force Awakens coded for me and that's just

like another all-timer uh entrance of a character and so um I I I was like this is what he deserves

this he's worthy of this this is like a really sick entrance and he and I deserve it and San

went we're to serve it so I really agree you both deserve it you do uh do you think the fact that

everybody involved in the show keeps invoking heat is how we're gonna finally get CR

Chris Ryan himself to watch some Star Wars animation you think we can do it I just I

I love heat obviously um and I get it um I would just like to say this dynamic existed before

heat and he didn't invent it it might have codified it for a certain generation but like

I was talking to I was actually talking to Van and Rob about this the other day because like

I was talking about the Scarlet Pimpernell which is like one of my favorite stories

set during the French Revolution but that is like a cat and mouse sort of uh you know to

to opposing forces and circling each other sort of story and um you know there's there's plenty

of verses before that like but yeah I get why heat is it about like it matters to a lot of people

oh another another sort of like ancient kind of tale that we're really dealing with here is we're

dealing with this sort of like Shakespearean archetype of of the like wounded bastard who's been

who feels overlooked and abandoned if you want to talk about like much ado or lear or whatever

like this is a character that shows up again and again in Shakespeare I've just sort of like

I'm not the chosen one I have been cast out and abandoned and overlooked and I think I deserve

better I am better than the chosen one over there so like why did this happen to me and how can I

plot and plan and break everything down to have my vengeance and so I just love that yeah sure

we're dealing with heat yes we're also dealing with Shakespeare we're dealing with a lot of things

the part is always welcome will see our washes not in a million years not nothing will ever

do so yeah he's missing out he's missing out on the cat mouse front anything else about

loss in or that character set that you want to hit so Wagner Moore is so exciting to me because

I you know I love him in general but honestly the it wasn't Narcos the the thing that he did that

really really got me was puss and boots the last wish where he played the wolf slash death

and is genuinely one of the best animation voice performances I've ever experienced in my entire

life it was scary it was so good and so I was like really excited to see that he was the voice cast

here but Richard Ioate is like one of my favorite guys of all time he's already voiced a droid in

in edelora and like he's you know but he is built to voice droids and so I'm excited for him

because I know he's a star wars fan so I hope that he enjoyed doing this I just think he's so

funny he's one of the driest people alive this is just kind of how he talks all the time

and so to get paid by Lucas home to do it a great I love that for him but I'm like on a personal level

Richard Ioate I'm just like this is this is for the the anglophiles who who love him so here he is

my favorite droid in the show so far through the the two park maris spybot you're right he's elite

and iconic and hysterical and the way that he tells shit to everybody that he's trying to

best does he hacks into the systems is hysterical but of course the best moment was when he sort of

like floated over to mall who scratched him on the head like he was greeting his pet I just can't

wait for more spybot delightful but the design it's quite the design on spybot which is like one

one like that looks like and then the other eye looks like it's squinting and then his like

disc looks like a jauntie little hat yes and then he's just like so much attitude I'm a huge

fan of spybot and he does that he does that uh uh uh uh uh uh just the nendery from Jurassic Park uh uh

which like it's bybots a fan of Jurassic Park he's cool with me so yeah Jurassic Park and a wig watch

on a droid I mean it extremely joke bullshit yeah I am really enjoying the two boots uh energy

as well and I love just like I'm interested so far and how quickly through these two episodes we've

gotten to glimpse a lot of key loss in dynamics so like loss in in two boots as partners yet the

little moment like two boots bringing over the calf and loss is like it obviously guzzling

caffeine couldn't be us right and two boots is doing this just because it's part of the ritual

he's a droid he's not drink of the coffee but it's part of what they share but we see already the

seeds of uh uh uh uh uh disagreement between them because two boots uh more than once in this

episode is like shouldn't we call him the empire and loss is like hit pause on that when loss

in his talking to the chief he's like we don't need to bring the empire into this yet so he seems

and this is great shorthand for us to be uh suspicious of the empire to be anti-amparch and not

one the empire on Janice and that of course warms us to him well immediately yes and there's also

just like ways in which he is working outside the system of of the institution that he belongs to

right and so like again when it comes to a potential we're not so different you and I uh conversation

between loss and em all like these are some great early breadcrumbs for something like that yes yeah

also some complicated family dynamics for loss and so that's another parallel he has a son

Riley who seems to be playing uh space lacrosse they have said that this is called bodicant can't

wait to learn more we get the uniform we get the ball etc but they're um their moment

is just like loss and basically showing up apologizing for not being around promising to be

around more soon and take some time and then immediately failing to go back to work and this family

photo which is very Ezra coded this photo that is like following a character around in a

