X-Men Casting Rumors and ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day.’ Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 Finale.

I need support staff to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now!

Hello and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at theRinger.com and joining me in the studio is alive!

It's Andy Greenwald!

Which one were you talking to?

Which one's it?

Who is the live?

In the show?

A house of the dragon?

Were you going to spoil something?

What?

How's the dragon at the top?

How are we spoiling it?

Well if you said who you were talking about.

Well I assume people listening to the watch on a Monday have watched House of the Dragon

on a Sunday.

That's hope so.

Look I'm just excited to see you.

I'm excited to see you too.

You were on vacation man.

I hope it was restful.

Not really.

Yeah.

We had a lot of forest fires.

A lot of God parenting.

But it was good.

Yeah.

It's good to see you though.

Some housekeeping.

Obviously watch it spotify.com for emails.

The watch pod underscore to Instagram for Reels for viral content.

Walkman versus Stroke Stakes.

Thank you Kai.

How does it feel going over the middle of catching those hospital balls?

You know what?

It gave me a new appreciation for some of your work.

Thank you.

That was like some real like no wonder Julian Edelman is a little bit fucked up.

You know like it's it's got it's off out there.

Yeah.

I mean you made the catch but it what costs.

But I also I stand by what I said.

I it is what it is.

You know and if you don't like it.

Maybe this is the podcast for you.

I would just say that you chose an interesting target though because Julian Kussleblanc

is right songs about his critics now.

I heard that.

So you maybe I'm like I said I don't think I'm going to rise to that level for him but

that's.

You are listened to in the halls of power in this nation.

We'll see.

We'll see.

For now.

Like in Mitch McConnell's coffin.

He's like I got hold on.

Do you really green love said about the hot deep now?

Well, he's heard a lot of spider man takes last week.

I did see that.

Great great fucking image of it was a do you know it was like Mitch McConnell is working

for.

So it was just a view is like my work from.

Start.

Are we doing that?

Okay.

We're doing it.

Your back for vacation unfettered.

So that's housekeeping for how you can get in touch with us.

You can watch us on YouTube at the Ranger TV.

Ranger-TV YouTube channel.

Yeah.

That we share with the prestige TV podcast and you can also watch us on Spotify or

Opulus and to us or you can listen to us on a variety of podcasts networks or platforms.

And furthermore.

Yeah.

I think we should just say out front today it's hot D and B and D. We're doing house

the dragon finale a little bit of delayed spider man reaction and also like some

state of Marvel stuff which I know we've hit a lot recently.

But it's out there.

But it's D23 on Friday and Andy and I like the X-Men and we're just going to talk

about it.

Okay.

How are you celebrating D23 on Friday?

I think I might go see the end of Oak Street which is not a Disney property.

Last thing is that people will be curious to know our thoughts on the episodes of

Furious that have aired since we last discussed it.

And my thoughts at least on the first couple episodes of Lioness season three although

I know that you are a dabbler.

You're sort of a lion dabbler not a lion tamer but you like to get like to stick a stick

a foot in the cage.

I am really touched by something that we should talk about that you carried with you in

your heart.

This idea that I had been keeping up with lioness out of my devotion to you in your

worldview.

I thought it might be just out of your devotion to stay up on the news.

I thought that was so sweet when you you you you faltered when you heard that I hadn't

been.

So that worked on me.

So now I feel like I should reengage.

Also I did see a comment from a listener that this whole time they thought we were saying

Lioness and then it was some sort of like dark tinge key nuts reboot.

Which I'm there for.

Somewhere someone has taken that meeting.

For sure.

Like what if Pigpen was the grime that clung to him was actually the grime of society.

Right.

Yeah.

Pigpen is taxi driver.

Yeah.

So furious and lioness on Thursday today.

Furious is so good.

By the way, I can't wait to keep talking about it.

I just want to I'm caught up.

You are bursting at the seams to talk about Furious.

I am so impressed by that show in ways that I think will might be I don't know.

I'm eager to try and articulate.

But I think it's really, really special.

Good.

Lioness is on Paramount Plus.

This is a necessary segue.

Sure.

And so is the agency which we talked about extensively season two.

The American adaptation of Libero.

This future has been largely kind of undecided.

You know, usually something like that.

A show that expense to make.

And of the cast of that quality, you'd expect kind of like an immediate decision after

the season.

Yeah.

Perhaps Paramount was waiting to see what kind of numbers were coming in in terms of people

catching up with the season.

But after a couple of weeks of us being like no news is bad news.

Yeah.

There are some rumblings, both ones that we've heard and also ones that showed up in Leslie

Goldberg's Ancler Newsletter.

Right.

And since been aggregated.

And when I went back to Leslie Goldberg's Newsletter, I was like, I wonder how people

are making this deduction.

She basically did a huge survey of everything that Cindy Holland who runs Paramount TV

now.

Yes.

Hasn't development.

And what she's got kind of coming back.

And what.

And in the returning shows category, she did include the agency season three.

And that was aggregated as confirmation of renewal.

Right.

That is not the case.

That is not the case.

But we will monitor the situation.

Yeah.

I would say based on rumblings that I think that there is, that we are not alone in hoping

that the show is renewed for a third season.

But I do think that they're the kind of negotiations that we usually aren't privy to and the kind

of negotiations that we actually would be kind of opaque to us regarding money, etc.

Are happening right now.

So we just have to imagine that fastbender has like a window.

That's the other thing.

That's a real, as do the butterworths because they're making many other television shows.

Yeah, making layered.

They're making mob land season two is about to air.

They're still supposed to make season three with Hardy coming back.

And it's not just the fastbender as a window in a schedule.

It's that all actors on returning shows have holds.

And usually, and sometimes they even have like, pay or play things in terms of like they

get paid if their decision isn't made by a certain point.

So I would say that compared to when we talked about it, and really enjoying the season

like a couple of weeks ago, I would say I'm slightly more optimistic that we'll see

more of it.

But I don't feel comfortable saying that it's, I mean, obviously there's no news, but

I don't feel like it's a sure thing.

And we don't even know who, I would say there's a, there's as good a chance that it would

be on another service that it would be on Paramount.

X-Men casting.

That was the other thing I wanted to talk to you about because we're going to talk about

Spider-Man.

This is, I know that you and I give the MCU a lot of grief and we have talked a lot

over the courses like the Run of Our Show about comic book film fandom.

Yes.

Which I honestly count myself as a part of.

Do you?

Yeah.

A blue dog in that coalition.

But it's a big tent.

Yeah.

I have to admit that the X-Men stuff coming out of Spider-Man is actually like awakening

something inside of me a little bit where I am.

I'm legitimately excited.

Tell me what I talk about.

Well, because of the way that I think I enjoyed Sadie Sink in Spider-Man a lot, spoiler

alert.

