‘Furious’ Episode 5: Cat Meets Mouse

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Hello, welcome back to the prestige TV podcast,

sweetheart. I'm Dwayna Robinson.

I am Marta Dresnik and I love salad.

From Moni, we missed you.

I missed you. I missed being on the show.

I missed the start of Furious and I am very upset about it.

This is a wonderful show.

Are you furious about it?

No, not quite to that level, but look,

you've already forgotten the rules of yes and on the podcast.

On the contrary, I'm not here to step on women's rage.

Oh, I'm acknowledging the boundary and backing up respectfully.

All right, we're here to cover Furious,

the Hulu show.

Would you could also watch on Disney,

some light family fare on Disney plus if you prefer.

We covered episodes one through four.

Our paliessi salad stepped in for Rob to cover that last week.

That was a fairly chaotic podcast, not just because...

It was a delight for my podcast.

Oh, it's a delight.

Always.

Time with Yasi is always a delight.

Time with Joanna, not organizing her thoughts over the course of four episodes.

Chaotic.

Oh, come on, come on.

We're covering one episode today.

It does simplify things a little bit.

A much clearer sort of thing.

So up through episode five of Furious,

pick a sticker is what it's called if you've not watched up through episode five,

I would recommend you do that because there are several revelations,

twists and turns inside of this episode.

We lost yet another beloved character actor.

And before we get into any of that,

we do some emails, but I want to just sort of off the top.

Rob, you were a jet setting around Europe.

That was.

But still answering emails because work-life balance alludes us all.

Who knows it?

And I was like, Rob, Furious, it's a show we should cover.

And then you had to come back and sort of like cram it because you just got back.

Had to.

But first of all, you were like, if you like the show, I'll like the show.

What a compliment.

Secondly, did you like the show?

Absolutely.

I did.

I mean, I think this is like a pretty remarkable piece of television to be honest.

It is so expertly drawn in terms of the lead characters, especially.

So well balanced.

I just like that they don't make anyone be one thing.

Like everyone is super messy and they're living in a fucked up world with

fucked up systems and making compromises constantly.

I mean, that's our kind of show.

Yeah, absolutely.

Do you support the character, Catherine Grace, killing that shelter lady?

I thought you were going to say just inter-emerders more generally.

Yeah, more generally, sure.

But may specifically shelter lady, that seems to be the one that people are a little

perturbed that I support it.

I don't really, I don't support that.

No, no.

But the other murder.

The dudes who were involved in trafficking children.

Yeah.

See, this backs me into a corner, someone who is famously both anti-murder

and anti-human trafficking.

Who might to support?

Yeah, well, which one are you more anti?

I think I probably look the human trafficking is not a good look.

It's not good for anybody.

And that may sound glib us talking about it in this way.

But I feel like we have some license, given the weird tonality that you and Diasi talked about

in the first four episodes of this show, it is a miracle that they are able to pull off

something this heavy consistently with a grim sense of humor about it while kind of poking at

the characters.

And I think the victims themselves being fleshed out into actual human beings who are not simply

defined as this one thing all the time.

I find it very, like, engrossing, perturbing, but also entertaining.

Like, this show, to me, does not feel like a slog.

And you know, I, again, Diasi and I talked about this,

but I haven't encountered some people who say like, I don't, you know,

I'm not emotionally connected to these characters.

That's not my experience at all with this show.

I am sort of like emotionally all the way in on both sides.

All three of our furious women that are sort of leading this show,

I am emotionally bought into all of them, deeply emotionally bought into Scoom McNairy

and very worried about him constantly.

So this was an odd week for him.

Yeah, don't, don't share this information with Marshall, right?

There's just, there's one thing in life you can simply not do.

Yeah.

And it's till the abuse of guy that the woman he battered is now into in a very different way.

Yeah.

Being knocked around a little bit on her own terms.

What, what was the motivation for sharing?

I simply don't know.

I was, I was so baffled by it.

I was like, did we miss a wink, wink sort of conversation like the one Danny Kelly has

with Nora and the elevator of like, I can't tell you what to do.

My guy.

Yeah.

And it was like, did like Alice somehow engineer this?

Was she pulling a puppet string?

But there's simply no explanation for it.

We, we will go more orderly through the episode.

Here, here's my best assessment that I could possibly make for our guy, Danny Kelly,

not to be confused with the ringer zone Danny Kelly and his bizarre choice to share this

information with Marshall.

Um, which is that, you know, he's like, hey, there's a house, the Jersey Shore, where I definitely

am going to go there and I'm definitely going to survive the season and make it to the house

of the Jersey Shore.

Don't worry about it.

Do you want to come with me and she is sort of like a freak out about it, right?

Yes.

And then he, when he's having that conversation with Marshall, he's like, you know, get a dream

journal, go to therapy, work on yourself.

She still loves you.

So my, like, the line that I was drawing from her turning down seemingly or at least

freaking out about the idea of the trip to the Jersey Shore, I want to come back to her

reaction to that.

And then, um, and then him sort of telling Marshall this stuff, you know, in a way that's

like, get your shit together.

Yeah.

And be worthy of her because I guess the season love with you.

Maybe there's some way to redeem you so she can have what she wants because Danny

Kelly is the most self-sacrificing guy that has ever existed in fiction.

Well, he has Irish so presumably, maybe not presumably, but could be Catholic.

Do you, um, is there more Irish name than Danny Kelly?

There's not.

Okay.

Potato accusations are fair.

Do you, do you like, do I ship it?

No.

I mean, yeah, I do.

I started my turn Marshall.

I'm like, no, I don't.

No, no, no, but do you buy that as sort of like his motivation for that conversation

and why he might make this really weird choice to share this information with him?

Just try to scare him straight because from where I'm sitting at home, there's no, there's

no redemption for Marshall.

But if Danny Kelly is like, well, she's going to be in love with you anyway.

Maybe you can turn your shit around and be the kind of guy who deserves her.

Do you know?

I think Danny Kelly as well as anybody on this show.

Yeah.

We're just going to refer him by his phone because he is a Danny Kelly.

Absolutely.

And C's Alice as somebody whose wires are crossed all the time who understandably given

her circumstances and what she's been through just like cannot separate any of these massive

gravitational forces in her life, especially as they concern Marshall.

And so yeah, it's like acknowledging some of the inevitability of the situation, not

just like, oh, she's still in love with you.

But we learn over the course of these last couple episodes.

I mean, they've had a lifetime of kind of connection and relationship and often on or

whatever it was leading up to all of the stuff that is causing separation and the violence

that he inflicted upon her.

