Dianna Russini Resigns From The Athletic

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Hello media consumers, Brian Curtis, Joel Anderson, and Nora

Prinsiotti here.

What you're about to hear is a two-part podcast.

Part one was a long and hopefully interesting discussion

about Diana Rossini, Mike Frabel, and the perils of Insiderdom.

Part two is our reaction to the news that just broke.

You're going to hear that now.

Diana Rossini has resigned from the athletic as of Tuesday afternoon.

Nora, what's your first reaction?

I'm sad.

Even, you know, I think we can say that maybe there were things

that were pretty clearly done wrong here.

And I say that even just about the existence of the photos

that started the whole thing, regardless of what they actually represent.

And this can still be a bummer.

This can still be someone who's done a lot of good work,

who is a representative of women in a particular type of NFL media

and also just this seems painful and unpleasant, basically,

for everyone involved.

So I think there are things about this that have been

titillating since the jump.

And I have mostly tried to kind of resist those.

But I think we all fall into it in moments.

And then once the real consequences start kind of coming out,

you just go, man, stinks.

I guess I want to look at her letter that she sent to the athletic

and just tweeted out here.

I'll read a couple of paragraphs.

She says, and she's writing to Stephen Ginsburg,

who's the executive editor of the athletic.

Rossini writes, when the page six item first appeared,

that's the item that appeared last Tuesday,

the athletic supported me unequivocally,

expressed confidence in my work and pride in my journalism.

For that, I am grateful.

And the days that followed, unfortunately,

commentators in various media have engaged in self-feeding speculation

that is simply unmoored from the facts.

Moreover, this media frenzy is hurtling

forward without any regard for the review process.

The athletic is trying to complete.

It continues to escalate fueled by repeated leaks

and I have no interest in submitting to a public inquiry

that has already caused far more damage

than I am willing to accept.

She continues, rather than allowing this to continue,

I have decided to step aside now

before my current contract expires on June 30.

I do so not because I accept the narrative

that has been constructed around this episode,

but because I refuse to lend it further oxygen

or let it define me or my career.

So she's clearly saying,

I do not admit anything.

I don't accept anything that has been put out there about me,

but I'm resigning.

And not even I'm resigning because I've created the impression

of something bad, which for a journalist is its own complication.

It's not that.

It's I'm resigning because there is a media feed,

feeding frenzy and that's destructive enough

in and of itself and therefore.

What are the repeated leaks?

I refers to what he caused on that phrase too.

Yeah, I'm a little uncertain as to what she means by that.

Now I do think there is a media and social media frenzy

going on out there that is mostly attached

to prior clips of her on podcast,

talking about her husband, right?

Or instances and clips

what she's made reference to Mike Vray-Bull

or something that would have reflected upon him favorably,

but in terms of leaks, I haven't seen it.

There's not a lot.

Yeah.

I actually feel like the thing that I've seen,

the comment that I've seen be the most prominent

in terms of how the rest of sports media has responded to this

is like everybody's awfully quiet

because nobody really wants to engage with how much of this

is about the nature of insiderdom, how much of this,

if a certain type of lens was turned on,

other reporters about how they conduct themselves,

they may not like the consequences of that.

And also people have personal relationships

and it all feels icky and maybe a little bit vulnerable.

And so therefore, there are plenty of spaces

that feel or seem even actually reluctant to go there.

But maybe, I guess my guess would be,

there was that.

There was a story that I think we mentioned earlier

when we were recording that there were people

at the athletic and the New York times

that were unhappy about the nature

of the initial statement from Ginsburg,

which like that doesn't, I, how many people read that story,

how many people cared, like I, it doesn't seem

like it really rises to the level, but I guess maybe it's that.

Yeah, all the reporting from inside the times

the athletic was like people were concerned

or people are concerned, like yeah, no kidding.

Of course they're concerned about a huge story like this.

And of course they're concerned when the executive editor

puts out a statement seeming to defend the writer

or even exonerate the writer.

And then a couple of days later, they learn that

the athletic is reviewing her work or reviewing her statements

and that she's not writing anymore.

So yeah, I mean, I think, but I agree with you Nora,

if anything, people were waiting, right?

People were sort of approaching this fairly carefully

rather than jumping out, at least in terms of

byline people rather than just people on Twitter.

One reason that the only comments or remarks

I've made publicly about this was on our show on Thursday.

Partially because yeah, I think that you don't want

to get out over your skis on something like this.

This is a serious accusation both personally

and professionally to make against someone, right?

And we're not, we still really don't have a lot of facts,

but I guess there's enough conjecture

that people feel comfortable making,

forming an opinion on this.

But also, you know, there's a, I was talking,

we were talking about this off here a moment ago

and I don't know why I'm being so empathetic to Diana.

I don't know her, I've never met her, never spoken to her.

I don't think it's a great look for her as a reporter,

but I think there's something that is like overwhelming

as, you know, group chats fill up and tweets

are going off about this.

Isn't I feel like the wrong people are titillated here?

I just don't like that.

I don't like how excited people are about this

and I don't, I would argue that people

are not concerned about ethics and journalism here.

You know, that they're just excited

about the hint of sex and lies

and the opportunity to be sexist and whatever else.

I do not think people actually care

about what it means for the journalism here.

I'm willing to be wrong about that, but that's how I feel.

I think in, in, in the aggregate, I think that is true.

I do have something else I'd like to read to you guys,

which is Steven Ginsburg's post from AthleticsLac.

Again, Ginsburg being the executive editor of the athletic

because we're of course waiting to hear from him too

or just waiting to hear some kind of comment

from that organization.

He writes this, when this situation was brought

to our attention last week, there were clear concerns,

but we received a detailed explanation

and it was our instinct to support and defend a colleague

while we continued to review the matter.

As additional information emerged,

new questions were raised that became part

of our investigation.

So what he's saying there is, okay,

our knee jerk reaction is our colleague says this is untrue,

we then defend our colleague, but then new questions

were raised that became part of our investigation.

So part of what we're gonna find out,

hopefully over the next few days,

what those questions were exactly.

Right.

Presuming that everybody looked at the same photos

from the New York Post, everybody heard the explanation

that eventually wound up in the New York Post,

what changed from the athletic

and the New York Times's point of view

that then started this inquiry.

And he says in the next sentence, by the way,

that that inquiry is still going,

we will continue a standards review of Diana's work

that Mike Semmel is leading.

Now, whether that's a review of what happened in Arizona

or we're gonna look back at all her bylines

and try to determine if, you know,

if any of these bylines we now find wanting,

I don't know.

I also don't know where what that investigation

could actually yield at this point,

especially since receiving doesn't work

for the athletic anymore.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I've been in situations

before work to places where somebody got fired

for whatever sort of ethical breach.

And they kind of had to wrap it up, right?

Like it's just, you're trying to be responsive to

your subscribers and your readers or whatever

and say, all right, we did try to get to the bottom of this.

And I guess maybe it's more imperative

after you came out so strongly defending her.

Right now, there's like, all right,

like let's take this seriously and see if it impacted

her reporting in any way.

But yeah, what a, what a bad thing.

Bummer, man.

Like you said, all right, this is just kind of,

I don't know, I don't know how people could be excited

about this and feel good about this.

You know what I mean?

The one thing, most of this is, you know,

she makes it about the media frenzy

and not about, I've done something wrong

and therefore, and there's not a lot of specific denials.

The one thing that she does say is, you know,

I stand behind every story I have ever published.

You wonder how that factors into

if they are doing the version of that inquiry

that's to go back through every byline

and try to stress test it in some way.

We'll say like given the nature of some of these stories,

that seems very hard to do.

It seems hard to me, but to imagine how that would yield

any particular revelation.

Going through stories that were informed

in large part or entirely by anonymous sources.

Right.

Well, tell me this.

Is it gonna tell you who the sources were now

so that you do a thorough audit of all these stories?

Why would she do that?

Well, not even that.

Would if, okay, let's just say that the anonymous sources

Mike Vrable, you know what I mean?

Like does that make the story any less true?

You know what I mean?

I mean, I guess it's like, how you got that information

not really excited about that.

