The Color of Money with Chris Ryan

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You gotta have two things to podcast.

You gotta have brains and you gotta have balls and you gotta have too much of one and not

enough of the other.

It's hard to do old Newman.

It's hard to do.

It's hard to do.

It's a very distinct voice.

Yeah, good.

Yeah, he's got that, you know, how do you do that?

Come on.

Because it does feel like the second he, he obviously was a man who went gray early, but

there was the moment where the switch flipped and he was like, I'm elder statesman now.

And he added some sort of protrusion kind of affect his voice.

But when it, when does old Newman begin?

Is it which cast it?

Is it the sting?

No, I'm saying later.

Verticing.

He's playing mentor.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Like, that's what it begins.

Right.

But then he's still kind of badass.

I'm like, is it verdict?

Is it verdict?

He's old.

Yes, that's for sure.

No, but like abs and some malice, he's the same vibe, right?

He's like that.

But you know what I'm saying?

The voice changes.

He becomes Doc Hudson.

He gets a little gravely.

It gets a little, there's a little cigar.

You know, vote about like slap shot.

I guess you know what?

He's a man who aged perfectly.

He'd like every single decade.

He wasn't the Tom Cruise thing of like, I'm fucking clinging on, clinging on.

Yeah.

And then by collateral, he's like, what if I show you a glimpse and then I'll pull that?

Oh, okay.

Here's a question that I'm certain our guest can answer.

And I think you can answer as well, David.

I have never seen Ford Apache, Apache the Bronx.

Absence of malice feels to me like the earliest I can identify, he is playing old man.

I mean,

I'm always like in Ford Apache.

I don't remember the voice, but he's definitely like in a veteran in that.

Like right, like he's like the old fucking drunk at the office.

Right.

I mean, that precinct.

And then they're going to have to shoot a bunch of.

I think that there's also like a relationship to how much a character drinks in the movie

that takes the voice.

Right.

Like how gravely does he want to go?

Because he, well like Quintet, what's he like in that?

I prefer him being cold.

Yeah.

It's a cold ass movie.

I think it's an interesting thing.

I think it's the second hand.

He enters the 80s.

And as you said, he aged perfectly.

And I think one of the things that people study about Paul Newman is how distinct his

errors were without bumps where he kept adjusting to the time and identifying correctly.

What is the best movie star I could be right now?

How do I fit the culture?

I think this is only our second Paul Newman film.

After HUD's cut.

After the HUD sucker Brock.

HUD sucker, he's obviously doing full on old man, but also full on evil.

He's playing sort of the comedic, the comedically heightened version of this guy.

What's your favorite news person?

Is it this?

Well, I would probably say it's this or slap shot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, like, that's a really hard question because the second you asked that five movies

jumped into the front of my mind.

It's not 10, yeah.

But it's this slap shot verdict.

I think verdict is his best performance.

I agree.

It's the one he should have won the Oscar for, right?

Not to be rude to today's film, but that's who beats an Ayer.

Ben Kingsley.

Yeah.

We always come up against this.

It's like, it's just a lot of those Newman losses.

Yeah.

You're like, well, how did he lose?

And then you're like, oh, I guess that was a big one.

We've covered a couple of these films where you go, I don't understand how it's possible

Nick Nolte didn't win best actor for Prince of Tides.

Oh, it was the silence of the lambs here because you're like the most historic buzz saw

is the only thing that could have beaten this performance.

How did he lose for a HUD?

He lost his Sydney, Boate.

That's dark.

How did he lose for cool hand Luke, which he maybe like, you know, maybe that's it.

He loses to Rod Steiger for in the heat of the night.

Steiger's a legend.

That would be what's better.

Major film.

Yeah.

The major film.

Yeah.

He's also up against Warren Beatty for Bonnie and Clyde and Dustin Hoffman for the graduate.

So it's like there's three young stars.

All in kind of their most iconic role.

Yeah.

