Playoff Preview, Awards Picks, and Tanking Fixes With Stan Van Gundy

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Regular season game playoffs, that's pretty hopeful.

We'll see how he looks in the spurs even 100%.

There ain't no margin of error in the Holacious Western Conference.

We're going to talk about all that with Stan Van Gundy.

Oh, Jay MacDane, who's came back to,

we're going to talk about which playoff races that are still in jeopardy are most interesting

to the great coach Stan Van Gundy.

West 345 East 5 to 10 remains a mess.

Portland Clippers, do you care?

Should you care?

Do they even care?

Yes, they do.

We'll talk about that.

Stan's going to reveal his awards choices.

He is one of the most independent thinking awards ballot voters in the whole league.

He went off the grid on a couple of choices last year in a good way.

He is not afraid to be against the consensus.

He's going to reveal his choices.

Dwayne Wade versus James Harden, that's been an ongoing debate.

We'll get into that.

And he's going to talk about Victor Wembe and Yamas defense from a coaching perspective.

We're going to get into all of that and more with the legend, Amazon's Stan Van Gundy.

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Welcome to the Zach Woe show.

We are entering the last two to three games of the regular season and look who's here.

The legend from Amazon Prime Video from just a bunch of teams in the NBA,

the great Stan Van Gundy.

How are you doing, sir?

I'm good.

And you know, you got the New York add on by appreciate for my as an Orlando person that you got

the Mickey Mouse shirt on to make me feel at home.

Yeah, you know, I'm not bitter Stan.

I'm not bitter about what happened at the worldwide leader.

I still like Disney.

I still I still go down to the theme parks.

I just want to get to discounts anymore.

I made good use of them back in the day.

So a lot of stuff still happening in the NBA, even as we get to the home stretch,

Victor Wombanyama apparently going to be okay.

You're okay.

Is she looks likely to play in one of the last two games to get awards consideration.

And thank God, because no one wants to tear up on their entire awards ballot in multiple categories.

At the end of the season, playoffs, you know, I'm you'll play.

I'm assuming and we'll see there's no margin for error in the West.

There's no margin for like a little setback in the West.

Cade Cunningham came back last night against the zombie bucks.

I thought he looked pretty good.

Jayden McDaniels came back for the Timberwolves.

That's like a sneaky important thing, particularly if you're looking at the third seed,

maybe Denver and like I got to go through full strength Minnesota, full strength San Antonio,

full strength Oklahoma City.

Some seeds have been clinched.

Oklahoma City's number one, San Antonio is number two.

Minnesota is number six.

Detroit is number one.

Atlanta had two chances to lock up a top six spot at home lost to the nicks lost to the calves.

Lots to do Stan.

Are you ready?

Are you ready for the playoffs?

Yeah, I can't wait.

I think it's going to be.

I think it's going to be great.

I think that, you know, the East is as wide open as I've ever seen a conference be.

I mean, I just I don't think that there's a first round series that could come up where

you're like, okay, that one's going to be an easy one.

I think any of those teams, because you're looking at Philly is now gotten healthy or

Lando has gotten healthy.

Miami, this is their been their pattern for what?

Five or six years.

Like play and team in the regular season and then they look like a totally different group

when the when the post season comes.

I just don't see anything easy there in the East.

And then the West, I mean, we see a collision course between Oklahoma City and Santa

Antonio, but I think Denver at full strength is can can be a threat to anybody.

I'm not sure it's as wide open as the East, but certainly at the top, we can see some excitement.

Uh, yeah, I would say the one acceptance of the Miami play and rule was last year where

they got historically steamrolled by Cleveland in the first round.

But you know, they have experience for whatever it's worth coming out of the play.

And so I will start by asking you this, there are three broad playoff races that are still

in fluxes.

We enter literally like the last days of the regular season.

Number one, the West 345 between Denver, who is currently 50, 2 and 28, the Lakers 50

and 29 are fourth.

The Rockets 50 and 29 are fifth.

That is still very much in play.

The way that Houston loses the tie breakers to both of those teams.

So it's going to be very, very hard for them to get up to three.

They're probably stuck in the four or five bracket.

So the questions then become, who do they play?

Does the Lakers get three or do Denver get three?

And who has home court if it's Lakers, Houston, who's the four seed because they're tied

right now?

The Nuggets have two games left against the Thunder and the Spurs.

That looks like a horrible gauntlet two, three weeks ago.

Now it's like you just don't know which version of which team you're actually going to get

given that they have now locked up their seeds.

If they go one in one in those two games and the Lakers go three and a and they finish

with the Warriors, the Suns and the Jazz.

So like not impossible even without Luca and Reads that they go three and a the Lakers

would actually get the third seed because they have the tie breaker against the Nuggets.

I think the Thunder have some incentive to keep the Nuggets snug and cozy in that third

seed.

So we'll see how that goes.

And so we have that race.

We have the East from five to 10, which is like Atlanta to Miami.

It's complete chaos.

Atlanta Toronto still have the upper hand for five, six and play in avoidance.

But Orlando is still there.

Philly as you mentioned full strength is still there.

Charlotte is like the team that nobody wants to play.

They just can't get out of the nine, ten game.

They still have a chance to.

They still have a chance to.

And if I'm bossed and I'm like, I would love Charlotte to stick in the nine, ten game

because then they can only get the eighth seed and we don't have to worry about them in

the first round.

So there's a lot of stick there.

And then if you care, Stan Portland Clippers for the eighth seed versus the ninth seed

in the West is going to come down to one head to head game likely between those two teams.

Whoever wins that game wins the tie break, wins the eighth seed gets two cracks at the playoffs

and gets the opportunity to be the seventh seed instead of the eighth seed if they win

their first crack.

Which of these three playoff races, West 3, 4, 5 East bottom half play in West is the

most interesting to you.

Well, I have the most interest in the Clippers in Portland because my brother is an assistant

in with the Clippers.

So on a personal level, that's the one I'm watching.

That the interesting one I think as just an NBA watcher is in the East because like I said

earlier, I think any of those teams in those spots from five on down can win in the first

round.

I don't think there's anybody.

I don't think Detroit or Boston who are going to be one and two more than likely.

I don't think they're looking at any of those teams as, you know, that's a walkover.

You're absolutely right.

I mean, since January the 22nd, Charlotte's been the best team in the East.

So, you know, like there's no reason to think they couldn't win a series.

So I think that's the real interesting one.

And then out West, this is just coming up and haven't done the game the other day.

I just want San Antonio and Denver at three.

So we get a full series of Yokec and Wimbledon Yama.

That game on Saturday was the best regular season game of the year.

And as fans, we deserve seven games of that series and we deserve it to go like four of

them to go to overtime.

I think the West 3, 4, 5 would be my answer only because the East could go so many different

directions that it breaks my brain.

And I'm like, just I'm reaching like just wake me up and tell me who's playing who in

the first round.

I think the Charlotte element is interesting.

Can Charlotte crack the 7-8 and put the 7-C to at least somewhat in play for them?

They have the fourth best point differential in the conference.

