'House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 8 Deep Dive
2026-08-12 03:18:00 • 3:05:04
Greetings and welcome to House of R. A Ring of R's podcast on the Ring of R's podcast
network.
I'm Hillary Rubin.
Joining me today, half cooked but still fit to rule or so she thinks.
It's Joanna Robinson.
Half cooked is generous I would say.
I think we're fully cooked here on House of R.
I got half cooked, we're fully cooked.
Joe, we are here of course to dive deep profoundly into the treason's at Tumble 10, the season
three finale.
Unbelievable of House of the Dragon and we will dive into all of that right after this.
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All right, as usual, that was a crock of shit.
We're not diving right into it.
We're going to do programming reminders first.
Here they are.
Listen, we usually look ahead for programming reminders, but we're going to look back for
a second because we want to make sure you know, in addition to doing talk the thrones
live on Sunday night with CR, which was a blast.
Check that out if you haven't yet.
We had the pleasure of chatting with House of the Dragon, Showrunner and Co-Creator Ryan
Condal.
He joined us for nearly an hour to talk about the season finale, season three, the series
to date, adapting this text.
That dropped on Monday.
That's already up waiting for you, so check that out if you haven't yet.
Here's what's coming next.
Lanterns premiere.
Can't wait.
Genuinely.
Everyone around the office is buzzing about the first episode of Lanterns.
I thought it was delightful.
I know.
And I was just talking to the night boys about it.
I'm excited to talk about it.
We will probably also have some, we think, X-Men news, Marvel news because who knows?
But we're going to D23.
The plan is to try to go to D23, so I've never been.
That'll be a first for me, not a first for you, but my bait in D23 voyage.
So hopefully we'll have some exciting Marvel news to catch up on as well at the top and
next week.
And then we're going to be on the road, the back half and next week because we're going
to Baltimore.
We are going to England.
Half of on the road.
Now we're going to Baltimore.
No, though I will say it looks like it's going to be a two to two and a half hour drive
on Friday and we're okay.
We're driving on the deal.
So hopefully I will make it to this panel.
Yeah, I'll save a scene for you.
Well, being Baltimore for House of Arnit at Camden Yards.
And it's a thrill.
It's so exciting.
I just want everyone to really brace for a wonderful live event and then disappointment
with my first pitch and then a wonderful watch along.
It's going to be peaks in valleys.
I feel like the collective well wishes of the bad babies like clap of you believe in
fairies like you know, just boo, you know, you don't need it.
You're going to crush it.
I'm excited.
So I'm going to crush something.
Perhaps a bone or ligament as I attempt to shoulder blade.
Yeah, that's definitely possible.
But if you have procured tickets to join us there, check your inbox.
You have instructions, arrival instructions from the Orioles, 430 arrival at the warehouse,
450 live pod and then again, you get to watch the game with us hang out.
So it's going to be a blast.
We can't wait.
Joanna, how can everybody follow along?
What a great question.
You know, follow us to Baltimore, but also, but not in a creepy way, like in a cool chill
way.
Follow us in a cool way.
It'll really normal.
Chill, fine, fine way.
Why don't you just subscribe to the podcast.
That's a, that's a thought.
Great idea.
Well, why don't you do that?
Yeah.
At House of R pod, that's right.
On various social media platforms, you can watch full episodes, including the podcasting
from the dark as we talk to Ryan Condal on YouTube or Spotify.
That's right.
HobbitsandDragon to gmail.com.
I do have a few quick emails, things to get to before we go forward.
Is that all right with you, Mallory?
Let's do it.
Okay.
We got a lot of questions from people about Buffy season five and whether or not we'll
be covering it any time soon.
I just wanted to announce that Mallory has begun her Buffy season five watch that does
not guarantee when we will be covering it.
Just wanted to let you know, just in case we thought we had abandoned the project, we
have not.
Mallory has begun her season five watch.
Yeah.
We got a lot going on.
We will figure out when we can do it.
I feel like we can safely say September.
No question.
I don't know if late August is realistic, given that it's August 11th currently, and I
watch four episodes.
Okay.
Count on it.
Count on it around the, let's say around football kick off if you're excited for some
fun.
Unnituriously, unbusy time for you.
Sometime in September.
That's a pledge.
That's a pledge from me to you.
God dammit.
I listen to Laura.
I wanted to share that for people going through House of the Dragon with Draw over the
next couple of years.
Yes.
No free ads, but the calm app, which I have used in the past to try to go to sleep, has
some stories from using House of the Dragon actors.
So Gail Rankin does like a witchy walk through Heron Hall, Steve Tusson, Harry Collette,
PSA event, like the Westeros inspired tales to help you fall asleep.
So if you want to listen to some of your fave actors who are either dead or alive on House
of the Dragon, you can listen to them on the calm app.
Also, our listener Rachel, dispatch from the UK about the Mad King play.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of people are buzzing about it.
I am avoiding all, even though it's like a story we know.
I'm avoiding spoilers because I really show specific spoilers.
I'm really hoping to see it.
That's right.
When I'm in the UK, it's supposed to be closed by the time I get to the UK, but we heard
from our listener Rachel, who was at the Dirty Duck pub, great, who met an American guy
who was the quote agent for the tour in North America.
This is a breaking news from our listener because an American tour is not been announced
for the Mad King stage show, which tells a story.
Just in case folks didn't know, the Mad King stage show tells a story of among other things
the Turnian Heron Hall, some key backstory for Game of Thrones.
It's supposed to be incredible.
There's cool puppetry and Santa more.
George R. Martin went.
They had a big press night.
Our parko was there, etc.
So they're doing a seven week run at StarFront on Aven.
That's what's happening right now.
I probably won't get to see that, but it's supposed to be transferring to the West End.
I can maybe see that depending how long that takes.
Then it's supposed to tour in the US.
That's when you and I will definitely go and see it, I think.
I say I'm manifesting it.
Absolutely.
I mean, I do think we should see it in the United Kingdom.
Okay, let's go see the West End.
You throw it out there.
Let's go to Baltimore next week and just hop the power flight from the StarFront on
Aven.
Remember when we did the 2026, is that what you're this is?
Is it 2026?
Goodness gracious.
2026, Cypetracked with Robin Sean.
And talked about going to Oxford.
And Sean was like, Oxford?
Yeah.
I get served at social clip a lot for some reason.
And then he was like, you two are very special people.
Still committed to getting to Jolly Old England together.
We'll be there.
God damn it.
Last night at least.
Yeah, tell me.
Tyler.
Uncle is B. I believe it's how you pronounce your last name, Tyler.
Your lovely wife, Katie.
And all of your friends emailed Hobbits and Dragons independently.
The best.
To request a happy birthday message to Tyler.
Happy birthday, Tyler.
So Tyler from Katie and all of your pals, I birthday, Tyler.
Should we sing?
No.
Happy birthday.
Happy name, day, Tyler.
Geez.
Happy birthday, Tyler.
Yeah.
And thanks for listening.
And spreading the good word about how it's the bar.
Love it.
That's it.
Until more later.
But that's it for now.
That's the podcast we're done.
Spoiler warning.
Yeah.
For today's hot D.C.'s and three finale discussion.
It's the same one as always.
If it happened in this episode of television, we're going to talk about it.
It's going to come up.
We're going to beat by beat.
It's going to be a season if it happened in the show ever in prior seasons, if it's ever
happened in an episode of Game of Thrones television, it could come up today.
Book nuggets, sprinkled, you know, throughout as context, as reference points, anything in
the future of the text that will be discussed separately at the end of the podcast in a separate
book spoiler, look ahead, section, you'll get a little warning.
Anything before we get on the tapestry after, Helena goes out the window, goes in the book
spoiler section.
There's a lot of open fabric there.
Yeah.
Season four fabric and beyond, you know, is going to take up the needle.
That's a great question.
I got a lot of emails from really starting being like, that's not needle point.
Okay.
It's something else.
I just think that in the middle, there's a thread in the year of Widow's Bay and Ruth,
it's all needle point and it might be wrong.
It might have been cross stitch unclear.
It might be wrong.
It might be wrong.
But it's a broad term.
We're working on our text style, our terminology.
And we support all of it.
Exactly.
Exactly.
If you'd like to present us with a needle point for while at it's the studio.
Oh, absolutely.
We have a couple.
We have our crest.
We do.
We have the needle point set home.
We have those at home.
We have a broad term studio.
But we do have those.
Should add them to the new home offices.
Yeah.
We have our shiny new set ups.
We should.
Got to redo the entire room.
Yeah.
A lot to think about.
It really is.
Should we have the podcast?
Yes.
Yes.
We asked Roddy if he was still prepared to die for his queens.
And he said, can't fucking wait.
It means it's time to pod.
Let's get to the opening snapshot.
Season 3 Episode 8.
Where's the time, Gondranna?
My goodness, where's it gone?
This was directed by Andre Perack, who had previously directed episode 6 of Season 2.
And then this is co-written by showrunner, co-creator Ryan Condol, and T. Neville, who
wrote the fifth episode of Season 2.
Ryan has written or co-written more than we have time to list quite a bit.
For anyone who didn't watch, Tauron and Ida's, and his djourges, either former
or current assistant.
T.
Yeah.
That's that is correct.
Overall impressions, Joanna, not only of this finale, but now that we've reached the
end of Season 3 of Season 3.
Yeah.
I would rank this season above Season 2 for doing a classic ranking.
I would say Season 1's still my favorite.
It's hard to beat my guy, Viserys.
Patty is just so incredible.
But I thought this season was an improvement over some of the challenges of Season 2.
And then there's a lot to like and talk about in this finale, but it wasn't my favorite
finale of all time.
But I think overall this season was like a real uptick for the show.
Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
I enjoyed the finale.
I thought it was very entertaining and engaging.
I have certainly a couple questions and things we'll talk through on certain scenes.
But overall, I was very entertained and thought it was a good blend of the grand sweeping
tumultant spectacle, but still rooted very much in character beats and character decisions,
which is always the blend that we want in a battle episode.
I enjoyed the season quite a bit.
Overall, I agree.
I think definitely we're on the upswing after Season 2, which again, Season 2 had episodes
in it that we loved.
But overall, on balance, start to finish this season felt more consistent.
It had some incredible high points, something like, I mean, the beginning of this season was
really great.
Just really, really great episodes two and three were, I thought tremendous.
I know you loved, really loved four.
And that was when we started to get so much time with our beloved greens.
I thought it twists still.
I think one through four, which is the screener pack that they sent out initially for folks
for press and stuff like that, are just like among the strongest where they've done.
And then it's not like the entire back half was like not great.
It's just sort of like that opening chunk was so good.
I thought it was really interesting.
And then the House of Dragons built, Condal said, and thank you again to Ryan for all
of his generous time on the pod.
But like a wonderful conversation.
Well, it said sort of like it could take some time for a TV show to basically teach you
how to make it.
And he was like, I really feel like we hit our stride in season three.
You know, like the whole production team just feels like they all know what they're doing.
They're working as a well-eal machine.
And they're already sort of talking about like the two-year process to season four.
So it's like they feel like much sturdier this year, I think, than they have felt in
previous years.
You know, there were some behind the scenes changes for people who were working on the
show and stuff like that.
So I feel really confident about how this is all going to end.
We'll talk in this spoiler section about like what's to come and some questions about
maybe where it all ends.
But yeah.
But I feel like season four is going to be like a solid wrap up to this show.
Yeah.
I'm pretty confident about season four as well.
I'm sad that we only have one season left and eight episodes left.
But I would anticipate season four being pretty riveting.
And I think one thing in addition to the number of key moments and key seismic events and
just the dance of the dragons, the canon that we know a weight, which is obviously exciting
and something to look forward to, one of the things that this season made me feel really
confident in it is, you know, we talked about this a lot on Sunday with Chris just like
how much we all loved spending time with Laris and Egon or Gawain and Darren and Ormond.
The moments of surprising investments and characters that we weren't anticipating caring
about quite that much have been one of the real pleasant surprises of this stretch of
the series.
And then like, Reneira, you know, it's interesting to think that we are so much more drawn to
those other scenes because it's just a kind of, you know, I think, frankly, like a charm,
comedic aspect to it and some like surprise element.
But the Reneira descent that we watched across this season, we talked very much early in
the season about how so many Throen fans were like, okay, are we going to get the time
to really understand what happens here in a way that we didn't with Danny?
And that has nothing to do with what comes in the future just with what we're watching
inside of these events.
And I have found myself really riveted watching Reneira's journey into where we find Reneira
in this finale, this despotic, desperate state, making these decisions and so to have people
in each side of the war who we care this much about and want to spend time with and those
moments that are really rooted in theme and character arc knowing we're going to be able
to pair that with Dragon War is pretty exciting and pretty cool.
Obviously, it's always hard to wait a couple years for House of the Dragon to return.
Great news.
We get a nine to seven Kingdom season two next year.
We don't know when yet, but we're not that far away.
And we'll be in the UK next week for the Maddening UK before you know it.
So, you know, just being back, I'm feeling a lot of excitement about just being back in
Westeros and feeling that rekindling.
I think it's a great time to be a Westeros fan.
And I think that like to your point, it's funny, it's funny because, you know, when I get
out, when I think about who gets to be fun this season versus not fun, I know.
It's interesting, but I do think that especially earlier in the season, I do think even Emma
Darcy, who does have a really strong sense of comedic timing, got to be like fun.
Funniest moment of the season, I think, was.
Oh, absolutely not.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a Ranera versus on three, which is like a real showcase for like all the flavors
that Emma Darcy's capable of as Ranera.
So yeah, like tremendous performance.
Yeah, really, really good stuff.
Bard slash classics corner.
Hit me.
Okay.
That's so many for this episode that I tried to be as particular as possible.
A couple listeners, Calvin Morgan said in this passage from Henry the fourth part one,
as it pertains to our guy, Ormond, right?
Being there a certain Lord, neat and trimly dressed, fresh as a bridegroom as chin, new
reaped, showed like a stubble land at harvest home.
He was perfumed like a milliner and twixed his finger and his thumb.
He held a pontsit box, which ever and a non he gave his nose and took twig and as the
soldiers bore dead bodies by, he called them untought naves unmannerly to bring a slavently
unhandsome corpse, but twigs the wind and his nobility.
You know, a perfume lord who's like these golpses smell bad and are getting in the way
my enjoyment.
The instant hit of the perfume bobble from Ormond after discovering all of just wonderful
stuff sensational.
A number of listeners sent in this line from McBeth, Unsex Me Here and fill me from the
crown to the toe, top full of direst cruelty, make thick my blood, stop up the access and
passage to remorse.
Lady McBeth, Unsex Me Here, Barry Raniera, you know, a lot of behind the scenes conversations
have been about sort of Raniera at war with her gender this season and sort of this decision
to take on this masculine or at least a sexual aspect with the with the armor here at
the end.
Have you have you seen any of the theories floating around?
It hasn't been confirmed by the show, but have you seen any of the theories floating around
that this might be Viseña's armor?
I feel like they would have said if it had been, but it's just sort of like, you know,
we saw Aegon in the conquerors armor.
Yeah.
And, you know, would this set of armor be laying around waiting for Raniera or would they
have to repurpose something that existed already?
Do you know what I mean?
And would have been great.
I mean, I think that would be great.
It feels to me unlikely that the show would not have that's what I'm saying.
Yeah, I would have said it.
Because they were doing given the number of direct or indirect illusions to a reference
to the surface any over the years, but that would be great.
Yeah.
That would be, and obviously quite alarming, you know.
King from King John from our listener, William, about how it's too late for anyone to make
peace in this dragon war.
The Dauphin says, your breath first kindled the dead coal of wars between this Chastai's
kingdom and myself and brought it in matter that should feed this fire.
And now it is far too huge to be blown out with that same weak wind which incandled it.
So for Coralus to be like, hey, can we solve this with a marriage pact or perhaps slightly
redrawing the borders?
Yeah.
And David's like, nope, yeah.
Straggin' more, baby.
Yeah.
Our listener, Aiden, who started Bard Corner, wrote in with something from Edepus, right?
I liked this description.
Aiden says, obviously everyone knows Edepus is the guy who fucks his mom.
But Sophocles plays about more than that.
It's about an incredibly powerful man, a king in fact, who devotes every inch of his
power to avoiding his own fate.
Yet every action he takes only brings him closer to his inevitable ruin.
And among other things, his mommy's content, quoting the seamal.
Okay.
Rainier had a similar arc to Edepus the King this season, and so tonight I'll leave you
with this finalized of the play as translated by Robert Fagels, which I can just imagine
Roddy the Ruins screaming delight as he and Orman burn.
Full of thieves, my countryman look on Edepus.
He solved the famous riddle with his brilliance.
He rose to power, a man beyond all power.
Who could be hold his greatness without envy?
Now what a black sea of terror has overwhelmed him.
Now as we keep our watch and wait the final day, count no man happy till he dies free of pain
at last.
I liked this idea of Rainier as someone, you know, a classic Greek self-fulfilling prophecy
sort of thing of Rainier just just every move she makes this season brings her inevitably
closer to.
We talk about this a lot with Nolan, this idea of being the architect of your own destruction.
And like, as much as I'm happy to blame Allison for the plan of like, let's declare Aegon
dead had Rainier and not declared Aegon dead.
Then he would not be experiencing this quote miracle resurrection moment inside of, you
know, she made him the chosen one.
She made him the chosen one.
And like all of her other decisions that she made, she was trying to avoid being named
a tyrant or, you know, all these other things.
Every step she took to avoid where she landed screaming about the prophecy in a suit of
armor and the septens blood on her hands in this finale.
I just love thinking about going back and rewatching this season and watching every step take
her closer and closer to this sort of inevitable spot.
Yeah, I think this is one of George's favorite things sometimes literally when an awareness
of a prophecy or dream or vision is in play, but just more broadly with, you know, the
choice and consequence aspect.
There's something, you know, to discuss when we get to Helena later that I think is really
interesting about like, free will specifically through the lens of a dreamer who does actually
have access to something that she's trying to understand.
But for a character who is desperate to get that clarity like Rainier is and seeking it
everywhere and carrying burdens and moving constantly toward, you know, that line in this
episode, the fucking Viserys like he put me here.
There's so much I'm excited to hit as we go through some of the scenes today.
I was really struck, you know, Rainier as a character always a very precise language and
tone.
And so when there's any kind of shift in like the carriage scene with the litter scene
with Jaffrey, the real flat delivery and tone of voice, very notable, but in like the
scenes with thyseptin, Bala in particular, there's a lot of, I think deliberately from
the writers of the episode passive voice, blame casting other people.
So where is their culpability even as to your point?
There is an active hand and it is your own marching you toward this place.
And what I love about this is like you and I agree that that that it's quite blurry
here.
Like when she says, hey, it's Coralus's fault he was out there in the field.
And I like, uh-huh.
And when she's like, hey, it's a Viserys' fault that I wasn't prepared set up for success
for.
Pretty much agree.
No question.
But are there other active decisions that Rainier is making that she needs to own?
It's all true.
Everyone's fucking up all the time in house of the dragon.
Last but not least, this comes from Fia Sabin, right?
