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Hello, media consumers.

Welcome to Press Box Thursday.

It's Brian Curtis.

It's Joel Anderson.

It's producers Isaiah Blakely and Bruce Baldwin.

Coming up on the Press Box, what did we think of the New York Times' big story

on how Donald Trump took the United States to war?

And what did we think of the New Yorker's big story on Sam Altman?

And what did we think of the story everybody's talking about in our text threads?

Mike Frabel and Diana Rousini.

Plus, ESPN's Mill Kuiper Jr. is going to join us to talk about the early days of covering

the NFL draft.

But Joel, I want to begin with two big hunks of quality journalism.

Okay.

Wow.

Hulks.

Hunk number one.

The New York Times' story, how Trump took the US to war with Iran

by Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman.

It landed on Tuesday while we were all waiting to see if Trump would end

Iranian civilization as we know it.

That's right.

Would you make it a piece?

I just a wave of like a really ugly nostalgia for the,

this the Maggie Haberman palace intrigue story.

I just felt like we haven't had one of those in a while, right?

We have it because they've been on Bookleave.

They've been on Bookleave.

And so yeah, just once again, I'm just like, oh yeah, we're back in a conference room

with Donald Trump.

And we're hearing almost exclusively from a bunch of people who would like to be like,

not really my fault.

You know, like that's that I feel like that's always sort of the angle or the Maggie

Haberman thing that dude is crazy.

He got convinced he pulled the wool over his eyes and we could not change his mind.

It was just a very familiar form of journalism.

And I'm glad that it's available to us that we have it to read because just again,

it provides some access to at least some version of events that most of us will never

wouldn't have otherwise.

But the thing I previously, I thought that this kind of reporting would change people's minds

about things. I thought it might move opinion polling.

I might affect what happened at the ballot box.

Maybe it will this year.

Maybe this is the year that that finally happens, but it has not happened so far.

So I'm just kind of interested to see how it resonates with people and how, you know,

yeah, like how these sort of revelations impact people.

What did you think?

Well, first off, I was amazed at all the journalistic flexing that went on in this piece.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because there's a lot of great information in here

about BB Netanyahu and the presentation he's making to Donald Trump.

Where people were sitting behind him and standing up.

So that was it.

Yeah. I mean, the seating chart flex.

Yeah.

We're not just inside the room with Donald Trump and his associates.

We're going to tell you where everyone's sitting.

I'll give you a little taste of it here if people have not read this story.

Yeah.

Susie Wiles, the White House Chief of Staff set at the far end of the table.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio has taken his regular seat.

And Secretary Pete Heggs, that the General Dan Cain, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

who generally sat together in such meetings, were on one side.

Joining them was John Radcliffe, the CIA director, and on and on.

And then here's the kicker.

The gathering had been kept deliberately small to guard against leaks.

I mean, again, this kind of happens in some version in every presidential administration.

Because there's just so many independent people, power hungry people, gossipy people,

whatever. And so like, there's always just going to be leaks because that's how

administrations work. But it's just funny.

Like Donald Trump don't have nobody close to him who feels obligated.

To like defend him in private.

You know what I mean?

Like you never, I just, what is the really good, man?

You know, really behind the scenes, Donald Trump, man, he's a lovely guy.

You know, like he's really smart, very thoughtful.

That's the, you never get that.

Or maybe I've just haven't read human events, the human events website lately,

a daily storm or something.

But other than that, I have not, I mean, it just feels like everybody around him is

gettable if you're a reporter.

It's like, you know, if you've got Maggie Haberman,

named Jonathan Swann's name, of course, like these people are gettable one way or another.

And that's the irony, right?

We hate the press.

The press is evil.

The press should not have the ability to have a workspace inside the Pentagon.

We will also tell the press exactly where we were sitting when we were making this

momentous decision to go to war.

Do you think Trump talks to them after something like that?

His relationship with Maggie Haberman is also really interesting, of course, right?

Fascinating.

It could be its own documentary or something.

I don't know.

He does not really go after every now and again, he looks call her dishonest to do the fake news

or whatever.

And I know that she's got access to him because he was a long time New York Times reporter.

And you know, he's Donald Trump has been a famous New York figure since the early 70s or whatever.

But that she continues to get away with this.

And that he's kind of, he's about as chill as he ever can be about this sort of stuff, right?

It's just fascinating that she's able to continue to do this,

but that is what makes her one of the most valuable reporters in the country.

Well, we can talk about this more when the book comes out this summer.

But I mean, it is Donald Trump's relationship with the press in microcosm.

Yeah.

Maggie Haberman, how dare you report the news,

Maggie Haberman and the newspaper.

And then I will also keep talking to you or people close to me will keep talking to you.

I mean, that's what it is.

I mean, to me, actually, the more the more interesting part of this particular story is the JD

Vance. Yeah.

Part of it.

Okay.

Because it sure seems like JD Vance or somebody very, very close to JD Vance

was trying to make sure that we all knew that he was opposed to Warren Iran.

He wasn't that first of all, he wasn't there.

Could get back a time to for this meeting.

So I'll do Bay John.

Yeah.

So I, so you know, sort of the the adult wasn't in the room that day.

So sort of about it.

And then yes, like, hey, I don't know what the hell is going on.

But he thought, you know, the JD Vance, JD Vance ain't one done to do it this shit, right?

Yeah.

So again, all these guys, all these folks are just gossips, man.

And they're all trying to preemptively try and protect their reputation.

And this is a great way to do it.

Like it is really like to to participate in the Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan,

Tik Tok or whatever is like a, you know, a way of like being able to ensure that, hey,

whatever anybody else says out there, this is this, I don't, I didn't have as much to do with this

as you thought I did.

But isn't JD Vance playing an incredibly dangerous game?

Yeah, well, I mean, because you know, Trump kind of called for other people to

lynch his previous vice president.

So who knows how it could go if he thinks of Vance as a, but I mean, be honest,

it's going to in badly one way or another.

Like this, I mean, that's not immediate criticism, but that is just, it ends badly for everyone

in the Trump world.

Everybody in Trump world, it leaves worse for it.

So he's next, but this is his way of trying to control the narrative, because at least right now,

legally, he can run for, he is the person in the White House who can legally assume the White House

in 2028. And so this is a good way to position that, right?

Just want to read two sentences here that are that are illustrate the point, I think.

One is what Dan Cain, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, thinks about Iran.

And one is what JD Vance thinks about Iran.

Okay, just listen to these two exercises in newswriting.

Okay.

At no point during the deliberations that the chairman directly tell the president that war with

Iran was a terrible idea, though some of general Cain's colleagues believe that was exactly what he thought.

Okay, so you see a little bit of distancing there, right?

Dan Cain's colleagues think that Dan Cain thought this was a bad idea, but he didn't communicate

that to the president or at least to communicate it directly.

Now here's a sentence about JD Vance.

The Vice President thought a regime change war with Iran would be a disaster.

Just listen to the different levels of certainty.

In those two sentences, you think about how this story was reported.

Why is JD Vance's intelligence, military intelligence so much better than massage?

What is he using that they don't have any access to?

That's just another question.

But anyway, my other reaction to the story was if you read it, and again, this piece lands

hours before the deadline that Donald Trump had set earlier this week, where he was going to bomb around

Iran, quote, back to the Stone Ages.

And so we're all kind of, you know, in this uncomfortable place, we're worried about the state of the

world. And here comes this reporting that tells us things that we did not know or tells it in

more detail than we knew before. I think though if you read this piece carefully, this piece is

probably the Trump administration's best possible case for going to war.

Here's what I mean. The piece begins with Netanyahu coming in and saying, not only will you be

able to kill the Ayatollah, not only will we be able to degrade Iran's ability to shoot missiles

into other countries, we will have an uprising in Iran if you attack. Well, we will have true regime

change in Iran. Trump, people that work for in the intelligence community were skeptical of those

latter two claims. But by the end of the piece, you have Donald Trump going to war and saying this,

and I'll read this here, I think we need to do it. The president told the room he said they had to

make sure Iran could not have a nuclear weapon. And they had to ensure that Iran could not just shoot

missiles at Israel or throughout the region. Oh, so those were the reasons the United States went

to war because if you listened to the president or read his true social post after the actual war

began, those were not the listed reasons. I mean, that reads to me like an after the fact, oh,

this is why we were going. These relatively modest goals, rather than the larger goals that we

projected to the world after the actual war began. Yeah, I guess that is an interesting way of looking

at it. I don't even, you know, I guess in a way they're saying washing him, you know, if you think

about it, right? Just goals are just goals washing. I mean, I think, you know, look, you know, if you

again, go back to the very first true social post when he when the when the attacks were launched

against Iran, there's this idea that, you know, the people would revolt and replace the regime.

