Never Trump, Still a Republican

Getting to a great idea is hard in college.

Nonsensical essays, cringe-inducing presentations,

and seemingly unsolvable problem sets.

But then, the first thought becomes a final thesis.

Jumbled slides transform into a polished keynote,

and that midterm assignment gets a lot less mid.

Because the road to great ideas is littered with bad ones.

You just have to keep going until something clicks.

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Find out more on apple.com slash college.

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What does it mean to continue identifying with the party

if it's moved beyond the recognition of what it's been

in the past, which is sort of to say,

are you hanging on to a party that isn't your party anymore?

That would be, you know, easy to say right now,

but parties sometimes return as well.

You see parties flirt with populism and then return.

And I'm hopeful that that's what you see now.

I'm Adam Harris.

This is Radio Atlantic.

And this week, a conversation with former Republican US

Senator and Ambassador Jeff Flake.

We talk about the state of the Republican party,

the Senate, and what it means to be principled in politics.

Flake is known for crossing party lines.

Most recently, he endorsed Georgia's Democratic Senator,

John Assoff in his reelection campaign against Mike Collins.

Of course, is the Trump endorsed Republican Congressman

from Georgia.

In announcing his endorsement,

Flake told the Atlanta Journal Constitution

that his decision boiled down to character,

saying, quote, characters more important.

I've been around long enough to know you'll disagree

on issues with people across the aisle

or sometimes in your party, but the more important thing

is character end quote.

In 2017, Flake delivered a fiery speech

where he announced that he would not run for another term

in office.

There are times when we must risk our careers

in favor of our principles.

Now is such a time.

He believed the shift in the Republican party was temporary.

He believed the fever would break.

But it's been almost a decade since that speech.

Does he still think that's possible?

Ambassador Flake joins me now to discuss.

Let's get to questions.

Ambassador, thank you for joining me.

Hey, thanks for having me on.

What do you are the characteristics of a moral candidate,

of a candidate with character?

Well, I want somebody who respects the institution

of the Senate.

And the Senate senators have always very

jealously guarded their prerogative

to push back against any president from their own party

or not.

That's just kind of been a hallmark of the Senate.

You have six year terms, you're in more independent.

You have more roles than the House does in terms

of advice and consent.

Then, too, I would fit in character as well.

I have a hard time with people who simply won't admit

the obvious when your president loses an election.

And you're afraid to tell him about it,

I think, because doesn't speak well for a character.

So, yeah, in this case, we have that problem as well.

Senator Ossof's opponent simply won't admit and claims

that President Trump won in Georgia and won the 2020 election.

That doesn't speak well for character.

Also, with character, it's realizing in the Senate, too,

with the special rules, the supermajority rules

of filibuster, that you're a legislator.

You work across the aisle.

And then I've seen Senator Ossof do that

on a number of occasions sponsoring legislation.

And then constituent service as well,

when I was in Bassett or in Turkey,

I got calls from John Ossof,

but I got to know him then

because he was advocating on behalf of some constituents.

So, anyway, I've been impressed with him.

I have to reference this speech from the Senate floor in 2017,

because it was such a succinct articulation

of democratic values and principles.

You argued in that speech that, quote,

anger and resentment is not a governing strategy.

And you took particular issue with your party's acquiescence

in that regard.

How has that dynamic changed at all in the year since

for better or worse?

Unfortunately, it hasn't gotten better in terms of my party

and our willingness to stand up

and actually govern, as I mentioned,

of where anger and grievance are not a governing philosophy,

but we've just fallen in and decided

that whatever the president wants,

whatever the party wants, that's where we are.

And that unfortunately has not changed much.

You see some people standing up

when they're not running for reelection anymore

or have been defeated in a primer,

but we need to send up more.

That's why I like divided government,

being a physical conservative,

I look back over the past few decades

and the only time we've really had good fiscal discipline

is when we've had divided government.

Republicans in particular act more responsible

and act more as physical conservatives

when sometimes we're in the minority.

Do you think there will be consequences

for the fact that things haven't gotten better?