Not since January 22nd for the entire season.

They're probably number one since January, whatever date you mentioned.

But even for the season, they've now passed Cleveland.

They're like a legit, very good team.

And if I'm one of these, like I don't want any part of them in the first round.

So if I'm Boston, I'm at least like stay down there in 9-10 and we're cool with that.

I'm not sure who to trust among all these other teams.

It's like Philly's healthy again or Lando got it from Wagner and Anthony Black back.

People kind of forgot about Anthony Black.

He's super important to their team.

It's like the last stand for this version of the magic, I think.

So yeah, it's a mess.

3, 4, 5 in the West is.

I mean, I said this the other day.

If I'm Denver, I'm looking at Minnesota, San Antonio, Oklahoma City.

Given we know that Minnesota has a tendency to play up to their level of competition,

that they have beaten Denver in a seven game series.

Now we're two years removed from that.

So, you know, it's worth whatever you think it's worth, but they've played them generally

tough.

That's got to be like among the hardest potential roads to the finals in the history of the NBA.

So question one, Minnesota is locked into sixth.

Would you give them a realistic chance at an upset in that series or his Denver's offense

10 game winning streak?

You've just been so dominant in Minnesota, just been so kind of iffy for the last month

that you think that's an easier series now than it looked like it might have been a month

ago for Denver.

Yeah, I admit Denver a pretty heavy favorite, but certainly not impossible.

But the one like who you want to play out there is LA.

I mean, they're not going to have, there's no possible way they're going to have Reeves

and Donchitch for that entire first round series.

But honestly, I think it takes a miracle for LA to win in the first round of the playoffs.

We're talking about if those guys come back, there's no chance they're at full strength.

And look, I watched Denver just taking them apart even when they had everybody in the first

half of that game.

I mean, if I'm Denver, I probably, I fall into four and get the Lakers at five would not

upset me to be honest.

You know, now you have to play obviously OK, see in the second round, but here's the bottom

line.

You got to beat, you're going to have to beat Oklahoma City to get to where you want to go.

I don't care who you are.

So when you play him, to me, doesn't really matter.

If you fall to four, you might get the Lakers, you might get the Rockets either way that's,

you know, even putting the Lakers, the Lakers without their two best players in play, that's

a win for the Denver Nuggets.

I think they'd be heavier favorites over the Rockets.

So the Rockets have been hot in the last two or three weeks.

They seem to have found their Mojo again.

Then they would over the Timberwolves.

I posited that to build the other day.

Would you would you try to slide to four if you're Denver?

It's hard because you have the tie break over Houston and you have a now a game edge over

the Lakers.

But and he said he would wait.

He would just try to avoid Oklahoma City as long as possible.

I don't know what the right answer is.

There's no right answer in the West.

It's just I just am very interested to see where it falls.

Yeah, I think when you try to manipulate that stuff, you're sending the wrong message to

your team.

I mean, no matter how you try to put it, you anytime you as a coach with a very good team,

a title contending team that you look like you're scared of certain people.

That's not a good message to your team.

And I don't think that's how David Adelman will approach it.

I think Denver, not that you've got the best player in the world.

You're healthy.

You're coming together.

I think they're in bring it on mode.

Let's just get healthy and get ready to go.

And I like that.

I think trying to manipulate your playoff matchup doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Like you're going to have to win.

If you want to win a championship, you got to win four series and you don't get to pick

your opponents along the way.

Get ready.

Play as well as you can and let's go.

Yeah, the only guy they're missing right now in their key rotation is Peyton Watson.

And I do think he's a big deal for them, particularly in an Oklahoma city matchup at some point

whenever that would be or the San Antonio with all their guards.

He guards ball handling.

Yeah, no players really well.

And I think this is their problem, right?

Zach, I mean, and he's other than Aaron Gordon, he's their next best defender.

And so even when we had that overtime game the other day, you know, with San Antonio,

it's like, you know, you get a time out in a defensive possession.

You know Peyton Watson would have been in the game in that situation and they don't have

him.

So I agree with you that he's a that he's a big loss.

You know, I think the I don't think I think the four or five series will be a good series.

And I think that might be the only real competitive series out west.

Well, any series, the only I think the Laker series will be a walk over because I just don't

think those guys are going to be healthy.

And then I think the I think Oklahoma City and San Antonio will roll over any of the playoff

teams.

So I think whoever the non Laker series is could be competitive.

And other than that, I don't think we're going to have great first round series.

But I think the second round is going to be buckle up phenomenal.

But now, yeah, the Watson piece is interesting because I'm very curious to see how much Denver

plays Watson and Gordon together, maybe even with Cam Johnson, who's playing really well

right now.

I mean, he had some of the best defensive plays of his life in that game you did against

the Spurs.

Not and the offense has been coming along too.

Just to see if they can find the right offense defense balance because they have the number

one offense in the NBA by a mile now.

They have the second most efficient offense in the history of the NBA.

Now that's a little bit misleading when you go by like how much higher they are than league

average.

They're like 15th in the history of the NBA still an incredible offense.

If they're defense can just be like competent and on the string, they get very, very scary.

I did want to ask you looking ahead if there is a San Antonio Denver matchup at any point.

You were at that game, game of the year.

Did you learn anything like X's and O's wise from that game that you would take that is

like going to be embedded in your brain, a tactic, one of the teams tried or a lineup

or a wrinkle that you saw that's just going to be in your head if they play again.

Well, the one thing that stood out there was obvious.

David Atelman didn't have a lot of choices in that game.

He didn't have Peyton Watson in that game.

He didn't even have Zeke Najee, but he tried to go small against San Antonio and he learned

quickly.

You cannot go small against Wimbledon Yama.

That's just a whole that's a whole nother level that will not work against Wimbledon.

I think that's not only for Denver, but for everybody.

You're not going small against them.

I thought he mixed in some zone, which was interesting because he played Aaron Gordon

in the middle of it and Yokech on the wing.

I thought they had limited success, but at least we're able to change the tempo.

I think David's searching defensively because you made the point.

If their defense can even be competent, I don't know if they can.

We've seen it all year.

Now, the only thing I'll say is if you go all the way back to the start of the year,

they were a top five defense when they came out of the gate with everybody healthy.

Maybe they can and I agree with you.

If they can, that roster is great.

To me, they're on three equal level with Oklahoma City and San Antonio.

If they get Watson back and everybody's playing, I just think that's probably the three

best teams in the league right there, the three teams out west.

Agreed.

I came into the season like on paper.

I was high on this first, but did not expect this.

I said on paper, Denver, Oklahoma City is the de facto NBA finals and now obviously San

Antonio has but it's way towards the top of that conversation.

The Denver defense saying you're dead on the first 15 games of the season.

They had a little bit of shooting luck.

Like teams were a little cold from three, but I test was like, wow, they came out of the

gate, super connected.

Everybody was on a string.

There were no like two guys rotating to one guy.

Being laid on a rotation, people shrugging their shoulders.

And I was like, man, they're coming out like they're ready for the playoffs to start now.

