Houses of Horror: The Lizzie Borden Mystery and a Possible Serial Killer in Philly

It's market day in Nuremberg, autumn, 1581.

The printing presses is over a hundred years old by this time and literacy rates in the

towns and cities of the Holy Roman Empire are low, but rising, you are one of these literate

urban dwellers, a merchant strolling the market.

You move goods from the countryside to the towns and as such, you're eager for news

from around the empire.

You stop in front of a stall and lean over to read a pamphlet, warthig zeitung von Peter

nationed from signer Gischelt.

True news of Peter Neers and his company.

The infamous outline is banned were executed just a little while back, but his name still sells

papers, 440 murders, untold numbers of robberies.

That's all news.

You find something fresher next to it from up the road near Cologne.

Christmann of Krippen was executed at Bergassel on the 17th of June, a monster of a man.

You read that he confessed to nearly 1,000 murders and said that if he had reached 1,000,

it would not have satisfied him.

You read about his fortress cave deep in the woods, stocked with supplies.

You read how he attacked anyone, not traveling in groups of three or more.

Now, after a particularly good haul, he would poison his accomplices so he would not have

to share the loot.

You pay for the pamphlet and read as you stroll.

The details of his capture are extraordinary.

You read how he kidnapped a woman from Bop Art on the Rhine.

He intended to kill her, but instead decided to keep her around with him.

She bore him six children of which he murdered all of them in horrific fashion.

Eventually, she begged to visit her old town.

He made her swear notes to not betray him and he let her go.

She apparently led the authorities back to the cave by dropping keys from the sack.

Authorities found goods worth more than 70,000 golden in his lair.

You note with interest that nothing is said of what happened to the goods.

This is way to second, houses of Holtar.

This episode is brought to you by Paramount Plus.

Let Chaos reign.

Mobland, the hit crime series from the Android, a guy richy is now streaming on Paramount Plus.

The arrogance are on the brink of uncivil war.

As power plays, fractured loyalties and reckless decisions collide.

Their fixer Harry is left to clean up the fallout.

Don't miss Mobland starring Tom Hardy, Pierce Bros and Helen Mirren.

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You in must be 21 to enter.

This is Wait a second.

I'm Jason Gatsepsino as always.

That is Tyler Parker.

What's up?

Today, we talk about some some some murder.

Murder I may have.

Historical and current.

Let's start here with the famed Lizzie Borden quattrain.

Lizzie Borden took an axe, gave her mother 40 wax.

And when she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.

Now this is not historically accurate.

The whack count.

No.

Much lower.

It's definitely a stylization choice there.

I agree.

For on the part of the...

Syllabalic.

Whoever.

Rhythm keeping.

You know, 40 wax sounds pretty good.

It sounds pretty good.

But this poem really travels.

It's come down to us through the years.

Yes.

We're discussing this because of monster, the Lizzie Borden story.

Another Ryan Murphy production, which debuted a few days ago.

We're recording this on September 21st.

Debuted last week.

And you know, it's really a timeless tale that dovetails nicely

with some current things that are going on.

So on the morning of August 4th, 1892,

Andrew Borden, 69 year old wealthy mill owner,

and his wife Abby, 64, his second wife, were killed with a hatchet-type weapon

inside their house at 92 Second Street in Fall River, Fall Rive.

The locals call it, Massachusetts.

Abby was slain first upstairs.

Andrew died roughly 90 minutes later as he napped in the sitting room.

And Abby, they think she was making the bed?

She seemed to be making the bed and then perhaps fleeing from her tracker.

Sure.

Went face down on the ground.

Yeah.

Andrew's younger daughter, Lizzie, 32 years of age at the time,

was arrested about a week later, tried the following June.

And acquitted.

Shockingly question mark on June 20th, 1893 after about 90 minute, a brisk.

Yeah.

90 of jury deliberation.

No, they ripped through it.

No weapon.

Well, we'll we will enter you all these.

No weapon, blooded clothing or eyewitness testimony was ever conclusively

used to tie her to the crime.

The court throughout various of her own

contradictory statements that were made to the police at the inquest.

The case was obviously national news and created this poem.

Yeah.

The author of which is lost to us.

And national news from day one.

This is big news.

They took over the newspapers.

Huge, huge news nationwide, massive, massive interest at this date, 1892,

across the country in this particular murder, which seemed to have, and we must say this is

kind of why.

One is white on white crime.

This is like,

sure.

Shocking for the time.

Yes.

We couldn't find any kind of

black or brown

suspect that just happened to be passing through town though the police did try.

They tried to find a Portuguese guy, right?

They did try to find a Portuguese guy.

They found one.

Yeah.

And we can get into that and they didn't manage to to

unfortunately pin that on this clearly innocent drifter.

But the details of the case, I think, and clearly the police thought as well,

make it hard to come to any other conclusion than a very small set of people could have possibly

done this.

And they are Lizzie, Lizbit, Borden, who was charged with the crime,

Bridget Sullivan, the Irish domestic maid called Maggie by Lizzie, who was upstairs in the house.

And John Morse,

Lizzie's uncle, who was visiting but was in a very detailed alibi,

found to not be at the house at the time.

Let's bring in our, uh,

a producer Justin, who is an expert in this trial to discuss facts of the case.

Justin, welcome.

It's all right.

Very excited.

I also grew up 10 minutes from here.

So, um, very familiar with the Lizzie Borden case.

It's it fall river for those of, uh, us who are not aware is really in the same way that

Staten Island is culturally New Jersey.

Mm-hmm.

It's really culturally Providence, Rhode Island.

Exactly.

Okay.

100%.

In fact, one of the things that might come up in this episode is the fact that the police were

actually on their little annual outing at a amusement park in Providence or 10 minutes

out the Providence when this was going on.

So, you have a crime scene that you actually couldn't get the best evidence from because

you had the JV team there that came in immediately after.

Now, let me stop you there.

We are talking about the 1892 police force, fall river police force.

And JV or not, they did try to pin it on a drifter.

This is not like CSI.

Two Portuguese people.

Do you know why they arrested these two guys?

They're migrants, right?

One of them because he took money out of the bank that day.

Okay.

Got it.

Well, okay.

The other one, he asked directions to New York.

He asked how to get to New York and they're like, well, obviously.

Oh, I mean, that's a hotbed of sin and, uh, you know,

let me lay out some activity.

Let me lay out some of the facts of the case, Justin.

Feel free to chime in whenever.

So, Abby was in the second floor guest room where it appeared she was making the bed.

She was struck in the back of the head 19 times per various sources.

90 minutes or thereabouts pass.

At that time, Andrew, who was downstairs in the sitting room, is struck 10 or 11 times as he

napped.

I didn't know what hit him and was and subsequently died.

Now, the layout of the house we should say is interesting.

For one thing, the doors were locked from the inside.

Correct?

Yes.

And then, uh, the the doors of the house, correct?

The doors to the house, the outside doors to the house.

And the house was laid out essentially like a duplex.

The areas where the board and sisters stayed were upstairs.

And then the the board and the parents stayed downstairs and to get from one area to the other,

you had to like go downstairs across and then back up the stairs to where the daughters were.

So essentially, these were two separate living arrangements.

There is some conflicting reports about where if one wanted to wash, could

one could find water.

There was a, uh, there's some testimony that there was like a sink in the basement.

My understanding of the house has always been one flush toilet in the basement.

Right.

One spigot in the basement.

Right.

Was it a spigot?

Water?

Yes.

Yep.

And no running water in the two living areas of the house.

No, the floors.

There was a water out in the barn, however, which is outside the house, but close by.

Um, you're saying they had a full, we were flush and toilets in 1992.

We were doing, yeah, we were doing that good for us.

But there were, I do have to say that the flush, the, the number of women in this house outnumbered

the number of flush toilets four to one.

So it's kind of a crazy situation.

Yeah.

Um, so this, there's, this case for me, and there's various theories which we can go through.

This case to me comes down to the 90 minute gap, much like the John Van A case.

