‘Furious’ Episodes 1-4 Recap

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Meow.

Prestige TV has we love reading your emails about various shows we cover,

but we thought we might make this all a little bit more personal with our first ever Prestige TV live recording.

We'll be at the Televerse Festival here in Los Angeles on Friday, August 14th.

Tickets are on sale now at televerse.com and we hope to see you there.

So that's August 14th.

You do need to pass the festival to come see us, but Rob and I will be there.

Talk in television, our first ever live recording.

Come join us.

We'd love to see you.

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast.

I'm Jorda Robinson.

I'm Yasi Salah.

We are here to talk about episodes one through four of the Hulu show Furious.

So we want to start with this spoiler warning for that.

If you have not watched up through episode four Flashflud of Furious,

go do that and then come back to listen to this podcast.

Anything else I want to say?

I just want to mention one of the lead actresses in this Lola Petty crew,

who is amazing.

We do know that they use they them pronouns.

So sorry Lola.

Throughout when we discuss it, we end up reverting back to she pronouns

mostly because we were just talking about the character, but we just wanted to fly that

and give a heads of apology.

Lola, we love you.

We know that you go by them.

So we apologize if it gets a little cloudy in there when we're discussing Catherine Grace, your character.

Rob, we back and if I know Rob, he will also love the show.

So we will probably be covering this week to week.

This was sort of a surprise show that came out of nowhere for us.

Who's like, nah, we told you, but I was surprised by it.

We got a ton of emails from listeners and ton of comments about covering it.

I don't always listen to the watching because I never want to cannibalize Chris and Andy's takes.

But when Chris Ryan texts me, are you watching this show?

I will watch it and that is what happened with Furious.

What was your experience coming to this show?

Well, I'm a major Lola Petty crew fan because I loved her on say nothing.

And then we kind of struck up a friendship, not to drop a name directly onto this.

Wow.

Sorry, mere minutes in.

mere minutes in there.

They're like, bring Rob back.

No, but she's so cool.

She's a, she's just a cool person who's really into music.

So we just bonded on that.

But so I knew about it primarily because she was posting about like this is coming.

And I was like, oh, whatever it is, I'm going to watch it because I'm she's so incredible of an actress.

Yeah.

And then Chris Ryan also texted me, are you watching?

And I was like, oh, I haven't yet.

But it's on my list.

And then I did.

And then you and I had brunch on Sunday.

And I was like, come on the podcast.

And I was like, and cram four episodes of television.

Why not?

Say no more, fam.

I was like, watch TV during the day on a Monday as my job.

Wow.

Tiny by little.

Pressuse TV at Spotify.com is how you can email us about the show.

We might come up with like a.

The spoke email for this show.

We'll see.

But for right now, press the TV at Spotify.com.

That is where you can demand that we watch cover certain shows.

And guess what guys it worked for this one.

We are going to talk kind of specifically about episode four.

But I had texted you this morning.

I was like, hey, heads up.

I'm going to ask you about the score of the show because it's rather distinctive,

especially in like the first few episodes.

And then you were like, oh, cool, cool story.

I actually want to talk about the needle drops.

Well, so well, let's take advantage of having you, Yassie.

I will, I said it on your podcast.

I'll say it on my podcast, a music expert hosted bands playing.

Let's let's hear from you about the score and the music use on the show.

Okay.

What is your vibe right on the spot?

Yeah.

Well, the score I found really compelling and cool.

And it's like, obviously a little bit offbeat.

Not that the beat is off, but it's a little different.

And I was trying to think about like why I responded to it so much.

And I think it's like a more holistic thing of like how I'm really obsessed.

I can't wait to talk to you about this.

I'm obsessed with how this show tonally is not what you might expect for a show

that's dealing with abuse.

Heavy issues.

Heavy trauma.

Violence towards women, sexual abuse towards women.

And I loved that because it's a thing that I've thought about for a long time

because I tend to like kind of dislike the depictions of,

I don't love depictions of abuse against women in general stuff.

But I find them pretty often very like after school specially or very heavy handed

or like without nuance or you know what I mean.

And so when you see someone that I'm a huge Liz Mary,

where they're fans, I'm just gonna say upfront like Liz Mary,

whether I love you so much.

I hope you make a thousand more television programs.

New Girl forever.

I like, oh, of course, like a woman with this sensibility made this and she understands that like

even even if you experience this kind of trauma,

which I would say probably like unfortunately a great deal of women have.

Yeah, you know that it's not just one note.

You know that sometimes you crack a joke about it or some like

there's a million emotions around it.

And I think to bring it back to the score,

I think the score gets that and like doesn't pummel you with like

sad violence all the time or whatever.

Heavy string, sort of placement.

Yeah, what about you?

What did you think about it?

I don't know. It's just like an interesting sort of like vocalization.

There's this sort of like,

panting breath sound and the bass.

And it's just sort of like, it's both like slightly sexual,

but then also kind of panicky, which is a perfect sort of brew for what we're watching here.

And you sort of like at any given moment is deployed,

it can give you a different flavor.

It's very like adaptable that way.

So I don't know. It's just very distinctive.

It really got to me.

And like the first episode,

and I you know, I talked to Chris about this or whatever and Andy about this actually.

But like I bumped a little on Emmy Rossum's performance.

And it's one of those things where,

and then I watched several more episodes and I realized that the character is posturing.

In a way that I was just sort of like,

I watched Emmy Rossum for years on Shameless.

I'm a big fan of her work.

And I was like, wow, she's like,

you know, her voice is down a couple of registers.

Why does her hair look like that?

Like what is, you know, big, big white as a hair looks like that.

Like for sure.

And then it's just sort of like, oh, she's putting on this sort of hard front demeanor.

And she's like, no matter what, like a tough person, you know,

any mean in a way that I like.

But like, I was just sort of like,

it felt like slightly bad acting from an actor that I think is fantastic.

And then when you peel back the layers a bit more and you realize that she herself is posturing.