But if Mike Vrable head coach of the New England

Patriot said something and she uses it in a story,

what do you do with that?

It's a good question.

I don't know the answer to that.

It's a good question.

Yeah, it's a good question.

It's a good question.

I always say, you know, whenever we have,

somebody who does care about ethics and journalism,

at least, you know, I'm paid to do that for this podcast,

I always say that whenever there's a story like this,

my biggest gripe with anybody, and again,

it remains very much in the alleged zone

with Diana Racini.

But Mike, the one thing I was coming back to is,

the most important thing you can do is level with readers.

And that basically covers everything a journalist can do.

It covers what is at least being intimated here,

if not proven here, it covers all the little things

insiders do, which we get too later in this podcast.

You got two in round one of this podcast.

You got to level with readers.

That's the thing.

So when you talk about, you know,

let's say information came from Mike Vrable,

what did you do then?

Well, I would just argue if there is something,

I would just argue you had to level with readers

and readers should know, you know,

about your relationships with people.

They just should or alleged relationships with people.

That's what I come back to with this.

I want to ask you guys one more question.

What is Diana Racini doing next?

Look, the predictable thing, right, is

to wind up at a bar stool, at a place

where certain types of breaches are a little bit less

disqualifying and lean more heavily into personality,

dumb, then insider dumb, I guess.

Man, yeah, how many other places?

So it is bar stool and what else?

Out kick?

Is that, because we're basically

we're talking about the Jason Whitlock-Chitlin circuit.

You know what I mean?

Like, you're not, you're not, you're no longer

in the realm of the, you know, the 700,000 dollar,

you don't appear on NFL network

or the damn Patrick show, that kind of stuff.

Like there's like, there is a, you know,

a little run that she can go on,

but how many places out there like that?

And the thing I would think about is,

are those of people, if you come to them

in this sort of situation, do you really want to work with them?

Like, are they gonna, would sort of care?

Are they going to exercise as co-workers and employers

if you go to them?

But I mean, I guess, you know, you got to work too.

But the other thing I'd put out there

is just the substack.

I am an NFL insider who's worked for myself, Rob.

It's plausible.

Start a podcast.

You write for substack, you write for yourself.

I mean, you know, the thing in here she says,

I'm not gonna lend this any more oxygen,

but obviously people aren't gonna stop talking about this.

Yeah, I mean, also resigning,

like resigning probably makes that at least in the short term,

an even bigger story of anything.

So it's just really interesting too,

because I was, I was talking about this

and thinking about this a little bit earlier,

about the difference between this and politics.

Because I can run off a list of people.

I mean, I really could name their names.

I'm just not gonna do that because I don't think that's fair or kind.

Those stories are in the past now.

Who've had relationships with people on Capitol Hill.

And in fact, it is a huge part of Capitol Hill culture

for a reporter that had been dating somebody that works at a campaign

or somebody that works for a congressperson or whatever.

Like that is just the nature of the beast.

And sometimes they tell their bosses, right?

And some of these people and stories that I'm referring to in the past,

they've made their employers aware,

I've got a relationship with this person.

They're sort of adjacent to this and then they work it out or whatever.

And I mean, these are,

those are issues of real national and global import,

you know, but we just kind of seem to accept it.

And in sports, it's just kind of, you know, I mean, again,

it is not cool to do what is a lit.

But would people are suggesting,

intimating here, right?

Like if that's the way,

because I don't think it's,

I don't think it's fair to everybody else that's competing.

I don't think it's just right for the other, you know,

the reputations of other people around you.

They go to Baffer you, whatever.

But it is just sort of interesting to me that like in political journalism,

we just kind of like,

it's kind of how the sausage gets made in sports.

It's a,

it's a huge big deal, man.

I mean, I,

there's very few,

it's not Luca level in my phone today.

But a lot of people sent that text to me today, you know?

Absolutely.

I mean, God to describe how much this is being talked to,

De Norris point earlier about the low,

relatively low number of big media bylines about this.

Versus the number of.

Versus the number of people weighing in behind the scenes.

I mean,

I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say that.

I'm not going to say that.

People weighing in behind the scenes.

And I haven't checked my phone since this pod started,

but I'm sure all of us have dozens more waiting for us.

Okay.

That's our reaction to the news of the day.

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Hello media consumers.

Welcome to the old press box.

It's Brian Curtis.

It's Joe Anderson.

It's producers Isaiah Blakely and Bruce Baldwin.

Joel, we're joined by a very special guest today here at the press box.

Diana Arrini.

No.

Oh, good guess.

Our guest is a ringer writer.

She is one of the hosts of the We're Obsessed podcast and the every single album podcast.

She covered the New England Patriots beat in less complicated times.

Norprinciotti.

Welcome back to the press box.

I'm not sure they were entirely less complicated.

They were pretty complicated in some moments.

Different complications, perhaps different complicated times.

Nora, we brought you on to talk about Joe Biden's forthcoming memoir.

Now we brought you on to talk about the story that's burning up our text chains.

Diana Rossini, Mike Vrabel and the perils of NFL insider.

I want to accuse you guys of this, but I think I joked to you both offline

that I turned on Boston Sports Radio the other day.

And the first thing I heard was one of the hosts say, well, here's a text from a woman.

And so if I can provide that kind of, if I can be the analogous text from a woman here,

I'm glad to do it.

Oh, man.

Yeah, we did.

As we did.

We did.

We did.

We really did call it.

This is what a lifeline you've provided for us, Nora.

Thank you very much.

Glad to do it.

Glad to do it.

So this is a conversation that has been largely conducted on Twitter minus a few odd podcasts

here and there and a few reports with the actual sources from the athletic.

So we sit here Nora on Tuesday morning, where are you on this story right now?

You know, I, the specific utility and also the psyche and the state of insider dumb is

trying to get a little bit less than one of the things that I wanted to do.

Something that I really have a tendency to enjoy getting a bit philosophical about.

So I think that is the angle that even if it is in some ways less juicy than some others that pertain to the story.

That's the one that I keep kind of circling.

I also think it's one that.

Is really maybe this is the cowards way out.

You know, we sit here today and as you said when you guys did your pod last week, there

are things that we just don't know that make this difficult to talk about and to draw

conclusions based off of.

So yeah, I guess how this plays into the role of the insider in our current media environment

is where my head's at.

Does feel like think peace island, doesn't it?

In this story.

My favorite place.

Because you could just raise your hand like, I don't know what happened, but I had to

conserve the outsider's well, it raises a lot of questions.

It really does.

So things I've been thinking about long before I read the page six story.

And by the way, we're going to get there on this podcast.

We will be, we will be in a first class cabin on the way to think peace island.

But first I wanted to go back to something.

Jody Walker said to you on a pot the other day, which is we shouldn't assume that everybody

knows who everyone is in the story.

And maybe it's useful to just walk people through the career of Diana Rossini so that

people understand who she is and what her place is in sports writing right now.

Diana Rossini was a college athlete at George Mason.

She worked in local TV jobs coast to coast.

Gets to ESPN in 2015 initially, mostly as a sports center anchor.

She joined the NFL team at ESPN shortly thereafter.

And then one way to think about her career is this.

There are tears of NFL reporter to me at ESPN.

How would you guys explain the tears?

We agree like shepherds at the very tipy tipy top of that, right?

Everything goes through him.

If anybody is doing any sort of breaking news about the league, you probably have to talk

it over with him and verify with whatever his sources are, whatever.

And then there's like secondary folks, right?

It's sort of the national folks.

Because I think it's the individual beat reporters.

I forgot if they still use the terminology ESPN NFL nation where everybody's assigned.

And then there's the tear where it's sort of the the foulers and there's some scoopage going on.

It's not necessarily like the reporters will have teams that they focus on, but they'll have a handful of them.

There's definitely some scoopage going on.

It's a little bit less.

You are breaking news every day.

And then there's shifter.

And then sort of adjacent to that, there's more personality people who might end up having a scoop.

A few times a year, but I feel like it's sort of those three and then more personality driven stuff that's adjacent to that.

That middle tier is so interesting because it's like you're still in NFL reporter.

Maybe you even still hold a microphone and stand outside a stadium on the pregame show.