You kill, you say you're an outsider, you stumble across the house.

It's locked, but you get in.

Forget how you get in.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, you're looking for stuff.

Maybe you want like some jewelry, something you can sell real quick.

You come across, um, Abby and second floor guest room see slay her.

Yeah.

And you hang around for 90 minutes?

That's the hard, it's, it's hard to reconcile that when like,

he's not, what is he, what are you doing?

You're checking around like, uh, looking for other stuff.

Maybe they got some really good, uh, Faulkner in here.

This is crazy.

And at the time, um, as we stated, Bridges Sullivan, the Irish made was home as well as,

Lizzie.

So people are home and you're just like hiding, which is why to me,

it can only be one of the three people or perhaps all.

Lizzie, Bridges Sullivan.

And then John Moore.

So John Moore's talking about the, talk about how detailed and yeah,

John Moore's has an incredibly to the minute alibi that feels a little too

detailed to me.

Yes, before we get into the alibi though, yes.

Yes.

We should talk about why he's very suspicious in this case.

Okay.

Because he rolls into town the day before the killings.

Allegedly to discuss business, he wants to buy a pair of oxen as one does at the time.

Yes.

He shows up in a visit that appears so hastily planned,

which I'm not sure if that works for him against him.

He doesn't even bring a toothbrush.

He shows up without a toothbrush.

And by the way, we should say that it was a, but we don't know, is that like a,

we don't know how I mean like back then, like I see,

are we brushing our teeth all the time back then?

Fair enough.

But yes, John Moore's is not in the house the morning of the murders.

Okay.

I thought he ate breakfast.

He ate breakfast.

Sorry.

He eats breakfast and he leaves by nine o'clock.

Okay.

Okay.

He goes across town to visit another niece, not Lizzie, not Emma,

another niece and buy a pair of oxen.

He is out of the house when the murders happen.

He comes back about an hour after they happen.

He walks in the house around noon, says what the hell happened here?

And he has an alibi in Jason.

What is that alibi?

He was doing business outside in the town.

He had some business to take care of.

And doesn't he have, he's, he's giving within his alibi,

he's giving specific like carriages he wrote in,

the people that were in the carriages with all that stuff.

Yeah.

From this time to this time, I was here, from this time to this time,

I was with this person.

And apparently that old checked out, correct?

Yeah.

And it's just a little, like he remembers

like having conversations with a group of priests

on the cable car or whatever.

Very memorable day.

Yes.

I remember the names of everybody that I have the conversation

with on the bus, right?

But it's a little weird.

He shows up to town day before and then has this incredibly

detailed alibi.

But nonetheless, he has an alibi.

Do you have a theory of the case?

I don't know.

We'll get to that at the end.

I want to walk through this and then we'll get to it at the end

because I think that just while we disagree on some of the specifics

on this, because we've been talking about this beforehand,

I think we ultimately arrive in a very similar place.

It had to be one of these three people.

I don't think it was Lizzy.

I don't think that, interesting.

I don't think that Lizzy Borden picked up that hatchet

and swung it 31 times and killed her dad and her stepmom.

Can I ask something?

Sure.

Definitely the novice coming to this case.

Sure.

But it would deal with two experts here.

If I'm coming at somebody with an axe

and I'm hitting them in the head hard,

yeah.

My assumption is this is going to make some noise.

It is.

And I understand that these parts of the house are a little

they're separated from each other.

But if someone's downstairs,

if someone's downstairs or even upstairs,

you hear a thumps maybe.

You hear something, right?

But dad, this is post-breakfast.

Dad's passed out.

Dad is.

Well, dad leaves the house as well.

Yes.

And he comes back very tired.

So, right.

So, well, another important thing to point out

is there's a whole poison thread to this.

Yeah, let's talk about that.

Right.

Right.

So, the whole family had been throwing up for like three, four days.

Right.

We should note that in the wake of the murders,

Lizzie has interviewed the whole household has interviewed by police.

Lizzie is, we must say,

unable to maintain a consistent story about her activities.

She was making fish fishing sinkers.

Right.

At one point, she was then in the loft eating pairs.

Some bloody clothing found was because of her menstrual cycle or something else.

And a local drugist testified,

but their testimony was not included in trial,

that Lizzie had come the morning before, day before.

It was the morning before.

The morning before the murders to inquire about

plastic acid, a deadly poison,

and that was just denoted previously.

The family seemed to be suffering from the effects of some sort of

food poisoning illness, a stomach-borne illness.

Can I stop you there, though?

That poison thread has been a cause of much speculation over the years.

However, one, when they did the autoxies,

they never found poison in the bodies of Abby or Andrew.

Again, we will just say 1892 scientific method.

Sure. Number two,

this family didn't know how to use a fucking ice box.

They left oversword fish that had been left out for days,

and that probably caused them all to puke.

Yeah, that'll do it.

And then when they hadn't fully recovered.

Okay.

They ate mutton stew that had been left on the stove for days on end.

And they were, while this is all happening,

this family is just outside puking their gut.

They're taking turns puking their gut cell.

And meanwhile, not only that same day that Lizzie

allegedly went to the drugstore to buy the plastic acid,

which by the way, to clean a seal skin cape,

which is possibly the most horrifying set of words in this entire story.

Abby was at the family doctor saying,

I think we're being poisoned.

And the doctor was like,

eat all that fucking swordfish, man.

At the same time, you've got Lizzie buying poison.

And a member of the family saying,

I think we're being poisoned.

This is a family that, now I completely agree with you.

It's, the temperature was in 90s.

During the time when they're eating rotting fish.

You know, Lizzie's 30 whatever.

Andrew is in his 60s.

This family's been eating rotting fish for years and years and years.

This is how they do it.

This is how they live.

This is what they do.

And I would argue that

while there's no question of my mind

that the hygienic practices of the Bordans

is generally horrific.

I think that we should give them a little leeway

in understanding the difference between

just regular, I'm eating rotting fish,

rumble tummy, and this is something else, right?

That's reasonable, no?

I get, yeah, sure.

Sure. I think that Abby understands

when she's had a little bit of the,

little bit of bad mountain.

Yeah.

And when she might be being poisoned,

that's fine.

But I think it's important to note about the,

the drugist at the pharmacy who claims that Lizzie was buying this.

He had never met Lizzie before.

She's a very striking woman, don't you think?

I don't know.

I wasn't around.

I mean, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it,

in fact, the like drugest, like himself,

or was it just a clerk?

Was it, was it, was it, was it, was it,

he was Eli Benz, the drugstore clerk,

he was ready to testify.

All right. So it wasn't, it wasn't a little,

it wasn't a little George,

running the stand at Sioux Falls and the guy accidentally,

it was the guy.

Okay.

He came forward a couple days after Lizzie was,

was arrested.

Or in the, in the aftermath of the killings and said this,

it wasn't like he came forward immediately.

It was after sitting on this for a couple days and being like,

I think that might have been Lizzie Borden.

Now, it's important.

So he didn't sell her the Prussic acid.

The police, this is a thing that I think goes under reported in this.

At the same time, the police were trying to conduct

little set up sting operations to see which pharmacies were selling

Prussic acid.

Or you could just go buy acid or poison in without a,

without a prescription.

And one of the detectives had apparently sent his wife to that drug store

to see if she could buy acid.

This is documented.

She was not sold it.

This could have very well been Lizzie.

Is this one of the cops that was like at six flags on the day or whatever?

I don't know who was there.

Shout out Rocky Point amusement park,

Legendary of Rhode Island, long defunct place.

I'm not saying that was Lizzie.

I'm not saying that wasn't Lizzie.

Okay.

I'm just saying that it's not 100% clear that that was definitely Lizzie.

And by the way, I don't disagree.

And by the way, Lizzie's lawyer, who by the way, we should note was the former

fucking governor of Massachusetts that she's, this was like,

picture like Johnny Carcman on steroids, right?

Like you just get the governor of Massachusetts two years ago to be your lawyer.

He kept it out of court.

