Hasan Piker Has Thoughts on the Hasan Piker Discourse

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Welcome to Pots-Ave America. I'm John Favreau. This Sunday, Hassan Piker. Someone I'm sure no one

has a strong opinion about. Hassan stopped by the studio to talk about his move into electoral

politics. He recently hit the campaign trail to stump for Abdul El Sayed in Michigan. And to talk

about everything you've seen in the news about him lately. We ended up talking about the many

statements he's made that have sparked a discussion inside the Democratic Party about whether

candidates should associate themselves with him and his audience. We also debated his views on

Israel and Hamas, how he thinks about the words he chooses and his theory of political organizing.

It's a conversation you need to hear for yourself so we will get right into it. But before we do,

please consider becoming a crooked media subscriber if you haven't already so that you don't miss

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America. So head to crooked.com slash friends and subscribe. All right, here's Hassan Piker.

Hassan, welcome back to the show. It's good to be back. You've somehow become the most argued about

figure and democratic politics over the last few weeks. So I'd like to have a conversation about

why that is that is hopefully more nuanced and useful than much of the discourse. Yeah.

I mean, I go to show how serious we are as a movement, as an opposition party that this is the

primordial cause central to the discourse. Yeah. Just quick recap to set the table for people who

lucky for them maybe haven't been following along. A few weeks ago, third-way,

central's democratic thing tank published at Wall Street Journal Op-Ed calling on Democrats

to stop engaging with you. They describe you as anti-American, anti-woman, anti-western,

and anti-semitic. Their evidence is a long list of things you've said, which we'll get into.

They also specifically single out a few Democrats, us for inviting you to crooked con last year,

Rokana and Michigan Senate candidate Abdul El-Sayed, also a former crooked host who a few of us have

donated to and who you campaigned with this week, which fueled even more controversy. Now,

you and I scheduled this conversation weeks ago. I'm sure some people have had enough

Hassan Pekker discourse, but I do think it's an important conversation to have because like,

you know, even though you and I have different politics, we've actually debated our disagreements

on this show. I think there's value in doing that in person in a format that's not mediated by

algorithms or fucking five minute cable hit. So with all that said, here's why I want to start.

I think the rallies with Abdul this week were the first time you've been a featured speaker

at a candidate's actual campaign event. And I wonder how you self-proclaimed Marxist anti-imperialist

decided to be a campaign surrogate for a democratic candidate, even when it's progressive as Abdul.

What was your thinking there and like, what has made you get more involved in democratic politics?

So I've been very involved in democratic politics for years at this point, but with AOC,

Bernie Sanders and you know, Rashid Tuleeb, Ilhan Omar, who I'll be interviewing later today.

But I've never actively, I guess, stumped for a candidate and I never, I didn't even realize,

maybe I'm too like, I'm not old school enough to understand this, but for me, the difference

between Abdul coming on my stream, which I've done many times prior to this and me like going to

deer born and us working out together and eating kebabs, is probably more significant than me going

on a rally and like talking for five minutes in front of a live audience. So I never thought of

that as like this major new step. I guess it is because the DC bubble was like freaking out about

it where they're like, how dare you do this? This is the most devastating thing anyone's ever done.

And I like the guy. There's just the reason why I did this. Like I trust him. I think he has a

lot of great policy opinions. I think he is much more responsive to the needs of the base than

some of the other Democrats that I've been very upset with for many, many years. And I think he's

exactly the type of guy that the party needs to have more of. My goal has been very clear since

Zoran when we linked up during the primary. It was a very crowded field and he was able to like

cut through that noise and become a beloved mayor of New York now. I want to get people into

positions of power that I align with politically, even if we don't 100% agree. I even have

disillusionment. Zoran from time to time. I'll text them some stuff. I'll be like, go cut this out.

What are you doing? But at the end of the day, I understand that politics is in some ways the

art of the possible. And I see that. My expectation is never going to be someone coming out and

advocating to seize the means of production. I'm reformist to my left, which does exist. For those

of you out there, there are people who are further to the left than me who will say elections, bourgeois

elections are unnecessary and all you're doing is taking away revolutionary potential and feeding

it back into the Democratic Party. You're a shepherd for the Democrats and therefore a reactionary

of social fascist even. But all of that stuff is going to break the brains of your audience. I shouldn't

even begin to identify that. I think if someone wants to improve the material conditions of the

working class in this country, if someone says no to unnecessary endless wars and advocates to

bring our productive output back home to work on ourselves, in some ways not a dissimilar message

to the lie that Maga told about isolationism and no new wars and being the peace president. If

someone actually identifies with that and wants to advance that agenda, I'm going to be there

for them just to broaden it out because I do think it's useful for people who don't know and are

now wondering like, what's he up to? What does he want? What is your theory of political change?

Like, how do we get from where we are now? What is the mechanism to get from where we are now to the

world that you want to live in? Oh, great question. So I am a firm believer that one of the

biggest issues in the United States of America, which is the heart of empire, one of the most

capitalist countries, is a proto-capitalist country before capitalism and industrial revolution even

happen, is the idea that most people do not have class consciousness. Most Americans don't understand

that they're a working class and that there are people who generate most of their revenue, most of

their net worth off of capital accumulation, but the overwhelming majority of America, and the 99

percent as Bernie likes to call it, they don't do that. They get a regular wage. They're not

business owners or even if they're business owners, they oftentimes operate their own business.

So like, the overwhelming amount of money that they're making that they're putting in their pocket

is coming from their own labor. And they don't identify with that at all. They're hopped up on

American exceptionalism, American individualism. So my goal is to instill class consciousness in people

and help them identify what would be more like, help them identify who is actually causing harm to

them. And in my assessment, it's the billionaires and the corporations who actually control the

levers of power in this country and not the vulnerable populations, the marginalized communities

that the Republicans very effectively take people's frustrations and redirect them towards.

It's not a trans person or a Guatemalan migrant that's raising your rent. It's your landlord. It's

not a trans person or a Mexican undocumented immigrant that's working in a field that is

responsible for why your grocery prices are going up. That's greed flation and corporate

consolidation at the heart of that issue. And when you think about your own show and your own

audience, what do you think actually changes people's minds? What has worked for you?

