‘East of Eden’ Series Premiere, ‘Slow Horses’ S6E3, and Cindy Holland Leaves Paramount. Plus, Best TV of the Century Honorable Mentions.

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I need support to have to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now!

Hello and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at TheRinger.com and joining me on the other line.

He's about to be very happy or very mad because of the Atlanta Braves.

It's an angry world!

Why are you hanging out to dry like that?

Your emotional life is also in the balance here.

No, it's not just me.

I just keep having podcasts during this Phillies Braves series,

so all I get is highlights or low lights.

I must say there was something quite peaceful.

Obviously, we should talk about what we're going to talk about today.

But there was something quite peaceful about the rhythm of my last few autumn's in which work or travel has denied me the opportunity to have my intestines ripped out to my face.

Sure.

So the fact that actually tonight we're recording on Thursday is lining up so I can watch the game worries me.

It's going to be a fun text message thread from you.

Andy, today on the podcast, we're going to talk a little bit about the reshuffle over at the, I guess, newly formed Warner Mount.

Parabothers where we've had some TV executive news that do that does pertain to a lot of what we want to talk about on this pod.

Also wanted to hit two new shows that are premiering this week war on HBO and used to be none Netflix.

We both have some some book reports some show and tell for that.

And then we were going to talk about the third episode of slow horses as well as some shows that we wanted to shine a light on that did not make the New York Times top 100 list,

which we've been talking about over the last couple of episodes, which has been really quite interesting to see all the conversation about it.

Andy and I went on Wesley Morris's podcast cannonball and you could check us out on that show talking about the list.

And we've discussed that I talked about it with Joe a little bit.

Great to see you, man.

You're working in New York.

So thank you for making time to talk about the thing that brings us together.

And that's people moving up and down the corporate ladder.

It really gets me up in the morning and down at night.

Yeah.

Here is the headline from deadline or rather the sort of lead paragraph from deadline.com.

Cindy Holland is leaving Paramount Skydance where she was chair of direct to consumer.

Having previously served as an advisor of Skydance CEO David Ellison today, I think which was two days ago, is her last day.

The move, which has been rumored for the past week, leaves Casey Blois, chairman and CEO of HBO and HBO Max content as the presumed streaming head of the combined Paramount WBD.

Holland hinted at this in her email to staff indicating that Ellison had shared with her his plan for the leadership of the combined HBO Max and Paramount streamer.

And it involved him, quote, optimizing for HBO stability, aka going with Casey Blois, something Holland supported, she said in her email to the staff.

Obviously, Cindy Holland only at Paramount for about a year, a little bit more than a year.

We talked about her as a figure in this industry a couple of times over the year, especially when she got hired.

She was instrumental in building out Netflix's original TV programming.

Had her hands on stranger things on House of Cards, etc.

And was brought over to Paramount, I think to diversify their programming or to deleverage them from a world where Taylor Sheridan had five, six, seven shows on the air because Taylor Sheridan is leaving and going to Universal, whether or not that was tied to Cindy Holland's leadership, I don't know.

But now we have this major change and we have a much clearer picture of what the future of the kind of TV we talk about is going to look like here.

What was your first reaction when you saw this?

My first reaction was it feels good when you can make people's dreams come true.

And I have an Good Authority that Casey's number one dream in this massive promotion was leading the A block on the Watches Thursday podcast.

So the Make a Wish foundation strikes again.

And I'm sure this is going to stay as the best thing that happened to him this week. That makes me glad.

I love the idea that we're like Walter Cronkite and people are like, what's Walter going to talk about in the opening segment?

So like, no, my God, do you think David Ellison is like, if we lost the watch, we've lost the war.

Sure, that's the war he's worried about.

That's the biggest war facing him.

So there's a bunch of different ways into this.

And one of the first ways is it's definitely not any reason to celebrate when someone loses their job, particularly because I think that Cindy Hollins hiring by Ellison was interesting.

And it's interesting because for as much as we want to or maybe we tend to look at these massive mergers through very reductive binary lenses, there is more nuance here.

And I'm not just saying this because we would like to work for Paramount someday. That is not part of it.

It is literally that for every Barry Weiss that David Ellison has hired, he hires a Cindy Holland.

And Cindy Holland came to Paramount and almost immediately, quote unquote, un-Ellison did in the sense of if we think that everything that this guy and his father,

have done has been sort of red-pilled, like decoupling from Taylor Sheridan, who really is more of a libertarian?

I listen to you in Van and I have some new insight into the validity of private jet travel.

Yeah.

Mixed.

My point is when this news broke, like in the room that I'm working in, someone said, oh no, Paramount just started caring about women.

Like genuinely, she was beginning to program Paramount and we haven't seen really her fingerprints on the schedule yet.

It'll be a couple months or years until we do if we do it all now.

But that they definitely were changing the culture in terms of the types of shows that they were green lighting and what they were interested in representing in the marketplace.

So that is unfortunate and interesting.

The second point is when this whole deal started, even a year ago when it was seeming that Netflix was going to buy HBO, like one thing that I think you and I can attest and I don't think this is reporting, I think that Matt Bellany, who actually does reporting, would say the same thing,

is that's got the amazing thing about Casey as he keeps his powder dry.

Like he does not seem that bothered.

And I think that is just genetically who he is.

But I also think that we now have months, years, decades of evidence that somehow HBO has succeeded by just letting the excellence do the talking and that it manages to keep on rolling despite all kinds of outrageous mergers, whether it was time Warner, whether it was AOL discovery and now this one.

So it makes a lot of sense that Ellison would want to maintain stability at HBO.

It's interesting that he also has signal that he's going to keep the head of CNN to maintain stability there at least for now.

Your guy Mark Thompson.

That's my guy.

Fair and balanced.

But I'm sure him right next to Aaron Nola.

I have so much hope pinned on these two gentlemen tonight and in the near future.

No, it's just that if you have someone who has not only proven over the past decade that he can lead HBO's particular brand in the marketplace and navigate everything that's going on.

But also, and I think this is crucial.

Casey in the last few years has proved that he is also able to program.

John R.I.P content, welcoming the DC shows and Harry Potter into the HBO universe.

And then also what he did with HBO Max, which fell under his umbrella and immediately programmed the pit.

So it is exactly the kind of kind of like almost doing your homework before you realize that you're even rolled in graduate school performance that would make him the obvious air parent to lead all programming, not just maintain his role at HBO.

There's so many different sort of paths we can follow from this, but the one that's so interesting is what you just suggested, which is that in some ways.

Boys has been training for this for years or proving proving the theorem of this for years when the HBO Max experiment started and it was going to be like HBO's over here, but over here is going to be like an elevated TBS TNT kind of show.

You know, they've had hits and misses.

