Is ‘Lanterns’ the End of Superhero TV? Plus, ‘Furious’ E5 and the ‘Lioness’ S3 Premiere.

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I need support staff to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now!

Hello and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at theringer.com.

Joining me in the studio, he wants his body to do it.

Not a pill.

It's Andy Greenwald!

You get to that scene of lioness?

Bet you did!

I bet you did!

I did!

Once up everybody, it is Thursday in the United States of America.

I'm going to go move.

This last part of the week.

Great.

Grind it a few out this week, but there's nothing like coming home.

I think you are as exultant today as the New York Times is.

How about a week when the left isn't disarray?

The left, the collapse.

So much concern.

We're in different periodicals these days, I think.

Well, I read the New York Times, but only the version that exists in lioness.

Which I cannot wait to talk to you about.

Honestly, dude, it's not that much different.

Today, Andy, as we alluded to, we will talk about broadly the first episode of lioness.

Because I think Andy may have grabbed the parachute a little.

What do they call it in MMA in the octagon when they're out?

I think you had somebody ex fill you.

Let's just put it that way.

I dreamed of getting black bagged eight minutes in.

It would have been a relief.

We are also going to talk a little bit about the shards.

We're going to talk more extensively about furious up through episode five.

Episode six comes out on Sunday.

As does lanterns.

Yeah.

And we have a little bit of a prelude to that show.

Because there's a lot of interesting reporting going on.

I know we've been banging the superhero drum this week,

these last week and a half.

A lot of interesting reporting going on around the state of superhero television,

which is sort of our ballet wick here.

I thought when you said a prelude to lanterns,

you were going to talk about the glories of Alan Scott,

the golden age green lantern, who carried a little green lantern.

I got to admit to you, no, I just know nothing about the green lanterns.

I'm just dazzling you.

Yeah.

And then I had a couple other news things for you.

I noticed that you have a few.

There's a trusty task water bottle.

Yeah.

You've got a green tea out.

Yeah.

This is the Juliet Lippmann School of Beverage, if I remember correctly.

Are you nursing something here?

A grudge?

Hangover?

No.

No, I just wanted...

I mean, you know, I did have a cocktail yesterday

and you never know where that's going to go with me.

But I don't think that's exciting top of the pod content.

We could save it for...

What's the opposite of after dark?

Harsh light?

Half hour?

The new segment?

No, no, no.

I just was like, you know what?

I've had my coffee.

Maybe we'll have a gentler caffeine during this part of the party.

I like its clean energy.

Green tea is clean energy.

Don't tell Taylor Sheridan that.

Well, band that shit.

Can I just do one thing, though?

Because I feel like we're doing a weird thing with the show,

the agency that we're big fans of,

where we are kind of concerned trolling and like engaging

with some sort of speculative gossip about the future of the show

based on like whispers and talk around town.

But I want to say two things.

One, we don't actually know anything.

And I will say that based on my very little knowing things.

Did you get a brushback pitch from somebody?

No, the opposite.

Okay.

I'm brushing my own pitch back.

Okay.

So what they say.

I better have more green tea.

I'll just do the wind horse fingers.

I think that it's looking good from what I understand.

I think that the agency coming back is looking good.

Should we start doing this more?

Yes, because here's the other thing.

I would love a brushback pitch.

I am actually going to say to whatever camera.

Does the agency have a press team?

Are there publicists working for the show?

They do.

Okay.

You're refusal to engage with the great corporation

that David Ellison has built.

That's up to you.

That was before his office.

I happen to know several people working in the Paramount

Press Shop and they're lovely.

And you know what they do?

They represent both sides.

They're sending me lioness season five.

Anyway, I was just saying, I do feel like there is a small subsection

of the fandom of this podcast who also like the agency.

We're like, my head spinning listening to these guys.

Yeah.

I think it's going to be fine.

I think it sounds like it's pointed in the right direction.

Yes.

That's good.

What's not pointed in the right direction is the great experiment

where we're going to make a bunch of superhero television

to buttress the superhero blockbusters.

Crush it.

That we're going to be populating our movie theaters.

You know, basically at the start of the streaming wars

and as Disney threw its hat in the ring and as HBO Max started

to take on more Warner Brothers and DC properties.

We had this grand plan laid out for us that Lucasfilm

and Marvel, I wouldn't classify Lucasfilm the superhero,

but broadly speaking, genre, genre IP was going to flip

between small screen and big.

You know, and this obviously also emerged at a time

where I think Hollywood was reconsidering its relationship

to the theatrical experience in general because of COVID.

Yes.

And assuming trend lines were fixed, right?

Yes.

If the theatrical experience was clearly diminishing

or at least returns were diminishing, then they needed

to find that income elsewhere or to engage with audiences

elsewhere where they are.

And now we arrive at this moment where a superhero movie,

a comic book film, is likely to be one of the biggest

that's just been released as likely to be one of the biggest films

not of the year of all time in Spider-Man brand new day.

That movie probably has increased enthusiasm for Avengers

Doomsday.

I would say maybe a vent superhero movies.

I think still can be like incredible ticket drivers.

And on the flip of that, when you look around on your streaming

services that you were told you had to have if you wanted to keep

current with phase six or the expanding DCU or whatever,

it's crickets, it's dust, dust, dust bunnies,

is that what are the ones that tumbleweeds?

It's tumbleweeds.

Real man of the people here.

I've seen Bill Lewaski.

I know it's tumbleweeds.

And I just think it's just a fascinating moment.

So lanterns is coming on Sunday from a troika of incredible writers

from Damien Lenneloff, Chris Mundy and Tom King.

It also has the sort of umbrella kind of seal of approval

from James Gunn and Peter Safran who run DC for Warner Brothers.

There's an amazing story.

It kind of told me a couple of different outlets this week

about the genesis of this project and how long Greg Berlanti had been working on it

and how many different iterations has gone through over the last seven years

to get it to screen.

But when you look at this reporting, it's also talking about how they're pruning

a lot of the stuff that we were told was coming.

So for instance, DC is no longer making the wall or show

which would have been the viola Davis-led series piecemaker.

No, suicide squad spin-off kind of.

They're no longer making paradise lost, which was supposed to be a Wonder Woman prequel series.

Had you been following that?

Was that something you were aware prior to this announcement?

They are making a Skylar Gzando led Jimmy Olsen show

which I think is a very smart execution of an idea where the American Vandal guys are making it.

This is what I heard.

Kind of docu-drama comedy with about Jimmy.

With Gorilla Broad or something?

Whatever is in it.

It's just, it's like an incredibly smart use of the style of filmmaking

that those American Vandal guys do.

On the Marvel side of things, there's Vision Quest, the Paul Bettany show,

which has seemingly been in the works or done or in motion for quite some time,

at least since the end of WandaVision.

And then if you look around at various websites,

it's like, kind of sounds like Marvel TV is going to turn into YA and animated.

Some exceptions.

Obviously there was a Punisher special earlier in the year.

I'm sure that there will be some other live action stuff eventually.

But things like Champions and Strange Academy,

which the Champions is like a young Avengers sort of thing.

Gone.

I think.

Well, I mean, Champions, don't make me do this.