I mean, talking to them and explaining to them exactly what I'm explaining right now,

which is that I mean, I had this conversation with the Oval where I felt like,

a light switch came on in his mind when we were having this back and forth. When I said

exactly this thing about, it's not a trans person that's hurting you at all, but it's in a weird

that the Republicans are constantly angling it in that direction and never really talking about

big corporations and big pharma and all of these capital owners, all these very powerful people

that basically run the show in an almost bipartisan manner. And when I have that conversation with

a lot of regular Americans, ordinary Americans that haven't put a lot of thought into it, they go

wait a minute, that does kind of make sense. I feel like that's not only do I think that that's true,

but I also feel like it's a very effective way to try to unlock people's class consciousness.

Yeah. And sort of build coalitions of people who are different. You have over three million followers

on Twitch, 1.75 million on YouTube. I saw that you've done something like 20,000 hours of live streaming

that is all off the cuff political takes and responding to viewers in real time, which I imagine

must be like constantly fighting with people in your mentions. Yes.

Real time. Yes. No, exactly. I mean, so I am not surprised that you've said some stupid and

offensive things. I'm even less surprised that you've said stuff that sounds even worse when it's

clipped out of context. Here's what I'm wondering. As you've grown your audience and influence,

and as you've gotten more directly involved in electoral politics, do you feel a responsibility to

choose your words more carefully or at least in ways that are less likely to be misconstrued?

Yes and no. So yes, because obviously I don't want to cause any harm to any of the candidates that

I'm associating with or this movement that I am obviously a part of. What I like to call the left

flank candidates or the Bernie crats. People who are more responsive to the needs of the working class

folks all around the country. I don't want to ever be a burden to them because being associated

with them is not beneficial for me. The way that DC media perceives the situation is like, oh my

god, he went out to stump for Abdul. All of a sudden, he's like a legitimate political force. I'm like,

I've been doing that already. I was infinitely more effective sitting at home and just talking shit.

Then I am sitting in front of a live audience with like 600 people, although that's still good.

And I enjoy it personally. And I do that for candidates that I trust, candidates that I want to

endorse and fight for. But I'm already fundraising for a lot of these folks. Small-dollar donations

from all around the country keep flooding into all the campaigns that I work with.

But yeah, I am cognizant of that. On the other hand, one thing that I'm thinking about is, well,

this medium lends itself so perfectly to being clipped out of context. And I think we are now in a

media environment where that doesn't matter as much. I mean, Donald Trump's the president,

right? He is the president. It's not just his words that are messed up, that galvanize some of the

most reactionary forces in this country and normalize some of the most heinous, most toxic repulsive

types of politics. I mean, he ran on, he campaigned on saying Haitians are eating cats and dogs.

That's unbelievable. That's white supremacy through and through. Anyone. So on the one hand,

I think that we are now existing in a very different media environment. The one that like MS now,

New York Times and CNN want to exist in. I think that kind of stuff is over. Like, you're a

vulgar person as an independent content creator. I think most people don't care about that. Most

people care about who you are and what your values are and what you represent. And I've been able

to withstand these kinds of smear campaigns on even the independent side far before. I ever

drew the eye of RNC research department. So, and as a matter of fact, they're using a lot of

the same clips that I've had to deal with that are circulating on the internet anyway. So it's not,

it doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't do anything to my audience. My audience knows what I

stand for. They're listening to me for eight hours a day. They know exactly what my values are.

I'm sure it might stop some people or maybe cause them to second guess whether or not they want

to be charitable to what I have to say. And that's a problem. But at the end of the day,

most people that see that stuff go, wait a minute, I have the capacity to, I have free will. I can,

I have the capacity to think critically. What's going on here? Why is the Republican party saying this,

claiming that this guy is racist or claiming that this guy is a misogynist? When I know what the

Republican party stands for, let me go check him out. And I think a lot of people do that. And then

they check me out. And then they realize, oh, they were just lying. That's that simple. And I

have experienced this myself and have thought about it over the last couple of weeks because I'm like,

if I did not know you, if I hadn't interviewed you before, if I hadn't been familiarize myself with

your content, which I came to probably later than most. And I just read the coverage of the last

couple of weeks. I would be like, oh, yeah, he's a fucking asshole. Yeah. To be fair, I am. I am.

Yeah. But you're an asshole. And I think in different ways than you are being portrayed. Yeah.

I'm an asshole to bullies. Like I bully bullies. I'm an asshole to reactionaries across the board.

I'm an asshole to Nazis. It doesn't matter to me. If you're right wing, if you're a Nazi,

if you're a reactionary, I'm not going to be nice to you. And I don't think we should be nice to

them. They're not nice to us. They're not nice to random, uninitiated people. They're not

nice to entire swath of the population. So yeah, if that's your ideology, that's your world view.

I find that to be very damaging. I find that to be very toxic. I find that to be violent and

dangerous. I'm going to fight back. I'm going to use some mean words every now and then. Yeah.

Well, and it's less than mean words, right? Because like at least for me, because I was looking through

the the hit list, which I want to get into here. All right. Or at least some of them. Because

there's somewhere I'm like that was clearly taken out of context, whatever it there's somewhere.

I think like the underlying point is still worth debating or talking about. So the one I've seen

just about everywhere is I think this is the most common one is your comment that America deserve

9-11. Yeah. Which you walked back in 2019 by calling it inappropriate, a poor attempt at sat

tire and said that you meant America, the government, not Americans as people. But do you still think

that America is a country deserve 9-11? Because saying America or any country deserve to be attacked

to me is different than saying you understand why they were attacked and what actions might have

contributed to that attack. Like I get I get the blowback argument. Yeah. But that is different

than deserved. Deserved is like a more of a normative kind of. Yeah. That was me responding to Daniel

Crenshaw, ironically enough, on the Jorogan experience where he was making this ridiculous argument

that we have to go out and fight these people all the time because they hate us because they

a-ness. And I was like, that's insane. That's not the reason. And this was actually echoed by Robert

Kagan, one of the godfathers of neo conservatism just last week where he came out and was like, yeah,

actually we have been messing around in the Middle East for upwards of 60 years. And that's

precisely the reason why 9-11 happened. And that's precisely the reason why these guys say death

to America and Iran, for example. So like that was exactly the same sentiment that I've addressed a

million times over. But of course in this moment it was a heated response, an impassioned response.