And then I was just like, wow, I really love this performance so much.

I felt like they did like kind of,

I don't know if they did it on purpose,

but like a bit of like a funny beat and switched with the beginning of the first episode.

Cause I felt a little bit the same way about just the cop stuff in general.

I was like, okay, we're like laying around like like,

um, scoop McNary's character.

It was amazing.

I love.

But like the first time it kind of you see him and he's like, don't you miss this?

The smell of a dead body in a hallway.

And I was like,

but then I was like, oh, like they're they are tricked us into being like,

this is just one of those boilerplate like,

right.

And then you realize it's not that at all.

It's so cool when you start to like realize, oh, this is like so much more than what is on the surface.

I'm also slightly like, I love this show.

I love this show.

I am slightly confused by Scoots accent because he's, I think he's giving like Boston cop a bit,

but like, but maybe transfer.

But are I think they all grew up not like a Leningrasco who who who's no, it's, um,

I'm going to SVU.

Who is the SVU?

I know watch SVU.

Excuse me.

I know.

I know.

It's okay.

We can still be friends.

We're all on our Richard Belzer's character who is like famously on homicide,

which is that not a Boston could be.

Okay.

I'm fired already from the TV.

No, no, no, I'm exposing that I don't watch police procedures.

And as I'm just saying, you know, sometimes you get you, you put in for a transfer.

It's a one-conquering transfer.

On the on the other side, you know,

Lola Pettacrew who is someone you know an actor, I really admire.

Uh, Robin, I covered say nothing.

We loved her in that show so much.

She's incredible.

Uh, she's Irish.

She's doing an American accent.

It doesn't bother me.

Like, you know, it's like slightly funky and it doesn't bother me because her whole thing is a performance.

And so, uh, that all works for me.

I think this sort of, and I do want to come back to the music,

but I think this two-hander of we're with a cop, we're with a serial killer, very,

very killing Eve.

Like what Lola is doing in this reminds me a lot of what Jody Comer did and season one of killing,

killing Eve was just like an incredible calling card for an actor.

And I just like loved it.

So this sort of like, we're with two sides or, or, I don't know if you ever watched the Jillian interested in, uh,

show the fall, like we're just sort of like in with Jamie Dorn and serial killer and Jillian interested in cops.

So the show is split across these two perspectives.

And, um, in a way that I just like, I, I really enjoy and I just,

I don't know, I'm just so excited to talk about this show.

Tell me, tell me more about the me.

It was just a couple of Neil drops that I like, I totally noticed, I, I noticed Chris obviously would notice it too,

because when I listened, he pointed out too, but like the Rob Delaney character,

that's episode one, right, where she makes her way through the first meeting.

Yeah.

And he's like, Mr. like, you know, blown coke and like, I'm a lawyer.

And he puts on a geese song and I was like, oh, that's so funny,

because that's not just like incidental.

Like, he totally is like, it's like the kind of thing a guy who like thinks he's cooler than he is.

And thus has access to like the most low hanging fruit of what is like cool music,

because it's like risen to the top of like NPR and sports or whatever would put on.

And I like, I was like, oh, there's a ball, no, we're in this writer's room or this music supervision room.

It's also really interesting because like the, the, I'm just a boy whose intentions are good.

Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

Like that lyric is on the nose in that episode or like, have you seen her tell me if you've seen her in episode four?

But these are just like killer songs and it fits the mood perfectly in his room.

Yeah. There was, there was like another, there's a Fontaine's DC song also,

um, boys in the better land.

I think I want to say maybe it's the cop bar that comes on.

Okay.

Um, and then the, uh, to your point about on the nose, when the Cass Elliott song drops, like it's getting better after like,

they're like, oh, it's so good.

Like it's um, Jake Lacey's character and Scumic Terry's character and like, good to be working together again.

You know, when it's like clearly it's not good to work together again.

I like that the music is, yeah.

I think music supervision is endlessly fascinating to me.

And obviously there's so many ways you can deploy songs.

It can just be for emotional purposes.

It can just be like, oh, I love that song.

But I feel like this was like really intentional.

Yeah.

The way that I enjoy it.

A lot of people are watching this show and a lot of people are really excited about the show.

And, and I've been encountering some people who are, who are like, am I supposed to like,

um, roleless character or Catherine Grace, uh, not, not Alice, um, though maybe some people are asking that question.

And I actually frankly don't care if people like female characters.

I think that is just a, a really worn out question to ask personally.

But like, my temptation is to just always be on the side of women who kill.

That's just something about me.

And so when she's killing these guys, I'm like, I'm sure there's a reason.

And I was like, I don't know about it.

But like what the show is doing with her, where are her boundaries?

So this is a question, a question that Chris posed to me about scoop magnaries character Danny Kelly,

uh, the most Irish cop character name of all time.

Um, you know, he, he was like, he, he was like, this is a guy so good that I'm worried he won't survive the season.

That's what Chris said to me.

And it made me very anxious.

But I also have this other fear of this is a guy so good, I'm worried he's going to disappoint me.

And that's like, that's an energy I bring in an episode four.

We have the character of Nora, who is like presented as like troubled and, you know,

loves to drink like from episode one is like, I'm drunk like all the sort of stuff like that.

I'm obsessed with her.

But like, I also am obsessed with her, but disappoints me in this episode four because like,

her name is on a cold case and she takes Alice off the case.

I know.

I know.

I love all this though because it's like, it's almost like the show dares to ask the question,

what if women are also people?

Right.

What if women are also just people who are flawed and fucked up and have their own agendas and are afraid of consequences

and do not always act purely and, and for the most moral reasons?

Yeah.

And that's like kind of a through line of the show for everything.

It's around Catherine, it's around Nora.

So it's maybe probably hopefully going to be presented with Alice like every character so far.

It's like, yeah, no one, no one's hands are clean.

I think, I think that's true.

I think it's interesting when they're like, Nora is behaving away like, I don't need her hands to be clean,

but she disappoints me in that she sort of betrays Alice at the end of this episode.