But furthermore, like I just like the people who are working on it as far as like the

choices that they're making.

Like Sunny, Jake Trier, Joanna Collo.

I don't like, I like them personally, but like I don't know them personally that well.

I just, all I'm saying is that like it's a cool choice.

And so far they've cast Kit Connor as Cyclops, Kit Connor who I saw in an Alex Garland movie

Warfare.

But I'm not super familiar with that.

It's hardstopper, right?

He was to start one of the stars of Hardstopper.

What was that?

This long running Netflix romantic show based on the best selling graphic novel series.

I feel like when we talk about long running YA Netflix shows, like Chris Hanson's going

to walk in.

You know how this looks, right?

Can we talk about that trailer?

That is so sick.

I'm really wondering if you were like, there's no way I'm going to watch that.

I have rarely been as turned on by a trailer, as Tony Revelorrie was.

You know, this looks yeah.

I saw that trailer and I felt alive.

It looks so good.

Yeah.

And exciting.

And he looks, he's just blacking out right now and I thought that was thrilling.

And also instant memes.

So it's, he's, he, he may need to take himself out of things soon.

Yeah.

Because between beggars and that, it's like that's all you see.

It's his face.

And now people are going back and grabbing like this funny interview he did in 2013.

He's just, he's, he's patented and run shit right now.

He's also like, they're also, he's, he is now, did you see the clip of him?

Like he's critiquing his own performance and twilight.

Yeah.

Being like how he sat down at a table and one scene and like did it with his fingers because

he thought that was an elegant vampire way to sit.

He's just like, he's having a great time.

Uh, kick out our cyclops.

Okay.

He's think his gene gray, some arrow weaving is Emma Frost.

Now these are, nothing is official official.

Right.

But these have been reported as opposed to aggregated as rumors.

Then there are rumors.

Yes.

But three actors testing for Professor X.

Wait, there's, there's one, there's two others that are strongly rumored.

Well, I bet I'm going to get to them.

Do you want me to keep reading?

No, no, when you skip Professor X and come back to it and do the other ones.

Uh, Adam Driver is Sebastian.

When you skip that one, Indian Everettia is misty.

No, skip that one.

Did you tell me Charles Melton as beast and Kaylee Spani as rogue?

Okay.

Only because those have been, at that, those have been repeated for a very long time.

Charles Melton was on a beast list for a while and then, you know, this looks right.

To catch a beast.

And, uh, and then both of them obviously started.

Patrick, Chris Hansen walking in the guys just solving math problems.

You're making it sound better.

Um, no, I mean, what if like Charles Xavier and adult is like, I must recruit special

children for my school and Hansen comes in.

There's a lot of opportunity for overlap here.

Sunny who show rent beef and Melton and Spani work the co stars of the season.

There's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of wind horse finger tea leaves there that make a lot of sense.

Sure.

Then there is the more that so that those are, I would feel confident about all of that.

And now we're into the realm of like, Oh, you're serious about that.

Kevin Feige has been publicly saying that he's been trying to get Adam Driver to join the

MCU for years and he keeps rejecting them.

The rumor is that he would play Sebastian Shaw.

Yes.

And I would know him from this is also going to be my favorite year plus of content.

Where he'll be like, Oh, the 12, a storyline in which even Iceman is considered one of the

most powerful mutants ever to live.

I guess.

Can you explain it to me?

Dork?

No.

I was setting you up to, part of the list.

It's fine.

It's fine.

The direction this is going.

Some of you may remember Sebastian Shaw from Kevin Bacon's iconic performance in the role

in what was that first class?

Yes.

Apart from Driver, it is a cool character to be considering for a reboot because it does

sound like they are avoiding at least in the near term redoing Wolverine and redoing

Magneto, neither which are obviously important parts of the methods, but not essential.

And they are doing Emma Frost, the white queen who started as a villain partnered with Sebastian

Shaw, the black king.

They are the evil mutant overlords of like kind of a freaky so how.

He has fur no cl- what's that hard club?

Hellfire club.

I mean, I'm not a member, but like so how I imagine a similar vibes.

And then in Grant Morrison's run 25 years ago, Emma Frost became sort of an anti-hero and

then full, like really important part of the team.

But the idea of like, it's more classic Fieghit to me if like this is a really strong

character that's been on the bench and on the back burner and we can use better for

the story we want to tell if it's going to be Sebastian Shaw.

Really better than casting Adam Driver as like Mr. Sinister or something.

Yes.

Like it was like that.

The Wolverine part was into I did not know that they were holding off on casting that

or holding off on the character or arriving just yet.

That's interesting, especially because I would imagine Jackman is going to make several

appearances in the upcoming Avengers films.

Yes.

Now I have my own thoughts on that.

Save them for your sub-stack what?

I don't think that the Fox X men are going to be in that movie very long.

I think this is one of your strongest and most accurate takes.

I think the first 15 minutes have been put in the trailer, honestly.

That's a good way of looking at it.

But if you get Jackman Jacked, he'll be more than you.

He'll be more than you have.

He'll have to have go snick, snick, a couple of times, right?

Yeah, but also don't you think it's going to be like, oh no.

First of all, please can you do that again just for social?

I think there's going to be like, oh, the incursion of the multiverse has claimed James

Marsden and also Kelsey Grammer somehow.

Not president wildcat again.

Somehow Hugh Jackman has returned.

Yes.

I don't think that's going to be an issue.

As you know, as a super fan, canonically Wolverine was not an original member of the

X-Men.

Yes.

Actually, you know, me just for a appearance in a Hulk comic.

Oh, I didn't know that.

I didn't know that.

I don't really need to see his whole like super soldier Canadian skeletal replacement

storyline.

I think I got that.

Yeah.

You're good on that.

But like it'll be cool when they finally do cast Robert Pattinson as Wolverine.

That'll be awesome.

You'll be very happy.

There's other rumors, I think based on some like like the deep dork web where they're

like, well, Daphne Keane will be a part of this cast as X 23.

And I'm like, okay, you've lost me.

Even me.

Okay.

You think it's cool not to have Magneto?

I think I mean, I, we got to play a long game.

Right?

Let's do the Professor X casting thing because then I think my answer to it's cool not

to have blank is actually my answer to why I think the Sadie Sink reveal and gave me

a lot of confidence in this movie.

Okay.

So let's put a pin in that.

So the Professor X rumors circle now around Bill Scarsgard.

People will remember his Pennywise from the Ed Films.

And as he's kind of always a freak.

I can't remember what was his name in John Wick for.

Oh, did he have a cool name?

Yeah, he did.

He was Marquis Vincent Bissett to something.

And that's a cool name.

He DeGromont.

DeGromont.

Bill Scarsgard, Christopher Abbott, who folks may remember from girls, but is now kind

of like an established and highly like critically like a door Indie film and stage actor

and his intervening years.