And people will consistently use that against me over and over again. Some people hear that and they

think I understand exactly what's going on here. Some people hear that and go, how heinous?

Oh, my stars and garters. I am clushing my pearls. I don't even want to learn what this is about.

I don't want to understand what he's saying. His name is Hassan. He must be al-Qaeda.

I mean, and that's fine. You also can like bring it to the present because like I have a very real

fear right now that because of what Donald Trump has done in Iran, he has increased the risk of

terror attacks on Americans abroad and maybe even here. And God forbid one of those happens.

We will know that it could be a result of or at least Donald Trump will have contributed to that.

100% be a direct byproduct of everything that we've done. It's like impossible not to recognize

it at this point. Yeah. And it's very easy at that point for me to say, oh, now we know what led to

that versus yeah, you know what? We deserved it. Like I wouldn't say that. Yeah. But I would say like

I understand. Civilians don't deserve to die. I mean, I'm anti-civilian murder. I'm anti-civilian

dead. That's like one of my one of my first principles is that I'm anti-imprilist. I'm anti-war

for that reason because I don't want civilians to die. I don't want random people to die. I don't

even want people to go out and die in the process of trying to kill people.

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world this giving day donate at UNrefugees.org slash pod save. I do I want to say in the theme of

violence just for a minute because I think it connects to another comment of yours that's been

circulating. This is one from January. Hamas is a thousand times better than a fascist settler

colonial apartheid state. I stand by that. Well, so I will say this is the one that bothered me most

when I first heard it. And I remember I remember having a reaction to it when I first saw it in

January. Because I think even if you believe what happening Gaza is genocide and what's happening

in the West Bank is apartheid. Those are different claims from Hamas is a thousand times better

because like Hamas is an organization that has massacred raped kidnap civilians on October 7th.

They've also been catastrophic for Palestinians by almost every measure. They governance corruption.

They made choices. They knew would result in massively in death of their own people. So my

question is when you say Hamas a thousand times better, do you actually mean that or is that a

rhetorical move or like a solidarity signal? Like what what I mean, it's all of the above. I do

mean it. I think it's a rhetorical move because it frustrates a lot of people. I've also said I'm a

harm reduction voter. I'm a less cerebral voter. And therefore I would vote for Hamas over Israel

every single time because I'm looking at the situation as a paramilitary organization that has

like a political party as well, a poll at bureau as well, that is entirely comprised not as an

alien force, but of the orphan children that have had their parents killed by an apartheid state

that has been dominating the lives of Palestinians for 80 years at this point. And they've done a genocide

at this point as well, but like it started off with the Nakba and has only evolved as technology

has gotten better to become more heinous. And Gaza is this hermetically sealed area that many people

correctly point to as the world's largest open air prison before October 7. So my perspective on

this has always been that I think that Hamas's tactics, which I oppose at times, right, or it's like

internal governance issues are secondary to this conversation because they're it's like placing a

lot of emphasis on the Nat Turner rebellion or or instead of talking about the much larger,

much more consequential, much bigger harm that, you know, chattel slavery was to black people to

like sell black people and to rape them and and treat them as though they weren't human. I think

that's a far larger systemic force that is is going to be is going to make the Nat Turner rebellion

look inconsequential in comparison to the greater harm. Same with for example, the the ANC,

the ANC had a militant wing called the MK. I'm not going to try to even attempt to say it and,

you know, Nelson Mandela went to prison and was was imprisoned by the apartheid state. And MK and

the ANC did a lot of stuff to collaborators. The collaborators that have worked alongside the apartheid

administration, they would they had a practice called necklacing where they would put a tire

around the necks of collaborators and light it on fire. It was heinous practice. And it was of course

condemned after the fact, but none of the people that were engaged in it, if I recall correctly,

even in the Truth and Reconciliation Committee were actually legally charged for it because there's

this understanding when we look back at like some of the more heinous things that resistance groups have

done and militancies have done, we matched that up against the far larger, far broader systematic

violence that an entire people have been subjected to. And it makes me feel silly to consistently,

you know, talk about what Hamas has done, especially when there has been in October 7 times a

thousand, if not more than a thousand at this point, in the hands of Israel against the Palestinian

population and its entirety. I mean, they're doing an October 7 to Lebanon right now as we speak.

Just take it from the Palestinian perspective. Don't you think Hamas's decision to attack on

October 7th and to massacre civilians on October 7th was a catastrophic mistake for them,

for the Palestinian people. Like do you think the Palestinian people are in any way better off

than they were before October 7th? No, of course not. But at the end of the day, that's why I'm asking

more. I mean, it's more for me like a resistance movements wherever they are need to come up with

strategies. And I think, I guess my view is, and I understand that there is a huge power

imbalance here, but I think that resistance movements that engage in mass slaughter or civilian

targeting, they just have less success than resistance movements that are non-violent.

I mean, it's obviously in history. Oh, I know we've had a revolution here. I get it.

I want to agree with you. I get our revolution. Yeah, but yeah. But I do think if you look back

over the last hundred years, non-violent movements have been more successful than armed resistance

movements. That's just the worst-handed action. I think it might have been Kwame Tori who said it,

you can only shame someone who has a conscience. And if your enemy has none, it's impossible to

get them to react to your civil movement because the Palestinians have tried civil movements.

I mean, the great march of return where hundreds of Palestinians were sniped directly by the

Israeli occupation forces. And they openly celebrated that too. They said, we have an

accounting of every single bullet that we shot at the Palestinians. And then they had to

delete that. I mean, this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the war crimes go

lower that we're talking about because even the everyday maintenance of apartheid, which Israel

is an incredibly violent endeavor that maintenance requires you to constantly be a military force

that is ever present, that is dominating and ritualistically humiliating and subjugating

millions of people. So my perspective is always looking at this from the perspective of the people

that are being dominated rather than placing a lot of the emphasis on structural violence or rather

on state-backed violence, which we have a predisposition to lean into no matter what.