Don't make me do this.

I have another super green tea.

I mean, get involved in this podcast.

Okay, well, young Avengers was the young Avengers,

but Champions was a off rebooted kind of barely remembered LA-based super team.

So I think that would be like us, Nithya Rahman,

you know, other like sort of left-leaning council members, you know.

And we tackle the unhoused issue here.

That's what we do.

Yeah, both of transportation.

They have animated stuff like Marvel's Zombies,

X-Men 97, The Second Season, and the Super Mario.

Friendly neighborhoods Spider-Man.

I personally think it would be cool if they did more Werewolf by Night-style experiments,

or like three episode Sherlock-esque special events season.

Say what else you want?

What else do I want?

You want another Punisher kills an entire burrow of New York special?

I can neither confirm that.

Sure.

Did the Paramount publicists send you that too?

They just had it worked up with Claude.

There's not a tremendous amount that I saw in the Lucasfilm Chamber in terms of being developed for TV.

It's like a Shoka, a Shoka season two.

I'm not sure if the Mandalorian movie killed Mando the show.

Maybe.

I mean, I think, you know what the saddest site was, honestly,

someone that I really love the respect and always check for in his projects was like you and McGregor on the red carpet for the dinosaur movie.

End of Oak Street.

Being like, quite good.

Asking if there's going to be an Obi-Wan season two, and he's just like,

oh, Hayden and I are so ready for it.

There's got to be more adventures.

I'm like, come on, man.

He's like, I have 10 years until I'm allocating this as age.

Right.

So we have 10 years to make this.

So presumably.

So the idea is that he wasn't just making sourdough that whole time,

in aging and the harsh sun, which skincare now makes me understand that transition faster.

Yes.

You know what I mean? That's more likely.

Yeah.

I wonder whether or not to make this more broadly interesting to people rather than just like art is champions,

going to be, you know, as good as we hope.

I do wonder whether or not this move away from developing your own IP and creating like TV-based

share universes and stuff like, regardless of whether you enjoyed it in 2022 or not.

Right.

Whether this signals like a broader move by a lot of these streamers to turn into open,

not open source platforms, but like,

both buyers and dealers.

There are a lot of industry trends to pick up here.

Yeah.

A little housekeeping.

Vision Quest is premiering in October before Tunes 8 is shot.

You know that it features the return of James Spader as Ultron?

I didn't.

How psyched are you, Wondita?

I mean, live reaction.

I know there was a big reaction that went viral when you were told that Jalen Brown was now a sixer.

Spader is back.

Go, Kai.

Get ready.

I, I, I, I, as James Spader, been in a film since Ultron?

Do you think intentionally, do you think he's been blacklisted or was he like,

it can't get any better than this?

Well, he was on blacklist.

Did you, did you meet him?

Yeah.

Of course I did.

What are some of the big trends?

So Vision Quest is happening and I do think that you can see in just anecdotally like when Marvel is still trying

the last gasp of being like, you know, to really appreciate Doomsday, you have to watch both seasons of Loki and Agatha all along

and Vision Quest and people who are like, respectfully, no, I don't.

Yeah.

That is definitely the end of something.

I think that you can, you, in terms of the, before we get into the bigger trends, like we didn't even get a chance to talk about it

because I think news broke when we were recording one of our advance pods for, for last week.

But Disney cancelled Wonder Man season two and I find that whole thing genuinely.

Despite Yaya of Donateen's...

I mean, I'm not interested.

I find that whole thing infuriating, to be honest.

Like the, both because the first season was wonderful and organically creatively good and had a wonderful response

and actually had some industry response, which used to be something that people used as a benchmark for continued success.

But I also found it really, really disperting just in terms of how cavalier these massive corporations and tech overlords are about creative work

because this is a show as we talked about was in development for years that they began shooting it as the strike hit in 2023.

Somehow it somehow it survived and they finished it and they finally aired it in a just a dump in January.

And then I don't have no knowledge of the inside of that building, but it does seem like at least some of the higher ups at Marvel and Disney were kind of shocked that people really liked it.

Like they didn't understand what they had.

So what happened subsequently was kind of a scramble to be like, no, no, we're very proud of this and we're going to make more of it and they got a renewal.

They didn't get a renewal in a normal renewal window, but they got one.

And you have Sir Ben Kingsley and you have Yaya of Dole-Mateen thrilled to come back.

You have the creator Andrew Guest who came on the show to talk about it, you know, writing a fantastic season two script and gathering a room and getting ready to go.

And then they decide to cancel it for financial reasons.

It's just like you could have done that in January. It's just mismanagement.

And even if it does align with what you're speaking to, which is this larger trend that they aren't going to be doing shows like this anymore.

Do you fucking know how hard it is to get a show that is good?

Just to get a show that is good.

I don't think they care about shows that are good.

I think that they do not on a fundamental level, especially if it does not align with it.

It's a nice, it's a nice byproduct of shows.

Now they're good and loved.

Now you could also.

Especially Juan de Vizio, for instance, was one that I think was taken quite seriously, you know.

Right, but the first and last shows that they made basically.

Yeah.

We're taking quite seriously.

And in between they veered for various reasons, very, very far away from the North Star of what any healthy creator process should be, which is this script is undeniably good.

Or this is a lightning and a bottle moment and we must try our best to bring it to the screen.

Instead, it has been a bunch of years of really like backassword kind of development of let's raid the library for potential.

I P exploitation, sorry, exploration.

Let's or let's just fill the chamber with all of the stories back all that doesn't fit into the movie catalog because, oh my god, Sam Jackson will do a TV show.

Sure, let's do a TV show for him too.

It's backward thinking up and down.

If this had been the plan from the beginning, which is if we have a wonderful idea for a TV show, we will consider it.

But we are not committed to making 10 of these and three of these every year, the three of these being movies and dance.

Yeah, and there's going to be this further reading assignments for these phases that we've sort of instituted and all that stuff from our point of view.

Part of that is the trend over the last decade or so to float your publicly traded company and movie studio based on.

Potential future earnings so you announced that there's an Avengers movie coming in 2027 and then you just point everything towards that and then the bill comes

Do later, which is also by the way how I managed to come in second in the Lakers bidding yesterday.

I just moved a lot of stuff around and got really really creative with it.

That's what Mark Walter was doing.

Don't knock the hustle, which trend do we want to go into?

Well, I wanted to talk about the idea that even Disney is talking about being a place where you can subscribe to other channels through Disney+.

And all of these services now are going to be in a race to be like, we want to be the place that you spend $40 a month.

Yes.

So like right now, for instance, I think if you have Netflix and let's say you have Netflix and like you've got Netflix for your mom or something like that.

Because you're like, just don't worry about it.

I'll pay it and you can just sign in.

I think you have to get like the extended family tier or whatever it is.

And if you wanted an HD 4K or if you want to like 4K streaming, I think it's close to $37 a month or something like that.

Like it's getting up there.

This is what we had always kind of talked about was that these things are going to get introduced and it's going to be like $99 a month to watch everything on Disney's watchers.

Disney launched at $4.99.

Yeah. And so now incrementally over which is also how crack launched as well.