And so it's like, for one, like of all of the characterizations in the show, what they

have done with Danny is something I don't think I've ever seen before, which is like the

very specific, like, full-throated, no questions asked support of a victim of violence.

Yeah.

But so no questions asked.

He literally didn't ask any other questions.

And so like never followed up and never really heard what happened.

I'm so impressed by the deafness of that idea in conjunction with all of this other insane

shit and heavy shit that's happening on this show.

Like they just found like very delicate ways around the edges, even while being a somewhat

knock you over the head show at times to dig into some of this stuff.

So like believe women, but don't actually talk to women is that I think that is that

Danny's approach here.

The idea of like being so respectful of Alice coming to him when she is ready to do it,

that it just creates distance between them in the aftermath of all this.

And so like that, I mean, that's kind of the heartbreaking thing about where they find

themselves is these two people who are in theory the closest connections either of them

have certainly at work.

And yet they're still this kind of gulf they're trying to cross.

And so much so that Danny has given Marshall the like, I guess get your life together,

dude, talk.

Before we get into sort of the episode, slightly beat by beat, I want to hit some emails

we got.

We're not doing a cutesy, john T little email for this show just because I think we're

too far into the serious tone of the show to get cute about it.

Yeah.

So that's the choice we've made.

Maybe a saving grace for us on that.

But a good decision for once.

Also, I did promise our producer Kai that I would plug our life show at the top of the

show.

I did not do that.

But this podcast is going up theoretically on Tuesday, August 11th and on Friday, the

Friday of this week, August 14th, we are doing a live show at the Tel Avars TV Festival.

1115 a.m. on a Friday.

Yeah, that's our time.

It's a curious time for a live show, but that is what we are doing.

It is when we record many podcasts more or less.

Oh, yeah.

So that's our energy.

That is what we will be bringing to the show on Friday.

Our plan right now is to do some sort of best of the year so far, but competitive draft

style, ringer style, unleash Rob's worst friendship instinct style, kind of live show.

You are who you are, Rob.

I don't know how to take that.

I mean, lean into the reputation perhaps.

I just want to pick the good things in the draft that people get upset for some reason.

I thought that's what we were doing here.

Come see us.

What do you want to say about that?

You do have to buy a ticket to Tel Avars.

They have day passes that you can buy.

So if you want to buy that, you should, you know, come to the whole festival.

Why not?

Yes.

But on Friday, not only are we doing the live show, but later that day, I am hosting a

my so-called life reunion panel that I am very, very excited about.

So there's just a lot of great stuff going a lot of great programming going on if you're

a fan of television, which I presume if you listen to this podcast you are anything

else you want to say about the live show.

Well, there's all that great programming, but foremost, we are there.

And there will be a show.

There will be best ofs.

There will be singing.

There will be dancing.

Joanna will be a quadruple threat on stage.

I don't know what the fourth thread is yet, but we're going to figure it out.

Okay.

Murderous drafting.

That's my opinion.

That is a talent of yours as well.

Nives out.

Nives out for drafting.

Okay.

So that is what we were doing this Friday.

You know, come hang out.

Come see us.

Please.

And it is our plan to cover Furious week to week for the rest of the season.

So that is something we were doing as well.

We're going to make email check in our listener, Meg on the Danny Kelly front.

Our listener, Meg says, I don't know what to do with this observation, but the show has

a plague of what I call girl with two first name syndrome.

Catherine Grace.

Danny Kelly.

Ed George Oliver Charles.

Yeah.

Just something, something to watch.

I don't think that bodes well for Danny Kelly.

I find those are the people who are getting knocked off.

I mean, fingers crossed, Ed George.

I'm not a fan.

Megan and a number of our listeners wrote in with the theory that the young woman that

I believe her name is Elena that Catherine was trying to help in the motel who, you know,

is theoretically is a bell sister.

Yes.

A strong theory that that is actually her daughter.

Oh.

That the timing works out that that could have been the kid that she in this episode we

find gave up.

Yeah.

So any thoughts about that?

I honestly hadn't even put that together timeline wise.

It does make sense.

And they could also be somewhat distant siblings in the pecking order, you know, not unlike

the way that Alison, her own sister are kind of like separated by age and didn't really

grow up together.

So I could see it, but I'm kind of operating on face that they are actually sisters for

right now.

Okay.

Our listener Ray wrote in to say, I think that the show is great strength so far, showing

how exhausting it is to be sexualized and are victimized in every single space by nearly

everyone.

Catherine is sexualized everywhere she goes.

And because it's the only thing she's ever been told she's good at, she uses it to

manipulate and then naturally resents those who fall for it regardless of gender.

I do worry for sweetie Steve Ray.

That's the actor who's playing Alden who's fantastic in this episode.

Save for now, thankfully.

Yes.

I was so worried when they walked into the house that he was going to be dead.

But like that, the fact that you were worried, that's what I'm saying is incredibly powerful.

Yeah.

I don't know how that little girl completely that to me was the moment where the show like

really clicked into place.

I'm so one is really good.

But when you get to the girls night with Mira in episode two, simply the idea that this

girl could actually be in danger is something that the vast majority of TV shows just cannot

pull off.

They can't make the threat feel real.

And that's why she had to kill that woman from the shelter and stick her in the bushes.

Again, pro murder joke.

It's going to just the murderous Joanna Robinson really coming on strong.

But I do think that inside of this episode, when we watch Alice, obviously they're drawing

lines between Nora and Alice and Catherine and their various flavors of rage and all

of that.

But Alice inside of this episode when she lures Marshall to her house and puts on this

whole act for him and uses language that is very similar to things that Catherine Grace

said to previous her victims, but also her abusers.

Yeah.

The whole thing about owning me.

Yeah.

Exactly right.

That's the moment.

So I think that this idea of if you're going to treat me like this frail thing and then

I'm going to pretend to be the frail thing that you've decided to treat me as and then

that is going to be the thing that sort of bites you is definitely something this show

was interested in.

But interesting to watch Alice use these tactics.

I mean, this is a tale is old is time with any single sort of FBI serial killer show where

it's just sort of like the agent and the killer and what DNA they have in common and where

are they moving towards each other or away from each other in terms of their behavior.

And I think that feeds into this last theme when we got from Catherine as far as I know

not Catherine Grace.

Thank goodness.

I would love to hear your thoughts on the role of law enforcement and all of the moral

dilemmas that the show is presenting.

FBI is still law enforcement.

Yes, Alice is in the company more, but she still works within the system that upholds

like this whole problem.