Someone fights back against the cop. The automatic suspicion is, well, the police are actually

maintaining law in order, so it must be a criminal, right? That might not always be the case. So I

like to look at this stuff with a more open-minded framework where I can try to figure out exactly what

led to a day like October 7th, that was unbelievably violent, right? And I think it's pretty clear

that 75 years at that point of ethnic cleansing in apartheid and subjugation was a big part of

the driving force. And as far as Hamasco's, we oftentimes talk about just Hamas. It's almost like

a catch-all term. Hamas is only one component of the Palestinian resistance. The Alexa flood was

actually conducted not only by Hamas, but Palestinian Islamic Jihad's own militant forces,

PFLP, DFLP, and numerous other, even including Fata militias as well that still existed in Gaza. So

this was a military operation initially that was conducted by virtually every single active

organization inside of Gaza. So it's not, that's why I always say, Hamas is not an alien entity in

the way that we think about them or we say, oh, they are, they're these like evil oppressors

of the Palestinian people. Are there disagreements within the Palestinian coalition against Hamas'

governance? Absolutely. No people are a monolith. But the only thing that every single Palestinian,

with the exception of those who work for like the Atlantic Council or whatever that are there to just,

you know, do regime propaganda, do Israel propaganda. With the exception of those people,

every Palestinian I've ever talked to, Christian Palestinians, who might even have major disagreements

with Hamas, who might even be critical of Hamas. We'll always say the number one thing that we want

is the end of the occupation, is the end of the apartheid. The number one thing we want is dignity

and sovereignty. And that is what Hamas has been trying to achieve militarily. The message that

you just, that Palestinians want, and to the occupation, dignity, self-determination. Yeah.

For people who are not as familiar with the issue as you, and, but that you want to reach, and that

you want to, because I assume the purpose here is to build a movement that supports Palestinians

self-determination. And if I was someone who didn't know a lot about it, and I knew that Hamas

committed October 7th, and then I heard a message that Hamas is better than Israel, I would be

less receptive to the person delivering that message than I would someone saying,

liquid Israel has done, and what the Palestinian people really want, aside from this organization

that is serving them poorly, is most Palestinians just want dignity and they want an end to the

impression, like I would feel like, okay, I could, I could get behind that, and I'm going to be more

attracted to that message. I have a policy of saying the truth unconditionally, and, and standing

by my principles, even if that's sometimes hard to hear. And that's precisely what I did after

October 7th on October 8th when I went live and, and talked about the, the systematic forces that

have led to October 7th, and a lot of people were not receptive to that message at all, and some of

which actually became haters of mine and left the community where I, I lost a, a third of my entire

community for like the first year of, of Israel's maximum violence, Israel's genocide, where people

simply did not want to hear that message at all. But I know, and I knew back then, that as long as

I say the truth, that one, history will vindicate me, and two, as long as I say the truth, there will

always be people who are more charitable and more receptive to that regardless, because I, I see no

reason in, in sheltering people from that perspective. Do I obviously manage in a much longer format,

a much longer conversation like the one that we're having? Yes, I am, obviously more capable of

explaining that position, but I think saying what I said there that Hamas, the thousands of

lives better than Israel cuts across in that, cuts across that narrative in a way that I think

even liberals have to think about, because someone who is, is immediately reactive to that kind of

sentiment that goes, wait a minute, but liberal, but Israel is a liberal democracy. It's the only

democracy in the region. Why is he saying that? They, they understand at least one part of it,

where they think, okay, he's saying, you know, Hamas killed 1,200 people, a third of them were

soldiers, a third of them were, you know, a military, people who were, like, you know, active duty

in the military, and then civilians as well, Israel has done that, you know, a thousand fold to

the Palestinians. So I think like even in the most reductive ways, even in the most reductive ways

to try to comprehend what I'm saying there, people can understand that. Like I think people are not

stupid. We assume that they're stupid. I will tell you, I'll tell you how it landed with me, because

I was like, it wasn't like, oh, wait, why did he say that? Israel is some great, I was like,

Israel has committed just horrific atrocity. Like, like, I, you know, I have moved so far on this,

but I'm like, Hamas is fucking, what did they do? Like, October 7th was catastrophic for them.

It was also like, we've all seen the images, like, like, kids and people and a lot of like,

very, these are like leftist peacenicks, Israelis that are concerted and they fucking massacred

them. And I'm like, these people are like, I just want to have, and I do think this important

politics, I have like universal principles, right? Which is like, if violence, violence is always

wrong, civilian violence is always wrong, targeting children and women always wrong, no matter

which side does it, right? And I do think that it's important not just from a moral perspective,

but from like a building a political coalition perspective to say, if I think one thing is wrong,

one action is wrong on this side, then it also has to be wrong on the other side,

yeah. Even if there is an obvious power imbalance, and even if there is a history,

but we don't always do that as my point. Oh, I know. We don't, we don't do that when the dust

is settled. We don't do that when the historic forces have played itself out and we look back at

it. And I, I don't see a reason not to apply that same interpretation because I see both,

I see the civilians on both sides as human beings worthy of dignity. And I think a lot of people

don't realize that they do have a little bit of an implicit bias where we've been trained as

Americans living here during the global war on terror to collateralize one side and to see the

other side as like a European style country that's under attack. So we have the capacity

to see the the violence that Israelis are subjected to as like real human beings, maybe even your

neighbor dying in the hands of scary brown people as opposed to Palestinians that die entire city

blocks reduce the rubble is something that we've seen so many times on the TV whether it be the

series of war, whether it be, you know, Iraq, Afghanistan. So we automatically collateralize

those those the lives of those Palestinians. So that's part of the reason why those those images

are I think the most pop like that is what personally has moved me. Yeah, the most is seeing

those images like I remember like in in you know post-doctor 7th and we talked about it a lot here

and and the student protest movement and all the craziness over that. And I remember thinking like

it was there's that there was that Columbia student who I think was eventually suspended or expelled

or whatever for saying like you're like getting killed more Zionists and all that, you know. And

I remember thinking to myself like I someone says something like that and it's just a reaction

that I can't even like it's just a human reaction to be like oh maybe I don't want to be with these

like this is bad. I don't want to hear like that's now you want to kill Zionists or you know what

like that's fucking crazy that's hurting your movement. Yeah, no, I've been look here's the thing.

