‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 8 Reactions | Talk the Thrones

Hello and welcome to Talk The Thrones. I am Chris Ryan. I am joined as always by Joanna Robinson and as well as a woman.

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Okay, fair warning.

I only watched this episode once.

Like most people, but Ormond won, right?

That's right. You're ready to go.

You're ready to pod live. James Arn, right now.

Three cap.

That Agon lives push notification to hit for Nero like a ton of bricks.

And she finally takes the safety off of Damon.

Doing so negates the purpose of having Missouri around.

Although she had served some purposes the previous week, you know what I'm saying?

Sorry, a bad lay. We got to ask.

We're all bad lays go off to Pentos.

Agon is reunited with his brother and that's some heartwarming stuff.

Basically, he turns Damon into his dragon bodyguard.

And Alice is not happy about that.

We learn a little bit about Alice.

We sure know.

And some of her concoctions and potions.

Bella and Adam are also not happy about the way Renira has been treating them basically as if they were dragon writing.

Writing Amazon delivery folks.

Their father Coralus is being held hostage by Orman, but little G Wayne and Darren try to parlay with him on the side.

All for not because the battle of Templeton begins.

Ulf nearly misses it with a hangover switches sides to the greens switches sides to team fuck you.

And then flies off as a solo act in the battle.

He loses cat or loses a fight with a one arm Northman and Damon gets saved by a pile of burning rubble and Coralus back in King's land in.

Renira has Alan kill a priest and come home to find another one of Alice and children are dead.

That keeps happening.

Renira gives the camera a real it is what it is look and closes the window on Elena and the season of the show.

So sort of a brief recap.

Boy, look at you.

Are you going to miss it?

You're going to be waiting two years.

Oh, I'm just podcasting about it with you guys.

I was curious what you thought of the finale.

That's a good way of talking about whether we'll miss it.

Sure.

What did you think of the finale, Joe?

I liked it.

I still oddly.

I'm getting nostalgic for the season two finale, which is something I didn't think I would feel.

But like there's a lot to talk about in this finale.

Yes.

But I don't know that it went like the highs were not as high for me as a season two finale, even though the season two finale left a lot of us going like, what's happening next, you know.

It certainly feels like a finale that is an active conversation with season two and unquestionably a response, right?

I mean, I think the people felt like the season two finale was basically a trailer for season three, two muted not enough happened.

That I, no matter whether you loved this finale and thought it was incredible or it didn't work for you, you can't say it was boring.

This finale to me is like a cocaine fueled three-some after a toga party in the bed of a pickup truck when it's raining.

Tell us a moment.

Tell us when you experience that.

There was no cocaine.

There are definitely a few moments and a few character beats and scenes where it's like, who did what now?

Right.

Yeah.

But it's memorable and you can't deny it's memorable.

I found this to be very entertaining and overall I found it to be propulsive and engaging.

There are a couple character decisions that I'll need you guys to help me work through and I'll need to sit with for a bit.

But the action was pretty gripping and it felt like something the show needed to deliver.

We're always monitoring the tip into just style over substance.

I don't think this finale tipped in that respect.

When you say style over substance, you mean action over character.

Yeah.

And I think something that we had talked our initial reaction to the episode, we sort of shared this reaction which was like, a lot of it was writing on this character, Rodi the Ruin, the head of the Winter Wolves, the Stark.

There's a key figure inside of this episode in a way that I don't know that the season did a lot of build up for.

Yeah, he was the guy standing next to the teenage dude who killed Kristen.

Right. That's all he was all season and then he was such like a key player here at the end.

And so, you know, what they did all season to build up Darren and Orman and Gwayne and that aspect of Tumble 10, I think they really nailed.

But then the other parts of it, I think, left something to be desired.

Yeah, I thought that the action was done very well.

Yeah.

I thought that given what they were doing with like thousands of either real or computer generated people and dragons and a town being burned to a crisp and all these like individual characters that were trying to track within all of this chaos.

Yes.

People not being ornamentally dressed that much differently from one another.

So you're kind of like, okay, that's a good guy.

Bad guy or depends on your, you know, whether you think green, black, what who's good and bad.

I mean, you're a team green to be clear.

So it was a tough day for me.

But you love putting children on the front line of battles.

It's just a, it's just a move.

You know what I mean?

The other aspect that I thought that if I was going to give a note, I kind of wish more characters in this episode got the Allison treatment, which is.

Oh, interesting.

Didn't really appear until like a Coda last minute realizing somewhere cosmically that her daughter had passed.

But otherwise like it was sort of agreed upon like Allison didn't really have a lot to contribute this episode.

So we're not going to have a customary check in with her on the road out of her in hall.

Yeah.

You know, and there were a few characters that I kind of feel like maybe we could have saved that for season four.

Like, give me an example.

Yeah.

Bala, like, you know, that was like a really quick check in with Bala.

And it's not like it slowed the episode down.

Yeah.

But I was like, on the other hand, I hear what you're saying on the other hand.

I think the fact that Ranera gets like red to filth by both Bala and Helena and also Missouri.

Like the fact that these younger women are like hashtag not my monarch.

Yeah.

Like I don't think so.

So I think that thematically is resbredations.

And the idea that like a stranger who Ranera never worked to truly entrust an agenda to her cause like all the tracer but also an actual literal family member.

Like Bala is like, I'm going to tell you and Helena Helena of course.

I'm going to just skatingly lay into you about how truly lost you are.

I think not only does that help to cement the number of people in the number of forms that Ranera has lost.

This is a crossing of the Rubicon episode for Ranera.

Sure.

I have still some notes on just tweeting out the prophecy.

I remain a little bit baffled by that and I it's working through it.

However, I think this was an undeniably effective episode and season overall for showing us that Ranera,

you know, you said tough episode for you as a member of team team green.

Is it?

It's a tough or episode.

I think for people who have been rooting for Ranera and team black.

Sure.

Yeah.

Murdering the high septent.

Even just the grabbing of Baylor's face, the physical violence.

Air Force Femalina.

Both Damon and Ranera doing a lot of face grubbing.

Yeah.

And a lot of child murder on Tumbleton, Roddy the Ruin just like boom, acts to the face to the kid who tapped his calf.

Damon's like, get out of the way kids.

Get out of the way.

And you two are going to stay.