And Tom Pellfree, beloved Tom Pellfree from Ozark and Task are all being tested for have

been tested for have read for the most recent and I don't know if any.

I mean, who knows about any of this, but the most recent reporting from Jeff Snyder

was Pellfree's out.

Okay.

But I don't know if we can hold stock in any of this, but there you go.

You got to shave the head.

Yeah, although McAvoy didn't shave the head in the first movie, but then he did and

then it looked very silly.

Yes.

And Pat Stewart just will not let that chair go.

No, he's fried out of his finger.

He's cold.

He's scared up.

Yeah.

But I think that's cool to go for a very young like this is a young cast.

That's a young professor X.

They can grow old together.

You know how this looks, right?

I mean, it's right there.

It's good to be back.

It's good to be back.

I would say.

I was like kind of like, it's good to be back.

Come on.

You missed it.

We can just like, there's probably a couple other things to touch on, but like why not

say it here?

You know what that looks right?

Can we just drop the audio?

It's fair use, right?

Before we talk about Spider-Man, my main takeaway for that film is the thinking man's

pause.

Finally.

They took that joke from us.

My main takeaway and this is, you know, your mileage may vary on whether this is a good

takeaway from a massive Spider-Man movie was it gave me faith in what Marvel was going

to do with X-Men because of the way that they introduced Jean Grey, the president of

the caliber of the actor and the performance.

Instantly, I was like, she's awesome.

And she's a star.

And she has the charisma to hold this movie.

She's the first stranger thing seasons.

The first one.

The first one.

Yeah.

But I had not seen, I was not as familiar with her work.

And you had seen her iconic running up the hill moment then.

No, nor did I see her in, was it John Proctor plays the villain on stage that you said?

My wife adored that performance.

She did.

It's like the greatest thing she's ever seen.

Like was say, he's saying cotton and cotton.

I think that's awesome.

So they, so already they were like working from a place of confidence.

But I think the idea of introducing them as kind of, you know, potentially not just

feared and misunderstood, but maybe actively hated as terrorists for their behavior and

their actions was, it's not radical.

There have been chapters of X-Men history that have done that.

But I thought that was an interesting and confident commitment for the beginning of that

story inside an existing universe that also already has superheroes.

Yeah.

I think people have said this for a while that one of the blessings, one of the many blessings

that have been bestowed upon Kevin Feige was actually not having the rights to everyone

because it allowed some focus because the idea of some superpowered people are heroes.

But no, me.

And some are gross and weird.

It's like that meme of the person calling HR or desk, depending on the two people showing

up.

Like that is hard to square.

So this movie actually did a lot of labor.

I would say that's true generally about the movie, but it did a lot of labor to differentiate

heroic heroes from antiheroes.

I thought it introduced what is the central thesis of X-Men comic books that makes them

so powerful for so many generations of readers and viewers is like that idea of like

difference and that idea of like being rejected by society for your difference.

And being hunted and feared.

Yeah.

I think that they articulated that really well in a Spider-Man movie, which we'll talk

about now.

So this is obviously spoilers for what will probably be the most popular movie in the

world this year.

Yes.

With June three and Avengers, June's day, receipt still waiting to come in in December.

But outpacing the Odyssey and out earning endgame.

Estonishing.

You know, I was just having this conversation with a couple of friends on a text thread

the other day about like trying to explain obsessions or even to count for the movie

obsessions popular.

Who's on the text line?

Sheel, Jalen Brown, John Cruck.

Choose carefully.

That's fine.

Mitch McConnell.

I've been very busy.

Yeah.

No, we were just talking about like, you know, obsession, really good movie.

It's astonishing that it made half a billion dollars, you know, and how do you account for

that?

I kind of feel similarly about the Spider-Man movie, which I really liked.

But I'm also like, this is the biggest movie of the year.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Like, there's not to me a like, it's not like a run out and tell your friends how important

it is that they see this superhero movie.

Right.

But I do think it's a testament to the goodwill that the franchise over many iterations

and specifically that Tom Holland franchise has built up that like, there is a repeat

and repeatable experience people are having in the theater when they go see this movie.

And you kind of come out with a little bit of a pep in your step, whether or not you

think it's like dark night good or not, like, you're still kind of like, damn, that was

like kind of fun to watch and also a little bit surprising here and a little bit thoughtful

there.

Well, the level of quality of that franchise is really remarkable over the three iterations

and particularly of this one.

I would say that this might not even be like, this usually doesn't fall into our Bayley

Wick of coverage, but like, it, people are seeing a Tom Holland ends and day a movie as

much as they are seeing a Spider-Man movie.

I say that from my own household experience where my kids loved it and wanted to see it

opening weekend, but I think the emotional engagement, especially for my 13 year old is

like almost entirely like these absolutely beloved and, you know, adorable, generally

celebrities.

And the continuation of their story.

And it was actually, it did my jaded heart good to see that I do think the reaction.

I'm sure there are, there's a percentage of the audience, which is globally enormous

who are like, oh, I really like the, you know, Daniel Dessen credence, like renewed

commitment to physics when Spider-Man swings into Scorpion really kept me glued to my seed,

but really the fact that the moments of tension in the story are, are, is she going to remember

that they love each other or not?

Sure.

And that the movie essentially punted on that for future movies was incredibly impactful.

And so you get to see in real time like a collision of some of the biggest movies of the

last few years, like, weirdly, and again, I, I think I'm with you in the sense that I'm

like, not like Jason Bateman and Arrested Development, but like her about this movie, only

because as a movie, if we're going to talk about it by its parts, I thought it was fine

to good.

I don't think it was like earth changing, but it does seem to unite the same fandom that

went to see Infinity War and Endgame with the fandom that 30 years ago went to see Titanic

in terms of like, I want to see the love story of our time play out.

Yeah.

That is an incredible, um, Venn diagram.

If you want to be a successful, if you want to be successful at the box office.

Did you detect any of the Tom Holland has hit pause on Spider-Man because he was so deeply

changed by working on the Odyssey that he wanted to bring some of the lessons of filmmaking

that he learned from Christopher Nolan and apply it to Spider-Man?

The moment that made me think of that quote was when early in the film, when Peter goes

into a bodega, and he sees Ned for the first time, and he's like, oh my God, my past has

come and intersected with my presence.

It's a feeling probably Odysseus felt as well as he too stood in front of his non-alcoholic

beer brand place just behind my face in every shot of this scene.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, there was an intention to the artistic purpose in that moment.

You're such a simple man.

Yeah.

No, and he's just like, with the part early on, where he's like, even my Samsung phone can't

find out what's going on.

Yes.

I mean, I live in the world.

I get it.

But, um, to answer your question, 100% no.

Yeah.

Um, but that doesn't mean it wasn't successful in what it was, but it wasn't that type

of movie.