But you will hit a breaking point for people and they will start going around and be like, well, I need Amazon Prime because I have prime or whatever.

I don't need I don't need this and I don't need that.

The other thing they do that is just normal is the churn.

Like I only need it to watch this show and then I cancel it.

But they're making it so that that is not as easy to do.

Not only contractually or whatever, but they're also making it so that if you go and you use Disney or Amazon or Hulu or whatever it is to also watch live sports.

Also watch stars because you want to watch out land or something like that.

It starts to become more of a cable box than it is like a closed loop.

This is you have to come to Disney plus because we have all all of your Marvel stuff and more because we're constantly making new Marvel stuff.

Yeah, I think that the there was a really interesting conversation on Matt Bell in his podcast, the town last week with a Wells Fargo analyst named Stephen Kale who was like, I think Disney should get out of the streaming business.

Yeah. And you know, they are pot committed at this point.

But I thought it was an interesting argument because what he did not only did he say like think about how much money they would make by just being like Sony still and just selling their stuff to the highest bidder and so that Marvel movies would be a Netflix or wherever.

And they could be a content creator, which is what they are good at and what they historically have been good at.

But the other point was that was interesting was that a lot of these streaming services were launched in an era where Netflix's dominance was so not just assumed but such as like an existential threat to their company.

That they felt like they needed to retreat pull back their troops and shore up their defenses and the reality is that not the Netflix is foulable but that there is an ecosystem that can support multiple streaming services.

And so there's a different there's a different there's a different thought process that needs to go into cost and spending versus return.

And the point that he made which we don't talk about enough because we usually when we talk about Netflix we're talking about the Netflix shows we like like adolescence.

We aren't really talking about the broader shift that has saved not saved the service but transformed the service.

And it's yes, they still spend millions billions of dollars producing content every year.

But a lot of what they produce is the floor is lava and is it cake and they do that in many countries and that is cost a lot of fucking Netflix because what they produce is a ton of true cry.

And what they produce is a ton of reality and what they produce is a ton of live events like you can we can do the gourmet cheeseburger thing if we want but like they are churning stuff out at a level that like you would be showing.

And the insane thing about the commitment to streaming that Disney made that I'm sure some people were on the rampart screaming about but was that Disney's brand is imagination and creativity and increasingly spectacle right it's not just the marvel movies that cost upwards of 200 million dollars to make and to put in theaters picks our movies cost close to that to just for their because of their insanely grinding creative process and then actually animating the things.

So to go into the TV market and say the things you get on the big screen you're also going to get on TV means you're also spending 200 million dollars for an eight episode television show which is insane especially if that television show is secret invasion.

Yes. So it is a dangerous arms race that they were not prepared to say and the flywheel break the flywheel is the legendary Walt Disney idea of like you know basically the imagine years come up with a cool set of characters and story and then it becomes a movie and then it becomes a ride and people are going to be.

And then you get to ride and people get to buy merchandise for it and like you keep going around and like in this era the stream servers should make sense because Disney used to control the market on their own home video releases in a way that was really Marlos Danfield Esk that's Bob Jpex music but that was his shit but that was like we will take Cinderella off the shelves in 60 days and then it won't be back for years.

So I think that's why it now if you want to have this magical experience in your home and now it's like that should is just all in the stream service and I think that they they encountered something where like they had to keep feeding it and now it's because they fed it it's not as special.

Well that's true I mean I think you're approaching it from from like a scarcity standpoint which is true it's also true in terms of diminishing creative returns for sure.

And then also then hurt their bread and butter business which is theatrical release.

So I think all of this is to say this is a logical business retrenchment like the cartoons work they service a different audience and they also provide a kind of collective

enthusiasm simmer for other projects like there's I I'm sure they have data that under that would support this claim but like the the X-Men 97 cartoon has triggered some nostalgia versus in the exact and some excitement in the same cohort that needs to go to the multiplex to see the X-Men movie.

How long have you been recording for by the way.

25 minutes.

And you have not apologized for your misinformation about Charles Melton.

Okay I didn't know we were going to do this right now this is how you this is how you get me this is I believe the same interviewing technique Martin machine.

Turn down X-Men and you say what.

I say it's just a shame first of all I'm more than any time you are so certain I'm more than any time that two sides can't find common ground.

Okay that is that is my number one priority in this business and in life.

I guess I what I want to know Chris is who blinked you know did Disney blink at the thought of having a generationally talented and good looking guy covered in blue fur for a decade or did our guy Charlie Melton say you know what they're better things to do than sit in a chair or have like ping pong balls all over me for nine years for nine years.

I mean it is also thanks for giving me a chance to talk about this really I appreciate it.

It's a weird part I mean beast beast is a weird part it's got a arc he does he has many are you know they they've been turning in villainous more recently how do you feel about that I didn't know that yeah yeah you ever watch the show the beast in me with the clairdains that's not the one I'm talking about.

Disney cartoon no he yeah so from there's all the mantle from Kelsey grammar to Nicholas holds to question mark.

It's a bummer you had him interrupt you what were you saying I'm I'm now on a topic I care more about I guess we were just saying that it there's other than what let's let's go through it.

Wanda vision low key season one.

Agatha maybe and some of the specials that you're talking about and wonder man I it's not like a legacy necessarily to be that proud of I do think I do wonder if this will also affect there's rumors that it will.

It seemed to me that they found something smart with the daredevil series in that it is a ongoing television show this is where I wanted to go with this because you know I've been.

What a very interested in the ongoing debate of movies versus TV like what kind of holds holds the consciousness captive holds like the masses captive in terms of like interest in terms of.

Not only following along with whatever industry and being up on like movies or shows are coming out but just where people seem to be deriving the most satisfaction and I think unquestionably it seems to be.

In a way it seems to be movies this year right like people seem to be going in droves.

Enjoying monocultural events and then talking about them for weeks on end I believe this tracks with your year being on the big picture I think also there's something we're going on where I think I think there is a little bit of a TV's lost its way kind of by happening.

I do think that this has been a year where I've been like more surprised when a show is just good you know like I'm like almost like a good TV show well how about that we can still do that because we've seen so many things that I feel like are like holy shit you guys put this up on a surface like yeah thought this was done like yes I agree with that I mean I think that again there's like if we're going macro that I think there's the development of the show.

There's a lot of things that I think that's not the only thing that I think that's the only thing that I think is the development of things not everything and not at every place but development is in a very weird place.

And all you have to do to look at that is look at exactly like some things that made it to air and some things that get canceled or don't even make it that far.

I agree with that.

We can throw an idea in here right now which is the shards which I have not checked out yet but you've watched the first two a fascinating story where it was in development at HBO for a long time right after Brett is now is released it both as an audio experience and then as a novel novel yeah and I believe Luca what did you know was attached on that I I do do know that

he's an Ellis was being sort of prioritized as like the creative folk room of the show and that he had written the first couple of scripts but then that relationship seemed to fall in a park or in the Hollywood reporter in other places you can read.

I mean and the last 40 years of Brett Ellis is like a writer I really like but he has had a bumpy relationship with adaptation and with Hollywood and this is a well how would you describe the novel you like actually yeah it is a really interesting exercise and kind of meta auto fiction in which it is it at once a memoir.