But we ESPN, meaning we have other plans for you.

It's like Courtney Cronin's in that tier now.

You mentioned Jeremy Fowler, Jeff Darlington's at the Masters last week.

Like we're figuring out other things for you to do in the ESPN universe.

Maybe that's you come on, get up frequently.

Maybe that's, you know, you do a little hosting here and there.

That's kind of where she was.

And it's funny.

I found a press release from 2021 that ESPN sent out when they resigned her to what I think was her last contract there.

And they were talking about all the things she'd done at ESPN.

And one of the things they congratulated her for was getting an interview with, wait for it, Mike Frabel, right before the AFC Championship game.

Oh man.

Because that's a CBS game, right?

So here's somebody at ESPN who's trying to figure out ways to bring value to the network besides just, as I said, holding a microphone there.

Oh, you got Vrable before the game.

There's even a picture of her in that press release standing in the stands, Vrable's down on the field.

And she's going to talk to them.

Those are the kinds of things you do to get ahead.

So then, Dan and we're seeing eventually hits the question.

So I go ahead.

Can I ask you a question?

Because so help me out for a second because, you know, I've worked at ESPN.

But why would you, I thought Sports Center anchor, like obviously I must become and get this with the mindset of somebody who is a Gen Xer.

But I thought being a Sports Center anchor was one of the things you aspire to.

Obviously, no, it's not, you know, it doesn't have nearly the same sort of glamour or prestige that it used to have.

But leaving Sports Center anchor to cover the NFL, that to me that he, it best seems like a parallel move.

Did that change?

Like, how did that change?

She gets there in 2015.

I think Sports Center is very on the wane by that point.

Okay.

You know, that used to be like, right, the big bullpen of funny, talented people going places.

Yeah.

Pray a kill, born, you know, whatever.

Yeah.

And I think you could argue now that the NFL is the bullpen there.

Where you're going to get chances to do things or, as it turned out with her, like prove yourself that you can go somewhere else.

And be a big star in that universe.

She does come to the question of what else can I do here at ESPN, right?

We mentioned Shafters in the top spot as the insider, but Laura Rutledge in that conversation hosting NFL live to.

Racini said this after leaving.

She said, it really came down to recognizing the ESPN.

I wasn't going to change roles.

There was no elevation there for me based on my conversations with the company.

They did not have a vision outside of what I currently do.

So in 2023, she went to the athletic.

And Nora, would you say she was kind of in the, of the Adam Shafter role is exactly right, but she was the prime NFL newsbreaker and reporter full stop at that place.

Well, so yes and no, and this is what I, this is what sort of odd and fascinating about this element of it is yes, in the sense that she was.

Top dog NFL newsbreaker, which is analogous to the Shafter role.

On the flip side, she's going to a place where your medium can't be tweets and TV hits.

It has to be written articles.

And so to some extent, that can be serviced by, okay, you have a transactional report and then the beat writer for whatever team and pertains to can flesh it out about, you know, if it's a team ex assigning a player, that beat reporter can say, what does this mean for the roster?

And then that can be a story that goes on the athletic website.

But also there's an implication that some of the stories are going to be a little meteor than that, I think.

And that was what she wound up doing.

I mean, if I think of the stories at the athletic that I remember Diana reporting, it was being part of the Air and Rogers has a wish list for the Jets story.

It was.

Hey, look, you already know the Jets are a mess, but they're an extra mess this time because brick johnson is in the draft room talking about mad and ratings.

And it was more recent.

I mean, this one didn't quite rise to that level, but it was.

The piece after the Vikings and Kwameh Dofa Mensa, part of ways where he got fired, sort of talking about the philosophical differences and some personality tensions that had existed in that team, including the fact that he'd asked to go on paternity leave.

And I'm sure you guys remember that was a whole like that was three days of discourse.

The talker.

Yeah.

In NFL world.

And so those are slightly different types of stories, right?

That's not, hey, I'm hearing that the that the Rams are eyeing defensive tackle in the first round.

It's a slightly different breed.

And I think I feel like I don't know if I'm doing a revisionist history here, but I feel like you could tell when she got there that that was supposed to be what she was driving for.

The classic athletic story, isn't it?

A thing happened and we're going to give you the inside scoopage behind the thing with exactly 3.5 memorable anecdotes for story.

Well, that's what like this happened yesterday with Doc Rivers left the bucks, like Eric name the next morning is like the bucks season from hell.

It's like, all right, we got it.

Well, boxes but checked.

Well, Brian, you call, I mean, don't you, I mean, you call those and you can tell me if you're making a distinction.

The, oh, now they tell a story.

Is that, I mean, is that there are some fine distinctions in the now they tell a story, but let's call that the genre general.

Okay.

Yeah.

All the things, but a lot of times and partly nor is talking about this too.

There is unexpected news like a thing happens.

It's like, oh, the jets were a mess this year.

What can we find out about this?

What's wrong?

Why the jets miss the playoffs for 14 straight years?

Oh, wait, Woody Johnson is relying on mad and ratings.

He's getting filtered through his sons, one of whom is named brick.

Just amazing.

And that was an amazing story.

And you're right.

She would have an often those would be like multi-byline stories.

Another funny thing that happens when she goes to the athletic.

And I know you guys remember this Peter King decides to devote a couple of paragraphs.

Do his come from his column to Diana Rossini.

This is Peter's last year on the NFL beat.

And I just want to read this to you because this was just speaking of a talker.

Peter King wrote this move, meaning receding to the athletic doesn't make traditional journalism sense.

To think Diana Rossini will almost certainly make more money than Maggie Haberman or David Brooks.

Times legends and crazily might earn more than them combined is a sign of the strange sports journalism times we live in.

Stars who cover the NFL make crazy salaries compared to the money people make.

Covering news that truly matters.

It really centered the salary portion of it in a way that I found a bit bizarre.

Peter was not underpaid.

What is various stops in its weird is hard to explain to people but ESPN.

At least at one time paid so far outside of the normal range of journalism jobs.

That is kind of hard for people to comprehend it to get their head around right like I mean at the New York Times.

A columnist like you know David Brooks Charles blow whatever I mean this making six figures.

But I mean there's people sitting on panels at ESPN that are making seven figures right like that are not athletes.

And that's just that that's the industry norm or it was at one time.

So if you leave ESPN and I mean you know I mean you've got to first you got to try to create an opportunity that makes it feel like this is something I can sing my teeth into it's something that is like equivalent or better like I'm getting this you know spread my wings a little bit but also I mean you're not going to take 80% pay cut just to fit in with your co workers you know what I mean like you're going to have to make a pretty good salary and if they're willing to give it to you.

But like at a context it sounds like wow that was seen you know made seven eight hundred thousand dollars but it's like shit man like that is you know mid tier money at ESPN.

Just the apples to oranges of invoking David Brooks really.

So I assume the answer to this one way or another is yes but like just Peter know how much Maggie Abraham was making at the time like I doubt it was a million dollars but I don't really know you know so that's a very valuable report.

For an institution it's just it just the tone of that still to this day strikes me as bizarre I just love to learning who was on Peter Kings Peter Kings New York Times all protein right.

Maggie Heymerman and David Brooks.

Okay.

She right nor that did center her salary which became this thing on Twitter and in in in responsible media as well Ben Strauss formerly of the Washington Post reported that

Shamsharani was making between six hundred seven thousand dollars six hundred thousand and seven hundred thousand dollars at the athletic and the Diana was making more so there's that right that's a thing that was reported out there.

We mentioned Diana's a writer at the athletic she was also a podcast guest inside the athletic at her own pod scoop city and then in the outside world the libertard show pardon my take.

This is part of the gig now that you go on podcasts and you have fun with the host.

How did you guys think those podcast appearances playing now because we've seen a whole bunch of them on Twitter ever since a page six story came up.

Well I mean I think I've been thinking about this the past few days because a lot of us and I don't you know I came through the business as a reporter a journalist right and you don't really want people to know what your name is you kind of want your the headlines and the stories you write.