I just think that even before he worked on the Odyssey, one of the hallmarks of this

franchise has been its willingness to have the types of human moments in both performance

and in script that are often the first things edited out.

And like, just a small moment, like, gene searching for VMAX, and it's just the last thing

our sister saw is been a fascinating case study because I think that was, that was a lovely

little script moment.

Like that was a nice thing that had some nice emotional resonance and payoff.

And then I do think there's a portion of the audience that's just like, what did that

mean?

Because it was not used to things are being handled.

It was not quite full commentary on Easter at culture.

Exactly.

And I thought it was like, well said, not mean, not like a rugpole, but it was like sometimes

in life, this kind of thing happens where you think something is important.

And it turns out to just be something somebody saw on a billboard or whatever.

Yeah.

I take note that you liked those human moments between Zendaya and Tom Holland just because

it's Chris Hansen here.

As a amateur, transporter of like who rewrote what and credit, credited or uncredited

screenwriters, Justin Kritski's who wrote queer and challengers and is a very much like

a screenwriter, a du jour and like very popular.

It was brought in to do some rewriting work on this screenplay and apparently part, the

part that he worked on the most were the Aunt May talking to Tom in the bedroom and then

Jean later and then some of them, the stuff between, between, between, between Zendaya

and Tom Holland, but like specifically the stuff on Punisher's boat house.

Like what we're going to get to him.

And I thought you could tell that it had a lived in sensitivity that maybe some of the

other stuff did not.

I would say that that was also separate apart from whatever working arrangement everyone

had.

Like that strikes me as incredibly healthy franchise management.

Chris McKenna and Eric Summers, who are the credit writers on all three of the John Watts

Spider-Man trilogy.

To the community too.

Also from the world of community, from comedy writing.

I have the script credit for this movie as well, but they have not even been shy about

like when, like when Daniel Cretten has been interviewed about the movie, he's like, well

Justin and I were working on this on set and Justin was on.

So Justin came on and was the screenwriter on set, which is a much more contemporary

thing to happen in these franchise movies to constantly rewriting.

Again, I don't have no idea about what was cut or what was added or what the working

relationship was like, but that strikes me as very healthy in that you have the people

who carry the DNA of the franchise and of these characters to this point.

But it is intentionally a pivot and it's a largely successful, certainly financially completely

successful pivot into what the next few of these movies might be like.

So having a different tone, toneally different screenwriter on set works.

Are you excited to visit New York City sometime in the next six to 12 months?

Go to a show.

Go to a play.

Yeah.

So, I'm going to go to the show and see, was briefly possessed by Gene Gray and Spiderman

brand new day as a credit for like 85 theater actors.

I thought you were going to say to go to New York and look around for my favorite Chippy

because I'm actually in Glasgow by accident.

Like that, I thought would be.

There was a kind of, I thought there was a nice, like, kind of almost musicality to like

what it was essentially the major kind of villainy of the movie, which was Gene Pritz-Jumping.

That was awesome.

It was cool.

It was also, I feel like, you know, I'm all about me a culpins on this podcast.

Like, we were so close in that every time we talked about this movie and then post trailers,

I was like, well, I just, I don't know what the movie is.

I don't know who the villain is.

Anyway, Sadie thinks clearly playing Jane Gray, but I did not have the creative imagination

to make that jump that she would be the villain.

And maybe that's a kudos to the filmmakers because that was a very bold choice to make

the villain of this highly anticipated movie, not just a new character, not just a new character

played by a young actor, but a new character played by a young actor that is also going

to be the linchpin of an entirely new franchise.

That's a lot on some slim shoulders, but it worked because it was surprising.

And as you said, the way that they visualized her power was unique and visually interesting.

And then also to your other point, like, what happens at the end hints at why this level

of power in someone unpredictable and unreliable is terrifying, as opposed to, I mean, like,

this kid got bitten by a spider, but like, he can't within one with one thought take

out all of Manhattan.

Yeah. And I think that there are the reason why I've always responded to the X-Men as

well as because I do think that to a person all of their powers or curses, you know,

and that's not always been the case with the Avengers kind of era of superheroes that

we've had in the movies, and especially the later period stuff where it became a lot of,

like, I am so I just shoot beams of light out like I'm just like, and you're like,

I don't even know what you're doing.

Like even Scarlet, which her power is what are like, man on the street challenge, what

can she do?

What can she do?

What, you know, can she do?

That's beautiful.

Um, all of the X-Men are like kind of crippled by their own, yeah, their own, their

own specialness.

And it's like, it was cool to see them dramatize Jean early on as being somebody who is sometimes

only have, has like the most loses control over what she's capable of.

And again, I think people around her who are trying to provoke her to be even bigger

or smaller than the, which she actually is.

And I think that when Fiege's MCU has been, it's most successful, has been a sense of cherry

picking the canonical biographical aspects of characters that work best for the most successful

screen version of the character, which is a long way of saying, I think I kind of remembered

vaguely that Jean had a sister, but that is not historically like a foundational part

for this person.

That was really smart.

It was just a smart, they found it, they identified it and they made it better for

the story that they're choosing to tell.

I just felt like we got in and out.

Like, you know, like the sister, uh, uh, uh, rest in power, but like, yeah, it was like,

not a belabored thing.

Now I don't remember if I, I don't think I knew anything about Sarah Gray.

I, I, no, I don't think you did either.

I say that as your friend.

And I'll say to a court of law and I'll say it to these day line cameras.

You never knew her.

And you never visited her.

And that wasn't your burner.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but it, but you know, it was, I'm curious your thoughts on this because you are more

actively not just a movie watcher, but you talk about movies more and, and contemporary

movies.

And I think generally like the, the bill of fair of what movies need to do these days

is just enormous and groaning to accomplish everything, you know, character level, franchise

management, setting up the next one, all that.

So there is no more, there's no more like elegant shape to a three X structure.

Really that said, I was a little bit thrown in the watching of it that the third act of

a Spider-Man movie, which are, I know the sentence saying to say, but are relatively

precious and that it's been five years since the last one was this detour into the backstory

of a different franchise as lead, who is also the villain of this one.

It was a momentum.

I wonder whether or not that's a very comfortable place for everybody who's involved in this

to be because, you know, I, I think there is some disappointment that we've had three

Spider-Man and, you know, I didn't know Spider-Women.

I didn't go back through and, and, and rewatch all those movies.

So I don't know like where they go.

They've obviously introduced some iconic villains.

I mean, the previous trilogies.

Yeah, the previous trilogies.

But he's obviously the best person suited to be the new Tony Stark as it in terms of I

can drop by for a couple of scenes or I can give this person, you know, a great platform

to emerge.

Right.

But I don't know beyond the like Peter MJ stuff.

Yeah.

What?

And with great power comes great responsibility.

Like I don't really know what they want to do with that character.