Trick or it's a they like hustle up the last second, but he was willing to do it.

He said a low horse.

Do you think the villain turns?

Do you think he missed those kids?

Because I'm not sure he did.

They definitely were.

They ran.

They ran.

Whether they were still embroiled in flame and brutally murdered, it's entirely.

I mean, my question about the kids is like Damon has this real moment inside that this real sort of like what half we brought.

Like inside of this battle moment.

Which is surprising because Damon has seen so much battle.

So what was it about this battle that made him feel that way?

I'm the only answer I could come up with was the small children involved, I guess.

I was actually I thought maybe it had something to do with being on the wrong side of dragons.

You know what I mean?

Like for like it's like this is what dragons of war really feels like in an enclosed area.

Yeah, it's interesting that the perspective and point of view we've gotten before of like what is.

Putting aside something like the bells and game of thrones just inside of house of the dragon like rooks rest Christen because we even got the cut to black and then Damon's fog of war.

So Christen a non rider to your point Chris as the one who was like oh my god and men are like you know, dust beneath their feet.

I thought I was I agree the Damon read there was complex.

I think there are a lot of different things we can identify in it.

I think one of it is even an experienced veteran of dragon war like Damon is like the decimation shell shot.

Of the dance of the dragons where this is an unceasing on her lending assault and this is not the last time something like this is going to happen.

I think there's also the fact that Damon and Ranera gives herself over to this in full in this episode.

Has been the leading voice all.

That this is what we should burn them on and then he has to stand there and look as the women and the children are holding their severed limbs and their charred bodies of loved ones.

I think there's a combination to have like the actual horror and guilt and a little bit of the.

No, he hasn't witnessed Ranera in her full new garb can't wait to talk about drip queen.

I have some moral notes, but it was high.

Yeah.

She was like don't make a monster of me in a very sexy, flirty moment, which was interesting in terms of how these characters pair sexuality and violence.

She said it like she was also like bring me their heads kind of for sure.

Definitely.

And then he makes the kind of show of saying to his army.

The round was watching like let's keep the queen's reputation in mind.

I think there's a little bit of well, fuck that's done like there's no more PR spin you can put on this tumble tin his ashes because of sure sure, but you were a part of this black alley.

That's that being like sounds for spring exactly the culpability of it all I think is at play.

I just think it's like an interesting time for David Targaryen to grow a conscience.

And then he charges forward and continues the battle too.

Yeah.

So like the question maybe that's even more depressing is it's like is it too late to grow a conscience or if you have a moment where your conscience breaks through.

Yeah.

Then you plow ahead anyway like how fucked are all of us really.

Well, that's kind of what happens to Ranera at the end of the episode as well.

We're going to talk about this episode I think from the perspective of characters. I think that's probably the most useless way you slow.

A way to good do it.

Even yourself CR.

We can start with Ranera.

Yeah, who freaks out a little bit of the beginning of the episode and then.

Stoically closes the window on her old self following Helena's death.

I liked the fact that this episode had a few ambiguous moments.

I would imagine some of them maybe annoyed you because for sake of clarity.

But there were a couple of moments like for instance or a while's look while Ranera is publicly doing her like I have a very important press conference at APM everybody tuned in.

I thought that was really cool.

I thought Ranera's reaction to the needle point was interesting as was the needle point itself and what it attend.

So let's start with the prophecy.

Okay.

Just because you want to watch the smoke come out of Malar's ears.

This is not this is not done in the books. I take it.

No, no.

So I liked almost every Ranera scene in this episode.

Yeah, genuinely.

I thought that Ranera's like if we want to start with the positive and come back to the prophecy.

The reaction to Egon and Sunfire and that news just what opens the episode.

This was such I would say overall across character sets.

A real reap what you sow episode right.

So Ranera, accepted by Allison has put this lie out into the world that egg on a stat knowing that he's not now they all did things on fire was dead right.

Inceptive is like two mile the word to use valesons like here's the party line uses it.

And if they have to body will just show them a bag of phones right like yeah.

You know it's just it's still working.

That's one of mine.

That life does die in this episode.

Exactly.

The fact that that backfires and that specifically the idea that Ranera has been touting a dragon appeared to me Adam and see smoke in my moment of need is now a chip that the other side can use a dragon rose Sunfire rose and Ranera has to contend with that and work so hard to pull back belief and support was a fascinating place to find the character and I I loved that.

I don't know that any and I think it's shocking to see what happens in the high set with the with the high set and I'm excited to talk about that I don't quite understand Alan's contribution there eager to hear your thoughts.

Ranera just saying the prophecy out loud it's not in the history books the show has made a choice that that that's okay.

And we just say we we even interview with Ryan Connell is running tomorrow and we did ask about this we didn't get we can get condolences taken this for sure in house of our.

So it was puzzled as you know by the mention in the small council meeting that's like on steroids now after just addressing all of the small folk of Kings landing.

I think thematically inside of the show where omens and portents and chosen one sanctioned by the gods is so central to what all of the characters are doing particularly Ranera.

It is credible to me that Ranera would say I am Ranera the chosen right that this like Ranera the cruel PR act from the greens out in the field is something that she needs to come back by saying you think you see a sign there.

I'm going to tell you with proof to her no one else has to prove that this is an inherited status that this is real I understand inside the show why the character does that I have a hard time like understanding how then it's not mentioned in fire blood that she did this given the number of like this person took a shit in this place stuff that is chronicled but that's where we are I do think in terms of performers inside of the show amadarcy like that they are one of the like the strongest thing.

They are unbelievable they are like incredible and the way in which this opened with tears vulnerability and then how that's you know heartens into steel and resolve and that scene the way that scene was shot between Ranera and Damon when as you said she took the safety off and said you know go forth and kill and the smirk on Matt Smith space where Damon's like finally I get to do what I've been begging to do and he's like I've got her like I've been on I've been in a battle with Missaria for Ranera all season.

And I won. She's like fuck this area. Yes. Missaria off to Pentos. That's it. And it's it's Damon time now. So I thought that the speech made sense for the character if not for the grander story of game.

Exactly. So Damon is the warrior and Missaria is the politician and Ranera just believes in herself. Like Ranera is like central preoccupation is this prophecy in this myth about herself that she is like a

two-pot committed to this to back off of it in any way well she has to because yeah to you like they don't need to worry like I don't need to worry about taxes I don't worry about wheat I don't worry about worry about orman I want to worry about what my dad told me was coming and why it's important that I stand in between it.