Not based on the premise that that it was or wasn't her.

He kept it out basically saying the doesn't show intent.

It has nothing to do with this case.

And the judge bought that.

Can I just say that the judge, I think,

in the inquest panel itself,

I think is a player here in this sense.

They certainly had it rigged a little bit for Lizzie.

No, I mean, this was, they seem uncomfortable with the idea that a family of this stature

would be in this situation and that particularly a woman from a family of this stature

would be in this situation.

It seemed like not just that, but also like,

this doesn't happen in our quiet little hamlet here.

Well, this isn't us.

We don't do this.

It seemed to me, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but like,

Lizzie's multiple contradictory statements.

They threw that out.

Why?

Well, a couple of reasons.

She asked to have her lawyer present and she was denied having her lawyer present

because it was just, so what we're talking about now,

she never testified her own trial.

She testified at the inquest hearing, which was designed,

an inquest hearing, if you don't know what it is,

it's very like boring legal maneuver that basically,

you're not actually trying to press charges against someone.

You're just trying to figure out whether something criminal happened.

It happens before the grand jury.

When Lizzie stepped foot to testify that in inquest trial,

they actually had a warrant for her arrest already drawn up.

So she was going to be arrested no matter what happened.

And her testimony at the inquest trial was extremely contradictory.

There's one moment where she says that she was upstairs when the murder happened.

There's another that says she was in the kitchen reading Harper's magazine

eating pears.

Why is she eating so many fucking pears?

I don't know because they keep very, very well without refrigeration.

The fact that this family is just outside puking and then coming in to be like,

we need to eat more.

Need some fiber.

It's crazy.

The testimony was thrown out in part because she was not allowed to have her lawyer.

And if she was functionally already under arrest, then she was basically being denied due process.

Right?

She was denied her right to representation.

The second reason that it was thrown out is her lawyer successfully argued.

And this, I believe is very well documented that after the killings,

Lizzie's family doctor, the same one that Abby went to that day complaining about poison,

being possibly being poisoned.

The family doctor said,

prescribed Lizzie with morphine to calm her nerves because she was so upset after the killing.

Now, I've never taken morphine.

I have a feeling if I were on morphine, even if it were an inquest to maybe figure out whether I killed my father,

and stepfather, I don't know if I'd be able to keep my story straight.

Those are all good points.

I guess I would just say that it seems like the only details that she gets fucked up are the ones

that are there to keep her from being prosecuted for the murder.

That's one.

And secondarily, her lawyer, who is excellent.

George Robinson.

They certainly poke holes in the prosecution's case,

but they make almost no attempt to come up with an alternate theory.

Like none.

This part, like another suspect, it could have been this guy.

What about this?

They just kind of like let it lie.

I mean, shall we talk about the relationship between the, should we talk about motive?

Because it certainly seems like that's the thing we're never going to get to.

Yeah, let's talk motive.

Does Lizzie have a motive to commit these killings?

Motive one, money.

This is Andrew's second wife.

Seems as though the relationship was somewhat chilly.

And there are some suggestions that Mr. Borden was

lavishing his second wife with money and property and things.

She bought her family a house at one point.

In a way that perhaps Lizzie would have been unhappy with.

That's one theory.

Your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, that's documented.

So Lizzie had a bad relationship with the stepmother.

She stopped calling her mother at some point and

started calling her Mrs. Borden, which is insane.

Although mother is also a little weird, but maybe there's something in between.

If Emma, the sister, Lizzie's sister, had apparently like very brutal relationship with her.

And that's apparently tied up in some feelings about whether

Abby had tried to take on a maternal role with Lizzie,

which Emma felt very protective of that relationship.

I don't know the ins and outs, particularly because it's actually

only documented in the post trial.

Part of this.

But the thing that is very well documented is the girls were really pissed when Andrew bought

her family a house to the point where he had to make good immediately.

And he signed over a deed to their grandfather's house.

And like that was like, okay, like everything's okay.

So we know that the girls did not like Abby.

There is not a ton of evidence that they had anything against Andrew.

In fact, everything that came out in the trial seemed to suggest the opposite.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

So that's theory one is Lizzie acted alone and it was a cash situation.

Theory two that has been floated a couple times over the years, Lizzie had an epileptic seizure.

They call that menstrual hysteria.

A menstrual hysteria?

Which is not, I'm frankly shocked and embarrassed.

There's not a clip of me out there saying the phrase menstrual hysteria.

But I can't believe it's something that you stand for.

I can't believe it.

How dare you?

It's gross. I think that's gross of you.

Yeah.

But the theory is exactly what it sounds like and has been floated at the time

and at various points in the last 100 plus years that in a severe bout of

PMS, Lizzie flipped out and hatcheted her stepmother and her dad.

That's option two.

I think we can very easily push that one to the side.

I'm set three that has grown over the years and is interesting.

In response to some sort of abuse in the household,

possibly perpetrated by Andrew, Lizzie acted either in protection of herself or her sister.

The stepmother was killed because of her unwillingness to take

protectionist kind of role, her denial of what was happening and Andrew was killed,

obviously, as the perpetrator of these crimes.

Almost no evidence to suggest this.

That said, one has to take into account the fact that

these types of crimes now and then work historically completely under reported.

I think it's very reasonable to say the police department of Fall River at this time would feel

awkward about investigating a crime of that nature.

One of the only things that we know about Lizzie and Andrew's relationship is that

Lizzie once gave Andrew a ring and he wore that ring every day.

The only piece of jewelry he wore for the last 10-15 years of his life.

When she graduated, her ring, she bought it for him when she graduated high school.

There's, I've seen two different readings of that theory. One that

there is, that that shows the love between Lizzie and Andrew and another that this shows somewhat

of a abusive relationship. I should say that you are 100% correct that in 1892.

This wasn't a thing that was very well documented. In fact, if you fast forward 100 years and you

get to things like the Menendez Brothers case and the abuse that took place prior to the OJ Simpson

murders, we still weren't good about talking about that stuff. It took a while before we were even

able to grapple with those things in the context of these cases. That said, I think you know more about

this theory than I do. Yeah, I mean Freud, it's segment Freud when he was developing a theory for

why a lot of the female patients he was administering to at the time were in what was then called

like hysteria. He developed a theory based on like Copius interviews that, oh my god, I think there's

like a lot of incest, sexual abuse happening in homes. This evidence was found to be so shocking

from the society at the time that he had to go in and change it and develop this whole other

convoluted theory to say, okay, no, no, no, that was forget that. It's not that, it's this. So

all of which is to say, we don't know how much of that was happening at the time. We don't know

if it was happening in this house. We can say that if it was, everybody at the time would have

eagerly looked the other way. Would we say that's reasonable? Sure.

Okay, so that's another theory. Theory four and this one is made famous by the 2018 film Lizzy

with Chloe Sevenje is Lizzy and Christian Stewart as Bridget Sullivan is there was a

sapphic affair between Lizzy and Maggie that was witnessed by the stepmother and that that

was the reason for that murder and that the following murder of Andrew was just because

what are we going to do? We got to cover this up somehow and you know you can kind of look at

some of Maggie's later very lukewarm somewhat strange and distancing testimony about the case

during the case and after the case about her relationship to the sisters as potentially supporting

this. Although I don't find too much to this. I mean, first of all, this was this storyline was

made in a lab for Ryan Murphy to make monster around, right? And I'm partly through the series,

Apologies to anyone who's listening to this, having finished the series, they are leaning

very heavy on this theory. This has become very popular over the years. They basically they

has them plotting together not necessarily because they were discovered but because of the treatment.

Right. Right. There's Bridget as an accomplice because of I think pretty thin motives but

motives nonetheless. Like they called her Maggie because she was the that was the name of a

previous servant which is like honestly so fucking brutal. Yeah. Imagine you show for a new job

and say, Hey, my name is Jason and then you're like cool but Frank is a last guy so I call

on you Frank forever. So Bridget, you know, there's also a theory that she is, you know, the sole killer.