If there is a twist at the end of the show, I hope it's about how the system is corrupt

and there's no way to dismantle the master's house with the master's tools.

Alice works really hard throughout the season and because she's brilliant, she gets evidence,

this is like a prediction that Catherine's making.

Alice works really hard throughout the season because she's brilliant, she gets evidence

still because Jay Easton has an in with the FBI or the NYPD, he gets to walk three free.

So like Catherine is wondering if the end of the season is not, everything is tied up

with a bow and justice is served, but just a further condemnation of the system that we're

all operating in.

I mean, we are five episodes in.

There is not a bow big enough in the world to tie all this together.

This is just not going to be a neat ending.

I don't think the show has any interest in telling a neat story, which is what makes it so

watchable to this point.

Yeah.

Clearly, this is a lot of the focus of Ed George right now as a character is sort of representing

this larger, protecting the interests of power sort of fixture within the office and

threatening nor to do it, which by extension, threatens Alice in her position.

Like the chain of command there and the way everyone is getting squeezed, I think is

really compelling TV.

A perfect punchable face from this guy.

Yeah.

And I also love that he doesn't seem stupid.

I think that there are versions of this character and other shows where it's like the guy who's

protecting power is so drenched himself in power that he doesn't have to be sort of a smart

operator in order to get things done because he just has his hands on all the levers.

And so he doesn't put like the way in which he and Nora talk to each other in the elevator

when he sort of lets her know what he has on her and how he can discredit her.

I thought that was just really satisfying to have worthy adversary for someone like Nora

who is a very smart person who is tangled up in her, you know, gets in her own way as

do most of these characters.

Well, especially someone who is smart because he is evolved.

Like not evolved in a sense that he has or says all the right things or does all the

right things, but he's a political animal adapted.

Yes.

I guess survival of the fittest kind of way, except in this case, it's like he grew more

scales and is more slimy and like knows how to frame things in just the appropriate

way to keep his job and survive the like, it sounds like pretty grim and brutal upbringing

of his own time in the office and then what he did to people like Nora in the first

place and how brutal he was as a boss.

And now he's the mental health guy.

You know, no, no, he's just looking up everyone's best interests.

Oh my God, disgusting.

Um, prestige TV is Spotify.com if you want to email us about that or anything else.

About your bosses who resemble Ed George.

Correct.

And the scales that they have grown over the years.

Um, episode five, pick a sticker written by Dan LeFronk and directed by Destiny, like

Araga.

Um, I thought this was a fantastic episode.

Yes.

Um, you know, the show.

I'm not really feeling like distinct individual flavors between the episodes, you know,

like I can really see a director's flourish in this one or that kind of thing.

It doesn't really feel like that kind of show.

It feels just more like a consistent steady hand on the on the tiller of the storytelling.

I think some of that too is we're, we're kind of equally weighted between these two leads

stories for the most part and the trajectories they're on.

It's like you already have these two tracks.

You don't need to get too cute in the way you kind of show them visually week to week

to make it feel like widow's Bay or whatever.

Right.

I think the best I could say for it is sort of instead of the one where X does what, you

know, it's sort of like the Campbell Scott episode, you know what I mean?

The Rob Delaney.

The one where Rob Delaney does.

The one where Campbell Scott does, you know, there is like a creep of the week.

Yeah.

I'm here that is great work for character actors.

If you were willing to subject yourself to that, if you're willing to be like the pedophile

or pedophile adjacent person, you know, there's good work to be done.

All these guys lined up for the show and I applaud them.

And they've been great.

They happen really good.

So we open with Catherine and Alden, you know, in bed together.

And this follow up of the end of last week's episode when she was talking about how she

can feel her fingertips, you know, this sort of trauma response that she had been navigating

where she's like, I can't feel anything.

Isn't that interesting?

And then, you know, Alden professors is loved to her.

And my interpretation, you know, I'll see now we're discussing this, but my interpretation

was like, that was a healing moment for there was something like traumatized inside of

her that was somewhat healed so that she could sort of feel the end of her fingertips

again.

And then by the end of this episode, when she sees what's on that how has what how has

on the computer, she's back into her sort of, you know, when she's trying to mess with

a sticker or she's back into the space where she can feel things.

Yeah.

Uh, Catherine Grace, a murderer, but also I feel emotionally devastated for her that

she is like one step forward in healing and then immediately sort of two steps back into

trauma space.

That's what I kind of found it alarming earlier when you were saying you were hearing

from people who felt like they couldn't emotionally connect with these two characters.

Like I'm I'm locked in lockstep with both of them despite the fact that you may not

be able to get into their exact headspace, but how could you not at least try to wrap

your mind around what they've been through and what that would do to a person?

Absolutely.

And I love your read on it.

And specifically that sort of like regression back into losing feeling in her fingers again.

Like I think a lot of it comes from the idea that there is a kind of satisfaction that

can come from this sort of vengeance.

And I may be a kind of closure in a way if you can kill everyone who's in the photo

or on the list or whatever, you know, whatever your victim set ends up being if you're

someone like Catherine, but like that kind of resolution doesn't heal you.

Like you have to do something else to do that.

And it probably starts with having real healthy human connections.

Like I mean, Alden is that seemingly the healthiest human connection she has with anyone

else on this show, even then it's still quite artificial and still quite fake.

And I think one of the miracles of what little a little pedagogy is doing is like the flicker

of like, is that a real thing that she's hiding within this larger speech or larger deception?

Like there are these moments that are like blink and you'll miss them.

Where you kind of buy what she's selling.

And I have no idea what's real and what's not, but that's kind of the magic of this performance.

I do think when she tells how I just don't want him to be alone, right, that just felt

so honest, like incredibly true.

And I don't know.

You're just like, okay, no, these two crazy kids cannot make it work.

But is there a way in which this connection could be something healthy?

I mean, something Yasi and I were talking about is sort of like, where do you want this

character, Catherine Grace to end at the end of the season?

Should she die and pursue to her actual goal?

Should she wind up in prison?

Should she get to go to Zewat now and like get off, got free?

Like what's the ending for her?

And I can't tell what exactly yet what show we're watching here.

And I like that.

It's sort of similar to what you're talking about in terms of like, is old and going to

be okay?

Yes.

Is this girl mirror going to be okay?

Like is Catherine Grace going to be okay?

Not in an okay that I think she's done nothing wrong and doesn't deserve any consequences

for her actions.

But like, I don't know.

I get this way.

Even with something like, did you ever see Red Dragon or read Red Dragon?

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So like in Red Dragon, her Refin's plays a formal serial killer.

But there's this just like moment of true connection between him and Emily Watson's

character.