I feel like I always mispronounced her last name.
I looked it up.
I believe it's Sabin.
Like Nick Sabin?
Sure.
Champion's never sleep.
Sometimes I want to say Sabin, but I think it's Sabin.
Fia Sabin.
Helena herself.
An interview with the rap said that Helena's line about life being nothing more than being
not dead.
Yeah.
Comes from George Bernan-Chaw's St. Joan, the play St. Joan.
Quote.
Fia's interview from the rap.
Joan gives his incredible speech to people imprisoning her when she says, like, quote,
you think life is not being stone dead, but there's more to life because I might as
well be not alive if I can't hear the church bells and the lambs and the wind and the
trees.
And that's what living is to me.
And Fia went on to talk about how being robbed of the connection to nature is like taking,
disconnecting Helena from her religion and without her connection to her religion.
And again, Alice and Helena would make quite a pair of these naturalistic witches.
Without that connection to her idea of spirituality, she's dying anyway.
Right.
And when we first see her in this episode, and she's gray, essentially, like, it's just
devastating.
And that is Bard's Lash Classics Corner from our incredible listeners.
We got a really beautiful email from a listener, Will, who was just talking about, like, how
much he enjoys thinking about these stories across, like, various, you know, just to think
about the themes that Shakespeare was chasing and the themes that George is chasing and
the themes that Fockner chases and the theme, you know, like, all of these great thinkers
and writers and how we revisit these same stories again and again, but how much we appreciate
them by being able to look at them from all these different voices.
And I say yes.
Thank you to our listeners.
You guys really enhanced this whole experience for me.
So shout out to bad babies now and always.
All right.
It's time for the deep dive.
Let's head to the bells of the Pleasure.
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Okay.
We are mostly going to go chronologically today.
Every so often there will be a little bit that's pulled up or down depending.
But got to note, the opening credits this week, obviously tapestries on our mind.
The addition of Eggman and Sunfire was fucking sick.
The fire on the tapestries.
Oh my God.
That was burned.
That just looked amazing.
I thought it was really cool to compare, to think about that and then think about the
watery waves of the thread that opened the season when we were coming off of the gullet.
Also, Kirk and Fahem wrong.
So the Reneer and her and her, you know, Cotary, which was, took a lot of the opening credits
this season of just sort of like Reneer of Flankton either side by her court, let's
say, backed by a golden dragon, right?
And then when we see Eggman on the tapestry in this fiery thing, it's like a red dragon.
Well, I thought that was just Sunfire's pink membranes, the pink wing membrane, but it
was sure.
But okay, but also the burn.
Putting that aside, what do you think of the golden dragon being behind Reneer?
I think it's just supposed to be Syrax.
Who's golden?
You think it's more than that?
I don't know.
I mean, Syrax is like not golden.
Syrax is yellowish.
I guess we have to get kind of simplistic in our tapestry work.
I think it's Syrax, but sometimes a dragon is just a dragon, Joanna.
You know, at the end of the day, when there are so many different colors and the dragon
designs are so unique, there's similar colors for the two.
Dragon's associated with the two characters seeking to rule, though obviously there are
other characters seeking to rule too.
Sunfire looks sick on the tapestry.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, that looks great.
Very cool.
Will the tapestry continue in season four without Joanna?
Maybe not.
I mean, will be tied if they go back to sort of the blood sort of turning through the
blood.
That was on my mind again, given the image of, you know, all the blood coming down from
her nearer.
Coming down from her nearer, and the tapestry at the end of the episode.
It is back to that kind of like the bloody rot of this family.
I still don't.
Ryan Connell email us.
He doesn't have any more.
Um, I still don't have a better answer for what is on the tapestry than the one we presented
to Ryan.
So I don't know what to say about that.
Same.
Okay.
Same.
I keep looking at it saying to myself, what am I missing?
I will say this.
So it's Renira on the throne.
This is what she looks like, you know, when she unfurls part of the tapestry.
It's Renira on the throne.
It's flames and dragons and hands reaching out behind her.
So like carnage, the war, the dance behind her.
Red thread coming down from her head and all of her onto the ground.
So was it cuts from the throes?
That was that was my guess.
But also sort of laced in bodice fashion across.
So then is it more like thread?
So then is it more like puppetry?
Almost like, are you like, hey, do you want to stop over thinking tapestry?
Maybe.
But like, no, I like me asking you that certainly not.
But like Renira as a puppet of fate or Renira as the puppet master of dance.
Yeah.
Or it's just blood.
I don't know.
I think it's all in the mix.
Certainly, I think the question of responsibility and culpability and how much of this is driven
by the decisions that the characters right now and the dancer making and how much of this
is some sort of inevitable aspect of a Sarah's warnings of dragon rider hubris and dragon
war and the kind of inherent rot in the Targaryen line and what they seek to do and maintain.
You know, there was a, I was going to hit the set the one we got to the scene later.
But because we're talking about it now, like there was a really interesting in house that
dragons built glimpse of like the of the prop, right?
Yeah.
The tapestry that they made for the show.
And it's worth people going to look if they're interested in seeing all the different.
There's like some blood and cheese stuff.
There's a ton of aim and I imagery across it.
There's a lot of hair and all stuff.
Go the owl and news, harrowing given obviously what we learned from Alice in this episode.
But there's also another ruler on the throne with similar imagery is that supposed to
be Egon, like the idea that there's lame all around and shared.
Well, okay, I need to go look at it again.
I saw what you were talking about.
I was, and they didn't put that in the episode.
But it would be clear.
Queen, I was almost the key it was Aries because it's like, to me, it looks like the rulers
engulfed in flame, but it would be a green flame probably if it were the mad king Aries,
like a burn them all sort of.
I am the one I first saw it.
My first thought was that it looked like Nager.
But then almost everything in that tapestry that they show is like this show.
From the show.
From the show.
So then yeah, it was like, all right, well interesting.
Okay.
Anyway, we'll get back to that at the end.
Let's start with the episode begins.
We're nearer learning about Egon and Sunfire.
So not everyone is as thrilled as we are about sweet Sunfires return.
Or while it shares this news, we're nearer is hyperventilating, grasping her chest,
sharing this report with Damon seeking a madness he's getting fit in in his armor for
tumultim.
He is risen.
The small folk name and assign from the gods that Egon is ordained to rule that he and
his dragon have been resurrected to claim the throne, fascinating language given again
that this was I mean, Sunfire has risen.
But the lie from Ranera like Ranera knows Egon is dead.
So the language and word choice here are fascinating.
Obviously, a lot of this prophetic language and the symbols and signs and portents and
signs that the realm is going to see in this.
Egon's status being known, big book change as we have noted previously, but interesting
to just have this definitively confirmed that everyone knows Egon's back.
And you call this you were like, there's no way he burned every single moon, no possible
way.
He's got great figures on the back.
So this is a this is a fascinating place to be.
I thought no, Egon Vitharo, but he's always on top of his shit.
That guy, you know, but who seemed to have this message out there.
So it sure does.
So as you said, there's the Allison to aspect of kind of having planted this.
Just tell the megons dead seed, but the Ranera like hoisted in a double capacity here
by her own dragon, Patar and symbolic.
Patar does really rich.
She is the one who positioned with first sea smoke and then of course the full sowing,
the idea of the dragon raising the army of the seeds as a sign of her worthiness to rule.
She told people Egon was dead.
The other thing that shows choice to like pretend Sunfire was dead for this long or have
people think Sunfire was dead for this long pays off here because it is this rebirth
and resurrection versus like our dude was hurt and hanging out and like eating on the ground
before he healed enough to fly.
And of quite the same effect.
So yeah, understand this choice more fully here.
What do you think Bala and or Damon and or anyone else could have done to make sure that
like go check his his dragon pulse like what what would have been more the more thorough
should they just have burned.
Sweet Sunfire.
I mean, I guess there's the other case that maybe you don't leave an entire intact dragon
there if you want to be absolutely sure, but that's true.
They have noted that Mayleys was decomposing and Sunfire wasn't well, but what's the
decomposition aided by painful memory chopping off Mayleys's head.
That struck me more is just again, Ranero looking to blame everybody else around her for
everything.
No, I understand that, but I'm just I'm just like, you know, it's like when you when someone
seems like they're dead and you're like just shoot them in the head just to make sure.
Yeah, I'm like what I just like driven a stake into the heart of Sunfire.
Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm glad that didn't happen.
Sweet Sunfire here to here to wow us.
The real is buzzing.
You know, I was the give us that moment that Larus and I got shared earlier in the season
when I was very anxious.
Obviously, and Larus said anonymity is a boom.
He's like, chill, my guy.
Your eventual resurrection becomes the stuff of song and legend.
It will ensure that your eventual resurrection becomes the stuff of song and legend.
So Ranero's choices and actions allowing that basically like calm down and stopping so
difficult line from Larus to become prophecy of a different sort just delicious.
We didn't get any Larus and Spinaly any of what I would have loved if Larus, you know,
fulfilling his promise to sing the songs of of Aegon had been partially responsible for
the spread of this messaging of like, oh, isn't he is reborn?
He has risen, you know, maybe he's doing it in the shadows and we'll find out later
that he's been working really hard.
One can only help.
You know the other thing about just the egg on lie now in hindsight, we talk about this
a lot with just assessing things people do in real life, things people do in television
shows, movies, books, whatever.
Don't tell a lie that can definitely be disproven.
She was trying all season to get them to find egg on fine, aim and find vague or find
some like, you made yourself a liar too.
You made him the chosen one and you made yourself clearly a liar and stuff.
She was trying to get them and they were like, that's not the priority and she's like,
actually think it is and she was right.
Wow.
She was right about a lot but it's too long.
She's right about a lot.
She's right about a lot.
Right about a lot in this one.
Damon Trestes Suther here says, the lesser gods don't worry, they have no say in this.
We're the bullet of Ovalaria, not sure if you've heard this before.
We have absolute power.
He's playing all the hits, right?
And none of this has anything to do.
I'm sure with Reneira deciding to charge into the great step and demand it.
So, I'm sure that the high septin annoyed her and then half him killed when he doesn't.
I'm sure none of these little seed plants from Damon all season long about the lesser gods
and the superiority of the guy who said in the third episode of this season, I style Oskads
Reneira.
Sure that had nothing to do with this.
For me it's the moment he calls her princess.
I'm like, the high septin, yeah, that was your toast.
That was a rough one.
Your toast.
That was a rough one.
It's over.
You know all the stuff that's a step further around him, we're like, my guy.
No.
Like we're on your side, but please, please, please.
I like from Damon getting, you know, we're going to get such an incredibly rich Damon
Ormond comp later with Ulf.
I'm like, tracked all season the way that Ormond talks about the high towers.
Is it just sort of like it's rich in stench?
Oh, yes.
You know, the superior man idea from Ormans about the high towers and of course, Damon's
version of this hubris, the light is right.
Chris Bernal and I think that's it.
Indeed.
All right, Joe, what did you make of Reneira's curse of Viserys here?
Fucking Viserys paired.
If you want to hit this here as well, with what she says later, to Helena about Viserys
as philosophy being the realms on doing and confronting that.
I just thought it was really interesting to, I mean, first of all, I was really grateful
to hear it because I do love Viserys.
Not again, as the show knows, a lot of this is at Viserys' speed.
A lot of it says auto's beheaded feet too, but like it's, you know, I miss them both.
For her to say, my father Viserys the peaceful, I thought that was a really interesting moment
of branding on the steps of the set there.
Especially because that was auto branding.
And she adopts a couple high tower propaganda lines.
Here she uses her house words.
Oh, yeah.
I like the way she says.
Great stuff.
Gotta co-op the message.
What I do love about Viserys is that she's learning the power of branding.
That's what she learned herself.
I mean, she's like, or when I get it, you need a fit.
You need some eye makeup.
I have a, I have a, dare in the daring.
Roll over dare in the daring.
Prince that was promised in a language they don't understand.
That's who I am, you know?
The fifth that Viserys debuted in the set.
So people are walking around immediately with the T-shirts with like the multiple Viserys.
No question.
And by people I mean us.
Has anyone made that shirt yet?
Yeah.
They're scary.
Yes.
But they are strong in a way that like here in a root of bigger for you and a root of bigger
for you was not okay.
Yes.
I thought this was really good.
Viserys' philosophy is the realm's undoing.
I mean, I don't know.
What I love about the show is I could see it going a number of ways.
You know, I think if Viserys had, if Viserys had better valued this idea of drag and power,
then and made it clear the line of succession and not let auto and all of a sudden to all
these other things get in the way of what was going on here, we would not be at war here.
But in general, I agree with you.
Your favorite thing is to say like, hey was Viserys right about the fact that we can't
control drag ends?
Yes.
I think for finding Renera in this place is so fascinating because I agree with you.
I felt very, even as we were watching this deeply troubling, the scent for Renera character
we have root of for so long in this episode, and steadily across.
We're building methodically toward this point.
I also felt very heartened to like see Renera push to the side and retire this.
I thought frankly very baffling notion that what my father knew, what my father knew.
I understand why the character was there, but never felt like the way Renera, other
than the desperation to seek the legitimacy through the connection to his having chosen
her and the brown, et cetera.
One of the things that we want for characters were invested in for Renera is like, what is
your view?
And so to see Renera shift from Viserys to just Damon is so dismaying and you understand
why the character has wound up in this place, but it hurts us.
It hurts us to see.
And then I do wonder and I worry, can you hold on, even if you don't agree completely
to what fueled those words of caution, if you have arrived at a moment of actively rejecting
his mode of operation?
Like can Ezra Nier and a place where there's room for that kind of nuance, it doesn't feel
like it.
I think what's also true, and this is what Allison said earlier in the season, is just sort
of like the way that Viserys operated is came from the privilege of being, you know,
the chosen male heir to the throne and that is just not something that was ever available
to Renera.
Agon could do the rock bottom least, you know, with some strong courtiers around him and
not under nearly as much scrutiny as Renera was when she was trying her damnedest to please
everyone and disappointing everyone at the same time.
No question.
And even something about the like, he put me here language also, it made me think of
something you, I can't remember if this was last week or the week before, but recently
I won the pause, you know, noting the, and we had a beautiful email about this, like,
the characters who find themselves in this place were like, was this even what I wanted?
And there's, you don't necessarily want, we don't want Renera to say, I don't want this,
it could be Agon's.
That's not where we are with it.
But this question more broadly, for Renera, for Allison, for Agon, for any of them, of
where they have wound up and what connection there is to the thing that they actually desire
and then you pan back even a step further, it makes me think of Allison that really great
Allison auto fight back in the day of like, well, you know, how would I even know?
Like, is this not what you wanted?
How would I even know?
And the idea that Renera, a character when she was younger who was so, now even this though
was like, formed from all my father does is talk about the male air he wants.
So then Renera is in a position of reacting to that by saying, I just want to fly my
dragon and eat cake.
Like, you don't exist in a vacuum in life, right?
But it is so interesting to think about the character's history and that respect and
their evolution.
You get to this place of making choices where you do everything through the lens of meeting
to hold on to this thing.
And it's like, you might think it's your inherited birthright and also the thing that you
definitely deserve more than this piece of shit.
But is it the thing you want?
Right.
And does everybody have to pay as a result that you could ask that question of a number of
different characters, demons, certainly.
Part of what makes the dance of the dragon so interesting, the tragic.
But Damon does desperately want.
He does the throne.
I mean, thinking back to one of the earliest images that we got in this series of just
like Damon looking at the throne, sitting in the throne.
It was all there just from the work of the throne.
Speaking of this, actually, he was on my mind again in this stretch because when Damon
says to Renera, this is your test, right?
The realm only recognizes strengths.
Is Damon right over all about how they should conduct themselves?
Maybe maybe not reasonable minds can disagree.
The fact that the realm is looking for strength in that Renera as a queen is going to have a
harder time displaying it.
That's undeniable.
The reason that this made me think of the Sarah is because of that conversation he and Lionel
had, not the iconic fabled, this is the stuff.
But actually in the episode in the episode prior and the fifth episode of season one called,
we light the way.
The Crucible conversation.
There's a part of me that wishes I had been tested.
I often think that in the Crucible, I might have been forged a different man.
Lionel responded by saying many that are tested only wish to have been spared.
So how do you respond to the test?
But also do you want the test?
Do you actually want it?
The fact that the Sarah is just like, oh, only I had gotten the opportunity to prove
myself.
This is what that Crucible looks like.
I think what's fundamentally tough about trying to determine who knows the right way to rule
rest, Westoros is like, we have trouble understanding what it means to be a monarch.
You know what I mean?
We who have grown up in a semblance of a democracy.
And so like, this idea of like, what's the right way?
Is it giving out food to all the people or is it like with an iron fist?
This Machiavelli an idea of fear versus love, right?
Like since love and fear could hardly exist together, if we must choose between them,
it is safer to be feared than loved.
But Machiavelli was like, you should try to be both.
Be a feared and be loved.
But Renera is just like, they will not love me no matter what I do.
I keep trying to please everyone.
And I took the money from the nobles and I'm trying to please them and they don't give
a shit about me and all they want is this fucking
Aegon who sucks actually.
And that's all they want.
So they'll fear me instead and that will be effective.
But like, you know, when I'm watching her administration at work, my instinct is to be
like, yes, let's feed the hungry.
Let's do all these things.
Sure.
Sure.
But it's just sort of like not how the system of government works in Westoros and it's
certainly not how it works in the midst of a civil war, you know, when you need to have
this iron fist.
So it's really, you know, like I feel like sometimes you can watch, you know, the West
Wing or something like that where it's like how to run a democracy and you're like,
oh, that's the right way, that's the wrong way.
But like watching a monarchy in the midst of a civil war, I'm just sort of like, all
of us are saying Renera is making the wrong choices and I'm like, I agree.
But what are the right choices?
Totally.
It's one of the things about, you know, watching and obviously this was true and the original
game of Thuron's Day is a song of ice and fire days.
It's like, one of you find yourself, I remember this feeling regularly podcasting
about Game of Thrones the first time around like saying things and it's like, I don't
see she should see them all.
Yeah.
And sometimes the season and like early when, you know, you should have killed Darren,
you should have, it's like, well, you find yourself trying to analyze it through the
lens of these characters in this context, which is like, you're the Machiavelli quote
is so interesting because it makes me think of other viserious, the like who can rule
without love or fear, but then Danny building toward the horror of let it be fear.
Right.
Because she wanted to be a beloved, you know, like when you feel the thinking of her sense
of that, thinking of her at Winterfell talking to Sansa and like trying to mend fences or
whatever and Sansa being Sansa and that like that memed fake smile from daddy.
But she's just trying, she's like, I want to show up and I want to be a breaker of
chains and I want to like, you know, have a better administration than, then, you know,
Bobby B and Queen Cersei and all the rest and they can't wait to give it to the other
guy instead.
That said, John better than egg on other egg on better than the saying on.
I mean, what can I got?
Renera studies herself.
All right.
Damon's philosophy won the day.
How have you, I'm going to ask a Mallory question.
Yeah.
How hard do you think Damon was when she was like, oh my God, well, the go do a do a war.
The fact that, you know, we get some quick instructions out of the way right.