Right. Now it's like, oh, no, no, this is why we were going. We just wanted to grade Iran's

missile capability and reign in their nuclear ambitions. Well, okay. I guess, you know, that's

true. And the piece does try to do a great job of doing that. But if you know anything about

the world, that's dumb because I mean, there's a reason that even like, you know, from Ronald Reagan

to first bush to second bush to Obama, while none of those people bombed Iran previously. Like,

there's a reason for that. There's there's well known throughout, like, you know,

the geopolitical sense that like, there's like, well, man, if you if you if you fuck with the

run, man, there's going to be a lot more that's going to come with it than what you think. That's

what the intelligence is for. Right. And so we're just supposed to believe that, okay, well, Netanyahu

who said, I've been wanting to do this for 40 years. He's set up, you know, set up a meeting with

you had you with your cabinet just minus JD Vance and convinced you of something that he's always

been trying to convince you of. So if there are if the piece is meant or if the people that talk to

Maggie Haberman and Jonathan swan, we're talking to him in hopes that it's supposed to make us

think, oh, well, you know, Trump actually had like some legitimate reasons for that. I hope that

people think about the context of that is not mentioned here, which is that they've always been

trying to do this. There's a reason that nobody has bound to run before. And so like, don't fall

for whatever the the the story of the line that they're pitching to the New York Times right now,

because that's not true. Ambitious hunk of journalism number two. Okay. It appeared in the New

Yorker. It was by Ronan Farrow and Andrew Baran's Ronan Farrow name. We hadn't heard in a while.

Another name hadn't heard in a while, man. It's just true. What kind of leave was he on? Maybe he

was working on this piece. Classic New Yorker headline tofer. The online headline was Sam

Altman made control our future. Can he be trusted? The more austere print headline was moment of truth.

What do you think of the piece? So a lot of people warned me that this was going to be terrifying to

that I was going to come to the end of this story and be like, man, we're in deep shit.

I was it by that score, I was underwhelmed. Like all of this seems about right. Like given what

we've known that's been previously reported about all these, you know, about Sam Altman and everybody

else in that orbit, it all seems to make sense. And it was just, you know, distilled and combined in

a way that it was like a very readable story, a profile of a person who, I mean, more than a

handful of people have called associate path publicly. So it just made sense to me. Like there

wasn't as much surprising in there as I thought. It was just a really grim read. Like I was like,

shit, man, you know, this is where bad shape and this is how we got here and, you know, things might

get worse as a result. So I felt that way about the piece that I just, I guess because people

that built it up so much that I was going to be scared and that I was going to be shocked at the

lack of the aim morality and the ranks of people that run open AI and that tech world. It was just

going to, it was going to move me. And I was just like, oh, no, this is exactly what I thought it

would look like. What about you? Like my level of fear was already there. Yeah, I was ready to

be bad. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Well, it's interesting. I think one way to think of this

piece is there's two claims that are nested within one another or two questions, maybe one question

is, is Sam Altman trustworthy enough to be the man who is the CEO of open AI and thus in control of

terrifying new technology? And it goes through claims from his business partners and associates

basically throughout his entire career. Yeah. I mean, going back to college, like, yeah, going

back to college. It's all these examples. Right. Is he trust, you know, he said this, but then he

did this. He professed an interest in safety. But when it came time to actually devote

X percentage of the company's budget to safety or to, you know, to take on this

safety initiative, he wasn't that interested in it over claim after claim after claim in that.

So that that is I think question number one, question number two, I saw emerge on Twitter afterwards

which said, okay, but to what degree is Sam Altman different than your average big tech CEO

of whom we have read about many lately. Yeah. Right. That that that sense of ambition, the questions

of trustworthiness, you know, of possessing a, you know, of of saying earlier in your career,

you know what, this technology is going to be for good. It's going to be for human good or we

need to orient the founding of this company around that principle. And then later saying, you know,

what we really want to do is make a ton of money to what degree is he different than everybody else

who works in Silicon Valley. Yeah. I mean, I thought see, I thought that as much as this was also

a profile in a way or a retelling of the story of the founding of open AI in Sam Altman's leadership

of it, I thought it was actually also very much as much of a look at the tech industry and

artificial intelligence branch of it as much as anything else. Like I thought that like Altman

was a way to tell a story about any of these people trustworthiness because you hear about so many

other, I mean, Elon Musk who gave him this, the seed money for why combinator or whatever and

to help build, you know, build this. And then he, he left because he felt like they were taking

advantage of money. But then they were like, Oh, wait, Microsoft Microsoft is getting a jump on

this. So we might need to help them in Google. They're, they're further along with, yeah, I'm like,

all these other people who start out with maybe not noble intentions, but at least like, you know,

admirable at, you know, it was like, Oh, well, you mean they might try to can't cure cancer as a part

of this, but they definitely want to make a lot of money, right? So I thought it was as much

a view of like the rot and the fraud and the aimerality of the very elite of Silicon Valley

and the artificial intelligence community is anything else like in the Sam Altman is a product of

that world. Like he's very much a creature of it. Like he, he got money from them. He built

relationships with them. If you believe this story, he slept with a lot of them and he hired them

and he's trying to replicate him. He's replicating himself in his businesses, but also like

inserting himself at the center of it. So yeah, he's, he's Silicon Valley. This is your Silicon Valley,

guys. That's what I thought of this piece. Another interesting element here was the piece

reminded me a little of Lawrence Wright writing about Scientology.

Oh, okay. In the sense that we're lots and lots of parenthetical denials.

You can tell that it was, you know, carefully put together in that way. There's this one paragraph

I'll read to you. This account of Altman's time at Y Combinators based on discussions with several YC

founders and partners in addition to contemporaneous materials, all of which indicate that the

parting was not entirely mutual. Building in a lot of safeguards to say, here's how we got

this information. Here is how Altman himself reacts to this particular charge and this other

particular charge. Just very, it was a very vetted piece of journalism. Give it all that. Are you

still surprised that he got that kind of access to him? Maybe a little bit, but I think there's

also this this period of AI right now where people are trying to explain themselves. Yeah,

they are trying to provide some kind of assurance that no, no, no, we are the right people

to possess this technology. We're the good guys. Did you leave thinking any of that?

I did not believe sure of that fact. No. Yeah. I think the piece does a really good job of

just raising the question of, you know, that again, that is, that is, and again, there's also a

lot of journalistic carping of, oh, we knew a lot of this and all that kind of stuff. I don't know,

I don't know how many times it seems to me there's a we can we can ask these questions in

lots of different ways, right? Because what more important question is there to ask right now

about technology? Oh, yeah. I mean, a general audience like you and I who have not read every

single piece about Sam Altman out there or even a huge percentage of them. I don't know. It's

very, very, very, very, very, very, very important. There are a lot of claims to weigh in this stuff,

man. And so, yeah, that have it all sort of put in one piece for us for people that are not,

you know, don't necessarily gravitate to tech journalism all the time. Yeah, I think it was a

valuable service. So, yeah, I'm sorry. Sometimes people have to do that. Like this is a New Yorker is

a general interest magazine. So, so they had to do it for people that have general interest. The

one thing, Brian, before we move on, I wish, I just wish those a little bit more reporting on like,

what they said, they're trying to do quote, beautiful things. Like, what is, what are they,

what kind of movement have they made on cancer research? You know, I mean, I didn't, I didn't hear any of

that. So, I am sort of curious about like, is it doing anything good at all? That's coming later.

That's going to be one of the beautiful, beautiful impacts on humanity. Yeah, the, the, the,

the money later, the money from the, the blood money, I mean, the, the gains from the blood money

will help to be fun. All the beautiful things to come. That's right. I want to talk about the story

that everyone and every sports writing text chain is talking about. Geno versus Don Staley.

That wasn't it. Okay. It was the story that appeared the New York Post on Tuesday, more specifically

in page six, which published photos of Mike Vrabel, the Patriots head coach, and Diana

Racini, the NFL insider at the athletic pictures were taken at a hotel or reportedly taken at a hotel

in Sedona, Arizona before the NFL meetings and Phoenix. The photos showed Vrabel and

Racini hanging out in the pool, locking hands, hugging or at least doing a hug like action.

And that's pretty much all the piece had, right? The post quoted some witnesses saying they didn't

see anyone with Vrabel and Racini, meaning friends, whereas Vrabel and Racini said the stories

that they had pals at the hotel. They just weren't in those particular pictures. Yeah. And the rest

of the piece was classic tabloid filler where you just sort of, you know, pulling pulling background

and, you know, paragraph after paragraph of stuff before you get to the Nenials at the end of

the story, which are worth reading here. This is from Mike Vrabel. These photos show a completely

innocent interaction and any suggestion otherwise is laughable. This doesn't deserve any further response.

Racini told the post, the photos don't represent the group of six people who were hanging out

during the day, like most journalists in the NFL reporters interact with sources away from stadiums

and other venues. Where do we start with this one?

Well, I'm trying to think about the best way to talk about this because I'm trying to be

responsible on this podcast. But, you know, we don't have any information other than those pictures.