I discount that pretty much but because I think they would I think the police at the time would

eagerly pin it on her. I was immigrant. Yeah. In a second. However, so there are some reports

that Sullivan told a friend, these emerged late in later years, told a friend Mini Green

later in her life that she had quote, helped Lizzie out at the trial. Are you aware of these

events? I am. Then there's the deathbed confession. The deathbed confession. The hush money.

Yeah. Wait, there's a deathbed confession. It reported deathbed confession. Yes.

There's also another version that's maybe a little bit more accepted than the deathbed

confession, which is that Bridget Sullivan had no desire to talk about this fucking case.

She got her far away from fall, reverse. She could have seconded this was over. Next theory,

John V. Morse. Let's talk about some John V. Morse. I loved John V. Morse because as we mentioned,

John V. Morse has here's some testimony from the inquest. I went to the boarding house on Wednesday,

August 3rd. I arrived at the boarding house about half past one August 3rd. He then says,

I went to Swansea and returned to the house at 8.30 that evening. He even talks about like what

door he left the house by. He's like, I left via the back door. It was so detailed that even the

cops at the time were like, hey buddy, this is like a little like this is too much. Here, about 7am,

Abby Andrew and John Morse have breakfast. I left the house 15 or 20 minutes before 9 by the

rear door. So yes, now it seems like he wasn't in the house. His testimony, they were not able to

poke holes in it. And certainly if you'd committed these killings and wasn't the home,

one would imagine that Abby and Bridget Sullivan would say, hey, it was him. Your thoughts.

There's it should also it should also be noted that

John Morse was staying in the room where Abby's body was found and she was making John Morse's bed

when she was when the attacker came in. I want to read another quote from John Morse to you.

I'd love it. And this came a couple days after the acquittal of Lizzie. He gave an interview to a

newspaper and fall in New Bedford, which is right around the corner from Fall River. Okay, when

asked about his theory as to what can happen, instead of just shutting the fuck up, here he goes.

My idea is that he went into the house, meaning the killer. He went into the house for the purpose of

killing Mr. Borden. But not finding Mr. Borden in. He went upstairs in the front chamber to wait and

watch for him. While in there, I think Mrs. Borden came in after making the bed and he was forced to

kill her, forced to kill her. Sorry, I'm talking about my accent comes out when I'm talking about this

place. Mrs. Borden came in after making the bed and he was forced to kill her as to not be found out

with the hatchet about his person. That's a pretty specific version. If I did it, yes. And

something that we haven't discussed is the night before the killings. Lizzie goes to her best

friend's house, Alice Russell. And she says to Alice Russell, I think we're being poisoned.

I think it's the milk. So now we're just also introducing unpasturized milk into this ice

box less ass house. And she says, I think someone's going to kill my dad. I heard someone arguing

with him a couple of weeks ago, couldn't see his face. Now I see someone basically skulking

around outside the property. So Lizzie had said she had seen that whether that's just like a pre-alibi,

whether she's just getting her stories straight, I don't know. That is the unknown intruder theory.

If John Morris, we've we've talked about this change. Well, let's get into if John Morris,

I do a guy like him for it. I agree. But so let's go to the unknown intruder. You know, there was

the unnamed Portuguese laborer who they did look at. There is this mysterious testimony about

people skulking about. However, Fall River, small town in this crime took place in the middle of the

day. One would imagine you'd see a blood strain, blood stained stranger walking down the streets.

And nobody saw that. Nobody saw anybody. The witnesses who were watching the house did not see

anybody coming and going. Right. And also the very unique layout of the house.

I think to me suggests that it could not have been a stranger because one, they're not going to

hang out in there. And two, whoever did this knew exactly where to find the people. Yeah, it sounds

like an easy house to get kind of like lost in. Yeah. Or accidentally turned around and

in a closet and you don't know where to go. Next theory, the illegitimate son. Do you want to talk

about the illegitimate son? Willie? Yeah. William. What's his last name? William Borden. Yeah.

Is it William Borden? Is William Borden? Okay. He wrote a letter to the district attorney very early

on and said, I'm basically doing this because I'm Andrews illegitimate son. And he is cut off

Alimony and child support to me and my mom, the hush money that he was giving. So I came in and

did this and they never investigated. What the illegitimate son, you're saying the illegitimate son

wrote in? Yeah. And and and minute to it. Or that's the idea. Yes. But think about like after the

zodiac killing, how many people called up claiming there was a zodiac. Yeah. People do that in these

cases. Right. But in this case, they didn't look into it. Emma Borden, the sister now, Emma was not

at the house. But if we were doing like a who done it television show, it would be the perfect

kind of, you know, distraction to throw is like the one person who didn't that wasn't at

the house actually did it. But there's no absolutely no evidence for that. Do you have any thoughts

on Emma? You couldn't catch an uber carriage back and forth from fair hit. Nobody saw her. Right.

She was not at the house by everybody's testimony. Nobody saw her walking. But out of but if we're

talking motives against Abby, she had a much stronger one than than Lizzie. That's correct. You

want to talk about that? She just didn't like her. Yeah. She just she was it was like the relationship

between Lizzie and Abby was not great, but it was like outright hostile between Emma and Abby.

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So let's talk about who it could possibly be. Do you want to I'll give my theory and then

you'll give yours. Okay. I think it was I think it was some combination of Maggie,

Lizzie and John. Okay. In Cajut somehow. I don't know who is holding the hatchet but I think whoever

was they all have knowledge of it. Okay. And I think that simply because

the layout of the house, the 90 minute stretch, John's fucking crazy testimony and the fact that

there seemed to be significant animosity not to mention Lizzie's shifting testimony which may

or may not be morphine induced. And Maggie's later ambivalence, purported statements about knowing

things. I think it was the three of them in some form of cahoots committing this crime. And I

think very possibly Lizzie who potentially I blood stains on her dress. But did she?

I mean, there's competing statements about whether or not that happened.

She talked about the, because I thought it was interesting, there's the allegedly someone saw

her burning a dress in their oven. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. Well, she burned

a dress to the murders happen on a Thursday. On the Sunday, she burns a dress. And she burns

that dress. Like a blue corduroy dress. She handed the police after the murders of blue

corduroy dress that basically had no blood on except for one little spot, one little spot.

And keep in mind she was menstruating. Okay. So I'll never forget that.

Yeah. Saying the word menstruation more than I was anticipating today when I woke up.

She gave the police a blue dress and then burned another blue dress suspicious, incredibly

suspicious. What the story was on that, she had worn the dress while helping somebody who was

painting the house a few months earlier. And the house this dress was apparently ratty and covered

in paint. And now because she has to go into mourning and as the conventions of the time,

you need to buy all these like mourning clothes. You need to, you know, you basically need to show

that you've been pro, you're performing grief properly, especially if you're a woman.

She only had a limited amount of nails to hang clothes on. So she's going through her dresses.

And what Emma testified at I know this is starting to sound like a lot. Yeah. But Emma testified

a trial that she looked at the dress and said, when are you going to burn that thing? And Lizzie's

like, okay, I'll burn it. So it's, I don't know, it's. So, you know, I think when you put all

of this together, there are a lot of convenient either changes of story and other things that,

yes, they're a good, absolutely, they were, they're a good excuses here. But I think it's very,

very possible that she did it. And I think when I imagine the case and someone walking in on

the stepmother, I think if it's a guy, there's a screen or something that alerts the house.

No evidence of that. And I think if it's Abby, and there's no chance that the first swing that

that she's dead on the first swing is to the back of the head she never sees.

Yeah. They think that she was facing the killer for the first swing. Oh,

and I think if it's her stepdaughter, there's going to be very, very little alarm or concern.

Certainly, there doesn't seem to be any, there's no indication that she tried to defend herself

or do anything or was like, what are you doing here? And so I do think it's very, very plausible

when you added all up that it was Lizzie. However, so let's talk the Bill James timeline. Sure.