And I think that's she's like why is this a secret why can't you know what I mean like she's like telling her son or son's just like cool.

Oh my god. And like Joffrey woke up and it was a tough day to wake up.

Yeah. And she's walking around and she's like why do I have to keep making these kind of.

Contestions or like take him as a vice vice or Damon's advice like the only advice that people should take is that you take my word for what's coming and that I'm the one who's

prophesized to stop it. Yeah. And how do you think the crowd really felt about that? I think they were like what the fuck.

What the fuck.

What are we doing? I think they were like this doesn't feel sane to me.

What is happening here like Mad like mayor the cruel is is sort of invoked throughout this especially the way she's murdering septons and

exactly look to.

They I don't know that's her own we have to make our own screen. I'd say some of the illustrations and some of the text.

There is a little bit of a comp there but certainly the fact that we have Reneira has the the armor like in the the drag and wings the male right.

The if we think about the third episode of the season that we all loved so much that scene that conversation before Harry petitions of like everything I put on sense of

signal. Should I wear jewelry no right. Oh the chain. Okay the sword no. So this is all deliberate.

I like caring about stabbing into the dress and stuff like that. So leaning into the masculine. You know they they want they're so excited.

I'm not going to be the king. I'll give them a king like I will be the prince that was promised is is is what you said.

Yeah the eye makeup look to me like I love that there's awesome incredible stuff certainly one member of this podcast could pull it off.

Big fan surprise you didn't try it tonight. There's still time really cool because it was like almost like drag a slits.

Beaking mayor's car. But like I fake tears almost like blood.

The more you know by the throne the more helpful it is to just straw red gashes on yourself.

Pramptive cover but I thought it looked like a little bit of like a dragon slit I too you know be the dragon.

The like the seris is crown in an episode where she is saying and we built toward this in the penultimate but the seris is philosophy not for me.

The crown I still have to hold as a symbol of legitimate inheritance so this you know this path toward trying to point toward all the aspects of legitimacy.

I asked this on the deep dive last week but on the one hand I find it kind of heartening that we're near is like I'm done with saying I have to constantly worry about how my dad would have done this because it's in part his fault that they're in this fucking shit.

And hearing her say that was so gratifying to me personally but then like Chris to go back to what you were saying about how is we're near reviewing the reality of the job versus her own image versus kind of the task and burden of the prophecy.

It's I don't know you can make the case she just went from saying the seris just saying okay Damon's philosophy and like casting Miss area side as you know it's so the question is like does Renira even have a chance is there a path to saying.

What what do I believe like what's my philosophy is there room for that with all of these levers and forces and horrible things inside of this stage of the dance of the dance.

And then this locks back in and finds Helena's obviously done what she's done yeah does Renira know that all turned and tumble to the loss.

I don't know you would have a window that no that'll be a season for another bad email for a minute.

Let's talk about Helena's death briefly that's a character who I think grew a lot this season and I thought was performed very well.

And especially when you consider like what is her story is not really allowed to leave one room yeah.

I thought it was operatically staged and well done what what did you make I guess of her choice but also Renira's reaction to it.

This is my hair part I mean not I'm RIP Helena I'm not delighted that she's dead but I think this the way they laid this out over the season those of us who read the books sort of knew we were headed here and I think they did a really good job of carving out time for Helena and Helena's descent so that we could really feel the impact of it here.

I like that we didn't see the fall or the jump or anything like that we saw you know her her body after the fact we just saw the empty window we saw the the needle points are trailing out the window I thought all that was really good I think seen the neat like her stitching her own death inside of the needle point I think that is like beautiful and tragic of course and then.

And working on that for a while for a long time like knowing that it was coming and like the image of Renira and and we can all debate exactly what's going on there again we talked to God all about this but that image of Renira and the way in which she to my view sort of looks at it season unflattering depiction of herself you know.

Stitched by a person that she believes can see the future she believes in her being a dreamer and just decides to put it down and close the window and walk away and just say I refuse to engage with this I am so far down my rebranding my new I make up my armor me making unhinge speeches in in the streets that I can't engage with this at all I can't put the brakes on you know that's what it felt like to me definitely and I like the way that that.

Evolution we often talk about is like a positive right and we'll get to that soon with some butterfly talk but.

The evolution change in any form you're not always like walking forward and so the idea that across different choices that thing that Joe outlined is present for Renira the like I saw council I got impatient when I asked my advisors for advice and they were like I have nothing to say useless.

In in the in the set with the high septent like that warning from earlier in the season.

If you declare war on the faith it's going to be a problem in the realm there's not only like a character inside of the season saying that there's historic precedent Renira has decided to do this anyway to ignore it last episode just last episode Renira was seeking out my God I do want to look into the future I do want to know but I want to hear.

That I was chosen something that affirms me in my exactly so as soon as you're not getting that affirmation all you can do if you're Renira this is what Renira has decided all she can do is decide not to care to not look.

I am going to say that you are right because you know more about this than I do I watched it and thought she got what she wanted.

She saw an image of herself on the throne okay that she can interpret in a way yeah yeah and she had been asking Helena like what do you see what do you see and this is what she sees it's not a lay like is she predicting her own future but she's predicting some kind of future for Renira now in the details of the image there are probably a lot of like little yeah like wrinkles in terms of what that blood coming out of it means and like hands and fire.

Yeah but this was this was ultimately I thought like an affirmation of what Renira thinks about herself and she closes the window being like what it's what's done is done.