Star Wars animated story loss and has it on his desk Riley's looking at it the mob's not there so we

have more to learn there and then there are vibes with Rena soul this other crime figure and the fact

that we get not only the vibes between Rena and loss and like the illusion to whatever their shared

past is and some of this has transpired between them she is going to be connected not only to him on

personal level it seems but also has he goes to he's like what's the shadow collective have you

heard of it um he doesn't have you heard of it lad on the shadow collective but literally it's

like have you heard of it i have it can you fill me in a little bit here and she's got intel so

we got to see a lot actually about like who was in loss and's life and and what that looks like as he

attempts to find this person who's on an ISB must alert list uh the photo is that that photo

also struck me it's just like very noir quoted as well like um yeah so Rena soul uh as voiced by

the icon Pamela adlon her daughter Gideon adlon is the voice of Devon so this is like i love when

Star Wars does this where they're like get your mom and like it'll be great uh get an adlon's

really interesting because um i she was in this movie blockers which i love and i thought she was

so good in that and um i have just wanted more for her and i've been waiting for her to like

really burst on the scene so i'm not saying that like voicing a character where you don't get to

see the actresses face is really gonna do it but like i'm excited to see her in the mix because

there's like ways in which Devon like both was and wasn't super interesting to me in these first

two episodes so i'm just like excited to see where this goes because this is an actress that i

really like and so this there's potential here but like you have to start her from a place of like

no you're evil you know sort of thing and then and then we'll see where we go from there so well

let's so let's talk about the apprentice orchard and Devon for another minute or two here we have

dockie and Devon and they're used as useful government name i am gonna call him dockie because

it's an eco dockie is it a dockie is it a dockie uh no having Dennis Hayesburn at Star Wars is a thrill

it was a real treat and that was really good instantly like he said half a word and i was like

it's that Dennis Hayes yeah oh my god so that was fun i texted you when Charlie Bushnell

who voiced you daily uh who was in Percy Jackson i was like i know those weird

but he's a consonant anywhere i know i know this voice yeah it's a great it's really a great

cast and you know Chris deamin topel is we were just yeah referencing one of his most iconic

performances in Silicon Valley with this guy fucks so here he is again like just did really doing it

so far he has been a riot so far so far this i liked when he was like turn around to deemus

just so that he could look into his eyes as he killed him that was a dark shit that was really fun

um the the search for the apprentice mall can he's not just like okay i've stumbled upon you

and this seems promising it is we we are introduced to to dockie and devin we see that they are not

like totally in alignment right she's like we gotta eat bro yeah she's like i'm gonna steal some

fruit and he's like we can rely on the kind of substrangers she gets taken into custody

mall i've read street carnage desire it doesn't turn out well for blanche actually so i'm not gonna

do that exactly mall is talking to brook like the one i seek is here i see them the clearer the

closer i get something else our actions serve a greater purpose events are falling into place

she is a gen i shall fashion her into a weapon which can help us destroy all those who have

betrayed me including dark city as you didn't need to say it we knew but it was helpful that he

said it so he feels this like magnetic galactic pull to her and to power yeah she recognizes him

this is fascinating when he opens her um because she's like a cross in the cell across from barrio when

he looks in her open that door she's like mall hall yeah she's like hot the legend of mall and the

pole of mall um mall like in like the strange journey acolyte to think mall will take a bath or

can you do that with brook bot legs i'm not sure but like emerge from a pool uh you know just to dazzle

his apprentice uh it's entirely possible i you know the the backscar appreciation stretch of acolyte

felt very specific to our experience with manny but you know we we love to admire her all

so he does he loves a murder cloak and he hates the shirt and part of the reason he loves a

murder cloak is because it's uh helps to conceal his identity and part of it is because it's just a

real quick path to the open chest and really yes we got to respect them um this that you know the

the is this character of devon going to be the d'arth talon apprentice uh figure from uh

it elsewhere in in the legends and um this idea of calling her a weapon right for fashion her

into a weapon like a tal like this is my talon is my claw that i will use to sort of like scratch at

the emperor the empire think about like these great names like mall and savage and stuff like that

i just like i'm excited devon cannot stay devon is like is a i think a very bad star wars name and i

would like uh enough grade for this young woman devon do you want it to be d'arth talon yeah i do

want to do talent i think talent i think talent is better than devon uh i i i i'm excited to see where

the devon stuff goes and i think like i agree with what you said earlier it seems unlikely to me

that she that the way this story goes is that she's like actually i i have the the stays where it

