‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 Breakdown With Showrunner Ryan Condal

Greetings and welcome to House of R. Very Special episode.

We have Ryan Condole here with us today.

We're also going to talk to you about the season 3 finale.

We're going to dive right in.

If you're wondering where the deep dive is still coming.

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That's Mallory Rubin.

I'm Joy and Rob.

Just a kid's shooting you for the first time to see Ryan Condole.

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We're huge book readers but there are no book spoilers in this conversation with Ryan Condole.

Correct.

All safe for you to enjoy if you're just a show watcher.

And I'm excited for you to hear what he has to say.

All right.

What a treat back on the podcast for I believe the fourth time, which might be a record.

Wow.

Season two primer.

A brief appearance on a House of Recommends episode.

And of course the props extravaganza.

It's House of the Dragon Show runner Ryan Condole. Welcome back.

Hi guys. Very good to be here.

Thanks for coming.

We're thrilled.

We have 975 questions for you but we'll try to cut it down as we go.

In real time.

We'll see.

Hot off the finale.

We have so many things we're excited to dive into and discuss.

Theme, lore, character.

Want to start with morality.

The moral gray.

Because team black is by design increasingly hard to root for as the story on.

On for alls and obviously the finale gave us some nice child murder and betrayal and a slang of the man of the cloth, etc.

To further that team green meanwhile.

Has proven to be I think Joe and I would both say more empathetic than we or most book readers ever dreamed possible.

How as you now wrap up season three and think about season four, just in general, adapting the story.

How do you balance living in the moral gray that is so essential to the story's core intention and certainly to the core focus of the corrupting nature of power.

While giving audiences characters to root for or is part of the appeal to you.

Interrogating what it is that we root for and why and what the limits of that devotion.

And empathy might be and assessing you know why and how people lose their way whether and when they do whether there's a path back from that descent.

Yeah, I mean, I think I think you hit the nail on the head there Mallory the the I think you know sarah and I were much more interested in in the exploration of the moral gray.

And feeling like the original show gave us the kind of classic goodies and baddies within a morally gray landscape.

But we can all pretty much agree that like everybody at some point was rooting for John snow and Daenerys and everybody was rooting against most of the lasters at some point.

Whereas this show felt like to take the thing and kind of move it on.

Not that we're trying to make all but all deplorable characters, but it felt like we needed less of that of that sort of white hats and black hats that we had in the original show because the show.

Had done the hard work of establishing this world where that doesn't really generally exist.

And we were just more interested in in portraying these very complex characters that at times you could find you know sympathy and empathy for and times can be rooting for and other times you could be kind of kind of horrified by them and their actions.

And I think we've done that you know fairly successfully throughout the three season those as it kind of goes up and down and I love the response app following episode seven.

Because we're recording this before anybody has really reacted to episode eights the public has reacted to the day.

But I love the response episode seven were so many people have like texted me and they're like basically like you fucker I'm rooting for agon now.

Yeah, and also credits tongue-blank carnies wonderful performance. So he's just it's so it's so it's such a it's such a human.

Sympathetic performance and things that he's been through this year in the career the crucible so I love all that and I think we we always promised as a show that you would you would kind of flop back and forth between team green and team black.

And that didn't mean that you would be doing that in episode three of the show it just meant that like over the course of the series you would have these kind of tugs and pulls any any their direction.

And I think what the series revealed this year is everybody loves an underdog and now that the table is totally flipped and ran air and Damon are in the power position and the agon and amon all the people that you thought would be all powerful for all time now that they are the underdogs people are kind of interested in what they're doing.

Sunfire taking the world by storm. Sunfire yes everybody likes a little I learned that people really like kind of just figured dragons and in sheep's dealer and Sunfire two of our most popular market research testers.

Considering everything you just said about agon runira daemon all the rest and and where you wanted to land here at the end of the season was there a particular character arc that going into the season knowing where you were beginning and knowing where you wanted to end by episode eight you were most I don't know concerned about focused on you're like this is the one we really really have to nail the season and it's going to be the biggest challenge.

It just felt like agon and ranira it felt like the two now that those two are kind of sitting at the center of the dance which was again always the plan.

It just takes takes couple seasons to get there.

It felt like if we could if we could do the magic trick of taking ranira into the sort of the edge of the abyss perhaps you know starting across over and then bringing agon back from it and having this redemption this kind of Arthurian redemption arc where he draws the.

The dragon from the stone so speak and has people rooting for him it felt like we could really then we really we had we had done our jobs because you've really taken the audience on a ride and ended them in an unexpected place in a way that vault you hopefully rather excitingly into the final chapter of the final act of this thing because really then hopefully the feeling is that I don't know where any of this is going in a good way.