Do you know what I mean?

And that, that disappoints me.

I'm not like out on the character at all.

I'm sort of like, oh, I'm just saying that that's attention.

Like, it's not, I'm worried about who Catherine's going to kill next,

because I'm just like, it's going to be a guy who abused young women.

Like, that's a help facilitate.

Um, you know, like Campbell Scott, I'm so excited.

I was like, I heard his voice.

I was like, that's my dog.

Yeah.

Look at him sing.

Campbell Scott's here, but I'm just like, if he doesn't make it, find me.

I don't care if he does it.

Like, whatever's coming to him, I'm pretty sure he deserves it.

But like, to have Nora disappointed me, it almost hurts more than anything else.

Um, to have Marshall's mom turn on Alice to your point, like these women inside of here.

And, and the young woman we meet in the first episode, when, uh, they're in the hospital room,

and they're looking at this, this young woman who they were going to have testify.

Nora's like, oh, she was a trafficer.

She's a trafficer.

I guess.

I guess the way in which women are involved across the board in these abuses,

as well as all the horrible men that we meet on the show for sure.

Um, I guess maybe for people that don't know anything about the show,

should we tell them like, sort of like the top one of what it's about?

I guess I should end up the episode.

I just sort of assume that if you're here to talk about, uh, to listen to,

to a podcast about furious, then, but if you want to, you want to give the big picture?

It's like broadly, right?

It's about a cop, a cop on one hand, a cop who has left the force.

Due to an unfortunate circumstance with her other cop boyfriend who beat the shit out of her.

When she did not even, she didn't lodge even a formal complaint.

She simply mentioned it.

I love that you say unfortunate circumstances beat the shit out of her.

And so she was like, okay, I'm going to become like a baby FBI.

And then sort of through some circumstances, her, her desire is to be in sex crimes.

Through some circumstances, gets involved in the case of these two murders that she's able to link.

And then murders we are seeing are perpetrated by little pedigree's character,

who's I guess we don't really know at the first.

Yeah.

And that's like, then, then we're all in.

You nailed it.

Thank you so much.

I feel like I probably missed some extremely important points, but no, that's good.

Um, yeah, I just, I just think that like the,

I think the points of tension are really interesting to me because it's not the murder is like, is Catherine,

is Catherine going to hurt the daughter of, you know, this, this guy who she has decided deserves to die.

But, but what does the daughter know?

Does she know too much?

Like, where is her morality there?

Is that woman in danger?

Is the guy that she's taking care of this character, Alden, is she in danger?

Because like, I love him.

Yeah.

Uh, Steve way, really, really fun.

But like, um, is he in danger?

Like, should I be scared for him?

Or like, inside of this episode when he says, I want to be your boyfriend.

And she's like, I can feel my fingertips again.

Like she has a like seemingly genuine, positive.

Right.

I am, I'm, I guess, pushing through some of the physical traumatic response that I've had to what has happened to me in this moment.

I wanted to ask you that I, and maybe I misunderstood it.

I thought she couldn't feel her fingers because they like burned off her like, uh, fingerprints or something.

I think it's a, I think, oh, the traumatic response.

I think so.

I think it goes back to in that first episode when she's in sort of like the group, um, the abuse shelter.

And she's talking to the young woman and she's like, you can just pretend it didn't happen to you that he didn't exist.

That your body doesn't exist.

Like this disassociated.

The same thing that she kind of coaches Rob Delaney's character.

She's like, I just look at my leg and say those aren't my, that was my interpretation.

And so like in feeling her fingertips again, it's just sort of like she's not undone the trauma, but just sort of like push through to the other side of this, of this trauma response that she had was my, was my take.

I'm just, I'm so blown away by her performance.

I mean, again, I know I'm a little biased, but like, I just feel like this, she does the smallest things with her face, where you see like that she.

It's part of the reason that I think you're right to be a little fearful for Alden, because she's like a master manipulator.

That's what she has had to become right survive.

And you see it like she's looking at one of the male characters that she's manipulating and her face is one way and the minute they turn away, her face completely shifts.

Oh yeah.

Like completely goes into this other face, you know, and you're like, wow, like you are really turning it on, turning it off, like moving through the world in order to like survive.

When she's on the date and episode four with Lancer with 10 fish guy.

Sorry, I'm just really into 10.

I was like, perfect.

This like talking about mom Donnie's free bus plan, bisexual, 10 fish loving, drinking cloudy organic wine, like absolute douche bag.

I know this guy perfectly.

Very familiar.

The look on her face to your point of like not just when he looks away, but just sort of like she has this way of smile that's a grimace.

Yeah.

That is like so funny and so perfect.

She also has, you know, to go back to sort of the Liz Mary, whether as creator, new girl of it all.

She has this sort of like almost whims, a quirk, delicious like manic pixie dream girl energy to her that is like fun and funny and terrifying.

When the when the guy's dying, kill Abieson is dying in the first episode and she's on the stairs with him and he's like about to die and she's like, I don't like sound of your, I don't like listening to you, but I do have your smile.

It's like, you know, and she does this like little almost like Alexis Rose from shits Creek, like little like, boom, face to him.

You know, and it's just like it's scary and funny and genius.

And the way in which she is in this state of arrested development, but to your point of master manipulator.

And the way in which I mean the show is not making it unsuddle the way in which Alice and Catherine are in a very, we're not so different you and I space the way that Alice can in any interrogation tell a lie to get what she needs out of the person that she's interrogating and everyone notices it even like you didn't grow up in a foster even like Frank Choi.

And I'm like, I'm a fan of FBI agent who does not like her play by Rob Young who I love from succession. He's so funny amazing. I have some notes on him.

But like for him to be like, you know, she I really she pisses me off, but she's really good, you know, and she just like she can play the roles that she needs to play to get what she needs. And it is exactly what Catherine is doing only with more murder.