Have you go to the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the dragon pit?
We're going to like watch for it for egg on.
You continue with the tumble to plants and then the, the leaning in the sexy flirtatious
like eyes up delivery from Renera.
The realm is watching do not make a monster to me.
And then the musk and like the, the rasp in Damon's voice.
It will be my great pleasure.
Your grace, pretending for just a few more moments that they're not going to kill everyone
really makes these two want to fuck mega horny moment between the two.
And also like it reminded me of Damon and Viseras.
And it's just sort of like this is all he kind of ever wanted to be for Viseras to a
certain degree where he was just sort of like let me go.
I want you.
Why'd you pick this guy as your hand?
What about me?
Let me, let me do battle for you.
Let me ask you to up.
Like, let me do it.
Prop, prop, prop you up indeed.
And then, and then, and then later he's like, hoops.
I sure is.
Hoops through his concussion.
So, um, Renera vows to kill egg on herself later.
He will talk about putting her head on a spike.
We have an email about this.
Well, on the fear and love front, I think our listener Holly wrote in about Rob's
Pierre, the French Revolution.
And Rob's Pierre was someone who had all these ideals about what the revolution should
be.
But this is a, uh, Holly wrote, he was such a good, just educated man who truly believed
in enlightenment ideals.
But what he said to justify the reign of terror was this quote, the whole development
of our theory would end here if you had only to pilot the vessel of the Republic through
calm waters.
But the tempest, roars, and the revolution imposes on you another task.
And he thought the unjustified the means to get a justice society.
We're going to chop people's heads off.
So like this idea of like, I have, Renera's like, I have an idea of what the realm can
be if everyone just agrees that I've been charged.
But first, we're going to have to burn up a bunch of people like us.
And that's, you know, this is the gate team, her gate team is a dragon.
So here we are.
Sure is.
Yeah.
Waiting in the hallway.
Bella, who has like us seen a number of very tense and fraught court or exchanges across
the season.
I'll just just, just, Renera.
I'll do it.
Pretty sure new new way gone, Bella looked great.
Oh, interesting.
Uh, Bella would like to know if Renera has a plan to rescue Coralist from Tomlton, where
he is being halitostic and prisoner.
And this is where some of that like blame casting passive voice popped from Renera here.
Sunfire was allowed to live.
My enemies have been allowed to muster those strengths later with the high saption.
You will not deny me.
Who is denying Renera?
Who is blocking her?
Uh, tells Bella here Coralist made his choice.
Now, I think like you said before, we did have that not wrong reaction.
I think it's also true that Renera can't pretend that the Adam Allen decision was not going
to sit poorly with Coralist, or pass the stage of being able to parse those subtleties
with those, with those characters.
Bella tells Renera that Coralist's abduction was her fault.
Says to Renera's face, you use those who serve US tools, which is what we have.
We heard Bella say to Adam last episode.
It's how Ormond oriented his recruitment pitch to all this idea that everybody is a
tool to Renera.
And then says, and this was, this was like a woe moment.
Yeah, but you can't cast me aside because you need my dragon.
Incredible stuff from Bella.
Right.
Calling out a true thing there, right?
The dragonath is on everyone's mind.
And then Renera reached out and grabbed Bella's face, grabbed her jaw, grabbed her chin.
Gasps.
I was genuinely shocked by that because there's the violence of it, but there's also just
the depth of this rift between, you know, we've got this all stranger, a recent recruit
that was almost handled, but like, you don't know him.
Bella's family.
Like, this is Damon's kid.
This is your stepdaughter.
For Bella to say these things to you, it's signal something about where we are.
And some other things.
And some other things, but I'm curious.
And Dada and La.
Indeed, all of the above.
And also just this entitlement from Renera that everybody is hers.
I thought it was really interesting.
She calls her what?
insulin child.
It should not blame you for it.
Truly, insulin runs in your blood as your sister has lately reminded us.
I thought that was really interesting because of course, as we just outlined, you know,
the family tree is a snarled mess.
So when she says it runs in your blood, is she talking about Volary and blood?
Like, that's what it seemed like to me.
And then, you know, we get into like the aspect of the show that I'm not sure the show is
always directly grappling with, but it's nonetheless subtext here, which is racial.
Right?
If she's saying it runs in your blood, I mean, a lot of what Bella has is Damien's blood.
You know what I mean?
Like, a lot of it is Targaryen blood, but there's this Valarian blood in there.
And if that's what she's saying, like, you know, when we're evoking Coralus, when we're
thinking about Reyna, we're thinking about Bella, like that use the word insulin.
Not no question.
It's just so close to sort of like upjumped, which is just so close to a lot of other
things that I just think I don't know how intentionally the show is interacting with
that, but I think we can't ignore the optics of who Renera Sanks are in things, too.
I would say for sure.
Dragonrider discontent has to be on our minds in this episode.
Well, and especially, sorry, just especially then for her to whisper to Alan later, like
when she's like, insulin, insulin runs in your blood, Bella, but later to Alan, you've
got the blood of Ovaleria in you, you know what I mean?
Like, this blood doesn't serve you when it doesn't serve you, but it does when it does,
you know?
Well, and in general, that is how Renera is conducting herself.
Like, what do I need from you in this moment?
And how can I achieve that end?
Speaking of Alan, takes command of the Valarian men.
They're finally here in King's Landing.
So astonishing accents.
I don't understand.
Where are they from?
Literally like five feet away.
Do you think Coralists like these are meant maybe this guy, because it's just this one
guy.
Maybe this is like a guy that Coralists like picked up on his adventures.
And they come work, you know, with me.
Yep.
From, true.
Across the narrow season where I like, that's from one of the voyages, but that's like
that's my best guess.
Otherwise, I don't know.
I've got no other ideas.
So that, let's go with that.
Yeah.
They want to rescue Coralists, of course.
And Alan's like, what if we didn't?
The Queen needs us.
Coralists knew the risks.
He'd want us to focus on the Valarian honor.
And that way, except then.
Why, who are you?
Who are you?
Why do you get to say this?
He says that he is Coralist's eldest.
His name's successor.
You're once and future lord of the tides.
By the way, this would be a handy time for Alan to have grown out his signature hair.
And we're waiting.
Yeah.
We're waiting for the growth.
Surprise that we're not at that point, aren't we?
I bumped hard on this.
Yeah, tell me.
Yes, I mean, it's because it doesn't make sense.
It makes no sense.
Yeah, it's obviously a TH white reference.
It's an Arthurian reference.
And Condal cited Arthur a lot when he was talking to us about Aegon and a lot of the
behind the scenes they've mentioned are three in ideas in this episode in the season.
We talked about the Lady of the Lake Alice language last.
Right.
A couple episodes ago.
The Once and Future King, which is, you know, we got an email about this, but I was already
bumping really hard on this, right?
But our listener Nick wrote it to say, I'm an understanding of the Once and Future King
term from the Legend of Arthur is that he was the king.
He is not right now since he's healing on Avalon, but he will return as the king and the
future when Britain needs him most.
Essentially, he was the king and will be again.
Unless I miss something, Alan is not now nor has he ever been the lord of the tides.
At best, he is a substitute hand, but he's not even legitimized.
How could he fulfill the first half of the statement, even if he will.
This would probably one of the writer staff being too clever, but please help me.
I don't, you know, I have no explanation for this.
Maybe he's really leaning into the alternate history of having been embraced from day
one.
Once and Future lord of the tides.
He was not the one.
So I don't know what to say about it.
He wasn't.
But again, it's an episode really rooted in the idea of self-mythology.
Sure.
And building your own brand.
He's trying to do that.
But it doesn't make sense.
Always.
You went to a warm in school and he wasn't fully paying attention.
This is where we're going to jump actually very quickly just to elsewhere in the episode
to talk about the Alan Adams while we're here with Alan later when Alan is waiting to
escort Reneira to the set.
Adam comes up and he's like, you know what's going on with Reneira?
Like the Seaghan news is central near to any dark path.
That's what Adam says.
And mentioned specifically the treatment of Bala and Adam is not moved to that by that
at all.
I thought that Alan not caring about the Bala part of this seemed weird.
I just an ongoing weirdness inside of this love triangle that they've created here.
I think if there were like one other scene between these two.
Between Adam learning that Bala and Alan got together and then an Alan and Adam seem
where they talked about Bala.
So for Adam to bring up Bala and be like, do you not care that Bala is locked up and
Alan to be like, I'm not engaging with this with you.
That would make more sense to me.
And Adam would be like, I'm worthier of her love because I care that she's grounded
or we're bonded because we're dragonwriters or all these other things.
But it's just like, I felt, I think this is thematically what ends up happening with
Alan and the high septin.
Works okay.
Some of the takeaways like work well.
So deeply upsetting as well as well gets very, very.
Remember when we were like missing, they're fun.
I know.
I know.
That was very recent.
I am missing a couple Alan scenes like that, that Adam Bala conversation for sure and
another Alan Ranera moment I think as well.
How does Alan, we got a reaction shot that like, well conversation is Alan had about
Lord Coralus in Tumble 10.
How do I care about what do I think about this finger gift that I received?
What should we do?
You know, like, the stoicism that he presents here and just sort of this like stifling
down of his humanity to execute on the Queen's wishes.
Is an interesting place to find him for sure.
I'll just agree with you.
I wish we were missing just like a few steps along the way.
We are and I think it's like because Alan in particular so close to Ranera as now this
like really trusted right hand, the, you know, we've talked about this in other context
with other characters sets like we got such wonderful time with Orman, Darren, more than
we would have expected with Gwyn, et cetera and really benefited from that.
We talked with Chris on Sunday about like not feeling like we got enough time with the
River Lords or the wolves for some of the Roddy Roddy and Allie stuff to land.
And Alan is actually a character we've gotten decent amount of time with but we're so close
to Ranera where like the progression is so intentional and methodical and we have, we have
gotten to witness to every step along Ranera's journey.
Now Ranera is the main character of the show so there's not going to be an equivalent
there for all the people around her.
But this, I just felt a little jarred by the Alan thing and I don't know it is weird.
It's like the difference between does the outcome and ultimate place not make sense.
That's not how I feel about it.
But wanting to better understand how the character got to that headspace because I think it's
interesting to see like in this Adam Alan moment, an inversion of how, you know, even
just from what we glimpse from them briefly in season two, we know that they always thought
about the desire, like the desire for more, the desire for courtless, the desire for
a different thing, you know, so to hear Adam say a glorious descent for a bastard and
really cement the fact that this has flipped.
You know that the thing Adam used to want is now the thing that Alan has gotten a taste
of and really relishes, which like we, we saw early in this season how delighted Adam
was to be one of Ranera's writers.
So they've been moving in opposite directions and that has been clearly mapped.
Yeah.
I like that part of it.
You know, they think that Alan who has not only those whispered, but in a later scene,
a scene after this, that whispered old Valeria, blood of old Valeria line from Ranera and
that like idea that this character who has wanted to be chosen by his father and wasn't
has now been chosen in all of these different ways by Ranera that he is in this position.
Yeah.
What it tells us about like the proximity to power, the impact and the corrosive effect it
has on all sorts of people in the realm, not just the person who seeks to sit on the
iron door and a rather crown.
I like all that.
Literally just missing like a scene or two to understand.
This felt, it felt very rash to me for Alan to be here.
So.
And again, once again, I would say almost all of his scenes this season, even his sex scene,
we mentioned this at the time, we're just still about his dad, which like if him doing
this because Ranera offers to be his daddy in a way that his dad never was like I get
that, but I don't know.
I'm still yeah, missing some depth of the Alan character.
Yeah.
Orman.
Hmm.
Also getting suited up for battle.
Getting some scrolls, classic Ormond and watching Darren gazing out the window as
Tumbleton ready for war because he's Ormond.
He badly misreads Darren's expression.
And he's like, it's all for you, my boy.
Classic.
Um, for, for you by my design because I'm a messy manipulative bitch, classic Ormond.
You're really loved him.
A manipulative bitch.
He is.
I'm going to miss him so much.
Yeah, me too.
Being inspired the masses to fight Joanna must be a knight.
What a real.
What are you talking about?
This was insane and incredible.
I really liked this Gawain's face.
There's the looks of the past between them where they're like, you know, Darren's like
Gawain, jump in.
Like you do this and sit.
Jump in and Gawain, I loved the shot through the blade on Darren's shoulder where Gawain
is just like so dismayed watching this.
A lot of really good perspective shots.
And so that's so a lot of really good shots were either camera sitting just right over
someone's shoulder.
Yeah.
Um, I thought it was really, really good.
Um, I listened to Michael on this knighting ceremony, a sham about knighting ceremony.
Beyond.
So it's interesting given the high tower connection to the seven that Darren's knighting
by Ormond was the first shown in the series that did not invoke the seven in the traditional
in the name of the mother I charge to.
So just like further exposing the hypocrisy of Ormond who literally closed himself in
these images of the seven and is just sort of like not using any of that language here.
And in this farce of a knighting ceremony where he says, you, this king that I've made,
serve me your least word.
I, I thought that the so funny.
This was so the decision not to use to the, to the point in the email, the more traditional
and familiar knighting thou.
Yeah.
Was so perfect as was what filled that space instead.
Not just that he's not doing the proper vow.
This guy who has obviously no idea what it means to really be a knight in the way that
we talk about with characters like Brian or like a character like Raymond who we just more
recently got to watch this very emotional knighting ceremony with and a knight of the
seven kingdoms.
Um, you know, and so we have this evolution and all this, the knighting scenes in the season,
we got the great the seeds knighting and the comedy of that with with Adam and he went
all further in the season.
And this one felt so rooted in hypocrisy and just necessity, right?
So we got to do this thing.
We have to keep thinking about the brand and the image, the way that Orman says with his
big smile, this for me, to the extent he's capable of sincere emotion pride on his face,
dare in the daring and you just know I feel like we know Darren well enough at this point
to know that he's like, I haven't earned this.
I don't deserve it.
And you definitely don't deserve to give it to me.
Would you say, I don't want to do all this.
And then the fact that Orman, the goal, this was such a great little detail and choice.
Specifically invoking protecting the children as he is massing to the children.
Yeah, absolutely.
Great.
The women and the children.
Yeah, very good.
But it's just, it's just funny because we're used, you know, across Game of Thrones and
none of the seven kingdom and even earlier the season and, you know, you put this together
in a beautiful like, like cut that we got earlier season, but like we're so used to
the rhythms of this knighting ceremony.
And so to hear it outside the normal rhythm and just very overtly missing.
Yes.
The seven.
Yes.
For the wrongness to be the point and to be so palpable and keen was just really, really
great.
I liked it quite a bit.
Um, off the white.
Yeah.
Go and full off the sought.
Really earning that moniker.
He's down in the tumulten kitchens.
What was your vibe of the, I feel like the people were not really enjoying his
show that he was putting on here.
Oh, I thought he was like a little salty, a little grabby, a little handsy.
Oh, definitely a salty.
Yeah.
But like, yeah, it just seemed like I didn't feel like people were like, yeah, this guy,
like, so the one guy who almost looked like a seed with the, the tar care, he was like,
fuck off.
What the fuck?
Yeah.
For sure.
The cook was maybe the most into it, but even he was a skeptic.
Yeah.
So just like all, you know, if we got all this version of this, everyone was super into
it.
He was like, I was, I was the bell of the fucking ball.
I was the king of the party, but the reality is even the, you know, this is all he's dreamed
of.
Being able to drink around people of his own station and find the balance.
A bunch of the ones.
You know, and just sort of like being able to like, and thinking about going back to when
we met him and how he was surrounded by people who like kind of loved his shit, you know,
and just like, yes.
Now he's just cloaked in this delusion of, you know, it's very huge talking to Cap being
like, I got a dragon.
It's not not the coolest thing.
She's like, you smell like shit.
She's like, disgusting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I really love that point about the thinking back to the pub days with the lads because
while they found him, they like, they were in on the stick.
So it was like part of the ridiculous, but they liked it.
Yeah.
And it does kind of make you think back to all of going to Reneira and appealing on their
behalf as well.
Like, you know, just like a little key, but just some part ends and we'll be fine.
Like looking out for the people he knows actually.
And he also like earlier this season, he wanted to be a Targaryen, right?
How would you style yourself?
Targaryen.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
Um, but here in the speech, he's like incest, they're incestuous aliens don't you know
what I mean?
He's like hitting the tar graces of him here.
And so it was an interesting blend of attacking and insulting them.
Yeah.
Seeking to embarrass them.
Queen of bastards for a near a mocking the Damon, Reneira marriage, both the short lead
parting and bitch and a kennel, but also the like uncle lover husband stuff.
But then he's like, I know.
Come on.
The incest jokes on the quote cards are ours.
Fight yourself.
Me like dragon styling himself, dragon lord styling himself.
Uh, Lord, oh, if he's like, you won't give me the thing I want in all sorts of respects.
I'm going to fucking take it for myself and Orman's about to of course find that out
as well in a very crispy fashion.
I would like to ask if I don't know just wig watch GM with Joanna Robinson TM extend
to foe her.
A crime or no.
That's either called a crest or a plume.
I was trying to figure out like what exact terminology for that was.
Um, I really liked it.
You hated that the hell.
I thought it was absolutely perfect for all.
It looks so stupid.
It doesn't hate it.
It's like here it is.
The tar care that I don't actually have.
Right.
Like you have tar care in hair.
It's not just not, but he is like a, you know, a fixed it via horse hair to the top of
his home.
I think it's great.
Great stuff.
And it's just like too big for his head.
It's perfect.
Uh, it was gigantic and quite long.
Seems very impractical to me for a battle.
But what do I know?
What do I know?
I'm sorry, I inspired.
That's what you know.
That's what I know.
Renewers gazing at the crown.
Visericist crown.
Visericist legos.
Gazing anymore.
For gazing days are over.
Boy, do you think this means that I, I made the joke on talk of Thron's, sorry, a bad
leg.
But maybe it was actually like the sex was so good.
Uh, and there's like, I can't afford any distractions.
Yeah.
Get her out of here.
That's my preferred focus.
I'm a Sunday professional.
I know she is.
She is.
Alinda comes in and says, Selena is not eating.
The masters are worried.
They're concerned about, Alina, they're concerned about the vapor.
Alina is going to deal with this in short order in a pretty disturbing way.
Alinda has to do so much bad news delivery in this episode.
I just think that Renera, it's not even, I put in the outline having Alinda dump,
sorry, on kicker out was the West Rocio equivalent of like, dumpy someone via text, but it's
actually worse than that.
It's like back in the day, remember when we were younger?
I think we need to rely on the talent.
Tell, um, exactly.
Rick, I don't know.
Yeah.
Exactly.
That I don't like it.
Yeah.
Evan.
We had landlines and we would always do the three way calls.
So you'd like cross someone else, do your dirty work or like fish to see if someone had
a crush on you.
Yeah.
You, you knew the other person was like, probably on the line listening to the brain.
Yeah.
Wild stuff.
Um, I mean, Renera is very chill here as always when asking Alinda before the Massaria
aspect of this to some in Allen for the escort to the sept.
There will be no doubt who the gods have chosen to rule.