Right. Now those pictures are weird because they're taking at an angle and they're taking in a

really private area and my tellgate co-host van who is a TMZ guy says, yo man, it's very hard to get

picks like that if somebody's not trying to catch you doing something. Right. So that lends the

level of suspicion to this that is weird. But my rejoinder to that is if it was Adam Schefter

and Sean McVeigh hanging out at a pool bar, you know, they hugged to greet each other and they're

sitting side by side at the pool talking shit. Like, would it would that be weird to people? I don't

I don't know. And so by insinuating that something weird is going on there and we don't know like I'm

trying again, like maybe call me a fool if you want, right. But we don't know that anything is

going on there. But, you know, by assuming that they are doing something untoward here, it really

denies women a chance to ever do the same sort of insider reporting that everybody else does. Be

at the bar late, you know, hanging out in somebody's hotel room, golfing together for, you know,

10 hours one day or something like anytime that a woman has to be alone and to think because of

what TV journalism is or shit just inside or whatever is putting women in situations where they're

trying to get into the same rooms that are mostly filled with men and anything they do, especially

if you catch a camera is going to look a little weird if you're the person that thinks that men and

women can't be professional or can't be friends, right. But I mean, I I know that there's more to this

than that. But that's kind of my top line thought. What do you think? Well, I would like to go to

your I'm glad you said that. And I want to go to your Shafter McVey hot tub scenario for just one

second. Yeah. Because I think that's the other part of this is there is just unbelievable discomfort

with insider. Yeah. We love the scoops. We gobble up the scoops like Easter jelly beans and talk about

them on our podcast. But then we feel uncomfortable with how insiders get scoops, right. And I'm not

talking about you know, people having a relationship here. I'm just talking about the journalistic

relationship part of it because we don't understand how all those scoops come about. We don't know how

they happen. And what what happens is you know, people break news and we say, Oh, you know,

you must be really, really good friends with that source. You must have that kind of relationship

with the source, not a romantic relationship, but just a kind of relationship where you're reporting

positive stories about coach X or player X, right, or one insider breaks the news about this player

and the other insider breaks the news about this player, this agent's players. And I just think

there's this huge discomfort with that world. Because in in, you know, in all of sports riding in

within sports riding too, by the way, you know, like when we talk about the people are always,

yeah. So, you know, would it be the same conversation if it was Adam Schaefter and Sean McVeigh?

Just by the way, that whole that that mental image is now stuck in my head. No,

certainly Sean McVeigh. No, because it wouldn't be the same conversation, but I think it would be

a different and related conversation. I'll put it that way. You do. Okay. I mean, I guess, you

know, and maybe you know, it would be a part of me if I'm using like antiquated analogies,

whatever. But I remember, and at least there's a trope in movies once one of time where guys would

get together, whether they worked in sports or you know, it might be a reporter that's trailing

somebody and they'd meet in the sauna. You know, somebody's got a towel over and they're sitting

in there in the steam room or the sauna and they're talking. And like again, if they're, if we're

going to have insiders, if we're going to have people that have to develop these relations,

to get people to trust them, to tell them sensitive information, they're going to have to do

kind of weird shit like and almost pretend to be friends, but sometimes they are friends, right?

And it's just like, all right, like I, if I were a woman, I could understand,

I would be very frustrated by this, not at Diana Rossini. I would be frustrated by the

implication that I just can't do the same shit that all the men do. And that only a certain kind

of man in a certain kind of class is going to ever be able to get into these rooms, these boardrooms,

the film rooms, wherever I have phone numbers, text relationships. And because if a woman does it,

there's always just going to be able to be like, how did you get that information, man? You know?

And so that's, I don't know, it's just, it's weird. And also it's just kind of weird, we just never

assumed these dudes again, you know what I mean? Like the, the, maybe they wouldn't want to

fuck each other too. I don't know. It's just, it's, I'm thrown back to the Olivia, Olivia

Newtse thing, where I'm just like, man, obviously there was a, it was a real breach of journalist

that ethics, she's not a trustworthy person, a trustworthy journalist. And all of that. And I was just

like, you know, man, but the dudes just totally get away with doing shit like, I mean, just because they

don't have sex all the time, you know what I mean? Just because they don't have sex or maybe they

do. I don't know. Like women just can never, women can never be in the room without it being

weird. And it's just sad. That's all. I also think when we talk about a story like this, we just

hit a wall because we just don't know very much. Yeah. Can I, can I say something kind of weird

about that too? Please. Thanks for giving me a person to get weird. I said this. Sorry. You need

to be, you need to be weird around this podcast. I feel you save it all for the other show. Oh no,

you know, they actually, they push me. They antagonize me. Um, I, I can't even tell what kind

of bathing suit Diana is wearing. And the reason I say this is because, and this is, again,

just I'm an observer. I'm trying to determine you, you're giving me some information and I'm trying

to make determinations, right? A full bathing suit. I'd be like, well, hey, we all have to pull.

You know what I'm saying? Like, that's if we're going to get into the high tub, I need swimwear. We

may have to wear a swimwear bikini. I might feel a little dirty like that might color my idea

of like what it looks like again, a woman can wear whatever she wants to wear. That's fine,

but it's just kind of like I can't even tell what kind of attire they have in this thing. So

anyway, yeah, I just feel like we're gazing at pictures and it's just like, you know, I, I,

again, I don't know what I don't know what to do. You get to, you get to the end of the pictures,

I read the article just like everybody else did and I'm like, okay, now what?

I mean, the only people who probably should feel some kind of way are their spouses, you know what I

mean? But the rest of us, we're just we're in it because it's funny. It's there's a lot of funny

tweets and it's drama and it's potentially sex or sex is a sinew aight. So that's why we care,

but like I don't, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't, none of none of the rest of us have to care

or like weigh any sort of judgment in this thing. All right, Joel, let's bring in our special guest

and I got a royal blue book here. Look at this baby. Oh, boy, who's on the cover? He Shuler.

Oh, man, former Republican congressman. He sure was. Was he, was he a Republican?

Yeah, man, I'm pretty sure. Hold on. Now I gotta look at that. Let me make sure. He Shuler,

that's no way. I thought he was a Democrat. Are you sure? Oh my God. You're right. He was a Democrat.

Former Democratic congressman. He Shuler. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. He's 1994.

Melkiper Blue book here's Pepsi prebiotic cola in original and cherry vanilla.

That Pepsi taste you love with just 30 calories and no artificial sleepers. Pepsi prebiotic cola.

Unbelievably Pepsi. Mel. All right, Joel. Let's bring in our special guest.

Melkiper Jr. has been covering the NFL draft for ESPN since 1984 when Mel was 23 years old

and the draft was on a Tuesday morning, but Kiper has been sizing up prospects since he was in

high school. He's the pride of Baltimore and was the best customer at the late great Baltimore ESPN

zone. Mel, welcome to the press box. Great to be with you. Andy Poe and I did so much radio,

live radio from the ESPN zone all those years, four hours on Saturday, four hours on Sunday from

10 to 2 each day. So the Andy, great friend of mine with Tony Cornhye's will spend so many,

our whole weekend was spent at the ESPN zone eating all those great crab cakes down there.

I remember you would plug the crab cakes all the time. They really had at the time.

I mean, one of the best crab cakes you would have ever gotten was at the ESPN zone. So,

I remember one time they took it off the menu. So how can you take it? You can't take it off the menu.

You're in Baltimore. It's a crab cake country. So you can't, they got it back when I met you.

So yeah, it came back as I best for my, you know, prodding. It got it back one there. No,

it was a great crab cake. So we had so much fun, Leonard. The ESPN zone all those years.

As I mentioned, you were in high school 18 years old when you started putting together draft reports.

What was it about the NFL draft that intrigued you? Well, it was the only way to improve your

football team back in those days. It was 17 rounds, keep in mind. Then it became 12 rounds.

And there was no free agency. There was very few trades in the NFL. And the only way your team

is going to change from this year to next year is via the draft. And again, fans in those days

didn't have access to any information on these players. When Saturdays, how many games were you

really watching? One game, maybe two. You didn't have access to anything from the smaller colleges,

the division one, double A's. You didn't have anything, any access to anything on those players.

So I felt like let me find a way to get that information to the fans and do the mock drafts.

If one of the first ones ever did my to the six round mock back in the day. So it was crazy.

All the thing I'd overachiever list underachiever list sleeper list players will improve. They're

rating at the all star games. All there were suggestions that came from people in the league on how

things I could add to the book. What I wanted to do guys was cover the player from high school,

through college, how he got to there. What he did combine all star games, but his whole

development is a football player. So hey, the evaluations one thing, the ratings is another thing.

But the event that they're right up gave everybody a real good snapshot of that player. So

when the kid was drafted by their football team, they could get an idea of where how he got from

point A to point Z because basically there was it was a lot of things were happening,

changing positions, going from here to there. So I really wanted to cover the kid in totality

and just let them figure it out. Let them figure out based on all the information I provided.

Do you like them? Where would you array them? So it was just a great way to get information out there

when it likes that it was very little available at that point in time.