Of the main character Brett Ellis who is also the main character of lunar park and is basically the main character of most of his books sometimes under different names living in Los Angeles going to high school in 1981 and the Valley right yeah I'm going to yes and being in a very rich fast moving world going to Buckley school with his friends glamorous friends and children of Hollywood and writing less than zero by night.

And in a love triangle and sort of exploring his own nason sexuality and talking about going to school on the East Coast which you would then do and that would become rules of attraction but in the shards all of this is set to the backdrop of a particularly vicious serial killer in an arrow in which serial killers were quite a thing.

So the shards as a TV show yeah gets picked up the the rights or I don't know how it gets transferred but Ryan Murphy to the rescue comes in picks up this project that had fallen apart at HBO brings it over to FX where he has a long standing deal and where he's returned to Disney from Netflix.

Yes.

And shoots the first two shards episodes as Ellis had written them essentially right more or less from what we understand of this yes I mean the first two scripts of the series are credited to readies and Ellis and Ryan Murphy okay and mostly track with the novel and Murphy direct Murphy directs the first to you.

And then apparently after the second episode it becomes a completely different show.

Yes now we are talking about this at a time when I believe the third episode and fourth episode maybe just went up I'm not caught up through them I'm just basing this off of reviews that were like starts good then it goes crazy.

I mean and to be honest and I guess we should probably should do a weird loop to loop where we come back to previewing lanterns or why it is I'll get there this is part of this.

But you guys talking come on.

I I find this fascinating and it may look like I don't have my hands on the steering wheel you but I do I do it's just like I'm right here I thought this was a way mo and you're just in the front seat.

We all know.

Kaya has the real controls me describing to a way mo what happens in the second half of the first episode of lioness.

Honestly we're probably see a lot of himself in that episode well.

Don't don't see you.

You know you teasing me with tangents I'm trying to stay focused today.

I find the shards thing totally fascinating for two reasons one purely personal reason like I said last week I like.

I like this era of Los Angeles storytelling and it is absolutely a beautiful looking production and I think Ryan Murphy.

But we've litigated my feelings about him as a creator and artist but he is a absolutely talented director and when he locks into something when it vibes with his own aesthetic maybe this is true of any director but I feel I feel very strongly about saying this about him.

It can elevate and I think his you know his his terroir if you will is kind of trashy Los Angeles and all of its forms high to low and so this is perfect for him and he has a cast of beautiful people and needle drops are great and there's some really cool framing shots and there's you know angular minimalist food on big white plates and everybody's drinking and doing cocaine and so it seems like fun.

Sure.

The reason I'm interested in is exactly what you're saying because you okay so what do you the question that needs to be asked at some point but rarely gets asked when there are either network or company mandates or the whims and desires of a super powered producer creator in this case of Ryan Murphy is.

But why are we making this and I want to be clear I'm not doing a thing that I think people like who needed this not saying that although I think there's a reason to say that in some cases but I'm not saying that here I'm saying specifically at the heart of this why are we making this and particularly with period pieces I think that question is worth asking because you can do it multitude of ways but I would reduce it to broadly to one is we are we are point of view adrift with the characters not in period but in their presence.

And we are attuned to the universality of their humanity no matter what the era is and whether they have cell phones or not and so you're living inside of the moments and that's a beautiful thing and so you know you could say you could take mad men or something as an example of that obviously has something to say about who we are now it's being made now but the entire show isn't about wink wink we actually had to call people on the land line you know what I mean no.

The other way to do it would be to take a period of time that is deeply understood culturally emotionally politically as one thing and comment on it and hold it up as a mirror or as a cracked window or whatever you want to do the issue with the shards is through to the first two episodes is that it is a it is very very very excited to transpose the book to the screen sure because

right is not the first two episodes and you can tell that Ryan Murphy who has a reputation for being you know for for having very strong points of view is clearly a big fan which is actually sort of sweet so he's bringing

L.S. is 80s to life better than maybe anyone else ever has but without I would say the being teenager in college is hard universality of rules of attraction and certainly without the ascetic looking backwards

with of Mary herons American psycho so it is totally flat with voice over in which the main character threat says things like back then we didn't have social media we had serial killers so it feels like an incredible

pantomime you have to choose you have to choose I think we're doing okay

you know what I mean and so I found that kind of frustrating even though the second episode I think is even stronger in the first because and by the way

I have to call you to account for this to this is not just a one way thing as a decades long west Bentley completist he's doing good work here

in the course of one modernist minimalist lunch with bread west smokes I believe 13 cigarettes and has five different forms of alcoholic beverages

and I don't know if it's intentional or just sloppy editing but I believe he has white wine red wine martini a glass of brown liquor and I want to say a cocktail is another

kind of fruited coffee cocktail of some kind martini white red brown liquor if I wanted to put myself in a body bag anyway but I still get

after it I mean that's an astonishing run yeah but so and this is all over of course of lunch where there's just like three cubes of salmon and he's

like this is the only restaurant that lay that serves tartar bread you'll love it so if I sold you on the show yet I mean it sounds entertaining

but but all this is to say it is just the slavishly devoted thing that is kind of nothing all at once and so I'm really interested though to hear this reporting that after

two it goes fucking full gaga Murphy verse and apparently is built to run multiple seasons which is in no way what this project would seem to be

but I don't even want to say what it's smart he's Murphy's going to make for sure to the cocaine 80s effects is euphoria yeah like if it gets

their universe right if it gets like American crime story American horror story and yeah yeah if it gets there that's actually not a bad play

but it's kind of in a weird way now we're all over the place but it's having this conversation makes me think a little bit of

what we were saying last week about how effects gave adults a duo a Mulligan a duo over on the pilot like in a way you almost wish Ryan Murphy was making his own American

Brady Sennelis story show where he could just make it up as he went along sure but I don't know it

well Brady Sennelis is no longer on the project he's that vocally like I break up with I think he's very not vocal he said that and then he hasn't said a single thing

the reason why I brought the shards up the reason why I brought that development story up is the same reason why we're talking about these superhero shows

because they often are serving a lot of different purposes and they have a lot of different masters there is the larger thing that the

O'Tourne chief at one of these labels wants to have Fiege James gun there's a super story that they want to tell whether it's

Fiege's whether it's a thematic you know they they have an idea of what they want to do then there are players from networks from production

companies characters who have become indelible those stars start to have a little bit more say on what Hulk would or

wouldn't do or whatever the fascinating thing about this lanterns show is that great for Lanti who had basically been off on his own with

the show's on the air the hardest working man or order but at the CW right well he worked for Warner Brothers all of his shows were on many of his shows

run CW and was running essentially the arrow verse which was like his version of the DC TV universe and had I think six or seven shows each

shows on the air any given moment he's massive cross yeah he did crisis of infinite earths on CW shows yes and had been working on Greenland

lantern show for a while and in this article that I believe it's Leslie Goldberg on Ancler Road which is just talking about the production

or the development process of this story talks about the clashes that he was having with Warner Brothers television where it came to

you know they were looking for something more grounded they wanted a more grounded treatment of this like I think they were looking to make

something sounds like closer watchman yeah or something closer to the truth detective and he was just like that's not what I'm

interested in when it comes to this story how please excuse me there's a Scooby-Doo live action reboot well and then they found they got