starts because you know we get this great line from mall which is part of the recruitment pitch to

devon but is also sort of like the mission statement for not only why you do a mall show but why

philonia cow are so interested in continuing to explore more mall in the first place you're operating

under the premise that i'm somehow the villain here but it is not as simple as good and evil evil

the way that sam said evil i couldn't even put hope with a thousand tries to get even close to how he

how much saucy put on evil it was wonderful so he's like i can show you a pathway to the power of

the jet i didn't teach you but he's also like i'm not exactly who or what you think i am and part of

the way he frames that is everyone's bad on all sides right so the idea that devon starts by saying

i have this assumption of you and ends there seems very flat and uh stagnant and unlikely and especially

because not only are we meeting her and and docky on the run but she is still with her former master

moving away from the old and into the new and making that such an active choice like yeah she's on

the run and in a parallel circumstance but she does have somebody the closest somebody and if this

if the way this goes is that she has to choose doc uh mall over docky that would be really interesting

and that would be devastating or maybe he's not going to make it and then in that even more

desperate straight that's when she goes to mall i mean who knows but then like the question is how

if they do end up as master in apprentice how long does that last or is this another just

does the failure for mall come immediately or eventually is the question right like does he fail to

actually win dev into his cause or i think i think he's got a winner and loser and then

someone Vader who knows kills her like so it's going to be more of the mall savage

yeah mold there where he made his brother his apprentice and then Palpazine killed his brother

and that was pretty rough and that's interesting so he knows lost savage and mother talsen his brother

his mother really recently in the canon so he's like in even for mall of very raw and wounded place where

he has kind of like reconnected to the actual family that he was stolen away from and then lost them too

there's this line he has right uh induction aids since you were a child and it's just sort of like

he's just talking about himself which is you know we love we love a villain who projects i mean i'm not

rooting for like a young woman character to show up be lured to the dark side and then died to

motivate a male character for his ongoing vengeance that's not my fav obviously but like

i mean is she gonna like be lured to the dark side and then make a different choice and turn

a different direction maybe i don't know uh that could be maybe a little bit more interesting i

would like to go back on my she's gonna die uh i never i never root for that so i'm gonna change

how many things she'll be around for me later changing my bed i'm gonna change the different choice

later um is there anything else about either mall's history as an apprentice with Palpazine and then

discarded apprentice or his pursuit of his own apprentice savage etc uh savage in the past as

are in the future that you you want to note here in terms of how we should be thinking about

mall and devon or have we covered it all i just think you know it's always seduction with him and um

again with love and respect to like ike dea doki like who's you know i'm gonna say it all i

i admire it i mean that's a great star wars name it's not in sucks as a star wars name so i'm

gonna respect the uh effort but if if uh if eco dea doki is just sort of like

crowding around with a bit of pipe that is definitely also a lightsaber you know what i mean like

that's yeah that's not and then you're like the other alternative is this hot bear chested um

horny guy yeah also croning around with a pipe but in a different way am i right i don't

say i wouldn't say he's crowding but he's dragging around some serious pipe and that's uh

oh god it doesn't work down there cybernetic i guess metal yeah yeah so like it's all like done

yeah does it like articulated what did his mom do for him down there you know i it's a great question

when mother talton used her final burst of power before eventually being killed by grievous to say

gonna restore your body and also your mind did she think about his dick did what he'd be able to do

that i'd like to think you know as a mother should i'd like to think that she gave him like a

significant piece of pipe that can move she wanted articulated her son to have a rich and full life

you know so there's that and to get revenge on palpathy and not sure if that's come off before

if she didn't and he's like smooth like a kennel down there then like that might explain some of his

ongoing frustrations in life as well i mean he's gone through a few different

bottom halves over the years so he's not like bound to one forever he switches it up you think

he ever goes back to the spider likes just for fun i think i seem like a blast

you know i'm like uh get to spice things up on a certain night he's like should he go full spider

i mean i'm baby yeah you know the syndicate is there any way the social break up from this episode is

not as talking about malls i'm like it is created by it seems like like okay cool

do you think that's what he meant when in Tucson he said to hope he want to tell me is it the

chosen one my guess i got is cybernetic powerful dick yeah could be well he will avenge us by the

enemies it's so bad god um mall and mandalore we've covered it a little bit in terms of you know

rook is the character and the other commandos who are here his history with obi one sateen it's a

shower we love the dark saber now and always i do as you know i really i still kind of can't get over

how that how that all went in mandal not over that yeah that's a that's a that's a deeply painful

dramatic thing for me to reflect on um dark saber and animation has been consistently create the

uh the the shadow collective um which lost it is trying to learn about and we're getting some kind

of helpful refresher exposition for people who are familiar with the canon inside of these two

episodes but i think one of the things that just worth highlighting on almost more conceptually

is that as collective indicates it is a collection of different factions so you have

mall with his night brothers right and we see like icarus and some other night brothers in the cast

here as well um scorn yes great name again this is your small scorn talent the observation on the name

for it's real it's making me think of Kevin really Kevin Lannister like really tyrant