Were you a big college football fan then? Like what were your Saturdays? Like because I'm a college

guy over in a field guy. That even of itself is enough. People always ask me that question.

They say, what do you love? I love my Saturdays. I love my Sundays. And my mind, I just love

kind of as soon as we got to be one, two in the morning, when at last game, when the West Coast

or Hawaii was finished, I flipped to NFL and then it was all NFL. So I loved them both. People say

some people are all college or a lot of college. Some people are a lot of NFL and don't watch a lot of

I love them both. And I think they were totally different entities. And in terms of the energy,

the excitement, you could always tell when we went to a campus on Thursday or Friday, you knew there

was a game Saturday. It's just the build up and you could just see it. You could feel it, smell it,

every touch it, everything. And so college was so special. So to see kids and be able to watch kids

at the collegiate level and then watch their development and then get into the NFL and how they

project that they fit this scheme, what do they do? There was so much into it. I thought there's

going to be a market. I guess what? Ernie, of course, he, who a great friend of mine,

he encouraged me to do this. He said, no, you know, don't just send it out to the NFL teams,

which I did in the beginning, make that available to the public. They crave this type of information

the fans do, make it available to the public. We'll just send it to the NFL teams and writers

around the country, make it available to fans out there. And we did that starting really in 1981,

was the first year of the actual report was available to the public to purchase and then it continued

on all the way through the years. How was there for a second on sending the draft report in those

early years to NFL teams? What did they make of you? Well, they didn't know who really, they didn't

know a lot of people when I was doing radio and I was 18, 19, I think people thought I was 40.

They didn't know. They had no one ever asked me. I never had to say what I never tried to

mislead anybody. I mean, they knew exactly who they were dealing with that they asked me to question.

They didn't ask me am I going to tell them? So I don't know how many people actually knew or didn't know,

but in terms of the NFL, I'm sending out a report. They didn't know me. Keep in mind there's no social

media. There's nothing to want to want that. There's nothing going on there. So you really had,

they had no idea who was actually doing this. I got to know a lot of them when I went to the

senior ball to the All Star games. They know it actually meet them. We became great friends with a

lot of people in the league. I say, Ernie was when I jack fought or the late great jack fought and

when I had best friends ever. Like I say, Ernie was one encouraged me to do this. Ernie offered me

my first job in the NFL back in 1983. Before I got to ESPN, I'd accepted a position with Ernie to

be an assistant to him, not an assistant GM, like just an assistant to Ernie to do whatever Ernie

needed me to do. And I was going to give up the business, give up the reports and go to work for

the Baltimore Colts. And I said, will you want me to just go through the 83 draft? We'll bring you

in in July when camp opens. It's great. And got to the summer. They traded John L.

away without Ernie's knowledge. I was talking to the team moving. He knew I was a Baltimore guy.

He knew he would probably bring me in and have to leave. So he always said, no, it's not going to

happen. I said, what do you want me to do? Ernie then, he said, keep doing what you're doing. You

got a great thing going. Keep doing what you're doing. Nothing. We never announced you were coming

here. No harm. No foul there. Nobody knew it. Just keep doing what you were doing. What that was in

June. In January, I got a call from ESPN to come up and interview for the draft job. So I had

Ernie, I always say this. Ernie, of course, I'm not cared about this 20, 23 year old kids,

22 year old kids at the time, 22. I would have never been at ESPN would have never had anything

going because I would have probably taken that job with him. He would have been left. He would have

left. I would have been, I would have been with the Colts. They wouldn't have kept me because I

was Ernie's guy. And who knows what would have happened. So one for Ernie actually caring about me

and treating Mike part of his family like he always did. I would have never been where I am today.

Ernie, of course, he is a once in a lifetime type of person as Jack Falkner was a lot of those

other men that I met in the NFL were none better than Ernie, of course, he out there ever.

So, Mel, can you just for a second bring us with you as you walk into the Colts facility? Like you're

being, you're being welcomed into this world. There are a lot of people I've only ever just guessed

at or had, you know, brief glimpses at, but like you're getting access to proprietary information

and all this other stuff. So what was it like for you to walk through the doors of that facility

and be there every day and like have access to all that info and these other these football minds?

I was only there once with the Giraffe 83. Okay. I go down to the Convention Center and Bob

Leithler who was in marketing for the Colts of Times said go down there. They have all the fans down

there. You can be down there and just let the people know who was Giraffe basically be a Giraffe

analyst, right? And nobody knew I was coming to the work for the Colts. After that was over,

that event was over. I went out to the Colts facility and was there. Just walked around. Frank

Kush was the coach. Ernie was there and we were part of that drive that wasn't privy. Anything.

I was there with the media hanging out with the media wasn't in the, I wasn't a part of the

cold organization yet. I was going to be brought in in June. And then all the things happening with

remember Schradney they drive to John L. Wage. Remember that year he was a Baltimore Colts,

right? And then they traded him without Ernie's knowledge. And then that's when Ernie said,

no, there's talk of the Colts moving. I'm not going to have you come into this type of an environment.

And then you have to give up what you're doing. You had a great business starting. And once you

come here and if I leave then you're going to be out on his island all by yourself. So Ernie

thought it through enough. You imagine Ernie thinking about me. This is Ernie of course you

at the time. This is General Manager in National Football Day. And he's going through all this

with their trading the quarterback John L. Wage was one of his favorite players all the time. My

high is graded player of all time. John L. Wage by the way. And then the trade occurs. He wasn't,

he would have gotten more. He didn't even get much for John L. Wage considering the franchise

quarterback we knew he would become. And then but Ernie cares about me enough when he's going

through all of himself. And then of course I always say it for Ernie. Think about it. Johnny and

I just Burke Jones, Bernie Kosar, Eli Manning, all these quarterbacks was Ernie of course. So you

think about a guy who's the quarterback, you know, guru in terms of knowledge and being able to

evaluate quarterbacks. Nobody did it but better throughout his career than Ernie of course he did.

So to be around Johnny and I as Burke Jones, like I say, make the do the supplemental deal with

Bernie Kosar and Cleveland and then get orchestrated the whole Eli Manning scenario with the giants.

Are you kidding me? None but better in terms of evaluating quarterbacks through that

the history of the NFL that Ernie of course he was. You mentioned that you're doing the draft guy

in this early years long before social media or the internet as we know it existed. How'd you

make sure football fans knew that your guide existed? Through advertising and just basically doing

25 radio shows a day. Guys, that's what I would do from morning till night. I was doing radio shows

all over. Myron Kopen Pittsburgh and Eden Martini and Mike Edmunds down in Houston, a KPRC, KPM,

KMOX out in St. Louis all over Denver, which Jim Turner out there did radio anywhere and everywhere.

And then the advertising football news and pro football weekly and sporting news and advertisements

you would put out there and then just getting at different lists that you could have mailing lists

to send to fans that would body other publications. We were just trying to get it out there and as

many people through advertising were to mouth, sending it out to my NFL people sending it out to the media.

I would send complimentary copies that we the beat writers with the newspapers then and just tried to

like say promote it through the radio. All those hosts would say, okay, well, you got the

draft work. I sent it to them. I'm looking at it. How can people get it? Not give out the number.

They call or the report get it right out to them and then it would spread through. They would have

their friends get the report and get calls. It was amazing. As soon as I hung up the phone from

those radio shows the phone would start ringing with orders. So I can't thank all those hosts

enough over the years because they were the reason why I was able to get that information out there

to the fans all across the country. Can I tell a quick story here, Joe? Because that's exactly how I

got Mel Kipers phone number back in the day. You were doing a hit, Mel. I was growing up in Dallas

Fort Worth with Norm Hitz gets down there. There's a good guy. So I hear I am. I'm a young football fan.

I'm like, how do I get this draft guide? Because I just didn't know how to do it. And Mel was

actually coming on the show after I was supposed to be in school. So Joe, this is the technology the time

I push record on a tape went to school came home, listen to the segment. I thought, oh my gosh,

I have Mel's phone number. I got my mom's credit card. Melon called you in Baltimore.

Thank you. I guess the norm was great. I mean, I'm probably sorry if I keep going to leave some

out of the out that I really shouldn't, but the host of all those shows, they say I would do shows

morning. If you evening as many as I possibly could. And then obviously you're looking at players

or evaluating players. I was the only person out of big, the big satellite dish on the roof of

our house where I was able to get all those different games. I'd go to games in the afternoon. I'd

go to games in the evening. I drive all over. So I was trying to get information as much as I

possibly could by doing it that way. You had your friends in the NFL that would help you out as

well with stuff. So like I said, it was, it was just a way to just try to put together a report

on a player that allowed fans. They said who couldn't get that information. They couldn't see a

lot of these players. I said, you're only getting one Saturday game or two. That's it. And so a lot of

these players once they were drafted, well, who are they? That's why I thought that report.