Damien Lindell off who did watchman and they got you know Chris Mundey who made Ozark and they've they've made this new lantern show which I can't

wait to watch yeah but is a fascinating long kind of winding way to get to to our screens on Sunday night but I think the thing that the thing that you can

hopefully point to it for the shows that succeed is an early early answer to the question not who are you making this for why are we

making this what is someone generally the showrunner or creator lead writer whatever you want to call it what is that person passionate about and can we

then get other people on board and all row in the same direction to make the same the best version of it you can't do it solely because you want to

tick the box of having that character represented or you want to try to push into television or have complimentary whatever the

the the reporting that I've read suggests that the first person to sort of raise his hand and say this is what I want to do with this it

is a great thing who is in many ways the least known of that trick but is a brilliant comic book writer and also former CIA

analyst and I feel like that would make him a really good guest for us at the point in the future if it won't all be

rejected but he I think I'm as interested in his point of view on the show as I am in the gentle corporate nudging that put

very strong minded creators together and by all accounts create a very very happy additive expansive creative process now I think we

and audiences will be able to tell that I haven't watched the pile yet but I'm very excited to.

But ultimately comes down to the fact that even though at some point during this process James gun and Peter saffron took over at some point the process they checked in on this and whatever was said

back to them or whatever scripts they read past muster with guns stated intention to have a diverse slate of different types of

stories I say reported intention because he has said that publicly but also kind of until this moment we haven't really seen the proof of it

because we've just seen Superman and he is and the very gun-pilled supergirl yes and since he has taken over there's obviously been the

paramount owner brothers merger which is now in in sort of limbo yeah but it's incredibly difficult to pull something that's like a multi-year

storytelling project off when you've also got the winds of change blowing in the industry itself very very

very positions or whether it's technological developments but but so I you know for the for the same reasons that I thought

I was interesting to watch the Reynolds Marcus Green directed Punisher one shot and then see Bernthal do a different version of the same character in spider

man seeing Nathan Phillian do Guy Gardner in this series which I I would imagine this is not reported known as

said this to me but my I imagine that when Tom King was like yeah I'll do this as a grounded version and no

point was he like and Guy Gardner will also show up playing by known comedic charismatic presence

and it's really who's James guns dude yeah so here we so here we are but like look if the end game of all of

this despite like some personal again perfect like some things that I'm pissed off about getting canceled or

a wish we had if the end result of this after many many many years and many many wasted

millions is a more streamlined process in which only the things that really have that spark or

fire make it to air I think it's a win because best case scenario here you get now you and I didn't love

penguin but I think we were in the minority and I think the majority of HBO max subscribers felt that the

penguin was a worthwhile inheritor of the Sunday like this is HBO we understand why this is HBO so there's a reason for this

and I think similarly lanterns looks to be in that category as well which is great and but crazily enough no

second season of the penguin yet but again I think that's not even but I think that's another good for me

that's that's a good outcome and I'm not saying because I didn't like the show and I'm certainly not

saying it because I don't want the talented people who worked on it to work I'm saying that if they

successfully told a story about this character that worked I think it's like with the

it's like with the mayor of east town thing we're like we would fucking love more seasons of that

show but my sense is the people involved at the time were like but why would we mess with something

that worked you know it worked we did it we told a story and we don't say enough of that separate

apart from the fact that I mean I don't know if Colin Farrell wants to put that make up on again

I don't know either yeah but look and by the way just just you know inside or behind not even

inside baseball like up where Brad Pitt said in the money ball movies when he wouldn't actually

watch the game I say this as someone in the gym actually we didn't sit he was working he was lifting

yeah well that's what I was getting okay but that's down like you were like up in the seats

where he's sitting like he's in the sweets that's not what he was doing no I just like you personal

best yeah I mean I say this as someone who is actively and is and has been working on a Warner

Brothers HBO show that has IP and I will say that that's not my project and not my show but like

this is a this is a valid and living conversation yeah yeah of like what is the what is the best

reason to be doing this I think what I'm most fascinated by it by all of this and we can we can get

on to furious now but what fascinates me most and maybe it's a good segue because I think one of

the things I like about furious so much is it's just a very very well thought out TV show such a good TV show

is we made a great grand swing of this kind of hybrid theatrical

televisual storytelling model both in terms of limited and the series anthology series

bringing big big screen genre to the small screen even though many people don't make that

distinction anymore but whether it's rings of power or take your pick of any of the super expensive

sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last couple of years or these very very highly

valuable properties like Star Wars Marvel and DC and sometimes in the back of my head I'm like maybe

Greg Melanti had it right like the way because he just made a TV show yeah because he just knew how to like

he knew that there was a one-to-one relationship between flipping through an

an issue of a comic book and getting through a 42 minute television show yeah that had some

commercials and that there was a transactional nature and a fun like cool my stories on

kind of relationship people could have and it didn't have this like fuck I have to watch the

post credit sequence of iron heart to understand what's happening on this movie coming out in two

years maybe you know like because of my fist that's right that's right I was trying to tell

everybody but you know everybody's a deployed wolf and then he showed up yeah many

any fucking showed up was the devil let's take a quick break we'll come back and we'll do sure

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so we're going to be talking about furious through episode five episodes six will be airing on Sunday

we haven't spoken about it I think you would watch two when we first talked I'd watched I'd watch all the ones

that were up okay so you watch the first three I'd watch the first three and there's a lot of different

places we can go with this but the one thing I would ask is you know as I've been watching this series

I've been thinking about other crime shows that I've loved over the last several years

and I was reminded of the night of which is another series that I think is interested in the consequences of crime

and the reasons behind a crime and also the total cost across a community of people

and also had to at some point in its run like solve it you know it has to you know you can't just have

here's six episodes of a mystery that just befuddled people you know now furious is much different

we it's not who done it we know who's doing it it's a matter of whether or not like what this person is doing

is is she going to get caught doing it essentially there's also a mystery within her own

she's also trying to solve a mystery the criminal yes yes especially since her memory is spotty

yeah because you know so I wanted to ask you whether or not you detected in the same way that I detected

with the night of with true detective with various other great crime shows from this this era the turn

the turn towards now we act rather than world building and like alluding to things

and really doing character moments that were we're turning towards a conspiracy that's being unraveled

or and do you necessarily think that's a flaw I think it's a great question I think my answer is no

and I think my answer is no because in the spirit of all really good really exciting and compelling

genre television or genre at its best what we're seeing is the work of a creator who is using a familiar rhythm

to create an original melody and play it over top of it the thing about this show that I find dazzling is that it

it it has a like just being on hulu just the way that it presented itself like you can the log line

it's going to attract eyeballs I think because true crime sex crimes like these things are the bread and butter

you were saying of Netflix like these are these are these are very tried and true investigative stuff like this is very

tried and true television to get an audience knowing that you have that buy in already what Liz Mary

whether it's done with a show I find so thrilling because every single scene a choice is made in it whether it's like dialogue

whether it's casting whether it's stakes that surprises me every scene is alive where I think that generally when things make that turn

we notice the turn being made what we're feeling is the feeling of well this driverless car at least knows the route

you know what I mean this car has a fucking driver and the driver has a personality and the driver continues to do things that go against our

expectations such as I mean you could you could throw up you could name half a dozen throw them on the table we could talk about them

the fact that for example the Alden character and the fact that Catherine is by you know a fairly attentive and caring professional

nurse for this guy with this particular set of circumstances and relationship to her I think that's introduced in

episode three yeah like that that's a no no from executives and from development and Scott popping up in episode

for the great and it's not just the character of the Campbell Scott you would now that we're talking about

through episode five we could talk about that so in episode four hope Davis is character who he'd seen before

arrives with a lawyer who I don't believe we'd seen before and it's played by a

you know Jen X hero Campbell Scott so instantly I'm more interested you know the casting whether it's him or the actor