I've been around protest movement is my whole professional media career for a very long time.

I've been doing this for a decade plus there's going to be cringe people there's going to be

passionate people to say unhinged things that I totally disagree with. Yeah, at the end of the day

this is exactly what happened with Black Lives Matter as well where you know there'd be like

there'd be someone that says like yeah, fry him like bacon and then the media would laser in on that

to disparage the entire movement. So I have a policy of looking at what the actual movement

represents do I identify with those values do I agree with them rather than you know key

offenders that have said something that I consider to be heinous as well right. And I don't spend

a lot of time or put a lot of emphasis on people like that because I've been to these campuses.

I've been to these encampments and they were some of the best organized movements I have ever seen

they had messaging discipline they had all of the right things they had protest marshals that

would keep everything intact they refused to talk to the media unless they had someone who was

doing communication for the entire encampment that would talk to the media and they still got brutalized.

UCLA is the one I went to I couldn't believe it like these these you know pro-Israel groups

were they they set up these massive they set up this like massive auditorium or not auditorium

I don't know what it's called but like a projector where they were blasting October 7 footage and

calling these student encampment student protesters like heinous words they threw fireworks into the

encampment they brutalized these students and these weren't students that were doing that these were

pro-Israel people that just came from around the area right and and I couldn't believe what I saw

where like the media's coverage was either both sides of it or oftentimes siding with the pro-Israel

with the pro-Israel people so like for me again it's I look at the values and I also don't place a

lot of emphasis on like whatever the media narrative is because we love doing that yeah we love having

a conversation about like whose feelings are being heard in the western world when the conversation

should be about you know who's dying in Gaza

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On Zionism you know being an anti Zionist when you say you're an anti Zionist are you

rejecting the premise that a Jewish homeland is a legitimate project at all or is your

anti Zionism specifically about the policies and practices of the Israeli state as it exists today.

I think Zionism is a fascist ideology it really it true because I think part of the issue is

like a definitional issue for two. Yeah, for me obviously but I do think that like there's probably

a lot of I think a lot of probably secular liberals and even secular Jews in this country who think

of Zionism as like I like the idea of a Jewish homeland and do not think ethno state do not think any

of that other stuff and then there's people who you know and who very much define it as no it must

always be a Jewish majority state and if democracy and equal rights come second then so be it.

Yeah well that is what has happened right. Which is defacto that's what we have right now.

It's the fact of what we have right now and it was something that we were always going ahead in

the direction of because I mean even Stalin was a big advocate of Israel initially I mean they

were the ones who the trafficked weapons in 1947 that was you yeah they were used on Palestinian

villages by way of Czech Slovakia right illegally going through the blockade. There was this idea

that like initially labor Zionism and you know Bangerin was a socialist right like this was going to be

like almost like a Marxist project but but it was just ethnic cleansing from the start and my assessment

on Zionism as an ideology is is not that different from Albert Einstein's assessment of Zionism

because when he saw Dior Yassin and these and the violence that the early Zionist brigades were

engaging in Haganah Irgun Lehi these militia movements before the idea existed before Israel existed

and he was actually asked to be the first president of Israel he wrote about what Zionism was

turning into and he warned that what he was seeing was exactly what the Nazis were doing and he

warned about it he said if we do not have a commitment to binationalism if we do not have a

commitment to the people that are already living there the atrocities that I'm seeing that you know

Zionist brigades are engaging in right now committing right now against Palestinians is going to turn

into exactly what the Nazis have done and he was right he saw it ahead of time I mean he he knew

what the Nazis were he lived through it right and and so my my perspective is shaped by people

who have done either extensive research on this like you know Israeli historian like Elon

Popeye obviously lame or or people who have lived through this process many of which are Jews

who have lived through this process and and could not comprehend it one of the first people that

interviewed after October 7 was Dr. Ofer Kassif he is the only Jewish anti Zionist in the

Knesset there's a Palestinian citizen of Israel who's also an anti Zionist in the Knesset they have

like two people basically very it's a lone voice but they exist right I care about the perspective

of people like that as well so I so I develop a better understanding of like what it looks like

to have to fight fascist forces in the country that you're a part of in the country that you love

in the country that you want to change in a better change towards a better future towards a

better trajectory because I see it as the same fight that I'm fighting here in America because

Zionism at the end of the day like I said is is a ethno religious supremacist ideology that is

exterminationist and it's in many respects no different than what we see in MAGA right Christian

nationalism that is a fascist ideology I don't think you would disagree with that right no

little bit and there's I mean there's also ethno nationalism Israel has like laws that have put

this into place yeah but like yeah there's de facto ethno nationalism in in many different countries

around the world is you could make the same critique of Hindu nationalism the Turkish treatment

it also again right things that I Japanese immigration policy things that I oppose vehemently and

things that I talk about extensively oftentimes people will yell at me for my criticism of both of

those things yeah you've said you a poor anti-Semitism you've drawn a distinction between being

anti-Israel and anti-Semitic yeah I take that face value here's the harder question like

where exactly do you draw the line because I think I think most serious people agree that anti-Semitism

isn't automatically anti-Semitism yeah but there is disagreement where the line runs in specific

cases and I think you know some of your rhetoric whether it's out of context or not has landed in

the gray zone like calling ultra orthodox Jews in bread comparing liberal Zionists to liberal Nazis

the pig dogs comments like the dog one is I didn't even know that was like a thing did you know

that it was like no yeah I don't because even Jake Tapper when he brought it up he's like I don't

know what this is but he was like clearly reading a quote from in front of him he's like they do

well I know I was there and I'm like yeah I've seen it and there's like well there's it's it's

one of those yeah I didn't even it's like one of those things I guess a larger question is like how

do you think about as you're talking about this drawing the line in a way where you're like okay if