And it might just be that he is the ultimate locker room presence and the ultimate vibes

guy.

Yes.

And what they can do is basically shadow pilot, back door pilot, the X-Men.

Now what's amazing about that and you, you picked up on is that is kind of the role

that the character has played in the comics for many years.

I mean, there was, it's not just a cartoon that was called like Spider-Man and his amazing

friends.

There was a long running comic in the 80s called Marvel team up.

It was Spider-Man and Blank.

And it was just a chance to like give other characters shine because they would inevitably

hang out with him or cross paths with him.

I thought the greatest success of the movie separate and apart from the charisma of the

leads was it's real knowledge of and celebration of the idea that this character particularly

played by this actor is the heart and soul of this massive corporate project.

Yes.

And that he plays that role both in terms of our connection to it in the real world,

but also within the world, everybody loves him for a reason.

Like the city loves him, Buck and Punisher loves him and that when anyone ever, when

ever anyone plays in his sandbox, they are in his story and servicing the type of story

that he tells, which is basically a selfless and generous and kind story, which is not

always the case for X-Men and Punisher or whatever.

And I agree with other critics, I know the midnight boys are saying this as well, that

of all of the Spider-Man media, which there's been quite a lot, this movie got closest

to the comic book tone of this guy every day being like Wednesday man.

And on a Wednesday, he may fight tombstone and put scorpion back in jail and then also

be late on his rent and then like that is the nature of the character that there is just

this rogue's gallery and this constant like time to make the donuts of being this under

appreciated hero.

Now historically in the comics, he isn't also part of the deep police state with surveillance

cameras on every corner.

But you know, didn't you hear AOC said woke one is over?

You can't you can't get mad in Spider-Man.

Well also Tony Stark's gone.

So he had to partner with Palantir for whomever, you know, for his latest time.

I think he's a much better like basically like Keystone of a world because he's so like

you said, like he's just so engaging and he is so likable.

It's almost like Iron Man is actually like a testament to Downey's charisma.

Yes.

Because Iron Man himself is an alcoholic armstealer.

Yeah.

You know, like, I'm sorry, is that bad?

I was just saying, wow.

It's what realistic.

But it is, let's say it.

Two other things I wanted to talk to you about.

Yeah, I guess one.

One is the whole like I'm turning into a spider plot one of this, which I thought I

have they done that before?

I mean, the comics many times, but only in the last like 20, 30 years and some of that

storyline you may remember from Madam Webb.

I do.

That's it.

Like that.

That's the villain in that iconic piece of cinema.

I think was part of a time they told the story.

We were just like, I am the original Spider-Man and which I am more spider than man.

And there would be many of us.

There was an actor who I almost I don't feel like we should name him because I hope he

has a beautiful career.

You know, I feel like he was there was a lot of ADR in his performance.

That was probably the least successful part of it for me.

I think although pretty cool when he fought the ninjas.

This is why you work on both sides of the aisle.

Yeah, but I wanted to talk about Bernfall.

Yeah, I would just agree with you about like the mutation plot worked as a thematic metaphor

for the story in a way to get Hulk involved and stuff.

Like that is Spider-Man becoming a fit.

Like that is the least interesting.

The least interesting versions of the character for me they have now done both.

One is in which he is like, I shall become a spider and the other one is I shall become

Iron Man in a space suit that also shoots webs.

Yeah.

It's just a dude man.

Yeah.

That's what makes him good.

What makes the punters so good?

Okay.

Let's talk about it.

I was I got to say I was pretty shocked that how much this would became like a two-hander

between Tulemicus and Menelius because the way the movie Menelius, I think it's like

a house.

I think in the movie they're like Menelius.

In the movie they're also like that's coming home soon.

So fair point.

I was thinking sorry.

Emily Wilson walks in and she's like, you know how this looks right?

See where we combine the threads?

We got them web.

Dad's actually not coming home soon.

That's exactly right.

Um, I, when he shows up in the beginning and like he webs his mouth when he's about to

say the F word and they're doing the tank chase or whatever, I was like, oh, they're

doing this frantic friendly neighborhood spider man thing and that might be the extent

of his role in this film.

That was not the case.

So I was pretty surprised.

I would say that it was a good choice of like bench management to be like, we have a

great actor, we have a great character that you might not expect to be the team up,

but in this new, in this brand new day, if you will, these are the sort of, these are

the sort of people that he's dealing with.

So I thought that aspect of it was fun.

I need you to talk me through the burnthal of it because maybe it's just over exposure,

but like I need him.

I love him.

Not as much as you, but I love him.

I need a different, a different color from his paint box.

Well, I think you're probably, did you watch the Punisher like, I sure did.

Film that he made.

Well, the short film that he made with Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Marcus Green, I did watch it.

And it is shocking that that character is also this character, but that's what's cool

about comics.

I agree.

I, it's definitely amusing to imagine people being like, what else can I watch from the

Punisher?

Truly.

Yeah, because I never thought, you know, maybe this is the future that they wanted for

us, but I never expected my 13 year old to say the words I really like the Punisher.

Yeah.

Tell me more about Frank Castle.

Like Phoebe Bridges album.

Please.

Sure.

Yeah.

Like is he in danger of self parity?

I suppose any actor who goes big like that is, am I partially to blame for that?

Possibly.

You know, like I appreciate your willingness to do this.

Is the constant, you know, in vocation of a year's old Baltimore police, you know,

detective that he played, helping matters, probably not, you know, especially because I

would say the percentage of people for whom this is their first encounter with, you know,

big time burn thought.

Uh huh.

I would say it's much more people saw this than saw we on the city despite our efforts.

I agree.

I thought he was delightful in this movie.

I do think it's pretty fucking crazy that the entire film hinges on Punisher nearly

assassinating Jean Grey with a sniper rifle.

Yes.

Blowing out Peter Parker's fucking liver.

Yeah.

And then Jean Grey is just like, breathe with me.

She's like doing the same doctrine you did after you saw House for a season.

Yeah.

Where she's like, you'll be fine.

Now just breathe.

He does, she does do the neo like just start pumping your heart again.

Stuff.

That was pretty vivid.

Um, and he also gets off Scott free.

Yeah.

He's got a visitation privileges at the hospital.

They're like, who could possibly have shot this guy?

I know.

And also who possibly could have shot upwards of 65 people in a series of abandoned warehouses

in the Bronx recently?

Yeah.

So that's not Staten Island that they keep referring to Staten Island's where he lost

his family.

No, Staten Island is, I think people are people you were saying like kudos to people for

knowing VMAX is just what it is.

It was just a runner.

Oh, okay.

It was just a gag about a shared history that these characters had that determined their

dynamic.

Do you think they'll make more stand-alone Spider-Man?

Yes.

With Tom Holland.

Yes.

With Zendaya.

Uh, yeah, because they're married.