I'll call it up in a second who plays Ed George I'm like that I think that's his name the the ASAC at the FBI the person

who had been working with Nora earlier in the decade on the case and the number one example is Nora herself a

Quincy Quincy Bernstein's performance like these are all really interesting performers that make you pay attention

and are doing things that we're not expecting in every moment but yeah you bring him in and you see that she's

doing something Catherine doing something but you don't realize she's hunting him and that he's going to be the focus of it

like they're these little bits of subterfuge that feel thrilling within the larger framework of the story

I would say the same thing for almost everything Alice does in relation to her abusers played by Jake Lacey

Marshall it's going to some really really bold and very I would say risky from a storytelling perspective

perspective places with it and going there unapologetically with no breaks

Yeah I think it's knowing especially the the the sequence in which she essentially sets him up

right is very knowingly depicted in the same fashion that Catherine's murders are depicted

where she is clocking this person not monitoring their behavior figuring out in advance

what different things could happen and is setting them up.

I mean there are many ways in which and I think we are the we are not the ideal interlocutors of the idea that this is a very

very both feminist and very female created television show but one of the things that the show is absolutely committed to that I love

is making us as viewers and as male viewers understand that when when Scoot McNary's character Danny Kelly

or what's his name Rob Yang's character choice of the hapless FBI agent when they walk into rooms

they have very very little to think about other than their job and maybe what they're getting for lunch

when the women walk into rooms instantly they have to think about 6,000 things

everything from physical proximity to past history to how they are being perceived and presented

how they are like everything with Catherine or with Alice up until that martial moment

there's all this speculation like why does she have these bruises?

Yes because she's gotten like willingly assaulted by a like a lover that she met on internet application

Yeah and everything internet applications she's really finger on the pulse there

Can I join the CIA Tom King? I've got a fair be a job

I've got a number of applications on my phone in addition to my CIA application

Yeah I just think that that is such a subtle thing and again like that is folded into Emmy Rossum's performance as well

which I think has had surprising layers and reveals to it and I think that we'll see where else it has to go

but there's I think a potential criticism of the first episode would be you could and maybe I said this last week I apologize

but like you almost could feel how much she prepared for this part of an FBI agent

like I would felt like she was showing us her work by the time the second episode started I realized that what we were seeing was Alice's public presentation

Sure

of having done the work to be a different person and that there are actually layers to the performance and subtleties that I am only beginning to pick up on and appreciate

The other flip side of it is and I wonder if you have analogies to this as well from other crime shows

just top of mind but Catherine played by Lola Petacru

It is it is no small thing I think that a villain, the murderer who does awful terrible shit

also is granted a full humanity and it's not a full humanity in the sense in the cheaper sense that these shows often do

where maybe like in between murders like they glance at a folded up picture of a family they once had

Sure

She does carry a folded up picture it is not of that and the tenderness with which she she's able to access with Alden is significant

The moments with Hal the Campbell Scott character where he is you know desperate for his life but also briefly you can see him reclaim his masculinity in the world

masculinity in that scene where he's like oh she's just a broken little girl who wants to be complimented

It is a casting stroke of genius

I mean obviously you and I are probably in this weird like vocal minority of like Campbell Scott super fans or whatever

It's like he should you're if the rewatchables had started 10 years earlier you would have had a Campbell Scott take equal to the Lou quilson take

Right

Yeah I can't even think of what it should be because he is an actor who

He does things I don't think you can necessarily teach or scout like the reason that scene works is because of the tenor of his voice

And he's had that tenor of his voice going back to like singles and dying young but it's that warmth and that sensitivity

That even though this guy is Jay Easton's attorney who was brought in to clean up a murder scene

Yep

He's he does sound paternaly genuinely interested in Catherine

Now he's also a lawyer so I imagine there is you know as we see with his fate you know like there's a degree to which it's manipulation

And there's a degree to which and I think that that's kind of what's really cool about the show is that there can be these very sincere emotional moments

Between Alden and Catherine between Catherine and Rob Delaney's character's daughter between even Alison Marshall

You know there is a moment but that moment is not the only thing that's happening in that scene

Like what's also happening is this person is being pushed to get something that the other character wants from them

This is the thing that I think is really impressive and again kind of hard to articulate tried last week

The show is so deeply about trauma and how we live post trauma but it contains the imagination in the creative space to show a world in which trauma exists

To show a world in which life exists before during and after traumatic incidents so that it doesn't feel any necessity to hold our hand about how to feel about Marshall

It allows the space for Alice to show us through her through word and emotion indeed and performance

What this person meant to her in her life and then what happened which only serves the drama in the sense that it compounds how hideously violating and violent and awful what happened was

Because we understand the circumstances that as a larger story

It's also very confrontational with the audience which I really appreciate because the audience for these kinds of shows I include myself in that audience are I don't know we're kind of animals

Like you know like why am I watching this stuff as much as I do I'm like talk about that with lioness like it's like it's probably not good for the soul to be so interested in the darkest parts of humanity

I actually have that written in my notes but I was going to say it to you as a like a cautionary tale I was going to actually be like intervention

But you know this fascinating aspect of Mary whether brings you into scenes and you are like I kind of know where this is going

And I feel weird about watching it you know I feel weird watching her watching Catherine like I know what's going to happen to to how I know what's going to happen to Marshall I know what's going to happen to these people

And like the world view of the show is such that I think it's like you have to basically behave in these certain ways to survive

Right, but I find it very confrontational in a very refreshing way while never not entertaining and never not provocative

I'm trying to think of how it would be handled me God you know I don't know how a man would have made this show but like yeah but like I'm trying to think of like how different storytellers would have handled just the central like mystery

Which there isn't but like the procedural element of it and whether or not certain things like Nora's involvement in the 2012 murder

I mean that's that's always I mean that isn't to your point about like that's an old piece of story that's like an old pipe that fit into this

The idea that she is somehow complicit and this is her past and her own failings and all of that and it's going to be a trauma for her

What's interesting is the character of Nora and Quincy Tyler Bernstein casting I mean we should for the purposes of like ongoing bits which I know we need more of

We need like the we can call in the Okra mall stars after the guy in department q where it's just like a single casting choice on a secondary character not only elevates the show

But makes us fall completely in love with the performer and want more and she is so in that

There's only right there are multiple scenes where

I would love to know if I'm right about this I feel like you can see Emmy Rossum being like holy shit