To be what you lead with when people think of you but if you're going to get into that world you've got to entertain in a way right and so you're going to tell jokes you're going to be a little bit more jocular you're going to be loose and you're not thinking about the day that you're going to be in page six when you're doing all this right like it is a well worn trope that people all lots of people in media use their spouse is somebody like sort of a foil in their joke.

Right is like you know my wife is going to really come down on me or my husband you know he doesn't give a shit about what I do whatever but when you and it's just a way to make yourself sort of relatable and like to be sort of self deprecating or whatever but it's like the day that you end up on page six or TMZ people can use that against you and say all these signs here and I mean maybe there were but nobody is thinking about that and so like it's just it's just a part of having a good time.

It's just a part of having to make yourself a brand a personality and that's kind of what when I've been thinking about this I felt really bad for Diana because I was like damn and there's no way this she thought it was going to come down on her like this all these jokes the people are going to tally him up and be like you didn't respect your husband from the jump you know.

Well she's in a way like she's good at it she's I think we've all I said this when Jody and I talked about this on we're obsessed but I suppose I should mention it here too like I've met Diana several times as a I really like her like she's a really compelling person to be around she's really funny she's sort of like just has an energy to her I totally get why something that makes her.

Really good in those podcasts spaces and in those places where you sort of have to prove it's not just about having the goods as a reporter but it is also about being a good hang like it makes all the sense in the world to me that.

Of all of the reporters many of whom go into you know pardon my take environment or levitard and they just don't seem fun enough to be there to be blunt about it like.

She totally stands out in that way and like I've always really liked being around her that's sort of irrelevant but like I get why she has thrived in that kind of space.

Have you been on levitard before no I haven't right so i've been on their two or three times right and again I was a person that listened to the levitard show every day starting from the decision right like from the decision and then I listen to Dan when he was on ESPN on.

Sundays to ESPN radio on Sundays so I was a big fan you go on there and you're like when you get an audience with them you'd be a fool not to think man bonani mean a Pablo Saras pain.

You know all these people who've gotten a chance to sort of get elevated to a whole another world of media and a whole other salary classification.

You got to put on a good show when you go on with Dan and I went on.

Twice the second time I think you got so frustrated at me that he never let me I did not perform well apparently I got a little mad back at him too i was like what am I fucking you know you asking me this question i'm trying to answer it anyway.

But the whole point of it is that you feel like you've got to put on a show and some people are much better at that than others and you're right nor they're like i.

i've known who it's not like i keep up with the NFL reporting all the damn time but I knew who Diana Rossini is more from that world than I did from like the NFL stuff she was doing.

This is what the business is now we say this from inside the ringer podcast network your reporter your writer but you're also a lowercase good hang.

yeah go on a podcast you can have fun you can hang in there with the host you can laugh at the jokes you can make your own jokes you can get him back she's just this is the currency of the world that we live in now.

The media world we live in and as you say Joel she was she was you know working in that world long before any of this this this story was ever going to see the light of day.

The story in question is was in the new york post last Tuesday recene and micrable were photographed at a resort in sadona called the umby entey.

They were shown in a hot tub a broad hotel hot tub to use your words nor from the other day.

Some reason that just made me smile.

Shown hugging shown fingers interlocked both Rossini and variable denied to the post that anything untorted happened.

Frabble said these photos show a completely innocent interaction and any suggestion otherwise is laughable this doesn't deserve any further response.

Rossini told the post the photos don't represent the group of six people who were hanging out during the day like most journalists in the NFL reporters interact.

With sources away from stadiums and other venues nor how did you process the story when you first saw it.

Serving two two ways one is that you know I again like i'm not close with this person but I have positive feelings towards her and so part I didn't want it to be true because of that I didn't want it to be true because what it means for a woman in her job.

So I had the dueling experiences of.

Feeling that way and then also looking at the photos and going.

Okay yes I can issue all of the caveats if we don't know and we don't know and we don't know also there is something that makes you feel a little bit silly about doing that because it is an odd position to platonically wind up.

With someone in I mean something that jody and I talked about is like.

Is it even possible to platonically interlock fingers I I suppose maybe but it's it's hard to come up with the scenario.

And even if that is the case I think we can agree that this is journalistically.

Not ideal even if the photos were were just that and the context was missing.

Also you read the denials and they're they're not equivocated like they're very this isn't what you think it is this isn't what it looks like.

And here's my boss at the athletic saying so too so I felt very like.

Gosh I really don't know.

Instinctually it leads you pretty strongly in one direction but if there is another shoot a drop here like would they really come out so forcibly and say.

Absolutely not it's not what it looks like so I was sort of an appretzel.

How about you Joel yeah you know so I've had a lot of time to think about this because when we talked about it on Thursday kind of like with North.

You don't want to seem totally credulous right I mean we're adults you know you see two people at a very secluded very romantic type place interlocking fingers sitting side by side.

On at a pool and then in a hot tub I mean come on you know um but you're right like the the denials were strong but again like again it's another thing like of course they're going to be like if somebody that's accused of you know doing some sort of romantic get away with somebody that's not there spouse.

I mean you kind of got to carry that lie out all the way you know like you can't like you you can't even.

I mean in less and again this is where we get into the place where we just we we have no idea and so it is inevitably a dead end but I'm going to say it anyway like in less you know that it's not that you're waiting for the other shoot a drop the shoe has dropped the jig is up and it's time to say you know we're really sorry.

And like at least that didn't happen.

Who are they going to say I'm sorry to under those circumstances right like who deserves an apology.

Under those circumstances I'm just trying to think back to like the TJ homes.

Situation for instance and I'm like they're so they were clearly trying to keep this from their spouses at the time right right right but like who are they supposed to apologize to under these circumstances who what are they sorry about.

I think it's that you know we regret the pain this causes family yada yada yada yeah.

Yeah it's funny when I was rereading the story before we came on today I was like oh here's a detail I missed so the story from friends of people close to variable and receding in the story is that receding was staying at this hotel.

Vrable was staying at the Phoenix area because he'd been doing pre draft stuff at Arizona State.

Mike Vrable the coach who just took the Patriots to the Super Bowl drove four hours round trip to platonically hang out with an NFL reporter.

Who's going to be at the same hotel as him five days from or three days from them or whatever they're about to show up at the owners meetings together.

So I'm like does that I mean again whatever whatever the truth turns out to be here.

What is your relationship with with an NFL head coach if they are driving four hours to hang out with you in one day.

Again I would just I would that just to me is a very very little joint Tyson break down some little Sam levitt intel you know get in on that early you know.

So you mentioned that there was a denial from receding his boss in that story that is Steven Ginsburg of the athletic he told the post these photos are misleading and like essential context these republic interactions in front of many people Diana's a premier journalist covering the NFL and we're proud to have her at the athletic.

A little inside journalism on Steven Ginsburg who's a big editor at the Washington Post.

He was seen as a candidate to be the editor of the Washington Post back in 2021 when the paper hired Sally Busby that was several Washington Post mistakes ago.

2022 Ginsburg left the post to become executive editor at the athletic.

Here's what I find ironic about that statement to the post since he joined the athletic Ginsburg has said almost nothing publicly about that publication.

Yeah almost nothing.

I was told this week that he hosts an internal podcast at the athletic in which he interviews writers about their craft.

That's kind of adorable man when you when you like to be a part of that if you worked at the athletic when you want to be on that.

I think that's really wonderful and I just the phrase internal podcast.

It takes simply so little to have an external podcast that a lot of people here at the ringer think the press box is an internal podcast.

Sometimes we just accidentally said it to public.

But for Ginsburg to decide that this is going to be his one memorable public statement about the publication that he is the executive editor of.

Oh my goodness.

Well, it can't have been super thoughtfully done because it is sort of wrong right even in the first instance knowing as little as we know because at least one of those photos if my understanding by page six is cracked.

Is that it was taken of the two of them on the roof deck of you know the this is a hotel where it's not all one building if you if you have a room there it's a little bungalow and they each have a roof deck.

And so I guess that's public in the sense that you know you're not in a.

Curtains closed totally.

The non visible environment but that's not I wouldn't really describe that as being in public that's that's a private space that's a space that you need a particular hotel key card.

To enter and somebody you know with a lot of zoom was able to photograph them because they are outside by it's a little.