I'm going to you know I'm I am anti Zionist I want to make this argument I want to talk with

project but I really don't want anyone to take it as anti-Semitic yeah not just because it hurts

your feelings but because you're trying to you're trying to build a political movement yeah well

it's not just because I want to build a political movement it's because I also genuinely

of poor anti-Semitism I so it's a great question it's one that I answer all the time because this

is a real problem right now where like anti-Semitism is growing in this country it's undeniable as it

historically always has whenever Israel does these sieges the the mowing of the lawn operations

and it's doing it and it's tying itself to Judaism in this very sinister way and and people

see that and they think okay well you know this is the Jewish state doing this maybe it's the Jews

right there's already a lot of of people that have these opinions about you know Jewish

billionaires and Jewish millionaires controlling the media controlling the banking system so like

it pairs up perfectly with what they're seeing yeah and we've definitely seen a great deal of that

right so what I try to do is stress the importance and showcase that this this attitude

is not monolithic inside of the American Jewry the reason why I think it's very important even though

Muslim guys so most people when they hear me say that they don't give a shit right because they're like

yeah you're you're going explaining but the the reason why I stress that importance is because it's

true I mean there's a there's a funny saying it's like what two Jews three opinions right like no

group are no group is monolithic and Jewish Americans certainly are not they have very different

assessments of what's going on and we see that we see that in the polling that is conducted right

we see it with Israel as well yeah yeah exactly no I mean well Israel is a little bit different because

like at that at a certain point there is an overwhelming force of people who are on we're there

it's a different perspective yeah so what I what I show always the people is that there's a

difference between a lot of Jewish institutions and how Jews actually feel and I actually sometimes

will make a plea to not only my Jewish fans but just to whoever is listening and hopefully people

will take away this message as well to try to separate Israel from their institutions and to show

themselves as as if you have if you consider what Israel is doing to be repugnant then then stress

that there is that distinction between a Jewish institution that you might be a part of and and how

much they celebrate Israel or how much they try to fundraise for the idea for example or do

settler fairs which are illegal inside a synagogues right because from what my experience there are a

lot of Jewish advocacy organizations in this country and a lot of Jewish institutions in this country

that simply masquerade as Jewish institutions and Jewish advocacy organizations when they're just

pro-Israel advocacy organizations and institutions the adl is a great example of this the apartheid

defense league as I like the column led by Jonathan Greenblatt is is is is very obviously not invested

in combating anti-Semitism at all and is simply using anti-Semitism in this cynical way to attack

critics of Israel prominent critics of Israel that have spent decades fighting anti-Semitism and

still continue to do so myself included and um that separation that lack of separation rather

is teaching Americans who have not been inundated with uh you know Zionist indoctrination who haven't

you know who don't have any association with Jews other than watching Seinfeld and thinking oh

you know they control the media but they make good movies right like that's the attitude of the

average American about Jewish people who are some I think the most celebrated religious uh minority

in this country most celebrated religious group in this country um I don't know where it is right

now but that's what the polling is consistently um and the least is I think Mormons weirdly enough

but anyway um surprising but uh the the the the way that people see it is they they watch heinous

violence unfold and they see uh the Israeli state call itself the Jewish state and then they see

Americans American Jews uh and and uh Jewish institutions say yes that is the Jewish state Zionism

is important to us it is the most important thing we are tied to Israel in this inseparable way we

do care about it and you as an American should shut up you as an American should be cancelled you

as an American should not have a job if you speak out against Israel because you're being anti-Semitic

what lesson are we teaching Americans we're teaching them that every Jewish person demonstrates

dual loyalty which is false it's a trope it's a lie it's not true but that's what we're teaching

people and we're also teaching people that um everything that Israel does it does for Jews

every time we call Israel the Jewish state that's what we're doing that's what we're teaching

regular Americans so I try to combat those forces on a daily basis and ironically enough I would

say this like at my size um in the streamer universe especially uh where where most of the prominent

uh most of the prominent Israel critics are you know Candace Owens Tucker Carlson

Nick Fuentes and many other right wing forces they don't care about making that distinction

I do so it blows my mind that groups like the uh apartheid defense league spend most of their time

trying to de-platform me and when you hear them too you'll hear and when some of them are just

all conspiracy all the time but like you know a Tucker Carlson's a good example they'll be like

he'll do like a a very thoughtful critique of Israel and then suddenly like launch into a conspiracy

where you're like okay now we're just put this is just now we're into anti-Semitic territory now

it's like Jewish conspiracy for this and that and the other thing and it's like they do yeah it's

it is a it is a real difference but I do think that like look I find as someone who has um has

not always talked about this issue but has a lot recently like it feels often like a minefield

as you're talking about it because I very much like the idea that um I would say anything anti-Semitic

is like horrifying to me or you know I believe anti-Semitism is very very real um but it is

quite difficult because a lot of very pro-Israel voices will say that's anti-Semitic by because

of you critiqued but there's also a lot of stuff that Israel does or or Israel advocacy groups do

that objectively does look insane when you explain it like like one of the things that I've

talked about uh or one of the things that I talked about early on was like sometimes you hear

something that Israel is done and you're like are did they did they do that are you being anti-Semitic

right now and then you find out you're like oh my god they did do that that is insane so like there

is that element of it too where on the one hand a lot of defenders of Israel will call like

anything that you say blood libel like oh Israel kills children that's blood libel how dare you say

that it's like well I've seen it like I've seen the children the numbers are there and I've also

personally seen some of the children that have been murdered uh with these uh bombing campaigns right

so that already undermines the the impact of of blood libel as a as a way to like to have a

conversation about blood libel to begin with which is a real historic wrong a real historic way to

associate uh uh people of the Jewish faith with like you know uh whatever heinous acts that uh

led to the pogroms right um so you're undermining anti-Semitism every time you do that but then

also simultaneously you're teaching people that like this is a good thing like this is some that

you defend this is something you consider to be defensible and you're doing that while you're

associating with Judaism it's it's the way I explain I I delivered a speech at Oxford Union

a year and a half ago at this point and the way I explained it to people and at the time the change

in attitude in the Western world was not so calcified right um but my positions were obviously the same

and I explained to people look what a lot of people don't understand with this dangerous

conflation I will give you a warning as a Muslim American who has lived in the United States of