Or do you think that there will be a migration away

from the GOP?

I do.

I do.

Donald Trump has let a charmed existence politically

and he seems to be given a pass

that others aren't given.

And if you look around, his imitators have not done well

in Georgia, they haven't.

And in Arizona, where I come from,

Arizona is a very red state.

We have more than 300,000 more Republicans registered

than Democrats, but we have a Democrat

in the governor's office, two Democratic senators,

Democrat, Secretary of State, and Democrat,

Attorney General, all the elected statewide offices

because we've had people try to imitate the president

and have him done well.

I do think that we're going to see a migration

and I've written about this away from the president

and his policies.

And one, the president has been able

to basically control any primary Republican primary

across the country, that's whining.

And if president leaves office or is in the last,

you know, two years of his term,

if his policies are really popular,

that still lends him power

that he wouldn't otherwise have as a lame duck.

But the president's policies have not done well

in particular, you know,

tariff policies, protections policies

have led to high inflation

and then also a couple down with a war

that's been not popular at all.

And so, yeah, I think you're seeing a migration now

that filing deadlines have passed, most primaries have passed

and we're into the general midterm general

and then beyond the midterms,

you'll really see that happening.

That should do you still identify as a Republican?

I do, I do.

I just re-doubkelken and I'm hoping

that party returns to its previous kind of tenants

of limited government economic freedom,

individual responsibility, strong America leadership were brought.

And I do think that we're going to see a return to that.

And I think you saw in the Senate,

for example, the other day of vote on Russian sanctions.

That is a bit of a proxy vote, support for Ukraine,

but also support for American leadership

and support for NATO

and support for kind of the old bicameral consensus

on foreign policy.

So I think you see an elected official

as a desire to go back to that,

but it's been very difficult

when the president has had such a hold on the party base.

What does it mean to continue identifying with the party

if it's moved beyond the recognition

of what it's been in the past?

Which is sort of to say, are you hanging on to a party

that isn't your party anymore?

That would be, you know, easy to say right now,

but I guess they party sometimes return as well.

You see parties flirt with populism and then return.

We're an unfamiliar territory right now.

And I think we're going to be migrating back

to more familiar ground.

And I do think that that's where the country really is.

You know, I think we're a center right country,

but the problem right now is, you know,

you only have a subset of a subset of a subset

that votes in Republican primaries.

You have a similar issue on the Democratic side,

not as pronounced perhaps,

but that just puts all the political incentives

to drive to the extremes.

But I don't think that's where the country is.

That's why one thing that really excites me

about people like John Assof is I think that they can move

the Democratic party more to its, more to the center.

And that would force Republicans

to then contest that ground as well.

As long as we have Democrats, you know,

all the energy on the on the far progressive side,

it allows Republicans to be extreme as well

and still be seen as less extreme, I guess.

Well, Genshin, I wanted to stick with that for a second

because you said there's this sort of like massive lane

in the middle that most people identify

as politically in the middle.

But Democratic voters in recent primaries

have shown that that's not exactly where they are either, right?

There's been this feeling that things are broken in part

because of some of the middle ground solutions, right?

They're a part of what has led us to this moment

where you see candidates like Abdul El Sayed

and Michigan winning the Democratic primaries.

So I guess what is success from the left wing

of the Democratic party tell us

about what Americans actually might want right now?

Okay.

Yeah, well, I think it just proves the point I made before

that when you're looking at primaries,

although there was increased turnout,

certainly in Michigan, it's still a subset of a subset

that are determining who the nominee is.

And I do think the Democrats in Michigan

would have been far better off by going to different direction.

I think they would have had that general election easily.

Now it will be more difficult, certainly.

But I do think, yeah, the same problem is on both sides.

I think without a polarizing figure like Donald Trump,

who has certainly controls primaries on the right

and causes Democrats to act in ways that they wouldn't otherwise.

I see people like Gavin Newsom using foul and crude language

just because the president does and he wants to match it.

And you see that phenomenon all over.

And it's not been good for politics.