Yeah, well, I think it's like that's so brilliant because it for me it's like ties back into like and maybe not hashtag not all women will relate, but like I think that's like a core like thing about being a woman in the world.

I want to succeed slash survive. Unfortunately, that's part of the game, you know, and some women aren't willing to do it. And I have my hat is off to them, but like the rest of us like that's how you get through that's how you get by that's how you get ahead, you know, because the other doors are not open.

And if you don't learn that, you know, and I have not really seen a show or remember, I'm sure I have, but like I can't remember the last time seen because it's a negative quality, right?

You're supposed to judge it.

Like, and you're like, oh, but I also think that like to add to that you have in this episode, episode four, you have.

And how does Campbell Scott's character his son is blanchored just like the name is amazing.

So perfect.

And then his wife is played by Janel Maloney from West Wing, etc. But like a perfect.

Yes, more importantly, a perfect sort of like wasp performance.

Similarly, you cast hope Davis is like the iconic wasp sort of situation. Like we're just missing Laura Lennie, honestly.

The tri-factor, the holy wasp, uh, Trinity, but like the way in which, um,

Janel Maloney's character, his name I don't have in front of me, but like the way in which they're too liberal and too polite to like kick her out of their house is so funny to me.

But then of course, like, you know, when we find out that how is part of this family, you know that they are somehow deeply entrenched in this horrible web of sex trafficking and abuse.

But there is this sort of pretence of liberal niceness that is part of this family is part of this like New York liberal, uh, fakeness that's in here and I love it.

It's really, I mean, I know it's like not, not like, you know, reinventing the wheel or it's it's not like not a little bit obvious, but I do think it's genius how that it's like really up with the times like these sort of like sideways glances at the Epstein of it all, you know, like, like, and and a liberal, you know, like the idea that like there are these like pillars of mom Donnie's New York society, but their their hands are just as dirty.

They're in the picture. They have a 15 year old in their lap. Yeah, is like the way in the interrogation scene when, um, when Hope Davis's character Emma Emma Houston, which is like, um, you know, we're doing a charity to raise awareness for my father's cancer.

And um, and Alice is like, oh, that's amazing. That's just amazing.

You know, or watching the video that she watches of, you know, this other charity event that they've done and earlier in the season and watching like Jay Easton, like sort of hand this award off to these young girls and Alice can just clock.

What is off and what is wrong in body language is really off. Yeah. I want to talk to you about the casting of the men in this show because we were talking a little bit before we started recording about Jake Lacey who plays Marshall, um, Alice's ex ex boyfriend, they were childhood sweethearts.

Um, he beat the show her, she has is now forced to work with him.

Um, you know, Chris was saying like, oh, it's such countercasting to have Jake Lacey show up this like good guy and we were talking before we started recording about how this is like a microgenerational reaction to Jake Lacey who did play the like the consumnet good guy for a long time in Hollywood.

And then he did white Lotus and ever since he did white Lotus, he is actually like played the most raging douchebag since Gary assholes. And so like I think for a lot of people they're like, oh, Jake Lacey's here.

He just is a jerk. And for other people who saw high fidelity or obvious child or all these other things that Jake Lacey did before, it's almost like the casting that Emerald Van El did and promising a woman where she like got all these nice guys to play these abusers.

But I do think she's doing that, uh, Liz Marywell is doing that elsewhere when you have, uh, Rob Delaney, the internet's boyfriend, the world, the internet's best boyfriend, the funniest guy in the world.

Love Rob Delaney. Campbell Scott is here. I love Campbell Scott. Yeah.

But I know that I'm going to find out that he has been up to some scary skanky shit. And so it's just like that kind of I don't know that I would put Jake in that bucket, but maybe, but I would definitely put

when Rob Delaney showed up, I was like, this is just a perfect use of Rob Delaney. Yeah. It was wonderful. And also giving him a daughter. It's because it's, it's truly one of my, it's a girl that

the things that bring me because my blood will the most words like, I understand because I have a daughter and I was like, okay, so it took you bearing child

to understand the humanity of women as a father of daughters. And so if you don't have daughters, that's fine. You just be killed. That's okay. But now I understand now that I made one. I get it.

And this is also maybe like a very specific house of our thing. But the actor who's playing Jay Easton, who seems like the biggest bad of them all played father Lance, I'm on daredevil, who's just sort of like this Kylie priest figure, you know, any of

you like, I don't know how many, furious watchers also watched all of daredevil on Netflix, but like I did. And so he's been in a lot of other things, but like that's another guy where I was just sort of like I'm used to feeling very warmly towards him. And I'm just like, whatever you did sir, I am horrified to find out about it.

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I'm so obsessed with this show and what it's doing with the trope of the perfect victim tell me you know well because I think that's a thing right like it's like you want a victim to be perfect you want them to not have done anything.

Bad or do anything bad because then you can morally justify anything they do do but one thing I wanted to ask you about it's like so far so good right except that she clearly murdered the woman that ran the shelter that that she blackmailed and coerced into helping her procure drugs and wigs and and cleaning products and and that woman you know.

I don't know if she did deserve it I mean you know I'm not a gray area because she seduced her and she's and she was like an opposition of power so like you could but it's like oh like what about that one you know she's she still is like when she asked the question is like do you think you're a good person you know what I mean I do I do I mean that's a thing is like where is her line it's unclear you know what I mean it's just sort of like I think for a lot of people who are not me watching at home they're like hey she shouldn't kill anyone and I'm like she should kill all those two that's how I feel about it.