But then it's interesting because he's and so the Oscars are just like Steiger.

He's the older guy.

You say young star, but there's like a big difference.

He's old.

I mean, Beatty and Hoffman are breaking through at a whole new level.

That's Newman identifying his second phase arguably.

That's the whole thing is like.

He was the one guy who really successfully without a hitch made the transition from

being a studio system star to a new Hollywood star by seeming like the cool slightly older

guy who gets it.

The way that he kind of treats age in a lot of his movies from like the late 60s on or

the early 70s on is always really interesting to me because I think in slap shot, he's

supposed to be playing somebody who's like 41 right.

Who's at the absolute end of the line like as a hockey player, but is like he looks like

he's 60 and then in color of money, I think he's supposed to be in his 60s, but looks

kind of like a guy who could be like 45 times, you know, like the way he dresses, the way

he moves.

And he obviously remained unbelievably handsome until his dying day.

But there's a lot of power in the fact that he didn't fight it.

That he didn't try to look younger.

That he wasn't worried about seeming cool or hot.

I think this is part of what made him survive was that it was like he could always play.

Oh, it's surprising how much this guy is still kind of got it versus being like he's

trying to act a little more.

He's got it than he is.

Yeah, then like all those movies that like he kind of kept his career with.

I felt like he was incredibly comfortable in his own skin.

He may not have been, but like when he's making like what nobody's fool and stuff like

that, you're cars.

You're just like, I mean, it was that like metallic sheen felt so natural on him.

Doc Hudson, that grill.

He's there with such comfort and grace.

I've never seen any cars.

Well, he's the local judge of a town.

He's also a car.

He used to be a race car.

He was the fabulous Hudson Hornet and unfortunately he made a mistake.

He turned to too hard.

David.

Stop this.

I don't know.

I'd love it to stop.

Is that what it is?

He turned too hard to see him.

It was like he basically was he invented drifting is kind of the tragic backstory of cars.

Is he really?

Yeah.

Kind of like American drifting, not Tokyo drifting.

Correct.

Have you seen cars?

I have.

So it's like lightning McQueen.

Lightning McQueen's like, I want to be the the piston cup champion or whatever.

And he's like, well, I was that and he's like, fuck you.

You know, you weren't.

He's like, I've got the trophies right here, bitch.

And then he's got all these like 50s trophies.

Hars is Doc Hollywood basically beat for beat.

But the reveal is that the grumpy old man in town who's like, I force you to community

service is like, actually, I used to be the best racer in the world.

Right.

And then he sees him out in the desert, just fucking drifting.

Right.

And on Wilson's like, what?

You're going to do that.

I can't believe that.

Well, and he's like, there was a fault in my tires.

You know, I auditioned for nobody's fool, right?

You've told the story many times.

Did you really?

You're only audition, right?

I think so.

I mean, an audition is too strong, but like they came to my school.

You also forgot you auditioned for Elizabeth's lander.

That was the jack of time call.

And I pierced my door.

And no, for venture.

Yeah.

Inventory was like, Rooney already did that.

Yeah.

I'm not impressed.

But people forget just how wide that casting net was.

No, nobody's fool was when you were still living in New York, right?

Because that movie came out in 94.

They came to PS87 and they just talked to a bunch of kids.

I mean, I assume they were just casting a net for it.

I don't even know what the kid, who the kid is.

Sometimes I push back.

And I acknowledge the privilege I have experienced in my life.

But sometimes I push back on what I feel like from our listeners is an attitude

of everything in New York is like dainty, little, privileged, bubble shit.

And then I consider the fact that basically if you are a child in any school in New York

city, at some point you probably get lassoed into an audition.

I mean, it was just a public school, but yeah, I mean, I'd be like, like movies that

would film in like the tri-state area.

Maybe it happens less now in the era of fucking self tapes and zooms and whatever.

But I would say like through the 2000s, there was a kind of like New York city.