It's a little strange to me to to say all of this took place in public because I don't i'm not really sure it did.

Are you guys fascinated by the who took these pictures question that burbled up.

Last week i'm surprised we don't know the answer to that yet.

Yeah and it there was the story that um that they were sort of shopped around and I've.

I've not known in what direction that cuts is it more likely that if you know somebody sent a PI to see if they were up to something that they would then go to various publications or wouldn't.

Aramdo who just happened to be staying there and notice do the same.

Thing um i don't i don't know what to make of that part of it.

Mike variables are very recognizable person is he not i seem to i seem to hear the are you sure.

I don't know about that one isn't he like a huge human being.

He's physically imposing and so if you see him in a space you're probably going to.

Like I used to have this weird bit with Bill Barnwell about like what NFL player.

If they were in the supermarket with you would you definitely see and it would be about.

The sort of nexus of who is physically imposing.

Um enough that you just wouldn't walk by them but also recognizable enough so that if you saw their face you'd be like oh that's so and so and we would always say it was cam Newton.

Because like you know that's cam Newton but also he's a giant guy and he's probably wearing a crazy hat.

And I think without the crazy hat Mike Raible passes the.

You walk past this person you sort of.

Perseve them as being in the space with you.

Test.

And if you're a football fan you probably know what his face looks like.

NFL people for as big as the sport is art like can be so anonymous and this is something the jody said to me too.

She was like I need you to know that most people would not clock who these people are they would not know who these who they are and they would not be able to ID them but I think.

You know all it takes is someone who spends a lot of time watching watching the spn a million times in your life.

Well I mean good.

If you're a younger person and you're out in Houston LA Vegas, New Orleans, wherever and there's other NFL players around.

Like it's really hard to know with any individual NFL player looks like like something you may be like man that guy's kind of built.

I wonder if he plays something and that I could see you getting there with Mike Raible in that way right like oh I mean again Vince Young.

If Vince Young walks in any room I'm going to know who he is.

What does the average person though look at him and be like.

I have to Vince Young that probably be like we use pretty big I wouldn't if he played something but I just can't imagine anybody that many people know Mike Raible in a course dianna receipt.

I mean it's just I mean again it for is prominent issue is in our business.

There's just no way that many people in a far off resort you know in the middle of Arizona are going to be like that's the average scene.

You know that many people 100% it just it only takes one.

It only takes one.

I love the supermarket test because I'm imagining seeing rock party you know buying slices of monster cheese and traitor Joe's and be like do I recognize a person.

Well my point is like you're just not even going to have that experience you're just going to walk past the guy because he's not going to clock to you as a person.

Who's anyone other than some guy by a monster cheese.

Has that happened before?

No, who's the most famous person you've run into in a grocery store specifically by monster cheese.

I saw Jesse Tyler Ferguson at a Barry's bootcamp.

My fiance told me that we walked past Jesse Eisenberg on the street in Brooklyn last week but I didn't notice him.

That's what I got for you right now.

I feel a lot more of that in New York than there is in LA.

I'm weird enough because there's a lot of just streets like oh that was I remember I walked by Philip C.

More Hoffman one time ago that's yeah which is what we each other in Brooklyn.

Is he Rachel Dratch sometimes.

Oh my goodness.

I saw Drew Goodin in a whole foods in Orlando one.

You know Drew Goodin.

Okay.

Okay.

Can't this.

Yeah, can't this say.

So that page six story was last Tuesday.

Last Friday Ryan Glasspeagle had a report in front office sports that the New York Times was investigating further

and that Racini was sideline during that investigation.

He was Glasspeagle had a line saying sources told front office sports that the athletic is pressing for proof about Racini's claim that they were there with other people.

Now what has to happen in a newsroom from Tuesday to Friday that you would decide to make this giant U-turn.

Knowing that as soon as word of that investigation got out this was going to become an even bigger story.

Well think about what I just just did and was saying where he read the statement and go even in the first instance some of this doesn't quite make sense.

The claim that this was all happening you know in broad public daylight doesn't totally seem to line up with with the photos.

So it.

As to who would raise that type of thing that's the piece that I don't quite understand and I wonder if like I don't feel like I have a complete understanding of the relationship between the athletic the athletic and the New York Times and like how do those two hands talk to each other and is it possible that something can kind of be handled in athletic dumb and then.

In New York Times dumb somebody goes hey this doesn't quite work for us. I will say that like another thing that feels a bit sketchy about this whole thing is that the presence of other people was such a big part of the denial and there doesn't like there's no public evidence of that which you feel like there would be like I've been on some girl strips and there tend to be a lot of photographs.

So I wonder if it's that if it's hey so if that's the case can we just see some photos of the rest of the people oh no we don't have them of course like again I'm totally speculating here but I that feels like the nexus of sort of hey we actually have to take a second look at this.

Yeah my my my presumption that the way that this happened and it probably is wrong but this is just my theory the pictures come out the story come out.

He gets on the phone with Diana Rossini Ginsburg and she makes this adamant denial of anything on toward and hit that it's kind of like in the Olivia Newt'sy stories like you want to believe your star reporter like somebody that you have a relationship with somebody that you have the stowed a lot of money and responsibility on to and you know they're going to they're going to be like hey let this is bullshit like people are just trying to embarrass me.

This is you know this is a make any sense I have that 10 rare here I can do want me to call my husband and show you and then you're like no no no that's not going to be necessary that kind of stuff and then you get out the phone and then other people like so what happened like did she when you talk there did she give you who are her friends that were there and he probably like oh shit that's a that's a good point you know where's what I maybe I need some more evidence and say I could I could imagine just wanting to this to this to go away and to believe in you.

Somebody that you have an established relationship with and then other people come in and be like bro I don't know I think she might have finessed you on this you know I think when there ever there's a journalism scandal there's or a maybe scandal in this case there's always two stories there's the story tell the world and there's a story tell your boss and often the story tell your boss is just as important as the other one because that's what it comes down to and obviously and if again if class people's report is correct and then that's what they're confirming here I'm kind of

interested in like what again this is this you hit a brick wall in this in eventually right like what are you what are you going to show me that's going to prove that this is one way or the other that this is what this was one way that what what photograph are you going to come up with that is going to end this conversation once and for all.

In every story that Stephen Glass Jason Blair this story is a fabulous stories of people that are caught up in scandal I feel like one of the most common things to emerge from that is that the managers want to believe like they start out like really looking for ways to believe their reporter it's a natural impulse right that is what you like I think we all come up with that.

I don't want to believe like I don't want I want there to be an uncompromised and high functioning Diana or Sini in the NFL reporting landscape I also don't like even if people can do things that are professionally disqualifying and we live in a society where you know we need as many consequences as we still have in that society but like you can also the whole thing seems incredibly unpleasant like it's very important.

It's very hard to root for the destruction and the meanness and like yes there is an element of scandal that people can get a little gleeful about but in general it's like who would very few people are going to feel like there's an incentive for them for this to be true or to want it to be true like that's a hard position to take.

I don't want to sound like the sports radio host that Nora mentioned earlier but I also got some texts over the weekend.

After Jolani's segment on Friday one thing Jolani did not do a great job of was adding context to this discussion about what it's like to be a woman in sports media in 2026.

And if I may, if you're getting at the risk of sounding like said sports radio host just read from a text that I got from a national reporter who told me we're always thinking about what we're wearing where we're meeting people if we are willing to get a cocktail with a source what time we call slash text.

This reporter was talking to be about going out of your way to make sure there's not even an appearance of impropriety.

Forget about impropriety even the appearance so that somebody could point a finger and she continued like this she said a lot of it is dressing professionally slash conservatively golf.

I think it's pretty easy daytime activity dinners usually find two but I do lean toward going to a place near meetings slash the event we're at.

So if you run into anyone it makes sense it wouldn't look like anything to hide sitting at the bar around people not off in a corner if you're at a table not anything that looks too cozy or romantic.

And I don't get drinks with coaches who have ever been florida or could misread the situation.

Nuro have you experienced those kind of ideas.

Yeah.

I guess is I have yeah all of that all of that resonates right like all of those I think are ways that.