America since 2009 and his experience is Islamophobia a lot of people think that Israel is still

you know an acceptable country it's no longer an acceptable country it will become a pariah state

if it hasn't already it has always been a pariah state for the third world but now in the first

world in the developed nations people are beginning to recognize Israel as a pariah state the

previous ways of defending Israel by saying it's the most moral nation on earth it's the only

democracy in the region no matter how racialized those tropes were and how silly they were

it worked because most people were oblivious to what Israel does now they know so this would be

equivalent to me running around and and saying you can't criticize Saudi Arabia because the Mecca is

there you know Medina is there the Kaaba is in Saudi Arabia you cannot criticize Saudi Arabia's blockade

against Yemen for example because you're Islamophobic this would be the equivalent of me running around

as a as a Muslim saying I'm a Muslim and our institutions our mosques are fundraising for ISIS

and if you criticize ISIS if you if you dare say anything about the Islamic state that are trying

to implement a caliphate that's true Islam you're Islamophobic and then the media was also defending

that position and all of our institutions were defending that position well I also think it's

easier now for unfortunately we are very unfortunately for Americans to understand because we are

seeing something like that happen here in the United States under under Trump but also like I think

yeah this is this will sound crazy but I thought the only one of the most compelling things maybe

one of the only compelling things Joe Biden said after October 7th right after October 7th was

above the yeah right yeah it was that um he warned he he gave a warning to Israel don't do what we

did after 9-11 yeah don't make that mistake now yeah and then we know what happens yeah we all know

what happened Benjamin and yeah right we all know what happened from there but I think about that

often because and now all these you know these years later as as Trump has from second term has

you know he's charging towards a you know a authoritarian state as well I'm always like how can

you like of course it's easy to imagine another country doing something like this because it's

happening here yeah that's why it's that's why it's that's why it's not it's not it doesn't have to

do with anything about the specific religion it's what happens when people are in power and they just

like to use that power to oppress other people like that is the um all right let's let's get back to

American politics before we before we close um I mean I would say Israel politics is America it is

right now yeah like you also brought up and not just like foreign policy I mean what you're talking

about is correct it's the same exact fascist forces and sometimes the same exact like ethno

religious uh attitudes like the ethno religious supremacist attitudes that is is uh you know the

guiding principle of this growing mega fascist movement in this country Steven Miller

zeggen

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We could eat a breakfast.

We got midterms in November,

2028 Democratic primaries already beginning.

We had a bunch of potential candidates

where it sharpens event in New York,

the DNC winter meeting kicked off Thursday.

How do you see your role in electoral politics

over the next few years?

I see myself as a megaphone for the people.

And if, I mean, I have, unfortunately enough

to have a fairly large platform at this point.

So the way I look at it is,

look, I have a lot of door knockers,

phone bankers, fun razors in my community,

community leaders and people that are running for office

as well, running for office themselves,

labor organizers, and the media as well.

So like, these are some of the most tuned in people,

the politics, they're tuning in the politics is boring.

They're tuning in the politics before the primaries, right?

And they're certainly tuning in the general.

You want to talk to these people,

because even if size-wise, they might not be the biggest force.

Like, I don't have the same audience as Joe Rogan, for example.

Their impact is outsized.

So you want to be able to convince these people that you're their guy.

And a lot of politicians have recognized that.

And it's really interesting, because like these past two weeks,

they've been writing all of these different things about

how dangerous it is.

And then Marcos shouldn't associate with me.

And then they're like, associate with us the third way instead.

And it's like, no one fucking cares about that.

But I have, you know, fielded hundreds of requests

at this point leading up to the primaries.

After those, after those articles came out,

it probably 10xed.

It's insane.

People are just like, yeah, okay, I don't care.

Yeah, please, please, let's do, let's do a campaign.

Yes, yes.

And places that you would find very interesting as well.

It's not just like, you know, radical, lefty candidates either.

There are a lot of people who are like, this is a,

this is clearly a massive audience.

You have the capacity to communicate with, you know,

young men especially.

And we want to be able to reach out to those people that we've lost.

So, you know, so that's it.

Before this, this last media cycle for you, there was one, I think in March.

You said you wouldn't vote for Gavin Newsom against JD Vance in 2028.

You vote third party.

I mean, I don't even think that's going to be a problem.

Well, I was like, a lot of people, including people who share a lot of your critiques of

the Democratic Party, hear that and think like, this is the problem.

You know, when the stakes are concrete, like, a Vance presidency,

another four years of what we're living through, you know,

the people who say they're building a movement would, you know,

like rather preserve their own power than, you know, do what winning requires.

And, you know, hold your nose and vote for what you believe would be lesser of two evils.

Like, how do you respond to that?

I realize that you are a California voter, but you have fans and, and, and audience.

I'm sure in a lot of the swing states, like, what do you tell people who follow you,

who respect you, who happen to live in swing states as we head to 20, 2026 and 2028?

I want the Democratic Party to treat me like a never-tromba.

I want the Democratic Party to treat me like a triple-trump voter, okay?

Because it turns out that's all they're tuned into.

So, if that, if what it takes for the Democrats to turn around and be like,

wait a minute, we're losing this guy, we have to win him over again or whatever.

Instead of just like taking my vote for granted as they've done so over and over again for the left flank,

then, you know, I'm going to say things that may or may not end up being true,

but it doesn't matter. We're so far out from the election anyway that it's like,

I'm just saying, look, now is your opportunity to find a good candidate instead.

But you see, but you see as we head into these that like after what we've lived through

these last years, the stakes and the stark difference between even a Democrat who you and I

might find not up to par, to say at least versus vans or whoever the fuck they put up.

Of course. I mean, I hate Republicans. I oppose them. I say that all the time.