If they're looking for a kid and the directors like we want someone who's not polished.

Right.

Just like put up flyers at every single school.

Yeah, they were, they were to shoot that stuff around here too.

Like they shot like basketball diaries.

I can't remember if it was at my wife's school or if it was at the like adjacent boys

school, but it was like they were, they were just Hollywood east.

They were just letting her rip.

The role went to Alexander Goodwin, who then appeared in box of moonlight and mimic.

That could have been you.

Could it have been me?

That was about it.

Yeah.

But you should watch cars.

Okay.

No.

Should I like now and then we'll come back?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, what is that?

The 85 minute movie.

I mean, you know, it's long.

Oh, God, it's almost two hours long.

That movie is so bad.

It's really bad.

It's like indefensible.

Well, but here's the thing.

Cars 2 is so much worse.

And then Cars 3 isn't great, but it's so much of a rebound that I would argue that Cars

2 makes Cars 3 look like Cars 1.

Do you come out of cars thinking car excellence is not about excellent driving.

I mean, that is what the movie is about.

Okay.

You mean kind of the F1 argument of like, what's the driver really doing here?

Well, more just like you have to be a study of human moves, you know?

That is what the movie is.

You know, I've only seen F1 once and I didn't realize that it wasn't picking up what

you were putting down.

I'll say it's even more.

It's about the driver.

It's about the heart of the driver.

It's about the character of the driver.

This movie has good dialogue.

Yeah.

And it's movie.

Yeah.

Yes.

And I would say the lesson of cars and the lesson of the color of money is it's in the way

that you use it.

I would still be clear is not actually a light of dialogue in the script.

No, but it would be cool.

It would be funny if Bruce is like, I got any advice and we would.

It's in the way.

One day if I curate, you know, rep screenings or whatever it my local theater that I own

in this paradise world, I imagine right where I'm like, ah, David's, you know, this would

be part of a series that I would like to think about of like movies where you want

to live the objectively like stressful low life of the people involved.

Like you watch it and you're like, what's cooler than being a pool hustler who lives

at bars?

Like, excuse me.

That's not a good life.

You don't want to know.

I think I want it.

I think I want to hang out with these guys all the time.

I was rewatching the hustler the other night and texting you guys about it.

And I said, this is just the best life possible, right?

You got a perfect face and you're a piece of shit.

It's your life sucks.

I think that the festival could be like, I want to live inside of this.

Yes.

And a lot of it is, that's the key.

It's like you're watching movie stars play this.

You're watching people with supernatural charisma and incredible good looks live through

objectively the drags.

Yeah, they're exchanging 20s.

Like it's just like guys smoking and being like, you owe me 20.

Now you owe me 40.

The hustlers also a tragedy.

Like I forgot how much that movie is straight up bummer, a tragedy.

It's a guy whose life is broken and in trying to sort of solve himself, he experiences

greater tragedy.

Right.

And that's all the backstory for this movie, which is so interesting that he doesn't give

the big monologue explaining what happened in the first film.

Get out of the hustler.

I sort of allergic to it.

Yeah.

If Piper Laurie shows up in your movie, nothing goods happening.

It would be funny if they did like one legacy quote, like your next opponent is Minnesota

fat.

Yeah.

And you like, you know, out comes from the shadows, Gleason old, I mean, what's Gleason

so do you know?

So this is obviously like smoking the band.

There was a thing in the, there was a, he was, oh, one year from death.

Yeah.

Gleason dies the next year.

But this is the whole backstory.

Yes.

Okay.

Tell me, because I haven't looked at the dust.

We'll get through it more in depth.

But there was a sequel book called the color of money.

They basically only take the title from it.

But the book has major Minnesota fats, which makes sense if you're going to write a sequel

to the hustler.

Like, even when they start developing scripts and go like, throw all that out, start fresh,

they kept writing in parts for Minnesota fats.

And Newman was like, I think we should get Gleason back.