Okay.
Everything's fine.
Yeah.
Massaria, when Alinda goes to share this news, the Targaryen soldiers, they barge and they've
got packing crates.
I mean, that's just rude.
Like let Alinda go in and tell her first hysterical though that Massaria is in her beautiful
silken gown putting on fancy jewelry.
Oh, she's putting on new earrings.
She's like, I heard what Sylvie said and I've decided to lean in.
I do not want to leave the one.
I don't.
I don't.
Um, I, I will say this.
And this is, this is not book spoilers.
This is just me feeling like whatever.
I feel really justified in my whole like Alinda as Massaria's person more than Renera's
person.
She's torn up here.
I had no spoilers for that.
But it's just sort of like now Massaria is gone.
Alinda feels really bad about it and Alinda is still there in Renera's closest circle.
Uh, if I were Renera, I would be worried.
No, well, Renera is not paying attention.
Um, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
I, I would just like to read a little bit from a season three episode five.
This is from the Oracle Allison.
Yeah.
I simply urge you to think of yourself.
There is good in Renera, but the crown is a weight that crushes Renera.
We'll do in the end what she has to do.
And what she has to do will be dire.
There is only one who can walk that path with her and she chose him long ago.
Massaria, she knows what demon is.
And Allison says they have ever been two sides of a coin as much as she may deny it.
Her tensions may be on you now that you bait in the warm light of her gaze,
but you stake so high a wager on the whims of a dragon rider.
Allison was right about a lot rich words from the mouth.
Oh, hi,
I'm sure you're right.
Anyway, yeah,
Allison was right.
No room for me.
Sorry.
I was a counterweight to Damon.
When you're all in on Damon, when you were trying to just,
well, and what, and no room for non-dragorider, honestly,
what Ryan was saying was if we, if we think of them as like an angel in devil,
in her shoulder, if that's, it's not that easy, but let's say it is.
Two devils.
Yeah.
She's listening to devil on the left now.
So yeah, devil on the right is not even like welcome the building.
She cannot even look at him at her.
I think there's something to about the idea of, well, it's, it feels,
in her humanity.
Yes.
And like, so somebody who not only is going to challenge and counter Damon's world view
and philosophy, but someone who is appealing to something in Reneira,
that Reneira feels now that she has to stifle and quiet.
And even just then there's the more practical, like kill the boy.
Kill the boy.
Kill the person.
Yeah.
It's sad.
Like when she calls it a Reneira, yes, the intimacy, the vulnerability.
So there's a little bit of the, I maybe need to get someone who,
I know knows how to work me away from me, like a practical element,
but also like us, someone who has seen me.
I don't want to look at this mirror anymore.
Okay.
Fair enough.
She's like, you get to go to Pentos.
Where is the gold coming from for this?
Maybe she sold literally a gown.
The old Shay, the Pentos temptation that always goes well.
That's where the blonde babies are, by the way.
We got a lot of emails asking where the blonde babies are.
Reneira and Damon's children, I am surprised to have zero updates at the end of the season.
As you warned me that that was likely where we were, we're heading, but I am surprised.
There are two blonde babies.
Jaffrey is awake.
I thought Jaffrey's crown looked all a little circle on his head, looking great.
Look great.
But there are two other sibs.
Yep.
They're blonde and they're often Pentos, I guess.
Nobody seems to give a shit except me.
The mermaid's kiss, which is the boat that she's going to part on.
Yada, yada, yada, something fire and blood.
I'm not going to get into it, but also the name of the ship and
the game thrones.
Quentin Martel.
Mermaid's kiss.
Is it the same ship who knows, but it has its own Wikipedia page.
The mermaid's kiss.
So, you know, an important boat.
A lot of boat stuff, which is just going on the boat.
No, no, no.
She in a moment that I don't want to be reminded of season one episode nine, basically ever.
And Miss Ariel later just like scooting off the wagon, because there's a lot of shit going on in the city.
Yeah.
It did make me think of the way that Eric, your favorite character and Renees were just like kind of able to get where they needed to go.
She had a club to hold was up.
Oh, man.
Something you need to ask yourself, are these cloaks of invisibility?
Oh, it's a great question.
Interesting.
Food for thought.
I only think about it.
8HBO crossover event.
Imagine the merch possibility.
Oh, my God.
You get a cloak of invisibility in the paisley that Miss Ariel is rocking?
Wow.
Why not?
Before Miss Ariel, perhaps it was magical aid.
Man, she is among the people.
She has to exit the red keep, and she will pass Elena.
Because Elena, you noted the kind of like gray pallard, just the tears, this outdoor space that God's would, the bugs, a place of prior peace.
That's not created.
Devastation.
Queen's guard comes over.
We've got to take you back to your confinement.
It's all incredibly bleak and sad for a character we adore.
We've done a really great job this season with sound design and just a little shift when Elena entered the courtyard of the Dreamy Days Javiyor.
Oh my God.
There are people around it.
It's not exactly the same, but I dreamed of this courtyard.
There is the pale mare.
It was just a gamey little chill.
The sense for Helena, the hour is near.
And for book readers, that the hour is drawing near.
And then Missario walks down the steps
to add on what does she say to Helena?
Oh, she's like, do not trust the queen.
Egg on has returned his dragon lives.
Your unborn child is a hostage.
A price of which you can hold power over your enemies.
She will never release you.
This is...
It's a lot to get out in a sort of brushing of shoulders moment.
So good job Missario.
Very efficient from Missario.
Yeah.
So Helena just looks completely hopeless hearing this.
Renera immediately, and I mean immediately.
We're not even out of the fucking building folks.
Bit in the ass by casting Missario aside.
This question of how do you treat your people
and what happens over the whole time?
For the last time, probably not.
Big reap and so in episode for all of our characters.
You mentioned a Hock the Throne.
Yeah.
One of the things you loved about this in terms of a tie to the book.
I'm sure that was the deep dive listeners as well.
Well, so when Helena dies in the book,
a similar mechanism out the window onto the spikes.
Like, there is a lot of mystery surrounding her death.
Did she jump?
Was she pushed?
And Missaria is in many of the rumors.
Missaria is linked to Helena's death.
So we were wondering early in the season.
Like, I thought when Missaria had that house made killed
and she knew that she knew that Helena was pregnant.
And she's like that one kill her.
Yeah.
I thought she was going to elbow bump Helena out the window
because Helena knew that she knew that Helena was pregnant.
I thought it was entirely possible to be there.
So I thought Missaria might kick her out the window.
But instead Missaria, let's say trying to help her
gives her this advice here.
And if you want to use the Reneer of Passive Voice
assigning blame thing, you could say
that Missaria's words whispered to Helena
or the reason Helena goes out the window.
I think there are a number of other signs and portents
and stuff like that.
But connecting Missaria to Helena's jump out the window
is a fun, fire and blood connection that I really enjoyed.
I pulled the whole passage and then realized that 80% of it
doesn't apply to the show in terms of the other scenarios
and characters are mentioned.
So no point in reading that part.
Maybe it could have been this that didn't exist.
Pretty funny, actually, the link at that.
Anything.
But the last sentence, the Missaria one,
septin used to suggest that Lady Missaria,
the white worm, chose this night to tell Helena
of the death of her son, Meilor,
and the grizzly matter of his passing.
I think we could say that Helena's dead.
Like, is there any other kid?
There is another kid, Meilor.
This is what George lost his shirt about
in his blog post where he was like,
because there's no Meilor, baby Meilor,
Jaira and Jaira's younger brother, Meilor,
because he doesn't exist on the show
and then he dies horribly in the book.
Awful.
Awful.
I mean, on the list of all of the appalling deaths
in Fireball, that's high up there.
They ripped apart.
Very bad.
Okay, so like, Meilor dies a bit of bridge.
And because that doesn't happen in the show,
George is like, how are they going to make Helena jump out the window
if Meilor doesn't exist and, you know,
and in George's version of whatever version of the script he read,
he was like, there's no reason
for Helena to take her own life without Meilor's death.
And all of us watching this season are like,
I don't, we've talked about this before in this
version, but like, we can put it on main now.
Yeah, we can.
I don't know if they changed
the storyline after George had that reaction to it
and we're like, okay, we got to do some work this season
to make it really clear why Helena would go out the window.
I think every single person watching the season
can be like, oh, I get why Helena went out the window.
Like, no question.
Joanna, what was that blog post called?
Yeah.
What was it called?
Toxic butterflies?
What does it mean?
Beware of butterflies.
Beware of butterflies.
So hard not to think about that.
I have no clue.
We did have to write about this with like,
we had, I have to admit, some shitting and grittance
on our faces when we asked them about this.
But the butterflies, he did not take the bait.
But like, that is definitely why we asked about the use of the butterflies
in the set, so because I think there's no doubt in our minds.
I'm sorry.
I think it would be where the butterflies wink.
But it is also symbolically rich in terms of the kind of morphesis of.
Yes.
There's no doubt in our minds that the reason that a bunch of butterflies
take flight when Helena dies is a nod to Georgia's very,
very saline rich blog post that he wrote about Helena's death.
Character arc handled devastatingly, but well, ultimately.
We had a lot of great time with her.
Really, really good.
And we did get an email from someone who works on the show
that the vision that Helena has of her and two children
in the future was supposed to be Malor and Jaira.
And so this idea of like, again, every vision of her future
that she dreamed, whether it's like, I shall become a dragon rider
or I will take my own life out the window
or I will escape and raise my children.
It's just like a bad outcome no matter what.
And so in order to not become a dragon rider
in order to not lean into this corruptive power or to not,
choose a happy future for myself that's so neglects
sort of the cost that it would have for the realm,
I will take my own life and the life of my own born.
They have the same time.
Yeah.
I mean, when we, again, talked about the dreamfire vision
and this idea of thinking of the thing Helena has said last season
and just over the episodes about, I don't want to burn anyone
not wanting to be a part of this thing that is,
this doom that is increasingly inescapable.
Yeah.
I think that that massaria connection to the text
and just the question of what Helena hears there
and the sense of an inescapability of confinement
of no path to the life that she wants to lead coupled with
the doom that populates each glimpse of a life she could potentially
lead, it was not able to lead.
That question of like for a dreamer,
seeing something in the future or a number of different
some things in the future and the sense, you know,
the way that Helena has talked about other things in the future
that Helena, we see the tapestry that her narrow picks up at the end
of the episode, Helena has stitched in full her suicide.
There's the question of like,
well, was Helena accept that this was her fate
or did these other things push her and I think the answer can be both.
Well, I think what's interesting about her dream is that there are options here
Yeah.
inside of her dream.
There is like, I could become a dragon rider or I could escape and raise chickens
or I could take my, like if she only dreamt of taking her own life out the window
if all she saw, one option, you know,
but that's not how she's ever described her dreams.
It's just sort of like, no,
which is abstract.
It's an abstract quality.
And also just sort of like very gladrilles mirror,
like might yet come to pat, you know,
like, it's not set in stone, it's not clear.
And so in terms of like that idea of a free will of a dreamer,
I think because she's dreaming of various past forward,
that, but all of them are bad.
But like it introduces ad choice.
None of the choices are good.
Yeah.
But there is a choice for her to make.
I think that this was handled pretty well with Helena in this season
to, to, to that point.
I think that what Helena said to Amen last season
wouldn't make any difference.
Positions us in more of a cemented your destiny is like, what's next?
What's next?
Place?
Kind of, I just think a very strange thing for the show to show.
Yeah.
So I think we have updated the relationship and the role that choice plays.
And then, and also then,
the things that happened to you, the influence that that has on the way you see
your future in the future that you, you seeker or think you can forge felt,
I thought, pretty well crafted the season.
Speaking of well crafted, we have an Alice Rivers back story, holy hell, my God.
Amen.
Dreaming.
Haunted.
Again, by Agon Screams, by his own Christ for help, wakes up and has to confront
the fact that his own mom who we wants to fuck boys into.
I could continue to be very moved by Amen to the season.
I think I might be in the minority here, honestly, but I thought the way that he confronted
what Alice and did to him was very, you know, it was very sad.
I was just a kid.
That was amazing.
And Alice is like, yeah, your mom poisoned you.
You're alone.
But guess what?
We can be alone together and that's going to be pretty fucking hot.
And Amin's like, I'm a Kinslayer.
I'm cursed.
You should get away from me.
And I really like that.
Amen has definitely heard my favorite line.
No man is as cursed as the Kinslayer.
And also just want to remind everyone that he is still a Kinslayer just because Agon
is alive.
He killed Luke.
He's a Kinslayer, no matter what.
Joanna, we since Alice debuted in season two have shared a couple different times over
the years and seasons of this passage from Fire and Blood that we loved about Alice and the
mystery of Alice.
Because this was part of like our relationship to the character is not knowing exactly who she
is and where she comes from.
The castle small folk became his captives as well amongst them a wet nurse named Alice
Rivers.
Who was this woman?
A serving one she dabbled in potions and spells says Monkin.
A wood switch.
Claims septid useless.
I'm a lion and gentrous who bathed in the blood of virgins to preserve her youth mushroom
would have us believe plastic mushroom.
So this is all new to us.
And we get it with Alice away from Amin.
Again, the perspective of the camera.
We're on her face seeing what struck me at least a sincere emotion.
I thought so.
I think it's interesting that Ryan said to us in the interview that is possible that Alice
is making this up.
That's not how Gail Rankin performed it.
I would say.
You know, it's possible that that's a thought that the writers have in their mind, but Gail
Rankin certainly I think made a decision or I don't know how many different takes they
have did or whatever.
Maybe she did different performances of it, but this version that they chose for the
final cut, raised to me, especially since Amin cannot see her face.
Yes, exactly.
And we can.
It's very sincere as a woman being very sincerely racked with the grief of the true story that
she's telling.
What does she reveal?
What is that true story?
What is the true telling to borrow a term from this fictional universe?
So Heron Hall was meant to melt it by some dragons.
You might have heard of that.
But Heron Hall was the Lord Heron Hall when that happened.
And the implication here is that she was his lady wife and that she had a child who died
and that she tried to do everything that she could to undo that.
And the bargains that she made had a cost.
Yes.
And the cost was she's cursed to live forever, prisoner of Heron Hall.
Or it's surrounding areas.
I guess she can go visit and kill some people if she needs to.
Unlike Elena, she can go outside for as long as she wants.
So yeah.
And she mentions her title, you know, that she lost her name and she lost her title and
so like that.
So she seems like she was the lady of Heron Hall.
Yeah, because there's a possibility for a second of, oh, she and mistress, but yeah, the
lady.
Yeah.
So she was the lady of Heron Hall.
And we knew that Heron Hall had sons, multiple sons.
Right.
Didn't know anything about the wife.
So this is fascinating as it pertains to, I don't know, I just, we talked about this
in Talk of Thrones.
I just love when magic has a cost.
I was just reading this really fun duology of books that's based on Derbini fanfiction,
but by Bridget Knightley, but it's literally called your cost.
It's really called your, like when you use your powers, how it, how it physically makes
you ill in that book is called your cost.
And I just, I just like always love that idea of the cost of doing magic and especially
this like very dark, um, nature defying, trying to resurrect someone, uh, sort of magic.
And so I love this idea.
I love when Ryan was talking to us about it.
And he was like, something we knew in season two, something we were like, hey, Gail, don't
say this in your press interviews.
Perhaps after Gail in that erotically article was like, she's oh, she's real.
Move over Melisandre.
Yeah, she's real.
Um, it was funny.
Our listener, Liza wrote in with this email, uh, it's titled, so you're telling me you're
a mom.
Um, Liza wrote, I have to assume this subject line was Amin's primary thought when Alice
built her heart and soul sharing her history and origin story about her dear crispy dead
son.
So, the mom, the saga continues, notice, Amin finally introduces Alice as his quote,
betrothed to Aegon, much the surprise of Alice, after hearing the witchy mama back story.
That's right.
Boy, that guy loves, uh, loves a mom.
And I mean, she, you know, she said as much earlier this season, when she was like, I'm
a mother, it was a grieved, you know, all, all these sort of things.
So she did it this, I choose to believe that this is true and I like it.
Same.
Um, I think it's certainly further and, and rich as it's fun now to actually think back
to like every prior Alice comment, but also a moment and just think about why she has
done the thing she's done, but also her relationship to this place, which like we have talked about
a lot is very protective and I used to be the lady.
Yeah.
Wanting to like have it and preserve it and the fact that she understands it in a way
that other people don't.
And that's all true still, but also the idea that she is imprisoned here and bound to
this place and this nature of life alone.
It's a long time to be alone, that's spare with which she said that.
And I like about what it recontextualizes is I was very much like, Oh, Alice is like,
of the nature, the Lord speaks for the trees that I'm like, actually, she's an aggrieved
noble woman, who was like, I was in, this was my house and I was in charge.
And now I have to watch all these other chuckle flux come in and mismanage it, but it,
it just reminds me of, you know, to your point about Damon or Orman, like the, in the
title, meant of this is just sort of like, Oh, she's been cursed.
All of these things are true, but also there is just the indignity of how far down she's
come from the heights of being midwife is a lady, some kind of herring.
Yeah.
And to the nature point, the idea too that like something about your relationship would
change, but not for the reasons you would have wanted it to like, she does have this
now sense of the ancient power of the places we've heard her talk about.
But the fact like the way that she describes treated with things that lived in the forest.
I love that word, treated me too.
Also, that's like, just now I have all the stuff running through my mind about like Alice
going to the, that is a, that's fun to think about.
Wonderful or more at any point.
But you know, the idea that Alice's connection to that and understanding of it is richer
for this herbal reason that watching her son, uh, nearly on the brink of death from
dragon flame and trying to fend off this thing and seeking this magic that could not
challenge the power of dragon flame and then thinking about how Alice is seeking dragons
on her own through that specific lens of her relationship to dragon power and dragon
might and dragon terror.
Because like so fascinating, I was thinking of that there's a Jamie line and feast.
We've been talking, you flagged early this season like the number of feast cross moments
and this passage about her and all this castle as an ill repute and one that's well deserved.
It said that her and his son still walk the halls by night of fire, those who look upon
them burst into flame.
Many ghost stories about her and all, but just the idea for this song of ice of fire fans,
like the horrible idea that Alice has spent a century inhabiting the same space as her
son's ghost.
Like she has mentioned ghosts many times and it's kind of in a, I'm going to scare the
would be bounty hunter who's here and doesn't get this place, but to think about maybe the
terror and the grips that that has had on her.
I'm very rarer seeing Jason.
No question.
No question.
Yeah, it goes back to like from the first when we were talking about her and Hall in
our coverage of season two, several years ago.
And we were talking about the thematic way in which her and Hall across the various texts
from George has represented this sort of idea of grasping for power.
The fact that it is described as sort of like a hand reaching to the heavens.
And so again, this idea of Alice as someone who had power, had futile power and has been
brought low and was looking to looking to grasp unnatural, you know, put a stopper on
death kind of power that does not belong to humans in this world, but also as a person
who was looking to be restored to as the queen of her and Hall, the lady of her and Hall.
And now she wants to do it with amen and some, some dragon babies.
I ship it.