David yeah Kevin it's a great note um but the the death watch alliance and things go badly

between mall and previsla as they tend to go badly between either of those two characters

and any other character the night also super commandos black sun pike the hot crimson dawn

eventually joining the fold um the way that he now has still like strands of that so

does everybody who enters the story know the legend more an impact of the shadow collective

know but our malls mandalorian commandos so with him yes are the night brothers still there

yes is he hunting down syndicate factions who have wronged him yes are the pikes are any back in the

story yes is crimson dawn uh a part of the mall story across the years yes so like the idea of okay

the one or kind of holy um the the ultimate the paragon the ideal the thing that he's chasing is

the apprentice let me surround myself with like half a dozen other groups who will say i've chosen

to follow you until i can get that other thing is such an interesting manifestation of malls

kind of desperate need to be um picked yeah a real pick me energy for mall and like i think that

his ability to sort of like whip up you know the mandalorians uh you know in their revolution

and all this sort of stuff like that is like he can command armies forces during the clone wars

a shadow collective emerged uniting much of the underworld imagine getting black son the pikes

and the mandalorian death watch to work together without killing one another someone did someone is

mall like he has this incredible ability but it's not enough he needs that sort of like one-on-one

connection you me you die for me like that's that's it because he's been alone and he will be alone

again you know so it's um you know when you when you're raised from a small child brainwashed by the

emperor turns out it's not a great mental mentally healthy place to be it's tough also it's like

it doesn't it's never sustainable it's this kind of like amazing testament to his capacity

i am the person who could unite all those factions and then a reminder i think it's like

it's not subtle but it is fitting that one of the the night brothers who's in the story near him

here is icarus like mall is just always flying too close to the sun and his wings are melting and

then he falls or he gets cut in half and falls um so like are all of those factions meant to be aligned

there's a reason that he has to read through in this premiere here the list of characters who have

betrayed him there's a certain aspect of it where it's like you allow that many people to be in a

position to betray you as the empire has risen we've all been made to suffer even the once mighty

Jedi have fallen but there are many who have prospered from my misfortune the pikes crimson dawn

vario soon they will all pay starting with a demon he thought he could take what was mine you bring

people close you make an arrangement we learn about a truce in this episode and then like you get

to the point where those guys are sitting at the table basically eating like chicken parm looked

like and they're like it was probably mall huh delicious intergalactic chicken parm oh man

i don't want to know what those chickens look like um and and the way in which his vengeance on

the crime say you said to get once again aligns him with loss and who wants to clean the crime

syndicate out of the city so like you know how what and what ways can they work together and you know

but i love how lost and this is character who's like a laser sword and what is that what's a Jedi like

i know okay how how sheltered is this uh you know gum shoe here so yeah that's that is one of the

things i'm interested in about jenix is a place and lost as a figure like how distinct as he from

the other people because like rena and what she knows is that like just because she's in that world

and has access information are we supposed to be gleaning from that that like this information has

it reached this place because it is um outside of the flow of events that have like define the

stretch of history or is lost in a little bit like oh i'm a little like out of the at the loop

out of the mix what's been going on exactly we know we can tell from the way he talks about the empire

that he knows enough about what the empire has quickly meant yeah to be very wary so uh yeah i'm

i'm interested to um to see how he kind of receives and processes what he learns over time and

what that does he's like guys i don't follow the news i was a little too busy being a bad dad

and probably fucking around with rena and a number of other sources uh what's going on

i i know two boots brings me all of the coffees yeah but i still have to take the time to drink them

you know yeah it does he's busy i yes um anything else that like mustache will maintain itself you

know what i mean so how thrilled were they to be able to just slap on a cat or be a ward nominee

at the war and the week's leading up and the month's leading up to this premiere great stuff um

anything we haven't hit Joe about these first two episodes about mall's history about the kind of

like core dynamics you know we have mall and his followers mall and his family uh mall and his

nemesis mall and the idea of the master and apprentice as these kind of core framings that have

defined the canon that we've already received and that is yet to come in the future but we have