And they finally were like, it only made sense to basically have like one extended scene.

We couldn't justify making the bigger part, but they offered it to Gleason and he was

like too small, not going to do it.

Yeah.

I mean, like, and Newman was like, he, he said, and I agree that his like participation

in the movie wouldn't really do much for the story of it.

Yeah.

Like, of being a force ghost.

You know, like, it's we were Sims and I were explaining this movie.

A ball like it's just old like I'm sitting in a chip.

Yes.

We were explaining this movie to your friend, Ellen Cushing, a co-host of your secret

podcast.

It's different.

Everyone's subscribed.

I'm a baseball podcast.

Oh, you do.

Yeah, I just recorded my friend's house.

Yeah.

But we were trying to explain what this movie is.

She hadn't heard of it.

And I was like, it's the original legacy.

Well, and David went, yeah, you're right.

And Minnesota fats would have been the original sort of like cheap pop.

Yeah.

If he showed up for one scene or showed up in the post credits, that would have been

the original like the audience applause when it happens, but 10 minutes later, they

feel gross about it.

I also don't know that the hustler exists in people's like collective imaginations as

like a sentimental favorite that they're like, could we bring, could we bring Minnesota

fats back?

Like, I think it's a cool, it's a cool character.

Yeah.

That wouldn't hit the way like the way we like work these, no, like legacy cameos into

these new movies.

No, I mean, Jackie Gleason was so iconic that that maybe there's a degree of that and

would he?

And movie he makes with the Jack with Richard Pire, the toy is.

Oh, that's, that's 82.

Yeah.

His final film is Nothing in Common, which is the Gary Marshall Tom Hanks.

Bad dad comedy.

Where, where they're both they're looking at each other on the poster going like, but

Gleason's got a stoke.

I told the story many times.

I'm cigar, but there, there was a, the foundation of our friendships and I was doing movie

trivia night together at a bar called videology.

And there was a question of what is the name of the movie that Jackie Gleason and Tom Hanks

did together.

And I was like, oh, fuck, I can picture the poster and the two of them looking at each

other.

And it's not nothing but trouble.

It's nothing, nothing.

And I couldn't figure it out.

And I looked at one of our teammates whose name is K-A-M-E-N.

And I went, common.

I wouldn't have got it if I wasn't looking at his face and remembering what his name is.

Gleason could have done it, but yeah.

What, what was I saying this?

Oh, that you, it's like, does Minnesota fats hold the same sort of like cultural,

yeah, Marie, is he Yoda?

You did discover Sims that there was a license, but not connected to the movies licensed off

the books only Sega Genesis game.

Genesis and Saturn.

Okay.

Called Minnesota fats pool legend.

Did you, did you check it out?

Did you buy a Saturn maybe and?

No, I think the last one was the thing I do is going to go get even by a Saturn.

It's just so funny.

I was seeing that it's technically the sequel to a different Billiards game.

Yeah.

And clearly they were just like, we need our Madden S. Cook.

That's the name that moves units.

We're not going to pay the Jackie Gleason likeness rights, but can we just get the name

of the character from the book and put some other fat guy on the car?

Yeah, they have some full motion video of just a Minnesota fats type.

Mostly it's, you know, pool, also your playing pool.

So that looks like basically like a bar, blackjack machine version of it.

It does.

Yeah.

I can't remember if I've ever played a pool video game.

I've ever really came into the rotation.

Doesn't feel like a good translation.

I would also say the fact that Billiards is a tabletop game.

Yeah.

I like to play video games of things I can't do.

Right.

Right.

You're like, you're like, you're fighting.

You're playing Sega Genesis in like a Rumpus room in your dad's basement.

There's like one of the pool.

There's a twenty percent fan.

I say there's already a Billiards table next to the Genesis.

No, no, no, no, just over here.

It's even better.

But it's on the TV.

All right.

What is our podcast, Griffin?