So it's probably since like now.

Also, how many days did Zendaya do on this movie versus the Odyssey?

This is a funny thing about all these actors who have got five movies this year is she's

kind of only barely in two of them.

Yes.

She's incredible in a drama.

Did you see the drama?

No, it just hits streaming.

I'm going to watch it.

Uh, she's, she's wonderful in the drama and she's wonderful in you for it.

She's good in everything.

I have no notes.

But yes, I think that Spider-Man brand new day and the Odyssey, while she's good in both,

it seems like she was there for like a couple of weeks.

She was very good in her limited scenes and the show and the show.

The movie pops when they are together and it was the smart play to guarantee that whatever

the next movie is will be as big as this one to delay their reunion.

Reunion.

That said, it is just sort of interesting.

Maybe we're behind on this.

We're just noticing it because it's the biggest movies and the biggest stars.

But we are still carrying, I imagine, I know I am, this sense that like when you go to

do a movie, it's like we've all seen the apocalypse now documentary.

It's just like, I guess I'm going to be in Thailand for six months with a lunatic

changing his mind.

Right.

Like that is not the era of filmmaking we're in anymore.

And instead it's like a series of days in Atlanta and a series of days in London,

or Tunisia or wherever.

And they, and they wrap you out.

And, and certainly stars of that caliber are able to do that.

And it certainly did help that she's, this is the, this is the movies in which they

fell in love and that her husband has complete creative control over.

So I'm sure it wasn't like a hardship.

They enjoy it.

It's pushing big NA on people.

Push pushing.

Yeah.

Once again, these celebrities.

But, but it, I don't know, I did leave the movie being like that was all she did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's fine.

It is a, it, it's a sign of a successful franchise.

I guess that they didn't act like this was going to be their only time making it even

though it may have been.

Because the scene when the three friends are reunited has the same spark that the first

three movies did.

And I am not so jaded that I wasn't like this is a wonderful fun to see these three young

actors playing off each other again.

Yes.

And it, and it was very stingy with that.

So in the future, they're just going to like get to know him again.

I don't know.

I mean, I think the fun of the ending.

And again, I think like we should give credit to Daniel Dustin credit and directed it.

And the screenwriters who wrote it because there, there was heart and intention in it.

Like, despite the things that like the boxes it had to tick and the fight scenes or whatever,

like I did think they thought cleverly about how to bring in May back and what it would

mean and the moments that they did.

And to leave on a moment of, you know, in the red at our era where people are like, well,

no, clearly, Ned remembers now and the spell is broken because Mifisto is too busy, you

know, harvesting iron heart soul to no, it's just like that was a nice moment.

Because either the spell is broken or it's just like a moment of, you're the guy from

the other night and are we fret or whatever it is.

That should be enough.

It is enough.

But how they're going to integrate, it does make me think that those characters likely

won't be in battle world in secret of end your secret words.

You know, the battle will be in battle world.

I would say, I would say with respect, Jacob Babylon is probably available for, in

what I would like to be in battle world.

My guess is no.

Okay.

Do you have any tea?

Do you feel like you've been also silenced on the fact that there is a strong, there's

a strong take on the internet that the Hulk has been dispatched.

We will never see Mark Ruffalo again because he has been too outspoken about Palestine.

I didn't see that take.

I imagine.

He has been silenced.

Won't he be in the movies coming up?

I am fairly sure that he didn't do the press not because of his outspoken political views,

but because he is in Passe Young right now.

Yeah.

Getting eaten alive by mosquitoes.

And that considering again, like how totally fine it is to fly to Glasgow for four days

and be like, oh no, it's happening again.

And then they draw him in the rest of the movie.

You would like me when I'm mad.

I think it's okay.

And I think he'll be on, I think he'll be on battle world, baby.

Let's get to another battle world.

Hot D.

S3 finale.

Great.

Great.

Literally great.

Great.

Great.

Great.

I long said that there's no lock on this door.

You're free to leave Shawshank whenever you want.

No, the only prison I'm in, I'm the jailer.

Trapped in it up here.

Where do I want to start with you with this?

I want to start with you.

Go.

I mean, I want to know.

I think that my appreciation for this show is greatly aided by podcasting with the wonderful

Joanna and Mallory.

You get context.

And so I get context.

I think I also got drawn into the lore more this year.

You sure?

And while I did not read the source material, I've done a lot of, you know, you're like

the guy in college, you know, you're the kicking and screaming.

You don't read the novels.

You read the criticism.

I, I read a lot of like, you know, supplemental texts to aid my understanding of what was going

on.

I don't think that was smart because I think it would have been better to go into this

as I guess you probably did being surprised by outcomes if that such thing were possible.

Well, yes and no.

I mean, there's a level of surprise that is not veering into wonder that actually speaks

to my, I think, deep disinterest in this show and the world that it's attempted to build

in the sense that like this episode opens with Renera getting news of Aegons.

Just back.

Proof of life.

Yeah.

And I was like, is she happy about that or sad?

I did.

Like that was my level of like remembering who cares about it.

When she instantly bursts into tears and starts screaming, where did that convince you

that she was sad?

Um, no, frankly, because it's just like another day in the office.

No, no, no, no.

Get on the grill and cook a little bit here about how you felt about the finale.

But now that we've reached the end of this third season.

I mean, look, I think it's, it's the, it's the, it's the same conversation we had about

the season premiere now in the B side of it in that the show at its, I'm sad to say,

I would have said at its best, but I think the third episode showed that there's a different

version somewhere inside of here that they could have explored ahead.

They've been able to or had they got started on a different creative foot.

But other than that, uh, other than that, like, uh, Zag, I think the show is at its best

a series of dots on a timeline and with some speckle.

And so this was another significant dot.

I don't think it's the sign of a successful show, certainly a mass market show that I can

watch it with admittedly, like the mindset and attitude of a deep casual at this point

and be like half of what's happening this episode could have happened at the midpoint

of the season.

Yeah.

And then the secondary follow up to that is, well, at least if they were stalling, because

all shows manipulate time and audience interest.

I mean, that is the nature of serialized storytelling in this medium.

At least where the diversions worth it are memorable.

And I have to say I don't think they were ultimately.

If you think about how at the beginning of the season, we were pointing out things like,

here's a promising strand.

Here's a promising strand.

And at least in this season, we seem to be able to focus on them.

And one of the promising strands was Kristen Cole and Gwayne being like fog of war friends.

But halfway through the season, Kristen calls like, we'll be real with you.

I'm on a suicide mission dog.

And Gwayne's like, okay, peace.

And then Kristen Cole gets got.

Yeah.

And literally one person is like, hmm, I'm reacting to that news.

And then it's like, oh, Larus and Aegon, we're going to get a road trip for the ages between

these two groups.

And then as soon as there's an army coming, Larus is like, so you're committed to this then.