also already received um it feels like we know a lot about how this guy thinks and operates and the

mistakes he tends to make and the make and the desires that drive him but also a lot to learn

yeah what he's going to do in these years according to say you know the way that's that sam talks

about it is he's like the mall we meet in clone wars is not the mall we meet in rebels is not the

mall you know like like that these are very different iterations in his view and that you know

and it's true like when he's yes abandoned on this planet or this planet like you know in his horns

grow unruly and so like that like we're we're in a different different territory but like the

the question that he likes to bring up in interviews when he's asked sort of like what are you

most interested in exploring he's like I have questions like uh why if he's so angry at the emperor

did mall never reveal his identity to the Jedi he's like he could have called them up he could have

gotten into a space phone booth and called it the Jedi and like it's palpatine by and he never ever

did so why did he never yeah mark on palpatine the man who is responsible for the death of his mother

and his brother and all these other you know and like abandoned him and humiliated him and all

this other stuff like that he knows and he could tell anyone and he didn't so why and so like is

that a is that a loyalty question is that like we're going to learn so much more about like what it

means to be loyal like you could be resentful but you have to stay loyal or or you know what's the

internet I don't know but that's that's a very interesting question I love that about sam that he's

just sort of like here's an inconsistency seemingly to me so how can we make we can tighten

like make this more watertight in terms of like who's the psychological profile of this character

so this decision seems incongruous with his other attitude so how can we make it feel true yeah

that's okay I I love I love that he's thinking about it that way and I'm eager to learn more about

the answer to like I feel like they're kind of I feel like it's likely there are a number of

reasons all of which feel like they are true to the spirit of law you know in the one hand I think

that's why the the really clear emphasis in these two episodes of like I am after Sidious

fuck the empire but also the Jedi not super sorry that they're gone and let me tell you Devon why

that was never where you should have been in the first place and why you don't understand your power

because you were indoctrinated by these losers balls words not mine um I don't think he wants the Jedi

to win and to be victorious there's that but it's also like he needs to be the one to win

it's it's some of it is like probably about how he thinks about the Jedi and some of it is about how

he thinks about himself like one of the little aspects of the the two-part premier that I really

enjoyed that that we haven't talked about yet actually was like I love that because Devon is

their prisoner and she says that and he's like I'm gonna make this a test but also an opportunity

if you think you're my prisoner that's disappointing because you can travel in your own mind yeah

if you want to leave go to happen to your power and like it's so it's I've the story beats in

the particulars are different but it was so reminiscent to me of how he um tried to corrupt and

woo Ezra by allowing by guiding Ezra to a place that suited ball but doing it in a way that was

like made Ezra think because it was actually happening I am gaining a deeper understanding of

my own ability whereas that understanding leading me if I stick with ball not to a good place but

I can show you things those squares will never show you exactly including this triangular

simple like Ron yeah and I will wear a shirt while I'm doing it think about it no just an offer

no notes um we have eight episodes left in season one four weeks are no no promises on on when

we'll be checking back in but I think our our hope is to check it around the finale we'll see we'll

see how the season unfolds and we'll see if uh you know maybe we can have a chat with someone

hmm full of spybot you're getting spybot into the studio brings spybot on house of

r what do you think spybot would say on house of r would he just immediately break all of the

equipment and take over Carlos's computer um what if we can get full spybot and rocky in the studio

at the same time for you talk about a crossover event my god they tuned to find out

all right we will be back in a couple days for buffy season four part two

correct and then we will be back next week to continue our Christopher Nolan rewatch

momentum is the plan after that we'll see keep the emails coming let us know what you're thinking

of mall shadow lord thank you to you Joanna the biggest mall animated mall fan in the world

I didn't even tell you I wore my animated obi one shirt because you know it's worth observing

here at the end I guess that you're great animated love and my great animated love are sworn rivals

what do you think that's real would be like my real great animated love is is the fox robin hood

so let's look at it twist it like that's established canon that's just a fact uh malls uh

your side piece yeah yeah you don't commit to mall no no no that's real I really thought you were

about to like quote shoresy on me no you don't dance slots you just take them down uh in case anyone

has not seen shoresy and is horrified that's uh that's a that's a quote women talking about men

and it's a quote just FYI uh okay thank you thank you to mall or abuse now and always can't wait

to see what he gets up to in the next few weeks thank you to Carlos Chiroboga

Scott Lee Jacob Cornette CT

our junior mgipowl and joe me a denner on the whole crew today that's our shadow collective

now amazing we will see you in a couple days for buffy season four part two bye

um