Our podcast is called blank check with Griffin and David.

I am Griffin.

I'm David.

And it's in the way that we use it.

That's right.

It's a podcast about the photography's directors who have massive success early on in

their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy, passion

projects they want.

And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce.

Maybe this is the film that is derisively thought of as his purest paycheck gig.

That is sort of the weird legacy of this movie within his career.

We were both arguing that's kind of bullshit, but it certainly got hit with that at the

time.

Must admit though, it is the guarantor that allows him to immediately then make last

temptation of Christ.

And it's either those movies career happen in that way.

If not for this, it's table versus careers, the right way to play.

It just it right.

His career is in trouble and he takes a gig.

He does a fucking great job with it.

It doesn't feel dispatched.

It wins Oscar.

It makes my life down the middle.

Right.

And it's so well made.

In the lexicon of blank check, this would be that you say stabilizer.

It's like the guarantor like guarantor is the term we usually use that that's like the

thing that gets you the blank check.

That let's them give you the blank check.

And you can't call last temptation of blank check because that's him being like, I'm

going to spend every penny.

Yes.

Like, but I don't get that much.

You know, we're going to get out of the desk.

Lesson of the house.

Right.

And he's like, if we put a pipe of fire, that'll be a promise to make right fear.

Well, you let me do this.

But that movie was so risky and he tries to do it for so long.

Like his blank check is gangs of New York.

Yes.

That is his true.

Like, I really, this nonfiction book about Bowery gangsters.

Can I have 100 million dollars in the New York?

New York, New York is also the first blank check.

That's the first of all blank check.

Right.

And I would say basically post gangs in New York, most of his 21st century work is blank

check.

He does gangs of New York is the most.

Oh, no, 100%.

Right.

But then I think he just enters a phase where it's like, here's the deal.

If you want to make a marketing movie, unless it's silence, unless he's back to last

temptation, I know this is so risky that I got to make the smallest version of it possible.

He's like, I want a nine month shoot and a hundred and fifty million dollars.

Yeah.

And then he also gets, I guess, could you the language, you to use the language of it?

That's the departed comes along and he does the run with decaprio.

It's like, well, I have, I have this guy co-signing the lease.

Exactly.

But stabilize was a term we haven't used before.

And you're right.

Let's add it to the lexicon because it is a thing that's, sometimes we'll talk about

a comeback film.

But I think getting his credit limit back up to the 700s.

Right.

It was like 492.

The greatest of the lost arc as a comeback post 1941 is a pure like he bottomed out and

then he struck gold as hard as you possibly could.

This is just like everything is kind of safe again.

You know, he still has to like put a lot on the line to make last temptation.

But notably, this was his one movie where he was like, I'm coming in under schedule, under

budget to prove a point.

You know, I looked on Reddit.

Our money is generally agreed to be the first legacy sequel.

Some people are like, just return to Oz count.

It's the year before.

I'm like, not really like because it's not, I mean, yes, it has the characters, but like,

it's too weird and it's too weird.

You're not repeating the same designs.

Obviously, not repeating the same kind of, you know, some people are like, like, same

like an algorithm.

Don of the dead kind of counts because it was a long like wait between the movies that

like they don't have the same characters.

It's just the sequel.

Yeah.

And this like the tagline for this movie was the hustler capital H hustler, right?

He's not what he used to be, but he has the next best thing a kid who is.

So it's very much like the hustlers here, their friend, the rejected tagline for this

movie was nine ball is rotation pool.

Who's our guest?

Our guest today in person in studio for the first time.

We're very excited and so excited.

Chris Ryan off of well, not by the time this comes out, but you're

you're still kind of coasting off of CR month.

Yeah.

CR month is extending into see your I was going to say it might be a CR decade now.

I hope.

I mean, yeah, I guess why not meet right?

Right?

Why not you everybody?

I was getting to be back kind of.

Yeah, it's your month, but I got to be there.