I don't know what to expect I can't predict the end of of this and how it's going to go and who I'm who I'm going to be rooting for or feeling feeling sorry for or unexpected tragedy those kinds of things we really want to put people there in the classic sort of game of thrones way.

I we want to ask you about a character who a lot of those things apply to is not in the season but certainly loomed over every minute of it for Sarah's.

The specter of the Sarah's and his legacy and his choices it was obviously an escapeable intentionally this season for for many of the characters and for many of the storylines but obviously most of all particularly for ranira.

Who's relationships to the ideals and the methods that he represented and that he espoused has undergone real evolution especially in the last couple episodes curious.

This can runira you know the two wolves inside of us all like balance pushing past the idea of living in that shadow and feeling like what the Sarah's the peaceful said had to be the policy or the approach that ranira tries to enact and and reject that as ranira did start to do at the end of the season is not befitting this moment in time.

While still then hanging on to and like maintaining sight of the series defining lessons that he set the tone with at the very beginning of the series you know about the harbingers over control and and drag and power and illusions and the lessons of the the doom of old Valeria etc like can she forge her own path and own identity but still hold on to what he taught her is the rejection we're sweeping than that.

Yeah I mean I think that was the big question for ranira over the course of the season is could she could two things be true at the same time could she hang on to the things that made this a risk.

Kind of a questionable king but made him.

Choose her to be air and also be an effective ruler as a female during war time and that's the thing that she's struggling with the entire season that's why we.

Kind of set up the triangle of Missoria Damon ranira because while Missoria's political messages slightly different from visaris it's more it's more about kind of populist message she is the visaris she is.

Renears conscience the reminder of the lessons of the seris taught her over the course of the season was Damon is Damon fire and blood right we can we're the prophecy justifies anything that we need to do we need to burn out our enemies we need to kill Darren all the things you're selling were empire builders you're thinking about you're worried about the.

Missing coin and King landing we should be thinking about dorm and conquering ss all those things that one totally expect Damon to do that's completely the right.

Lesson for Damon to take away from his experiences at Harren Hall last year it's like well now we can do it because it's meant to be so so that's a nearest pull is can I.

Can I have enough of Damon in me to be strong and be seen as legitimate and be taking seriously fear enough to rule and still be the service and she's trying and trying and trying all season long and then.

Damon lies to her she catches out his his deception over rena and sheep stealer Missoria is in her ear about this is why you can trust this guy and then I got his back and they're not only that but her.

The brilliant local move she thought she made of just declaring him dead has now bit her in the ass because his dragon and him have been resurrected and you know how people love a sign of religious sign and he's a high tower and the star except and all these things and now she's created.

King Arthur essentially if she had just said he's missing we don't know where he is please let me find them maybe it doesn't have this there's not this magical.

Sort of aura around his his return but but now she she kind of created this thing and and then and then she just snaps because the thing that she's been looking for all season is to be seen as that by the public and then he comes you know he comes back with his this figure dragon and suddenly.

Everybody's worshipping the guy again because people love an underdog and people love a male king so that's the thing that finally sends her over the edge and she's just like Missoria has to go.

And no offense to Missoria the person but Missoria the ideology has to go and I now have to completely throw in with Damon's philosophy if I any hope of winning this thing and hang on to the throne.

So things allosant for that brilliant idea to declare a gun dad I guess.

Pretty chat maybe outs and 40 chast that I do not ask you about Missoria you sort of answered my question it's a sort of why.

Renier sent her away if you're like if she represents the Renier's conscious to a certain degree she needed to send her away so I guess like if there's anything more you want to say about that but also.

So whatever you can say maybe for book readers who might be thinking about Missoria out there she's forever missing her ride out of west roast right so she's out here in the streets of Kings landing.

She might have a grudge of book readers might be making some connections to some things that they know that might be coming that Missoria might slot into another character anything you want to say about that Ryan condol.

I mean certainly you know certainly Missoria's business is not over and I think I think I think I think Renier realized that she could she could not hold the center at home with Missoria and Damon playing in the same space like one had one had to eventually go because it was just it was going to come to ahead and somewhere

and other and they're both cutting at each other behind their back they're in Renier is here and also Renier doesn't know what they're doing outside of her for you right she doesn't know who they're talking to and what kind of alliances they've formed on the side I mean Damon seems less less likely to have done that just knowing Damon he works more with steel and fire but Missoria is a you know secrets and whispers and lies are kind of portrayed so I think Renier is thinking about what I'm going to say.