I think over time, in my experience, audience audiences have been telling us and telling networks or companies.

I don't want to think too hard about where to find the things I want to find.

I just want them presented to me and I will accept a Kaylee Cuoco, like kind of family drama or spy show next to somebody somewhere or I may destroy you.

And that, you know, that as long as the shows are good, people are happy to have that variety of stuff to choose from.

I think that what that leads me to is what's going to happen to these networks, but really these verticals and really these apps and really these streaming services.

So today in the Hollywood Reporter, they got Casey to talk a little bit about what's happening and he was gracious and was just like, I'm going to let David talk about what his vision for the management of the services going to be.

But what he did suggest is that essentially that he would view this as more of a bundle than like a merger, you know, that there is not going to be a HBO mount where Game of Thrones is sitting next to lioness.

Now there may be some.

I'm sorry for your loss.

I mean, that's just my living room dog, you know, I mean, you like it is.

But there's that there's not going to be necessarily now will that will that mean on HBO, you can opt in to also having all of Paramount content or on Paramount, you can do the same for HBO.

I'm sure that there will be something like that.

The TV effication of all TV again is hilarious to me.

And Ted Sarando's just did an upfront or a talk about the inevitability of channels hitting Netflix.

You know, we're going back to the way things were in a lot of ways.

So I'm fascinated to see the actual user experience play out here and how that relates back to Casey's new responsibilities, but you're so right.

I mean, this guy has been getting ready to program beyond cocktail parties in New York and Los Angeles for a very long time.

Yeah, and it's also just a smart, I mean, hopefully we'll get the chance to talk to him about this on the record, but, you know, I'm sorry I'm a broken record.

I've just been suffused with this HBO stuff.

So I'm reading that tender box book and like it's just so interesting to think about the subtle evolution of what it means to not be TV to be HBO.

Because if you go back to Michael Fuchs who was like the first head of programming from the 80s into the 90s, he is whole, I mean, he was a complicated guy, but like his programming strategy boiled down to if they're doing it, we're not.

Like that is entirely it. If something came across his desk that felt like it could live on any other channel, it was an instant no.

I only said yes to the things that that wouldn't that isn't necessarily a successful strategy in an era when so many companies are primed to sell prestige content and also need to get the same type of eyeballs or like advertiser desired types of eyeballs as HBO HBO lost its, you know, the uniqueness of its fiefdom a lot of years ago.

So what Casey has sort of evolved the brand into mean is so it is TV, but what's our HBO version of it and in a way that conversation started with Game of Thrones, which they, you know, which isn't really thought of this way anymore, but when it premiered, it was a big swing for them, not just because of the expense, but because it was on the same channel at the same time as sopranos.

So I think if we go back and read a lot of the early coverage of it or reviews, there's probably a lot of like handholding in the sense of don't worry, there's a lot of complicated men talking in rooms here, like it's not that discordant with boardwalk empire, you know, and then the dragons came later.

So it was kind of a gateway drug towards what does it mean for HBO to do these types of shows and now we are living in a world and doing a podcast where we cover lanterns and the pit and there are superhero shows and medical shows on every service, but what makes these distinctly quote unquote HBO and I say that knowing that the pit is max, but it's just a very, very smart, I think self directed evolution that has not necessarily intentionally but is clearly led to this moment.

And we'll see how it plays out across now that he has even more channels potentially to play with, but what do you make of the overall strategy of post six post post rob on to fumbling the bag David Ellison making peace with the town making peace with the industry and basically preaching stability, not just ability, but abundance right saying we're going to release we're staying in Hollywood we're going to make more movies here we're going to make 30 theatrical.

And then we're going to make a couple of releases a year CNNs not going away or changing HBO is not changing like really trying to preach stability is this.

And your opinion or is this just good optics for transitioning away from fuck you guys I'm going to Nashville I have seen enough public negotiations take place in the world of entertainment and sports over the last 15 years of kind of professionally observing the stuff that I can recognize say rattling when I see it and I think I was seeing that on both the paramount side and the and the states attorney general side there was a resignation I think among people that once Netflix didn't get this that this was about.

This was going to happen and yes I agree with fantasy who talks all the time with a big picture of like I don't think this needed to take place at all.

Yep.

But once it does and once the ball is rolling downhill like kicking it off the mountain is not an option you know kicking that ball off the off the hill is not an option so like you've got to finish it and you've got to you've got to land it.

I I am very open to the idea that there is certainly not going to be like a kind of political ideology behind the programming I don't think that TV works that way I don't think entertainment works that way I haven't really sensed yet like a few like now we can all pitch paramount and peace like but it's only been two days but I don't know if I if I detect a palpable relief as much as I'm gonna be a big one.

A palpable relief as much as a.

You know I I don't think I frankly I guess I don't really think that Cindy Holland would have been a bad choice like I'm very very like excited to see what Casey boys does with all the different ranches of paramount and Warner Brothers and how he defines those.

And maybe there's going to be some contraction in there I don't know but I don't think really that like I've been able to sense a sense of like now we can get back to regular scheduled programming the thing I was fascinated by sorry if you want to respond to that no I think it's just a good observation I think that you know one thing that I've hopefully consistently said and continues to be the case is that.

Fewer buyers sucks like it doesn't matter if they put they will they will continue to operate these planks I think is distinct operations for a while and but I don't know how fuzzy that distinction gets when there's one person in charge of all of it I mean it's certainly possible but I would imagine that coming from that experience that you were alluding to when Kevin Riley and Sarah Aubrey were running HBO Max as a distinct a buyer in the marketplace from HBO and they bought station 11 for example which doesn't in or hacks for example.

Which both of which could have easily lived on HBO I would imagine the Casey is low to enter into a situation like that again where he is actively having his French hospital or see and drama bidding against her equivalent at paramount for for things so I think there's just generally there's fewer buyers which means which is which is going to have downstream negative effects of the industry and I don't think that has changed I don't think that has changed at all which I still think is massively a bummer but in terms of like the immediate.

Reaction or the immediate like fallout for the consumer this has to have been relatively for people who are paying attention this is a.

Relatively stable outcome yeah because your HBO isn't going anywhere in your paramount I mean honestly what is paramount right now it is the place you watch your Taylor Sheridan shows Taylor's leaving his shows may continue but what are the other like.

I guess Star Trek but that sort of influx as well yeah I was just looking at the paramount IP and I have to say that the idea of I think the HBO is shown a pretty consistent ability to develop.

And make things when they're ready to be made and they will be pretty merciless and pretty.

Pretty stringent about like saying like okay.

Blood moon or whatever that game of throwing show with the amy watch was or um.

You know going all the way back to to to know a bomb back making the corrections it it'll be like if it's right and it's ready then it's good but it's not going to be hey we need to make.