But I certainly the first one she should have disemboweled him but I think that like that woman who worked at the shelter yeah I think that's an interesting question to to the to the early conversation of like you know can women be shitty too on the show absolutely Marshall's mom again like pouring honey and then just sort of like turning on her and all the rest yeah this this woman

I mean let's hope that this is the first person that she ever had sex with at the shelter but like these are abused scared women and yes Catherine Grace did like seduce her yeah like put the moves on her but like one should know you know I don't think she should have died but like you know yeah so that is like a that's a serious fucked up thing to do that again why I think it's great right like also that victim's not perfect it's just like this continuous thing like what's

where does your responsibility lie how how big is the spectrum of badness you know who deserves what yeah and back to Nora's character who like even though like of course that was disappointing because you're like oh you're impeding you know but you're punishing Alan you're making out here's the thing my read of this it's just the end of the episode we don't know what's going to happen in the next episode I don't imagine that Alice is just off the case for the season there's like another half of the season but like

for her to say to to make Alice feel like it's her fault right you know but she's pushed up against the wall right like I think they did a really good job of for me anyways I was like oh this shitty male boss again there's always like another layer the shitty male boss

who was awful to her yeah and who I mean or she's a drunk I would be too if I had to look at child porn all day babe I would be to do at the office all day just to get through and this man basically threatened her you know he definitely did he did and it's like so she's like she's like do I lose my career no I mean I or do I like act on the fly again like what do I do to like survive I understand why she did what she did I'm just saying like I I would hope

that instead of making this young woman who is like under her like tutelage feel like she fucked up by defending herself against her shitty abusive boyfriend she she gaslights her yeah like saying you fucked up now I understand to your point I understand why she did it like because she was threatened and she's terrified to see her name on this case and is is come back going to come back to bite her and is it going to bite her boss will then like you know destroy her

destroy her expose her all of them I just like I was just like oh man I just really wish you two were in it together and I mean like from the very beginning Nora has been

you know teaching Alice but also derisive towards Alice that's great that's you know it's a complicated character that's great this is just the moment where I was just sort of like your gaslighting this woman who like every shitty guy around her except for perfect angel baby scoop McNary I'm so scared

but like every single guy around her has made her feel this way and now you're just hopping on over to the patriarchy side to make her feel that way as well and I can't I think it's cool no I mean it is it's good I like it's good storytelling but yes and I can be emotionally disappointed

I just I'm like oh it's so cool it's been so easy to make this like that's my mentor that's my home girl you know she's she's gonna put me under her wing and take care of me I don't mean that it needs to be like

tiny lolly pop so just think there's like you're like you're always trying to figure out where the line is yeah and it's just sort of like there's the like in the episode one Nora telling her like oh were you abused

for you yeah whatever you're like that shitty but like she's tough but fair right and then this just tidied over into tough but unfair in a way that I was just sort of like oh I was hoping there was a line here yeah and she just sort of like

you know, drunkenly reeled across it.

But I'm interested to see, like, will she come back from it?

Right.

Will she, like, make up for it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess what I'm saying is just like, I'm, I'm, I love every subverted expectation

because I'm, I'm not used to it.

You know, and I, and I, there was like a couple of things.

These are, these are like, I was wondering if you clocked them because I was just like,

yes, I know this thing.

Like when she's Alice is in, I think one of the first meetings with, um,

the detective Frank Choi, who clearly makes it extremely clear that he hates her and does

all think she's good enough.

And he says to her, you lucked out your baby agent, you really lucked out.

And her, like, again, the micro acting on her face where it's like how many times have

you been told you're just lucky?

Mm-hmm.

You know, like, you don't belong here.

Yeah.

You, you're lucky.

Right.

They earned it, but you're lucky.

Yeah.

And it's like feminism, the hot, pink pussy hat has, right on my head, but I'm like,

I was, these little things that I was just like, oh, like, I just hope and imagine like,

a bunch of women watching this and being like, I know him.

Yeah.

I work with that guy.

Like, I've seen that guy before.

I've seen that look before.

The blanchard date moment when he was like, I love that you're a former sex worker and you

advocate for sex work and so like that and then calls her a slut and bed and he's like,

sorry, I can't come unless I say that.

Like, sorry, respectfully, you know, or like, or her response, which I love, again,

unexpected, where you would think she would manipulate in a different way, but he goes,

how did that make you feel?

And she goes really angry.

And it's like, oh, you were just honest, you know?

And he was like, you know, like, it's just, she's like, Ally, what can I say?

Any other micro aggression moments that you want to

call out while you have your pink pussy hat on?

This, I don't know if this is a microgri-

this just made me laugh really hard and I wondered if anyone else or if you, you laughed at it

when there when Choi and Jake Lacey's character are watching

Yeah.

Alice and Irish.

Did he count count or anyone's names?

You know, talk to Hope Davis.

Yeah.

And he gets her, she gets her, her to admit something or say something and Choi goes,

oh, like, he's like so excited and the look that Jake Lacey gives him, he's like,

it's, I just couldn't stop laughing.

I was like, I was like, because his reaction was really bizarre.

It was just something like so awful that the woman said and he was like,

oh, and I was like, where should not be like, you know,

Arsene O'Hall, who, who about this?

Um, no, I mean, the show finds ways to engage in, and like,

I, the drop out, which is Liz Maryweather's other show, um,

in addition to Dying for Sex, but um, about,

Elizabeth Holmes, that one also found a lot of ways to be like quite funny inside of a really,

like, upsetting story that it's telling.

And so she, the way in which she's been able to take that this new girl sensibility

and take it into these darker corners of our reality is just completely wild to me.

And, and to go back to Scoot McNary's character, Danny Kelly and, and Alice, like,

they have a, will they, why am I rooting for a will they want they inside of this like,

horrible sex crime murder show?

I know.

But I'm like, can these two crazy kids work it out?

Yeah.

You know, will they survive this torrential downpour inside of this episode?

You know, you made me think of another layer that I'm like, oh, this is so interesting, like,

to the point of like, is this Alice character likable, right?

She pays, not pays, mishpays them.

I don't know.

She meets guys on dating apps and has them compete her up because she likes that, you know?

And like, it's not entirely explained why or if that predates her abuse or if that's a direct

result of her abuse, but like, complicated.

And you can God bless Danny Kelly when he, when she tells him and he's just like,

it just want you to be happy.

He's like, is that what you need?

Is that what you want?