And it's like for a moment, you're just sort of like, what could have been if they had,

if he had found this kind of empathy or connection with someone before he did all this stuff that

is sort of like, uncombat from a bowl.

You know what I mean?

And so that's sort of my feeling when I see these two in bed and she's just sort of like

gently running her fingertips on his arm and it's just sort of this like beautiful

connective moment that I don't know if I want to say she doesn't, does or doesn't

deserve it.

But I just found myself like drawn into it.

Yes.

Well, especially, I mean, this is why no show that I have seen basically has ever been

able to resist the, you're not so different.

You and I kind of structures like you want those moments of humanity, even in the murderers,

even in the people doing crazy crimes or horrible things to people.

Like you want to feel that pull.

And it's so tempting to have.

And it's so structurally satisfying.

And it's like it's what draws you into those stories in a way that can sustain having

us spend half a season with a character like that where they're not just murder, they're

not just murdering people.

But you also hear in this episode and over the last couple like the parallels in Alice's

life, right?

Like there are parallel lines to a certain point between Alice and Catherine and Isabelle

basically.

And they go off in opposite directions, but like Alice was a teenage girl who was pregnant

at one time too and her life could have unraveled in a totally different direction.

And she ended up here.

I'm going to be honest here.

It doesn't seem great either in very different ways.

Like she's got a lot going on and a lot she's trying to work through, but needless to

say, she's lived an entirely different life than these other two girls have.

Would you say it's almost like a fractured broken mirror left on the wall of a

universe?

A first apartment.

But a mirror you fractured yourself because you were seeking out something kind of resembling

the very violence that puts you into this mental space to begin with.

It's not always a subtle show, but I really like it.

It's not.

But here's the thing, like it's not subtle.

Yeah.

But one thing I always appreciate with a show like this is like this show to me is all

about survival mechanisms, right?

It's like whether you have done horrible things, right?

Or have had horrible things done to you.

How do you pick up and move on?

Like how do you take the next step back into the real world?

And every character is dealing with some version of that.

And so yeah, it's not like everyone is on these like incredibly distinct journeys.

Like they're all interwoven.

They're all overlapping.

They're messy and really good and I think interesting ways.

Yeah.

But it's at least kind of cohesive in the story that it's trying to tell.

And like to me, the very real human responses to a lot of this stuff.

There's also of course this interesting skin of a Greek tragedy that the show is painted

on top of all this.

And in that like, you know, we start with the story of Medusa.

Sure.

And episode one, we get the sort of various strains of fury inside of Greek storytelling,

Greek thinking.

And then I've been thinking a lot about, you know, the room that Nora goes into to watch

these horrible videos.

And what she tells Alice is like, that's your award, right?

Yeah.

You get access to that.

You get to go into hell and hang out in hell and see how you do if that's a place you

spend time with.

Like see how you cope.

And if you don't wind up drinking a straight rye whiskey out of your family or something

like that at the end of the day.

So like, yeah.

And this idea of Nora as this sort of, I love this Nora character.

That's an amazing character.

That's a really good character, incredible performance.

But like, this idea of like the avenging angel, but the cost of just sort of even spending

any time being an avenging angel inside of this.

And then also the compromise is, like the compromise is she made to even stay here to make

any kind of difference.

Is she had to at one point along the way and we still don't know all the details of it,

but she had to compromise on this Jane Doe case.

Yeah.

In order to just even stay, it seems like in order to even just stay inside of the department,

you know?

So I think, yeah, the marriage just keeps one term.

They really do.

I mean, so many characters are making that sort of compromise.

Yueniyasi touched on that last week too with the teenage girl who was also like complicit

in the trafficking of other girls.

It's like everyone is getting pulled into these systems and making compromises to protect

themselves.

Yeah.

One thing I loved about this episode is it felt like Alice was almost making the inverted

choice where her, I mean, the bargain she has struck or the approach she has chosen to

take is like, can you swap?

Follow your pain and your pride to basically like engage in this sexual or faux sexual situation

with this guy who abused you for the sake of like getting your professional career back

under your feet again.

Like can you get this case back and maybe some kind of power back if you're willing to

swallow all this other stuff?

Right.

When Nore is like, this is the thing in your way.

You can clear this out of the way.

Then you can get back to doing what you want to do.

And she does it in like the most fucked up way possible.

And she's like, I'm like, really good.

When she pulls that bag out, I guess we're not, let's not worry about going exactly in

chronological order.

When she pulls the bag out, Fiona Apple kicks in.

Yeah.

That's how you know.

That's how you know.

And to watch her open the bag and for those of us watching at home to begin to process

what it is she's looking at.

And she's looking at artifacts of her old life and you're wondering, why did she keep,

you know, there's a party that's sort of like, why did she keep this, why did she keep

this clothing that you bought for her?

These photographs of them as teenagers and all the sorts of like that.

And for that to happen and just the way that the photographs are stacked for you to see

them so young, for you to see them actually quite recently.

Like this photo was clearly taken on the set of this show.

Like they are, look the same age they are.

They have the same hair that they have.

Like this is a recent in their, in these characters lives photograph.

But there's more flash so you know it's point and click early 2000's photography.

But you can see the, the, the photos of her bruised and battered face sort of like in the

stack, the way that the photos are being held.

It's not like a jump scare that you like come across it.

It's there and just slowly being uncovered.

So the music doesn't change.

It's still Fiona like, you know, but her result, like she gets sort of lost in this sort

of my interpretation of the way that Emmy Rossum was playing this was like, she gets lost

in this sort of slight soft nostalgia for who she was in the more innocent times of that

relationship and the safety that she thought that she found there.

And then seeing those photos of her own face puts this deal back in her spine in terms

of like what she has to now do.

To entrap Marshall.

If that's how you choose to find it.

And I think what she does only really works because of that soft nostalgia part.

Like because there is still a part of her that is holding on to like you said, the version

of her that used to exist, the version of relationships used to have like who she thought

Marshall was before he revealed to he was all of those things.

Like there is a connection between them.

And there is something that she is tapping into that is still there.

It's just like covered up with so much scar tissue because of everything else.

And it's like she needs all of that to be Catherine level manipulative in this setting.

Right.

It's like using sex as a weapon to get what you want.

Like we've seen Catherine do it many times throughout the course of the season already

to say nothing of what she's had to do before to survive.

It's like you kind of have to have that other part to tap into it for exactly this sort

of thing.

What I love about what both Catherine does and what Alice does here is that they are relying

upon the weaknesses inside of these men in order to accomplish the gambit here.