A minority report series or we need to make um you know a.

A gritty Beverly Hills cop reimagining you know I think it's going to be because somebody came in with a good idea and they thought they could make a good show out of it now I suppose that would be the most interesting thing is if.

If the rubber hits the road in terms of demand and in terms of a paramount saying like we actually need.

X amount of minutes put up on the streaming service a year to satisfy shareholder demand and show growth or whatever it is and does that.

Outpace the usual development process that the HBO sensibility is or aesthetic is.

I think the question the other question that is relevant here is what is actually keeping the paramount brand of float because for the purposes of this podcast we talk about the shows that come across our trends and as interesting or or or as appalling as the case maybe with certain Taylor shared and shows.

I would imagine that there is a not insignificant number of their subscribers that subscribe because of sports that subscribe because of Nickelodeon kids content that subscribe because of Star Trek or subscribe because they want to watch the CBS

comedies that they are stream them or whatever the case may be so really the conversation might be less about what Casey does to paramount plus as an elite brand which you know is going to take years to figure out and before we figure that out we're going to see what Cindy

had in mind unless he comes in and really rips things up.

So it really is more about comparing the discovery content in terms of how deep the library is now deep that benches you know and if they decide to merge some of that stuff I'm not really sure but like.

I don't I'm not saying this to pick sides like I think I generally I remain quite bearish on this merger and annoyed by it but I will say that I don't fully understand what paramounts identity is and maybe that's what the Cindy hire was.

I don't know I'm calling your Cindy I don't know her but like this in the hall and hire was meant to address that but those types of shifts take years and she didn't get that what happens to the 40 shows she greenlit.

And to the overall deals that she signed obviously I think the incoming administration is pretty savvy and they're not going to be like a duffer brothers we got to work with these guys but.

You know she did a good job going around and and building out this talent stable and I think put a lot of stuff in motion.

Is there an inevitable like we'll see where that happens when there's an administration change or what.

I think it depends on the overall needs of the parent company you know this this merger has been done with an enormous amount of debt and so there's definitely going to be some.

Clock watching in terms of return on investment the only example I would point to in in recent years is what has happened with Amazon and prime video where Jen Salkey left the company Peter Friedlander who we spoke to when he was at Netflix not on we have spoken to him you know off the record or about things the business when he was at Netflix he took over.

And one thing that I can say is that he has been very deliberative and so the the examples of what he is doing aren't necessarily there yet in terms of what's being programmed or what's coming on to the service the way you see someone's hand is executive shufflings.

You know org chart.

Redo's and then you just hear things like for example I don't even think we talked about it but like there's the Robocop series that is coming from that is in production now starting Dan Stevens and coming from Peter Ako who worked on log 49 it seems pretty cool.

My understanding is that that was something that was in purgatory and then when it reached his desk and he considered a Peter was like yes so it's a slower more deliberative process and things that were no.

So it's like involved in law enforcement.

I'm interested.

Could be me or could be us but like yes has become knows knows become yeses and but Amazon is a very slow slow slow process even before he got there because Amazon can afford to be and I really curious.

What the internal metrics are in terms of how quickly this show needs to get on with itself because it is this is not these those money this is.

Oracle wishes I don't even know what you call it yeah I mean and and they're also committed to putting out 30 theatrical films a year so yeah we're this money is going and coming and how the verticals of.

Of saying you know like is mission impossible is that something we're for instance do you want to do a mission impossible franchise reboot and try and find the next teeth and hunt do you want to do an M.I.

I you know an M.I. show that's about like this the spy world you know I I'm very fascinated to see the first dozen stories we get about like.

Show is not coming these ideas away I know if I'm the only person who's thought of that then shame on the city.

Jamon you can pass I want to keep on getting a lot of these ideas and hunt shows for all.

John void origin story I guess that's actually the original mission impossible series I guess we've done that yeah.

Do you want to comment on reports that that some of these things like Casey's elevation like the like the.

The renegotiations with the current head of CNN are these are these shops to the vibe shift you say you think it's because you know me scared David Ellison keeping.

Mark Thompson has his job today because David Ellison doesn't want to face Senator James tell Rico and explain his actions the people with a lot of money in the world probably need to be.

And I think that's not the most sensitive to the fact that the world is not always going to be the same.

I don't know did you watch Pete Higgs at speech seems like it's going to be fine yeah and I I personally hope that he goes to prison so you know like I just don't think we're always going to I'm not being cocky and I'm not like saying like oh I think that like in two years the Trump fevers over and everything's going to go back to Friday night lights and parks and wreck.

I do think that like we're not going to live in this moment forever and yeah one of the things that I think has been a hallmark of the last six years is like Hollywood sort of falling over itself to try and catch up with where they think.

A culture wars going and I would say that one of the things I admire about Casey boys is administration HBO is he has not done that either way.

This episode is brought to you to the end of the day.

I'm not going to be a culture wars going and I would say that one of the things I admire about Casey boys is administration HBO is he has not done that either way.

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Let's talk a little bit about some new shows get off the business and talk about the art of TV how about that.

Two big ones this week one in HBO show one and that flick show Andy and I each watched separately like I didn't I didn't watch war and Andy hasn't checked out East of even yet although we'll both do that.

Going forward but why don't you go first and tell me a little bit about war I'm excited for you to check out war and I'm curious what the response is going to be because so war is in HBO show but it is very much a co production with sky it is also you know airing on Thursday nights so I think the the

the the premiere episode is coming on tonight so it's definitely carved out a little bit into that sort of liminal space between an HBO Max show and an HBO original where it fits it's created by George K who did Lupin for Netflix and also hijack I believe and we don't really have a term for it but we

should for this very particular genre of super slick UK content which is like there's almost like a house style for British shows made at a certain price point and maybe made for an international audience and

this is very much that in that like you know the London I has never looked shinier incredibly crisp several suits and like beautiful shots of canary war from people dining in the city and like a very very flash aspirational vision of the city that you and I love very much.

and if you like that plus like some just ultimate that guy and that gal British actors you're going to like the show but I got to say it is the kind of premise that just knocks down doors and gets yeses in every room you would ever bring it into it it's kind of surprising that it hasn't really been done before so

so let's see the show and we should we should note that the show has been greenlit for two seasons and I didn't even realize this as we were starting the second season cast is already announced and it's likely already filming but basically the show it's called war every season will be about two warring law firms in London tackling or tussling over a very very big case the first season is a divorce case that pits a like absolutely like bespoke incredibly powerful firm called cathcartes in the show

against a scrappy husband and wife firm and the case is a massive divorce between HBO stalwart Dominic West who plays a billionaire with a bit of a wandering eye and see in a Miller as his actress wife and the focus though is very much on the firms and how they're building the case and intrigue and it just does this incredibly slick introduction of characters and the

class and of whose on what team in a way that is absolutely like kind of preposterous but also quite enjoyable because there's an actor like Pipp Torrance who is an all fame elite that guy he's been incredibly tall bald person that you've seen like in many many shows I'm trying to think of some of his bigger ones like he's on preachers on the crown. He's been in Star Wars you recognize him okay he is the guy wearing the like the bespoke suit arching in eyebrow in Dominic West denies being unfaithful to his wife.

being unfaithful to his wife.