Yeah, to be there and they got to beat the shelter.

Yes, which was great.

Yeah.

We salute them and thank them for doing that.

I salute them and thank them for doing that and and thank you to Darryl Mori who as

of this recording had just lost his job.

Yeah.

Putting together that team.

So will he like have another NBA job or is this it?

Uh, I wonder whether or not this is two minutes.

This is like did we say the team name?

All the sixers.

The fellow Duffias 76ers and this is their general manager, president who got fired

after the season.

Right.

And I kind of a king of NBA doorkdom who has maybe, you know, become a little

a bit of a fossil.

I think he could do like a very successful podcast if he wanted to do.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Can do that.

Yeah.

But like does he want to run him?

I don't know.

I will call out that this is a mini series on the films of Mark Scorsese.

It's called podcast fellas.

Today we're talking about the color of money.

We were originally trying to.

It felt obvious to get you on master and commander the far side of the world.

And we were like last time we did over zoom, it'd be really nice to do it in person.

Schedules weren't lining up and around the time where it was like, do we just do master

and command over zoom?

Is there a chance you end up coming here?

Like we're in the middle of our March madness thing.

And it looks like it's probably going to shake out to be Tony Scott versus Martin Scorsese.

And you said, well, if that happens, I'm moving to New York and I'm on every episode.

It did kind of feel like you know what?

Let's save it because between those two guys, you're going to have a pick your passionate

about.

And then when it landed on Marty, we said, what are your, you know, and you said like,

obviously I do any of them, but these five are the big ones immediately felt like color

of money just sort of jumps out as being correct.

The best possible episode in a lot of ways.

There is a rewatchables color of money.

I listened to it.

Yes.

You bill in Sean, the big three, you know, it's great.

I don't remember all this.

I'm just not done talking about it.

You know, I was like, I was kind of like with master and commander.

I was like, ooh, this would be fun because I've never actually done it.

I've never actually like, what's that?

I'm not going to rewire.

I guess, maybe eventually it will be and that could have been one because like during

the arm month, I had, I would say 85% curatorial power, you know, or I would, I would be making

the suggestions and then or bill would be making the suggestions and I would pick or

I would.

As Chris for Nolan always says, it's never truly a blank track.

It's collaborative.

You know what I mean?

We all have boss.

They're always conditions.

What were some of the picks?

For C.R.

Month, it was Cicario, sick, Fargo, Cicario, sick, Fargo to live in Dianna LA LA confidential

and I feel nice.

Nice guy.

Nice guys, which I feel like this was weirdly like a bunch of LA movies, which I didn't

intention intentionally to.

Yeah, it's true.

You didn't do like an East Coast movie, but it was a very cool month to be able to just

be like, fuck, they shot that right there.

Right.

Right.

It's become a less frequent occurrence as the years have gone on just because our schedule

is, has too many masters to serve, but Ben, we, we a lot, a Ben's choice.

Oh, every one of them.

A lot.

It used to be sort of a palette cleanser between a series, but kind of our closest equivalent.

But that if you want to just tell Chris some of the Ben's choice can and here it,

Latch, bang under siege to.

Yes.

Has never seen under siege.

Oh, now I have.

I have.

At the time I hadn't.

Not like a sequel.

No.

Really.

Clifford.

Okay.

Not the dog.

What's, what is it then?

The Martin Trupp movie.

Oh, okay.

Have you not seen it?

I have not.

Oh, I'll check it out.

Yeah.

It's worth it.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's basically the most evil for two or like child 12 year old.

It's a child who permits.

Oh, I remember this.

Yeah, I never saw it, but I do remember it.

It's sort of like the omen if it's not supernatural, but the child is played by an adult.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's really fun.

It feels like he possesses a cosmic evil, but he doesn't actually have powers.

Sure.

Right.

Assassin's Creed.

Yep.

Fast-bender one.

Yeah.