And the last two months, people have been shrugging their shoulders pointing at each other.

Like, wait, I thought you were going to be there.

Well, we're supposed to switch that.

Like, I don't know where those first 20 games went.

If it's just the injuries that sort of disrupted their continuity, whatever.

But if that team is anywhere still in this team, they are on par with anybody in the, I mean,

on par, not like punchers chance.

There'd be underdogs on par with anybody in the NBA and Oklahoma City in San Antonio.

The one wrinkle I thought was interesting was, you know, when Beniyama, you just don't

know what to do with him as a coach game planning your offense.

You don't know whether is it better if he's in the action out of the action.

We can't really put him out of the action because it's just too big and too fast.

The one thing I thought Denver seemed to do more of than usual, even for them, was run

inverted pick and rolls with Yoke, as the ball handler.

When when Beniyama was on him to just try to be like, here's one, you're in the pick and

roll, but you're not doing your normal thing in the pick and roll.

You're defending a ball handler.

Let's see how that looks.

I thought that kind of worked for them.

I thought it worked well.

It doesn't matter.

In fact, I didn't think they ran it enough.

To me, that should be a staple when they play them because it's the only way.

Screening him up there is the only way you at least temporarily take him out of the possession

defensively with that screen, just at least for a second because I don't think we've

ever had a guy in this league who is as impactful defensively.

We've had rim protectors, but this guy's more than a rim protector.

He gets out and blocks three point shots.

The ground he covers and there were, Yoke, he had 13 assists in that game, I think.

There were at least another four or five times that you saw it where he made a great pass

on a back cut and then there was Wimbledon Yama.

The guy doesn't even try to shoot it.

Those are normally layups for Denver and you don't get to do it.

He changes the entire game.

I agree with you on the inverted pick and roll.

Yoke, of course, one of the few guys you can do that with.

Now, what Sin Antonio went to a lot in that game is they played Keldin Johnson on Yoke

Ketch to keep Wimbledon Yama.

They want Wimbledon Yama to be able to play off the ball and roam as much as they possibly

can.

They were planning on Christian Brown, who's been the guy who hasn't shot the ball as

well that we did in that game.

It was like, if you remember that game, which I know you do, it was corner three point

shooting practice for Christian Brown.

They literally didn't guard him.

He did a good job.

He knocked him down.

They're certainly going to beat that chess match.

Same thing with the other in.

They tried to play Aaron Gordon on Wimbledon Yama and have Yoke Ketch, guard guy.

Everybody's trying to manipulate the matchups as they will in the playoffs.

It was a playoff type game.

The stars all played.

Yeah, and that was NBA.

I'm getting excited just thinking about that game again.

Big questions for Stan Van Gundy.

Well, dude, this big question number one touches on what we just talked about.

I asked you this in preparation.

Who was the toughest defender to game plan against when you were a head coach?

The one guy who was like, he disrupts a lot of what we do.

We have to think differently playing him.

And is there any comparison between that person or those people and how you imagine it would

be to coach against Victor Wimbledon Yama?

I mean, the guy for me was probably go bare because he just shut down the paint.

And we were always a team that wanted to try to attack the paint first and then throw

the ball out and shoot threes.

And because of go bare, the rest of the team didn't really have to suck in against you.

So it was hard to score out the rim.

And it was also they could take away you spray in the ball out, but still no comparison

to Wimbledon Yama because go bare couldn't get out to the perimeter of the way Wimbledon Yama

can.

I mean, to watch Wimbledon Yama be in the paint and close out on a guy in block of three,

I mean, it's like, what are we doing here?

I mean, he can guard the shooting fives.

Whereas go bare, we didn't have it that time shooting fives, but go bare can't.

I mean, you can gain an advantage on them.

You can't do it with Wimbledon Yama.

And if they have to, late in games, Wimbledon Yama can switch out and guard a guard.

I mean, it's just I've never seen anything like him.

He's so far from a rim protector.

The other guy that for me gave us a lot of trouble and was disruptive was a perimeter guy

was Ron R. Test before he became MetaWorld Peace because especially when I was in Orlando,

we ran a lot of stuff through Hito Turkalu and he was the one guy who could really get

into Turkalu and disrupt him a little bit on his ball handling with his size and strength

and length.

He would be the other guy.

What a great mid 2000s callback, Hito Turkalu versus Ron R. Test.

That just reminds me of young me in a shavvy New York City apartment watching League Pass

on a bad television like Breaking Down, Taken Notes.

What a great time.

Big question with Stan Van Gundy number two.

Rapid fire through your individual awards ballot, which is done.

And I don't know if you know this, but somebody actually did a study last year of the voters

who were, I would say most courageous about Bucking consensus.

And you were at the top of the list of Bucking consensus.

You are not afraid to go not off the board, but like everybody thinks this, I think this

and I don't care if it's a little bit different.

Were you aware of that by the way?

I was not at all.

I will say this.

I don't want to pat myself on the back, but even when I was coaching Zeth, I spend a lot

of time on this because I think it's important to players.

And so I think as voters, it shouldn't be just off the top of your head.

I think you need to sit down.

You need to watch a lot of games.

You need to look at all the numbers and you need to give it a lot of thought.

I think we all as voters owe that to the players.

So I think this is of the years I've been voting for these.

I think it was the hardest.

I mean, I think a lot of these are really, really close.

The only easy one to me is defensive player of the year.

That one's easy.

I mean, I don't know how you vote for anybody other than Wimbledon Yammer.

I think there's other great defenders in the league.

There's guys I really like, but I don't know how you vote for anybody else on defensive

player of the year if he gets his 65 games, which he should.

But every other award to me was very, very difficult.

Yeah, we can skip that one.

I said the other day, if he actually can't play in a 65 game, I think this might be the

one that would be unprecedented going from potential.

And I think should be unanimous winner to, oh my God, who are we voting for?

Like what?

Who are the other candidates?

Okay, rapid fire.

Stan Van Gundy's MVP for the 2025, 2026 NBA season.

Same guy for every year.

I've been voted for a yoke.

I respect it.

Give me the case for yoke over Shay because I have Shay and obviously look all four of these

guys at the top are unimpeachable.

Historical like you can't fault any of them really.

They can nitpick some Luca defense early in the season, winding to the refs, Wembe's minutes.

The top two, Yoke, Yoke defense and turnovers.

I think you can nitpick, but give me the case for him over Shay.

Well, first of all, I think Yoke, Yoke, his defense is underrated.

I think that that knock should have gone out five years ago.

He's not win, but Yama.

He's not Rudy.

Go bare.

He's a solid defender.

I mean, you watch him in pick and roll defense, people going at him.

That's not going to go and you're certainly not going at him one on one.

He's smart.

His communication is excellent.

I don't think he's an all defense guy.

But you don't think you don't think that slipped at all, put both knee injury.

I really don't.

And as I was just going to say, I think I would put him on the same level defensively as I

would put Shay on.

I think Shay is good.

I think Shay's good off the ball.

Shay never has to guard a high level score, not because I'm not even saying he couldn't,

but they've got Lou Dork.