And that alone buys it so much time.

But it's just so instantly comfortable with itself

and knows what it is that it's a lot of fun,

especially since it's treating legal maneuverings

like it is global geopolitics.

And I was interested to note that they've already,

they've already got the second season going

and it's about a different type of case.

But they've already cast Marissa Tome and Kelly McDonald

and David Harewood.

They're just doing the thing where you fill out the call sheet.

Like in the show, Patrick Fabian from Better Call Saul

is on it looking awesome, full silver fox.

It's a very comfortable show.

And I was impressed by, no, not this, it's a copro baby.

Not that Patrick Fabian couldn't do an amazing British accent.

I wouldn't put anything past it.

No, no, but it's like it's, here's how I'll make it.

It put in terms of you to understand.

He's the uR Bernard of the show

in that they have an international player pathway exemption

so they can keep him on the squad.

Did you say that in English?

You get it.

I get it.

It's not.

We have a listener base that doesn't know about

it Eagles development projects.

I make this show for you and for Shio Kappadiya.

And I don't answer to anybody else.

Okay.

Anyway, it's just a very light, bright entertainment

and maybe the way to fold it into our larger conversation

is this show would have thrived on Apple.

It would have thrived on Netflix.

I would be shocked if they didn't bid on it.

And it's probably a relatively cost effective

and potentially splashy feather in HBO's cap.

That's really good.

I mean, I'm gonna check it out.

So it's sky made it and HBO picked it up for our shores

or was it a pro pro?

I think it's a straight copro.

They both ordered two seasons of it together.

I'm trying to detect any semblance of like reservations

about it in your voice.

Like, are you like, it's good because it's like a soapy,

fun melodrama.

Is it like transcending of that?

It depends what mood you're in.

It is so slick that you can barely hold onto it.

And there's a chance you just slide right off the building

like when Peter Parker loses his powers

in the Spider-Man movies that you love.

But I guess my question with these things always is

like, can it lean more into the premise

and actually have the kind of delirious fun

that the pilot suggests that it wants to have?

Or are we gonna spend more time with the young class conscious

barrister who's getting pressured by his posh girlfriend

to get a better job,

but thus he's gonna be a double agent

between the two legal firms.

Like, these are sorts of things that get shows greenlit

because you're sort of covering all of your bases

and telling all of the types of stories.

But there's something that is so deliciously

preposterous about the show that I kind of wish

you would lean that way.

So my sense is that it's not like I'm gonna fall out

of love with the show.

I'm just gonna kind of get bored three episodes in.

It happens.

That's my worry.

That's a big concern with Modern Television.

I'll tell you a little bit about East Veden.

Obviously that's based on the John Steinbeck novel

and has been, I'm almost surprised about the sheer amount

of pieces I've seen written about it,

written about the adaptation, profiles of Zoekazan

who is the co-creator or creator and writer.

She's the credit writer on all of the episodes

co-rides one of them.

She works with Jeb Stewart who is a really seasoned

screenwriter and together those two are going to be adapting

on some Dove next for Netflix as we talked

about a couple episodes ago.

I think East Veden is phenomenal.

Gotten deeper into the series now.

It comes out tonight today.

I think the show that I would compare it to,

which might be a little niche,

is several years ago Kenneth Onigin did an adaptation

of Howard's End.

And yes, it was great.

And that's what I kept thinking about while I was watching

this East Veden, both in its deep, deep passion

for the material that it was adapting.

But also it's like intellectual and emotional engagement

with the possibilities of that story.

And there is a burgeoning kind of like,

Kathy wasn't like that kind of conversation

when it comes to Florence Pugh's character in East Veden.

And what liberties people should or shouldn't take

with masterpieces of literature

though when they're adapting them.

And you know, this is extending all the way to lanterns

when it comes to, that's not my how Jordan kind of stuff.

But watching East Veden, I was immediately just sucked in

by the level of competence and talent obviously on screen

and behind the camera.

First of all, the writing is gorgeous.

The stuff that feels like embellishments or additions,

they only deepen and enrich and enrich the experience for me.

The performances uniformly are fantastic.

I'll specifically highlight Christopher Abbott

and Mike Faced from earlier episodes of the show

playing two brothers who have a complicated relationship

with their father play by Tracy Letz,

which I identify with as somebody who has a complicated

relationship with Tracy Letz, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And obviously Florence Pugh for people who are familiar

with East Veden's story Florence Pugh's character,

Kathy comes into their lives and creates volcanic change.

It was shot for the most part by Stuart Dreyberg

who worked on early Jane Campion material like the piano

and also shot Lone Star for John Sales.

And it is gorgeous.

I think they did the badlands days of heaven.

We shoot from 5 a.m. to 6 a.m. and 5 p.m. to 6 p.m.

And it's like every shot is magic hour.

Every shot is like this purple pink rose sky

and like, you know, gnats flying over cornfields.

And it's just like, how did you guys do this?

But it's just such a caring, loving, beautiful piece of work.

And I think it's thought provoking.

If you are the kind of person who's like very, very guarded

about books that you love being interpreted

in different ways, maybe it's not for you.

You know, I would encourage you to check it out.

And also I just think everybody needs to get over themselves

and stop acting like, and I will hold this,

I will hold that attitude when Lone Star comes out

and when they make Andor too back in business,

or whatever that happens to like my beloved stuff

or whatever we see.

But I'm just trying to say like,

this is just such a beautiful piece of work.

And it's pitched at a tone that I think I needed.

Like a real calming, even though there's a lot of violence

and even though there's a lot of like emotional demonstration,

it's just, it's just pitched at a tone that I feel like,

I'm like, ah, this is almost like the nourishment

you get from reading a good book.

I love that, first of all, you should just,

am I needed on this podcast?

That was just like, God, that was like the end,

that was like the end of Lincoln.

But you just pulled that out of nowhere, you were so thoughtful.

This is your stump speech, you were great.

But you remember that Howard's end?

Did you remember like, you know, Nico Muley's score

at Heady McDonald's direction at Haley Atwell's performance

and Lonnie again, obviously having like this amazing

relationship to the fourth-star novel,

but like creating something that was just so gorgeous out of it.