I think that's a completely valid interpretation this is part of why it's fun to be able to debate something like this like I think that the idea that she is that I would say I don't think that is based on what Helena says to Renira in the

favorite and incredible everything that you care about is ugly you are ugly I don't think that that is what Helena is stitching like any sort of validation is what Helena is stitching into the

tapestry I think you are right that Renira might be so far gone at this point that that is how she chooses to interpret it and I love that that framing Chris I think that the what's in the foreground and where all the details is like again kind of a

throughline here what is the character choosing to look at and care about right and that tells us a lot about where they are is when you're just saying the throne I'm on it or is she and I have a sword in my hand I am

exhibiting strength the strength that everyone told me I needed or is she like fuck there's a lot of blood running down all of the appendages of my body into the roots of the ground and fabric itself and

fire people dying and dragon streaming little bit different tone but a little bit of the dragon orgy tapestry vibe with like the human hands and the dragon

clause kind of who knows what they're up to behind there but certainly in an episode where once again the doom of Valeria was invoked multiple times

Renira once again choosing to spin the doom as a positive by saying my family was chosen the dream like we escaped the doom just us among the

dragon riders Damon part of his big like pep talk is a new Valeria once again like cast aside Viserys his philosophy but maybe hold on to the

harbinger of doom regarding the doom itself that's not what either Renira or Damon does in this episode so if you're looking at that you're seeing maybe the

imagery of the dance of the dragons but also what is the dance of the dragons what have we been hearing since the first episode of this series the threat of Valeria reborn the doom the

cataclysm brought into westeros because of the cost of the strike and war on the characters and what they're doing can I tell you something about the Helena death that I as a book reader I really enjoy because

there's all this ambiguity about you know Helena goes out the window and there's all this ambiguity about what happened was she push all the sort of stuff like that did

massaria do something and I really like that inside this episode you know when massaria is walking out and Helena is walking in

massaria does say something to her that some people could interpret as being the reason she jumps does she do it with the intention of making her jump no

like she's never she says you're she's never gonna let you go right and is that the reason is that was that the decisive thing and the

reason why Helena decided you know I'm gonna make this needle point come true and jump out the window but you know so you could say

massaria is the reason she jumped out the window but either way it happened while Alison was gone

Alice the one thing Alison cared about all season was keeping Helena safe and while she was gone and Renira said I'll watch over her

what kind of monster do you think I have the one thing she cared about went out the window is she gonna think that that

Renira cost her out the window she might you know it will see what how Alison reacts but like this butterfly moment is interesting

I united Damon and Coralus in my character list for a specific reason just because they meet on the battlefield such as it is at the end of the

episode and I thought it was a cool moment because I think I recognize the two of them sharing a lot more in common than maybe

I had maybe I had not paired the two of them together throughout this show until this moment the second sense of

Western yeah and it's been a minute yeah I you know I go back to Ormond kind of just be like I love

Coralus is a good dude you know what I mean like like everybody kind of like respects Ormond Coralus I thought the

moment when Gwynne is trying to parlay with Damon and Sufer terms and Coralus cuts in with like an even healthier

compromise that sounds incredibly reasonable if unlikely to be a good guy.

Hi towers it doesn't sure but or the Tyrells by the way but it's like if you just he's like the idea that one

King has to rule this incredibly diverse incredibly complicated historically volatile area is sort of stupid you know like

let's break it up there were seven kingdoms let's how about we just have some regions and some are you pro

Calex it like California should exit no I just thought that like that was you know of course the first time

there's ever a good idea on the second season a third season of the show it like a so like it's

town gets burned you know to send her right after it. Something I love on Coralus's front this

this episode is when he's like hey Damon we're leaving yeah Coralus who has sort of walked away

from his role and I think right now is right when she's like Coralus put himself out here vulnerable

in the field to get napped I think she's right about that one but the fact that like you know

Damien was like Coralus you're you're you're going to keep you manacoles you're essentially my

prisoner now and Coralus is like guess what we're leaving I thought that was a really good moment.

I I love to that as well even just like Ali and Oscar and the background and the idea that we

didn't witness any sort of exchange between Coralus and them but you understand that they were willing

to kind of follow his lead in that moment because he is he's Coralus Florian like he's one of the

most fabled figures in the realm that was great I thought that Damon just you know again they're

all in at this point like the chips are on the table but out of hand rejecting not only Coralus is

kind of real-time updated pitch but didn't consider for a second anything that Gauin came to him

with and like Gauin went and opened with a plan that obviously Damon was never going to accept

fun that he got like an allocent book pitch split up the kingdoms and that went to Gauin here

but the fact that Damon just kind of is like what do you think I want yeah I want all the dead

high towers right and it's not even like attempting to hide the fact when Coralus challenges him

on that front like there's a path here and it's to peace now one of the throughlines across the

seasons has been Sinby gets in and like this question of is it too late and plenty of the characters

and maybe plenty of the viewers would say it is too late and Damon doesn't have his ability into

what is happening in Kings Landing where I think we could say definitively it is too late like

Renera just sort of the high septin killed in the sap and then made this address yes but

there's no part of Damon that is open to that appeal yeah even when Coralus a trusted

member of their alliance for all of this time says to him what if everybody like when he says

that to him and when he when he's like Damon Damon we're leaving Damon surveyed this wreckage

that the dragons have left behind and that this battle has left behind and his solution or his

response to it is to start killing everybody he sees in front of him and that's where Coralus

finds him and Coralus's idea is like it's going to happen yeah and now Damon you have to remember is

the guy who is like we're not stopping at tumble tin or the west or he's like I want to go back

across the sword like a darn darn yeah I want all this stuff and it's like this guy only really has

one direction right like and only really has one speed and you can you he could be a useful

battering ram as he is when Coralus he goes through the door I really got that was very sick but

like he's not a politician and he's not a negotiator and I just thought it was just a cool like kind

of Yin Yang moment in the episode I really grew with you but my I guess my question is are we meant

to see what Damon goes through in this episode and think he's going to have a different attitude

next time this conversation comes up given what he saw here will tumble tin be his sort of like

numb moment or something like yeah I just think that everything else that goes wrong for everybody

in this episode negates any lessons learned yeah he also was getting his ass actually handed to him by

Bull John Rockston let's just say it yeah let's just say it Damon is one of my favorite warriors in

the entire canon but Bull John was fucking people handling him people are gonna have some questions about

that I think Mallorna I did have a moment because when when John goes for his eye yeah Mallorna

both had a moment where they're like are they gonna go all the way into this like Amon Damon two

sides of the same coin thing and like take Damon's eye in this episode I thought I thought the

sapphire let's give Damon a Ruby Ruby yeah this episode is brought to you by White Claw grab life

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responsibly white claw seltzer works Chicago Illinois um kind of rounding out the tumble tin side of

things okay I have orman to his dead and I I feel very confident that we really got a

beat oh yeah that's the kind of speed dead or I mean he got first of all stabbed up the ass we

also know that if by if there is a heart beating inside of him he doesn't want it to be yeah he's like