I'm not aware of another.

Yeah.

Similarly, a movie Ben loves despite.

I mean, the British Assassin's Creed.

The original one.

Okay.

No, not the old one.

David, don't talk for a while.

Similarly Ben had never played a second of any Assassin's Creed game before.

That's interesting.

Choosing a foreign episode, having watched the movie 20 times.

Sure.

And then most recently, edge of tomorrow.

Yeah.

Edge tomorrow is great.

But anyway, I mean, like the I I had not talked about Master Commander before, but I

obviously I have spoken about color money on rewatchables and then in various like forms

of the big picture.

But I still feel like there's chalk on the stick.

I've done like 15 fucking episodes on the Muppet movie while still every year pushing

David to be like, can we do the proper Henson Oz combo series?

And I question like, have I just shot, you know, my load on this?

Have I shared the takes I ever else?

I'm like, every time I watch that movie, I got new thoughts.

Yeah.

It's an endless well.

I'm never going to run out of stuff to say.

And they're very similar movies.

I'm going to Muppet movie.

I'm going to string a little hammock right under the desk for those.

The Muppet movie.

It's a fucking rude joke.

He's going to go on vacation.

I was just fucking leave me in a room along to model.

You won't even notice my swammy to Cambodia.

Another thing about the Swedish chef.

He's not I wouldn't have much to say.

He's not a bullet.

He's falling.

Yeah, fucking right.

Yeah, that's right.

Oh, went to when we went to baseball yesterday.

I was so happy.

We went to baseball as they say.

We went to see the Matt's defeat the Tigers and going tonight too.

You're going tonight.

Yeah.

Subway series.

Got a scene.

Oh, the subway series is starting.

Yeah.

They're Matt Yankees.

I liked that as a kid.

Sure.

It's very rare as a kid rare.

Good hook.

Yeah.

Now case listeners were wondering, you know, was this just a regular sort of night or

day, I should say out at the baseball game?

Why?

Why was I so interested in going?

It was funny that right.

Griffin was like, should we go like a baseball game?

David's son of the Matt's.

We could do it as a team.

One second later, just text like Star Wars day.

I found this.

We're going to this one.

Yeah.

Free bobble head.

We got to go.

Oh, you have the bobble head to show up.

Great.

I think we should also do this.

I don't know.

No one can.

Wow.

Yeah.

Very cool.

Yeah.

I do think we should leave some of this for the Mandalorian.

Yeah.

We'll talk about this.

Yeah.

We'll have happened.

We're just telling Chris.

Yeah.

Very cool.

David.

Yes.

If your daughter designed her own credit card,

what would it have on it?

Probably like rainbows and unicorns and stuff.

Are those the most popular right now?

I mean.

I got another question.

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for your child, Visitor Lincoln Bio.

Oh,

when did you first see this one?

This is some kind of VHS rental and it's like $88.

$89.

$86, how old are you?

$9.

Yeah, you're, yeah.

So a little, but I wouldn't put it past my dad

to have this one.

That was a full year.

And I could see nine year old being you being obsessed

with this movie immediately.

And I have very early memories because it was the 80s

that like I would spend Sundays not in pool halls

but in bars with my dad where he would be like,

here are some quarters to go play video games

in the corner and I'm gonna sit here

for five hours and watch football.

And that's how we both need to go back.

Yeah.

How close are you from being able to do that

with your children?

Pretty far.

Pretty far.

I mean, and also, and I wouldn't like, you know,

it's not like it, but like I, especially in Britain

when I moved there and you would like hang out

with your friends, dads, they'd be like,

we're going to the pub.

Yeah.

I don't want to look like I will be seen.

Try not to inhale too much second hand smoke

and you kids run around.

Like sometimes you go to like a pub that had like a backyard

and be like, just fucking get out of here.

If you want some chips, I'll get you some chips.

Like the, when I saw the movie, even before I understood

any of what I was watching, I understood the accuracy

in which it captured like a certain feeling of those places.