I think it's really exciting and I can't wait to watch

and I'm sorry I've fallen behind here.

Like, there's something to do.

You're just a guy.

But there's, yeah, but I had the preview content.

I can't lie to you, but you know,

I just kept watching tires.

So what am I supposed to do here?

I think there's such an interesting conversation

to be had and to continue to have about the spirit of adaptation.

And you know, one thing that excites me is what you're saying,

that if you have someone who is passionate about material,

the passion needs to be the north star of the adaptation,

not necessarily the original text.

Because first of all, if someone's passionate about a book,

they have a relationship to the text.

They're not doing it in order to desecrate it or upset it.

But the things that interest them in the book

might not be the things that interest you who has read the book.

And that's okay.

What you want, I think, from a successful adaptation

is someone else to show you their passion for this.

And it may not track directly with the passion

that you felt when you read it in high school

or at other point in your life.

But it should be familiar enough to draw your interest

and then the test is, does it hold your interest?

And you know, I, the other thing that I would say

just from my perspective here, because you know,

I'm doing work with Netflix.

That's why I'm in New York is that the executives

are, who are working on it, are very, very, very excited about it.

Not just because, and obviously,

because they've signed Zoe to do Lonson Dove, et cetera, et cetera.

But it's so interesting the way,

this is in the light of the conversation

we were having about changes of paramount

or changes at HBO over time.

HBO is the only consistency in terms of what they're looking for.

Every other one of these companies has tried on identities

like hats as years have passed.

And so to hear Netflix executives excited about what they were

able to accomplish in partnership with Zoe in the show,

are absolutely none of the things

that Bella Bajaria talked about in that famous slash infamous

New Yorker article from a few years ago

that coined the term Gourmet Cheeseburgers.

Now, Bella is still there.

It doesn't mean that that part of the business has fallen off.

But like, when that article came out

and we were talking about, is it cake?

I don't think you and I thought that we would return

to a moment in Netflix where we would be debating

like the sumptuousness of a literary adaptation

or the reticence or subtlety of it.

There were other places for that.

So I think it's cool, but it is also a sign

that nothing ever really stays the same for long

in this business.

But hopefully, as these things shift,

there's always a home for this type of thing.

Yeah, one of the things that I responded to

in watching the first few episodes is the naturalism.

And in some cases, the modernity of Abbott faced

in Pew's performances.

But I think that they're very reverent to the material.

They may feel,

and maybe they feel it feels modern

because I'm familiar with those people as modern people.

You know what I mean?

Like, sometimes I can't tell,

but there is a lived in natural kind of humanity

to the three characters that I think is very difficult

to do in period pieces.

Very difficult to do in adaptations of things

that people have like this fixed idea of like,

this is how Charles Trask talked in my head, you know,

and this is what he looked like.

And faced brings like a different quality

and Abbott brings like a different quality.

And Pew certainly brings like a different quality,

but they are magnetic performers.

The three of them are really, really something.

Do you think that the show correctly captures the dynamic

and it's a subtle dynamic between Black Widow

and Professor X in their living and action?

I mean, thank you.

It's weird.

That's what we can say.

I would choose East of Eden to introduce Battleworld.

I thought some of the choices she made regarding

the legacy virus and cable traversing the timeline

to try and save mutants was a little bit surprising,

but I don't want to spoil too much of East of Eden for you.

That said, I think you and I are firmly in favor

of Tracy Letts being revealed to be the beyonder.

Like I just think that like,

as what are our natural thoughts?

We could have done this for like hours.

Like you would have had a goal.

I'm coming alive now.

It's like the end of my day, but this is the most exciting.

This is the most excited I've been.

Is what if in episode six of East of Eden, Battleworld started?

I mean, what if what if Doom shows up?

He's just like, I'm so sorry.

All of this has been a mistake.

And I feel like the trass boys would be like, we knew it.

Yeah.

Like this has felt wrong from the start.

And some thought it was because of the sins of our mother,

but really, really, it's because this is a carbon copy

of a world that only was created when Steve Rogers went

to dance with Haley Atwell,

who was playing her character from Howard's end.

Yeah, people don't understand.

Everything is basically just a marble spinoff.

There's layers to this.

Do you want to talk about slow horses next

or would you like to save that for the end?

Yeah, that's just because the thing about slow horses, Chris,

here's the thing about slow horses six seasons in.

It remains hard to talk about.

I find week to week for any number of reasons.

One of the reasons why it was hard to talk about for me

the last two years was because I felt

that it had perfected itself and thus didn't change.

And consistency is such a good thing

and a rare thing in television.

But slow horses had actually reached this kind of point

that I think some sitcoms reach

where we would get on and be like, that was fun.

That was fun.

We were starting to talk about slow horses like it was,

like when we check in on Abbott Elementary

and we were like, still a lovely, wonderful, enjoyable experience.

I don't have any notes, you know, like this is great.

That has changed.

And I don't know, I should think more about this

before I speak about precedent.

But Chris, this show fucking rips again.

This season, three episodes in is one of my favorite things

of the year.

It is an absolute joy.

I cannot tell you the amount of willpower

it's taking to not watch ahead right now.

This episode was at once so deeply slow horses

in the sense that like you tune it in

to see the relationships between characters

that have been built over time

and to see maybe a cacaid different way

into some familiar spy scenarios.

Yes, yes, yes.

But it has a different engine under the hood.

It has a different sense of stakes

and a different sense of gathering storms.

And also, crucially, it has a sense of surprise,

this type of surprise that I think maybe you only earn

if you've lulled people into this kind of complacency.

And I'll leave you with this thought that just like,

because I believe this show to just be like a working,

successful thing that is going to be brought back every year

so you can't rattle from the cages too much,

although I knew if there was a body count.

The fact that all of this plot of the season,

and this is obviously a spoiler,

comes from the fact that Diana fucked up,

kind of shocked me.

I didn't know the show had that in its bag

that it would be unsentimental

about a character of whom we've come to

accept a certain level of competence

or a certain relationship with Jackson

and the rest of the team.

But at this episode was a dazzler.

I was watching an interview with Tony Gourett the other day.

I can't remember who he was talking to.

It was another podcast.

It was not ours.

And he was talking about how the best writing

comes when you ask yourself what a character would really do

not what you want them to do.

Not because you've decided on an endpoint

or you need this character to get to this place.

So they say yes or no.

And he was talking a little bit about like,

you can see that that happens in stories

when there's wild fluctuations in the intelligence

of characters, like they're dumb one scene

and then they're genius the next scene.

But I was, this was in the back of my head

when I was watching episode three.

And I think I'd left out at me

during the confrontation between flight and Diana,

which flight could be a character.