Bill James famous saver matrician baseball guy wrote a book in, I want to say 2010, 2011,

called Popular Crime, where he went through a bunch of famous true crime cases.

JFK. Yep. Limburg kidnapping. And some of the most famous cases in history and

tried and revisited them and tried to apply some saver metrics to them, which is really funny.

That's really fucking. I took, I took war and I applied it to the man's and murders.

When did money ball come out? I think a little bit before that. He's right in the way. He's right

the way. He's like, look, my, my, my almond act didn't take off this year. I need to write about

the, he heard Jonah Hills second Bill James and saver metrics cut right through that. And he

was like, now's the time. I need to, I need to have another book out there tomorrow. So good.

He lays out in the Lizzie board and chapter. And this is where a lot of my feelings about the

case come from, but we have to accept the timeline that he lays out as the thing. So

Andrew boarding comes home at 1045, they say, and they bridge it and Lizzie both testified to

that like very, they were locked in on that. They said 1045. Lizzie, right. Potentially the murder

or testifies to the time. Yeah, but, but, but, but, but Bridget said a lot of other things that might

have incriminated. Sure. Lizzie. So 1045. By 11 a.m. Lizzie is calling out that her dad had been killed.

And she's goes outside and runs into a neighbor and they call over Alice Russell and by 1130,

the police are in the house. So at the very least, either it's a, so Andrew comes home at 1045.

He's apparently lying down before 11 a sleep from on his side. He looks, he does look very peaceful

in the crime scene photos, which you can see. I mean, the dude had been puking up mutton and

swordfish for three days. He was, he was dying. He was eating enough of the pairs.

No, we've got to have more pairs. Um, if we are to accept this timeline, this leaves about 10

minutes in which Lizzie could have gone into the sitting room, hit her dad with a hatchet 10 to 11 times,

gone to the spigot in the basement or the barn, but potentially the basement.

Cleaned herself up, cleaned all the guts, all the blood, changed her clothes,

gotten rid of the dress, bloody clothes reportedly in the bucket downstairs.

I want to talk about that too, because that's a very funny, like that's a very funny guys

investigating girls sort of thing. Yeah. Um, well, you can talk about it right now, Tyler.

Is the idea was what menstrual rags? Yes, and the ideas that they see bloody rags in the basement

and Lizzie's just like, oh, yeah, I'm so sorry, I haven't been straighting in the cops.

We're like, whoa, okay, cool. Let's move on. They don't even, they're too uncomfortable to even,

it's great. Deal with the idea. And so they just move on without ever looking into it.

So my feeling is that, and I accepted Bill James' timeline. I do, because, I mean,

Bill James, see, help the red socks.

Hey, man, raise cover up a lot. I get it. So I just, I find it impossible

to think that Lizzie could have swung this hatch, it cleaned herself up, composed herself, come back in.

What I have come around to believe over the years is that some combo of John and Lizzie plotting

with maybe an associate of Johns who knew John could say hide out here. You're not going to be seen here.

He's going to come home around this or like, you know, whatever the case is,

that might have, that might have been the thing. Those three, maybe Bridget didn't know, maybe Bridget,

who was by the way, outside cleaning windows and puke when this happened. Outside cleaning the window that

Abby, the room that Abby is killed in. Yeah. And by the way, my theory on Maggie is simply,

hey, don't fucking say anything. You work for us. You shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. Do you want

to keep having a job, et cetera? You know, I think it's very easy to keep her quiet. Last thing I'm

going to say about this theory that I don't think Lizzie swung the hatch at, but probably knew who did.

The district attorney, right before the trial started, wrote a letter to the attorney general.

And the district attorney was basically like, we're not going to get it. Just one for

period, we're not going to get a conviction here, but we have to proceed with this trial because

we've just gone too far, just like extreme sunk cost. And then in this letter, it includes the

situation is this, nothing has to have developed, which satisfies either of us that she is innocent.

Neither of us can escape the conclusion that she must have had some knowledge of the occurrence.

What the district attorney is saying in layman's terms is simply, I don't think she swung the hatch

at, but she knows damn well who did. Robert Sullivan wrote a book called Goodby Lizzie Borden from

1974, which I don't know if you read, but I do think that, listen, the timeline is interesting,

but to me, we're talking about 1892. We're talking about a period in which clocks

are not synced and can differ wildly by double digit minutes often. The people's recollection of

time passing is very elastic, talking about stressful moments in the wake of a murder, a discovered

murder, a one-person committed. And so to me, it's like trying to like, to the minute time out,

what happened? It's poppycock to me. This is, like, unless you have a modern day type time code

running underneath these events, I just think it's impossible to trust this timeline as reported

by anybody involved. For Bill James. And by the way, I'm basically agreeing with what you're saying.

So Sullivan also noted that the opportunity was exclusive. The house was locked from the inside.

Lizzie and Bridget, the main where the only people home, Abby killed around 930, Andrew around 11,

someone hiding in a house for 90 minutes is ridiculous to me. Whoever killed it killed these people

was known to the other people who were there. Is there a John Morse motive?

That we like is that I cash money. I got I got a quote from him. Okay. Now they say that Lizzie

Borden did that and I planned it all out with her. If I had been planning it, is it likely that I

planned it that way? Wouldn't it just been easier to have smothered them with chloroform and the

night and then the morning said they committed suicide? Look, what's the motive? John, I don't

know. The motive is just that John Morse is out here just basically there. Like if I did it, if I

did it, we should also mention that like John Morse on coming home from his various errands that he

runs throughout the day. No oxen, by the way. No one ever saw the object. Just walking around. I

went into the backyard to a pear tree, picked up two or three pairs and ate part of one of them.

That's John Morse upon coming home. He does not walk in right away to find any of the bloody

remains of his relatives. That's like real eye at your palms. What you were delicious. Sort of writing

there. So I'm kind of with you. So let me continue though with with Sullivan's notes. Lizzie does lie

a lot. Gives shifting contradictory accounts of where she was when her father dies. She's on the

stairs. She's upstairs. She's downstairs. She's out in the barn. Eating pears, looking for sinkers,

ironing handkerchiefs. And her claim that Abby left the house after receiving a note was never

corroborated. We didn't get into the note. Should we talk tell us about the note? All right.

On when Andrew came home, the first, the only thing that's confirmed that Lizzie said to him,

he said, where's Abby? And said Abby received a note that morning saying that somebody was sick

and that she had to go out. And it's never been confirmed. First of all, it's never been confirmed

whether there was a note. Second of all, there's no, there's no specifics in the story. Not who was sick.

What time she left, whether she actually saw her left, she just assumed she left. It's just this

weird thing where Lizzie tells the story about Abby receiving this note. But then Abby is upstairs

making the bed and murdered within like an hour of allegedly receiving the note. Honestly,

more than the dress, more than the bloody pale of the rags, more than like where she was in the

house. Any of this stuff, the note is the fucked up thing. The note is the fucked up thing. So it

seems that here's the we can say this. Her story changes a lot. Behavior after she burns a dress,

stays after a brutal double murder was committed in her home. I'm sorry, but that's a

fucking weird thing to do. Regardless of whether someone was like, why don't you burn that

you know, like how about don't be seen getting rid of evidence in the wake of a double murder that

you are a suspect? Well, and I don't, I mean, I don't know how people are living back then. But if I

hear like, oh, yeah, you should get rid of that dress. I'm like, oh, I'll just throw it away.

She said there was, she said it was rady and there was paint on it. And then of course, there is

the testimony of the clerk who said she was trying to buy plastic acid. And then there's a motive,

the various, you know, resentment, et cetera. That said, it's not, it's certainly not definitive.

Any of that. It's all of end points at all. I was gonna say you can't, you couldn't have thrown

away address in those days because the whole, they're rounding up any day labor in the public

sanitation department. So you need to point your own trash. They're just rounding them up for any

various crime. Now Sullivan comes to this conclusion as to why Lizzie was acquitted. The read is social.

Lizzie was a 32 year old Sunday school teacher from one of the most prominent families in the community.