I he's not smell he's dead I've smelled so many bad things today uh yeah that's what Chris is

saying before we start recording he's like that's the kind of dead body evidence I need to believe

a carousel yeah um which did you like better him finding all from the privy as a payoff for the

this is like disgusting and I can't handle it or the blind right the blind is several arm blunts

hurting into us mouth with the chip deep like what did he say like that's a good northern

fucking or something like that northern proper proper fucking from the north big bad of the season

and in so much as he is that he did his job uh he put in a good shift James Norton was great uh

10-10 honestly really I think maybe was broadcasting his imminent demise a little hardcore in the last

couple of episodes like I didn't see a future for him for say we were wondering a little bit

yeah it was just so good that we were like maybe they'll just keep it around I mean

orman does canotically die at tumble tin but we thought maybe James Orton was so good that he

would stick around but no I I will miss this performance which I thought was absolutely wonderful

and entertaining and definitely needed in the show yeah no question and all of the orman

Darren Goyne scenes were great all of them and they really I think that and Helena were the two

areas and which they really nailed it yeah really great even like the little because a lot a lot of

ormans work in this episode is to be like a complete lunatic you know walking around running around

tumble tin shouting for all the moment where like when they're bringing the human child

chill child shields up to the badminton like a town's person who clearly reeks gets too close to him

and he's like get away from me like a lot he's like doing a lot of really elevated height and

stuff in this episode but even still we got these beats like when he knighted Darren and Darren and

Goyne are like what can you like sub in I'd rather this be you you know exchange you looks at each other

there was from a very fucked up abusive manipulative character a look of I thought genuine like

pride when he knighted Darren and then the look of abject shock and betrayal when he found out that

Goyne and Darren had presented peace terms and gone behind his back like little moments like that

what James Norton was conveying with his face so good he conveyed some other things with his face

he sure shucks up his ass and a dragon really good I thought the the fact that Orman so all

season long we talked about Ormond as this like superior strategist right a tactician who was

thinking ahead even to the point where some of his closest allies going and Darren like what's

the sky up to what's the piece on the board he so far had that the people who's working with Don't

even know the fact that Ormond then is undone by making the exact same mistake the exact same

mistake the Damon and Renier make which is treating all like shit thinking that he had won him

because all for like he he knew that he was saying I'm gonna give you a castle I'm gonna give

you a I'm gonna give you the things you want because they won't and he just like lost his

shit and lost his patience and he think he off in the street he seemed him just like Damon did

of course yes obviously do you think he could have kept his stuff together if there hadn't been

like an outhouse moment right do you think like if it hadn't smelled so horrible I think I

think I'm gonna have been hung over yeah I actively hammered I think yes going into the

Templeton kitchens to like be like David Targaryen is a bitch yeah yeah let's do let's do oh my

god and I will pair him with you here right mm hmm she's like please don't involve me in this

all of the trail is something of a double betrayal sure I I think I was under the impression that

this was going to be a I you know that first swooping move back towards the the troops

align with the blacks and burning them up I was like okay and then he does a big you turn he's like

fuck all of you actually fuck all of you which would obviously signal that he is comfortable

as an independent operator I don't know the two guys from the tavern were with him when they cut up

the dragon valet tendon yeah um is that like a sleep it off and be like uh oh what did I do is that

I mean I don't know how much we can go into it without book spoilers right in terms of like

uh trajectory trajectory from here I this is a this is an update from the book and in the book he

just betrays the blacks but for him to sort of burn bridges and corpses on both sides is a really

interesting place to find him and uh he's involvement here is also a change from the books and

is kind of interesting but RIP cat I didn't think you were gonna make it and you didn't that was

one of the other moments of ambiguity or at least moments that I enjoyed in this episode was

Damon seeing you yeah and whether that's just Damon being like oh shit he's really not on his

dragon where he's supposed to be or him being like oh this guy has there's more to this guy I didn't

really think about like yeah oh because when when he arrives on Verma Thor Damon's like uh

Verma Thor is supposed to be in King's Landing like he was assigned to be there now the fact that

Damon and Ranera Ranera who in this season has a scene with Hugh like we're not oh what do they know

she and Hugh have a conversation about how his wife is in tumultant right he's like send me because

I won't get tired of watching so this is known fact that it doesn't like a curto them that he might

not want to just stamp pat on guard duty in King's Landing while the city the town that his wife is

in is being attacked by their army is the kind of hubris that continues to manifest for them in

many forms now again Ormond has his version of that those parallels for character who like

positions himself as superior to also just like why's until it smelled bad you know I mean you're

right his grip on branding a rye's or dare in the daring to get another nighting inside of the

season another sham of of a nighting ceremony for him to say I've made you king but now Neil and

take this bow of how you're going to serve me uh Ormond was was pretty fantastic really great really

great so like and then when he sees him running through the the town calling Katz name I think he's like

oh shit like oh my god and that'll have to be something that they think about moving forward

all I mean the team for all of his like team off right all of the dragon Lord the way that he's

styling himself throughout the episode great helmet I was it yeah I loved it was it

cemented but you know he's really going for it and you can really only ever say that about all I

mean he couldn't wait to embarrass Damon and Renera by talking shit about them he genuinely just like

fell asleep taking a dump it there's a long like it's a crowded field of famous ship moments and

game of thrones you know where this is ranked it's not gonna it's not tywin tear him does it pass

diarrhea dunk it's something for us to think about over the next few days incredible place for him

to be found truly what I will be thinking about over the next few days I'm gonna noodle on in a bit I

I know you will be returning to that in the deep dive full power and get coming you know no Ormond

recruited him he quoted him he wooed him what ever made him think that he could do exactly the

thing to all I'm gonna just tell you your tool I'm gonna tell you you have no worth I'm gonna

shout it in front of everyone and that that would be okay yeah like what why because he was impaired

by the stench of the house I mean it really it's a kids and Achilles heel really it really paid off

the little details of what Ulf and Hugh were charged to do yeah very interesting to me at least

in terms of like watching Dragon Warfare play out in the show because sit by the town with your

dragon and just watch as a deterrent but like even if Hugh had been sent by Ranera like oh you have

a personal vested interest in what's happening in Tumbleton so you go with Damon and like

provide air cover whatever dragons aren't surgical like right Hugh's advantage of being a dragon

writer would not really have saved cat per se you and Torren and Sabah the Frey all agree and I think

that that is something that is kind of fascinating about watching this happen where it's like oh you

you you can have all these dragon plans but when you get to like I need to get a specific person

out of a town then we don't realize that's why he tried to just don't be in there and get her and

look out yeah but you don't want to go and this is why the bullshit far school never gonna work

for even a second even though we all diluted ourselves we being the members of team black and to

thinking that it could we'll just run him out house by house yeah we're just gonna go door to door