So like for example, with Rob Delaney's character, a perfect asshole.

But for her to if he had just actually kicked her out when he first sort of thinks about

like, okay, you got to go.

Nice morning, you got to go.

I don't know that he would have necessarily survived, but like he would have set himself

up.

But she's like, no, no, I'll stay here.

I'll do whatever you know, she sort of like lays out this temptation in front of him

that he can't resist to this sort of like I own you my power over you all the sort

of stuff like that.

Just sort of like walks himself into this trap.

And similarly even tries to think that he doesn't want it.

And then he's like staring at the security camera work, you know.

You know, and then the guy winds up being Campbell Scott's like son the way.

I mean, that whole sequence where she's just sort of like parked herself up at the table

and taking fake zoom calls is just like incredible.

But she's just sort of like relying on, you know, again, all of the characters inside

of the show are quite smart.

And so the cunning that she uses and the way in which she knows how to manipulate people

and find out where their weaknesses are and where they're sort of like were too liberal

to throw this woman out of our house sort of.

She folded that boy up into some tinfish.

She just sealed him right up.

It was nothing.

Tinfish boy.

What did you think about tinfish coming back in another show so soon?

Fitting and alarming.

Yeah.

But it's kind of in this like guys, you know, but you I mean look, yuppie liberals of a

certain kind do love tinfish.

It happened in its moment in the last couple of years.

But yeah, what do you think about the trap that Alice Lee's for Marshall here?

The seduction is not just her and sort of like Emmy Rossum said in an interview with

Golderby that it was like her idea to put like his hands on his throat and stuff like

that.

And then and then how the alcohol is sort of like woven into that, this sort of like

breaking of his sobriety resolve at the same time.

I mean, this is excruciating to watch and so well done for exactly those reasons.

I think there's a couple of different elements.

One, just the idea of Alice as basically a compulsive liar is something we've established

all throughout the season.

You give this girl any chance to tell a version of her backstory that is not real and she

will do it for the sake of getting like one inch closer to the things that she wants.

But then there's also this part of it where I mean, frankly, just the idea that a TV

show in 2026 would have a victim of sexual, like of domestic violence to do so her abuser

using her sexuality that it's willing to do that.

Like the balls on this show, frankly, the three dimensionality of these characters.

Like, I just think a lot of shows fall into what can be a very understandable trap when

they delve into things like domestic violence of they try to get so seriously.

And it's very well meaning I think in a lot of cases where it's like, this is what

this character becomes.

It's very precious.

It's very precious.

They are confined to the space.

Everything they do in their life is through the lens of this thing.

And part of what I appreciate about this sequence and the fact that she would even do this

in the first place is that being assaulted doesn't change you from being a human who wants

other things.

Right.

There's a lot of stuff going on in Alice's head.

I wouldn't even dare to know what's going on up there.

But she wants to know who this murderer is.

She wants to get back on this case.

She wants resolution.

She wants to figure out what happened to these other girls and women.

She wants to know who, which assholes and power are implicated in this.

She wants to go back to work.

And this is the thing standing in her way and her way of dealing with it is not super healthy.

But it is a thing that she wants.

I like that even the damaged part of her is willing to subject herself to something

like this for the sake of a weird bizarre outcome.

They're like, I would never have expected and just makes for good TV.

People similarly with Catherine Grace, the fact that she's like in order to, I mean,

she could just meet these guys and shoot them in the street.

She could.

That's not what she's looking to do.

She's looking to torment them.

And part of the torment is, I mean, she has sex with them.

And she makes them believe that she wants to and that she cares about them and all these

other things in order to make the vengeance feel like tastes that much more delicious

for her.

In this Gold Derby interview, this is what Amy Rossum said about sort of,

a lot of what you're saying about the compulsive liar aspect of Alice and then also the

kernels of truth that are exist inside its interaction she has with Marshall, right?

So she says, I think that Alice is a shapeshifter.

It's almost like she's acting a lot of the time, but we get to see her vulnerability and

her truth when we're alone with her.

So that she was saying that to underline the section of the episode where we watch her

get ready.

And that's like the most truthful Alice because known else is observing her.

It's just us at her and the broken mirror.

She goes on to say, but a lot like what I think acting is, she's often using the truth

to make a trick work or commitment to a truth to make a trick work.

And so we see her shapeshift into a softer, younger version here.

Her clothes are different.

Her approach is different.

I want her voice timber to be different and settler and softer.

There are some things that she's saying that are true.

She's a little bit drunk.

She did have a terrible day at work.

She's wearing these old clothes.

She's really bad at decorating the house, but she's saying them in a way that lures

him in and won't make him suspect that her ultimate goal is to waterboard him with whiskey,

to tempt him to lure him in and to compromise his sobriety.

I have two logistical questions about this episode.

One is do the cops show up that quickly even if it's Nozy neighbor Margaret who's calling

in the I saw drunk guy outside.

You already know that they don't.

Also Margaret has called the police many times.

So many times.

The police station is like, okay, this woman again, like, take your time.

Okay.

Number two, have you ever in your life seen a wanted poster of someone?

No, and multiple people are seeing it and calling it in and registered.

Yeah, here's the thing.

I was like, where would I even find one?

My issue is in part the wanted poster.

Yeah.

And in part Alice's recognition at the end of this episode in a distorted reflection that

the woman in front of her is in fact the girl she has seen at age 14 in a photo.

I simply could not do it, but I'm not an FBI agent.

I'm not a detective of her caliber.

Yeah, I'm paying a lot of attention to things, Rob.

That's deeply interesting.

Yeah, the water poster really got me for both Alden.

Yeah.

When Alden has it, but then also the other care workers, I saw it, I called it in.

And I was just like, where does one find like, is it like the next door app?

Is that what we're looking on?

There's also like crime.

Like when I lived in Oakland, I lived with a guy who would check the crime reporting app

like all the time.

And I was like, how is this helping you enjoy your life here in Oakland, California?

It's not keeping you safer.

It's not doing anything.

But perhaps that is like a place where I wanted to make them up.

But other than that, I don't.

Facebook, I don't know where one finds a wanted poster.

On a Bolton board at the post office?

Right.

I don't know what the local coffee shop.

A bodega, perhaps?

I don't know.

That was, those were just some logistical questions I had about communication of.

You know what, plot needs must.

People needed to know that she was a wanted fugitive.

And so, you know, the word is getting out.

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Should we talk about Campbell Scott?

How?

I would love to.

Roger Dodger himself.

OK.

So, the idea of him being adjacent to a kind of pickup artistry, if not womanizing,

if not who knows what's worse than that and Roger Dodger's life.