They've got Casey Wallace.

They've got Jaylen Williams.

He's just never in that matchup.

I put him on the same level.

I think it's super close.

I just think that what Yoke is done, first of all, to lead the league in rebounding

and assists both by healthy margins is it's ridiculous.

Those are two like he averages what, four more assists a game or three more assists a game

and then Shay, who's a point guard?

This is insane.

I think Yoke is to me, and it is.

It's a very thin difference.

Yoke is to me as the guy who lifts his teammates a little bit more is the one.

With all of the passing, everything runs through him.

I think Shay's a one-on-one guy.

I think Yoke is defensive.

Challenges are overrated.

I think Wimby's a hard one too.

Wimby's made the case for himself, which I respect, honestly.

I like it.

He's right.

He's so far ahead of everybody else at one end of the floor that he may be the guy that

deserves to get it.

The only reason I put Wimby back in the third spot is that team is so deep and they've

gotten production from so many guys.

I mean, I've gone through six men of the year.

I have three spurs in my top six for six men of the year.

This team's absurd step castles, great.

So that's the only reason I have Wimby.

The third is because of the people he's had around him.

The three spurs are Harper, Keldin Johnson, who's one of the favorites.

Are you throwing corned in there?

I am.

You look at what he's done on a permanent basis.

You look at the advanced stats on him and you look at how they won when Wimby Niyama

was out.

I mean, this guy is a starting level center.

So it's been one of the more interesting things about this season.

I think it tribute to the depth of some of the best teams and the adaptability of both

players and coaches.

Players who are ninth, eighth men in the NBA, a lot of them, particularly perimeter players

have more in their games and they often get to show.

All of these teams have been pretty successful when lost records with their best players

out.

Denver survived Yokech being out.

They went above 500.

Detroit survived.

Kade being out.

They went above 500.

You're talking about the spurs, but it's interesting.

I've made the case for Shay before.

I love Yokech.

I don't care who wins.

They're both incredible.

The argument against Shay is often the thunder win with defense and he's good.

But not great on that end.

I would just, I think he's better than just good, but I would also just continue to point

out.

The thunder have not proven for any sustainable period of time that they have a functional

NBA offense, a high level NBA offense without Shay.

121 points for under possessions with Shay, 110 without him.

And you mentioned all the guys that they have defensively.

I mean, it does, we do have to mention like Jalen Williams basically just didn't play

this season.

He missed three quarters of the season.

All their guys have been in and out of the lineup.

Caruso, they load managed throughout the entire season.

Like I think Shay did as much heavy lifting for a superstar as anybody in the league.

But again, like you just can't go wrong.

Yokech has made an incredible late push.

These are urgent games for Denver in a way that they are not for Oklahoma City.

I don't care.

It's a toss up.

I'm still going.

No, I'm with you on that.

If it goes to SGA, if it goes to Wimbledon, Yama, even if they get the waiver, which I hope

they don't, and it goes to Luca, I got no problem with any of those guys.

Why do you hope they don't?

I like, well, because I just think it opens up a key in a one.

Like if you're going to, if you're going to do it for him, then again, so Zach, when

I was coaching, I, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was,

a big stickler on time, show up one time.

And I had one guy.

I'm not going to get into names, say, I'm one minute late.

What's the big deal?

I said, okay, one minute.

It's not a big deal, then.

How about two?

No, it's not big.

I said, how about three?

And then you just keep going down the line and you say, okay, so where should we draw

the line?

And now the whole team was involved and they said, 10 o'clock.

I said, because somewhere you draw the line.

So if Luke amissing it by one game is not a big deal, then what about 63 games?

What about 62?

What about 61?

And the whole thing with his wife having the baby.

Come on.

If those were the only games he missed, fine.

Everybody's missed games for personal reasons.

So now I got somebody in the hospital.

I've got whatever we either have a line or we've done.

If we have a line which I personally like, then let's stick to it.

He didn't, he didn't make it.

Or there's some of those other games maybe he could have played and would have played

if they'd been at the end of the year to qualify.

I think it's good that we are prioritizing guys playing.

But here's what I would say on the 65 game thing.

I think everybody's missing the point.

It's not whether we should have the 65 game thing or not.

The real point is, why do we have so many guys who have to miss more than 20% of the season?

That to me is the problem that needs to be solved in the lead.

Why do we have so many guys who can't play 65 games?

It's not, I mean, you're missing still over 20% of the games.

If most people went to work and missed one day of work every week, which is 20% of your

work week,

we employ you the month.

So is that a schedule issue?

Is that a style of play issue?

Is a little bit of both?

Like as you think about this, what are the fixes or whatever that you think about?

Well, I'm way off the grid on this one because yes, I think the pace of the game has gone

up, which has made it harder.

And the way we have answered it as a league, most teams is as the demands of the game have

gone up.

We've decided what we need to do is work less in preparation.

Don't practice.

Don't do it.

It's not even, to me, it makes no sense.

I don't think our guys, we haven't conditioned guys to play an 82 game schedule.

I think it's why we're getting most of these soft tissue injuries.

I think they need to work more.

I just don't think that we've conditioned them well enough.

I think I'm totally on an island on this one, but I think it's been, we're not the sports

science people.

I think it's to cover their own asses because nobody is going to say, nobody's getting

in trouble losing a job or being questioned for working a guy too little.

Nobody is saying, you know what?

They don't play that guy enough minutes.

You know what?

They don't practice enough.

But if you're Tom Dibbito and you play guys big minutes and try to practice, that you'll

get criticized for if somebody gets hurt.

So if I'm a strength guy and I want a strength and conditioning guy and I want to keep my

job, well, shit, I know the way to do that.

This guy needs a day off.

He can't do this.

He can't do that.

I don't think it works.

I think our approach in the league at least at the very least needs examination.

Instead of this group think that what we need is more time off and to do less, nobody's

practicing.

I think it's a major problem.

And I think it's something that needs a lot of thought and truly open-minded people

who at least look at the possibility of maybe what we need to do is do more.

I will only say this before we take a break.

Number one, there are sports science people or sports science adjacent people on teams

who actually agree with you and their teams operate a little differently because they

agree with you.

Number two, we disagree a little bit on the Luca appeal, but that's a different story

for another day.

Let's take a quick break and Stan will run through the rest of his awards choices.

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Okay.

We did defense player of the MVP.

Rookie of the year coach.

This is a this is a tough.

It is tough.

It's really tough.

It's a two man race, obviously.

But I'll take flag.

I just think he does so much more.

I mean, this guy's taken on a huge role.

I mean, I know the team is bad, but he's the best player on the team.

He does it all.

He handles.

He creates shots.

He rebounds the ball.

Caniple has been able to just play to specific strengths.

He's better than people think he can make plays.

He can pass the ball.

His maturity is off the charts.

I love him, but I just think he's been in a situation where he's had people around

him who helped make the game easier for him.

I don't think that has been the case with flag.

This one's more the eye test to me.

I just think flags a far more versatile and a better player and at the defensive end of

the floor.

Caniple's better than people think he is defensively.