Massachusetts hadn't executed a woman. I think since the 1700s, they're the which trial?

Yeah. And his argument is that the court simply couldn't stomach hanging someone like her,

which would have had to be done if they had found her guilty. And so class and gender and

chivalry, I'll dress up in this. And that's why they found the ways they did your thoughts.

I mean, the jury didn't have to deliberate very hard on this. 90, 90 minutes. And there's also a

rumor that they decided within 30 and then just gave it. Yeah, they're like, we gotta stress.

It's really funny. We like, god, look, okay, we got it. It's going to look bad if we go out there

right now. Yeah. So whatever the case was, the jury did not think there was even enough evidence

to like even seriously deliberate this. And I think that the reality is we're never going to know

who committed these for real because there's, I mean, no forensics, no, nothing that could

actually definitively prove this. The timeline is screwing off. The house is strange enough.

There's all these characters coming in and out. There's people kind of have motives. They don't

have motives. But there's, it's become impossible for me to believe that Lizzie didn't at least know

what was going for sure. And I don't know. I like that. This story is basically the OJ of its day.

You know, you have murder among the wealthy and elite. You have a double murder. You have a

murder weapon that's never found. We didn't get into that. But murder weapons never found.

Obviously, like close family members. The story even has a Cato Caylan. You know, John Morse is

kind of a Cato just showing up out of nowhere and being like, huh? But

pears and white eyes. Yeah, Cato notorious for parading. But I think that's like why we maintain

some fascination with it. I agree. So Bill James, he wrote this book and some of it is pretty smart.

But I just, it's a little too clever by half. It's, the book is very entertaining. But I have several

issues with his takes on the cases contained therein. And obviously, Lizzie Borden is one of them where

you're just, you're just like putting a much to modern conception of time onto the late,

you know, 19th century. And then the second one is his reading of the John Bane case, which I just

want to quickly know. So Bill James is prone in of the intrudatory that somebody broke into

John and Patsy Ramses home and killed their daughter, John Bane hung out for like an hour plus

wrote a three page ransom note and left. And he, and this is like his kind of like central technique

in this book, which again, I would say is very, it's worth your time. Sure. It's basically that

the words used in the note and also the, um, suggest someone other than Patty.

And that the handwriting does not match either parent. And that, again, the textual analysis

would suggest, namely the sentence that John was quote, the only fat cat around, which he

interpreted as evidence that the murder imagined themselves as like a criminal mastermind,

who might use John Bane's death to like establish credibility in some future extortion scheme.

And concluded from this language that the child was must have been still alive when the

note was written. Um, I would say two things. One, handwriting analysis is like not a fucking

sign, especially at this point. Like it, like I, at no point, the history of handwriting analysis

up to the current day, can you say that handwriting analysis is a science? Yes.

One, in one case you can. And that's the Robert Durs, jinx case.

Right. In the Robert Durs case, yes. But in the, let's say this in the vast majority of cases, no.

Um, and the textual analysis part, playing with this, the, um, the term fat cat,

as not being part of the Ramsey's lexicon and suggesting that the person who wrote the note had

the child alive at the time and intended to use them as extortion scheme is just like frankly,

like an incredible stretch. And I think about it the same way I think about the Lizzie Borden case,

which although we can't, in the same way that we can't say who held the hatchet and we can't

say who killed John Bene, what we can say is whoever did was comfortable enough to hang out in

the house for a long period of time. Yeah. Like comfortable and, you know, people have noted that the,

ransom amount in the note is very similar to a bonus that, um, uh, you know, the elder of the

father had just gotten from his job, whatever, forget that. It's just crazy to think that someone

would break into a home, kill a child, maybe at the time, like, or certainly abuse a child. And then

while people slumber in the home, hang out, look for a legal pad, look for something to write on,

right? Look for something to, to write with and then hang out there and be like, okay, three pages

of fucking lot. That's a lot of writing on a legal pad. That's a lot. As a writer. That's like,

you're thinking, okay, what do I say? You got, you got to have, uh, you, you got to have an intro.

You have an outline. Yeah. Right. You got, you need like a good walkoff line. I'm immediately

going like, are we front and back to it? Like, and so it just is crazy to me that that would be an

intro to forget any other theory or whether it be Patsy or like, or whoever else or John,

whoever did that is familiar with that house and was comfortable there because you don't do that

as a stranger period. No. And so that's what I'll just say about Bill James, who I think

has this propensity for focusing in like, almost to a comically detailed degree on some small

piece of evidence and being much like his sabermetrics work going, aha, that is the entire

story of this and that works in baseball too. Look, it's easier to find Dustin Pagoria.

Yeah. There it is.

Okay. Our next house of horrors, the Horsh Horror House. And this is a case that people may be

following currently. On June 19th of this year, um, US Park Police approached a improperly parked

BMW near sixth and market, um, in Philly. And they discovered Eugene Horsh, 44, who presented them

with a fake DA badge and a false name. The officers then recovered two handguns with without serial numbers,

cocaine, fentanyl, marijuana, a collapsible baton, which I believe is illegal in Pennsylvania,

switchblade knives, and the passenger in the car with Mr. Eugene Horsh was a woman who gave the name

of a missing woman who had ID, an ID of a missing woman who had disappeared from Kensington PA

in February of 2023. They then go to the home where eventually two months later, it is revealed that

the police found some 600,000 images, 70,000 videos, 10,000 pages of writing. The first two,

pieces of media were found on various, like, drives. That amount to the emission in the writings of

various horrific crimes. And then the videos show the deaths of at least two people who have

disappeared from the area. And currently, the house is linked with the disappearances of

some dozen, uh, women perhaps. And these crimes appear to be, have been perpetrated by

Mr. Horsh's father, Raymond RC Horsh, or in 1943, currently passed, but who,

by his own description, was an erotic filmmaker and photographer who also described himself as

an empathetic serial killer, who murdered people who were suffering from addiction,

and were basically down on their luck. And this was taken at the time to be like works of

legend and kind of like weird fiction. He was seen as like a GGL in kind of punk rock performative

type of figure, but now it certainly appears that this is real. And again, police have recovered

videos that appear to show him murdering more than one person in horrific fashion. He died three days

before the raid that discovered all this stuff. Is that right? Days before. I thought it was about a

year. A day before. So the thing is the police had been here previously. Okay. They had rated the

home on different charges. And he had passed away. I believe days before that got it. And I'll say this

for me, a theme of every mysterious magnetic case, be it a serial killer case or a mass murder case

or unsolved killing that has the ability to grab our imagination, whether it's happening now

or happened a hundred years ago. The unifying theme is always this. Cops fucked up. Yeah.

That's Lizzy Borden where the A team is out. The griding. You gotta go ride the Batman.

Riding the screen machine. And you know, eating cotton candy or OJ or this case, the Horsesht

Purrhouse case where the cops were in the fucking house a year ago and found out apparently nothing

untoward. That is always there. Yeah. Cops fucking up. And it clearly appears to be the case in

this. The case is developing. But what we know currently is absolutely horrific. And how they

missed this guy Raymond Horses or see who in multiple formats. Video photography and his own

writing confess to copious crimes. This is also like if you get a picture, if they post a

picture of the guy, this is the most serial killer looking guy. That's his book empathy.

And this again is about how he that's him shortly before he died with an eye patch. Yes.

That's him in the 90s. That's him in the 90s. And again, that empathy is about how he would pick up

kind of people who were down on their luck off the streets, sex workers, addicts, etc. And he

would kill them. He'd been living in the house since 2004 when he acquired it after the death of

a relative, which I think we should also look into now. He used power of attorney in 2007 to transfer

the deed to his son for one dollar. In 2009, the police responded to a woman's 911 call at the

home to a different home. Excuse me and found a marijuana grow operation firearms and multiple

women's identifications. RC not arrested at that time. Over the years ensuing years, multiple people

disappeared from the Philadelphia area who have since become connected to the home. And in May

of 2025, this is three days after Raymond Horses died at 82. The police rated the home,

executing a search warrant. I guess about drugs and they recovered 26 pounds of marijuana,

131 grams of mushrooms, $1200 worth of meth, $800 in cash, numerous gold colored and silver coins

in a safe, 100 rounds of ammunition, a multi-floor grow operation, three firearms with no serial numbers,

and more. And yet Eugene was out on the streets a year later and RC never faced any kind of

serious charges. Jason, we've been doing this show since February. Yeah. This is the most

fucked up case. It's truly horrific. It's easily the most fucked up. It's I have become obsessed

with this case. And we should we should say that Eugene is sitting in prison on weapons charges.