I really missed you Rob because I was just about to ask you what role you most associate

with Campbell Scott.

Your answer is Roger Dodger.

It is.

A movie that most people as easily as this podcast have not seen, but it is Jesse Eisenberg

and Campbell Scott, early Jesse Eisenberg.

And it is about a young man who learns from his uncle how to pick up women.

That's not to.

They learn from each other along the way.

Honestly, I think it would hold up.

I think it's very knowing about how slimy it is.

Not your touch.

It's such a while full.

Well, what's yours?

What's your touch point?

Singles, where are you?

Singles is a good one.

The Spanish prisoner is one I really love.

I think seeing like Hope Davis and Campbell Scott who were just sort of like twin icons

of a certain era of late 90s indie film is really fun.

Low here we are in the mucket in the trenches from our sort of whimsy era of independent

cinema.

But Roger Dodger is a great answer and I'm proud of you for it.

Thank you very much.

But Campbell Scott, I'm used to liking Campbell Scott.

And so obviously the show is leveraging that with a number of actors that they've chosen

to use here.

And for him to plead his case as someone who's on her side, and I've got my laptop here,

and I've got information.

And we can take him down together.

And I've been, he's a piece of shit and I've been wanting to take him down.

And not only that, but also when she's talking about getting married and she gets the wedding

dress out and he's sort of like, yes, ending her and supporting her.

As he sums.

And she turns her back and he's like, I'm going to fucking die here.

I thought all of that was really good.

It's an amazing scene.

I also think I love this layer of Catherine too, where I mean, again, the psychoanalysis,

I think is a dangerous slippery slope to get into with her, where I'm like why she does

the things that she does.

But it does seem like she wants in the arrested development way that you and Yossi were talking

about with her, like the approval or the support of these men at times.

Like she does kind of want him to say that she looks beautiful in the wedding dress.

And she, and she does want like, I love that her like signature move is like pillow talk.

Like she drugs these guys into oblivion and then lays one inch from their face.

And it has like this real unguarded moment of intimacy with them in which they cannot

move.

They are subject to whatever she wants to say.

And it's like, there is a, it like, look, it's not tenderness.

I don't know what it is.

But like there is something that she is clearly looking for from these men beyond just killing

them, although like the killing them seems pretty satisfying too.

Well, I do think it's interesting that like we have not been taken inside the actions

of this horrible photograph that we've seen.

And obviously there are like horrible abuses there.

But I guess based off of my unfortunate time with Jeffrey Epstein, documentaries that

I watched when we were covering industry, there is this story that a lot of these abusers

tell themselves that they are helping these young women.

We are giving them things they didn't have access to.

Yeah, like money, opportunity, this is, this is, this was the Glenn Maxwell, Jeffrey

Epstein log line was like, we are giving them opportunity.

You're giving them clothing.

They couldn't have job opportunities.

They couldn't have, you know, we are helping them.

Actually, they're horribly abusing them.

But just sort of like the way in which it's wrapped up in this pretensive care.

And so I think the way in which she is dishing that pretensive care back to them while

destroying them at the same time, I think is really interesting.

I guess my question for you is like, do you think that is a jab or is that an honest return

of some of that care?

Like, you know, like all of her Charles giving her the glass of water, and she brings

him the glass of water, is that a poke at him for knowing, like he should have known

how horrible a guy he was?

Or is it like in this weird fucked up way I was in a hell hole and you did give me a glass

of water?

It's kind of more interesting if it's the latter.

Yeah.

I think if, if, if her emotions around it are more complex than that.

Yes.

And, and what is even more complex about someone like Hal is for him to tell the story

to himself that he was not one of the abusers.

Yeah.

Um, that he wasn't there until later, that he was protecting him.

There's like, there's a clue dropped here that we don't really know what he's talking

about.

He says I was protecting her, protecting her from him.

Right.

Pronouns.

We don't know what we're talking about.

But presumably that is probably the biggest smoking gun pointing to the Isabel's daughter

versus sister theory, right?

Right.

Of like the her and question would be Isabel's daughter with Jay Eston maybe, and protecting

her from him.

Oh, yeah.

Right.

I think that would be kind of where my mind would go.

But there's a lot of tangles going on here.

That's, that's a great interpretation, I think.

But, but this added wrinkle also of Catherine basically admitting that she doesn't remember

what I, you know, and so she's on this vengeance tree, but she's also actually trying to find

out because she's like, I don't, I don't know who else is on my list.

Yeah.

Because I don't, I know who was in this photo.

Yep.

I can find them.

Yeah.

But I don't know who else is on the list because I don't know what actually happened.

And so, you know, something I was saying to Yasi, which I guess now is not true, but I

was just sort of like, I like that the point of this show is not what happened because

we kind of know what happened.

But now I guess we kind of don't know exactly what happened.

I guess my question is what the alarm bells it, it kicks off for me is if Catherine in

her various trauma responses can't remember what happened.

Yeah.

Is she somehow in whatever degree complicit in what happened?

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like has she blocked it because something happened that she feels responsible for one way or another?

Or is the reason Isabel got tangled up in any of this to begin with somehow because

of her?

Like is there a chain of events by which she feels rightly or wrongly responsible for

what happened?

I think feels very possible.

I love the fuzziness of this and her trying to put the pieces together as much as anybody.

And yeah, it could be a pure trauma response like dissociative, like just like blocking out

what happened that night because it was so awful and such a terrible moment.

It could be we're told repeatedly these girls are just like pumped full of drugs in these

moments.

And so maybe she's just literally out of her senses.

And this was one of those moments where I wasn't sure how much to trust the earnestness

of what she was saying.

But when she was saying like her theory is like she was literally strangled so much that

her memory is bad now.

Right.

And so it's like there's so many ways in which this person has just been put through

the ringer of life by these men that it could be any of them or all of them all at once.

And also the when she tells the Hello Kitty story and she's like, I did this and she's

like actually or was that Isabel the way in which she was sort of like blurred their experiences

together.

And you know, the sort of idea of like I was in love with her.

She let me look at her eye fucking sort of thing.

So this idea of like and the, you know, the woman who gave this backstory information

about them in the previous episode, how she was just sort of like there was something.

Some weird going on there.

Something weird before we got here.

There was something weird going on.

So like this idea of like coveting someone, blurring your personality or your experiences

with them and all of that, all of that was already kind of in the mix before we got to

this degree of damage for someone like Catherine Grace.

Especially with how little we know of Isabel otherwise.

Like most of what we know is through the lens of either police reports that, I mean,

let me stop you from the freeze framing.