I'm sure it'll go.
I ship it.
Something that has not gone fine is the relationship between Reneira and Helena.
Reneira is back on her sister bullshit here with Helena trying to get her to eat.
Helena could not possibly be more ready for Reneira in this moment.
Here are some of the things she says to her in response to think of the babe.
You're thinking of him now, just calling Reneira out as a once in future.
Maybe killer.
That was Damon.
That was Damon.
Once a future bitch.
I mean, Helena would say that.
I could see it.
I would wear a shirt that says once in future bitch.
Make it.
Bad babies.
Put it on Etsy for us.
You cannot think I would harm you, Reneira says.
And then that's when we get the great.
Do you think there's nothing more, do you think life is nothing more than not being dead?
Our father would hate you for this.
The most devastatingly of all, all the things you care about are ugly.
This place is ugly.
You yourself, ugly.
Now, we're just like, wait till you see my new eye makeup, though.
And you say that to me again when I wear that.
It's a scroll stopper on Instagram when you see that eye makeup.
It really is.
The withering rebukes for Reneira, like, it would be intense for anybody to say these things,
but undeniably.
There is something about Helena, to borrow Allison's freezing.
The gentilist.
The gentilist of us.
Saying these things, that is just so damning.
I love the Beatles story that happens here.
I mean, at any time, Helena talks about bugs as a treat, but this idea of this beautiful
beetle who embodies the idea of do no harm, right?
It's little shit.
Yeah.
Lives off the waist of ours.
It's not kill to survive is beautiful, even if it's a shitty bug or whatever.
And Reneira is like, can't wait to hear more about this bug.
And she's like, next time.
You're fucking lying.
I know you don't give a shit about this bug, but I just really love that.
Reneira is like, sure.
Can't wait.
The Beatles.
Can't wait.
Helena is like, stop bullshitting me.
He'll have bullshitting me about bugs my whole life.
I'm over it.
I know this is a crazy and horrifying.
Of course.
Yeah.
To watch the force feeding that happens when Reneira walks out.
Absolutely horrifying.
The fact that Reneira, you know, because she's like, don't, again, don't make me do this.
The bullshit, the faux, this is, you're forcing my hand.
This is a choice for Nair's making.
The, to your camera angle point, you know, we get, like, we see Reneira is not torn
up about this.
So that's painful to confront.
And the back, the way that we see these Targaryen soldiers pinning, holding Helena down and
ladling forcefully, food into her throat in the background, Reneira in the foreground,
like that was just really, really good.
And I thought, you know, Reneira has spent so much of the season, whether it was like
assessing Orman's strategy and intention, or, you know, if we go back to last season,
something like auto orchestrating in the wake of Damon's, like I had to be clear, blood
and cheese fiasco, the Reneira, the cruel harbinger at, Jair, Jair, Jair's funeral procession.
Um, calm by his real name.
I got like baseball, baseball head, little seam neck, yeah.
Just really big stitches.
So worried that I was going to just roll off all the time.
You know, Reneira has been thinking very actively and talking in the show about this,
they will call me Megor returned, right?
This Megor the cruel comp that we know her enemies, her foes are actively seeking to cultivate.
In a scene like this with Helena, you feel it's certainly in the baila scene with the
grabbing in the face, obviously with what's going to happen with the high septum, with
this scene with Helena, there's this like perception that Reneira feared and was seeking
to fend off and was very conscious of, which only makes it more devastating to really
watch this transition from who do you think I am?
She says constantly to Allison, to Damon and like what?
Yes, or do you think I'm capable of?
Exactly.
And then she's like, guess what?
Yeah.
From Reneira's delight to Megor returned to Reneira's delight was never really a good
appellation.
Remember when I got this like the ramps tonight talking to Lair since season two about
what he wanted everyone was so fucked up in the show.
It's great.
Time for Reneira to debut a new look and it is so spectacular that we would like to see
it once again.
What's that spectacular?
We've got some notes on the policy, but no, no, it's not the fit.
Dripp queen.
So the male and the armor conveying strength, martial strength, masculinity for sure.
The Sarah's crown still there to convey that legitimacy.
I was just chosen air.
I am the one who has inherited this prophecy.
The eye makeup, Joanna.
Tell us everything.
Splendid.
Well, I really liked your assessment that it looked sort of like a slitted pupil of a
dragon's eye.
It's not really exactly what they said in the behind the scenes.
They said we're pain.
Yeah, we're pain that they were looking for sort of this like rusted red bloody crusty
and that both the makeup artists and Emma Darcy were sort of experimenting with like something
they wanted Reneira.
Alinda didn't do this.
Reneira did this.
Right.
So like they were just sort of like smearing it around.
Alinda was too busy like saying to break up with the whole.
Yeah, exactly.
Monitoring Helena.
Alinda had a lot on our plate.
Always does.
Always does.
So it seems like Emma Darcy at one point in the makeup chair just kind of went like this
and they showed it to Ryan Ryan told us in the interview that they showed it to Ryan
and said, that's sick.
Looks great.
I think it's awesome.
I thought some people who did not like this look at all.
Really?
I think it looked well.
There's people who just like love to not like things but like this image came out before
the episode.
I saw a lot of people critiquing armor.
I just think it's a fantastic look.
I think the armor looks great.
I think the makeup looks great.
I think the way in which it just sort of like really hardens her makes her so scary.
She talks about Emma Darcy talked in again.
I think no one talks more intelligently about their character than Emma Darcy does but
this idea again of this idea of taking a page at Mormons book and wrestling down some
iconography and this fissistic imagery.
It was very, it's funny.
The Darth Vader comp has come up a bunch in the behind the scenes.
You hate it.
I don't love it.
What it makes me think of is Donald Gleason as the first order, that sort of like Star Wars
fissistic imagery in the Force Awakens.
That was in all the trailers for the Force Awakens.
Just sort of like barking out about the first order with the banners sort of all around
him and stuff like that.
Yeah.
I love that Emma comment raneer is cognizant of the image making.
Our girl has come up so many times today and I think it feels right at the end of the
season to be talking about it a little bit as much.
She doesn't.
But that coaching session with Raneer on the press pacifian petitions for the first
time in episode three which we love so much.
Really thinking about what is every single choice get a convey to somebody.
Raneer has been primed for this, thinking about what would it mean to hold a sword, what
would it mean to her chain, et cetera, to her jewels.
So the deliberate nature of every single one of those choices really feels like a rewarding
place to have built.
I think that the winged, the dragon winged armor, shoulder blade thing, you see the convey
dragon strength and the Targaryen inheritance.
But just the confinement of the face and neck in particular with the male, the way that
the hair that right exactly the idea of just like stifling and suppressing whatever
humanity remains in order to craft and forge the image that you think the realm demands
of you is a boy really hit, really hit.
Jofy has a new look too.
Yeah, little prince link.
Do you think that these two have had a conversation while he was awake before this
moment.
Other conversation I don't know.
In the litter over to the sept, Raneer sees queen of bastards scrawled in the walls and
it's the cementing, right?
The cementing of this focus on legitimacy and needing to reinforce it that has led Raneer
or so astray but has been so central.
The fact that like when the queen of bastards with the strong sigil scroll came up earlier
in the season, Raneer saw it as a threat.
And now like it's the thing she sees right before she shifts into that different tone of
voice and tells Jofy about the prophecy and then of course goes to the sept and does
what happens there.
Now it's just further vindication, right?
It's one more reason, one more bit of proof that all the choices she's making are necessary.
Interesting.
So that was interesting.
Here's what she says to John.
Interesting assessment.
Queen of bastards.
I need to think about it.
Yeah.
Did you think of the Instagram carousel before the finale that was like queen of bastards?
I can't remember the exact phrasing for Amen then Agon but the Amen one was like one
eyed, Kinsler or something and then the Agon was basically like he's back.
So funny.
Really great.
Did you see Emma's speaking of Instagram carousels, Emma did a sort of like thanks so much
for everyone who worked on this season and one of my favorites was there was an overhead
shot of Viserys' crown and a post it that said soft.
And so I think it was just sort of like in terms of like hero props like this is one of
the ones that was like made of rubber.
Incredible.
You know, because I'm sure it was like quite more comfortable to wear the rubber version
than but like when when Renera has to sort of grasp it and look at it, you don't want
it flopped around.
So you've got the metal version of it as well.
I like to think it's also just a little don't go in Viserys soft soft.
Soft.
Viserys on our mind certainly here we don't see the full conversation between Renera
and Joffrey but she begins we've seen it and we'll see it again.
It's in short order in front of the masses.
The setup I thought this was really interesting to compare and contrast when Renera told
Jayce which of course she directly invokes in this scene, you know the moment where she
told Jayce because both this with Tumble Tone folding elsewhere and the moment she told
Jayce Rooks rest are on the eve of battle.
So there's some like urgency to why she is sharing this but the substance and tone are
so distinct like when she's telling Jayce, first of all she says I never told you because
I was unsure that I believed in myself.
So we're in a position of doubt and doubt is actually healthy and good and normal and important
to be in a position where you're like is this right?
Is this okay?
Should I seek more counsel?
Should I pursue more wisdom?
That's not the tone here.
It's not the tender here.
It's not where Renera is.
And then there's also just the difference between like I had to exhaust every path for
peace into we are in a moment of violent embrace.
Well, I think there's a couple of things of course that are different here.
One is that Renera has hardened herself to letting Joffrey in the same way that she
let.
Yes.
Poor Luceris and Deseris and right.
So a lot of grief.
Yeah.
So she's like I'm not up for this.
Yeah.
Right.
I can't do that anymore.
Like heart and version of myself.
Like I'm your mother and I am the monarch and all this or stuff like that.
But also given the way that she delivers this information later on to the masses.
Yeah.
Much to your delight.
My favorite.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not this is a prophecy you need to know for the future.
I am the prince who was promised.
I am.
It's not one along the line will be you might be.
Might be one of our ancestors.
It's me right now.
I light the way and I am the chosen I am the chosen one.
Not I need to be on the throne so that one of my ancestors can be the chosen one.
It's me.
It's so gnarly if you really play out the string on that because what does that mean?
It means like almost in some sick twisted warped way.
You need the apocalyptic cataclysm in order to just to find definitively prove that you
are the one it's dangerous.
He's happened now so you guys all know and nobody like nobody doubts that I was right to
do this.
Good.
Off.
We'll get back to her in here in the set shortly.
Okay.
Wait, it's going to go well right?
Everything's fine for all of the characters.
They're all thriving and doing great.
Lots of winners in this episode.
Go ahead.
Our beloved Gohan and Darren are watching Orman load the children onto the battlements and
freak out at smelly, proximate, downspi and panic whisper with Paul John Rockston and Darren
is like, they're hiding it even from me.
So Orman of course with the kids.
Plane is still like, you know, deterrent.
Maybe they won't burn the kids but plan B just as good to Orman is maybe they will and
then make our return.
And for him he's like win-win.
Doesn't know that he's about to be dead.
Tough one for Orman.
Oh well.
Darren.
Oh.
By the way, on House of Dragons built not to jump out to Orman's death, but Tommy flying
in and I'm paraphrasing being like, bum up the ass delightful way to go and then Dragon
Fire was really something.
Here's the best part.
A part and that quote.
Here's the best part of House of Dragons built.
Yeah.
They had two subtitled on the plan again because his accent was so thick.
They had to subtitle him on the lake.
He's sitting there with his like sunglasses on.
He's like gigantic fount by the way.
He's sitting there in his sort of like at rest sunglasses on interview and he's just sort
of like, yeah, it's like that scene from Hot Fuzz where you have no idea what people
are saying.
It's so funny.
Great movie.
Here's what he said.
James gets a knife that size and he goes like this.
Up his bum.
Yeah.
It's a life away to die.
Dragon comes in and burns his breath.
And then they show you show them like embracing after he's like done the bent over like
shove up gesture.
Yeah.
Man, James Jordan really had to go through some stuff on it.
It was like 30 cups of Campbell suit mix when he had to be a girl here in the season.
I don't know.
I think the person who had it the hardest in this behind the scenes was, is it Karen Boe?
Was that a huge brother?
Yeah.
He just started running.
And they were like everyone just wanted to go to lunch and everyone was hungry and he's
like 25 more.
He's like my armor is so heavy.
That was really funny.
Oh my God.
Darren doesn't want anyone to die for him.
Real man of the people.
I call this the anti-jaffery.
What we saw from Darren in this episode where he's like I must take wing.
I got to get it.
It's the opposite.
Did my mother say that she had urgent business?
You know?
Did my husband see it in her golden breast?
Oh, you did me.
His options are to fight or to flee.
And goans like I might have another option come with me to this interesting little fella
storage.
Where Coralus says this really reminded me both actually the visuals of just Coralus
against the wall but also the substance of what they're saying of the Varus Ned.
Oh yeah.
Pretty balor.
Obviously deliberately they're framing it in a similar way.
But first of all, I was like Coralus has got jokes like the poicking in his squad.
Very funny.
But the Ned Varus vibes not only the setting just that like Coralus has given a lot of
Ned like I grew up with soldiers.
I learned how to die a long ago when he says my honors all that remains to me.
Do you really think I would hawk it for high tower coin?
But then there's the kind of like madness of mercy.
Yeah.
Ultimately here about thinking about the cost more of the broad costs for the realm here
than the very specific like what about your daughter's life.
But still.
Oh, and the brew.
Here's the thing about going pitch it is and we absolutely love going.
We are I think co presidents of the going Freddy Fox's going high tower fan club.
This pitch was never going to work and it was I don't even know.
Frankly kind of stupid.
I don't even know what I mean, I just said that he's like coming under the banner of
Carla.
So he's like saying but like never going to say it.
It's just like him with like a dagger and some chains in his hand.
I'm like, what do we think we were accomplishing here worth it for the moment.
Where going lifts his foot so that Coralus can take one step back down this
terrible.
Um, Damon, you know, he and a crack to his have arrived.
They've got to pause from talking shit about Kristen who got one more dunk here.
It's like, oh, so easy to forget.
Gauin introduces himself to Damon.
Yeah, you this upset you.
They've just it.
They've just it.
I thought this was weird.
I'm moving on.
What I will say is if he going was like, I was so
unmemorable.
That would be sad.
I feel confident he fully did his way through every turn he went to and I support it.
So you mentioned the horse dismounting that I've gotten served versions of that real like
no fewer than 7,000 times.
I've watched every single one.
It's the best.
Um, I just like the fact that Matt Smith and Freddie Fox were in a scene together.
We deserve it.
We really we deserve it.
Genuinely two of the greats.
Roddy is taunting Gauin mercilessly, but Gauin ignores him long enough to say, oh,
think that Alice in the book, Alice and his credited with presenting this just divide
the kingdom.
The timing's a little different.
It's Reneira has taken King's Landing and there's this real desperate like, well, we
want to thumb what we just split it all up.
She's like too late, bitch queen into the golden shackles with you.
First of all, then first of all, now no question.
And Coraless jumps in with a suggestion that is not any more effective, ultimately, uh,
make Darren Warden of the South, wed him to Reneira, reach the divide.
Now, of course, very few characters in the show better position than Coraless to think
about the impact or of the presence or absence of a marriage pact with the Targaryens, right?
I mean, who can forget 12 year old Lena walking through the dragons must be lonely too.
Sometimes I think back to that moment.
This show went for from day one and no one can say otherwise.
I'm on this and I don't have to sleep with you until I'm 14.
Remember that.
Oh my gosh.
I'm seriously so
striking.
And he's like, I don't know how old is Alice in supposed to be 16?
I'll go for the 16 year old instead, much more reasonable.
Oh God.
So here's what Damon says in response to Coraless is, uh, update on the pitch.
Go ahead and he's just like, fuck off, right?
Coraless, um, basically calls him a traitor for suggesting any of this and says it was your wife,
who was passed over Coraless.
Reneira sees the throne with a horde of dragons for Rulis now on a saleable.
A lot of unassailable rule talk from Damon, interesting that even in inside of the,
uh, Targaryen line, Damon, Reneira, the idea of their line, their children will rule it forever in a day.
The prophecy, what Damon saw at Harren Hall, what Reneira has been told.
There's targ supremacy for them, even inside of the Targaryen line, which was really reinforced by a comment like that.
And then Damon just like full mailed fist chokes going and is like, you can die like a fucking rat or right here.
I was scared.
You say, yeah, I was worried.
Um, I, what I think is interesting was what we're watching, which you'll conflicted about, but like a series of men discover that war is bad actually, right?
So this is like Kristen Kohl's experience at Rook Ratt works press, right?
And then this is Kohl's experience at the gullet, right?
If this be victory, I hope to never experience it again.
And then this is Damon's seemingly experienced here at Dumbleddon.
And so Kohl is here saying like, what do you want from this?
Do you want a pile of dead, high tower bodies?
Or do you actually want peace?
It feels like it's directly, I mean, it's not like he became squeamish.
He went out and he was just like, breathe in her loot of just murdering pirates, murdering a ton of tried different from war.
I guess, you know, where he's just sort of like it's not up to it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But he's like, I've seen what it's like, yes, to do battle like this.
I don't know.
I need to keep the heat.
It is interesting because Kristen still feels to me like it was really, you know,
Kristen made sense to me.
Yes.
And it was really about what does it mean to just be a mortal man in a dragon war?
And then he still led all of his men to their deaths.
And only at the last second was like, what if you let them go?
And I like this idea that like Damon, understanding what it's like to be on the wrong side of dragon warfare,
which he's, you know, because I was thinking I was like, well, when he was at the stepstones,
like he definitely saw, he was definitely on the ground when dragon fight, he was having happening above,
but all the dragons were on his side.
So he has never been on the other side, right?
Of an army that had, because a big R fucked off an army that was like actually fighting against him.
So to feel that for the person, like barring,
I don't know, Ranera drop in Syracuse on the bridge at Dragonstone.
Right.
Screeching from across the bridge or sheepstealer charging him down from the moon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The moon and the stars in the field last week, obviously, when he was fighting sheepie.
But yeah, it's a different perspective for Damon and there's a level of culpability that he has to
get strong.
It's like a family skirmish.
Yeah.
Family skirmish versus the family skirmish that is the dance.
And it's just sort of like, uh, that's, I don't know.
I'm so processing it.
Like I do think that people, people who are like, it makes sense to me that Damon would have.
This be taken aback by the children that be burned and the screaming babies and the women,
because they were not at the fish feed, you know, these sort of like,
in a sense like mothers and children and stuff like that.
I don't know.
I just think it's interesting like who, who this revolution is available to versus not.
And what he'll do with it.
And I think the fact that again, in response to like,
well, don't you want peace?
What about peace?
The thing he says yet again is a new valeria will rise from the ashes of her you serve her
half brothers.
Pre-tambi.
Right.
But so for him to have to like, well, what do the ashes actually look like?
If you're babies, yeah.
If you're constantly the one saying from the, like, yeah,
courting dragon war, telling Reneira constantly, we have the edge in the dragon mat.
Yeah.
And then this is what it looks like.
I would want, whether it totally tracks or not, I would want any character looking at that
to be like, fuck.
Also, I just think he's badly concussed.