Uncharged at this time has not been charged. The police have said that there is a videotape,

which appears to let's just call it what it sounds what it seems to be, which is a snuff film.

That purports to show Ray. He's strangling a woman with his style. And then there's two camera

angles and one he's allegedly holding it. And the other there's allegedly someone shooting it.

Don't know who that person is. We'll not speculate. This case is crazy because first of all, you know,

what's the what's the thing they always tell you movies and things that they they always say

that snuff films now that doesn't really happen that doesn't really happen. And obviously like

that has it doesn't I will say that like many sides have been done on this. It doesn't happen in

the way it is depicted in in movies eight millimeter hardcore hardcore. It doesn't happen like that

where it's put out on the market somehow. Right. Movie red rooms. If anybody hasn't seen

red rooms is another is an excellent movie that that gets into how made this stuff may or may not

be the same. However, there are multiple incidents, documented incidents of people videotaping

murders. That happens. The other thing that's crazy to me about this. So we wrote the book, empathy,

confessions of an empathetic serial killer. I think I'm puttering the title a little bit,

which is just so crazy. And like we should say that it's not like he's like I kidnapped this

woman on this day and did this. I applied this woman with drugs. He's basically the emperor

phrasing, but there's a quote that's like, you know, I'm an artist. I'm a photographer. I'm a

photographer. I'm, you know, I'm whatever. And then I'm a serial killer too. I'm a violent

sociopath. And it's like, okay, edge lord. Right. Right. But your performance artist is what he

seems like. But you read that and like, you're like, okay, shut the fuck up. But then I was like,

holy shit, that's real. The other thing is, and I texted to you this the other day.

His works featured in at least one book from Rizoli, which is a, it's like Toshin,

which is just a very high-end book publisher. Like this was not just some nobody. This guy

had been considered to be someone within the erotic photography space. Right. So he was of some acclaim.

And he was just allegedly doing this for unknown amount of years. The cases they're investigating go

back about a decade. Yeah, they go about quite a while. So this is just insane to me. This case

is insane to me. It is absolutely nuts that he was never charged with anything. Despite the fact

that he was found with guns, drugs, etc. multiple times. I mean, there's a quote from the former

new Britain township police chief in 2009 that says, Horsh quote worked at being evil. That was his

nature. And yet we never brought him in. So currently, as of this recording, seven missing

women have been definitively linked to the Horsh house of which five of the seven are feared to be

are presumed to be dead based on images recovered from the property images and video. Investigators

have since identified 58 women appearing in this enormous trove of material. That doesn't mean all

of them are missing, but we should imagine a significant portion of those are unidentified and

an account for right now. And authorities are certainly working to identify all those people.

And no one has been charged yet because there's no bodies.

No bodies. Despite the fact that we have this video evidence of multiple murder scene in place,

we don't know where the bodies are. There were like 50 gallon drums on the property. They've

looked through those. They've looked through. They're digging up the grounds currently. But right now,

it appears that we have no, they have no corpses attached to these cases. Correct.

There are no corpses that I'm aware of. I have, I heard on a podcast I was listening to over the weekend

that they found urns, but they weren't able to determine what was actually in the urns.

It also seems like RC had a connection to if you're not home somehow.

This was reported this morning that in the Philadelphia inquire that he had access to a quote,

creamatorium. Shit. Fuck. So this is going to be, this is going to be really horrific as it emerges.

And again, these things, the details are currently emerging. But this is definitely one of those

where you can say definitively, man, the cops fucked up. This is one they absolutely, how do you not

catch this guy or realize that this is, how do you not free, what about like he's been dead three days?

How do you not figure out that this is going on in this house that you then

sees thousands of dollars worth of meth, multiple pounds of marijuana, mushrooms, etc.

That's a drug right in the belt. They don't have anything, any idea of the killings when they do

the drug right is craze. Now Eugene did say through his lawyer that the weapons and other stuff

found in the time, well, that was my dad's stuff. And he had just died in his not mine. He was

arrested resulting, you know, from the charges stemming from that. But again, he was just like out and

about. What happens if this woman doesn't give the wrong ID? Do we, do we probably walk away?

They walk away. He maybe gets a weapon charge, but like we never hear about any of this.

It is very, very troubling. And I will guarantee you we're going to find out that the cops

interviewed talk to either the father or the son many more times than the times that we know about

here. Right now, there are three documented like contacts with them that predate June,

2026. Here is a RC horse on the Vriyato report in 2013. Oh, yeah, I was listening to a little of this.

I of course was kind of a natural as a perverted serial killer. He continues. I tend to play the part

or play up the part of the villain asked why he described himself as a sociopath. He said,

it goes back as long as I can remember. I do not look society. I do not like civilization.

Again, pretty crazy. We couldn't catch this. You couldn't catch this guy. Guys, what's going on?

By the way, Vriyato report doing a little bit of damage control this week. I would imagine that.

I mean, to your point, like weirdly in a claimed figure at the time, RC horse, really

disturbing. We will continue to keep track of this because the details continue to emerge.

This has only been going on a few months now. But we expect there's going to be more horrific

reveals going forward. And hopefully, at some point in inquest about how the local PD managed to

miss this. Yeah. Four years. Four years. Let's go to the Doomschool. All right. There's this weird

murder trial that's going out and going going on in Florida right now. There's a plastic

surgeon charged with first degree murder who has chosen to represent himself. It's not.

It's not. Prosecutor say, Dr. Thomas Kuzowski killed Florida attorney Steven Kazi back in March 2023.

This is after years of bitter conflict. Yes. Kazi was a lawyer representing someone who had a suit

against Kuzowski and Kazowski apparently developed a tremendous animosity against the man.

Kazi vanishes from his law office restroom. The same morning that him and Kazowski are due

at a hearing together. Kazi's boss finds a just blood spattered inside the restroom.

Investigators say surveillance shows a man matching Kazowski's description,

wheeling a covered cart out of the building and loading it into a pickup truck. They later found

Kazi's DNA inside that truck and on Kazowski's garage floor plus cash passports, a ballistic

vest and a bag prosecutors have nicknamed quote the murder bag, which is containing a paralytic

drug of some kind. You can see we can show the picture. My guy Fox mask there as well.

Always a classic. Yeah. Kazi's body's never been found. Yes. Prosecutors think it was hauled off

in a garbage truck and is under just thousands of tons of trash somewhere in Florida. Yes.

Kazowski in court is entertaining. So I'll say this. First of all, he waived his right to a jury

trial. So this is a bench trial that judge will decide his guilt or innocence. He's representing

himself. And you know, I'll state my opinion. I think this guy's pretty guilty. Yes.

That said, he's not doing terrible at representing himself. Let's play a couple clips of Dr.

Kazowski representing himself. And I will say absolutely diabolical work by the state to not give

this man a comb or some stuff because he I don't think there's anything ever been drier as this man's

lips. So here's a clip in which so it is alleged that Dr. Kazowski drove to a secluded dumpster

and dropped the body off there and then continued on his way. And the authorities are alleging

this due to his cell phone peeing off of various towers. And the towers are a certain distance apart

and it is alleged from this that Dr. Kazowski stopped for a period of time to throw the body

in the dumpster. And this is Dr. Kazowski refuting that testimony.

From the intersection of Blue Brode, it's a few miles. A few miles? Yes. Two.