I find all 15,000 high-doubts soldiers and never have to use our imprecise weapon of mass destruction

dragon fire yes on the wall of small which was also like when Damon gets off of Caraxi's you know

to mean because he's like and now we bring the door and then he went back to the horse he tried

let's talk about other dragon riders uh Aegan and Aegan and Amon in his scene that felt

new to me like my life I mean Tom Glinkarty's delivery of that line is like one of the best things

that's possible why yeah it felt a little odd uh it was awesome but it felt a little odd but like

him just being like and here I am in Harren Hall nobody heard me fly up here nobody heard me like

kind of I think he did okay right that's why Amon goes out there woken by dragowings and maybe first

that was a cigar yeah like fuck it's on fire I don't know it's my I thought it was a

longer dead for a second yeah well he wasn't fucking his mom so that was your first

son that's a good clue that's true but I guess I wanted to talk about well how did Aegan know where

Amon was it's just now everybody knows he's an Aaron alright it was I think it's been out and about

there okay they've kind of moved in and out because when when Aegan was trying to march out of

Rook's Rast he was like he's been cited and Vigars was cited when dish town so yeah right you know

Riverlands Gaza then Galicent is the one though aided by obviously Helena to tell

Vernier like no he actually is still at Harren Hall even though like other people maybe he's

slow for Hayden for the giant burn marks that Vigar left behind yeah I did leave who knows is

this his 20th stop hmm did he go to fair market did he go to Wendish Town or did he hit Harren Hall

first and he's just like really efficient do you think we were robbed of him checking it on the veil

and and what lady Jane Eyre would have found that was funny oh I would love to see those

don't have seen together obviously you know his way of forgiving his brother is to bring him into

indentured server two does like his security guard now well the way we're talking about it inside

the episode was that Amon has a choice here to choose between Alice and Aegan and and what will

like that this is presented as sort of a cliffhanger of the season is like what will Amon decide

I thought it was like you can die or you can work for me uh yeah but also his betrothes is scary

which so I don't know how this is not book stuff so I'm not sure if he does not met Alice

he was just like who's that your betrothes say what um I thought that this he doesn't know she's

an immortal way now she didn't get the incredible the in balance or the we got this was a good

example of a scene where I was like oh what when it started happening because this is not an

interaction the book and I was shocked though Joe and I have been talking in the in the spoiler

section on the deep dive about how like this real central focus for both of those characters

they're obsession with each other we were kind of like how are they going to pay this off

if there's not a scene coming between them yeah at the end of the season and then sure not

flowing behold there was I think the fact that in cotton this is something that we talked about

with Condole and the interview check it out um the fact that like

Egon's whereabouts we talked about this across the season with rook's rest that like we knew

Sunfire was there Sunfire rises and burns the mutants but like Egon being there was not a book thing

putting him in places where we didn't know he was there is enough just missing like where is

Egon in this stretch of the story to do stuff like this and have it feel credible I think I think

more importantly from like a TV story telling point of view and this is something that people

who work on the show been talking about for seasons it's like because of the truly you know very

brief way in which the story is told in fire and blood and because it can be dramatically

interesting in a book to be like a character has disappeared and then they reappear but if you've

got Matt Smith on your show you're gonna have to say uh he was at hair and all doing this this whole

season that's what he was doing what was Tom Glyncarnie do like Tom Glyncarnie could have been

absent this entire season a book readers would have been like yep yep but as as TV viewers who

have been like where's Egon and I think because they didn't make that choice as TV viewers now we're

sitting here saying is he the MVP of the season like he's in the at least in the running he would get

down valid votes like he was such a I thought compelling performer to know that he would be

betting favor I mean I think he's incredible I think I would say that he was the MVP of the

season him or orman maybe I don't know maybe Darren maybe going it's a shockingly a member of

team green I don't know how we want it's either orman or Darren for me for sure they're all wonderful

I'm having a harder time so Riley and I were talking about this uh please read Riley's

great coverage on the ring of calm water great website but Riley never talking about like I feel

like with Egon they leaned for me just a little too hard into what a piece of shit he was in season

one for me to like really enjoy this like he could have been like just like a shitty fuck boy in season

one but they're like sexual assault child fighting and I was just sort of like then it's like hard

for me to really enjoy this sort of like rise but we're gonna balance that out with a lot of child

murder and murder of men of the cloth from team black so the scales are over there I in addition to

that I think like one of the undeniable aspects of Egon the last couple episodes from his you know

mad king reaction to burning the mootens to the way that what he's saying the plan he lays out

it's he's certainly not being positioned as like a moral like a paradigm virtue compared to

rhanira we're in a place where all of these characters are monsters whether aamon chooses to go

with egon or chooses to stay with Alice or what I think just the fact that we watch him fall to his

knees and show remorse and we've talked about this with aamon the whole time the fact that like with

Luke he was able to express remorse but then just fell back into his bad habits and hideous ways

and harmful behavior it's like he's showing remorse here in a way that I buy

her in health airpia works will he stay in that place or will another pull prove superior I think

the fact that like even though we don't know what choice he's gonna make we still get another

daemon aamon comp is you know purposeful and and I think effective like in her and hall in the

great hall rhanira flew in and challenged daemon in the season two finale to like finally make his

decision and he pledged his field to her so to get a version of that without as much clarity from

aamon to with egg on here who was in fucking Alice at the time and here's your missed out

here's a I have a question for you as an as a non book creator this is all new to us but like

how did the Alice backstory moment work for you very cool yeah I mean it was it paid off the

what's up with Alice stuff for two seasons and galorancon's great I thought it explained

a little bit of her tortured nature when it comes to like her and hall wanting her and hall

but hating her and all this idea that this is what's keeping her alive but also her prison

thought it was just really well done and you know within the realm of like I got a little

board of like aamon's dreams and like the darkness of her and hall and what are you guys doing here

and I loved when Alice and came that they like just didn't know how to be the third person yeah

haha nice that is what she said I that um sorry I can't help that I can't help that I can't

literally get out of it I learned that I'm 10 years I can't remember what I was saying she's

cool yeah honestly it doesn't matter what you love that for her or I'm really sorry for her yeah