And probably grappling with the fact that John Roxie was kicking his ass.
Tough one.
Speaking of tough ones.
Amon, do you want to phrase, I love having your bell rung?
Bell rung, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, they have this bell rung for sure.
And yes, absolutely.
Oh, it makes me think of the other one.
I love that flashback in the carcross time.
Wonderful stuff.
Some starts to do some fucked up shit in this episode.
Starkman, not actual Stark's.
We'll talk about it.
Dostance, Winter Wolves, Greybeards.
Some blondes before we get to the Greybeards.
Amon wakes up from his dreams and he is woken by the Targaryen alarm.
Begar?
The beating of dragon wings.
Dragon mummy.
Dragon for them.
But it's not Begar.
It's not her to beans.
It is sweet, son of iron, his crispy king.
Let's see it.
He's gonna be.
He will.
Dead.
I'm alive.
In Basil.
This is so good.
Blind rid of the season.
There's no question.
From the you surproud brought us to war then.
I mean.
I'm alive.
I'm alive is so funny.
It's instantly indelible and iconic really great.
I thought I thought the no no no no.
This was supposed to be fun.
It was very amusing really good.
There's a lot to talk about in the scene.
So Amon begs for forgiveness.
Falls to his knees right away.
There's the shock, right?
But also there is the contrition.
Saying to him, I coveted what you had.
I judged you unsuited rightly.
But he was like talking about it to Kristen Cole in his dumb hat from the work go.
It's it is I who is.
Fluent and Valerian.
Exactly.
I've been to therapy.
Yeah boy has a hair and all therapy man.
I've been dream dream journaling.
Yeah.
My mom tried to kill me mom tried to kill me.
I've gone through a lot.
Fuck to hot mom.
Sure did.
While dreaming of fucking their actual mom.
We're gonna get married.
Alice is face when he said for truth and then Agon's face was just so good.
I love the scene.
Agon is in real like an eye for an eye vengeance mode, but he needs.
Hey Gar.
He needs Alice.
He needs support.
He needs Amon.
He needs big.
I was like maybe I'll think about forgiving you if you help me get these shit heels in
line in trouble.
And then put Renier's head on a spike.
So this is a big show.
Move.
Yeah.
This is not in the books.
Now we had been talking in the spoiler section a lot this season about how is the show
gonna pay off this mutual obsession that these characters have with each other if they
don't interact.
And here's the answer.
The answer is they do interact on the show.
We got this scene.
What happens after this?
We don't know.
You and Mitchell was talking in the inside the episode about the kind of like the choice
will he stay with Alice?
Will he go with Agon?
So this is like new story to us.
We don't know.
Right.
The fact that because Alice is like, uh-uh.
She's like you need to stay.
You're dragging a band in you.
You need to stay real shift from like maybe she left to protect you.
That is dragging a band in a me can't go funny.
There's certainly high companies from everyone in this moment.
Certainly room to introduce a scene like this because much about Agon and this stretch
of the story is unknown.
Where is he?
Piste out.
We don't know.
And then we find out.
So like there's room to play here.
And I think you know as you talked about on Sunday on Talk the Thrones.
Not only is there room to play, it.
These two character arcs and the entwinement on the show like we need.
We need these character beats.
Both of us seem was.
Pretty good.
I really liked it.
Pretty entertaining.
I listened to JJ wrote in on the response to my betrothed moment.
JJ said when even called Alice my betrothed, I imagine a sitcom style smash cut to poor
nameless Baratheon girl, not Marist.
That's all loaned storm's ends.
That's all the Baratheon men are out quote fighting the quote, Dornish threat, heaving a heavy
sigh.
It would have been hysterical to get yet another Baratheon mentioned if Agon had been
like, but what about, but that would require Agon to have paid a look of attention to
that any point.
That would require that Baratheon girl to have a name.
Exactly.
Well, exactly.
What about a name Baratheon girl?
I liked the contrast in, you know, disposition.
Agon is like, he's also seeing in Sunfire what the realm sees and what Renera fears
that people see this, this sanctioning, right?
He's really like newly confident determined the way he says even like, we'll go under my
banner, no room for any confusion anymore.
I thought the setting choice to not just hair and hop, but like inside of hair and
hop was really perfect because the great hall of hair and hop like where the great council
was, you know, where all of this began with the great choosing was selecting Viserys
over Rene's perfect place for this exchange, but also just the fact that even though we
don't know exactly what choice Aimein is going to make, this is also where Renera flew
in on Syracuse.
Damon was amassing the Riverman Army and was like, put up or shut up time, buddy.
Pledge your field tea or we have a problem and he gets everyone to kneel for.
Yeah.
He swore to, uh, swore to all this queen.
Um, swore to me.
What is that queen up to?
Glad you asked.
Not great stuff I would say.
Making a very public push compared to Agon's very private one, you know, did the butter
churner witness this?
Who can say?
Did the goats witness it?
Who can say?
A lot of people for sure witnessed what Renera is about.
There aren't goats.
There's one goat and it's also Alice.
I just got such a, I had such a thrill out of seeing the goat on the tapestry prop and
house the dragon's belt.
That was really a treat.
Um, or a while back in the middle of the season.
Season three episode four asked Renera after Renera's confrontation with high septum
ballman.
Doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter.
But also, uh, are we killing?
That's right.
We moved.
Boy, life comes at your fast.
Are we?
A little joke about killing the high septum to life.
Are we killing septums?
Yeah.
No, I would never.
Apparently we are.
Uh, Renera has to now counter the Agon hype machine.
The high septum is not only no more compelled than he was previously.
He's like, I told you I needed a body and guess what I got one.
My boy is fat.
I have an imbecile princess.
Um, I think you may have six dragons, but I have a seven face god is a sick comeback.
Might as well be a lot of whipping.
You know what I mean?
No question.
Get the bars out there while you can.
To harm me is it's a clear war upon the starry set.
Now he told Renera in the third episode.
You would be wise to take me seriously.
You would be wise to take the faith seriously.
Not only like the people need us, but don't make an enemy of the faith.
And in addition to having that direct warning from this character who she is about to order
Alan to stab and plane sight of all assembled.
Um, there's a lot of his story precedent, including her small son.
I had a lot of like, oh my god, what is Josh remaking of all of this pangs for this
sweet young boy.
And his.
What is your to be?
No, no, no.
Great crown though, what she said.
Um, the history between us, we talked about earlier in the season, like the faith and
the Targaryens is quite fraught.
And of all the targish who had a rough go with it, uneasy detente quite.
Guess you had trouble maintaining even that uneasy detente.
McGar.
Correct.
The exact comfort Neera doesn't want.
McGar the cruel.
McGar I love to kill.
Boy, I just think also like, Renera being so focused understandably on what does the public
think?
What do they think of me?
What do they think of Egon?
But not worrying about like, what are they going to think of me killing this guy?
Well, that's because she has not updated her dragon math.
And she says I have six dragons.
That's tough.
Babe, tough.
No.
Okay.
We're very, very tough.
Um, can I make a email from my listener, Addison?
Who gave us a real sort of like crunchy version of history here?
I just got to get a ring with the email.
1170.
King Harry the Second was annoyed at the archbishop of Canterbury.
Thomas Beckett, aka his whole, his old chess bestie.
Because he didn't love the overreach from the crown into the church.
Thomas Beckett goes, Pope over the King, honey.
I see your king and raise you a Pope.
Probably the wrong thing to say to the king.
So King Harry the Second is like Thomas Beckett needs to go to sleep like forever.
And also he's back from Maccile and English soil, but he's in sanctuary in the cathedral,
like whatever.
Okay.
Actually King Harry the Second says this iconic line quote, well, no one rid me of this
turbulent priest.
Incredible.
Oh, I think.
Four of us nice take that seriously.
And maybe it was sounding a bit like blood and cheese and get into Canterbury Cathedral
and they try to drag Thomas out.
They can't.
So they murder him in the cathedral doing a big sacrilegious rut row.
Everyone can read up on how all of that ended up unfolding.
Sacrilegious rut rows.
Really funny.
This email's great.
To quote one of the curators of the episode, team, a call from inside the episode killing
the ice.
That isn't sane.
You know, she's killed the Pope.
That's the exact religious rut row.
You quoted earlier in the pod, Alison's commentary on the state of inevitability, the morality,
et cetera.
When we think back to ring mirrors, response to Alison to an Alison was like, you will
do things that your heart would have recoiled from before you came to the throne.
When you're said, I acknowledge the struggle.
I dispute that I must become what I am not.
And Alison gave her the old time.
We'll tell.
And now it has.
Time has told.
When you're just like, you know, how can Alison not be on our minds not only because of
that, but this slaying of the high septent takes place in front of their one of their
favorite spaces.
The candle table at the sept.
They're bestie canoes ring.
This place that for Alison to earn Europe multiple times across the years and then, you
know, briefly and more comically, you're on Damien.
Okay.
It might be really hard.
Maybe it's too late.
It's too late, Renera moment.
Can we find a path to peace being like the fouled with the blood of the faith here?
Can I give a season long question?
Please.
Like, how on the sort of like subtlety of the writing front?
Yeah.
I think Alison saying like five different times like, hey, Renera, you're going to do bad
things now that you're the monarch and Renera being like, no, no, no, oops I did.
Is like, yeah, not the deftest weave inside of the season, I would say.
Still below Reyna saying, uh, I wanted to drag in my whole life and now I have one and
it's really rough.
Renera is ready.
Renera doesn't need another pass.
I need to make a speech to the masses, shows the prophecy with everyone.
And I will say I was struck by a couple of things.
Visual contrast to where we found Renera in the same location earlier in the season.
Rudabaga, Rudabaga, Rudabaga.
Alms for the small folk.
The, I think it was Claire.
We talked about this on that pop, but like Claire talking about the kind of like, saintly
imagery.
And that scene right.
I'm telling her, yeah.
Yeah.
And this is obviously a drastically different, despotic, militant display.
Upshot sort of.
Yeah.
Um, sharing the prophecy, I don't have anything to say here about the choice.
Like I'm on the record.
It doesn't track for me.
That's okay.
It does track inside of the show.
There's a difference to me between Inshine and Inshine and Inshine across the canon.
Well, it's been, it had been like a fun, mysterious puzzle for us to a nod.
And now it's just sort of like, okay, never mind.
Yes.
But we talk a little bit more in the spoiler section.
We got some listener thoughts on this, but I do like, like this idea of like, and, and
condolce this and, and certainly the show depicts this that everyone watching her is like,
what is this crazy lady talking about, right?
No question.
Nobody watching this is like, this is normal and good.
I shall remember this.
I remember this and until all of the septons when they're running down the history of this,
there just to be like, that lady was a rambling and I had no idea what she was talking about.
And then she switched to a different language altogether.
So like, this lady was rambling.
I had no idea what she was talking about.
And then she switched to a different language altogether is exactly the kind of thing that
is commemorated in Fire and Blood.
Oh, honestly, exactly the kind of thing that is meant.
So this is my, I, my personal like, this is what I just, here we are.
And then the side of the show, I think that Renera making this choice makes sense.
Does it align with Fire and Blood and this, this not making the history?
Does it totally track with some stuff in Game of Thrones proper?
No.
It is what it is.
No.
I do like thinking of the Night King being like, dragon fire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but of course for the character, there's a lot to talk about here in terms of just
like, what is driving Renera and what is on display.
So invoking the doom, first of all, she's like, I was long before my dad.
Yeah, we've talked a lot about the stairs long before my daddy shows me I was ordained.
Right.
Let me tell you about the doom.
And they're like, what?
They're not interested.
You know, it was interesting on the house, the dragons built that we got.
Obviously, they did different takes.
There was a lot like a heckling and booing.
But that was not what made the, there was more of a just sort of like the muse silent reception,
which is effective and tells us something in a different way.
But taking from the doom of Valeria, the wrong lesson, like we were the only dragon
riding family to escape because we're chosen and not the, oh boy, wait, are we bringing
about another doom tracks for where we find our near and now certainly invoking an ancient
and sinister darkness.
The look Chris was very excited by this.
The look that passed between, you know, we get a land of always during the foreign
north.
Um, the look that passes between torn mandrelay and for a while and torn mandrelay
the north who's from the north and is like, what the hell?
All the north and a learn like, what are you talking about?
Well, I mean, maybe or they're like, should we talk about this?
But either way, they're track, they're track, they're specific that other people are
possibly, but I read that as just sort of like, Lenny, this lady, right?
I did hear you're, you like love to say, kook, kook, bananas, which is, I could like
hear you in my head saying kook, bananas.
I just, I'm very, very fun experience.
I think she was like, you were there with me.
I think that makes us, she's so good.
Yeah.
She's really, I think she's killing it.
Croshing it.
Croshing it.
She's like, I did.
I like the way.
I bet this only drag and fire.
Okay.
So here's a question.
And this one, I was too hung up with my bugaboo to like focus on this the first time
around, but this was something I was thinking about a lot, probably from the deep dive.
Yeah.
Renera is very high tower focused and to an extent that makes sense.
But here's the thing.
While team green is high tower fueled and high tower coded, the actual challengers for
the throne are dragon riders.
Yeah, but they're dark, dark towers.
They're, but if Egon hears about this, he can just say, I also am a Targaryen dragon
rider.
So I can say I can pull that prophecy.
He's not going to say that because he's going to be like, because how he's going to hear
about is this your sister read the most cookbook in anisee.
And no one's going to share any words of substance about what she said.
Oh, if you say so, she's cooked was tyrant on your mind.
You know, the old enemy man who needs to say I'm king when Renera was like, I'm the
prince.
I'm the prince chosen and then switching Tyve Larry and fry and the prince that was promised
now, a lot of people fall into the any man who needs to say I'm king is no king camp,
but really palpable here was Renera certainly.
Uh, Joph, as you notice seems just, you know, really taken it all in.
He's like, can I go back to sleep?
Really taken it all in?
I was like, I was loving those snaps as you just calmly and quietly sat by my side, not
saying that you were a Renera the chosen.
Missaria watching her.
Yes.
We'll talk about that in this further section.
That's, this is like a book change.
Uh, right.
That I think a lot of us who are book readers are drawing the same conclusion from.
Yeah.
Yes.
Uh, and the assembled, you think did a little bit of the drawer of, you know, they don't
care what games the high lords play from the, from the crowd there.
Or you think they do care and they just, they're like less of this.
Yeah.
More root of beggars.
I mean, yeah, I miss the root of beggars is what they said.
Well, the root of beggars in Tumble Tinner about to be on fire because the battle is going
to be.
Yeah, that sounds delicious actually.
Prophecy talk from Manera, intercut with the scenes of mortal man-readying for a war
very effective in terms of the editing of that sequence.
Give me a little bit of a, um, battle of Winterfell long night vibe, but like inverted
in the sense that we see all of the townspeople who are imperiled, but like in the north in
season eight of Thrones, there's such a desperate effort to protect them.
And here it's all like, what are we willing to do to them or who could be upon?
Oh, you mean when they huddled them down into the Winterfell crypts?
It was always going to be fine.
It nobody had ever mentioned that the Night King raised the dance.
It was always going to be fine.
It was, you know, I was, it's so, thank you for mentioning that because I was going
to sleep in it.
I think about pure dinklage trying to explain why Tyrion wanted his smartest characters
in the show.
And if by the graves, by the tombs, I, I am glad you, you said that because I was like
trying to gird myself to come in today and say, I'm going to stop bitching about how it
doesn't totally make sense that Reneira would just tweet out the prophecy.
And then I remembered that it's been seven years since John didn't pet Ghost Goodbye
and I've not stopped talking to you about it once and I will.
Sorry.
All right, Damien and his lieutenants, they planned their approach.
We can talk about main gates, poster gates, etc.
Here's the thing, there's just really one like thing to focus on for everyone that is
this.
Take every care to preserve the town and its people around is watching the Queen's moral
standing.
Must remain absolute, right, bro?
Black Ali responds to this before we see Rodney the ruin, happily drive his acts into
a young boy's face before Damien reluctantly but ultimately, Dracarises.
A gate, the gate where a couple kids still stand.
Black Ali says to the sounds boring.
And this is really a deliberate choice of this episode made.
We were talking about Reneira's descent where we find Damien, these, the entire team black
faction.
I mean, Alan stabs the high septin, Roddy, a character like, right, they're doing cool
fuck.
Yeah, oh, black Ali, awesome.
They're happy to murder legions of innocence, happy to.
So this is a weaponizing of our affection for these groups of characters.
Can I, yeah, we got this really great email from our listener, Simon, about sort of the
way, an interesting defense of not giving us more Roddy the ruin this season, right?
Let's hear it.
Simon says, a song of ice empire readers and Game of Thrones watchers are primed to sympathize
with the North, due to our narrative focus on the Starks and the main series.
And so this Northern dude who sounds like the great John is going to be inherently sympathetic.
However, this narrative, we say that the great John is inherently sympathetic.
However, your mate is bloody tough.
This narrative can often obscure the backwardness and cruelty inherent to the North, the right
of the first night, the bleak generational calling of the Northern winter and the relative
weakness of antelinstitutions like the Mastres or the faith.
We don't really think about these things because we think about the honorable Ned who grew
up in the veil or the dashing rob who is arguably more a tully than a Stark.
So to see Roddy the ruin finally given a good amount of screen time in the finale and
to find out that his characterization is less the charismatic soldier and more a caricature
of bloodlust and a borderline suicidal warrior mentality really works to further problematize
the black side of the battle.
Throughout the episode, almost all of his dialogue boils down to one of two categories.
Yay, I can't wait to die or insert homophobic battle talk here.
In fact, we are primed to like Roddy because he's Northern only to see him be much more
unsavory than we're expecting really works for this reason.
He is not Ned.
He's not even the great John.
Honestly, he seemed more like Victorian to me than anyone else.
Aluny Viking who's since serious ambition is just to go to Valhalla and it doesn't matter
how many kids he acts as in the face to get there.
I think it's no accident that he exchanges words with Kristen at the pre-butchers ball
parlay in season three episodes six.
Nobody says what better way to die than with a blade in hand to another knight who was
on a quest of suicidal nihilism, envisioning his own glorious death and battle.
In Tumble tin, we get to see Roddy live Kristen's fantasy and it is ugly to the core.
I will push back on one thing in the email, which is just that I think a lot of the end
of Game of Thrones hinges on a lot of the North or not, not even the end.
I mean, the Bolton's, the Umbers, the Carstarks.
There's a ton of houses in the North that we actively consider villains.
So I don't think we have a the North broadly is like a holy, I, I, I, the start, the fact
that the Winter Wolves came to us through Kring and Stark as his gray beards, the Stark,
Halo and Gleam.
I mean, I don't just agree and they're holding the winter, they're holding the Stark
sigil.
Like, of course, there are Northern houses that we despise.
But I think in a sort of broader, the North remembers sort of sense, especially people
who do not like go into granular detail with the text and are just sort of like, who are
the good guys in this world?
Yeah, for sure.
No question.
I think the larger point stands and to see them wearing clothing, you know, we've jokes
about how like the fashions haven't changed in like for many years, the North are wearing
the exact same thing, but he's just like wearing.