I think Renier is thinking about all those things and and tries to center away in a way that's like you know the golden parachute the golden parachute to us but I think Missoria that wasn't what Missoria was looking for she was looking for you know access to the throne and the to realize the rise that she saw over the course of the last two seasons she's not quite ready to go yet and then I think she sees the turn and Renier she goes that that great shot that I think that she's going to do it.

I think that I know that Andre got and that is so I performed is the I think the all hell know shot so we'll see we'll see how that we'll see how that that goes but you know I think Missoria's business is not done in the city.

I think that's the theory brains are activated. We'll see that. Speaking of our theory brains something that you know when Joe and I do our deep dives we spend a obviously astonishing amount of time talking about every detail of the show and then at the very end we do book spoilers sections we're obviously not going to talk about spoilers here but now that the finale has air we can say like one of the things we were talking about throughout the season was they get a find a way to keep warm and alive because this is just like so fun right and so there's obviously like we knew that we're going to do that.

Ormond was faded to die at tumulten in the finale of the season but James Norton was so basically entertaining in the role and or was just such a like delicious villain from the word go from minute one we're curious even though again without getting into any particular so obviously like there are story reasons for him to be gone at this point and things that will happen after did you consider when you saw how like instantly indelible.

This performance was going to be did you consider keeping him around longer beyond the battle at tumulten James is so great he's such a delight I just I you know he's just one of those people that has that like or around him and just everybody is is just happy in his presence and he's so goddamn handsome it's really infuriating.

Yeah and I was like you know I'm only a couple years older than him but I was like I was looking at it was like how how are we aged so differently when we're basically born the same in the same year I guess writing versus acting maybe maybe had something to do with it but I got him good genes there but no I mean you know I'm a practical level like one of the reasons we were able to get a fantastic actor like that is because we promised him it was like a one you know sort of one season commitment and I think he actually loved the he loved he loved doing the show.

And was actually very very sad and sorry to go and I think had a great time and you know his own experience producing a medieval action show with with King and conquerer with front friend of the universe like possible so I think he came into it with this sort of oh my god like look at all the toys that you have this is wonderful and this is so amazing in the custom armor in the custom story he had this really kind of nice producer real reaction to being on the show.

So we loved having him around and he was great but I think I think one of the things I've always said I always say like being a good show runner is you have to let the show speak to you and you have to be in communication with the show and it can't always be what you want you have to sometimes tell have the show tell you what you want great example that is like Freddy Fox when going high tower we thought he was fantastic when you audition he came in we had this platform and then he just delighted everybody and it's like well this this feels and because he's a high tower with relations sort of everything.

Everywhere bring an orman to the story just feel like something that you know we can exploit to the shows to the shows benefit but then there are other times when I think you have to like just leave them wanting more in a way where this was the perfect arc for orman and to have him go out that way because of his to sort of perhaps biggest flaws his his his smell and substance issues and his rage issues kind of coming to the world.

So I think it's really good to do ahead in that in that final in that final act of the episode it just felt like the right way to go plus his arc sort of serves to to to tee up the the core greens who have been kind of on the run and on the lamb and the work that orman did has empowered egg on and amon in ways that they do not yet realize.

It was it was a glorious sort of passing of the torch let's talk about the brothers egg and an amon this is really I think it's okay to say I don't think this isn't in the book doesn't happen the book that I'm going to get to meet in this episode but the way that they do why was it important to you to bring an amon and amon together here in the hair and all sequence in the finale.

Well we wanted to we wanted to tee up what what was the common this is a good example of though it is not in the book it does not necessarily mean that it could not have happened simply because agon sort of disappears from the record we know he reappears over.

And we don't you know we know that he does not interact right with with agon again in in in the text that doesn't mean that he didn't it just means that the historians writing the book didn't have a record of it so there is a reasonable extrapolation that they could have crossed paths again had plans and maybe that's why.

You know the famous event that is yet to come for book readers happens in in in the way that it does I mean I think it's a reasonable extrapolation for us is a great example of just like the difference between a TV show in a book you you have to.

You you have to exploit moments like this to bring your core central characters back together at moments of high drama and we're heading into the final act here and it's so clear now the sides have been so you know well kind of.

Set up you have you have Ranera and Damon at the core on the black side you have a man and agon the core on the green side with Allison out there and you know free perhaps a free.

We'll see we'll see what happens when she comes back to King's landing in the direction of all the Blair and soldiers that have her and and then you have you know you have the other sort of you know the black free agents that are that are out there you know baila and rena etc but that sort of core for Ranera Damon and agon it feels like that was the right place to set us up going you know vaulting us into season four because that's largely who the story is going to be about at this point in the tele

like um I think you know since you hit there the distinction between a book a text and and making a TV show I want to kind of linger there for a second and ask you about the public declaration of the prophecy because in case there's anybody in the world whether or not they're on this right now who has been like how did this not make the history books if David said it on a small council meeting and then of course you know let's buy an order of magnitude expires.