I hope we can move away from it,

but that's going to require leadership.

That's why I particularly appreciate John Ossoff.

It's more serious candidate and doesn't kind of follow that.

After the break, Ambassador Flake

on how to bring decorum and decency back to American politics.

Getting to a great idea is hard in college.

Nonsensical essays, cringe-inducing presentations,

and seemingly unsolvable problem sets.

But then the first thought becomes a final thesis.

Jumbled slides transform into a polished keynote

and that midterm assignment gets a lot less mid

because the road to great ideas is littered with bad ones.

You just have to keep going until something clicks.

Great ideas start on Mac.

Find out more on apple.com slash college.

Collast it up with Crocs.

You know back to school is coming in fast.

So why wait to find your new faith footwear?

Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look.

Try it.

Style it.

Make it yours.

Because the right pair doesn't just show up.

It shows off.

First day fits, handled.

Walk out ready for whatever's next.

Visit your nearest Crocs store today.

Thinking about that speech from 2017

and where we've come since then, right?

It's been a decade.

Roughly a decade.

All three branches of government right now

have really abysmal approval ratings.

People's trust in institutions is flagging.

And you said that right, the spell will eventually break, right?

Once there's no longer a Trump,

we can return to ourselves once more.

It seems that you're still of that belief

that the fever is going to break.

What do you see that gives you that hope

that the fever is going to break?

Well, it's kind of one heck of a fever.

It's been a long time in coming.

Well, let me just say I was back in Washington

for Lindsey Graham's funeral last week.

And I came away from that, believing that, like I said,

that this fever will break.

One, I saw Democrats and Republicans.

Lindsey was an interesting figure.

But if nothing else, he certainly

had friends on the Democratic side.

I was with him on all those issues on immigration reform

in particular, a lot of foreign policy issues.

And you saw people from all political struts come out

and celebrate a man's life that way.

That made me feel good.

At the same time, you had senators Corny

and Tillus standing up.

I'll be there.

They're not staying in Washington after January.

But hey, they still something to actually stand up

for the president and see the Senate acting more

like the Senate again.

And I see John Thoe keeping his members at bay

who want to make institutional changes

like getting rid of the filibuster,

which would fundamentally change the Senate

into a more partisan body than it already is.

But I came away from this week, even more firmly believing

that this fever will break when you look around the country

as well.

I still think you see that phenomenon

that the president's imitators don't do as well as he does.

So I'm hopeful that fever will break.

But you've written, right, that we've seen folks in the past.

Lawmakers, the country, generally come together after death

or after a tragedy, two of which

you experience at the congressional baseball practice

as well as standing with representative Giffords

at the State of the Union.

But that quickly fades away.

And people sort of divide again.

Do you think that even if we do sort of heal

that there will be that division again?

Yeah, well, I think you've had a lot of people

who elected particularly in the last several cycles

who know, you know, haven't really been in Washington

when there's been so-called regular order

or what we're used to.

So it's going to be difficult.

You'll always have those voices.

And we have a media environment that's not going back

through the way it was before, where there are just

a few trusted sources of information.

It's more distributed that way.

So it's more difficult to go back to the way it was.

But that's why it's going to require real leadership.

And leadership is important.

We see that.

We've seen that because the man in the White House now,

he's certainly been effective in where he's wanted to go

and getting people on his side more out of fear of losing

primaries.

But by the same token, you're going to have leaders

that actually inspire people, you know,

better angels of our nature.

And that's what I'm hoping to see in this next

presidential election, is people on both the Republican

and the Democratic side who will appeal to people's,

you know, better angels.

And if they do, I think we can get to a better place.

It's going to be more difficult moving ahead,

like I said, just because of the media environment.

But it's not impossible.

Well, Ambassador, we'll have to leave it there.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Thanks for having me.

That's all for today's show.

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Mike Pesoli.

It was edited by Hadley Robinson.

It was engineered by Miguel Carascal

and has original music by Rob Smurziac.

Claudine Bade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio.

And Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

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Until next time, I'm Adam Harris.

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