Yes.
Like an old version of Jon Snow.
Yeah.
I said the same thing before he read the email.
Like, I feel that too.
And I think it's a very deliberate and effective choice on the, the shows part.
I, I think there's a little bit of Northern nuance inside of it that's very, um, cord of
the cannon.
But it was interesting to think back to like the Roddy Kristen moment in the email, or
the point in the email, like we were talking about that in the butcher's ball scene is like,
why is Roddy's positioning and framing of can't wait to die?
And we welcome an embrace and Kristen isn't and we had a great conversation about that.
And then we're like made complicit for having felt that way because of our relationship
to that really cool fucking moment and we've come to die for the presentation of what
somebody who's holding a stark dire wolf on a sheet.
That's what I mean, like, I don't know actually the finer details of the winter wolves and
like if it's a conscription or if it's just sort of like of your, your of a certain age
or whatever you have to go.
And it seems like the winter wolf mentality is like everyone agrees.
Yes.
We've come to die with the right and queen.
Kristen's bad example.
Exactly.
That point still holds.
Um, yes.
We're going to go home.
The strings are limited.
It's winter.
Let's let the young people like live and eat and feed and we'll go, we'll go actually
leave all whom to die of the right.
Kristen's like, I mean, the stress for everyone.
Yeah.
Because of my own ego and need for glory.
One more thing I want to say about, um, Damon giving his beach on, you know, he
rives on cracks.
He's been then he hops over to a, to a horse instead.
Yes.
Uh, our listener Olivia sent him this photo of just sort of this Damon on his horse back
with Caraxi's right over his shoulder.
And his horse has armor with like spikes in the same place that Caraxi's spikes are.
And Olivia wrote, Caraxi's cosplay for Damon's horse.
Cute.
And I think that's really fun.
Damon, uh, you know, the original dragon helm that we saw him in when he was joust
and go in who either doesn't remember that they've met or think Damon more likely doesn't
remember that they've met.
He's always been very dry and forward in the, in the armor.
So I like that he's extending it to his horse there gives a pep talk from that horse.
The chanting begins, the drums are beating.
Roddy leans the wolves for leads the wolves for the arrows.
The line is there.
But then one hits a man.
He's like, ah, they charge.
That's how it always happens.
Burning oil be damned.
They'll plow ahead no matter what.
The kids are pissing themselves and puking on the battlements.
He's like acts to the face.
He's tapped me on the calf here.
It goes.
And Damon is receiving some updates as well.
He gets an updated office not with his dragon worrying.
Then he sees Vermithor fly overhead and he's like, he was supposed to be at the dragon pit.
Right.
Later we'll see Hugh running into the town screaming for his soon to be dead wife cat and
Damon's like, what's up with that?
So he's clocking a lot.
Almost like they should have anticipated that he would not want to stay in King's Landing
when the city where they know his wife to be is under attack bit of a mystery there.
And then the Greens move the cluster of children in front of the gate that Damon is marching
caraxies toward.
And he tells them to move and most of them do.
But a couple stay and he's like, I don't want to do it.
But I kind of have to do that.
Definitely.
Definitely kill those kids.
I think they ran.
I mean, they ran.
I think they got away.
No.
They ran.
They're definitely dead.
I mean, they ran.
Maybe they weren't that in many way.
They ran.
They died.
Less before they ran and tried to escape.
He said for cars with two kids standing there and that is fucking yikes stuff from our
guy, Damon Targaryen.
Caraxies bursting his head through the charred wood though was awesome.
Looks great.
No, no.
It's for Caraxies.
He's crushing it.
Orman.
As the search for old is continuing and he's shouting for all through the streets.
Messenger comes to tell him, hey, the war has started.
Orman's like, you know, shit.
And he's like, well, it started because Damon rejected the peace term.
From going in Darren.
And Orman's like, excuse me.
The what now?
As who?
What?
And he looks so genuinely astonished and crushed to have been betrayed by Darren and going.
Yeah.
Brutal stuff.
Brutal stuff.
He's humorous, right?
Believing that they were really with him, loyal to him, that old would be loyal to him, etc.
And then it's time to find Wolf Joe and we get a really kind of dramatic, like a little bit of a slow mo kind of switch into the scene.
And then see that all is passed out hammered drunk passed out on in the privy on the shitter hanging down dick visible.
I was going to pick this clip and then I was like, you can see his dick.
So I probably shouldn't.
Snooze and after dropping a doose.
Now we hit the air eyes earlier in the season when this like Orman's smell thing was introduced.
Is a dragon going to take a shit and is that going to be how Orman?
Because we knew Orman was going to die at Tumbleton.
So we've been theorizing.
Is a dragon doose going to be what?
Is a dragon writer doose?
Not I mean, what's the difference really?
Yeah.
I have a lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
A lot of.
Confirmation that that wasn't fact.
A vague our doose.
Okay.
Well, the mystery remains.
Not everything was answered inside of season three.
I didn't back in season four.
I mean, where is vague our is actually still a question.
So we'll file the trail of shit until we find out.
Two season long.
Limitations for Orman.
Killy seal times two.
That smells.
And a short fuse.
Right.
It's got it.
We saw the.
That's tantrum.
Didn't like what was in the scroll.
The slicing of the table with his Valarance deal sword.
And an intolerance sweeping the ignorant people.
That's right.
It's like nine.
Nine different things.
How many heels absorb and tap really?
Nine heels and they're all got twice.
He beats off in the street in a way that reminded us of something that we had seen.
Very recently, Carlos, can we watch this?
You yourself should not understand.
Set foot in the city again and I'll put out your eyes.
What the fuck?
All you had to do was sit on your fucking ragged.
They're inside the walls.
You useless.
Baseball.
So making him feel like a tool upon lesser justice.
Damon had just as obviously Reneira had not in the same physical parallel as Damon.
But this is how Orman recruited and courted all fright.
How this is how they make him embarrassed you in the streets.
I make you feel how they treat you and then just like.
Cause it's not a whiff.
It's not for God.
He kind of forgot about his messaging.
That's a leave of all.
Small, real bad.
You know, poetic to be undone by the thing that his foe does that he thinks he knows better than like.
There's a lot of that in general because he also obviously makes the mistake.
Even after that of ordering off.
Okay, go do the thing that you're supposed to do.
Thinking that he'll just listen to him after he treated him this way.
Reneira is the one who gave the unknown people in the realm.
She doesn't know all.
She doesn't know any of these people.
She gave them weapons of mass destruction.
We spent a lot of time after the sewing episode talking about that.
Right.
To give that kind of power, dragon power to people you don't know.
And who's trust you then don't work to earn and keep is worrying.
Orman didn't give all the dragon, but he commits a version of that sin by thinking.
Do you think there should have been like a verbal test before they did the sewing?
They just kind of heard it everyone on that.
Whatever that word was we learned about what that thing was that they were on.
But like with like a like driver's license, you can like skip.
Because you can only get so many wrong, you know, you can like skip a couple.
You skip on the drivers.
You technically can.
You can if you don't know the answer you can when you get it renewed.
I don't know if you can do that the first time.
Yeah.
Now you're driver's test.
You're licensed.
When you have to do like read the rulebook again.
Of course.
And you're like, it's foggy at night.
Yeah, we thought we thought we had a drive.
It's fine.
Don't worry.
What direction should your wheels be turned if you're parallel parking on a hill?
Oh God.
Great job.
The curb.
Okay.
I loved what James Norton said on inside the episode about this all because one man felt embarrassed.
The power of shame.
It's amazing.
You can have all these huge big armies, big set pieces and the thing which really dictates the story is something so small and domestic.
I heard that and I was like, I'm going to really miss James Norton's Ormond.
But also this guy gets it.
This is what we talk about all the time where you need that human heart to consequence of human decisions.
It's a great battle and a big spectacle.
It's really cool and fun and Tumble too.
And I thought it was pretty cool and fun.
You need character moments like that in this had it.
Well, and also we've talked about sort of the allocation of story resources this season.
Yes.
And just sort of like as we bemoan.
Yes.
A lack of it for Alan or certain other characters.
We could say that all this was carefully plotted and they knew that they knew they were ending with Tumble tin.
Right.
And they knew that all was going to have to betray team black, you know, the book readers knew it.
You know, and so they had to sort of plot that course and they did.
Yes.
They had time and they had a great performer and Tom Bennett and they just like really made all of that work.
And so when he's like, when he's like, fuck both of you.
Yep.
Which is a slight book change.
I want to shout out an actor who's in this episode.
Yeah.
Who, um, when all walks up to silver wing and he's like sort of the emissary from from Damon.
He's like, oh, you know, there you are.
And then they kill him.
For a slit.
Um, that's Darren Evans who I really like who was in, who was a series regular on the show Galovant.
And my math fat diary and he's just like a really distinctive looking like distinctive sounding guy.
So the first show up is like a few scenes earlier in the episode.
I was like, oh, my God, he's going to be an acid dragon.
He said goodbye quickly.
I did make it.
You know, I yourself, and Tom Molten, to say, oh, my God, this guy's a house, he would be a great, like really fun guy to have on house of the dragon.
And, and, and I'm sorry for you, I'm more and for you.
Thank you.
I'm more and for the leaders of the dead, such a distinctive voice.
Oh, my God.
And then he was gone dead.
Dead.
A lot of people are about to be dead because all of us heading for for silver ring.
And before we get the burning on, on, on all sides, we get a little rocks and demon.
Hmm.
Moment.
Ginslayer, babe killer.
He then.
Now, I would say bit rich for the guy who's helping Ormond.
Populate the battlements with children, but it's words from the mouth of a high dog.
You love that one.
It's great.
It always lands.
Of course.
Uh, what is she is, you know?
Still hanging over Damon as it should.
As it should.
Listen, uh, does it make sense to me that Bull John Rockston was handling Damon Targaryen?
Not necessarily.
However, I think that it is nerd cocaine to see orphan maker and dark sister in a fight.
And then to know because Ormond's also here, the vigilance is there, which he'll use to battle.
Roddy cut off an arm three Valerian steel swords in tumble tin and two of them facing off here with Damon.
When we seen fun, fun, fun.
Yeah.
And that's what tea in the behind the scenes was like, you know, we knew that if we brought Damon, because Damon is not a tumble tin in the book.
Right.
And so they're like, if we bring Damon and tumble tin, that means dark sisters coming to tumble tin.
Dark sisters coming to tumble tin.
That means there's Valerian steel swords on either side.
When we had long claw and heart spain, both at the battle of Winterfell, they weren't fucking fighting each other.
They weren't clashing.
No, it's just so exciting.
When have we seen Valerian steel swords fight before?
Hobbit and dragons, the demon economy forgot something.
You think, amen is going to give the cast ball dagger and black fire back to agon?
That would be interesting.
Yeah, we haven't, right?
So, okay.
Going, meanwhile, frantically searching for Darren, find some of the sect where he is attempting to unshine to Saracan.
We both love this scene, Joe.
Tell me.
And please refer to me as my boy as you tell me why you love this scene.
I don't know.
I just thought, you know, there were a lot of people who were expecting Darren to get involved in the battle of tumble tin.
And we're expecting Tissarian to sort of, yeah.
Get involved in the fighting.
I would have liked to see it Tissarian.
I'm glad that Tissarian in some ways, because this was like you said, like Damon's not here in the changes,
but I was expecting Tissarian to be in the field by this point.
I don't mind saying.
I think they didn't want to make Darren someone who killed a bunch of people.
Sure.
This is something they seem to be wanting to avoid, but like in the book, Darren has already done and will do some fighting.
And they might just change that entirely.
I don't know.
I mean, for all we know, you're trying to get out there.
For all we know, to go through me.
For all we know, Darren's done on the show.
We don't know.
I mean, I don't think so.
Nobody.
Nobody, no crap.
Nobody.
Goane is very ash covered and worried at the end.
He's like Darren where are you?
And he kind of pushed him out of the way of flame.
Nobody.
Okay.
You know, other than let's not keep up the first.
Oh, that is Stanislaus.
Darren long in the dying.
I did love in this Goane Darren moment.
Kristen's presence for Goane still, you know.
I fought beside other brave men who believed the death was the only path to glory.
Do not die for Orman's vanity.
My boy, my boy, my boy.
My boy, he's more and more and more of a father than Darren than Orman certainly are fucking the Saras.
And this is the real family here.
What was these two?
I hope they're both thriving and fine.
I think they didn't go up for everyone.
Ultimately we're we're we're spared having to find out what would happen.
And the you'll have to come through me.
Stay back moment because to Saras like something's happening and they run out to look and they see.
Often silverwing have entered the fight.
All flying overhead to the whoops and shears from team black below only for him to turn silverwing around and burn that army.
Shout in Jorcarus.
Great reaction shots.
You know, Coralus is horror down below.
But then of course he immediately turns on team green to because he was not actually loyal to the army.
Actually loyal to team green.
He just wanted some stuff.
Orman promised it.
Then he shamed him and took it away.
So who's he actually loyal to himself?
It's not team black.
He's not team green.
He's team Ulf.
We're cutting to the rady pursuit of Orman in that fight.
The smashing of the shield into the teeth.
Orman severed Roddy's arm.
I know it's sad, but he's dead and burned so it doesn't matter now.
What if mattered?
He would have gotten some West or Ocephaniers.
I think if he had survived this.
He bloodspreading into Orman's mouth and him gagging and then knife up the ass.
Just a treasure trove in this exchange.
And then they're both burned alive by Ulf who's like fuck you.
Burn some great, I guess vision.
How did Ulf see Orman exactly?
Very specific shiny armor.
Yeah.
The precision of the dragon, I guess.
The fact that silverwing, we got several emails about this.
But the fact that silverwing.
Jorcarus is both sides of the fight is very sheepstealer in the battle of the gullet.
Right?
This time on purpose from the writer, but very much like a dragon shows up and just torches both sides of the fight.
And also we got an interesting email comparing Ulf to sheepstealer.
Or just sort of like this question of like the illusion that we control,
the notion that we control dragons is an illusion.
Yes.
The notion that we control dragon writers is an illusion, right?
At the end of the day.
Like what's the difference in terms of like a dragon and a dragon writer in terms of like that idea of control?
Well, that's going to have to be on their minds after this.
I'd be worried.
I googled this.
We could get a valerian steel sword duel if it a night of the seven kingdoms flashback.
Yes.
Yes.
So we could.
Oh, we could for sure.
Yes.
Other than that.
I think that will happen.
I'm just, I'm unclear at this point how much, how many flashbacks we're going to get.
But other than that, I think this is it.
The fog of dragon war, Joe.
I mean, how do you feel?
I actually haven't seen as much pushback on this as I thought I would about Damon about John Rockston just like handing Damon his ass.
I mean, John is a very capable warrior and he has a valerian steel sword and Damon is, you know, is Dave diamond Targaryen like I think Damon should have acquitted himself a little bit better in this fight.
I just a switch.
Yeah, I do.
I did get a kick out of Matt Smith as always and house the dragons built being like I wanted it to be Barbara.
Yeah.
And he's like, I hate this whole council scene.
That was so funny.
And then he's like, I mean, I get why we need that for like, I hate them.
That was hysterical.
It was the field of fire.
Ritz small grand Mr. Munkin wrote.
I mean, it was a horror show, but the decimation and destruction battle.
I'll tell you that much right now.
No winners as usual in dragon war decimation destruction.
Damon spared for my guest being murdered by John Rockston by the cascading wood.
But as we talked about earlier, then he has to look out at the the hellscape around them that he has helped to usher in.
Yeah, we talked about this.
Any other further thoughts on Damon's?
No, but this is so.
Coralist shows up right now.
As all of his turn the town is lost.
We are leaving a moment that I really, really love right and our listener Leanne wrote in to say.
I found it interesting in this episode that it was Coralist who comes to Damon after the battle becomes unmanageable and vises they leave and Damon does having had his bell properly wrong.
In this season one episode where Coralist and Damon are fighting the triarchy and reach a point where the battle becomes unmanageable.
It is also Coralist who goes to Damon and suggests they bail or accept help from the Seris.
That time Damon doubled down and took on the army himself.
Is this girl?
Is he just 50 and the knees are essentially sound as they once were?
He knows.
He doesn't have the constitutional integrity to be covered in fucking grayscale blood at this point.
You need to be young for that shit, man.
Oh God.
What if we get another like a return to the short hair from Damon after this though? That would be great.
I'm sure Matt Smith would enjoy shorter hours in the big chair probably.
You think?
What does he hate more of the wig chair or the small castle scene?
We get a very brief shot of Silverwing flying pursued by Caraxi's who was shooting flame toast in the touch.
And then Verme, the bronze fury, the mount of the old king himself, now paired with Hugh Hammer, but he was cradling his dead wife cat.
Very sad.
Verme Thor is alone flying after Caraxi's and Silverwing.
Da, da, da, who do you think killed cat?
So there's a very quick flash of soldiers from both sides going into Cats house, which I think to me was kind of like effective to say.
It doesn't matter.
Everyone is a villain.
Everyone is to blame.
There are no winners, only losers.
I think there are a lot of winter wolf bodies around cat.
You know, do you want to be invoking the bells?
I would say no, but I think the rook's rest cop is a more favorable one, but in one of the harrowing things that happens, of course, in the bells among the many.
We start to see soldiers from the north like rapin, belligen, killing.
And John's like, no, exactly.
And we're like, no, I don't want it.
Charger ruins everywhere.
But if it was the winter wolves, that would be bad.
What killed cat?
How's Hugh Hammer going to feel about that?
Well, I think he's just going to feel very bad about all of this in general.
But again, blame all around.
So he had one desire this season, and it was to well get a house, but also get cat out of troublesome.
That's all.
Allison had one job this season, and it was to get Helena out of Kingslady on that front.
Renera arrives back to the red keep and a window's like, I've got some news.
Someone is like, it's bad news.
It's been a bad day.
She's been a bad day.
Allison Megan said, I can't believe you lost the bailout breaks beer.
Humphrey Beesbury, Jason the face and Helena within the last six months.
Big sad.
Jason the face is really something.
My God.
This is the great set different, of course, from the sceptive bailout, but the great set up to visible as we pan out quite deliberately.
Certainly from this window makes us think of our guy, Tom and tough one.
Just barrel around.
Allison, down in the wild, is the butterflies rise around her?
Beware them.
Beware the butterflies.
And also the beautiful metamorphosis of the caterpillar into a butterfly, etc.
I mean, absolutely beautiful.
Like in terms of the tapestry, like the image, the sort of butterfly-esque image of Helena falling, you know.
Really great.
And the kind of the silver of her tears, the silver of her hair.
Even the gown.
Yeah, the scale.
It's very like wingy.
Yeah, it did.
And like the, is that a word wingy?
Wingy, the winged.
You once said the winged about somewhere like so, the winged, why not?
Um, the scale, like this comparative size of Helena compared to the red keep, but what that kind of signals to us about the magnitude of this moment and the staff.
Helena doesn't really care for a first scale in her tapestry, eating.
No.
So Renera picks that up, sees that, then goes just one pain back.
I would have looked at it all.
I would have rolled it up and taken it with me and we would have poured over every, and I would have been like, more red meat for red eats.