The order of magnitude expand that one Ranera shouts it from the words of the set really curious to see how how you've been thinking about this because um you know on the one hand of course

Westerosi history is is peppered with like slight tweaks and variations of some sort of savior prophecy that kind of feels like all the peace and and and of the same um textual heft and you know to go back uh a few seasons and a few years when House of the Dragon started like I remember Joe and I were sitting next to each other at the pre-ear watching it and like gas when agon's dream the song of ice and fire was introduced in the story and you know from that minute onward it's been such a source of fact

fascination to us not only for all of the character which reasons like what do you do if this is a thing hanging over you right we've talked about that probably every single pod we've done since

but also just thinking about these questions of like okay when did this version the Targaryen specific version of this prophecy maybe get lost who passed it along when when regars discovering something in the scrolls

the dagger of prophecy like we've been nerding out about this stuff for so long and so I'm curious like how did it not make the history books in this specific version of it if we're near uh uh made a big stump speech about it in front of the masses or like were they all like we've got we're focused on the the new i makeup and look I love i makeup could be there I'm

yeah yeah Emma came to me one day and they were like yeah I'm gonna do this and I was like okay wow incredible incredible

genuinely incredible choice yeah sure chair um yeah when when Amidar see and then you know a man the night who did all the makeup for all the Harry Potter movies and then every you know basically

every big thing since so they're like this is our plan you're just like yep that's cool um as was were those materials

available many double times yes they were so I mean that's a great question I you know I think I think this falls into the category of you know

Targaryen's probably say some crazy shit during the darkest parts of the realm of the rain and we know that Reneira

was looked down upon at this point by the public and look in the book you know admittedly she kind of blocks herself inside and uh is grieving and get stick of waste and all the things that the book tells you

we needed a more we needed an active character to to be the main character of the show you know that was not that doing that story in its sort of you know

you know fullness would not really have worked um on you know in this in this TV series so that's where we come back to you have to look at how how histories are written and it feels like if you read

fire and blood with the eye towards the you have these three historians that sort of have an agenda or at least two of them because you know mushroom his agenda is just the hornious version of this

possible yeah but these two history it's two historians that kind of have an agenda to it not not to like be all team green but to kind of lay the blame for this farable war that killed so many

and that killed off the dragons and that weak in the Targaryen dynasty at the feet of if not just Reneira Reneira and Alison sort of for you know for

starting it that was a very interesting place for sara and i to work from in the crafting of the show and that's not to say nothing in the book happened and we throw it all out it's just we had to take we had to have certain

looks at at metal looks at the way histories are put together and written and it just feels to me that that is something that if you're trying to reconcile that you know versus

versus the book this is part of the mega with teats story and Reneira becoming this desperate and really desperately hanging on to power and if you think of all these small folk have never heard anything about magic and

prophecies and then the crazy lady from the red keep comes out in the Joan of Arc suit of armor and then says a bunch of shit about you know being the chosen one

it just and that is also why we had her say the prince of this promise and high learing does not know where she's right now in the mode no she's saying so look it's

we're taking liberties clearly but it felt you know right and correct for the television show and it feels like it feels like with a sort of you know object

object of objective eye towards the way history is written generally it feels like it it could possibly have just not made the record simply because they're doing the do we believe that this happened to be

but we know that she was sort of an angry dust that at this moment in in you know in the history right I have an expression I just want to really quickly in our

apologies that I'm like plunging into just a very dramatic and really nothing I can do with this point and I are producers were like hey

Joanna if you rely on sunlight that might not go well so listen this is your version of this is my new eye makeup yeah it's going to really

step the tone dark night of the soul over here sorry about that you just going to be to to like daffy duck or to

like to be a person possibly okay speaking of sort of I don't know taking liberties or I wouldn't put that way for this part but

like the backstory for Alice River you get to write a backstory for Alice River is such a mysterious character in the book

what was it like to come up with that backstory and and what were some of the you know why this version of her origin

I wish I could remember who pitched that and it's it's one of those things where it came so out of the collective and this is one of the things that we

and and this came this this came in the course of breaking season two so this is something we've been sitting on for a while

because there was a lot of it was like well how do you know Alice is great fun but how do we just keep her from just being

the the creepy witch lady that seems to know the right things the right time she has to have her own kind of

internal story and backstory and the reasons she's actually here and you get definitely get less of that with Damon

because I think she was she was playing Damon a different way she I think Alice sort of sees can read people and know what they need

and definitely Damon needed somebody more at arm's length and a man needed somebody very close that could kind of get in his head

getting the soul and really appeal to him so we really did a lot of work on that you know on her and we were kind of

around and around about it we had a lot of great ideas but it's like how do we knit all this together into a

cohesive thing where you can look even back at the Damon story and go oh I get what what this all what this all was

but it was really exciting when that when that you know when that came forward in in the room

because it's sort of was the grand unifying theory to sort of bring all this together and we know you know we now know