I did son terrible terrible to hear that um more of heightened samellisandra comp in terms of

just like the clarity of this long life the the question of magic and like the cost obviously

different circumstances and mous and melisandra is like pledged to a religious faction which is

different for Alice but I did like hearing her talk about and I mean obviously drastic tonal shift

here in an episode where Helena kills herself like hearing what Alice says here I wanted to go

with him with her son right that she tried to kill herself and couldn't and realized then that

the price she had to pay we always talk about this something we love to talk about like what is

the cost of price of magic I really like when stories show us that this is a horrific version

of it rising crazy when they don't yeah there should always be a cost for the matter that john's

no get back in the day um and also in terms of now some of the magic Alice is seeking now yeah what

do you guys read based on through the lens of this history does she want dragons of her own because

she wants vengeance against the Targaryens who burned her in horrors castle and killed her son

uh a strength to match their strengths or is it because she's seeking a way out and she thinks

based on this history that dragon flame is the only exit that's an interesting question I I don't

have a clue died that way yeah oh I think that's in the mix here based on what you're

trying to talk about I'm yeah to be a writer but I don't I feel like if she wanted to get torched by

a dragon she could have provoked you know correct season baby that's what yeah yeah like that

that could have happened I think it's I don't ever want to be that vulnerable again so I will

arm myself with my own army else so she's been putting a lot of work it's like bull d'orine like

you know she gets these prospects in her and home sometimes you win sometimes at least but she's

like sometimes you're in she's just like you know I'm just like it's a long season I got this guy

here he's he's dreaming I'm his mom I'm not his mom yeah and then I got my underwear

the cock let him go to the show yeah it's getting a little late uh let's run through a couple of

characters quickly Alan was the one who jumped out just because he jumped a sword into the high

priest of the seven uh does this track for you guys what we saw from Alan okay so here's my argument

for it yeah this question of legitimacy that like Coralus has been that his father is has basically made

the central preoccupation of his illegitimate children's life the idea that their queen is going

to do something that their father neglected to do which is give them the last name and you know

you know yeah he gets it just in a roundabout way by becoming this trusted when she when she says

you have the blood of Ovaluria and you that's her acknowledging to a certain degree you know

her just utilizing Damon language to sort of get him to do what she needs him to do um does

this track for the Alan we know from this show so far and our understanding of him from the book

I would say no but I do think it's a compelling storyline of Alan this quite stalwart um young man

to sort of dedicate himself to a monarch be sort of whispered in the year have his brother say like

hey man this is a dark path let's not do this and for Alan to to watch us watch her sort of corrupt

Alan yeah I think is very I think Alan also sees like he's like in touching distance I could be

with Bala hmm I could be Bala's gonna love this hand of the king I could be something like really

important in the court here yeah like I have a really good thing coming chance during where I was

at the beginning of season two or something like that and yes isn't an extreme expression of

that belief in Reneira or that that desire for legitimacy for sure but it's his choice and his

hand that does it yeah rather than waiting for his father or his yeah for sure to get like this

paper work signs that it's like you're you're you're cool now 100 percent on the other hand I do

always like to track like he who swings his sentence must swing this so who says his sentence

must swing this word and the fact that she she said early in the episode like you go handle

the tumbles and once you do I will kill Aegon personally when it comes to the septin she's like

Alan you do it and I don't know if that was just a test of his loyalty or whatever but just sort of like

yeah why don't you do it right or she's still squeamish from like that's the thing is like

executing a high tower auto when you're when you're squeamish in the thrones universe yeah for me

I would say let's not have our monarchs or our leaders kill people but like in the thrones universe

if you're if you say someone should die you should be the one to do it if you believe the Ned Starker

bit I think it's also with Alan first of all I thought just see in kind of inverting the positions

that Adam and Alan are in you know like if we think of the awkward dinner seen earlier in the season

the look on Alan's face when Adam was so like uh the almost like worshipful toward Reneira and he

had reasons right he's a dragon rider now and Alan was like what the fuck man to see that flip

to our Adam was like did you know this did you know that she has Bala confined and Alan who has

had this like romantic interlude with Bala that Adam would die for it's like I don't really give a

shit about that I'm focused on this other thing the once in future king once in future lord of the

tides language very interesting obviously I thought that the Valyria thought you're the blood of

Leria whisper from Reneira was very clarifying as well I think on the one hand keeping that where it

is right before the thrust of the sword makes sense because that's such a massive thing for Alan to do

on the other hand if that is something like that had happened before his scene with the valarian

soldiers or with Adam might have helped a little bit mostly I think it's interesting and effective

as a way in this series that constantly is reminding us of the corrosive effect of proximity to power

that that doesn't end at the monarch right Alan was like I'm not interested in like matters of the

court a handful of episodes ago and now look more importantly what was with the accent on that

valarian guy had some questions yeah Bala and Adam yeah what should what takeaways from from

this episode I didn't have like a huge rundown for them other than they're obviously buckling

under Reneira's I do think I think Bala's thesis statement of like you keep people around

you need them and as soon as you don't you have no use for them you know this is this is something

that Mal and I all of us have been talking about all season this sort of the mismanagement of your

people and and sort of like how a little kindness can go a long way um but for Bala to say that

right before Reneira just kicks Missoria out of the continent because she is no longer abused to her

but knows way too much yeah close by jump right off that wagon and no one fucking noticed

on the label Missoria never takes her ride oh over to Essos that she's supposed to take that's

just not something she likes to do as book readers we'll hint we'll talk about this in the books

below the section on the deep dive but this seems to be a very interesting breadcrumb trail for

yes which would be a it's getting the theory brain go yes we're watching her nearer yeah it's just

very very interesting strong theories about this I think on the Bala Adam front like the other

thing is just when we think about the dragon math which is so central in this episode many times

again it was like six dragon six dragons well Ulf is just team Ulf now he's not team black anymore

and Bala and Adam like they are but how do they feel about it how do they feel right now about