I'll give him that, but I don't think he's close to flag as a defender either.

I agree on the latter point.

I've been leaning con the entire season other than the mid season point where flag had

like a 49 point game against Conn and then a couple other huge scoring games.

I thought he was about to take it and then he got hurt and missed some games.

I think it's wide open again, 50-50.

I'm going to take it down to the wire.

Flag will be the better player long term.

Defensively I agree with you.

Conn actually has been hunted a little bit more in the last three or four weeks in some

of these games than previously.

He's done just okay.

He holds up better than I think people think, but also it's not like you get a minute

mismatch and you just stop you every time.

He's been a little more quiet offensively in the last month than before.

And flag is just carrying these mash unit lineups that like sometimes they have a point

guard and sometimes they don't.

Sometimes they have an NBA level starting center and sometimes they don't.

His floater game is outrageous.

His transition game is outrageous.

This is one to me that you can't really go wrong on as even as recently as 10 days ago

when flag had his first giant scoring game.

I was like settled down like it's still I think it's con for the season level body of work.

The advanced stats will all favor Conn because three point shooting just weighs so heavily

and he's in all time great three point shooter at least for a single season already.

They also favor winning teams in some cases so he's getting bumped up because the hornets

are good and the mavics are bad.

I'm going to save my final decision for next week, but I think it's wide open again in a way

that it was not.

Six man to the air who'd you go with?

This one was hard for me too.

It was really, really hard for me on my top three guys, but I'm going Keldin Johnson.

Now more for earlier in the year than later to be honest because they've leaned more on

Harper later, but I took Keldin Johnson over Jaime Hake's junior and reached Shepherd

and it was really hard for me.

I went back and forth on that for a long time.

I think those guys have all been really good, but I thought particularly early in the

year, San Antonio played their best basketball when Keldin Johnson came on the floor and I thought

he got him off to first half of the year and great start.

It was hard for me on those three guys.

I had Harper at number four and Nas read at number five and then Cornetta at number six.

But that was a real tough one for me.

I think the whole ballot is tough.

I think you have the right to the guys at one and two.

I think the people can debate the order.

I would probably lean slightly to word Keldin Johnson because of the three point shooting and

I also think he's a better defender than Jaime Hake's junior by a little bit as evidenced

by that they'll put him on big centers sometimes that he holds up fine.

You mentioned with the Oakridge, no one holds up fine against the Oakridge, but they do

that against normal centers allowing Wembee to roam around.

The third spot, I mean, I haven't even decided.

Why is Io de Sumnu not a member of this conversation?

Yeah, he was on my list.

He is a member of the conversation.

As was Cornetta for me.

I mean, yeah, those guys, there have been a lot of guys.

I'll tell you who hasn't been part of the conversation that entered my mind and entered

my mind on the most improved too is Mamou Kelleisch-Ville.

Mamou Kelleisch-Ville has been outstanding in Toronto and their offense thrives when

they're an offensively challenged team and his skill set has really helped them offensively.

There have been a lot of guys.

Obviously, had Fritzard been on the bench all year because his production hasn't changed

at all since he's gone to the bench.

He's having a career year.

He's averaged exactly 16.9 as a starter.

He's averaged 16.9 as a bench guy.

His shooting's even been a little better off the bench.

He probably went it again, but he's spent most of his years as a starter.

So I'll go with Kelleisch-Ville.

But there's probably seven or eight guys you could throw in there that I wouldn't argue

with you on.

Yeah, the big edge Hawkeyes has over Kelleisch-Ville.

Johnson is assists like five assists and five boards off the bench.

It's hard to do.

So you can make an argument for you then.

I would just lean slightly kelton, Johnson, but it's close.

I think the other-

Hawkeyes also has a sister who just won an NBA championship.

So you got to give him a point for that.

She should have been the most outstanding player in the final four for that too.

But I don't know that that helped timing's case.

I was so glad that you got to see the final game.

Yeah, you mentioned all the other inner circle guys.

I think other than maybe Tim Hardaway Jr. who deserves a look.

He's been fabulous.

And this is where I go back to the MVP.

Everybody has career years playing with Yokech.

Everybody.

Like Aaron Gordon, when he came, like, changed this whole game.

I mean, it's just, and you can be anything.

You can be a three-point shooter.

You can be a guy who works around the basket.

Like, it's going to fit with Yokech.

It's just going to fit because he's going to make you better.

So yeah, Tim Hardaway Jr.

should have been on that list also.

I should have mentioned him, especially since I've known Tim.

He since he was three years old.

I'm glad you mentioned Dylan Harper.

It's always awkward when there's like, is he a six-man or a seventh-man?

Like if Keldin Johnson is a six-man of the year, like, can you have this happen with

Joe Engels and Jordan Clarkson in Utah when they went one, two, in the voting a few years

ago?

But he's been unbelievable.

The two guys I think who would have been inner circle contenders had they played more games

in minutes, are Isaiah Stewart and AJ Mitchell.

They just have a minute.

No question on both of those guys.

No question.

AJ Mitchell probably would have been my number one, to be honest.

AJ Mitchell is, he's outstanding and he has.

He's been incredible.

And I think getting him back is probably what gives them in my mind, puts them right

back on top again over San Antonio and Denver.

I think he's that good.

All right.

Most improved player, I don't want to spend much any time on really.

Just say the name of your most improved player.

The Kiel Alexander Walker.

We agree.

Okay.

Big question number two for Stan Van Gundy.

Have you heard a tanking solution that you enjoy the most or is your favorite tanking

solution or are you a no solution?

Everything is actually fine.

This is an anomalous year and an anomalous draft guy.

Well, it's certainly not fine.

I don't like anything that incentivizes losing in any way.

And to me, it's simple, but it's the one they don't want to go to.

And I don't really understand it.

And I'm just, to me, it's easy.

You get rid of the draft.

It's the only thing that incentivizes losing.

And I've looked at all the solutions.

And number one, I applaud the league.

I applaud Adam Silver in the league.

They're trying.

They want to figure it out.

But I don't care if you flatten the odds or do it over two years or limit.

You can't be in the top four, two years in a row.

Great.

I'll be fifth the next year.

They're still an incentive to losing.

And the only way there's not is if you take the draft out.

There's absolutely no incentive to lose.

None.

I mean, you still might limit your salary cap to get in a frick.

But on a night to night basis, what you put out there, you're going to try to win.

And to me, it also gives us a chance to have parity in the league.

I had a three part solution.

Now, obviously, it has to be collectively barged in.

I would do three things.

Number one, take out the draft.

Number two, obviously, it goes with it.

Get rid of the rookie salary scale.

And third, get rid of the individual max for players.

So what does that do?

You take the rookie.

If somebody Cooper flag coming out, people are saying, well, the small market teams, the

only chance they have to get great players is the draft bullshit.

I'm not buying that.

Now Cooper flag comes out.

I'll give you six years at 50 million a year.

Well, I've got to have room under the salary cap to do it.

I can manage my salary cap.

I think it gives the rookies coming out some choice in terms of where they go.