Alice's motivation in the wears and wise and yeah I mean it's just it was it was exciting in a way to tie it back to the history

the castle and the the the great lore around that I mean it's probably other than the ancient Targaryens it's probably

the most sort of wondered about character characters or house right house Aaron yeah or no it's house for right

yeah yeah yeah which just you know we were doing yeah

Alice or sounds like something yeah yeah yeah or maybe your name wasn't out Alice but you know at the time maybe

she's just going by Alice or rebrand yeah whatever I mean I imagine that I imagine lady heron's name was not Alice

because people would just go that's weird they have the same name but yeah it was really it was really

exciting it was it was fun to play with it kind of knit everything together and also kind of believes open

the idea that you know maybe this is also just the story that Alice told

which is also a distinct a distinct possibility yeah I'm treating

but we we we really like it and and you know certainly it helped gale out a lot in portraying the character

and she got many many stern warnings from me as you do press remember this comes out in the final

episode so please speak about it as you're motivating

resin to draw from what the things you're doing and like the second episode so

I would say that other than vampires and musicals Joanna's most fervent passionate life is which stuff go

correct so we'll we just hit that and we'll move into my number one passion which is drag us

but it's all you know of a piece in terms of magic and the fantasy that's right it's a good

crossover for you guys I mean just an absolute thrill for us the opening of the creative eggs this season we

we had a blast you know I have like cried on this podcast before talking about the way that this

show has captured something really elemental about what fantasy lovers like lovers of genre stories

who find something about that connection and that bond can appreciate when they're watching something like I

don't know mails and and and reenies sharing a look in their final moments together right so I'm curious

this was such a fascinating season for exploring things that could in some ways feel like they are

contradictions are at odds with each other but ultimately are are are all part of the this where my

Baltimore accent comes out and and Joe makes fun of me part of the brew going down to the ocean on part of the

brew um the dragon bond the centrality of that we've got the warnings about the hubris of control the

illusion of control right the vassarist harbingers and other characters have voiced you know very

recently at the penultimate of the season we had Helena voicing a lot are you not altered right we're

hearing this throughout the series and it's something that's on our minds we're watching gullet etc

ship breaker bay the inability for the writers to control their dragons one of our favorite like

subtle examples of that the season was caraxies telling Damon to fuck off as he went into the mountain

of the moon as Damon is about to go lecture right on the dragon bond right just delicious so we have that

and then we have egg on and sunfire on and on the list goes uh vague ours i flashing an

aemons dream the examination and genuine sincere interest of an appreciation for uh centering this bond

we talking we've talked a lot on the pod about uh you know the fire and blood passage that we love

about like the the dragons can channel their writers love and hate and obviously so much in the canon

about the nature of that bond is like mysterious and still shrouded in questions so you know I think one

of the things that I love so much about the the show is the way that the aspects of the dragon

writing lore and mythology when they are brought to the fore and fleshed out for us it's it's

consistently done through character arc and theme and i'm wondering just like as an adapter and as

the person you know making the show which part of that is most interesting to you like is it that

you feel the that it is an important paramount thing in a fantasy story in the dance of the dragons

or dragon war and the cost of dragon war and men are like dusk beneath their feet this has to be

centered it has to be questioned the doom of old valeria or is there something about the way that

the dragon center the questions about power strength the choices we make the hubris that can lead us

to stray that you find yourself drawn to when it comes to unlocking the thematic questions that

are most central for the human characters yeah i mean i'm interested in all of it i mean i the

the big thing we're making the show that has you know seventeen dragons in it and like look whether

we see every little one of them but there were seventeen dragons at this time in history there

better be distinguishing factors amongst them that aren't just like what color are they right

um and and and if you're going to make them you're going to spend all the money and all the time

and effort doing this they better damn well be interesting and the way that you make them interesting

is by interlinking them with the human characters in the show and also weaving them into the

semantics of the show and one of the big semantics of this of this show is particularly the season

is this idea of mutually assured destruction and the fact that you're you have these nuclear weapons

on both sides of the conflict that happened to be living sentient peace with mines of their own

that and some of them have been put into hands of the untrained and people that do not have

years of loyalty and legacy behind them like the alphan the hues of the world to keep keep them in

line because alph isn't worried about dishonoring his house because he has no house right

and uh so all of those things kind of feed into the manics and then and then character interaction

and we we felt like the way to because look you know you sit there for I mean really I don't see