All right, see ya.

You know, like that feels like watching other people play chess in the park, as opposed

to being on the board with them.

And that's a bummer.

And that's separate apart from my reaction to other specific things that happen in this episode.

It's interesting you bring those two different things up.

They were among my, if not my favorite.

I mean, Larus and Aegon actually was one of my favorite threads of the season.

And then primarily because of the actors though.

I think that the reason why I reacted so strongly to episode three, which is the one that

shot almost entirely from Reneer's POV, or at least her experiential kind of understanding

of what's happening around her, was so refreshing.

Was because it offered the show a, like, different feel in a different tempo in a different

look, but B, it was an editorial decision.

It was like curation of an experience.

Someone is making something.

And I made this point last night to Mal and Joe and I don't think I made it very well.

But I, I feel like this episode could have really benefited from the same kind of like,

honestly, like, pretty cutthroat treatment of Allison in this episode where they're like,

she shows up in the last 30 seconds to be like, I feel a disturbance in the force.

And that's because that character probably was not with any other characters that she

would have a conversation worth hearing about.

But I don't know necessarily that I feel like a lot of the conversations that happen at

various points in this episode had to happen as many times as they did.

I felt like there was a lot of repetition of statement of intent, statement of like allegiance,

whatever it is.

And I think that this gets still a little bit maybe of the source material stuff.

The Game of Thrones series is adapted from a series of novels that are written from

the perspective of very specific characters.

I think that that is one of the great acts of adaptation that I've ever seen, frankly.

I mean, like what they did with those books.

And regardless of how you feel about the end of it, the last season of it, to make you

feel to make, I think, equally people who have never read the books and have no idea what's

going to happen next and people who've been waiting years to see the things that are about

to happen, take place to equally satisfy those two parties is a really amazing act.

But I think part of the reason why a lot of stuff in House the Dragon winds up falling

maybe a little flatter for you than it does for me, but not super 100% successful for

me is because it's being adapted from this very odd source material.

And a lot of the events that have transpired and will transpire are, and then this happened,

and then this happened, and then this happened.

But they're not necessarily evidently about family or about personal transformation or

growth or learning or the things you need, the things that TV shows are made of.

And they went through great lengths to try and establish that by having a younger cast,

play, Reneer and Allyson in the beginning of season one, they went to great lengths to

establish character stakes by putting various people at Harren Hall dreaming their lives

away with Alice and Kristen Kohl's kind of like, you know, road to nowhere.

And like they've tried to do the work.

And I do think when I talk about it with with Mal and Joe, I'm definitely like, oh,

like this is really, there will be moments where like Damon talks to Reneer and Hyvalyrian

and that's when he's trying to encounter to see herself as this God thing.

And like there are good flourishes in this show, but I think there's something very static

and a very kind of like, reportorial.

It's infuriating.

For example, there's a version of Reneer and Emma Darcy's performance is exceptionally

strong during doing a lot of thankless things for the back half of the season.

But there's a version of the character of Reneer who's mission and whose goal is to

honor the legacy of her father who was a good king and trying to be like him, but is frustrated

in that ambition.

The version of the character we have on House of the Dragon is one who's reduced to shouting

Reddit prophecies to everyone to justify all for behavior.

Congratulations.

Not to you, but I just mean like, but that is kind of infuriating.

If you are pointing to a larger canon or a link to the other series in order to justify

behavior that really only makes sense in a history book about like, man, everybody was

crazy.

You're in trouble.

Well, you're speaking to about like what it's lacking in relation to other shows is the

feeling that we need from film entertainment of both emotional investment and the possibility

of surprise.

There are very few Tony Gilroy's, but if you look at what he did with Andor which is also

a story that had an ending that he was writing toward and how when he stepped into the series

development process, he was like, no, we're just not going to do that.

We're not going to do the obvious thing where we start the marble here and then we just

roll it down.

We are going to tell a story about a rebellion and we're going to use this track in ways

that you would never expect to get there and suddenly you care about characters and within

the creation, there are characters that have their own mini arcs that give us some meaning

and sustenance.

My biggest frustration about the show is that it shares this deeply nihilistic worldview

that Game of Thrones ultimately shared that I think thinks it's smart but is honestly

fucking stupid.

Particularly in the case of this show and I'm sorry it's a little bit gloves off because

I found this episode so infuriating.

Ultimately the season may be more infuriating because it gave us evidence of, look, we actually

have a lot of life and spark here in some cast and in some creativity and in some production

design that we can show you when we're allowed to.

It's almost like I'm feeling harsher because of episode three.

If the fundamental belief of the show is that, guess what, both sides are bad.

That's not actually as galaxy brain as you think it is.

That's actually kind of nihilistic and just deeply unsatisfying.

Both sides are bad.

We're not rooting for everyone and death and ruin comes to them all at the end.

What are we watching for?

I'm not saying we need some glimpse of hope that what's his name, not all the other one.

Well maybe he will have a happy ending.

Literally no one gets happy ending because that's still somehow the currency of the land

is that everything sucks.

In the big finale there was a moment when the big crazy guy from the north is banging

his shield and they're all banging their shields.

I was like, well this at least is trying to give us some sense of cultural otherness

or place that these are the warriors who do this thing and the thing that they do has

this effect on people and it's not just running towards people until dragon fire makes them

run the other way.

I was like, that's kind of interesting.

Then it culminated in him just having a few good moments of, I don't want to get Chris

Hansen in here again, but using his sword on Ormond before he laughs at the dragon fire

and gulping them both.

I'm like, man, I really hope James Norton enjoyed his time in Lievesden.

The catering on studio, I can attest to it.

There are some really nice options because otherwise what are we doing?

Again, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

They got a good actor to have a little bit of a prissy personality and do some things.

I mean a season long villain arc is not...

A season long villain arc in rooms until he gets stabbed up the butt.

It's like, okay.

We've heard that way.

There are worse ways to make a living.

There are better ways.

But there are maybe better uses of our time or uses of our actors.

I just found that so all of the carnage and all of the intensity and the violence being

amped up to hide the fact that there's nothing else there so that even that what the season

appeared to be chasing was Damon, who is a one-dimensional monster wandering around the fog of

war, being like, damn, maybe we went too far.

I'm like, I don't believe you.

He's also a girl dead, though.

Okay.

Now can we lean in and talk about what's interesting to me?

The choice to make it about the Targaryens, I think the court of George R. Martin has

proved me wrong.

Like I have sounded this sort of note where I've said, that's not actually the most interesting

thing about...

In my experience, Westros is not the Targaryens.

They're a rival.

They're conquest of the world.

They're various insane kings.

A couple of the good ones.

They're fascination with flying nuclear weapons and their inability to control them.

I think that that was so much more interesting to me as a product of myth and history in

the series, Game of Thrones, than it is in practice in House the Dragon.