And I, and I talked about thought and he knew it. He said fans crave this type of information

because they want to know who are these guys or a fan of Georgia. Let's see where my Georgia

bulldog players are going to go. Where are they being projected to go? There was none of that out

there. And I guess I started doing those mock dress when nobody else was really doing them. So

the draft report was something at that time. The information that was provided in those reports

couldn't be had anywhere else. And I thought it's one thing I was right on. The popularity of the

draft, I really believe guys in those days was going to be through the roof because what's better to

do in April? What else are you going to do in April? Well, you haven't had football since the

Super Bowl. You see them still ways away. And now you get these days where you can bring the NFL

and college football together. And what could be better than that? So I really thought the NFL

draft. I know how I viewed it. I know how fans that I had spoken to have viewed it. And I really

was believing strong in this business could be something you could be successful. Whether ESPN came

along or didn't I? In the beginning, I was just starting the business to be that. I didn't know

whatever work at ESPN. I started in 8.78.79. I started ESPN in 84. I had no idea I'd ever work at ESPN.

I didn't start it to get to ESPN. I started it or get to the NFL. I just started to be a business.

And I believed in that from the get go. And now we see how the draft with the draft has become.

It's just funny for you to say that what else you go to do, Mel, because I mean,

you're about to more than the Orioles are there. You know, is the NBA playoff. So about to start

up. There's the masters. I'm assuming none of that ever was on your radar. What's so ever?

Well, keep it. I bet one, the King of all sports. That's the NFL. The NFL at football is the

King of all sports college football. Very close second, right? Or I don't know if there's a second to

say, but then I fell was the King of all sports. So I was betting on them with the draft the right

sport. There are other drafts, but the NFL draft is is it. So to me, you know, I just picked the

right sport had that that passion for football. And I say to other than that was a huge baseball fan.

Love the Orioles. I go back to Palmer McNally, Quayar and Dopson last four 20 game winners in

Major League baseball, Baltimore Orioles. So I was a huge Brooks Robinson got no Brooks, Met Brooks.

They have Frank Robinson. Are you kidding me? Who pal? I mean, the list goes on and on to the great

Oriole players are a weaver. They're all ballpark. I grew up in I mean, we get kidding with the

Baltimore Orioles and all those great players Brooks and Frank enough said. So I was a huge

Baltimore Orioles fan. But what I say when you get to April and the King of all sports has been

out of the out of the spotlight since the Super Bowl. And now we're looking forward to the season

in this draft is going to impact my team moving forward. These are guys from the key entities. Let's

find out who they are. That's why I thought the draft report would be something that the football

fans, whether you're college or whether you're an NFL fan, would have a lot of interest in.

But Bill, Mel, that's crazy because nobody was calling the NFL the King of Sports in 1984, right?

Like that is a recent that is a recent thing, right? Like I feel like the NFL has assumed

its dominance into last generation or so. But nobody was that is big on the NFL. Like you were

apparently. I felt like what I felt like since I'm so much I couldn't wait so camp open. I couldn't

wait to get out the cold camp. I couldn't wait to that first college aimed to hear those voices.

And I think I always say the voices of college football and the NFL created a lot of fans.

I go back to Lindsey Nelson and Chris Shanko and Bill Fleming and all the great voices. And of

course Howard Cocelle and the NFL then Keith Jackson and moving forward out of Michael's. But all

the great voices that were back in my to Lindsey Nelson doing the cotton bubble and they say,

don't don't know the Saturdays when you're only getting one, maybe two games and you hear Chris

Shanko with Bud Wilkinson or Chris or or or a part-season or whoever it may have been.

You know Frank Broyles all those great football analysts that were one there. The color commentators

the play by play those voices Bill Fleming did had college football today on Sunday right before

NFL today was college football day with Bill Fleming. I spoke to Bill. I called him to thank him

for basically creating a fan like he did with me. Bill Fleming was tremendous and he said how I

would drive after I did the games that I had to drive to the studio get all the tape put it

together two three in the morning get that show ready for it was 12 o'clock on noon and you see

highlights of six games the bands playing at half time that's all we had and then 1230 was

the NFL today with the great Brent Musbergur, Herb Cross, George and Jimmy Degree right

on the side or so that was that was what your Sundays were college football today the NFL day

with Brent, Philus, Herb and and the Greek and that was it. And that's what we look forward to.

And I thought if I'm I can't get enough of this and I know a lot of my friends and fat everybody

loved it. Got to believe you say if you say it one of the people you get pretty much a trend going

or a percentage you know what's going to be. So I felt like the NFL I really believed at the time

so 78 and even through my 18 years I really believe the NFL was the king of all sports it was.

I thought it was then it certainly is now. I read that in the early years of the report Mel that

your dad helped you with your business. What was Mel Kuiper senior like? Oh my gosh,

without my father and you know, my family and my mom and everybody was never would have been a

business because he had the business knowledge. I didn't. I was once and okay, we got to get an

office. We got to get secretaries. We got to get 800. No, no, no, no, no, no, overhead will destroy

you before even start. I had no clue about business. I'm ready to go. We've got to get office here.

No, no, no, here. The basement your office. I'm your secretary and those are your phones right

there. The land. That's it. And we'll get going that way. So he really established that. He would

work and do everything. I'll tell you a story where in the basement I'd have my desk and hit

that his desk and we do where we do the reports and get them out. And the phone would rang after

someone radio and I'd be over there typing on a typewriter. You know, and where you had a

white out mistake you made and I'm typing up my reports. Phone to rang us. How could you get that?

Nope. They would have talked to you. They don't want to talk to me. I'd have to go over, get the phone,

take to a comeback and figure out where I was in terms of writing my scouting report and typing

it in for it. And it's had to be camera ready to go to the printer. Okay. This was camera ready.

So I had to take my notes and put it all together into a write up. And you know, you can lose your

train to thought very easily. Where was I come back? But you know, there was method to the man

and this is the day they want to talk to you. Well, what happened through those conversations?

We're people. I got so many friends through those conversations. I talked to them for an hour.

Some of those conversations went two, three hours. So I never even got back the ring of that

report on that player till the next morning. So again, he had a great business sense. He worked

tirelessly. I mean, I could be sitting there watching him to put in stamps. So I mean, it was

amazing. So without my father, my mom, sister, Kim took over when we back. Without family,

this was a family business from the start. Without my family, I would have never been where I am today.

What kind of dad was, Mel, type of seeing you then, like, what, you know, yeah, well,

they kind of got to do this support you because you didn't go. I mean, people don't know.

Melden, you didn't go to like a traditional four-year college. No, well, that's an

ask community college for two years. That was that. He was baseball. He was a great found out

stories from all the people to play with a great baseball player. I'd seen the picture saw the

write-up. He was going to go and play, have a chance to play major league baseball, but he had

a shoulder injury. And then you weren't making lots, so he had to work. So he gave it up. But,

you know, he coached after that in high school and at University of Baltimore. But at the end of

the day, he was a great baseball player. He had one thing going. He was a shortstop. He had great

speed. I never had that, but I found out even after my father passed away, even his funeral,

I had so many people come up to you. Your dad was a great ball player, great this, great that.

And then he had the business sense to basically steer me in the right direction and talk me out

of things that weren't going to work, that would have destroyed any chance we had of even getting

off the ground. So again, and then do the work, where I was I was strictly doing the books and he

was handling all the business of the ads, getting the ads together to put into publications,

handling everything came in. I had no clue. I would have had no idea what I was doing. Okay, no,

I would have known how to actually write up the reports, but it wouldn't have been a business.

He had that ability to take what I had as an idea and make it what it became. And certainly,

at that point in time and through the years, when I started the SPN, I was always doing the books.

So the books continued until the internet came over and then everything was going to want to

want to up one ESPN.com and then the books became a secondary option. But until the internet and

everything took over with .coms, like I said, that book was a tremendously valuable item to a lot

of fans around the country who today I just got to call this one. Mike, can you bring the blue

Peter King always said to me, Mel, can you bring the blue book out of retirement? Can you bring it

back? Peter always got it for all those years. Peter King was one of my best friends ever

covering the NFL and Peter would always say that to him. I really missed the blue book.

Well, I always called it the blue was the drear for it, but it was the blue book because I had

other ones like the preview and I had newslighters. I had the draft update. I had the draft review,

but the blue book was the big one. And guess what guys, it came out. I remember.

And my father would say to me every night, when you come up, I could have 10 sheets on my desk.

When before you go to bed, there's going to be 10 camera ready sheets. We can't. You're not going

anywhere. You're not going to deadline. So I needed that. As a young, you're talking about 18,

19, 20, 22, 23 year old. You needed that. So without that type of discipline, it came from him

saying, you got to do this in order to get it ready. You said in your ads, it's going to be

mailed out at this date. It's got to go to press here to be able to have that happen and these 10

days to the printer, all those things that I would have never thought about. He did. So the only

reason there was ever a draft report that got out there, the only reason I was ever at ESPN was

because of the job my father did steering me in the right direction and doing all that work to

help his son have a fighting chance. When ESPN first reached out in 1984, did they want Mel Kuiper

to come on TV and be the guy who could talk about any prospect or did they want Mel Kuiper to come

on TV and have big opinions about the prospects? I don't think they knew what they were getting.