Yes, she's acting with her yes and I like a fan of it like into it. Yeah, yeah, I think I want to be careful about this statement

Because I think we all remember the film this is 40 but generally I do want to encourage more

Comedians and comic writers to branch out of their

John Reghetto yeah, because this is you know, this is sees weapons once but like I am definitely going to like

It will and also the Jordan Peel movies like I do think that there is something to this thing that we've talked about repeatedly at Nazim

The like comic right comedy writers pivoting to horror like

This is Liz Maryweather's like Magnum Opus in a different completely different field than the new girl, you know, it's it's wild to me and it's clearly done with love and affection for the genre

Which hopefully I hope he gets talked to her about that specifically, but this show

I mean, I understand people checking it out and maybe your mileage may vary about the subject matter or the way that it's presented or

You know

Some of the maybe you get tripped up on the tropes that we're saying are actually not weird, but that's not the view that's just the drive

But like the reason I'm so fired up about it and I cannot wait to watch the next episode is because of the spirit of it is so creatively surprising

The scene seen to scene

Moment to moment the actor I was going to say Danny McCarthy plays asek ed George and just like again

There are I'm sure the the casting director we should probably get the name of and shout out. I'm sure there were 20

Incredibly capable actors who could have played that part and been like this is a small part, but I get it

He's bringing something that makes every time he's on the screen to imagine that guy leading a health and wellness

Yes, well right. It's given again. It's the writing is giving him a

The character is written to have some surprise built in but just the way that he smiles the way that he shut her down in the elevator

The way that she's long gaming to upend him is like it's delightful to watch

It's there's a lot of cat and mouse games inside of the larger cat and mouse game anything else you wanted to hit about this

I love it. I don't know. I feel like I'm just a broken record at this point. Would you say after this many episodes?

It's it's in your top five top three. Yeah

You're you're you're a recency baby

That is a hundred percent true. Have you seen weapons?

It's quite good

Might even get some Oscar buzz

We've been podcasting for about an hour and five minutes. Okay. We cut we covered

The world of television and movies and this industry and technology

Intotality and we've talked in depth about furious. I hope we people feel like we talked in depth about it

Well, well, we were kind of thrown by timing, but now we will pick it up whether

I don't know if it's is it a Monday or Thursday show for us? It'll be a Monday show

So we'll talk about lanterns and we'll talk about episode six of furious on Monday. Great. But for now

I'd like the lights to come down just a little bit. Oh, no brother. Okay. It's getting inside the cage

Did you plan this lighting it's a lion, but it's a lady in the cage with me. Uh-huh. I

Can only be who I am

This is good. We should begin with like this is like a like a a meeting begin with a me a call times Chris. Yeah, and I'm an alcoholic for

Zoysaldana

Lifting weights and listening to the news and then saying pop smoke and go into Ukraine and

arresting or kidnapping a Russian agent who had like a little tracker in his armpit that they cut out. Yeah

How far did you get into this first episode?

There's two out, but we're just gonna you're gonna talk broadly about the third season of lioness here. Yeah. I first of all

Did you get to the dogs?

I love you and I respect your choices and I think one of the keys to a healthy relationship

Professional, otherwise is to give each other space, you know to pursue their own passions

Yeah, you know without free of judgment

Unfortunately, this is a critical podcast said that last part. I don't know if I can make good on I I

Just wanted did you get to the dogs? I didn't get to dogs. I think I made it to you a bunch of people

I made it to a bunch of people

shooting heavy caliber munitions

At and under drones in Ukraine. Yeah, and then I was like

Honestly, I'm 49 years old

Like how much time how much time do I have left? I'm 48 so maybe that's probably like

Yeah, get to me younger kind of guy

That's also that's the secret sauce of all podcasts. You know what I mean peanut butter and jelly like two different

generational perspectives. Let's talk in November and we'll see

There's a scene early on in this

when

Nicole Kidman was on the television show with Martin Donovan who started multiple how heartly movies and the

Film Tenet as her husband. Yeah, the trader trades

Yeah, they are having a

Light breakfast Al fresco Al fresco lovely, you know DC the district is wonderful that time of year

I'm sure they're safely in Virginia. I don't think the novels of George Pelicano start occurring just beyond

their six acres

The used recorder pop it off Joe Young Joe House. No, it's temporary Joe

House

Just down the street they are having breakfast and Nicole is just

staring at a hard copy of the the Gray Lady the New York Times and

You know what I'm just gonna make sure I'm just gonna do it. It says the end of democracy

Trussion line in the New York Times and the picture is like some clouds because like like some smoke like someone has thrown a some sort of

Smoke bomb, be it a antifa warrior or

90s Arab Batman unclear either way really

That's why the DC use off TV the ideas are too crazy

Says the end of democracy

Martin Donovan then gives a

Sturring monologue which now I want you to fact check me because as mentioned I did have a cocktail yesterday

So maybe I when did and did you watch this after the cocktail? I think they were connected. Okay in retrospect I would have reversed it and had the drink after

But I believe he begins a monologue about how the greatest investor in America's universities

The Chinese foreign nations so is it any wonder that the students of these universities now espoused

Communist leaning philosophies. I don't know that he used the seaworth

He says communist. Oh, he does okay. You 100% bus

Okay, and he's like

Taylor Sheridan head of the curve again. I know

And then he's like so of course these reporters, you know think that they're onto something when in fact clearly they just all like he doesn't say this part

But essentially they are marching to their own little red stations funded by foreign governments that have indoctrinated them to hate the country

Yes, yes, and then he's like one POV no, but this is my favorite part is like his heart

His version of the David Ellison op-ed where he's just like I just called balls and strikes and like to make movies is he's like so

Anyone who went to college in America or works in journalism is a fucking dirty red

That said no, let me finish. He's like that said the real existential enemy is AI and then the scene ends

No, it's like you and it's like you can't guess

Which is it which is bad the scene ends? I know because she gets black bagged in her suburban

Yeah, and then six months earlier we go back and again

It does the thing one of the other things that her suspect about Taylor Sheridan is a obviously his politics keep you guessing

They do wow they do two two

He is you know, we're like well, he's immune to notes

He's also immune to industry trends because no one made it to like the what is it the triple sixes ranch or whatever?