I think it gives anybody a chance.

What the disadvantage is going to be, who's going to vote against it is the players'

association.

Because if there's no rookie salary cap, those kind of guys, AJ, the bands, they're going

to get big money.

And there's less money for the people in the middle.

So it's the same reason the individual max will never be voted out.

To me, it makes no sense.

To me, it makes no sense of an individual max.

Doesn't help the owners.

Like the salary caps, the salary cap.

Who it goes to doesn't matter.

Who it matters to is the majority of players in the league are not LeBron James Lucodonchich.

Nicola Yoke, Steph Curry, they want more of that money for themselves.

And certainly what would happen with no individual max, I think two things would happen.

The stars would spread out across the league.

Because right now, you can get two or three stars on a team.

Will the guy sacrifice a million or two a year to play on a better team?

Yeah, will he sacrifice 20 million a year?

No, he won't.

And so we would spread them out around the league.

But what we would have is we would have the stars and minimum level guys.

Because the people would pay the stars.

I don't have a problem with that.

Number one, we should be paying the people who people are paying to see and watch on TV.

Nobody's turning on a game.

And I don't mean this as a knock and I'm just throwing a name out there.

He's turning on that Denver San Antonio game the other night and saying,

and I can't wait to watch Cam Johnson.

They're turning on that game because it's Wimbanyama and Yokech.

So why shouldn't they make the money?

That's like saying, and now I'm making myself old here.

But the example I've used is saying, now there's a limit on what gladdest night can make.

Because we want more of the money to go to the Pips.

Like, no, that's not the way it works.

We don't limit Bruce Springsteen's money.

So more goes to the East Street band.

Like pay the stars, spread them out around the league.

This is my solution.

But the big one is get rid of the draft.

What possibly no other plan gets rid of the incentive to lose.

It may be Chris at a little, but it doesn't get rid of it.

You get rid of the draft.

What's your incentive to lose?

It's a bold proposal.

You're dead on about this.

So I have a bunch of tidbits from the GM call that happened the other day.

There is still a lot, there's unanimous support for something needs to change.

There is still some trepidation among people who would GM's who would say,

if we flatten the odds and to a point that good teams will move up more

and the worst teams will have less of a chance to get the number one and two picks.

You know, how are small markets going to get players?

And our bad teams going to be trapped in badness, in perpetuity.

And I think you're right to say, well, there's another level lever to pull.

And the lever is if the draft isn't as much of a fail safe for bad teams,

then make free agency more of a fail safe or more of an opportunity for bad teams.

Whether it's they get more cap space through x, y and z rolling over cap space,

eliminating restricted free agency so that the youngest players become unrestricted free agents.

Sooner, like those things are all interconnected.

The other thing I would say to the worry warts about, you know,

like someone I think of the GM call actually said something like,

well, what about the kings and the wizards or the kings and the pelicans?

And I'm like, well, the kings and the wizards have been picking into top 10 and the draft

for the majority of the last 20 years.

And they still stink.

So the draft as it is, the lottery has, it's been, isn't helping them

because they can't get out of their own goddamn way.

Do you want to hear some other tidbits from that meeting?

Sure.

The two years combined record has kind of gone out of favor.

That seems to be out.

There is, the flattened odds thing is the most popular proposal.

And it would include the play in teams with less,

with a little bit, there would be a little bit less but flattened odds,

a little bit worse but flattened odds.

There's still some momentum for, did you see the five by five proposal

where the teams are teased into groups of five?

And individual lottery has happened and a team can't fall,

the worst team can't fall below X.

There's still some support for that.

There's a lot of support for this came up a lot in the meeting

that the punishments when teams are caught tanking need to have more teeth to them.

And whether that's moving down in the draft or losing picks or something,

like I was a surprising amount of teams who are like,

that would make me a little nervous

because I'm not sure I want the league to be judge, jury, and executioner on,

you know, whether this player is heard.

I agree on that one.

That's too vague.

I mean, I love the idea of it,

but man, trying to decide what's tanking,

like do we just have the issue with Sacramento and that foul and set career?

Unbelievable.

You know, was that just a tactical mistake?

I don't know that I want the league deciding whether or not somebody just screwed up

or whether it was, whether it was tanking in the third quarter of a game.

I don't like that because I don't think you can set the rule.

And I don't think any of these things are foolproof.

Zach, I think they're good attempts,

but we've got one that is absolutely foolproof.

We've got one.

Get rid of the draft.

Here's another one.

So here's another one.

So all of these things are like, we got to fix it.

We got to do something to fix it now.

The term that came up a lot in the GM call from what I was told is sunset clause

or sunsetting them.

Like we put these things in now.

And if we decide they're a half measure, a bad idea,

have had unintended consequences.

We're going to write in whatever we collectively bargain with the union

that these can sunset after X amount of years.

And we can look at maybe other proposals,

including more dramatic proposals.

There was a proposal presented.

It's not novel, but it was the first time it's been presented in detail,

where you don't get rid of the draft entirely,

but you essentially get rid of the set draft order entirely.

And the proposal would work like this.

Every team gets, let's just say, 100 draft credits.

Okay?

And you bid your draft credits on every individual slot in the draft.

You can also trade your draft credits,

so I could trade a veteran player for 40 draft credits from another team

if I want to go in a rebuilding direction.

And as teams advance in the playoffs under this proposal,

they lose draft credits so that the best teams would have less to bid on individual picks.

And then you take whatever credits you want and you bid,

you can bid them all on the number one pick in this draft.

Or if you think that there's another good draft coming in two years,

you can roll your credits over in future years.

So you can kind of strategize and trade your credits.

It's like a market-based thing.

And then there wouldn't even be a lottery.

So like if I bid the most on the number one pick,

I bid all 300 credits I've accumulated.

I don't automatically win it.

I get put in a mini lottery with like the two or three or four highest bidders.

And if I lose the, I thought that was interesting.

And there seemed one interesting.

One GM actually told me I was surprised.

He was surprised by how many teams were like,

this is actually an idea worth thinking about.

Then there was one more idea attached to the,

attached to the flat and Dodds thing.

Like if we're going to do that, how about this?

The bottom three teams in the standings or the bottom four teams or two teams,

whatever it was, can't pick in the top one, two, three, four, X.

And the idea would be the worst teams have to keep trying

because they don't want to be disqualified from the number one pick.

And the teams just above them also have to keep trying

to beat those teams and head to head matchups because they want to keep them down

where they can't get the number one.

It's just a way there's a number of GMs who are like,

we have to not just make losing less profitable.

We have to make winning actually profitable.

And maybe this is one way to do it.

So these are the kind of ideas that are being kicked around.

And it's just going to be very interesting to see what this looks like in six, seven, eight years.

I think that's good.

And I think that people are thinking of, you know,

Mike Zaren came up years ago with the wheel where your draft choice would just be,

you know, every 30 years, basically, you'd get the first pick, the second pick,

all these different years.

It wouldn't have anything to do with your record.

I think there's a lot of good ideas with it.

And I do think they're trying.