I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I had no TV experience whatsoever. The late great John

Steadman, who was one of my best friends, great columnist and did radio and Baltimore. The

Baltimore legend, John Steadman brought me on radio. I had never been on the radio. John would

bring me on to a Saturday night show and I'd do the show with John. And Paul Kuiper was calling

Mr. Steadman. He said, no, please just John. He said, Mr. Steadman, it was just John Steadman.

John was a great friend of mine in those years. I'd never done TV. I did a couple of

little segments with Hope Hines, who was a TV host and Scott Garso here, a channel two here in Baltimore.

But at the end of the day, no, I had no experience whatsoever. What happened was

good friend of mine at the time was having lunch. Greg Morado was a player agent. It was having lunch

or dinner with Bill Fitz, who was producing the draft at the time. And I came up where Blood

Wilkinson was retiring. Great coach. Great. You know, color commentator on college,

well, but Wilkinson legend was retiring. He had been the draft analyst and he said, hey,

we're looking to fill this role. He said, hey, I got a guy. He puts out draft reports.

He's right up his alley. At least talk to him. Got a call to come up the Yes,

Bennett interview. I went up an interview and for a couple of hours, I guess it was the interview.

Went home a couple weeks later. Got a call from Bill that I was going to be part of the 1984

draft and do that whole year at ESPN with what I was sports center stuff or whatever it may have

been. So the 84 draft became my first year there. And they said, when I went in the air, I remember

sitting with Chris Burman and Bob Lee and boomer Sesson, what do I do? He said, just talk to me.

Don't worry about these cameras. Just sit here at this desk and talk to me. And Bob was hosting it.

We were all in Bristol, Connecticut. It was Bob Lee, Chris Burman and myself. We weren't at the

main set. George Brand was with Paul Zimmerman and Howard Balls, but we were in Bristol. And I

remember I made a prediction about a trade between Buffalo Miami where Buffalo would trade down and

get Greg Bell. And it just so happened. It worked that way. It worked. They said they traded down.

It took Greg Bell. And I remember Rudy Martzky told about one of my great friends was really good.

Oh, really? I was saying that media call. Rudy was a little seas man. Yeah. Rudy was great. And

so he wrote he I remember they were interviewing Rudy during the dress. Oh, Mel Kuiper.

Remember that guy has he's had some pretty good information. So that gave me some credibility there.

Rudy recognized something that that prediction to came through and then kind of rest his history.

But he has to be on just one hour to our interview brought me on. They didn't know what they were going to.

If you go back to 84, I was speaking like I was in a library. It was so low. If you go back to the

84, I mean, I was no projection. It was just having to leave boomerson. Just talk to me and I did.

But it was like I was like it was in a library. I was talking very low. Very low.

Remember we interviewed boomer a sias in after he dropped to the second round. If there were three

players in the first round and not boomer, he was a little disappointed. I brought up Johnny

and I just and Dan Foulson others who had dropped and we were really one of you are that at the time

because he wanted to be a first round pick. He was a second round pick. But yeah, that 84 draft

with that long hair was the first one that I had ever done. And at first, really the first time I

had ever been on TV for any extent of time, longer than a couple minutes.

That's great. So obviously it's so much easier to get film and tapes now. Anybody can just

tap into whatever sort of resource now. But I'm imagining late 70s, early 80s, this was a much

more conversant thing. How did you get game film and tapes? Yeah. Did you go places if they

mail it to you or what? I had school send me stuff. I had all the different agents, all the

friends I had and the league. Everybody and anybody wherever I could get. So I had that huge dish

where I was able to watch games from all over that other people couldn't see. And if L, it was

that big satellite dish gave me access. And then what's sadder is what I would do. I'd go to a game

around noon in one area that I drive to another game in the late afternoon or early evening. So I was

doing a lot of that that gets that in person scouting, no matter what it was. I remember those days,

a lot of small colleges, not the one double A years were really key entities. And so I did whatever

needed to be done to get the information. And that's just the way it was. And like I said,

having that ability through the reports to gain access through the friends up and I had in the

league, they would have we talked back before. What do you think? What do you think? I mean,

that didn't weigh any secrets, but it was it was a back and forth dialogue. Well, out of the

the friends I had in the National Football League, which really helped me along the way when

there were some players just couldn't get enough one, couldn't see enough of it. And they

was like, hey, take a look at this guy. So it was a it was a great relationship formed that really

helped me along the way, be able to put those reports out the way I did. I'll never forget the

1994 draft mail because I'm watching on TV in a sports bar, young draft Nick talk tutored by you

and the Colts take Trev Alberts aligned back and set a Trent Dill for a quarterback. And you were

critical on television. Whenever you were critical, of course, we parked up because I don't know

when we go here, this is interesting. And then Chris Mortensen of ESPN interviews, Bill Tobin,

GM of the Colts. And he goes on this unbelievable rant about you. Who in the hell is Mel Kuiper in a way?

I mean, here's a guy that criticizes everybody. Whoever they take, he's got the answers to who you

should take and who you shouldn't take. In my knowledge of him, he's never ever put on a

jockstrap. He's never been a coach. He's never been a scout. He's never been an administrator.

And all of a sudden, he's an expert. He's in our papers two days ago telling us who we have to

take. We don't have to take anybody that Mel Kuiper says we have to take. Mel Kuiper has no more

credentials to do what he's doing that my neighbor and my neighbor's a postman and he doesn't even

have season tickets to the NFL. What went through your mind at that point? Yeah, the who the hell

is Mel Kuiper, right? It was over. When Lauren was born, I thought they had a who with the hell

is Mel Kuiper Jersey. I said, my dad said that was always talking about, but it was interesting because

you know, Freddie Gidelli was producing the draft at the time. And you know, Joe Thysen was there

with me and boomer and we're all there. And you know, when they're doing stuff away from the set

where where mort was, then you're just getting ready for the next picture figuring out, you know,

notes looking everything. What are we doing? Freddie's talking to us and I didn't even hear that.

I didn't know knowledge of what was going on there. So I remember Freddie said to me, we're coming

to you when we finish with mort with Bill Tobin. We're kind of like, okay, you're going to be on

camera three, whatever. Let's look in the camera and start talking. I said, what am I talking about?

He said, well, just know that Bill Tobin's ripping you about what you said and respond to that.

So I had to respond to something I really didn't see. Didn't even hear. I just knew that there

was something said about, yeah, and I just went on and said whatever I said. And that's all the

knowledge I had at the time because I wasn't aware what was going on back there. So I found out

it was about the whole Trev Trent thing and had nothing to do with what everybody brings in Marshall

fucking. Nothing to do with Marshall fuck. This is strictly as you just said about taking,

not taking Trent but taking Trev. And ironically, guys, how it all worked out Trent comes to

Baltimore. My home fan and wins a Super Bowl. Okay, after getting drafted by Tampa Bay,

Trent comes here, saves the day. They had a great defense. The quarter back played to be solid

and consistent. Trev gave him that wins a Trent gave him that won a Super Bowl here. Trent

Bill for dead in Baltimore. So that came really full circle from that moment. So there the football

helmet, the old helmet phones, the SPN helmet phone from that year. We'll sit there.

Freddie Gidelli said, take that. Take that. It's a 94 helmet phone. Have it in my office right now.

You'll see it. So again, that's the one from 1994. And right where we're looking. So I see that

every day and it brings back all those great memories. But like I said, I have Trent come back here

at to Baltimore with the Ravens and win a Super Bowl. When I team that had one of the greatest

defenses of all time in the NFL, which was pretty amazing. You know, in an interview 12 years ago,

it was a story written about you in a bleach report. You said something a lot of lines of,

I think people want to take people down. I think this country is all about trying to take you down.