Yeah, I was like sir sir tears in their eyes audiences are turning against the six months earlier conceit right

So he does that and then and then rough to the races look I just think

We all

Have to express ourselves in in different ways and so maybe this is our podcast version of on the Italian job rewatchables when Van

eloquently spoke about a porn adaptation of the Italian job that he had imagined down to like he cast it

He had whole the admissions

Paulton crime families worrying sex acts. Yes him talking about that in the way that that satisfies his

Basis urges is kind of in the face you made is kind of the face I'm making when you watch the show

because

I'm willing to I'm willing to look the lights have changed. I'm not we're not gonna talk about I think to be completely honest

Yes, if I want to talk about lioness you have some fortune groups

I think that van will probably be joining me because van has called me seven times in the last

two weeks and told me that I'm actually a coward because I hadn't caught up yet because I was on vacation

Yeah, yeah, and I was like good man like when when we get enough when we get a foothold yeah on on the front in Ukraine

Like we can talk about it like I want to see what this is about

Let me tell you something because I can't believe you quit watching because I think you missed something small point

If there's any way we could do a hard cut and just start the pot like just cut away to you and then van is sitting here

wearing a tasteful shacket with three drinks the hardest of which is a day old green tea and you just continue the conversation

That's cold. I just want to tell you about one thing that happens in this episode

Please so obviously like here's the recap of the first episode Joe

Lifts weights takes a shower her husband tries to join her in the shower. But guess what it's cold

It's cold and he's like ah it's so cold and she's like it's good for inflammation

Yeah, and he's like so's ad villain. She's like I want my body to do it not a pill

I mean open your third eye brother. You don't know that's how I feel about anxiety, but please continue um and then it turns out that you know a

A Russian agent is being offered up to them it turns out somehow a Russian agent has returned

Go on you did you see the scene where the lioness crew goes to Georgetown? Yes, yes, they all exercise

Yeah, they're all pretending to be like and then the best part is then they're like guess we're going to Ukraine

They're like oh shit. Yeah, it's a wrong day to when they get to Ukraine

This is probably where you turned it off because they they're they're running to the house and there's all these drones above them

There were a lot of drones. Yeah, when they get to a how like a cabin and they go down like to a bunch of sub levels

And then they get there and there's a bunch of CIA people a bunch of army people US. Yeah, based

And um, it's like well who's gonna lead this expedition because we we're not gonna use Joe's team

They're not trained in trench warfare drone warfare who's gonna lead us

It's Taylor Sheridan. I had heard it's Cody

I actually had heard this and I think I that may be a reason why I looked away and he

He becomes then the central character of the second half of the first episode of the third season of lioness

great, and uh, do you think he leads a team of delta guys with

German shepherds who eat fucking Russians

How do you and North Koreans? It's fucking disgusting. So you train them specifically

So you have like racist dogs to begin with

They are German shepherds

100% that's true. It's not like they're like how did you make this teddy bear? How did you take this fucking doodle

This golden doodle and make him um

One of the dogs doesn't make it though

Oh back yeah, and the breeder is quite upset

Yeah, I know because you know how much hate speech if they filter into the kennel

I don't know what to say. Can I do another question? I'm much lots of shows

I'm like how long if I've been sitting in front of this TV it has to have been two hours and it's like eight minutes

And with lioness like time flies by it like I

I am engaged. I'm leaning in you know, I come to this place. You're leaning in one direction for sure

I think it's little bit to the

This thing is I can separate the art and the artist. It's beautiful. I'm sorry

I guess that makes you the asshole

First of all, I do I would love to know the background of Taylor Sheridan being cast in that part

We're like they did an exhaustive search for like there was a background. He's like I'm playing

I know I'm just saying the can you imagine though?

They're like we've done an exhaustive search of the nation's jar heads and like we just can't find anyone with the mortal conviction

It could read no and it's just like fine. I'll come off the sidelines to do this

um

I genuinely I was trying to come up with a way to talk to you about this that would preserve our friendship

But also they would not be just negativity you can't I know and scare me but there's also like

Genuinely the headlines of our landman coverage is often like what the fuck but every so often there are moments of bizarre

Either it's just like perceptiveness or or local color or some sense of a world that we haven't seen before before he gets distracted

Oh, you spent a lot of time on the front lines of Ukraine

That's that's a world you've seen before seen it all before brother

Uh every morning I have breath breakfast outside and pour over the war coverage in the failing New York Times

People point to fairly his like he can't keep you guessing

Like his world view and the things that he feels strongly about

Don't necessarily fit neatly into one tribe or the other and he loves pushing those buttons and I think the uh the college roommate being a big example of that

In the last season of landman. Yeah, I think the the problem I have with his shows and this is genuinely a problem with landman

Is that he always whether he believes this or not he always defaults to a complete credulity in faith in the most

Either rich in the case of landman or the most powerful in the case of lioness and like the full

You know the full like armament and awe and majesty and destructive power of the United States government if they were just finally

If the woke handcuffs came on, you know what I mean?

And I find that really boring because the thing about landman is like

The dude like the the the the chief boss and like the scene where like he has they have the barbecue and like they all show up like

He's showing people who do a really fucking gnarly job for a living and most shows are not interested in that right

But the show can't help itself by being like ultimately what I'm interested in is the rich guy is gonna

It's gonna work out for him and he's gonna get richer and his wife's gonna be able to go shopping on a private jet

That bums me out and so the thing with this show too is like I just wish it had a little more curiosity about

The cracks in the world as opposed to being like you fucking sheep will don't get it

We need this. I don't really know if I need it to do that. I mean I think I know I'm trying to put and or like

I think I find it more broadly entertaining to watch a highly violent Tom Clancy. Yeah

I'm trying to put like a British barrister wig on your feet. I'm not gonna make you watch this

This is this is not gonna be a running bit on the show. I do think that

For whatever it's worth at the end of the episode when they get done with this incredible

violent like exercise in Ukraine. They're like this is

This is way beyond like our comprehension of what more fair is supposed to be like and at one point like one of the characters is like

These guys it's like I'm it's like world world one meets Star Wars here because it's all of like these

drones and robot robotic armaments

But it's also people like running in trenches and it's like so it's like whether or not it's a realistic depiction of that combat theater

I have no idea

I

Would say it gets to about 60% right

Um

Anyway

Every once in a while maybe I'll check in but you know

Van and I will we'll get in the cage together next to what are vans other like

Where else is he gonna take the show when he replaces me? I mean vans very busy. I can't overly

Leverage him, you know like it I need you around a little okay

Yeah coming off the bench for some like high-minded like well drops of God season three is back

Let me tell you my important parody of that well how do you work historically is like this?

That mean it's good

It's good

Canonically it's inaccurate, but I'm willing to make you to know about two things you cranian front

Green lantern

That's why your value wouldn't mean no come on you're my guy. We take this show together. Yeah, it's it's a waymo with two wheels. Yeah

So it's the way it's a waymo bicycle

Hahaha

Except I'm on the front like like Titanic when I was in Portland the other week

A couple rode by me on a tandem bike

Both wearing and 95 masks

That's like did you did you have anything to say no? Did you did you tell them about work one? No, I was just sitting in my Honda

rented

Because you like to be able to move at any time

You never know when

Then the Russians are gonna know I get it. I don't even know why I told that

Just watching this people on bikes being like if that you think dogs are prejudice

Must be nice. You know who defends that freedom for you fucking lionesses

Just walk around just shaking your head being like these people have no idea

I deal with

Their $30 sandwiches. Yeah, they're fucking orange wines. I just you know what it is

Yeah, I can move between spaces there. Yeah, no, this is why you are ultimately electable

You know what I mean like you you could you can play in both worlds

Like you may lean that way, but you didn't endorse french has gone. That's why I froze my eggs just to sort of

You know like you never know what my future is gonna be

You know

Flags next to kayaking Sarah. That's a great that's part of your pitch for the male reboot of furious. Yeah

I've got some notes

I didn't say that I said god forbid a guy had made that god forbid

You protest a little much oh

Furious put for him who says no

You

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