And I understand this is adapted from MacHaran's novels

and there's depth to all these characters.

And if you've read all of them,

you see things coming from miles away.

But flight could be a piece of furniture on the show.

She could be a cool lady who runs the dogs

and kind of shows up in scenes to say,

damn it, Jackson, what are you doing?

To have her all of a sudden snap into,

hey, fuck you and fuck your job to Diana.

And all of a sudden, the access of the show tilts a little bit

because not only does flight turn into a three-dimensional character

in a second that you don't have to like read into her,

she is literally that on the screen.

Diana is now 10 times weaker than when the episode started

because she is losing allies

and she's losing material kind of the weight

and muscle of this job with every passing moment

as she's compromised by whoever she's compromised by

and now is losing internal support.

I thought that was great writing.

That's an example of like,

you can do so much within a show,

within the margins of a scene

and within the margins of a like,

we understand that flight is maybe the sixth or seventh listed character

on the show, but it's,

she can still be important to where things are going.

I was wondering if that made any sense.

I mean, do you see what I'm saying?

It makes sense.

I think it's well, I think Chris, I'm gonna affirm you.

I think you did great.

I know we're on different coast.

It's hard to read body language.

Maybe I look bored.

I was just checking like, you know,

the starting lineups and stuff,

but no, I think you're exactly right.

And I'll take it a step further in terms of like,

what we want from writing.

It can be a dangerous trap when you are writing.

And as we said,

there's a new showrunner took over the season,

although there are a lot of experience hands

still in the writers room.

It can be challenging when you are doing reunions

in the sense that I don't know if,

I don't know how many slow horses fanatics

were waiting for Sid to come back

or expecting Sid to come back.

The chemistry and the banter that Olivia Cokin

and Jack Loudon developed had three hours to develop,

I think, before she gets shot in season one,

I mean, it's incredibly quick.

Fat said, it's a type of thing that looks really cool

in an outline or even on a whiteboard when you're like,

Sid and River re-equaint themselves while being chased

by Russian hit squad.

It's another thing when the scene in practice

feels like every single thing I wanted

from those characters.

It hit every note that felt pitch perfect to me

in the sense of like, it had just the right amount of banter.

It had just the right amount of flirtation,

had the right amount of, wait, who were you again?

And also the right amount of like,

gravitas in the sense that she was shot in the head,

she was shot in the head right here.

And it played it out over these increasingly frantic

and sometimes funny set pieces that never felt clownish,

which whereas other parings or other moments of the show,

especially when I was dealing with,

as you said, different book plots.

But like, I don't know, for me,

like the nadir of the show, even though it was a funny scene,

was last season when River and Co accidentally

killed the right amount of politician.

Yeah.

Very funny, very unexpected.

Good, good co-river banter,

I mean, those characters are fun when placed together,

which happened again this week.

But like, in service of what exactly?

What is going on now?

You put it back into this kind of mechanism

and we're off to the races.

It's so funny because you bring up the last season

because I've stopped worrying too much about

what that super story of, of slow horses is

or what this is all in service of in terms of like,

what are the chess pieces and like,

what are we trying to, what,

and point are we trying to get to?

And it's more of a vibe thing,

but this season does feel more legible to me.

I think maybe the mechanism of the cat and mouse stuff,

which is a huge part of slow horses,

is definitely on display in a way

that it feels a little bit more dangerous

and it feels like their stakes are a little bit higher.

And I just got to say, I mean,

just to echo what you mentioned about Olivia Cook coming back.

There's probably a world in which she plays Jean Grey

and they can be like, we just won't bring Sid back.

We can figure out something else.

Maybe we can bring in a different character

that's essentially like doing what Sid's doing.

First of all, that's like incredible TV making

to be like this character who we've seen at a relationship

with fire four years ago is now the co-star of this season

and the lottery ticket that is the two of them together.

Also like to have the discipline

to not put river with anyone else really over the years,

even with the like brief luizest stuff,

to just kind of be like, we're just gonna have this guy

be like a solo loser for four years,

even though everybody in the world is like,

when is Jack Loudon gonna kiss someone?

And then have him be reunited with this woman

who he only got the briefest of moments with

and only like the briefest of snapshots of her relationship.

It's like so good, man.

That's what TV's supposed to do.

Not everyone.

My daughter won't watch the screeners

of the new Predn prejudice because she's like,

hashtag not my Darcy.

Oh, she thinks she thinks she thinks she's goofy looking.

She's out.

Your daughter is when she's not marauding lanterns,

message boards being like,

this is not how the man hunter operates, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, she's a big kilowatt fan.

She wants the rest to lantern core.

I, but just to your point about,

oh my god, you just said Louisa.

Yeah.

The let's get Louisa who seems to be having a very important

meeting at 8 p.m.

But you know, again, maybe there were

three or three hours, no problem.

It's also always dark there, she can say.

That's also true.

It could have been lunchtime.

She, it was just so great.

She hasn't been gone that long,

but like the, the, the, the,

the visual telling of the story of how eager

she is to get away from these embarrassing people,

the glow up that she's had,

and then still have space for her to react

to Rivers Grandfather's funeral and the news of that.

It's, it's pretty elite.

Like we always, like you said,

we've talked about the shows in the language

of the way we talk about other types of shows.

But what we are highlighting now is back to the language

of prestige dramas and what we like about them.

Obviously, like I'm, I'm very excited

to hear your enthusiasm.

Not only that, but like I, I think it's pretty rare

that I see you go, go on a little bit of a dip

with the show and then come back so, so strong.

And it's really like, it's probably,

you just, we just don't have enough opportunities

to get this deep into a run and have favorite seasons.

Like it's, it's a very refreshing experience.

Before I let you go, let's just run through

some of these shows that we wanted to highlight

that were not on the top 100 list.

Now we really believe with this list.

We haven't though.

We haven't talked about it on the whole.

I guess I talked about it with Joe.

Perhaps I, maybe I'll just say that I'm surprised

and pleasantly surprised with the impact it seems to have made

because I think it's led to a lot of interesting conversations.

Obviously, just to reiterate, this was sent out,

a ballot was sent out to like 500 people about,

including critics, showrunners, actors, all sorts of folks.

They were allowed to give 10 shows.

They must have debuted after the year 2000 or 2000 on,

which is why shows like Sprano's aren't on the list.

And if you voted for a show, it wasn't about ranking.

It was like one, if you voted for a show,

that show had a vote.

And then the show with the most votes was breaking bad.

And people still, and we should,

people don't seem to understand this

on a level that is concerning.

That like the New York Times did not compile this list.

The New York Times has a lot to fucking answer for this year,

but not this.

They didn't drop anything because they thought it would be cool

or move something up because it would be provocative.

It is how people vote.