I think that the Republicans are far more damaging, the biggest terrorists,

the biggest domestic terrorists in this country, the biggest terrorists internationally

is the Republican Party and not only that, but it's just like they like I want to fight against

the growing fascist movement in this country. My frustration with the Democrats is their

conciliatory attitude towards that and their lack of investment in this struggle, this idea that,

you know, on the one hand, you say Donald Trump's a dangerous force. I see that. I recognize that.

But then you turn around and you take on his anti-immigrant narratives and anti-immigrant messaging

from the 2020 election that you won and decide you're going to be the sincere candidate that ends up,

you know, dealing with the growth of migration in this country. It's a failure. If you were serious

about being an anti-fascist, if you're serious about combating these forces, you would take it

more seriously. You would do everything you can. You wouldn't try to win by your own coalition that

you want to build and like, you know, parade this chaining around and act as though you're going to

win with like never Trumpers or whatever. You would do everything in your power to talk to people

on your left flank. And we're seeing that now better than ever before with people like Platner

and Maine, right? That like you can actually be an outspoken leftist that says, I'm pro, I'm pro

Medicare for all. I'm an anti-Zionist. I'm anti-genocide. You have candidates like that winning

at least, you know, in Shallah winning in places like Maine and unseeding Republicans even you got

Dan Osborne, like not every single one of these guys is the same, right? They don't always have

all their positions are going to line up. Yeah, they're not uniform, but there is this broad left

flank, left populism, Bernie Krat attitude that I'm seeing from a lot of candidates. And I think

the centrist forces are very afraid of the movement that is building, the movement that is brewing

on that side because they don't want a thousand Zorons. I want a thousand Zorons to bloom. Okay.

Let a thousand Zorons blossom all around the country. That's what I want. He's very popular right

now. Yeah. Do you want to say something nice about John Assoff or do you like him enough that you

realize saying something nice about him would be bad for? Well, I don't think see, that's the thing.

I don't I don't believe that because if I believe that I would be a burden to campaigns,

I wouldn't go out and campaign with people that I like. They ironically enough did think that

way back in the day when I first actually work with Assoff campaign and then they were off

way I wore not campaign the first election that they did, right? And I worked with them privately.

I set it up for them to do something on Twitch, but I did it on background because they were worried

that like associating with me even back then would be bad for Georgia. I don't agree. I don't

think that's the case at all. You look at all these places. You look at like some of the most

conservative places in like Virginia or West Virginia even and you you pull them on things like

what do you think about the DSA? What do you think about Israel? And it's like they're a lot closer

to me than they are to an establishment Democrat, right? And the same goes for Medicare for all. So like

the idea that that we have not also polarized in the exact same way that the Republicans have is

very silly. We're in a very different political environment now and we're in a very different media

environment right now. And it's actually mainstream media that's trying to play catch up. It's

actually the establishment Democrats that are trying to play catch up to where the public is

actually at. Most people don't care about this stuff. They don't they see the clips and they go,

okay, that sounds kind of crazy. Let me go check this guy out and then they and then they hear what I

have to say because I'm not a political operative that doesn't have his own platform. I'm a

political operative with his own platform that is competitive with these other platforms that are

speaking over me. So I'm endlessly accessible. You can just come and see what I have to say. See what

I'm about and and very quickly realize that perhaps the way that I'm being presented in mainstream

news is maybe not the the right way. Maybe it's a little bit of a manufactured outrage campaign.

And one example I'll use is this. I was monitoring the situation on my flight back from Michigan

to Los Angeles, which apparently some agent of Laura Lumer took a photo of me sleeping, which was

so crazy. But while I was monitoring the situation, I was listening to Dana Bash talk about what's

going on in Iran. Then all of a sudden, Dana Bash starts talking about me and it had my choice

quotes up there, you know, like the most insincere one is me actually defending or claiming that I'm

you know, defending rapes or whatever like denying sexual harassment. I didn't bring that one up

because I do think that was the most out of context one. Yeah, that was so. You were clearly

saying rape doesn't matter. You were saying. Yeah, it doesn't justify genocide. The rape doesn't

yeah, it doesn't change the moral calculus on either side. I think which is I'm just like it's

you know, Hamas did something fucking catastrophic and committed horrible atrocities.

You're about to be able to where the rape or not exists like that. It was still a really good point.

Israel had a literal pro rape January 6th style riot after six of the Israeli occupation forces,

concentration camp guards as today, Taiman were were prosecuted for raping Palestinian prisoners.

And they and they released them. Well, I'm just like Benjamin Danielle apologized for even attempting

to prosecute them. And now one of them is like a famous television guy. I still don't think that

I think that's the most heinous thing. That's the most insane thing I've ever heard, right?

Okay, back to my universal principle. But I still don't think Israel should be

sexual sexual violence horrific no matter who commits it. Yeah, but but I don't think Israel should

should receive what Israel is done to the Palestinians in in you know, in retaliation to that. That's

my assessment. That's my attitude. But wait, what was I saying? Oh, sorry, so I saw the

new batch. So there's a guy sitting next to me and he's looking at the TV. He's also watching CNN.

He turns around. It's like that's like is that you? And I was like, no. And then I was like, yeah,

it's me. And the quote that was on screen was America deserve 9 11. So I'm going through the

motions of like this guy is sitting next to a big bearded dude on a plane on a plane associated

with 9 11. Like, and I was just like, oh, that's that's, you know, they're taking me out of

context. Like, you know what it is. And he was like, he turns me into liberal guy. He's flying

back to LA because fucking hates CNN. It's like, I hate Dana Bash. So he automatically was on my side

because because of the resentment that he has towards CNN. That is maybe that's a good place to leave

it. That's a good place to leave it. And look, we love Dana Bash here. We're going to we'll get her

here and we can talk about this too. Hassan, thanks for coming on. You'll have to come out again

next time you're causing a lot of trouble. Yeah, I mean, that's probably going to keep happening.

It seems so. Well, we'll see you. Thank you for having me. Of course.

Thanks to Hassan Piker for coming on the show. Tommy Love It and I will be back in your feeds on

Tuesday with a new episode.

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Potsayv America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is

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