I don't see proper dragons until like April before the show comes out I'm looking at guys and

blue unitars uh yeah cap or like cap or yeah yeah exactly bless them doing it bless them

totally committed all the time committed forever but that's what you're looking at as you're

cutting the show and trying to make this emotional story about the riders and their dragons so we

the I think the fear going into it was we better care about you know we're near is bond with

Syracis if we're ever going to care about Syracis and um so it kind of started there and then I

thought that stuff was really effective and then you know lo and behold the dragons uh they look

they look great yeah they're there there's there's tons of character and their animation

and people actually really care about them yeah link to and also independent of their riders so

we're sort of working from both ends so he's really interested in all that and then I'm a big

team guy so I'm just really interested in all the all those thematics and one of the big things that

you know I was really hammering way way back in the crafting a season one is we have to feel like

these dragons aren't aren't totally in control because that's that's how you keep the stakes up

for the series that this idea that you have you have a nuke but like it has a brain of its own

and it has this human sentience to it and it can just fly out of the silo when it wants and turn

on you turn on the rider turn on another dragon yeah that stuff is really interesting because it does

create this kind of an arctic chaos that feels reminiscent of the very doom we don't really know

what the cause of it was but the thing that brought down the valerian empire in the first place

feels very similar to the the warnings that came from that feels very similar to the kind of

themes and things that are going on in this particular period in the history um so that's

stuff that we spent a long time you know working on because you want to ground the dragons and feel

like as Dave Hancock said you know they're big stinky warplanes um with with and with a need for

abundant fuel to sheep goats you know pigs all the all the things you know taking the feet away

from the people so all that stuff is part of interesting on like a you know building your little

civilization board and in the economics of now where it war so the dragons are hungry because

they're supplying all the time to the needle the sheep and then the people don't have food and they

get hungry and they don't have wool and all this stuff gets really interesting so there's like

practical aspects of that and then there's a kind of meta sort of magic bond thing that makes you

care about it but all that stuff we've been working very hard at that because it feels like that was

something that was particularly unique to house of the dragon versus game of thrones where dragons were

brand new and every time they flew overhead everybody had to look up because nobody had ever seen a

dragon before whereas kings landing they fly overhead all the time and and it's just there's a dragon

infrastructure there's dragon keepers and dragon pits and dragon moths and satelry and and training

and and all that and yes medical attention too so as we've as we've learned and they knew it yeah

yeah um as I continue to pledge a darkness um I want to ask you it's really great guys so happy

it's it's very on theme with that episode uh season three episode eight true true true true this is my

own doom that's happening around me um let's talk about something very dark that happened

Helena where Helena goes out the window uh we book readers knew it was coming but it was still I

mean all the work you via did and and the writers did all season to sort of build up to this I

thought was really incredible and a dramatic visual as well uh a couple details I want to ask about

the butterflies and sort of your your idea of that metaphor of the butterfly what allocinces what

the the hints we got earlier in the season and then uh the tapestry of raneera which I think I'm

interpreting as like her covered in cuts on the throne which is very raneera in the book is that

what we're meant to take from what raneera sees on haleena's tapestry left by the window um well

I'll answer the tapestry one first I mean I I think you know I think you should take another

close look at at the image thank you um when you when you can freeze-cram it I have a question for

you guys actually but just to just to take a slight detour for a moment when you get these early

screeners how are you watching them are you watching on like a big TV with loud speakers is that

possible yes I do yes yeah you're not watching on the iPad okay no yeah there's a there's an apple

this an apple tv app for the screeners app so we can have it okay okay if I'm just really

stress with me because I watch you know you watch this thing on like this big mixtape

of course and like oh my phone you're sitting and yeah and then I'm I'm I'm taking in these people

that are like no covering the show watching it on an iPad or on their laptop or something like

especially an episode like let's just pretend let's pretend I have already gone back and freeze-cramed

and look at it why are you just pretend that I got it right and tell me what I was looking at

well I think there's a lot to pull out of the I think there's a lot of interpretation to pull out

of the image so I don't want to I don't want to speak to it look I don't think it's helpful to I

think it's more interesting to be left a little bit of interpretation what I will say is that

you know Reneira is not seeing a positive reflection of herself in the tapestry and I think so

much of that final moment that you see with her is her choosing what is she what is she going to do

if if she actually believes that Helena is the dreamer that she is and she's seen the

address of the tabushu Helena has been stitching her her own demise for quite some time now

if she chooses to believe that Helena is this thing that the Saras had existed and