It is 100% the tabulation of the votes.

Now yes, and our votes are included in that.

As is the case with like the site and sound poll,

I think you can feel generational change

every so often with these polls happening.

And I can't remember.

I think I may have said this to Joe last week.

I don't think that this list is going to look

the same way in five years.

I don't think something is going to change about this,

whether it's the critical reappraisal of something

or people saying, you know what, actually, I don't like that.

Or this wasn't as good as you guys said it was.

Whatever it is, I have a feeling, things are changing

regardless.

Also just I think a change in critical consensus

about what TV does and what TV does well.

Regardless, 100 shows are ranked or listed on this ballot

on this project.

And Andy and I just wanted to shout out

a couple that didn't make the list.

It's a different project than the other shows

we would have put on our list.

You know, like I think, like they're my neck,

for the most part, they're a couple on this list

and I'm about to share with you that

would have been, they were in contention for my top 10.

But a lot of the other near misses

or finalists are on the list.

Just I didn't vote for that.

I'll also make a confession.

Yeah, please.

Both of my list I submitted,

but also on the list I made today,

I would say that it's obviously like a little bit weighted

towards the time period that we've been making

some version of this podcast.

Right.

I found it a little bit difficult to like remember,

I don't think I had a best of TV 2005, you know,

I don't remember as well what was happening back then

and going and

whoops.

You don't remember a lot of what was happening

in the early 2000s.

Do you want to

just trade it out?

I was like, brother.

So what did you list off a couple of shows

that you love that didn't make the list?

On your top 10.

Yes.

There is, there's a show or two that didn't make the list, right?

Like mine hunter is on your list.

It is, and it did not make the list.

And that did not make the list.

So I won't, I won't share that.

I made, I started compiling shows for this project

that you asked for me and I came up with 17 shows.

I came up with 13.

I think you're deserving of it.

Yeah.

Probably some of them are the same.

Should we just run it backwards?

It's kind of no particular order, except for the top few.

Sure.

So I'm just going to name some.

Glow on Netflix,

Alison Breed, Betty Gilpin,

absolutely incredible ensemble comedy

that I think got dinged

because Netflix rescinded its renewal of the final season.

And I think that it slipped away from people's consciousness

in front of their brains

because it didn't finish its story,

which is a weird reason to ding something,

but everybody had a reason to leave something off.

And I think that's as good as any.

The doose, the less-loved,

David Simon, George Pelicano's collaboration

about Times Square and New York and the porn industry.

Happy endings is not on the list, right?

It was on West Lee's list

and we talked about it.

It's not on the list.

It's at the great, great, one of the great

just joke per minute sitcoms of this century.

Representing my children,

although they wouldn't be happy about this now,

but at the time, the Nickelodeon show avatar

the last airbender, not the live action version, the cartoon,

is the type of cartoon storytelling

that would have blown my mind as a kid

because it is so expansive and so original.

That's cool.

Good shot.

Broad-church, which I feel like-

Damn.

Didn't know you had it in your dark.

I'm not a part of contemporary.

Well, we owe a lot of our contemporary talent.

Like we still talk about,

like you and I talk about it,

but talk about in writers rooms,

the kind of the grief relay that that show began with

of like one crime permeating a town.

Like that is a blueprint for a lot of TV

that did make the way.

It's just in a lot of TV that gets made all the time.

I mean, I put we on the city on there

because it gave us so many great podcasting moments.

Thanks to your Wayne Jenkins imitation.

But again, it's another example of like,

what is the bar for entry for one season wonders?

Like Chernobyl and I made a destroyer,

you made the list, but we own the city didn't.

Because I gotta be me, I threw terriers on there.

You did.

Which is famously, infamously,

one of my favorite one season wonders ever.

It should have been more FX.

Now it's 15, 16 years old.

Do you want me to burn my top 10?

Do we overlap on a couple yet?

I don't know.

I haven't, we're have left any.

I'll do a couple of mine until I get up until

up until upper reaches here.

Sure. One is, I think I had a lot more on this list.

It was mini series or limited series.

I don't know what jumped out at me about that,

but I of those included Park Cheynewook's adaptation

of Little Drummer Girl that came out several years ago.

Oh, yeah.

Alexander Skarsgard and Florence Pugh.

I had the Northwater, Andrew Hayes, brilliant

seafaring mini series with Colin Farrell,

the Enjaco Connell that came out a couple of years ago.

I also, I mentioned Howard's End earlier.

That was on my list.

And Barry Jenkins' Underground Railroad,

which I think that is an incredibly difficult show

to watch, but is an astonishing monument

to that insurgency of directors into television

and doing cinematic things with TV

and was really like an incredible piece of work.

And then as kind of more traditional entries,

I have damages, which I...

So for you.

So this is the Roseburn Glengloss legal thriller

that was on FX in the 2000s.

And I think if it came out today,

would be one of the most talked about watched,

like exciting shows,

because it was ahead of its time with like,

we're gonna kill a major character in the second episode

and we're gonna burn plot to the point where you,

there doesn't seem to be any way to get out of this corner.

And then we do somehow it's a real precursor to Ozark

and shows like that.

And I also have Narcos on my list,

which is I think gonna be looked back on

as a secretly essential Netflix show

and a huge, huge uniter when it comes

to different groups of people watching a kind of TV.

And as a real ground breaker when it comes to the Wikipedia,

true story brought to TV screen style of TV making.

Also, if we had been asked the question

when we were covering Narcos when it was on,

who is the most obvious superstar in breakout candidate here?

We would have said Boyd Holbrook

and instead Pedro Pesco and Dr. Mora

were both in the cast of that show.

Pretty crazy.

So great picks, especially like Little Drummer Girl

and Northwater are exactly the kinds of things

I was looking for when I spent the 10 minutes

before recording wildly Googling

and D Greenwald top 10 list, please.

Because I have no memory of anything.

But okay, a couple of the shows

that I felt like deserve recognition here

and certainly are influential.

Our buddy Sam S. Mail showed Mr. Robot.

I think Mr. Robot got dinged for the very stark.

I'm not gonna say dip in quality,

but season one is so exceptional.

And seasons two, three, four, five are fascinating

and rewarding and have incredible moments in them.

But they are very, very different show.

As Sam took creative, full creative controls.

I understand it, I don't think it's fair.

Because again, you get into that,

like what are you judging here?

We have single season shows on there.

So it's tough when you were when you were downgrading candidates

because of not sticking the landing.

I put the OC on there.

It's recency bias in the sense that my older daughter

is watching it and so I'm watching it with her.

And I will be clear that I have only watched with her.

The first season again, and I know that that's another show

that had a dip and rebounded.

And you know, it's first season though,

had 27 episodes in it.

Which is insane.