Because you know, you'd face some criticism from the agent Josh Luxe and the late draft,

draft Nick Joel Bushbaum about like how you, you know, did stuff or whatever. So like,

do you still feel that way? Like the writer in the piece at the time said, you felt like you were a

target. Do you still feel that way today? Well, back in those days, remember, everybody was hating

one the draft. It wasn't just me. It was basically anybody that covers the draft was getting, you know,

hated on over there off right. The evaluations of the draft, the write-ups on the draft,

the articles about the draft, anything pertaining to that was like, why are you doing this? Nobody

cares. And I kept saying, what people do care. I never understood the negativity and then it came

towards me because I was doing this and I was the analyst and, you know, I don't know if that

seems to be it. Some of the articles were written were scathing. And I remember seeing the articles,

and I get them sent or Kim would shout, I don't want to see any of this. I don't want to see the

good, the bad, the ugly. I don't want to see any of it. Whatever happens happens, people are going

to have their opinions. I don't want to be, be looking at this. If I have a little look at that,

some of that, what is said, I'm done. I'm done. I'm walking away from this. You know, because I say,

they were some awful, awful articles written at the time. And what happened was over the years,

you notice it would be less and a little less. And then it's gone because I think a lot of the

haters either jumped on the bandwagon or just shut the hell up. That's what I either shut up

or you jump on the bandwagon. How can you criticize this process or anybody who's doing this and

then the internet started and everybody's got mocked dress and everybody's got, and what could be

better than that? Now we got thousands of people on the internet putting out mocked dress,

evaluating players. I love that because it shows that hey, you know, something I believe

them when nobody else did. Now everybody loves and there's no haters. I don't see, they're probably

our articles like that. I don't see them. There certainly aren't nearly as many, maybe a certain

small percentage of what it was. But I think the fact that the draft and fans and everybody now is so

into this whole event, the biggest events you'll ever see throughout the year in sports is the

NFL draft. So look at the ratings. I mean, games can't get and other sports can't get the

rating of the NFL draft. So to me, the once everybody saw these haters saw, if I write this,

someone looks like an idiot. So I got to just stop. So you know, they just, I think they just

either went away or didn't do anything or just started to do what it is cover the draft because

everybody loves it. Joe's got a quick lightning round for you, Mel, but I have one more. Your favorite

memory of covering the draft from the old Marriott Marquis in Times Square, New York. Oh my gosh.

I mean, just the fans, you remember then you could almost run up to your room and come back

because that's the way it was at the Grand Ballroom, the Marriott Marquis. We didn't have time to do

that. I know anybody in your family was there and no Kim was there with me. Should run up,

come back and then the fans will be right there. It wasn't a lot, but they were right there and

everybody's kind of accessible. They had the, the deaths with the phones and you can see everybody

getting the cards, right in the cards and they take it up and they announced the pick and I remember

that one memory, I don't remember what year it was when the Vikings passed on a player. They

remember they passed and then Tarell Suggs, they dropped back and caught up. Then Tarell Suggs was

taken and then I'll play boom, boom, boom. And they finally took Kevin Williams, the defense

attacker and had to be heck of a player, but they had passed like a couple of times. Now,

remember, I'm sitting there on a set. It was just crazy. We had never seen that kind of situation,

the merge and develop right in a blank where you're passing your time expires and the teams run

in the card up to get ahead of you so they can get that player before you do. It was Crab. Remember,

Boomer was saying, Oh, here we go. Another card. Another card. And it was crazy and then the

Vikings made their pick. That turned out to be a really good football player, but that was that was

something I think we saw once and that was it. I don't know if we ever see that again, but that was

a memory that will never go away. Amazing. Well, I do have a lightning round for you. I'm

going to do a special lightning round because normally for everybody else, you know, I'm asking

them about their favorite city, favorite hotels, whatever, but we didn't ask you about players.

And so I want to ask you about players in this lightning round. Okay. And so I want you,

Mel Kuiper, to build me a team of draft prospects, you felt most strongly about. I don't care what

happened to them in NFL. If they got injured, they didn't, they were busted, became a hall of

favor. Just a team of the players, you felt most assured of at the time you printed your draft guide.

Okay. Okay. So I'm going to start with a safety. But give me a give me your safety.

Well, the defense and back to safety that I loved coming out was Ronnie Lott. Ronnie Lott had

one at the top. He was corner. He was corner. He was corner safety. But he was one of those guys.

You knew could start out of corner and dumping us. Loved the way Ronnie played the game. He was

lights at it. He was all about football. Obviously, you know, think about, uh, you know,

USC, Detroit, Palomolo, that same attitude. Ronnie Lott had that. He was all football so smart,

such a tough, reliable player, versatile player with unbelievable skill set. Ronnie Lott was one of,

I've say overall, my one of my favorite defensive backs of all time. Probably had one of the highest

grades I ever gave a defensive back was Ronnie Lott corner. Corner. I'll tell you what, when you

look at corners and I go back and it's not that long ago. Really? When you think about the great

corners that came into the league, but Rod Woodson. Rod Woodson came out of Purdue. And I only

made years ago as he's all years run together. But Rod was a Purdue. I remember getting the numbers

and it's just it's just added up to somebody who has, I want to say rare to have an elite grade.

You got to almost have rare talent. Got some guys in this tray. I have to do as well. But

Rod Woodson had rare talent. And you said, boy, he can be a guy. He can be a locked down guy.

In the NFL. And of course, Dion Sanders was the other one.

Vion had one of the highest grades that ever gave a player coming out wide.

Vion. I remember against Clemson. I think it was. He basically told everybody to get that

value. I'm taking his punt return for a touchdown. It was like Babe Ruth putt. Okay. I'm taking this

for a touchdown. You know, what he did? Dion took it for a touchdown. Okay. Vion Sanders would lock

you down. And so I think when when Rod Woodson and Dion, those were two guys were so much fun to

watch because the skill sets and then the incredible confidence of Dion to say, I'm not going to

tell you I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. So hey, walk, walk, talk to talk. Well, he did

everything. And I remember it. Clemson that punt return was amazing where he said, hey, you

putt it to me. Make that mistake. He did it to the house. And he did. So I'd say those two Rod

and certainly Dion were the two for me a corner. Okay. So I know football. I bet the reason I'm not

going to break down inside outside line back a pass. Because I want to be I just I don't want to,

you know, I want to be respectful of your time. So your favorite linebacker ever. Can't miss.

I'm going to go by it. It was a Baylor bear. A great Baylor bear and Grant Tath. And it was Mike

Singletary. Mike Singletary playing. And I remember Mike Singletary was not a first round draft

choice. Yeah. Just that round back. And he was just like, I you could see the way he looked. I

remember growing up watching Willie Linier with the Kansas City cheese and watching it was great

Dick Buckis and Ray Nitsky and Tommy Nobus. It was that attitude and that look. And you could see

the eyes of a guy and Mike Singletary had that look. And boy, he was moving and Ray Lewis came along

and Ray was certainly my favorite of all time moving forward. What he did with the Baltimore Ravens.

And this is franchise. What he meant? First two picks were Jonathan Ogden and Ray Lewis speaks

volumes about Y. Ozzy Newsom's Hall of Fame GM in addition to being a Hall of Fame player. But I

think Mike Singletary that Baylor bear and that was equity in the Baylor had. Now they got

they remember I played Alabama. He got a cotton bowl and Alabama got the best of them there. But

Baylor had with water, Abercrombie and other Baylor bear. They of course, Cody Carlson was a

quarterback for Baylor. Well, we're both. Exactly. I got great Houston older memories with my

great friend Buddy Ryan back in the day. But um certainly Mike Singletary would be that linebacker.

He said the eyes and just the attitude, the approach of that true Mike man.

Defensive lineman. So again, it could be past or a defensive in defensive tackle, but defensive

lineman. Just your favorite. Yeah, I think when you look back in the long terms of the overall

defensive lineman and I know LT and coming you know doing what he did at North Carolina was amazing.

They come from North Carolina with the New York Giants and do what he did there. But I look at

Richard Dent with the Chicago Bears. I'm bringing up Richard Dent for this reason. Tennis seats state

and to be able to find out some things when Richard Dent and know a little about Richard Dent who

was what a ninth round pick late round. Those rounds don't exist anymore, right? And to see a

Richard Dent from Tennessee state emerged and become the great player that he was in the NFL.

And you really think about, you know, coming from those types of schools then and getting that

to be able to watch and evaluate players. Is that like now? Okay, now with the end of the

lot of these plays, these schools aren't going to be able to get those plays. They get them. They

can't keep them. And those days Jerry Rice that Mississippi like go to wide receivers Jerry Rice

will be that guy because you wanted to have those guys that were you wonder can they make that

transition from a lower level competition to the NFL. That was always and Richard Dent did it and

he did it in a huge way. Offensive lineman. Yeah, so many. I mean, it's just so many great

offensive lineman over the years. To me or Lando pace. How many came out of Ohio state and I go

back to Tony Bacelli, Jonathan Ogden, great ones. There's no question about it. But I think

Orlando pace when you get dropped. Well, I say the L. T. Piers, who are the look the part guys?

Who the guys got and if they look the part, do they translate that to the big time success in

a NFL or Lando pace? Did that is number one overall pick for a reason? It's just like say if you

could draw up the perfect, you know, book. Yeah, it would be Orlando pace tied in. You know,

I I again, I'm going to go back in time, but I think we always want to go out now. I always get

the years mixed up as the one they were, what era, what era they weren't. But a guy who became

was and always was a great player. And I, you know, time and again, you say, okay, how do they

compare a rating from the 80s to now where we have a Kenyan city coming out? And I look back

when the great players from those years. And it's hard to distinguish. I mean, the Travis Kelsey

was a third round pick, right? So he was a great player. But when you go back in time, the fate,

my favorite tight end of all time was Dave Casper. And ironically, Dave Casper with the Raiders,

the Oakland Raiders had one of the worst, we created one of the worst losses of my lifetime.