Yeah, like he doesn't seem to be like, I don't think I can do that.

You know, I don't understand at all, but he isn't like, are you insane?

Yeah, he's not yucky and yum.

You know, he's not yucky and yum.

And obviously, the yum is very complicated.

It's like, who, I just, at every, every turn, I'm like, wow, like, someone really thought about

this. Someone is, you know what?

Show it kind of reminded me a little of, I may destroy you.

Yeah.

That was, that was maybe the first time I saw that that show, just speaking of absolutely

destroying me.

Yeah.

But that was one of the first times I experienced that in a show where I was like, oh, like, this is,

this is because as much as it's kind of like a little hard to watch things like S.F.E.

or whatever, it's all very glossy and fake, you know, in a way that I,

well, the isn't the idea behind.

So I don't watch, not fake, but you know, I don't watch it on order.

It's tidy.

Like the reason that a lot of people love procedural's my understanding is that like,

and especially procedures like S.V.E. or something like that were something horrific happens,

but it's going to be resolved within the hour.

And there's not time to characterize the victim, like,

complicate that.

Yeah.

It's going to be resolved.

You're going to watch this horrible thing on murder or something like that,

but then these detectives who you're with are going to solve it in an hour.

And you don't even have to remember what happened last week in order to like feel the safety of

that at the end of the day.

And, you know, similar to like a lot of people I love and respect and admire,

love murder podcasts.

It's not for me, but like, it's something that brings them comfort and safety to hear that sort of like,

what is it?

I think this idea of safe scary, right?

Where it's just sort of like, you feel you hear something scary,

but you feel safe while you're hearing it.

And so it just sort of like makes the scary world that you navigate feel safe for it.

And so, and this is not that.

This is not that.

I also, I don't broke containment.

I wish I had said it in the top of the show, but I wish I had recapped the show.

The top of the show.

You have a lot of wishes.

I want to like point out that like, if if you've experienced sexual assault or trauma or like

anything in this realm, this show is not easy to watch.

You know, like it's enjoyable in so many ways, but it's also like the same as to me if I may

destroy you.

It's like, you're going to have to think about stuff that maybe you wouldn't have to think about

when you're watching another show that deals with it because it confronts you with that stuff.

By like kind of mirroring back if that makes sense.

Absolutely.

So I do wonder like how that is going to like, it's a different experience to watch that.

And you know, I don't have statistics in front of me.

I don't want to be a grazing out of me episode where they're like,

hey, Joanna, did you know that, um, you know, 72% of women have been assaulted or whatever,

but probably 72% of women.

It's higher than you think.

And I think it's, you know, we were talking about this before.

We started recording this idea of like, yeah, you can watch this show through the lens of

I've experienced something similar to this.

Yeah.

You can watch this show through the lens of I'm a woman moving through the world.

And so there are aspects of this that I'm going to understand.

And then you can watch this show as like a man who hasn't experienced any of that,

but this is a compelling story that you're watching.

And there are things that are going to sort of like pass you by as there are any time you watch a show

that is like dealing with hyper specific experiences that are not your own.

And I have that happen to me all the time.

But it's still a very compelling, well done, not,

I don't think it's a subtle show at all.

I would not accuse it of being a subtle show.

But I to go back to your grades and not to be comp,

I don't feel like I'm being preached to at any point.

And being preached to, even if it's about a subject matter you care a lot about,

can be so off-putting or just like really shut you down.

But what this is is compelling, occasionally humorous, sexy, exciting, violent, dangerous,

good storytelling.

It's visually amazing.

Like some of like, also, she pulls those wigs off.

She does.

And then where's those cool masks?

Like, she makes the killing look very sexy.

I mean, that's, and there are stickers involved as well.

Because she's, because she's mentally 15, as you pointed out earlier.

Like that's another recurring theme, right?

This woman is arrested, developed.

She's 30, I think, right?

Ostensibly, I think we did the math.

It was 15 years ago, 14 years.

Yeah, she's 29.

Right.

But she's obviously not 29.

I just prefer this.

This just feels so much more honest to me than like the recent spate of

Mommy Murder shows is what I call them, which is just sort of like,

they're insanely popular.

It's all echoes off of the big, littleized phenomenon.

Okay.

Just sort of this like,

beach-read Mommy Murder,

they drop almost weekly on like peacock or Amazon or something like that.

And like,

it's like a rich woman in his life isn't as good as she thinks it is.

Right.

There's just like, you know, maybe Jake Lacey has betrayed her in some way.

That's right.

To ship from succession, you know what I mean?

Sure.

This, these shows exist.

I think they're really poorly done in terms, for the most part, in terms of like,

how the twists and turns unveil themselves.

And for this show, for the question of like,

who did what to whom?

Not really being the point at all of the show.

It's not trying to shock and surprise you when you like,

find out about Isabel and her connections to Catherine.

And, you know, as we do in this episode,

whatever, however the case continues to reveal itself,

that is not the shock, there's no shock value to that in the show.

When we meet Jay Eason, we're like, that dude did something horrible.

I can just tell.

Yeah.

And hope Davis knows about it.

I'm not surprised.

You know what I mean?

Like, all of that stuff, I'm just, I'm just not,

it's not trying to fool me or surprise me.

It's trying to engage me in the real ramifications, the real damage.

That this does.

And then what are the choices you make after that?

You know, Nora says something in episode one about like,

basically hurt people, hurt people,

which, which I know a lot of people who have experienced abuse in their life,

push back on that because they're like,

we've got to hate that idea of hurt people or people.

Because then there's like an assumption in that just because you

experienced abuse of whatever stripe at some point in your life,

that you are now like a dangerous person.

But Nora, when she's talking about it,

she's like, let's talk about the choices people make at the end of the day.

Around this.

Yeah.

And so I thought it was good because she kind of,

if I remember correctly, she followed up with something like,

I know actually a lot of these tariff girls never murder anyone.

They don't murder her.

She says she's like, it's not.

And I thought they did a really great job.