I actually think that's probably as good as dragons can look, like on screen.

You know what I mean?

Like in terms of executing something, the reason why this show takes two years to get

on the air is probably because it takes a long time to get the dragons to look as good

as they do and for the battle scene like Templeton to be executed the way it is.

And I hate doing this.

I hate being like, the show should be about Chris and Cole.

But like a show that was about the bastards and broken things beneath those powerful

people is a more interesting story than me then.

The challenge of talking about the show season to season and I imagine it's frustrating

to some of our listeners is that it does all come down to the original sin.

And we were maybe we'll talk about it more detail next week, but I'm so fascinated by

what FX did with the show adults because basically John Landcraft, the head of the network,

was like, I believe in the show, but we screwed up the beginning.

We're going to make a secret new prologue pilot as a Mulligan.

That rarely happens and it certainly couldn't really happen with a show like this.

But it is all stemming from that original decision because there are interesting things here,

but you also have to consider, if you're considering the fake history that George R.

Martin wrote, you also have to consider the history of Warner Bros. Discovery and what

it was before that.

And the failed spin off that they tried to get off the ground and had they needed to have

some dragon content on the air to continue to justify all the other shows that they were

making and the decision to make something that felt safer because it started with where

the other one ended, which is dragons.

Like you begin to have some understanding of that.

Like it is a much harder sell and a much tougher to explain to your executives as well

as your boardroom that like.

So in this history, there's a character named Sir Ulf who likes to drink and what his

decision making swings history and we're going to tell that story.

Like I'm not saying that I could do it.

I'm not saying that any screenwriter alive could have pitched that successfully, let alone

pulled it off.

But that is so interesting and it is the eighth best expressed thing in this finale.

Do you know what I mean?

Like he's a drunk and he's pissed off at everyone but they gave him a nuclear weapon and look

what happens because of it.

Like that is compelling and when you're making the show, I'm sure the people making it

were like, at least we got to do that too in addition to everything else.

But that's not the focus and so it feels really disappointing I think because of that.

I'm glad that there's multiple like if you're going to do Game of Thrones the way they're

doing it, I'm glad that they've chosen to do this and night of the Seven Kingdoms.

And that, you know, I mean, I know that Aegon's conquest is being rumored to like start

shooting next year I think like they sounds like they're very serious about that as a movie.

But I, you know, I still, I remain fascinated by this television experiment to like bring

this stuff to life and the conflict between the source material and the actual stuff on

screen.

What's what's the name of the Zeno's character?

What's your name?

Missaria?

Yeah.

What an arc.

What a legendary arc this season.

Someone finally comes up to our tears in their eyes.

Sarah, Sarah, you must go to Pentos and she's like, no, my place is here for no apparent

reason.

But sometimes I sleep with the queen.

Can we just say in the 14 years that we've podcasted this wacky medium television has taken

us to some outlandish places?

Sure.

Recently we went to Venus where it turns out we shouldn't have landed in Star City.

They, they definitively told us that.

I would say of everywhere we've ever been and everywhere I've had to spend time for television.

I think there is no place worse than Heron Hall.

Like it is borderline insane to me.

Maybe they had the standing sets and they had to amortize them over another season or

something.

But like emerging from such like a lethargic prison box where Matt Smith, a compelling

charismatic actor is just yelling at a tree for half of the season.

Then you just take another character and put him back there and everyone who shows up

there to dream.

Kissing my mom.

No, my brother's here.

I'm like, well, he was, he really was actually there.

Yeah.

Didn't know that at first, but he was there.

Tom Glencarnes having the time of his life in that scene and that I pepped up at that

moment.

I appreciated that scene a lot.

But like, can you, man of the people, bastard and broken thing, can you explain Ellis

Rivers to me?

Can you just, yeah, she's like Melisandre.

So she's a magic lady.

She's a lady who made like a deal.

It's like a lowercase devil like she made.

She made it to her.

Because she tried to, was a keeper kid alive, right?

It didn't work.

No.

But the price she paid for using magic was like she could never leave her in all.

And it's like basically keeping her alive, but she can't leave.

And so she's trying to bring people to her in all, like to have more babies, to have

babies who are going to be powerful.

They're like, correct.

If the institutional wrongs done to her, it's just a bummer.

If you have a friend that won't get their house, I don't know if you have a friend that

won't leave the house, then you've got to have other friends.

You know what I mean?

You can't always go over to their place.

It's true.

You can't do it.

So, where are you?

I'm fine.

I'm, I'm, I was, I was sufficiently entertained by like the Tumbleton battle and like the,

the sort of the things that got checked off the board and what's to come.

Yeah.

It's not coming back until 28, man.

I think I was really worked up and respect to the show

and like a classic.

This pissed me off way.

Way, because I just thought that the pointless

savagery of the end just struck me as very cynical.

Because why?

The Elena Parter, the just the battle.

No, I didn't even care about that.

The butterflies are fleeing because a magic girl

jumped out of a window.

I have no, I do not care about this character.

She was knitting more prophecy.

It's cool.

That's cool.

It's like a new new Supreme drop.

Like Renewer is going to wear that exclusive piece.

Speaking of a Supreme drop, Helena.

Yeah, son.

If you get that.

No, it's just in terms of like,

I don't want to use the word earn too much,

but I'm just like give me some presence or stakes here

other than another piece on this board

to get to where we'll get in 2028.

Yes.

And well, you're like I said.

I'll say just risky business to have a show that feels like

so, so, so claustrophobic and then have a major plot point

be how someone can't leave a place.

Just maybe that's why I'm reacting to this.

Um, we can wrap it up there.

I do want to talk about adults.

It's a second season is coming soon,

but that's an interesting industry story.

Interesting TV star.

So maybe we can file that with like our Thursday roundup

of stuff. Thanks to Kayakai and Sarah for producing us today.

Thanks to you.

Are you, are you, are you,

do you want to go check out the shards or what?

You don't know yet?

Reviled critically.

That makes me want to, that makes me interested.

Uh, doesn't it?

Okay.

No, I mean, I, I,

you've been, you've been actually, while the cat was away,

the mouse mouse was watching television.

Smash Tivo, he watched, you watched a little bit of

sterling point because I mentioned it to you.

Have you, you have not watched the shards?

No, you watched the adults prequel.

Mm-hmm.

You're up on the, unfurious,

very up, all the way up.

Okay.

Fat Joe and Remy Ma all the way up.

Okay.

You love it when I, I know that you, it terms you.

That's a very current reference.

Yeah, that's good.

As opposed to, I sat on the fact that all season,

Tumbleton makes me think of the push a T track,

Brambleton.

I sat on that until the end of this episode.

It's for, it's for the real heads who get to the very,

very, very last second.

And that's all for Kai.

Thanks very much guys.

We'll see you on Thursday.