Helena told Reneira that Amin was in Harinhal and Amin was in Harinhal then she has to maybe

also believe that what she's looking at is her now or a future depiction of her right so I think

I think that's the that's the thing that she's she's struggling with in that final moment she

has to decide what what am I going to do with it and then of course she's see her drop it and then

close the window and we go to black so I think you can I want to leave some of this stuff up

to interpretation because I think that's the that's the fun but I would just take a you know the

tapestry that the embroidery working on that and and the art that was done the art department would

would like draw the image and then send it off to this incredible embroiderer that made that made

the tapestry and it was just the amazing delight to to watch so it was it was something that we were

really excited about for Helena across the season because it was something that was super

visual that we could play with and play back to and see her working and not see what exactly

she's working on you get these little snips of it and then to end the season with this really

this big kind of reveal of what she had been seeing or thinking about yeah before before her end

and the butterflies the butterflies um so you know so many characters and over the course of the

season are going through this kind of metamorphosis this transformation we knew from Helena going

back to season one when she was played by you know a different actor Helena has an

obsession with the the insect kingdom right and the the idea of this season of Helena kind of

going through her own metamorphosis of being very much a for her life a kind of caterpillar

in a cage and then put into this kind of pupil state by putting into being put into Renearest

prison and being obsessed with their out of season all the little little snips that you got

across the season and then we and then Sarah Sarah actually had this this great image of

of Alice and having this premonition at the end while she's on the road back to King's landing having

seen Helena deal with these caterpillars over the court the course of the whole season seeing

this cloud of butterflies come up and just having this she doesn't know anything but she just

it's that that mother Lansing that something horrible has happened and and we just really liked

that image and we liked the sort of visual metaphor and how tied back into Helena's character

and and her the sort of sad tragedy of it is Helena setting herself free you know finally

freeing herself and being given wings is is she had to you know take her take her own life

and the life of a vulnerable child in the in the process right um

um

from from one just gentle lovely soul to another Darren yeah you know we we longed we waited we yearned

and we were rewarded because this is just wonderful rendering of the character a wonderful

performance and we are I don't know we've had we've had evolutions of who are we shocked to be

most invested and I think for a long time Lairess and Egon is like our favorite to do to spend

time with was a shock to both of us um but I think we would both say that you know Lairess Lairess is

Lairess is your favorite of mine you're a Lairess lady and you always have been even though he

cowardly talked tale and ran and claimed that he would make sure that all of Egon's great

deeds or intelligently chose sure on trying to defend him yeah what what was he gonna do he wasn't

gonna do he wasn't gonna he wasn't gonna find it would have been it would have been very out of

character for him to stand stand around and die die for that I guess I'm team title and

land a story which is again that shocked me but I do think that Gauane and Darren are just

top on the list for us in terms of pairings that we are so just riveted watching and really

emotionally invested and at this point on the Darren front you know he's introduced into the story

and midway through the series other than obviously some mentions in season two but like it's really

about you know we're setting up in these last few episodes these big things with Darren he's a

character who's really taking seriously what does it mean to be a good king and not performatively

like he is earnestly assessing that right what went into deciding to make something like Darren

the Darren as his moniker uh an orman PR play rather than something that Darren earned out into the

in the field you know to keep Tissarian chained in the sept rather than entering battle at this point

in the story uh you know and for Tissarian Darren has really at this point one of the few characters

in the show who we would like credibly believe would say and mean I have no fear of insignificance

like that's not that's not how I make my decisions that's not how I see what's right and wrong

yeah I mean we I mean that's great to hear I mean that was it's it's a thrill I mean that I think

the Tumbleson story is one of our proud accomplishments this season took it was brand new and to get

everybody you know ramped up and that invested in in just a couple episodes was was very exciting to see

and it's a credit to all the performances of those three tremendous actors um that uh you know that

played played part of that triangle and when we hired Ben who's uh Benjamin Evinayansworth who plays

plays Darren um and alternatively at times also playing an elf in high rule that's right um yeah

yeah yeah we uh we we needed him for like a little pickup so they had poor kid had to like fly

halfway around the world and and march to say like one line that just didn't catch we didn't have

the right angle of him saying one line so we had to have him come back all the way through get the

jump from New Zealand get the red wig back on yeah exactly yeah that's right that's right take off the

ears and put on the wig and um but we told him when we cast him that basically ormaned is the

dominating father figure in your life and whether you say it's a literal father or stepfather however

you want to look at it kind of that he had plays the father role and then Gwayne is the kind older

the kindly older brother who's trying to protect you from the you know the at times abuse of father

and that was sort of the basic way that we we gave him but this kid who came in and just a very

young actor and just has this incredible uh worldliness and emotional intelligence to him that could

could extrapolate from all that and come up with these little these little things and the way he

picks it his nails and that was not something that we gave him he watched all the shows and picked

that up from Allison and said I really want to I want to do the thing that my mother was doing when

she was my age and because that's the way the people will kind of see our connection and so much

of that that he you know that he he brought to the role and giving him the hair you know the hair

that makes him look literally like you know like like his mother and just like Kate Rose James

casting and just finding these faces that that look alike and in a way that's credit they're

credibly related it's just it's just incredible um so we decided all about all that and then but

then also like how do we turn this thing on its head and make you know we know the daren was the most

in the book the most sympathetic probably of the of the siblings yeah in the story we know