Like, they drop in that little bit when Alice and

dating Kelly go to the foster home.

And the woman is like, she was weird.

You know, like, there was something there.

There was already some, like, she was always a little off.

So it's like, okay, like not all hurt people turn into like,

avenging murders, like serial killers.

But you you pair a few things together.

Like a girl that's already probably a little mentally,

you know, unsound and a heap this much abuse and trauma.

And you take her best friend away like,

this game over a bit.

She's going, going to, going to kill the spring.

It's going to acquire some fentanyl.

A few not amazing wigs.

The shot of when she takes the red wig off,

they're like sort of Russian nesting doll wigs.

Like you meet her in the blonde wig.

And then her commitment to the bit where she has this red wig

that she wears when she's like, Jenny, right?

Yeah.

And she takes a shower.

Wait, wait, wait.

I was like, what's happening right now?

I guess she couldn't come back and be like, I have a new hair.

You know, what else you want to talk about that we haven't hit?

I really, really appreciated the daughter aspect.

Even though I think it could have been cheap and easy.

But I thought like, again, I know it's like,

it's not a subtle show.

But like starting with the like, my dad won't let me cut my hair

because he wants me to have a boyfriend.

And then that last scene where she's holding scissors

and all her hairs on the floor.

And it's unclear.

Right.

Did she do that herself?

Because she's been made aware of what a monster her father was

or did, you know, did Catherine for sort like,

and like, my arm hair standing.

So I'm like, that was really cool.

Like, that's a really, like, what is it?

And I still don't know.

It's, again, it's not over explaining it's not,

but it's like doing a glance

that like, is the most important thing in the world?

The male gaze is the most important thing in the world

to be attractive to men, you know?

At 15.

Yeah.

I just, um, the way she takes all the time to curl the hair

and then it's chopped off.

And it's unclear.

It is unclear whether or not Catherine did the shopping

or this girl did the shopping.

But it's the, it's Catherine sort of like intent

and impact that that be the end result.

Totally.

Let's curl your hair and make it look exactly

how your dad wants it to look before it's all gone.

It's all gone.

And the sense that you get that when they interrogate her

that she is protecting her.

Oh yeah.

That she's protecting Catherine, you know?

Absolutely.

And like, yeah, she's going to be so traumatized

because she's this murder or whatever.

And it's like actually like, you're like, no, she.

She gave me this photo to give to you.

Yeah.

And in terms of like a cat and mouse idea,

this idea that like,

Catherine knew this girl would be interrogated,

gave her this photo and said, give it to the cops

and then finds out from Campbell Scott and the elevator

that the cops not only have the photo, so that worked.

No, worked, yeah.

But are asking the right questions about it

and she gets this little smile on her face?

Like, it's working.

Like, I'm going on this killing spree,

but I'm also leaving a breadcrumb trail for the cops

so that hopefully they will, you know?

And that's what, you know, the question is like,

are we doing what she wants us to do

by like focusing on Jay Eason instead of her?

But I'm like, who's the bigger problem?

Right.

Maybe my morals are fucked up.

But I just like.

Well, I wanted to ask you like,

because sorry, I don't know if you do this on this show

or if I'm also very dumb and don't understand things.

But like, are you speculating based on the pregnancy,

the based on the, the, the Jane Doe that has found

that were meant to understand is her best friend?

And who was pregnant?

Is about, yeah.

Is about, are we meant to speculate

that that was Jay Eason's child

or a man in power's child

and that's why she was murdered

and then that's also why it was buried?

Because the implication, which I didn't completely grasp

but was that like, this, this case went nowhere

because that high up above Nora did it.

And George, at George didn't take it anywhere.

And like, why didn't he take it anywhere?

Because you can do DNA test on a fetus.

It could be the pregnancy and the baby

or it could just be like, in community dead girl.

Right.

Like, we don't have time to solve this Jane Doe.

There's a million of them.

But no, I don't know.

I don't know.

We don't have time to say,

we don't want to connect this Jane Doe

to the circumstances of her death, whatever they were.

Right.

Do you know what I mean?

Right.

So it could be either.

There's the pregnancy through me off

because I was like, oh, who's the father?

And that will come out.

You know, like, you solve this crime

and you, they'll be like, who's the father?

And be like, oh, it's an 85 year old billionaire

or whatever or his son or someone else

that should not be the father of a 15 year old child,

which is nobody.

Campbell's got.

Rob Delaney.

Some bad dude.

Some bad dude.

What I think is interesting.

So this is based on an 80s film Black Widow,

loosely based.

And I was like, looking at the plot of that,

movie.

And in that movie, the killer, the, you know,

the woman who disguises herself with wigs

and accents and all this sort of stuff

to meet and murder rich dudes,

she's just doing that to get their money.

Like, that's the motivation

and she's being chased by a female cop.

But like, that's her motivation.

Her motivation is, I want this money.

So I'm going to.

Right.

She's just a straight up, like, grifting criminal.

Grifting killer.

Who uses sexuality in order to entrap her.

Right.

And so the idea of like,

why do women kill?

Why do women murder?

Like, what is the motivation behind this

Catherine's killing spree?

And the fact that it is sort of like

the rot at the center of society

and the way in which women, young women, etc.

are just, again, Norris says this in the first episode.

Like, we, whoever the we are,

want women to be sort of like raped and killed and go

and just be quite and go away.

You know what I mean?

And like, that's what a lot of storytelling has been.

And it's sort of like, what if they become a Medusa

and said, would they become a Gorgon instead?

You know, like, what if there is like,

you know, I love all the Greek myth.

Oh, yeah.

When she's like, I like, because I'm very smart

and we do a really good school.

So that's why.

Yeah.

But yeah, so to alter the motivation

and give and give this much more interesting

and upsetting motivation for this character

is one of a million improvements

upon the loosely based source material

that they made here.

There is that part where Robby kind of like is like,

oh, well, isn't for the money, like in the very beginning.

You remember that?

Yeah.