Women who work in these spaces think about as means of protecting themselves.

That description already does mean that that person cannot do their job in the way that Ian rap a port can do his job like it is a year all.

There's an acceptance of that of a just demonstrably different mode of existing in any sort of NFL media world but particularly insider dumb which like first of all is something that I have never.

I feel like there's some of this that I can speak to and then some of this where I have kind of always known that that was not for me and when information it when you've decided that that is the thing that you're going to pursue to add value to yourself as.

A person in this career like I do think that that takes on a certain set of of complications in terms of how you go about that because like.

Yeah all that totally makes sense to me and that those are the i'm in a bunch of group tax with women who cover the NFL and you know we'll send each other hey like.

Say it someone who works on the west coast hey i know it's later in Boston or wherever do you think it's still okay for me to send this text I really need this piece of information like.

What do you guys think of this phrasing does this sound is there anyway this could be misconstrued like people there's a lot of effort that goes into not putting yourself in a bad situation or a situation that could seem bad.

The problem with that is that it makes it so much harder like it make it I don't it's sort of an open question to me of.

If you can really go at this incredibly shummy incredibly relationship based.

Type of work within the NFL media landscape.

While always being.

That hyper hyper careful which a lot of women who do this are and I think that's for good reasons and I think like.

I think ultimately that's the way to be.

But part of what's complicated about this is like I don't she's.

Diana is probably the most prominent and most successful female NFL news broker.

Ever I think like I can't really come up with somebody else who I think has has.

Really made themselves part of a conversation with the rap reports and shepherds and peliceros and foulers and brewers like it is.

Kind of just her and there is a shamelessness to the way that the guys do it that I think is culturally accepted that when you introduce a woman into that space it's really really complicated and I'm not sure there is a right answer because.

I like.

I'm not sure that we've ever seen someone.

Get there by being that careful and that is when you get into the messiness of insider dumb in general that I think we all feel and it but it definitely presents I think a very specific complication for any woman.

What was the jay glazer text or the jay glazer tweet you were talking about nor on your podcast the other day.

Oh well it was it was also from owners meetings.

He tweeted out of photo.

I think it's you can see a bunch of people at the table.

I think you can see Mike Tomlin some assistant coaches and it's jay glazer just being like.

Several years ago I started a annual tradition where I get together with the coaches and we day drink and we call it day drinking.

And here's a photo of us doing that.

And imagine a woman on the beat tweeting that out.

Drinking with the guys.

But I also think about this nor I mean.

Don't a lot of these meetings whether it's with agents front office people.

I mean just real shit.

Then a lot of this happened in strip clubs too like I do do do would you have gone to one of the you know that like hey look we're going to.

You know legs and eggs it's in 30 to 9 like would you go to that.

I've had that question posed to me by other media members and the answer is no it would be no if coaches or NFL people posted to me but that's never happened to me I will say.

Yeah I mean it just it seems.

It is unfair it is very unfair but the question I have to the person that both sent you that text Brian into to nor in a way.

When I hear them saying making all these preparations right like this.

Taking these precautions.

This is about the sources right and like making sure you're not given off.

The wrong impression or like making them think that you're available in some sort of way because there's no way.

I mean just given where we are in the world right there's no way.

That female reporters insiders or whatever are going to be able to manage their reputation with fans or people that follow the NFL right because they're already.

I mean I hate to say it I mean their their inclination is to lean towards well we know why those women are there I mean I see these comments on.

Social media and everything else and I don't mean to malign everybody that follows for every male football fan that falls football.

But it is a well worn trope on social media that men think that these attractive women are put in this place and that they you know it's a joke and it's it's a bad joke.

But it's this part of like the language that they use to malign women that dare enter this space right so.

Like do you really think that like by doing all that that that can influence away other people think about you or is that more about.

Just the reputation within the industry and within the coaches and the front office times.

I think it's yeah it's about the sources because I agree with you I don't think that you know certainly every fan does not do this every male fan does not do this but I think in general in the supplies across genders if you are making choices as someone in sports media to avoid negative Twitter commentary.

It's not it's not a useful not a useful starting point I think it's you know part of it is you're trying so hard to avoid getting a weird text from someone or.

Someone gets too drunk get a combine thing and makes a pass.

Because one it's inappropriate and offensive and bad also then you burn a source.

You just kind of got a not to like particularly if if you are choosing to just be like okay I just don't want to deal with it then you can't text that person anymore and that's tough like you don't want to be.

Crossing people off one by one that way and I think that's the that's the thing that that person who's saying you know I don't sit at the corner of the bar it has to be within a certain distance of where the event is so that there's a clear explanation like I think that's what that person I would guess is most trying to avoid.

It's a good point and it's we're talking about two different things right we're talking about people in the end just people in the football industry right who are crossing lines and doing and saying inappropriate things and looking at women that cover the game in an appropriate way and then the secondary thing of people that are just other reporters people like the press box podcast watching the industry and making.

There's two different things but they're both interlocked and I think in those comments they are.

I know you talked about insider can we talk about what is the point of insider to in 2026 where now we're see we're on the boat we're heading to think peace island.

I just think there's a fascinating conversation because the world has changed a lot since I think the first heyday of this which is probably the early 2010s.

Shepherds break it scoops on Twitter and woe just breaking scoops on Twitter how do we think insider them.

Fits in with the world we live in today.

Well I think you're right to mention Twitter kind of from the jump of this because there was an era of social media but particularly Twitter that really prioritized the you know 280 characters or less transactional scoop lit.

Right that was that was something that could.

Fuel conversation and fuel sports media really effectively because of the prominence you know among fans but especially among other media people of that platform I think right now.

Now that Twitter is what it is or you know x excuse me.

It's it's much harder to answer the question because I'm not like the utility of someone telling me.

Something that I'm going to get from a team and a press release.

It's not even really hours later it's probably minutes later in a lot of cases I don't I don't really know how to make an argument for that being something that's super additive.

For me or for what I would see is the NFL landscape the version of insider them that we were talking about with Diana though where it's.

Some of it is the now they tell us but some of it is also the.

I want to know about brick johnson in the front office you know making everybody annoyed like that version of it I do know how to make the argument for that I'm glad I know those stories I also like I believe that those stories were.

Effectively and and thoroughly reported I guess like I haven't you know done the forensics of that but.

Those all seem to be true and I think the NFL media consuming public is is better equipped to understand the league and those teams for knowing those things.

It's funny because I think those stories have been around we could probably find examples and newspapers right news happens in your boss is hey go find out why this thing happened give me give me the back story here.

But I think in a way the prominence of shifter at all created.

The thirst for those stories because those guys are doing such short tweets and then they move on to the next thing it's just it's not actually about how football teams work it's just about transactions it's so divorced as you say from the game so then there's this giant hole like wait why did Aaron Glenn get retained what happened.

Right nobody is explaining that yeah and they've sort of created.

Even some of you see it happening with with shifter who of course is still reporting a lot of individual nuggets of information but it seems more and more like what his job is is to play the character of NFL of Adam shifter on studio shows like it's to try him out and have him like juggling 17 phones and run into the corner to take a phone call and come back and tell you something.

And it's more like it seems to me to be more about giving viewers the experience of watching someone furiously type into their their phone then it is about actually what's going to happen because people are going to find out very shortly anyway.

Really funny when shifter first became a thing I remember thinking oh power on television now is that you're on TV but you're typing on your blackberry this is one blackberries where I think like that's I'm on television but actually I'm busy yeah that was the new power.

Now we're just now as you say that's part of the that's part of the act.

So you're coming so y'all saying chef tweets and woes bombs don't ring off like they used to.

I think I think if technology created those guys in a certain way or empowered those guys in a certain way it has also taken away some of their power because let's take the Aaron Glenn example soon as Aaron Glenn is retained okay coming back your favorite jet jet podcast is going live.

Immediately we're live talking about the decision the crazy decision to bring your good back for one more season and you're like oh so not only is it they're not like a lag between hey the newspaper has to come out a day later to match the scoop.

The scoops matched instantly and the people you care about that are actually giving you analysis of the situation that are talking about it they're up.