I have I have evaluated Dave and wasn't part of the book. But in terms of Dave Casper on a Christmas

Eve, I'm at Calvert Hall. I'm a student at Calvert Hall. Christmas Eve, we thought we had a

team or near course, it was part of this team. We thought we had a team that could get to the

Super Bowl. And it's going to go to multiple Super Bowls with Burke Jones, the Rustin rifle,

right? We had Roger Card, Glen Dowdy. We had the offensive line was in place. We had the the

sack pack with dotting and order air of Joe Harman and Mike Barnes, right? And Fred Cook.

And we had, we had the line by we had everything going. We had layered and we had black, we had it

all Bruce layer, we had everything going. And his Raiders team came to Memorial Stadium on Christmas Eve

and we had that game and I was a little Johnson had a kick return. Everything was going and ends up,

they tie it goes into overtime and who the remember to go to the post goes to the

Casper and Dave guy when the worst and I wrote it to the greatest players that I John L. Way,

nine point John L. Way was one of the reasons why the coach left John L. Way didn't want to be

a Baltimore coach. He wanted to be didn't want to play or they drafted him. Now I think earlier,

of course, he could have worked it out. He ends up with the Denver Broncos. One of his greatest

fields of a trade of all time, right? But I John L. Way the greatest highest grade of ever given a

player, nine point nine, nine, nine, nine. Dave Casper, one of the worst losses. I mean,

Christmas, Christmas day, it was all that season was rude. I mean, we thought we were heading to

the Super Bowl and the next year was when Burke got hurt and every was sacked by Baba Baker at the

Pontiac Silver Dome and you know, then that injury led to the basically demise of the Baltimore

Colts after that. But Dave Casper to watch him throughout the years with the Oakland Raiders was

unbelievable. What a great talent. They said he gave me one of the worst losses of my lifetime.

I won't do receivers since you already said Jerry Rice. So running back,

yeah, the member of the pony Express Backfield. Eric, the number 19 Dickerson 32 with Craig James,

right? I wish DuParte was he part of that? DuParte, was he, did he ever play with DuParte number

22 came along? There was one after another with SMU running backs, but Eric Dickerson number 19

at SMU and everybody said he's upright running backs and it's the rare town of Eric Dickerson

to have that kind of size and that's the style running and everything he did athletically and his

his ability was incredible for SMU and that pony Express Backfield and then to see him come into the

NFL. I grew up a huge coat fan, also grew up a huge LA Rams fan and I loved the the fearsome

forceome. I loved everything about that football team and the C you know Eric Dickerson ended up

with the Los Angeles Rams and do what he did and but then to go back in time I became a Finca's

a Merlin Olsen, okay? And that great defensive line there with the Los Angeles Rams and all those

great players on that Rams team. But to see an Eric Dickerson coming to the NFL after what we saw

at SMU and play the way he did. Number 19 that pony Express Backfield with Craig James was number 32

at SMU was a fun to watch. All right, but final one. I'm going to make you ask if somebody

other than John L. Way for quarterback. So who is number two? Well, you know, John had the highest

grade ever and nobody was even close to him. But I think the quarterback I'm most proud of. I'll

say go that route. Okay. But I liked more than anybody else and I remember having a conversation

with the general manager of the Cincinnati Van Gogh's Mike Brown. I'm a mic remembered. I remember

being on a phone with Mike Brown prior to 1984 draft Steve Younger going to the USFL. He would have

been the pick. But we had a quarterback here with the Merlin Terrapins number seven Boomer of

Siasin, right? And I remember watching Boomer throwing those 100 mile an hour fastballs and doing

great things throwing the football. And I had great belief in Boomer. He was on a cover of my 1984

blue book. The draft report was Boomer of Siasin. Bengals said three first round picks that

year did not take Boomer of Siasin. Took him into second round and look what happened. And

those three first round picture Ricky Hunley lined back around of Arizona, Pete Koch, defense

alignment out of Maryland. I think it was a roommate of Boomer's at Maryland and Brian Blato's

an offensive tackle out of North Carolina. They take Boomer in a second round. Look what happened,

right? Could have won that Super Bowl if one for that drive by Montana, right? They had that

Super Bowl, right? The interception was caught. Would have been different by the Bengals. But the

end of the day, Boomer of Siasin, to believe in him and to see Boomer and work with him at ESPN.

And what a great man he is, what a great football man he is, a tremendous knowledge, but what a great

quarterback he was. And like I say, I got it, you know, three times. I remember we interviewed. I

was one of the interviews. The first interview I ever did was with Boomer when he was picked. We

brought him on and he was not happy. And at least I brought up Fouts. I brought up, you know,

just because you say, hey, you don't worry about where you went. Just worry about going out there

and establishing that leadership and becoming the man in Cincinnati, which he did. And he didn't

want to hear it then, but he became a heck of a quarterback. And if I could have won that Super Bowl

against Montana, but didn't unfortunately, but to see him emerge when there were a lot of people

believing at the time that my rating was going to equate to what Boomer would become. And he did.

So I couldn't be more happy with the way Boomer's career went and what a great man he is and what a

great quarterback he was. And certainly great analyst he was as well. I refused to acknowledge

that he was great. I mean, I hated him as a white. This is Houston Oilers fan. You know, just a

class organization. I was one of my best friends ever in the history of the NFL, Ernie,

of course, he buddy Ryan Jack Falkner and a host of others. That's my that's my group. Those

were my guys, right? And Buddy was one of my guys. Will you tell that story real quick before

about Buddy Ryan going to Houston and how you may have gotten him on the Oilers?

Well, Buddy was through we have to know each other. We'll talk all the time. And then Buddy

was doing radio with me. He did Kevin Harlan. We did a show on Sunday night covering the NFL

games. Kevin Harlan hosted it with me, Buddy Howard Balls, or we did this show for years.

I know. Yeah. And Buddy was came one and did it with the year he was out of football. And

after the whole Eagle thing and then he comes in does the show. And I remember the huge I had done

radio. I've been doing radio for years with Anita Marks, and Ian Mike Edmonds on KPRC in Houston.

Years of radio. And being a member, they were looking for a defensive coordinator. Jack

Hardee was the head coach. So I said, the buddy, I said, I'm talking you up on Houston radio.

You'd be perfect. He said, I'm going to phone with Buddy. He said, Mel. I'm a head coach. I'm

not a coordinator. I'm a head coach. I said, Well, Buddy, I don't know if you're going to have

a chance to be a head coach again. You got to get back and reestablish Buddy Ryan. All right.

And re and get this defense going. Nope. Nope. Not not not interested. Not interested. It's okay.

Okay. The next day that's morning. I get a call from Buddy. You know, Buddy says, no.

Tell me about that Houston order of defense. I got it. I got it. I got I got Al Smith,

the middle line back. Great. Children. Sean Jones. William Fulon.

I said, remember, uh, yeah, you know, you're a lot of town on that defense, right?

And I'm going to raise children. She got the line back. Rasmus. You got Richard John. You got

all these things going here. Yeah. I said, Buddy, yeah, tell him I think I might do it. So he,

he ended up getting that job. He built that defense. Then that led to him becoming the Arizona

Cardinals head coach, right? By getting that Arizona court, what a Rex Ryan and Rob Ryan were brought in.

And Rex were only they were coaching it like smaller schools at the time. Rex and Rob were able to

be brought in through that. So I always say to myself, I was told Rex and Rob that. I said,

well, by time, I say, so what's your for that? You guys might know that you, I don't know where

you would have been doing what you would have been though, because that led to I can tell,

Buddy, I said, if you get that, then all of a sudden, Rex and Rob can be part of that because we

know they're developing the great coaches. I knew Rex and Rob would be great coaches. There was no

question that they were going to be phenomenal. So to me, you know, and then Buddy, I mean,

when that whole thing happened with the bear, he defended me. You want the air and buddy,

Buddy was one of the best friends I ever had in all the history of me doing this, like, say, with

Ernie, your course, he jack fought and are with the Los Angeles Rams Ernie and Buddy. Those were

the three that were, and I know I have other, there's a lot of others, but they were the big three

that keep my career. Like, say, Buddy was an incredibly loyal great friend. And as our Rex and Rob

to this day, Mel Cuyper Jr. This was huge fun. Check him out on ESPN. Don't forget to try the

crab cakes. Mel, thanks for coming on the press box. It's a great time. We had a great time,

guys, and anytime you need me, give me a call. He's Joel Anderson. I'm Brian Curtis,

production magic by Isaiah Blakely and Bruce Baldwin. Joe, we've had a big old week here at

press box industries. Yeah, man, April, April issue. April issue was Sean Fennesy about all

the presidents. Men, that's up right now. If you want to enjoy that, big show with the shoemaker

on Tuesday that featured a lot of my spring break adventures. We're going to talk about that at some

point. Yeah. Plus some heart hitting media takes. And that stuff, Joel, we'll see you next week

right here. We've already got a special guest lined up. And of course, there will be more

lukewarm takes about the media. See you then, Joel. Good for you, everybody.