It is more episodes in one season

than I would say a good percentage of the shows

that made the list.

And it was so engaging and so fun and so influential

for a whole host of shows that came after.

The comedy series Detroiters didn't make the list.

Yeah.

Great Tim Robinson.

I may destroy you did make the list,

but Detroiters is so, so funny and so reliable

and worth streaming.

Here's one I want to pause to hear your thoughts on.

Dark.

Yeah.

I mean, one of the best first seasons of TV of the century,

I think, and then you know, you did need

a physics degree to understand the third season, but still.

But it was a perfectly folding puzzle cube.

Like it is the most German version of anything

I've ever seen that it is meticulously engineered.

So deeply unsentimental because of that,

maybe the most successful and also horrifying

time travel show of all time,

but still living on Netflix, still worth watching,

absolute mindbender, mind hunter,

but you've spoken about it at length,

incredible show misunderstood, canceled too soon.

Did you have on your initial list

or on this exercise?

Did you put industry down?

I didn't this is on this is the number one draft pick

of my shows that were on it.

And it would put a best like my 11th or 12th.

I feel stupid not having done it and not having put it on it

because I think one of the problems

of making a 10 best list of the centuries that you wind up

having to pay the bill that you wrote yourself

on the podcast where I'm like, industry is the show

of the decade, but somehow it doesn't make this list.

And it wasn't out of any.

I honestly am such a huge believer in the later seasons

of industry and it's evolved into what it's become,

which is kind of like a global financial crime thriller.

It's still like my most anticipated show

of next year is still industry.

I don't really know why it didn't make it onto this list.

I think it didn't make the list for two reasons.

One, because it is absolutely a grower, not a shower,

which is a plot line they would probably do

in the upcoming final season of industry.

That was Eric's problem in general, yeah.

The way that the show is grown in popularity

and also in discourse, like exponentially season over season

means that if they were doing this near time list

next year, I think it probably would have cracked

the bottom 10th of it.

But there's also the opposite of recency bias.

Like, like Widow's Bay hadn't hit yet when this,

I think when we got the poll, which was earlier in the spring,

but like I also don't think Widow's Bay would have made the list

because people are like, well, let's wait and see,

let's not be rash about this, let's let like history judge.

But industry certainly deserves a place in terms of consideration,

but I do wonder if some of these people are just holding out

for that final season.

Speaking of the season thing, I wondered what your thoughts

were on Fargo, which was sort of a surprise,

a mission from the list.

Well, I think that this had a true detective problem,

which was an exact, true detective season one makes the list.

I did not know that that was eligible

or that we could start to identify single seasons

of anthology shows to celebrate.

And if I had, I know, and I think true detective season one

would have been in my ballot, but Fargo, I was quite shocked

because even if you want to look at the totality of Fargo's accomplishment,

it's hard to say it's not one of the 100 best.

Beyond that, and influential and important,

I'll just say it, like I didn't really like seasons three, four,

or five of, there have been five, right, of Fargo.

I think that I like to five, I can't remember.

I didn't love the, the Chris, there was a Chris Rock season,

there's a UN McGregor season, and five is John Hamm.

The second season is a perfect season of television.

And like, I almost doesn't matter what the rest were.

And season one is amazing to a great Billy Bob Thornton,

performance Martin Freeman, also the audacity of doing it and doing it well.

Like, it seems challenging to me to make that case

if you're using that, if you're using any other, any kind of logic.

Final three for me, the great Lost Sundance series rectify,

which was seen by almost no one,

but the people who did see it change them deeply.

It is an incredibly profound and moving and slow meditation

on guilt and family and has incredible performances

from Abigail Spencer and Jason Smith Cameron from Succession.

It's a really, really moving show,

but not one that many people encountered.

You know, I'm always going to stand for top of the lake.

This is the second chain campaign reference on this pod,

which is why we stay undefeated.

Lizard with Moss in one of her many great television performances,

but one of my favorites, top of the lake.

You know, I was trying to like over-math it,

which is why I ended up with kind of a chalky list,

but I was like, there's room for one, a tourist,

one in done statement, and it had to be Twin Peaks the return for me,

but top of the lake was in contention.

And then my final number one, don't understand

why it wasn't on the list, because unless every single person

was like me and forgot that it was eligible,

it's fucking bluey, man.

That of everything here of these 17 shows I just named for you,

if I could have the ballot back,

I would put bluey on my list.

But I'm not just saying it for the bit.

No, I know.

I saw a lot of chatter about like,

why not wear justice for bluey?

The ones that you didn't mention,

you mentioned industry, that would have been my first in Ripley.

Steve Zalien's that was from a couple of years ago,

zero, zero, zero, that one goes out to hitmaker,

to Tim Simons, my brother, and zero, zero, zero.

Dude, how do we not get the Nick in here?

Great call.

Great call.

The Nick is another example of something that kind of like

was taken for granted during this weird glut of like,

look at all the cool things that are happening on TV,

but also maybe felt slightly unfinished, even though it finished.

It's very much as finished.

I think it's almost just like Stephen Soderbergh's

two good interviews.

So he was like, what if Barry Jenkins makes this in another year,

but it's set in the 70s?

It was Andre Holley.

I'm like, fuck.

And maybe it's, maybe it's a victim of the fact that like,

everybody carries some flame for it in their heart.

Like there's still more to say there.

But like, we used to eat good in this country, man.

Stephen Soderbergh, single handedly shooting and editing,

a absolutely batchit Brewera examination of turn of the

century medicine starring Clive Owen and Andre Holleyn.

Like, elite, elite show.

Speaking of eating good, top chef consideration for you.

I make my own arbitrary rules and I decided that only fiction.

But if I had done that route, I would have done what you did

smartly and it made the list, which is put Bourdain.

Like, top chef certainly one of my favorite shows of the last 20 years,

but I just apples and oranges it when it comes to competition shows.

And this may seem like a reach, but I just have to shout out

these two comedies.

Motherland, which is a share and organ show from a couple years ago

with Anna Maxwell Martin, which I thought was just like a wonderful sitcom

about being a parent in London and Southside, the cop.

Oh, my God.

On HBO, which you can still watch and I highly, highly recommend.

But it was among my favorite sitcoms of our time potting together.

And that's conclude there's so many good shows out there.

I know.

This is like this job should be.

What?

And yet, I'll be talking to you briefly on Monday to discuss lanterns,

the finale, which goes up Sunday night and probably has some guests coming up

soon as well.

But Greenwald always great to see you.

It's going to be 100 degrees here in Los Angeles tomorrow on October 3rd.

So you enjoy the crisp autumn air.

I don't know which I prefer.

I'll tell you which one I prefer.

Yeah, I think we know.

See you later, brother.

I see.

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