They're their content is out there so what's what's the point really right you're just giving me something that was going to happen anyway that's always been the question now there's not even time between that bit of information and me turning to the people I want to hear on it whether it's a ringer podcast whether it's a you know local team podcast whatever it is I think that's undermined them in a lot of ways.

I think that that's definitely true I'm trying to think about the max cross be story because that that's the thing that I can think of in relatively recent NFL.

Scoops where some of those people I think added to it in a way that felt meaningful like to be able to know fairly quickly that it was about a physical which yes okay was that terribly hard to extrapolate given.

His injury history and what had been going on with him no but with a little bit more certainty to kind of understand the timeline of okay he's there and then they decide to.

Balls more decides to.

Fail him like I think there were I think there was texture to that story which is you know it's one of the bigger stories of this off season that those guys were able to provide and those people going on those podcasts had a little bit more to work with as a result of that.

Maybe it's hard to say with my full chest.

Should you think it's weird that the New York Times got into the insider business not just with Racini but with shoms as well I feel like it's just a thing that i've been trying to think about because if you know anybody at the athletic you know they're not allowed to refer to themselves as working for the New York Times.

The New York Times has been fairly adamant about like no don't say you're with the New York Times you're with the athletic.

And so I think that the New York Times is in the insider business just because this is the way.

The sports inside of this because this is just the way they chose to be in sports right they wanted to farm all that out.

To some other people.

And they had a fairly robust news organization that was there but I don't.

Do you really think of this is like reflecting on the times because I actually don't I still think of this as an athlete I've been really actually interested in how many people have referred to this as a time story.

I think it's a post to an athletic story because.

I feel like if you know anybody that works at the athletic the division is fairly clear yes yes it is but it's a big look page six gets so much much much more of a pop out of it if it's a New York Times reporter well they really made sure to.

To splash that pretty prominently right right right they can't wait to make for I actually meant to ask you guys this though.

Did you all ever felt pressure to become insiders at any point in your careers like I'm because it is obviously what was value it's still value like very highly.

In every in every kind of journalism you cover from politics culture and certainly sports like being an insider like Pete them all.

Like is a big dude a big deal in college football right and he like elevated past a lot of people there were above him on the hierarchy because he can do he can break news like that so like did you all ever feel like a man I better do that to keep my job Nora.

Not to that extent I've definitely felt pressure at various junctures to work that muscle a little bit more and even if it's not even if it's not one of the main tools i'm trying to advertise in my toolkit to sharpen it a little bit.

I don't like the text man.

I just can't stand.

I've mostly known that that was not for me.

What about you Joel well you know so when I started at bus feed in the fall of 2013 they had a sports vertical and I was going to be a senior sports writer so I was my thought was I was going to do longer pieces.

And all this other stuff but also contribute to learn how to make gifts for instance you know do all that kind of shit because it just seemed like an important thing to do at bus feed.

And within six months they had folded our vertical so I ended up getting put under our investigative editor I wasn't investigative reporter but I was part of the start of what would become our national best okay.

But it still was very worrisome I was like man they don't really seem to care about sports over here and not very long after that I think I can say this.

Ben Smith who was the editor of bus feed news came up to me and he's like do you know who's you know this guy named you and was not asking I was like yeah I don't know him personally but I know who he is.

And he was fixated for the next month on hiring woes like trying to get me to get in contact with woes to bring him in he said he doesn't even have to write he wouldn't even have to write he could just do his tweets and we can try to they're trying to figure out a way to do something to where he was utilizing that platform breaking news on Twitter and have it like impact traffic over bus feed news I think the thing is as a woes never he never followed up like he they talked but he never came in for a meeting or whatever but I remember thinking I was like this is the only time.

This is the only time that been Smith has been really interested in any sports story any any aspect to sports coverage like he only cares about breaking a new breaking news and I was like I wonder if I need to get on that shit at some point because it seems to be the only thing he cares about and if you know that Smith scoops is you know that might be his middle name.

That's wild.

What's going to Buzzfeed he wanted what he wanted was so bad he wanted was so bad I was a fouls because like I don't know him.

You know, I mean, I just could not I could not help him. I felt like a failure because I couldn't get it.

I can help him get woes, but he wanted was so bad just to do tweets.

Just yeah, well, because that's what it is right it's he wants.

Okay, yes, he wants the scoops, but what does he actually want the scoops for it's for a particular type of Twitter engagement.

Yeah, and that is a currency that I think has been that was so valuable and has since been devalued.

What's interesting right is that none of the none of the big, you know sports, I guess you could say maybe the new basketball TV partners have deemphasized insider to a degree.

They didn't try to go out and recreate, you know, a shoms and get their own shoms in the same way that that some of the others did.

But like, ladies are still a fox.

Yes, PN still has a person at every sport like this, this court has not been cut.

And I almost think now it's like whenever I watch TV and you can mention Pete, so much of what it's on TV TV, TV sports like chat shows,

especially pre game shows, just like the level of discourse about the sport is terrible.

It's like these people don't watch this sport or they just have spent so little time compared to your average football podcaster.

But when you put the insider character on TV, I look up from the couch because I'm like, oh, that person knows something.

Now, maybe they've already broken it on Twitter two minutes ago and I just missed it because I was, you know, doing something else.

But I think the role they serve now is not so much to actually drive traffic, but to give you a reason to watch a television show that you might watch this completely tune out.

Give it some currency.

At this point, it's not even it's just competitive reporting at this point, right?

Like I mean, as opposed to, I mean, it's sort of insider reporting, but I think is particularly sports is like lost people resources reach that is just having people that are willing to do

a series of phone calls all day long and text all day long having somebody that is just there to do that and you can break so it's because not very many people are getting the opportunity to do that even in big coverage because they've got to

contribute to podcast take video do update the website, you know, so many different times. It's not a lot of room for people to do the sort of reporting that Pete,

and Adam, Chef, or Shams are doing right and so it's just even if it doesn't even if it's not quite inside or reporting anymore, I just say it's like we beat everybody to this.

Like it's just we're reporting a thing. It's not even I didn't even have to work that hard to get it, but it's just like it's just like it's just you know, it's the scroll.

Well, it's a character, right? It's it's it's it's this trope that we have a certain type of comfort with because we're just used to them being around.

And we kind of know we know the in jokes about what it is to be an insider like I mentioned this to you guys the other day, but like that whole.

I was think of that story when the bears were meeting with Caleb Williams before the draft.

And I think it was. Sorry if I get this the particular two insiders it might have been.

Brear and Pell Serrow.

Who both reported slightly different versions. I think it was different restaurants of a story about Caleb Williams, a draft prospect who was always always always going to have had a meeting with the bears based on their needs and where they were drafting.

Getting a stake with the team brass.

But it was that one of them said a different restaurant like one of them said it was a steakhouse and the other one said it was Italian or something like that.

And people really like it was very funny. People got a lot of jokes off about the idea of you know the two warring scoops that simply don't matter like they don't tell you anything.

But we do have this fluency with the idea of you know per Adam Schefter like blah blah blah blah blah blah.

And so therefore there's a shared language I think and people sort of have people have come to have a certain type of fun with that.

And particularly in football, which I think like the comparison point to to basketball and the way that the pregame shows differ.

Um football is always has a harder time being personality based than some other sports do.

And so it's almost like the the personality of the insider rather than the personality of an individual person can do some of that work.

It's like this this type of thing that you know what it is and you know what to expect when you turn on the TV and there's comfort for an audience in that.

That's such a good point. So like Kirk cousins isn't going to get us their personality wise.

But Adam Schefter and Jay Glazer typing away furiously on their phones might. And I don't think that's wrong.

Glazer is maybe different because like he does have a weird energy.

But if you heard him on a podcast he's intense yeah he's intense intense is the right one.

But I told you the chapter is a personality maybe like he Adam Schefter is not going to do that.

But the guy who's furiously typing on the blackberry like there's there's something compelling about that or we've sort of all just

culturally agreed that there's something compelling about that. And so that can that's that's good enough I think.