Get on, get on the cake.
That is a vampire list reference and an excellent one.
Incredible.
Red eat.
Oh my god, I missed that.
That was so good.
So Renera sees herself on the iron throne.
Bleeding.
Bleeding.
Cut and judged by the throne.
I think that seems to play fire, fire blood all around.
Dragons roaring hands reaching hands, cut hands, bloody, like bloody fingers to cut hands.
Yes, the, the flame, the dragon claw, the human hands, the like kind of like blood magic, blood mage element of maybe the on holy.
So, to go back to the doom of Larry, like, what is this power?
Yeah, the dragon orgy never a bad time to think of the tapestries.
There's that.
But the overall, you know, not only the illusion of control, but the tie between this dance and the doom and the harkening of a new doom series long warning rendered in creative artistic form here.
We had a different interpretation of this in Chris Ryan.
That was a fun discussion.
Are you still in the same spot?
I think we're right.
Me too.
Yeah, same.
Well, I don't know the commenters agree to Chris.
I think, I think I really liked the read from Chris.
I thought it was really interesting.
The idea that I'm paraphrasing his, his check it out on talk of the thrones or on the.
Elsewhere Instagram.
The idea that Renera is like, I'm seeing what I want to see.
That actually tracks to me that Renera is.
She's like, yep, me on the throne.
Yes.
I think we had a related, but the kind of opposite read, which is.
I see something here that should be, I, the person who sought a dreamer to sanction my mission.
Now see something.
I would say clearly undeniably, deeply worrying and concerning.
And it passed the point.
None of my business of allowing myself to care.
Close the window on this conversation.
As Stanisper Athian once said, we marched toward victory.
We marched toward defeat, but we've been forward only forward.
So.
Yeah.
Um, my favorite detail on the extended look of the tapestry, by the way, from House of Dragons.
Built was in the blood and cheese stretch.
The rat.
The rat chef.
Yeah.
The rat chef.
Great.
Um, Danny's on there too.
Naked with her dragons.
And we know that Helena was in that.
She was dreamin.
Yeah.
Keeping on Damon's dream people.
Dream people.
So yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
Dragon meth update.
Let's do it.
Team cream.
So, the
Sunfire.
Frankly, thriving.
Back with the rider, Agon, in the riverlands currently in Harrenhal, but Agon's got plants to head elsewhere.
And Sunfire is.
Oh, sorry.
I was going to say so.
I was the object of a.
prophetic wonder.
So that's cool for Sunfire.
To Saran.
Chained.
Still.
In Tumpleton in the South.
Team Black.
Coraxies.
Roast and some Tush.
Did great, but with Damon and Tumpleton.
Syrax in Kingslaying with Rainier, still we have to imagine injured.
Probably.
Yeah.
Angry riders is what you've written in the notes here.
Verma Thor with a despondent hue in Tumpleton.
Seasmoak in Kingslaying with Adam, a tiny bit injured.
Moon dancer in Kingslaying with Bayla.
Yes.
And Teraxies with Jof still too small to fight.
And Teraxies has never been part of their six counts.
So they're down.
Teraxies technically, but they're down to five.
I would say they're basically down to two.
They're down to five and three of those five are really pissed right now.
So that's so it's really not.
Coraxies and Syrax.
And now that.
And again, this is a book change, but if they can find Begar, the idea that that Sunfire and Begar are together.
It's not great.
That would be a formidable pairing.
Free agent.
Silver wing.
Free agent is definitely on a yeah, the silver wing is a solo team.
This is a team of one.
Yeah, not free.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not free agent.
That's fully flipped off of Team Black, but not team old team green team.
Team old team all for the dragon art, undeclared or unpaired team white is what.
Okay, sheepstealer separated from Rana healing, but in the story still could be team black.
If they had managed that better, exactly dream fire.
It's devastatingly now without a writer.
Elena is dream fires writer and Helena just died.
So dream fire does not have a writer and dream fire is in King's Landing.
Yeah, cannibal and Grey Ghost wild dragons still unclaimed.
And then RIP, yeah, aerox, millies, Burmax sad.
Okay, spoilers.
Yeah, if you don't want to hear anything about book events that we think might be relevant in season four.
Thank you for listening this season.
We've cherished our time with you and we'll see you for a night at the seven kingdom season two and hopefully many things between now and then.
If you want the books, do I let spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers.
Stay tuned.
All right.
What we got?
Wear the little blonde babies. Many emails. Many emailers are asking where the little blonde babies.
Many emails are asking where the little blonde babies. Do you think they're going to come back in the final season?
Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I don't know.
It would be weird to be like Viserys got got snatched and still try to make room for that.
Aegon has to be back.
Okay.
Really, Viserys should not be back.
Aegon the conqueror babe.
Exactly.
Third of his name.
They also have to kill Storm Cloud.
Who is in the show and we have met. He was so tiny, but we saw baby little Storm Cloud with with with Egon last season.
I think that we need to see.
Egon crowned at the end of the show. So he has to come back for Sarah's.
I guess they'll just like mention got kidnapped or something.
I don't know.
I don't know, honestly, but Egon has to come back and then say my dragon bite and my brother got kidnapped.
I guess.
I think he's like two.
I mean, he really needs to be there to watch what happens on Dragonstone.
He really does.
For the history of Westeros.
Yeah.
Yeah, maybe not for the show for the history of Westeros speaking of Dragonstone.
We've been talking about this all season, but now given what we witnessed with Egon and Amon in this episode.
Where are you on the question of whether the dragon at Egon and Sunfire like lying and wait for Runeer on Dragonstone is going to be the kind of like if the show is going to be.
That twist in a surprise.
You know what I want to pull this off.
Lairs.
Because you were like layers going back to Kingslani and it makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
But my guy, he of the weaving deceptions.
I would love for him to somehow work straight that.
That'd be fun.
I missed those two together.
I listen to Cameron.
I think that's what I want to say.
In the Egon Amon scene, Egon, when he's threatening, Amon should have Sunfire burn, Amon alive.
Just think about Runeer.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And then Megan said in an interview with Fiya, Sabin, she pointed out that the dragonfire around Runeera.
That I took is for tells her eventual end on Dragonstone by Sunfire and Egon.
I didn't notice the fire the first time in the watch, but what makes sense?
So maybe part of that sort of vision of Runeer on the throne is her ultimate end as well.
Like, I mean, it's not a golden dragon.
If there's dragonface, there's fire, there's the hand, you know, like, is that depicting her death behind the throne sort of thing?
Could be.
Letter tragedy ahead.
What else?
Amon's choice.
So we have to be at Heron Hall for God's eye with Damon.
But when Damon shows up in the book, he's got to wait 13 days for Amon to come.
There's certain, there he is.
I think it's entirely possible that Amon's just like, I'm staying with Alice here.
And I think it's possible that he goes with Egon and then has to come back maybe because they have set up the phrase re-taking Heron Hall.
So if Alice, if he hears that Alice is in peril, would he go back to be with her?
I would like it.
Fine.
I would not like Alice to be taken by the fucking phrase.
Canonically, Sabbath of the phrase should be hiding in the privy cowering and terror.
So she should not get the jump on Alice even for a second, but more like if Amon stinks.
Yeah, yeah.
That she's in any danger.
I have a question about this.
So they kind of did the second tumble tin thing with all.
It did like 1.Tumble tin 1.5.
Yeah.
So, and there are, I mean, I guess like this could be on the Darren front of question.
Two in terms of just where is Darren?
Like what happened exactly in some mystery there as a possibility, but like,
Oh, sleep through.
It's just wasted and sleep through second tumble tin.
Are they going to do that again?
Or did they do it here instead and they'll do something else in second tumble tin?
Well, the questions to some people are like, are we not getting into tumble tin?
Is that tumble tin?
Just ash at this point, but I think you need hue and all.
Yes.
And the cowl trops and everything.
So I think there has to be enough tumble tin left standing that they still are like posted up there.
You know what I mean?
Storming of the pit, there aren't as many dragons to do the exact carnage scale of the fire blood text.
So obviously that would be a seminal moment.
And when you pair like Syracs and everything, even though that's under the dome, but the proximity.
The sheer volume of dragon death at second tumble tin is one of the most significant moments in the dance.
It just has to happen.
It has to.
So I was a little bit like, oh, interesting to have that old thing happen here.
But maybe he'll just be up to some other shit or this is just the thing he does.
Sleeps through battle because he's drunk.
On the hue friends.
Yes.
So we've been like, we were trying to figure out how they would get to like hue turning and the answer was they didn't.
So fine.
But do you think that like if Verma Thor, who as we talked about on Talk to Throne's is like paired with Silver Wing?
Yes.
If Verma Thor attacks Coraxies for attacking Silver Wing, even if hue is not on Verma Thor.
Yeah.
Will it matter and will just you be accused of being a traitor anyway because Verma Thor is there and somehow involved in the fight?
I think that all of those, there will be the suspicion cast on all the seeds because of what what all has done.
So hue will fall under suspicion.
Even Adam will fall under suspicion.
For sure.
Just looking beautiful at all.
That's that's always.
But I think that it would to me, it feels more interesting if it's a more active choice from you and he's just like my wife is dead.
And.
I blame everyone for that.
So like I'm curious if there's any moment of alliance between often hue or if they're both just on their own side.
Now I don't think hue in the show has been set up to do the like, you know, okay, there's the Robert Baratheon.
Yeah, more prophecy that he thinks is about him and like, you know, declaring himself king.
I don't know that we'd have to get to a place really quickly where that felt totally credible for this character.
Yeah.
But I do think that he's at the point now to reject serving team black.
So I don't I don't I think if he went back and they were like, you're not trusted, I would actually find that a little bit strange.
Like he should not.
He should just take his dragon and his ball and go home.
Do what he wants.
Go where?
Right here.
Stay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think he's staying at.
At Tomlton, but I I feel well, we'll say.
Yeah.
Because I really like reason is is because they're going to be like.
You didn't say the dragon pit where you're supposed to like it's a treason.
Even though he did not actively get on his dragon and do what all did for sure him leaving his post to King's landing and be there.
It's called the treason's plural at Tomlton.
Yes.
But my question is like, what why does he care if they're like you left your post like, why would he want to work for them at this point anymore at all?
It's a great point.
So I don't know.
We'll see.
Adam.
This is the first time we've kind of been joking all season of like have we been pressing our thumb too heavily on the scale with Adam sweet Adam never did a wrong thing.
I love it Adam.
This was the first episode where I was like, oh, maybe they're doing something different with Adam and he's not actually going to remain loyal to Reneira.
Is that possible?
I don't know about like loyal oil, but I do think he will show up when he needs to show up.
Yeah.
You know, and that would actually be I think that would be ideal.
Yeah.
Is for him to like what if he goes the other faces because he's like conflicted.
Yes.
Yes.
Exactly.
And we need that as somebody to stay to commit to their allegiance, but ask questions and push back.
Right.
If everyone's just like fuck off piece out, that's not quite as interesting.
Darren.
Is he dead?
So something you wrote here and this is something we had discussed before.
We're like unless the Zelda film is scheduled means they're fast-forwarding to second-tumble to his mysterious fate.
They cannot do this as says Mallory Rubin.
Is Darren dead or we don't think so.
We think that like Gwayne and Darren and Ulf and Hugh and Bull John Rockston, that's going to be a very interesting.
They really set that up to be a very interesting story in tumultent in season two.
But there is a question of like did Darren just leave?
Yeah.
Just mysteriously disappear after the second tumultent or did he die?
All this fight or flea talk this season now.
I think it does at least introduce the possibility.
We've been talking all season though about the fact that like Orman doesn't have any sons.
And inside of this episode, Coralus is like what if we marry Reyna to Darren?
Yeah.
In the book Reyna marries one of Orman's sons and that is the political marriage.
Like is there any way in which they keep Darren alive?
I know.
No.
We're just either on fiction at this point.
Either has to be killed or he has to mysteriously disappear.
He has to decide like I don't want to be a part of this at all and I'm going to go live anonymously,
which they have done with characters in the show who we thought were dead.
Lane or did that, right?
So I think it's always a little trickier with dragon writers, but there's tough stuff ahead for our beloved blue queen.
Well, yeah, I'm just saying if Tessar and his dead is there anyway, the show?
Yeah.
Not the book, the show could keep Darren alive and have Darren and Reyna marry because Garmin Heidtower is on the show.
Because then it's like they're because then one of Viserys' kids is alive in the whole.
There would be no alignment around egg on the third then.
Too many people would still be like Darren should be Kim.
It's just that I think that's like a fork.
That's like a TVA alternate branch timeline that I think is doesn't align.
I would love for Darren to live.
I'd be thrilled.
But I don't think the given all of the changes we've seen on this show, I don't think it's off the table.
I think Darren being confirmed alive and like I'm sailing off to Essos for cinnamon and oranges is completely possible.
And I think that would be interesting for him to declare so consistently.
I don't want people to fight for me and die for me.
I want to be out there, but then actually pick in the fight or flee.
flee.
That would be an interesting character journey.
Him staying in the pot like in the court of King's Landing.
I think would be difficult to pull off.
If he's just like back in Old Town with Raina.
And it's just sort of like Corlyce's plan comes to pass and they make this political marriage that Corlyce proposes here.
And this is part of the piece and his dragon is dead and he's got red hair.
And he's like, I don't even look like a Targaryen.
I don't have a dragon anymore.
I don't want it.
I just want to go back to Old Town.
Maybe.
And then because sheep stiller has somehow died in mourning is born to Raina per the email.
We got a couple weeks ago.
It's like, maybe it happened.
Missaria.
Speaking of things that could happen.
Do you think that this was a hundred percent lock that Missaria is going to be the shepherd in season four?
Or are they like test ballooning it?
They're certainly test ballooning it at a minimum.
I think there's a chance that there are like people don't seem hype about this.
We'll walk it back or no.
Maybe. And it's possible that Missaria there is like a guy with one arm.
You know, blah blah.
But it's really Missaria and Sylvie.
The Sylvie question.
A common theory has been that Sylvie is actually Sylvanas sand and will sort of like be involved in that regard.
So like that Sylvie will be involved that Missaria will be involved that Alinda.
Her girl on the inside will somehow be involved in this mask and sparsey to, you know, take down the dragons and take down Reneira.
But I think there's given how unpopular Missaria was and they're like, fuck you.
We're going to double down.
You know, because we were like, are they going to run Missaria off the show because people don't really like her?
And they're like, nope.
She's even more in the show than ever before.
I really think they're going to be like, she's integral to the final season.
I think so too.
It definitely seems like they're setting her up to be the shepherd.
Here's a question for you.
If...
Egg on the third egg on the dragon being does not come back into the show.
And Alinda is really team Missaria and is not there to gouge out her own eyes.
Who is watching Reneira die?
Allison.
But she'd be cheering for it at that point.
Which, she...
I think she's going to feel conflicted until the end.
After Helena?
Yeah.
I think there's no path back for them now.
No, I don't think there's a path back, but it's not going to be like a clean break.
Here's a question on the Allison front.
Well, we can hit the shepherd emails in a second.
But like, are you worried at all?
I think consistently the show has avoided this concern.
We've had moments.
We've gotten emails from people over the seasons.
Allison, like, doesn't have that much story.
What are they going to do?
This is basically like the third lead of the show, right?
One of the three main leads of the show.
I did have a moment when I was like,
Allison was in the finale of season three for two seconds.
Should we be concerned about that in terms of just like how to keep incorporating
Allison into the story when there's not that much?
Is that a concern at all or no?
Do you think they'll continue to find like versions of Allison until the end?
Versions of Allison went to Dragonstone, Renera went to the SAPT,
et cetera, to give us the meaningful moments between these characters.
I think the latter, just because they know how much that is the juice of the show.
How many versions of those two talking in a room about whether there's a path forward can we do?
I don't know how many versions of Hey Renera, the crown will corrupt you.
Do we get this season?
Loved them all.
Okay.
Loved them all.
Anything else I'm sorry, is the shepherd?
Our listener, Michael came through with some, just a roundup, right?
Sleeper picks could still include Laris, always plotting.
Yes.
Sylvia up with the people.
Or while, oh no, you did not just blab, egg on the prophecy in a public speech,
Gwayne, a live way past his book character, and Alan, my bad on the high septine killing.
The two main contenders are Missaria and Allison.
Missaria's chances went way up when she stepped off the retirement wagon to Pento.
She's got unfinished business with Renera.
Though I think Allison should still be the favorite.
Keeping a lane alive was her soul motivation, and perhaps she'll lose a hand on the perilous journey back to Gings Landing.
She's also much more light of the seven code of the Missaria.
Beyond that, Olivia Cook is one of the stars of the show, and her character is almost nothing to do in season four, according to the histories.
You would hate this because you really want the shepherd to be an actual commoner.
An actual commoner.
And Missaria would count in a way that Allison would not.
Yeah, I think the connection to any sort of religious doctrine is a little bit of a heart or cell with Missaria.
Missaria, but I think Missaria has been positioned effectively as a character who knows what to use in order to do the thing.
If she thinks that, especially after the high septine was just killed, the way to align her flock is to lean into the religious rhetoric that she would do that,
whether it was with a puppet shepherd or herself.
I agree.
I do think it feels really the show has committed to focusing on the small folk.
And whether the Targaryens or the high towers are fit to try to claim to rule and protect the small folk when they don't give a shit about them and don't understand them.
So I think the shepherd being having that history, you know, dating back to Missaria is very initial like that season one episode to fight with Damon about her history.
That part of it would work.
So I'm very open to Missaria as shepherd actually.
It doesn't, it's a huge change, but I think it could work.
I also would be a much harder.
As soon as we saw her in the crowd, I felt like it was a lock.
I was just like, oh, she gets off the, she gets off the wagon.
You're like, oh, okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Last night, at least the prophecy.
I'll listen or call and wrote in with a theory, which is just sort of like, as we discuss, how does regar find the prophecy?
Could it be instead of like, oh, I found the dagger or I found this or whatever.
He found the scroll that said, dear diary, today, Queen Reneira said something,
Kuku bananas on the, on the stairs of the sept.
Yeah.
And this is me, or while riding it down and doesn't this sound absolutely not a fuck or while I think your theory from last week that it's torn mandrelies diary is a lock now giving his reaction.
It's gotta be it.
Anyway.
That has been the house of the dragon season four coming in.
She doesn't 28.
Is that right?
Geez.
That sounds like a really long time.
Will we be here on earth?
I don't know.
Will any of us be?
Thank you.
Thank you to our squad, Hart Queen's Guard, for a wonderful season of House of the Dragon Coverage, Coralist Cheraboga, Scott Lee, Jacob Cornett, or Juneramcapowell,
Jomi Adeneron, squad squad squad.
Thank you to the bad babies, as always.
Amazing.
Thank you to you, Joanna Robinson, and we'll have to go to Westros together.
Thank you to you, Mallory Rubin.
So excited to go back for night of the Seven King Zames.
Same.
Can't wait.
And also before that, to the UK with you to see the bad king play.
We'll be there.
Okay.
Sure.
We'll see you soon.
Bye!
Bye.