Don't freeze frame and read the police reports.

Like they are among the most heinous things you will read in terms of like the injuries

that Isabel suffered before dying.

And I believe in episode four, there was an allusion to the fact that like her face was

unrecognizable or lots of, lots of horrible stuff happening.

But most of what we hear from about Isabel is from a police report or Catherine's memory

or like this sister slash daughter's memory or this like home, like group home worker.

All kind of second and third hand and fuzzy and 15 years ago.

It's like we really don't know a lot about her story yet.

And so we're just starting to get these bits and pieces to connect the dots of who Isabel

was in the first place.

Yeah, it's a great point.

Anything else you want to talk about that we have not gotten to?

On the Hello Kitty front, this is a sharp turn.

I apologize to you and to everyone else.

How aware are you of the fact that Hello Kitty is not a cat?

For some reason, very.

Oh, see, she's a girl.

Yes.

For those not in the know.

Hello Kitty is a human girl.

I don't know if she's wearing a cat mask.

I don't know if she did like a nip tuck style like make me look like a cat.

Hunger game sort of a lot of plastic surgery happening.

I don't know what happened, but she has, I believe herself, an actual cat, which feels

fucked up.

Look, it's not my area.

I'm more of a more of a like a like botz maroo guy personally for kind of diving.

But I just the second this came up, it was all I could think about was like, man, I forgot

that Hello Kitty is not a cat.

And it's fucked up that nobody's talking about, including Adrian Marado, who loves Hello

Kitty.

Do you think he knows that Hello Kitty is not a cat, but actually, if you're on.

I think if he did, it would have broken him.

While we're here in left turn, Lynn, let's do it.

I want to go back to the scene, but I didn't really earlier because it didn't feel appropriate.

Okay.

But you've set the tone.

Thank you.

Arlister Mo wrote it to say, this email is about the revelation that one can make tuna

salad with more ingredients than just tuna and mayo.

I've heard a salary being added, of course, but Rob's total dismay near horror over

hearing the simplicity of Joe's recipe for tuna salad.

As me curious, this is left or from Cape Fear.

I honestly did not know there was another way to make it.

What does Rob add to it?

Relish, mustard, spices.

I mean, I feel like you simply don't really eat tuna salad.

The answer is don't do it.

Yeah.

Because you're of your aunt, I want better of all of you.

All of you out there and certainly a few, Joe, like I just want better for you than

tuna salad.

Tuna salad is great.

And here's the thing, if you're going to eat tuna salad and it's just tuna and mayo

for God's sake, season your food, like you've got to put something in there.

I'm personally like for a cockay in there.

That's you were getting somewhere?

Yeah.

But also don't do it.

Like just there are other foods.

Tuna salad is delicious.

Oh, absolutely not.

No fish salad, no white fish salad, no fish salad at all.

What about like a nice wild salad, like tuna on a salad?

I still wouldn't.

You're kind of anti tuna, especially anything that's coming out of a can or a pouch or

involves cheese?

No.

That's the so elitist of you.

Some of us survived in college off of 75% can of tuna.

Eat a 99 cent pot pie.

You know, eat a cup of noodles.

Like there are alternatives that I'm not, look, I'm not saying they're healthy, but they

taste better than that.

Anything else?

So we haven't gotten too to the salad or otherwise.

I like you.

And I think like most people after episode four, very dismayed at the trajectory of Nora's

character, like her kind of recoiling, trying to cover her own ass, like buying into the

security of her career over advancing the case in episode four, very tough stuff.

But I think Alice reals her back in a little bit and kind of gets her more invested in

proceeding with the case.

Yeah.

I think she does it in a very clever way too that speaks to Alice's like situational awareness

and understanding of people of like her appeal to Nora is not do the right thing or

like open this case back up for some moral reason.

It's like dangling the puzzle piece of the not hospital hospital bracelet of like this

thing that she knows Nora was interested in in the case she did care about.

You almost got there.

Like you almost got it.

And I think we can, I think we can crack it together.

That being what brings Nora back in, I found to be like again, just like a great turn

for a great character in the show.

I agree.

Where are you on my guy Frank Choi?

Are you a Choi boy?

First of all, no one is a Choi boy.

The miracle of Frank Choi is like, he's such a wannabe guys guy and also the most like

unapologetic brown nose I've ever seen to a degree that literally everyone hates him.

It's remarkable.

Honestly incredible work by him to alienate literally everyone in your workplace.

Should we consider Choi boys a G.

I'm like, only if you are the aforementioned Choi boy.

I'm my bitch.

It simply wouldn't be me, but I love what Rob being is doing.

I think he's so funny.

It's so funny.

It's such a great presence to have in the office.

We're again, like everything else is ultra serious all the time.

And here's just this fucking idea.

Everyone hates.

Yeah.

When I said everyone is smart, I forgot Frank Choi not smart.

Everyone else pretty smart.

But I think an important presence on a show like this where if you are having people

who it's like this guy beat up Alice, these super rich men are involved in trafficking

young girls.

Like people are truly awful.

Yes.

And you need someone who's many, many, many, many rungs down who's just like this guy sucks.

Yeah.

You know, like this guy sucks in a real basic way.

He doesn't make my skin crawl.

He just sucks all the time.

And by comparison, I love watching it.

Yeah.

I'm also I'm a Yara fan.

I don't know.

Yara is just is here to be like pregnant kind of over right.

But all about mental health and is quite helpful inside of the department.

I mean, she seems like a joy to have in class.

Yeah.

Joy to have in the workplace.

Just a bright light for everyone who knows her.

All right.

Anything else?

The only other thing I wanted to circle back to is that moment where Danny asks Alice to

come with him to New Jersey of all places as one does.

But specifically, Alice is responsible.

Coming down on Cantuna and the Jersey Shore.

I don't think that's a controversial take.

I think there are some nice spots on the Jersey Shore.

Even that you're couching it within couch.

You're like, there is this little spot where the sun shines just right and that place

would be okay to stand for a moment is what you just said about the Jersey Shore.

It could be nice.

It could be nice.

The point here isn't necessarily that it's nice.

He even says it's going to be freezing.

It's probably going to be terrible.

But you know what it's mean.

Me and Montauk, you know, it's not here.

What did you make of Alice's response to this though where I like she seems.

It's touched in the moment.

In like her immediate response, like I think the gesture means something to her.

She also seems like deeply wounded, understandably.

And then goes home and screams and grounds herself and goes immediately back to work.

But like, what do you think she is going through in that moment?

She did the classic game.

Adam Sharp objects screaming to a piece of clothing move.