They're almost certainly going to be more prominent than whatever nickel corner they're reporting on to right like more people on TV are

probably going to be more familiar with Adam Schefter and whoever is in that buried in their phone then you know the fourth

you know the fourth the fourth past Russia for whoever you know the green bay packers right definitely

definitely and when they're reporting on that nickel corner by the way they don't know anything about that nickel corner.

Because this is what I love about insider to them now it's like young player you know young player gets a new deal and you look and it's like two years zero million dollars.

Somebody who could be cut at the end of camp is like if this guy walked up to your door. Oh yeah.

Mr. Insider would you recognize that person have you watched this person play one snap ever and like no you have not you have you have no idea who this player is and you have borrowed an adjective

to get you to the point. This is this is where I get really fed up with the current state of affairs is the amount of things that just either mean nothing or are literally wrong.

Like such and such player bet on himself in free agency. And bet on himself is just a stand in for yeah there actually wasn't a whole lot available for this guy because he had a bad season last year and his ankles busted and everybody knows it.

And so therefore this you know incentive laden deal that the team can get out of whatever they want but maybe if he turns into a revelation yeah they'll own a little bit of extra money in three years that's what that means.

But like this is that's what makes me want to tear my hair out about the way that insider reporting works is when you read that and you know it means that but the words that you're reading are so and so bad on himself like.

That's right. I think we need to all take a log look in the mirror. Yeah that's agent language too right.

Well literally yeah right yeah.

Some cases literally when the tweets all read the same. Right like I know Drew Rosenhouse texted you that.

Yeah.

When I think about who empowered the insider I think of one Jack Dorsey by creating Twitter thank you thank you Jack and number two.

I think it's all a podcast because we all have we all did this and I and Joel and I do plenty of media wojbombs on this podcast we are we are not our hands are not clean here.

But when you have a podcast and it has to have stuff on it two three times a week.

Man those insider scoops are real handy. Oh my gosh.

We have something to talk about.

Also people like me who are sitting here saying to you I hate to text so I want a different job but I've worked hard to make that possible for myself but a lot of the raw material of that requires the people who are going to do this.

That is the coal shuffled into the engine.

Adam Shifter reports and now we will have opinion about what Adam Shifter reported.

We'll say this is a good move.

Our Vell Reese going number two.

Okay here we go.

It's the time for the podcast to begin like that has helped our lives immensely.

We have given into that and that has empowered the insider.

There's no question in my mind that that's part of what happened.

Totally.

I do think there are a lot of people a lot of fans out there and a lot of media members but let's start with the fans who love the scoopage of the insider such as it is but feel very

queasy about where those scoops came from especially when they read those oddly worded tweets.

Don't you think when you think of the recene thing and again at this moment we don't know the truth of the matter right so let's just put that over there but don't you think a lot of those fans have been looking for a smoking gun.

They have just been looking for something to happen to say.

The a ha see I knew it I knew that there was something I didn't understand about where all these stories were coming from.

And that that has just been in the background all along whether it's football basketball whatever.

Yes now I think those same fans are mostly going to turn around and apply that and use the evidence.

When it suits them and when it discounts a story that's bad for their team or.

They don't like it.

For those stories that's good for their team but yes I yeah I think that's absolutely true.

I think one of the things that is unfortunate about this story is I wish that smoking gun were being applied to a slightly different.

Type of insider reporting right like I do actually think that the the type of insider that Diana Rossini has been.

Is something that adds more value to the general ecosystem than some of the other types out there now that doesn't mean that but you know it's entirely possible she did something completely disqualifying here and those can be separate things.

But yes I do think that one way or another the finding the smoking gun is sort of satisfying to people.

There's a Kevin Draper story years ago about Joe Duh-Marris when he was running the pistons and he had some evidence in that story.

I remember that was one of those moments was he got figured out how this all works.

I understand how this thing works now and I just feel people have been trying to figure that out for a long time.

Well and I'm I'm embarrassed to admit that I've read some Reddit threads about this particular topic in the last couple of days and the summer.

And it's just it's just gross and it bums you out it bums you out the way that people talk about other people.

One that I guess brings me a sort of a perverse laugh is the amount of jets fans who seem to genuinely believe that.

Reporting about the jets that paints the jets in a bad light as if they needed any help doing that.

Is evidence that like her support for the Patriots.

This man became the head coach of the Patriots of a year ago.

Would lead her to write specifically negative stories about the jets and focus on reporting negative stories about the jets

as a way of advancing his career.

I don't I mean that I mean why I mean that that is that is hilarious because like you've been a jets fan your whole you for a long time.

They don't need any help the jets have been good.

I mean I'm what 47 years old the jets have been good what maybe five years is my life like the parcels years.

The couple of the couple of the Rex Ryan years.

Yeah I mean they don't need but I haven't seen he's not the reason or you know she didn't name him brick.

They're even Johnson.

Couple more notes before we get out of here.

Joel I think you're absolutely right that the athletic in the New York Times proper exist in different spheres.

One thing that's interesting about this story is we're seeing that those fears do overlap in certain ways.

Right like if something happens at the athletic or allegedly happens it is still a New York Times company.

And there's still going to be a different kind of investigation that you know that might happen there that

that is happening there that might happen at a sports website let's say.

I just think that is an interesting part of this.

I do also think not to not to center Peter King anymore in this conversation but them getting into

that business is fascinating you know them saying not just at the price point but just saying like

we're going to build this website around an insider in the various sports just like ESPN has.

They could have they could have designed the athletic in any way.

But we're going to do it in that way you know we're going to have this and then we're going to have a

tier of reporters to come in and write the stories nor is talking about what really happened stories

and we're going to have big coverage but at the top of the heap payroll wise and otherwise is going

to be an insight. Every website or every outlet needs a star or wants to have a star right like they

want somebody that makes you come back and it makes sense that they would bet on Diana because

it's nor said she's like I don't even know her but I know people that know her I say she's a good

hang she's a fun person you know her personality sort of jumps off the screen so it makes sense

that if you were trying to do that that you'd want to kind of how like Ben Smith wanted to bring in

woes you know it's like we got woes now you know and it was I mean think about all the times in our

life that an outlet is brought when the Fort Worth Star Telegraph brought over Randy Galloway

do you remember what a big deal that was in the DFW area right I think yeah so you you want to have

a star but yeah like I mean that's a bet you're making right that that person is going to not only

live up to it but that they're not going to step in it in a way that's going to embarrass you right

when I always flinch when I hear the word star because like when I think of star in a movie you

are buying a ticket to the movie because of persons in it like how many reporters are you paying

to subscribe to the newspaper for you know they can measure this now right it's conversions like

I believe Maggie Haberman that people subscribe to the New York Times because of Maggie Haberman

I believe that is a thing that happens I don't know how many people bought subscriptions the

athletic or the Times for the I never seen or for Shoms I generally do not know that and I think

that'd be kind of an interesting thing to know don't why are you doing that don't do it because then

nobody's ever going to get that money oh the conversions thing you know I don't want to for me

no I'm just I don't want to be measured that's what's but I image did how other people are in Egypt

I don't know that there's that many people who do that consciously but I do think that those

people are such core contributors to the types of stories that we're talking about those we're

going to flesh it out and give you three and a half juicy enough anecdotes and I think people

subscribe to the athletic for those and I don't know that those exist in the same way without those

people so those are the those are the rain makers but yeah you need two or three bylines on each one

of them including a really plugged in insider person who can get things that maybe the other

rapport is not going to be able to get yeah to make that into the full brick Johnson experience

Nora thank you so much for doing this we appreciate you in podcast and text form thanks so

much for being on the press box I was gladly text diver of you oh my goodness thank you so much

for tightening us up to you made it yeah you made us better today absolutely he's Joel Anderson

I'm Brian Curtis Redickson Magic by Isaiah Blakely and Bruce Baldwin coming up on the press box more

Joel Anderson Thursday you got a Rubin Bane story to talk about Joel I got some more I got some

what are you doing Thursday we got to go up you back into football reporting I just hang out

in here so anytime you want to turn the lights on that was got of an interesting insider bomber

not insider bomb wasn't it I'm saying oh well we already knew all the Rubin Bane stuff you guys

go back to doing your mock drafts we got this handle that's Thursday see you then Joel see you

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