And I think that's a good thing.

The other problem I have with the draft quite honestly is,

I just think it's unfair to rookies coming into the league.

They don't get any choice of where they play.

And their salary is slotted in.

They don't get to negotiate anything.

And when we make those rules, they're not part of the union that even gets to vote on.

I think it's very unfair labor practices quite honestly.

And I'm not for that.

I think let them come out and negotiate their own contract in an open,

market place and have some choice on where they go.

I mean, the kids coming out of law school,

don't get drafted by law firms and they have to go where they're told to go

and move to that city or anything else.

I mean, people have choice in all of these other professions.

I don't like it.

To me, it's, I like the fact that all these proposals are interesting.

I like the fact that they're trying to come up with an edge.

But to me, the only one that really takes care of what I think are all the important issues

is to just get rid of the draft and I honestly don't understand the opposition to that.

I'll let you just say your piece on that.

I mean, it's complicated.

I agree with you that it's unlikely to ever happen.

It is a thought exercise that to your point deserves, I think, more time and work than

it's gotten at the highest levels, maybe.

The Doug Christie thing, the King's Falling was unbelievable.

And it's only the Kings, only the Wizards.

And I'll just let you, you don't have to say anything.

It's only the Kings would have a def, only the King's defense would be our own stupidity.

Like that's like the only the Kings could have like, we're not tanking.

We just made a horrendous mistake.

And I know coaches lose track of time outs and fouls and they have to be reminded because

they have 9,000 things in their head.

You see the trainers run up at the end of every quarter, being like, we have a foul

together, we have no fouls to get.

It happens.

That was a weird one.

Okay, let's take a quick break.

Two more big questions for Stan Van Gogh, and we'll keep it quick.

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All right, two more coach.

We'll keep these quick.

I don't want to, I'm not going to have time to do the whole thing on this, but I thought

you'd be a good person to ask.

I think Paul Pierce started this on a podcast, no fouls given with Waz.

My belly big was a few weeks ago.

James Hardin versus Dwayne Wade.

Who had the better career?

I think Paul Pierce started it.

And then it just like exploded and became like a huge like, why are we debating this all

of a sudden right now?

You coached against both of them and you coached one of them.

Obviously, it's, it's an interesting like the shooting guard all time rankings are super

interesting behind Jordan.

Where did, where would you fall on this?

Well, obviously, I'm very biased.

So I've got to be upfront about that, but I'll take Dwayne.

I think that my argument for Dwayne would be defensive into the floor better than Hardin.

I think into the game, I've said, and I've gotten a lot of pushback and I understand my bias.

Into the game, there's no one in the history of the league I would rather have with the

ball late in the game.

Last shot of the game than Dwayne Wade.

I think his record, his winning, I think his commitment to winning.

I mean, he was willing to take the step back for LeBron to get a chance to win in a place

where he'd already won a championship.

And at the same time, he was the dominant force in winning a championship.

I'm not sure that anybody has ever had a better NBA finals than Dwayne Wade did in 2006.

He just absolutely took over.

So I would take Dwayne, and that's of no disrespect whatsoever to James Hardin.

And it's probably as much a due to my bias for Dwayne as anything, but I would take Dwayne.

So I did a deep dive yesterday for fun.

And I'm going to save the deep, deep dive.

I think this is a good bill topic too.

And I came into the exercise just like you.

Like just snap judgment, Dwayne Wade.

Playoffs, defense, championships versus Hardin's playoff record of underperformance.

And then, you know, I've heard the argument like, well, when you actually look into it,

it's pretty hard to make a case against James Hardin.

And that's actually true.

So let me just make the case and then I'll make the other case.

He has 6,000 more points.

Now the three point shot is going to skew this more and more and more as history goes

on.

The guys that played and the Dwayne Wade was not a three point shooter, although in the

playoffs, he suddenly became a much more viable one every year.

And so the raw totals are going to be just skewed toward the guys who took threes and

now took a lot of threes.

Dwayne Wade never won the MVP.

Has two top five finishes, third and fifth.

James Hardin has an MVP and has one, two, three, four, six top five finishes.

First, second, second, second, third and fifth.

They've made the same number of all NBA teams, eight, but James Hardin has six first team

appearances Dwayne Wade has two.

MVP vote totals, you know, you can read into whatever you want.

Dwayne obviously had some health issues and Hardin's been incredibly durable and so that

will also boost the longevity stats.

They do at least signify that for a pretty long period of time, James was considered

one of the three best or most valuable players in the league.

Like that has to mean something.

And then, you know, the scoring average is a little bit higher, the assists are higher,

et cetera.

And then you get to the playoffs and their stats are, they've played in almost the exact

same number of playoff games.

Wade played 172 Hardins at 173.

Their stats are very much more similar in the playoffs.

And just defensively, it's no competition.

Dwayne's a three time all defense player.

Finals MVP, as you said, one of the greatest final performances of all time.

They're all time great finals performance in a loss in 2011.

Three time champion.

I still think it's Dwayne.

I still, despite the statistical dossier and the MVP voting, I just think the playoffs

and the defense and the playoffs swing it so dramatically that I still think Dwayne

Wade has, I would pick his career over Hardins.

That's all.

Yeah, I would too, but again, you know, I think anybody would be pretty happy to have either

one of their careers in a lot of those arguments when we get to the all time great.

I will say to people, you pick, I'll happily take second pick.

Yeah, the shooting guard ones because Jordan is Jordan and Kobe is so beloved.

And you know, these players are, the shooting guards are like so different from each other.

Like Dwayne and James Hardin are similar in some respects is like bigger playmakers or

like whatever you want.

James is actually more of a point guard to me.

Yeah, more of a more of a playmaker point guard, but they're like similar size, similar

like physicality, totally different in some other ways, defensively three points.

You said, and then like Jerry West, I think is just chronically underrated in all of these

all time great discussions, including this one.

I would still take Dwayne Wade, but I'm going to save the deeper dive for another day.

Last big question with Stambe and Gundy, who is your finals pick in October?

And what would it be now if you could erase that pick from the record and just repick?

Well, I don't really remember.

I think I took Oklahoma City to win it.

I'm pretty sure I did that.

And I think I picked New York in the preseason to come out of the East.

Would I still take Oklahoma City in the West and to win it and in the East?

I don't know. I think I would take Boston right now, but I'm not really sure on that.

I think the team that people have been disappointed in it, forgotten in the East,

that to me can still win it is Cleveland.

You know, I think because their year has been a little bit disappointing, people have sort

of written them off.

And they might do a little bit of a reverse on us.

I think the last couple of years, people have, they've had great recorders

seasons and people have been disappointed on them and to play off.

I think they might flip that this year.

But if I had to pick, I'd take Boston.

So we unfortunately agree on all counts.

Preseason, I was Oklahoma City, New York.

And right now, if I had to redo it, I'd pick Oklahoma City over Boston.

New York is still, like, because still when the East, absolutely, I thought,

I thought they were game against Atlanta there.

It was important for them to finally, it's first like good win they've had in a long

time.