Reneira her cause they haven't even heard about what happened at tumultus so it's like

you have this arsenal but how is that going that's also what state is hue and after a holy

day if I had to make a prediction without being a book reader I would just imagine that non-targe

dragonwriters will be under incredible scrutiny by Reneira interesting

we have some questions from the audience I wanted to ask really quickly if you had something in

mind what was the season three highlight for you and what was one thing you might say you were

all disappointed by we can actually keep it to highlight let's leave with positivity I just think

the Darren stuff was done so so yeah Darren yeah Darren where is he yeah I don't know

um we're just like sorry and is that his dragon did not get to be deployed in this battle but um

yeah I uh I think that the Darren Orman and then eventually Gwain stuff was enormously like

every time they cut to tumultus and I wasn't like oh I was like oh I'm excited to go to tumultus

was not something I would have expected for the season despite my love for James Norton so I think

they smashed that I yeah I agree it's it's team green which is just man boy like Orman, Darren,

Gwain those were my favorite scenes I got in lyrus always a delight Thailand

Thailand looked great in the sweaty shirt those scenes were just so consistently good and entertaining

I did think that the bulk of the Reneira scenes the season were really gripping and mesmerizing

and Emma Darcy's performance from a story perspective but Emma Darcy's performances as we already

said today was just unbelievable um and so those were really compelling so I think if you did want to

hit a what didn't quite measure up it's kind of what we we opened with which is just

even more broadly than that this like cluster of characters who just didn't get enough screen time

for us to totally like black alley got aligned yeah and I should say sounds boring not killing

the women and children sounds boring the shot of her on horseback like firing arrows

incredible but like but yeah black alley uh australia and rata the ruin like if they had had two more

episodes I'd like to believe that they could have given us some like so they you know we know you

never fucked a bit like some sort of fireside chat on the campaign right now I really enjoyed

two two two parts of the season that really stood out to me one was the third episode which is

shot from lyrus bov I wish the show had done more of stuff like that I wish the show would dedicate

more episodes largely to a character doing stuff and moving and negotiating like a scene after

a scene after a scene with like cause and effect I also really loved the agon lyrus

tile and stuff yeah agon and lyrus especially because it felt like old school thrones to me where

these characters were out on the road changing over the course of a season I think if I had any

disappointment it would be there were a couple of kinds of conversation that I felt like happened

eleven times yes and I was like I got it like and like do this again when something has changed

yeah rather than like we're kind of reiterating like I don't like this well it's too bad you know

like yeah over and over that was what I bumped on so hard in episode six I do think seven and eight

pushed beyond that into more like forward momentum but I I felt that like three quarters of the

way through the season for sure um I think the other thing that the season nailed was the dragon

stuff it was fucking awesome like it was just amazing it's as good as you can make it yeah it's just

like this show as a story as a text would work no matter what but the show is a visual spectacle if

the dragon stuff isn't where it is uh it's like a calamity so I don't I don't know I mean I'm so

looking forward to that aspect of season four in addition to obviously being with all of our

problematic faves who keep doing terrible things to each other yeah HOTD season four right into

presidential election right show lives okay I have a couple questions from our watchers listeners um

and this actually hits a question I wanted to ask you guys what happened with the three dragons at

the end of the episode was anybody riding craxies in vermouth or so craxies is Damon vermouth or

would be Hugh right holding his so it's so it's craxies chasing silver wing and then vermouth

or flying in behind the two of them and a little plume of flame from craxies towards silver

yeah dragon's what's on vermouth or mine because vermouth or in silver wing are like a bonded

pair of life made it is that what they are a little head knows a couple weeks ago I didn't know

so do dragons have to mate to make eggs we're gonna send you some readings from septum

bar said they're gonna blow your but also some fan fang but isn't like like crock it's not like

crocodiles where they're just like whoops I dropped some eggs I don't dream fire I have some questions

about that I actually don't know the answer that oh man I'm thinking of dream of sweet dreamy dream

fire this episode and he's definitely not why we're the three dragons two which don't have riders

one was blown smoke at the other like what was happening there well I mean we're one episode

removed from all of the dragons attacking each other I'm at the carnage in the chaos so they're

gonna take action the question is are there riders guiding their action or are there instincts in

their own emotion guiding the action I would say in a tumble-ton battle sequence that I thought

was pretty great and cool that like seven second stretch of the dragons flying after each other

didn't necessarily clearly convey that but again we see caraxies blowing flame and we do

a group of doors like vermouth or I think that's what it's supposed to tell us is like silver wing

silver wing is where we're gonna help caraxies fucked up or protect soul size caraxies is like

you fucked up I gotta torture you what is vermouth we're gonna do indeed don't don't don't

bronze fury big kuhuna 216 asked for the crew who is your deon waiters season three oh man

question is it all I think it's rady rady yeah she had some more screen time but I really really

enjoyed his attitude about life yeah fucking wait you know what torn manderly oh that's a good

that's our those are both great picks Sabbath of fray like wishes that she were on nominee

but cats I missed the cats last few episodes um yeah torrents a good one I those are those are

good picks I think those are the two contenders uh it's jibba dragon mpp for the season mill oh oh

I think it has to be sunflower at the end of the day I have it's one of the most iconic moments in

the history of the is it last week yeah I thought so oh no I was asking like is it no like

I don't know I don't know I would go sheepstealer she be was great sunfire really landed a big hit

correct green fire yeah or sorry and I don't know the blue queen I I was expecting a little more

involvement from to say yeah that's true I gotta be honest I don't go just still chained in the

step Darren was trying to like great question great questions we'll talk about this I guess more

on the deep dive but I I will say guayne saying my boy to Darren really got me in this episode really

we should wrap it up there so you guys still have energy for Tuesday Tuesday's house of ours deep dive

into the season finale and Monday check out the right condolences yeah and Monday and you know

I'll talk about this on the watch thank you so much for listening or watching or both the season

we really appreciate it's always a fun show to do thanks to everybody worked on the show our june

in the whole crew squad squad a land car like like she's she's she's the crash in it thank you

to for your knowledge she's three man it's the two many years well you do we be back for season two

of a night of the seven kingdoms you ready to commit right now in the public record I'm not I

can't I mean I am but I like this is like the one free agency like I go in a year to your contract

with house of more we never know we'll see what the terms are you know you love that show you'll

be back talk to you guys soon take care bye

you

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