One can speculate that I don't have that mapped out, but I know it's a small amount of distance

of a few miles. So let's hypothetically let's say it's two miles. All right. So in two minutes,

I went two miles. That would mean I'm traveling 60 miles an hour. Correct? Well that's a high

but medical part is I don't know how fast you're driving that night. Oh, I put that at the end.

I'm two miles away and it takes me two minutes to get there. I'm driving 60 miles an hour.

That's what you say yes. You can't do the math? I do the math as far as speeds. I just

use the data points to help capture that for the license plate reader. It's such an incredible

dumb guy, man. It's good. It's really good. I mean he is it's funny because you read the comments

on the videos that are on social media. It's like wow, this guy is fucking smart. This guy is

really smart. And I'm like he clearly believes that he is smart. You can see how smart he believes he is.

But you know, this is like not this is first of all like a high school test question version of

like and and a rebuttal. And second of all like you know driving a car you can speed up. You

can slow down. It would make you maybe the average would be 60 miles an hour. Right. But you could

go you go 80. Yeah. And then slow down to 50. It the this guy over I mean he there's another point

where he's like arguing about DNA where he feels like he really has one up on the guy because

they didn't find his DNA in the bathroom. It's like dude we have it in your garage. There's

nothing like. There's a physical evidence is like really overwhelming. That said

this guy did it. Yes. Allegedly. And I just think he's his regard for himself. It's not

it actually makes it more believable that he could become fixated on a lawyer. Yes.

Litigating against him to the point that he then decides to kill this guy. Yes. Because

you're just looking his eyes and you're and the way he does these questions and you're like I could see

it. I I've known several people who have gone into the law business. Yeah. She's simply because

they've dealt with lawyers and been like I can fucking do that shit. And this guy just possibly

allegedly took it to the extreme dealt with this lawyer for all this time is like I'll fuck this.

God is a note. Fuck he's doing. I would love to see this start a movement among other you know

defendants where they start up for crimes that they start representing themselves. I love that

he tried to do his own OJ where it's like if it if the bag does not fit you must quit. You mentioned

something about capacity. How tall are you Mr. Bond or I don't know what you're suggesting.

General Fugel asked to answer that question. You have a legal issue you'd like to bring up. Well I mean

capacity they're obviously hinting that you'd probably hide a body in there right so I mean can

you step into the trash bag for us. Okay well the answer was no that she doesn't know what the

capacity is so so we move on after that. Okay. All right so he may have been hinting at something but

he didn't get an answer as to what the capacity is so maybe we'll do that later. Okay.

Get in the bag buddy if you are about to say he might not wait as we suppose victim then that

trash bag should hold your body no. There's the moment after he's like after he says I'll tell

you and you can you can in the pause you can almost see the faces of the other lawyer and the

judge being like what the fuck are you talking about what's the set what's the set. What's the

thing. And again I just love it with every in every clip that you can watch with this and I've

watched so many it's it is a little addicting. He's like guy are we doing a lot yes because his

lips are cracked like the Grand Canyon which is I mean give this guy give him a chance give him a

comb and a a a a chapstick because he's 100% going away and it's just I can't watch this without

thinking about how dry this guy is. He the real lizard tongue going on. Yes. Yeah. What's next.

All right. A.I. almost brought us to war with China sounds like. So I was told seeing in this

in the middle of the run US intelligence circulated an urgent report claiming a shiny ship

in the Middle East was carrying components for a nuclear weapons program.

Military here's this obviously most very fast arm personnel prepare to board the vessel.

Military planes go in the air just before the operation launches officials discovered the report

was built using an AI chatbot. The bot had misidentified the ship's cargo

in the completely it got it wrong every which way. One source called the report quote entirely false.

Adding that it quote almost started a war. Analyst behind the report used the chatbot to analyze

classified and open source intelligence then used AI again to write up the findings into a

formal military report. The commanders trusted this enacted on it. I can see like the

cloud did you just almost start world war three you're absolutely right and it's worth me telling

you why I almost started world war three. I'm very concerned. Okay. What's next. All right. The US

has accused Russian intelligence operatives of plotting to assassinate a Kremlin critic. This is a

dude that's been living in Washington DC. Federal prosecutors on seal charges last week against five

guys they say worked for Russia's intelligence services. They're accusing them of recruiting

paying people around the world to surveil and kill Russian dissidents all five of these

dudes remain at large. The name defendants include former Russian intelligence colonel

known as Colonel Yuri who I think is the guy that took over Air Force one for a little bit when

Harrison Ford was the president. Colonel Yuri's son who's an officer with Russia's FSB plus

several Cuban nationals prosecutors say help coordinate the network's operations. According to

the indictment these operatives directed a US based Venezuelan citizen to secretly film two

DC area locations tied to this target then they offered him 40K to carry out the killing. He does

the surveillance doesn't pull the trigger doesn't want to be involved in that. Apparently the you

know that these the network of these five guys plus whoever they're trying to recruit and pay

for all this surveillance they are using coded language referring to the assassination as quote

construction. Apparently they had people in Mexico on backup in case some of this stuff didn't go

the way they wanted it to. This is in line with various other plots that have been reported on

particularly in Europe that involve Russia hiring people off of like telegram to commit either acts

of terrorism or to commit murders. So it's pretty troubling that it's happening here in the US if

we must I mean you have to note that this is cash per tell's FBI and so we do hope that this is

accurate information. 1000% there right now I think cash is looking into fucking dogs if we're

to believe any of the you know. So good luck and we hope we hope that that's good good information

there. I also want to say you get what you pay for. You're off me 40K to assassinate some did bump

the numbers up. You're not doing that. You're in you're the entire country of Russia. Nine

time zones 40K. Come on. Shake loose the pockets of one of these oligarchs that I always hear about

and like let's come to the door of a something serious. 40K is like I'm working at Starbucks type

shit. Yeah come on. Which pump it up pump it up. And by the way an honorable way to make some money

by the way in this economy and any other recognize their union. Um all right there's some stuff

going on with King Todd. He's back in the news. He's back baby. Um all these years later and King

Todd still with the power to fascinate us. He really long long gestation period for King

Todd. The a team of scientists believes to in common's tomb in Egypt's value of the kings

contains hidden chambers. I love this. Those chambers might hold the body of Queen

Nefertiti. Okay. This theory dates back to 2015 when British Egyptologist Nicholas Rie is

proposed that Tutts tomb was originally built for a different ruler. Experts had long noted

the burial chambers seemed sort of weirdly small for a king. It was every if you see the original

photos from when the explorers opened the tomb for the first time thus cursing them throughout

all time forever and ever. Everything is very cramped in there. The stuff piled up. It looks

like a storage room at anybody's house. Apparently when they first showed the images of what this

tomb might look like experts at the time were like that looks like a tomb for the Queen. Yeah.

Not for him. Apparently scientists have now conducted seven major investigations using radar,

thermal imaging, other kind of scanning technologies. They say they've identified what appears to

be a multi-room complex stretching up to 98 feet beyond the tomb's north wall. Maybe five or six

chambers connected by passageways that were deliberately filled with rubble thousands of years ago.

This is incredible. Yeah. Now it does seem like the Nefertiti thing is like an immense reach.

They're just kind of like hoping that that could be the case. It does seem like they're latching on

to kind of the hot the hot names. I think that that is like that and this is just me like framing

this. I think that is an attempt to like get some funding for further work. Yeah. Yeah.

It could be Nefertiti guys a big deal. And maybe even like permission because what I mean

that what they're going to ask to do is to drill a hole and send a camera inside. And I'm not sure

how Egypt's going to feel about that. So Nefertiti is Tutankhamans is believed to be Tutankhamans'

mother-in-law. So there's some basis in it, but I mean this is fascinating. This is good stuff.

Apparently they've applied for permission to drill this hole. And they're really hoping to take

that first look later this year. Best of luck to them. Well listen the King Tut not going anywhere.

You'll be around. The tube will be over there. So keep an eye on that. Thank you Tyler. Thanks buddy.

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