Love it.

Well, Claire Danes isn't around either.

So somebody's got to do it.

Maybe this is cheating to use somebody at the actor said, but Emmy Rossum said in that

Golderby interview that she said when she was talking about Marshall and what he's in

the way of, one of the things she said was in the way of her relationship with Danny.

Yeah.

Like just sort of like her unresolved issues around Marshall.

Or so it's not that.

And I think this is, I already thought this was like abundantly clear.

But like, it's not that she doesn't have feelings for Danny.

It's not like they are clearly.

She says that what he does is get scared women to fall in love with him.

Like it's a little autobiographical.

Clearly in love with each other.

Like clearly.

And I would love for those crazy kids to make it work, honestly.

But like the Marshall stuff is so unresolved and so in the way that she can't, it's sort

of like she can't feel her fingertips.

Like she can't connect with him because of this thing that's still lingering here.

And what I like about to go back to the sort of like why she lays his trap for Marshall

and you're talking, you were talking about the motivations here.

Her motivation is I want to get back on the case.

And it's not vengeance for what was done to her because she did not officially report

him when all of this happened in the first place, right?

She didn't set about to destroy his career or we can like dig into like why she didn't

report him.

But like, seems like she just tried to run away as far as she could.

She was just like, I don't want to be part of it.

And like he's the one who's like now showing up on, on her case, you know, so like,

um, so it's not that she was just sort of like, I'm going to get him for what he did

to me to your point.

It's like, I want to be able to do this work and also maybe go to the Jersey Shore with

Scoot McNair.

And I think she deserves it.

I think we all want to go to the Jersey Shore with Scoot McNair anyway.

This Marshall was Scoot McNair.

Yes, I do.

He plays so many dirt bags.

It's true.

It's nice for him to be like, it's still the dirt part of the dirt bag, but like he has

a heart of gold.

You can kind of smell him.

He's smell the cigarettes on him.

He can certainly can.

Um, maybe that's like sort of the nice like reverse of this other casting we've been

talking about in terms of like casting these sort of beloved figures as these complete

scumbags.

And then we're like, and we're going to take Scoot and make him just like the Swedish

nicest guy except I am very scared.

Not only.

And I said this to Yasi, I'm going to say it to you too.

Just in case the show is listening and they can change the ending if this is not the

ending already.

I'm worried about him dying.

Sure.

But more than that, I'm worried about him disappointing me.

Don't disappoint me, Danny Kelly.

Please don't do that.

Either Danny Kelly.

Either the ringer Danny Kelly.

The ringer Danny Kelly has never disappointed a soul and certainly never you are I know

that I'm an absolute saint.

I'll print some of my men.

Well, let me ask you this question.

While we're talking our beloved characters who are doing heinous things on this show,

yeah.

Campbell Scott clearly not a good guy.

The proximity to all of this human trafficking and having sex with underage girls horrible.

Don't do it.

Should not defend himself in any context.

His wife, Janelle Maloney, our beloved Dona Mosses here, at least my beloved Dona

Mosses here.

It's Janelle Maloney innocent.

How much does she know and when did she know it?

That's what I'm worried about.

If she just thinks she's married to a lawyer for rich guys, you're putting Dona on the

crosshairs.

I don't know.

You wouldn't stop a red lights to take your revenge on Dona.

I'm asking proximity to proximity to power.

How many rings out do you have to go out before people start getting in?

I mentioned this, but I do think this is why like Hope Davis and Janelle Maloney are like

really good castes in these very wasp-with-love white women who are daughter of or wife of these

creepy men.

These very specific types of women.

I don't know.

I'm curious.

Why is Hope Davis in the show?

She has more to do.

She has more to do.

She can't just be shown up for an occasional interrogation.

No.

That's not it.

No.

Anything else.

I think that's it.

I think we did it.

We really did.

At least for this week, there's so much more to happen on this show though.

It's true.

We've got five more episodes to go.

Actually, I lied to you.

There is one more thing.

Okay.

Look, my frees framing in the police files was not a good time for me.

My frees framing in Alden's room though.

Quite fruitful.

In particular, our guys got a blue velvet poster just hanging right there which might

be a cry for help to a certain audience, but I happened to respect.

Bad, listen, some bad religion.

Also, I think I like a predator poster.

I'm trying to remember what language it's in.

It's not in English.

Maybe Japanese predator poster.

I like to monitor setup.

Great.

Look, seems like he's doing some day trading.

He's doing quite well.

I think he's got a lot of money.

He's making it work.

Yeah.

I'm interested to see what happens.

Is he done with Catherine or is he going to be protective of her in some way?

I mean, he did literally just learn that her name was Catherine.

Is there real roller coaster of emotion for him between?

Will you be my girlfriend?

Oh, wait, your name is not Vanessa.

It's Catherine.

Oh, wait.

Will you marry me?

Oh, wait.

Is that your uncle?

Is that your uncle?

I lie.

I said, there's only three more episodes.

It's an eight episode season.

So only three more episodes to go.

Is Alden going to be okay?

Is Danny Kelly going to disappoint me?

Is Jayeest going to get got?

Yeah.

I'm mostly invested in him getting what's coming to him.

Well, he's going to get got one way or the other.

Well, I get true.

He does not have long for this world.

The question is can Catherine beat cancer to the punch?

I would like him to get got by something other than natural causes.

That would be my preference.

Feels more narrative satisfying, but maybe this is not a narrowly satisfying show in the

ways that we might want.

Anything else you want to talk about before we go?

I'm just so excited to be podcasting about the show.

I'm so glad we're doing furious.

Thank you for teeing it up.

Thank you to you and Yasi for starting us off with a bang.

I'm having a great time.

One last thing I'll say, this is one last quote from that gold derby interview, which

is just something I didn't really fully understand.

When she was talking about why I mean, we're also talking about why Alice can't shower.

It's not just the sort of like the trauma of the way in which Marshall used to like pull

her out of the shower in order to abuse her, but she says she can't get into the shower

and only because she can't shower, because she can't take the gun into the shower and

be vulnerable for a second.

Yes.

I have like the gun and like needing it on her person at all times.

Yeah.

I'm just going to end on that off note.

Thank you to Kai Grady.

Thank you to Jacob Grudet.

Thank you to both safety and vulnerability and those that can somehow have both at once.

Thanks to you for coming back from vacation.

Thank you, Joe.

I know you're going back on vacation quite soon.

And thanks to everyone who come, preemptively, who comes to our live show on Friday.

Yes.

We'll be very excited to see you there.

And we'll see you soon.

Bye.