I thought it was interesting, just notable, something to flag, not for this matchup

for just in general.

The Hawks guarded Cat with their centers for almost the entire game.

And the Knicks ran the second and most Brunson Cat picking roles that they've run in any game

this season.

I think that's just, they have to just leverage that two-man game a little bit more when

it's handed to them that way.

And I completely agree, I don't agree on Cleveland.

I'm just fascinated by Cleveland.

I've watching every Cleveland game down the stretch start to finish.

Now, the Jared Allen is healthy, including last night, potential first round preview between

the Hawks and the Caves, because they just feel like a team that has said that the big

forest had so little time to play against, to play with each other.

And they still are like is Dwayne, Dwayne, Dwayne, Dwayne, Dwayne, Dwayne.

Is Dean Wade our fifth starter last night?

He was.

And then they close with Max Truce in that spot.

They've started Max Truce in that spot when Wade's not been available.

They'll throw Sam Merrill in that spot.

And they sort of like, they obviously are going to stagger, harden and Mitchell a lot.

They're going to stagger, and mobility, and Allen a lot.

It seems like they're trending in a direction where the staggering is becoming even more dramatic.

Like they play as many minutes separately as they do together, both pairings.

But some nights that's not going to be the right answer, some nights that is going to

be the right answer.

It feels like they're trying to find themselves on a lot of different levels, very late in

the game.

And that makes me a little bit like last night that Hawks Cads game.

I don't know if you saw that game, but like Donna Mitchell, bear was barely involved in

the offense in the first quarter.

And then in the third quarter, sharing the court with hard and to open the quarter, he

kind of came out and it looked like he had just said to himself, fuck it.

This is still my team.

I'm taking over the offense.

He went, James is on the court.

And he went, absolutely bananas.

And I was like, no, that's interesting.

Their size against Atlanta, if that's the matchup, is kind of interesting.

On the flip side, Atlanta's wing size against Cleveland's like army of guards is kind of

an interesting leverage point for the Hawks.

How the calves match up with the Hawks is interesting.

They put their centers on Dyson Daniels, like a lot of teams do and put wings on.

A lot of teams are doing that.

Yeah, New York did that some the other day too.

And they put their wings on a Kongoo.

And a Kongoo actually posted up a few times and punished like a hardened in the post and

Donna Mitchell in the post is a lot of interesting.

And Cleveland, they do feel like the forgotten team among these four.

And they're kind of a mystery to me.

And I don't know what to make of them.

Their ceiling is clear.

I would not pick them though.

I'm not confident enough that they figured themselves out enough that I would pick them

with ease.

I would pick them either.

They would be my fourth or fifth choice because I agree with you that Atlanta could beat

them in the first round.

Atlanta is good.

I mean, Atlanta is legit.

And you only got better.

They're good.

Jalen Johnson, you know, to me is an all NBA guy.

Yep.

I have him on my second team.

Does a little bit of everything.

The Kiel Alexander Walker said an unbelievable year.

And a Kongoo is an interesting guy because he's a great offensive rebounder who's now added

the three to his game.

Big time.

He's a little small, but yeah, they're an interesting team.

And what shocked me is not really shocked me, but their defense is legit.

No, I mean, they can guard.

I mean, that back court with Daniels and Walker, that's as good a defensive back court as

anybody including Oklahoma City and San Antonio can put on the floor.

It's been a really good story.

Their defense has been switchable and weird and hard to play against.

They have a lot of different player combinations.

They've been legit.

I agree, Jalen Johnson's all NBA.

I would pick Cleveland over them in the first round just because I think Cleveland has

more offensive talent, more, more like more easy answers on offense.

And I think Atlanta does, but Atlanta has proven like, their legit threat to win a first

round series.

Especially if that's the series that they get.

And interestingly last night that they benched Risa Shea, that's one thing they played

Kispert and Kamehka.

Kispert hadn't played the reviews game and Kamehka played a lot.

Just interesting to watch is they still try to find themselves.

But yeah, they're legit.

Quince Niders and a hell of a job sort of putting together a team that makes sense for a roster

that doesn't appear from like a 30,000 foot view to make a ton of sense.

And it does.

And he's done a great job.

All right, Stan, you're calling Nick Celtics tonight, right?

Absolutely.

You know, the Celtics have four of their starters.

Everybody, but Tatum listed as questionable.

So we'll see who shows up in that time of year.

That's a place tonight.

That's always when you do these games, that's always the catch a little bit, but Tatum's

going to play.

That'll be interesting.

Returning to the scene of his injury, he said that it's, he sort of feels weird about it.

And so I think to get it done before the playoffs is important.

You know, his return has just been, it's incredible.

I mean, I've seen guys go through it, not just to come back.

That was one thing.

But then to be at the level he's been at, particularly over the last six games, playing

35 minutes a game, average in 25 points and 11 rebounds and five and cis.

And I mean, he's just shooting the ball well in 10 months.

I mean, it's mind boggling.

And I think a lot of people deserve a lot of credit.

His trainer, the medical team and his motivation to get to where he's at because we've seen

him, right?

Guys come back off of those things.

It's not just how long it takes him to get back, but it's how long it takes him from

that point to be playing back at their former level.

And he's already done that.

Plus, he's just come in and fit in seamlessly like they have just rolled on.

I mean, with him in there, it hasn't looked at least bit clunky or anything else.

I mean, an amazing job by everyone involved there, all the players, Tatum, Joe Mizzula,

the medical staff, everybody, phenomenal, how this is all come to fruition.

It's the best story of the season and a reminder that the NBA always surprises you more than

you think it would be.

Think about Oklahoma City 24 and 1.

All of the discourse, a lot of discourse was the NBA is doomed for the next five years.

It's over.

They're going to get the clippers picked.

They're going to win 73 games.

Look how young they are.

It's just, oh my god, what are we going to do?

And now Oklahoma City might still win the title.

Like Oklahoma City fully healthy with this version of AJ Mitchell and Coruso unleashed and

all that, may just just roll in a way they didn't roll last year.

We'll see.

But even so, the next five years, I mean, I was always saying like things change faster

than you think.

Guys get hurt, guys get traded, the salary cap comes into play.

Next five years, now it's the spurs that everyone is terrified about.

Boston's back.

The NBA always surprised you in the best part of the season is coming up.

Stan Van Gundy, it's just been so awesome to listen to you where we're kind of teammates

on Amazon.

It's been so fun in that regard too.

Absolutely the best in the business.

Seize everything in real time.

Tell you what's going on.

Funny, entertaining.

It's wonderful to have you.

Now go do your actual job coach.

All right, thanks, Zach.

All right, that's it.

This week for the Zach Lowe show.

Thanks to the great Stan Van Gundy.

Thanks to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production.

As always, thanks to you all for listening to Andor watching the Zach Lowe show with

me.

I'll be back next week.

As usual, I'll be on Bill's podcast this Sunday night going into the playoffs.

We're going to talk about some of the most interesting players in the playoffs, the play

in whatever you want to talk about.

So that's all coming up.

Thanks again for listening and watching.

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