Lena probably as well but the most sympathetic of the boy is certainly sons Allison's son yeah

but do we need to just make this kind of Arthurian hero out of him to do that or is there

another way about it that can explore character for both daren and then also for for ormond to

realize how he has um worked his way close to the throne because ormond is one of these great

political operators and in in the great thronesy and tradition of my plan is not to be on the throne

my plan is to be standing at the foot of it as your hand because that we that is actually where the

true power lies right um and for ormond to do that he has to dominate or daren control him a

little bit lift him up make him feel great about himself night him when it's important and also

keep his dragon chained up because the dragon is the thing that's a real threat to you know the

threat to ormond and certainly i think ormond would have deployed to sorry and in battle if he had

needed to and gotten there in the fight but i think the feeling was with caraxies on the field

and then vermithor showing up and with with silver wind hopefully in play to sorry and would really

only be under threat at that point it would kind of be a it would seem maybe like a you know a

a poor side-ass move um for him uh in in in that in that case so it's not i don't think the plan

is never to use and deploy to sorry and the plan was just to you know save that save that piece

until he needed it and not and to keep daren in in his place and also alive because that's

dormant powers derived from daren being alive and having a claim to throw right uh well the rats have

eaten all the towel in the candles uh where i am um so i think i think i've done except i guess

here's my it's not a question this is my last thing i'll say it's not a question on behalf of house

beesbury my faves i need to say that the line honey hold a trifle really hurt me personally

on behalf of house beesbury and i just wanted to protest log my complaint from the darkness here uh

here yeah it's big good buzzing yeah but yeah singing at you if i could so yeah Sarah Sarah had this

great this great joke and and we of just you the beesbury army coming and they're coming over the

hill and you just you just hear this i mean you just see all the little shapes the wonderful

beware i'm staying yeah yeah but yes but i'm very i'm very glad that um beesbury got its spotlight

in night of the seven kingdoms it felt like that guy was very proud uh that night was very proud to be

a uh a member of house beesbury and took took his his his b-feme very seriously oh my god when he

came to the tournament and the the the the die of the stash iconic incredible what an insight into

the coffin procedures later um Ryan thank you thank you for being so generous with your time thank

you for joining us we hope you come back come back and season four talk to us again i love to i

love i will have a light that time i promise this is very it's very part of us becoming

very house of the dragon here house of dragon season one maybe there you go um but you know i would

i would just say to you guys i just you know thank you for you know all the um you know the very

passionate uh coverage that you make for our show and i think for other shows in the universe i think

the internet has become such a fraught place of kind of rage bait and clickbait these days but to have

a place where you can go where you can have thoughtful discussion of something and look there you know

with warts and all kind of you know honest sort of debate over over the genre work that all of us

work so hard to make is it really you know it's just a really good resource to have because it just

feels like there's so many other places where it's just trying to make people either click or click

angrily or some combination of both so i think this is uh i think i think you know house of ours just

a great resource and we're we're all you know lucky for it better for it thanks as as nerds the

nerds unite thank you Ryan seriously thank you Ryan honorary the rn Ryan house of our honor

remember thank you so much for joining thank you so much okay how much did you enjoy um the light

source constantly draining out of my side of the video on that Mallory as i told you i thought it

was very compelling dramatic beauty i i quite liked it i quite enjoyed it what a wonderful chat

Ryan's the best just a complete joy to get to hear all of his insights on the season all these

characteristics and all of the twists and turns and surprises in the finale i feel like we got

a solid verbal that will chat again in season four so that's exciting already something to look forward

to i still don't know exactly what i'm supposed to be seeing on that tapestry i have looked at the

freeze frames since he mentioned it hopper's and dragons and do you have a lot of questions if you

if you have any deeper insights into what is on the tipestry and speaking of deeper we will see you

tomorrow evening ish for the deep dive fending what times on urine that's right

on the season three finale of house of the dragon sad it is sad i'll miss it season four

a couple years away we have a lot of really cool plans cooking for this fall though i'm really excited

we'll see you then bye

so