And she's like, no.

Yeah.

He's like, really pushing it.

Yeah, you like, can't, you can't understand.

He's like, why would, why would a 15?

She's a prostitute.

She's like a 15 year old who is sex trafficked

is a prostitute.

Right.

I don't know if that's a blue color.

But it just has no, cannot differentiate between a victim

and, you know, it's like immediately

into the criminal bucket.

I'm really worried about Alden.

I feel very protective of him and I hope he's okay.

She does seem to genuinely care about him.

No, I think she cares about him,

but like, where does the rubber meet the road

in terms of like, if he finds out more than she wants him to know.

He was poking around a little.

He was like, you know, it's the same reason I was worried

for Rob Delaney's daughter, where I'm just sort of like,

I think her instinct is to not hurt this girl.

Yeah.

But when this girl is like, hey, what the fuck is going on

with all the electronics and the oven?

What's happening here?

I'm like, where is that line?

And I don't have a grasp of it.

To your point about like killing the woman

who worked in the sort of the women's shelter.

Yeah.

You know, that line is really fuzzy to me.

And so that puts me the viewer on the back foot

of just sort of like, what is the choice

is going to be made here?

I would like to believe that she genuinely care.

I believe she genuinely cares about Alden.

But does she care about him more than she cares

about her mission to like be able to successfully kill

all these people?

Yeah, I'm not sure.

It's a fact that I'm very fascinated

to see what happens in general to character

because she's already like, there's been like two allusions

for the fact that she does not care if she loves her dies.

Like, she flat out says it.

She flat out says it.

I mean, it's character.

Alice says it also.

She's like, this is a suicide mission.

Like, this is not, this is like, she is going towards death.

Like, she just wants to do her thing.

So here's my question at the end of the day.

Again, my morals might be really messed up

because I'm just like, kill all the bad men

and I'm fine with it.

But like, what do you want from the end of this show

is from the end of the season,

if this is like more than a season of television,

I don't know.

But like, do you want her,

does she get to survive the season?

Does she get to get away with what she did?

Do you want her in jail?

Do you have a sense of like,

where you feel like this character should

or where you personally, Yasi, want her to end up?

This is so dark.

But I kind of look at this character,

and I'm like, this character is dead already.

Like, she had no shot.

Like, I'm not sure I believe that there's

some like happy ending waiting out there for her

if she only can find love or whatever.

Like, her soul is corroded.

Her spirit is broken.

She is not a functioning person.

Like, she's, her eyes are crazy.

Like, she's watching these trauma healing

YouTubes while doing sex work.

Like, it's, this is like, the best I can hope for

is she goes to an institution

and has like a nice end of days.

Okay.

So that's what you want.

I don't know if that's what I want, but...

It's institutionalized.

Like, can you see that's a cool ending,

like just like, sitting with her stickers

in the institution.

A lot to be 15 till the day she dies.

I find that I don't know.

And I think that's a, again, it's like,

that's more interesting to me than the like,

unveiling, unraveling the mystery of the breadcrumbs

that leads back to J. Easton.

And you know, all of that sort of stuff is like,

I think you're, I think you're right.

I think it's an interesting question.

Like, can she be okay?

Does she deserve to be okay?

Do I want her to be okay?

I find that I am unsure.

And that puts me in a really interesting position

while I'm watching it.

You know?

Yeah.

So I wonder, I guess my last question for you is like,

how, and I guess you kind of just answered it,

but like, how interested are you or how much do you want

some sort of like twist to come out

involving the J. Easton of at all?

Like, you know, like, oh, the breadcrumbs lead back

in there's some like crazy twist

that we weren't didn't see coming.

Or is that just not personally?

But I wouldn't put it past a show in 2016 to do that.

But yeah, that he, that he's just a nice old man

with cancer and he never did anything wrong.

Hope Davis's character is the spengol,

she is the Heidi Flaiss of the entire organization

of teenagers.

Like, she didn't flinch.

Flynn Maxwell, you know what I mean?

Like, that's, that's, you know, they're basing it on something,

you know, she didn't like, as they point out,

she didn't flinch.

She knew her dad and her and her brother.

I mean, she's complicit in some, to some degree,

to what, to what degree who knows?

I don't know.

But like, you know, I think we're supposed to believe

the cops when they're like, she definitely knows, you know?

Yeah.

That's their read on it.

Campbell Scott, how many more episodes does he get to be

on the show?

Does he get to live?

Given the trend, yeah, maybe one.

Maybe one more.

Yeah, like he's already drugged.

Yeah.

So he's already got that fentanyl.

He's already got the fentanyl in him.

Yeah.

So, and he's an increasingly, in a precarious position,

because he's in the van.

He's in the van outside of Alden's house, right?

So it's like, he's got to be dealt with pretty quickly

because he will be discovered by her new boyfriend.

Well, that is furious.

Up through episode four, Ramahoney will be back

and we will do episode five, I believe, again,

unless Ramahoney comes back and he's like, I hate the show,

but I just don't believe this.

No, Ramahoney is how Shagalli, you know, he's gonna,

he's gonna love it.

Pressyachv is Spotify.com.

If you have any thoughts, if you're like Joanna,

why are you rooting for Murder?

Sorry.

And you can let me know.

Joanna, have you murdered anybody?

Not yet.

Great.

But I've been thinking about it.

You have a short list in case things turn for you.

Thank you to Kai Grady, thank you to Jacob Cordell

and we'll see you soon.

Bye.

Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods

who has your back to school eats sorted.

Wow, we're going back to score already.

They've got your fast and easy breakfast covered

with frozen waffles and pancakes.

Munch boxes are looking tasty with organic seedless grapes

and baby carrots and essentials like cheese sticks.

Then for dinner, you can build your own meal.

Choose from a variety of entrees like chicken,

scallop, and you can do sides and it's all good too.

Whole Foods is banned more than 300 food

degree in store wide.

Shop back to school must-tabs at Whole Foods Market

in store or online.