I was going to say, when I tried to imagine

the cartoon child diversion of you,

I imagine you were a little similar to my brother

who if a movie was about sports in any way,

he was 1,000% locked in, especially if it's about like

the actual, the psychology, the milieu, the world,

the business, any of those things,

it didn't matter how mature it was, how dry it was.

He was just like, I, this is a portal into a world

I want to understand.

As I've said before in the show,

his ninth birthday party was making all of his friends

at school watch a VHS of Michael Man's Ali.

And it was his seventh time watching.

He's nine.

So it was like his assassin's creed.

And he's like, it's interesting politically what he's like,

you know, it was just like if there's some prism

of sports through this, that's then like an understanding

of how adults function or history or

talking about this with somebody else,

because I was talking about Excalibur with Paul

who works at Radiance and Transmission, the DVD label.

And we did a part of his podcast called Old Movies.

We were talking about Excalibur and I was like, man,

that time in your life where you're actually just watching

movies entirely based on your own personal passions,

but not movies.

You're like, so if this movie is about a thing that I love,

like King Arthur or baseball or whatever,

then I'll watch the movie no matter how good or bad it is.

And I'll watch the movie 45 times.

But then eventually that turns into I love movies.

So I want the movie itself to be successful in some aesthetic way.

And it's like this, this is right at a turning of the page for me,

like whenever I actually watched it,

and then I've just returned to it over and over again,

just because at any given point in my life,

I'm deeply fascinated by some aspect of it,

whether it's Richard Price or Saisy or Newman or Cruz or whatever.

So it's just always been there.

Is this, do you think this would have been the first Corsese

you saw?

Or say, you know, if you're like 10, 11 years old,

like it's like, you know,

a question.

Like taxi driver raging bull yet, like probably not.

No, and if I did, because like my parents would watch movies

while I was like kind of like upstairs,

and I would come to the landing and sort of peek down the stairs

to see what they're watching.

This is why I remember Miami Vice always the TV show.

So vividly is that that was like, I was not allowed to be there.

To grown up, but but I would watch it from like 30 feet away

on a down angle was my mom with ER and Seinfeld.

The only two TV shows she was.

I'm also ER was like the double barrel.

ER and NYPD blue were the big two.

I was like, all right, out of the room.

And then pretty quickly with the ER, I got to stay in the room

because she was like, I guess it's medical.

It's not it's like you're learning lessons.

Yeah, it's not that lurking.

I'm a doctor.

I said, dirty film critic.

Then instead I watched Ali McBeal with her.

I want to be a lawyer.

They all hang out in a fun office and do songs.

Well, that was that was Ed for us.

We were we were into the bowling alley.

Not the sexy lawyer.

Did your dad take you to screenings?

Yeah.

Well, this was my other question just of the era.

Was your dad ever getting screeners for reviews or was he always going to a pretty robust

like the Philadelphia critics would go see and it would be inquire in the daily news

and the TV critics and you know, the WHY critic and the NPR person.

Back when fucking things were correct.

Yeah, there was like a robust local journalism.

I mean, I was sort of the my my sort of earliest most crystal clear memory of this of being

with him is for Rocky for at a real palace on Chestnut Street in Philly.

And this is the year before Rocky for 85 right?

Yeah.

And him snapping at someone for talking during Rocky for the premiere of it and you'd

be late.

Yeah, please.

Like, this is Rocky for we are in Philadelphia.

There might be some crowd.

Go down the rough and it's just like, I'm watching this.

Yeah.

It's like, can't you put it together?

What's happening here?

I'm watching here.

I was always fascinated by like, especially I feel like talk shows in the 90s where the

host would talk about like, hey, I saw I saw your movie.

The studio sent me a screener.

And I would be like, right, so like David Letterman is watching a new release movie before

it's come out on VHS in bed.

Yeah.

You think he's watching color of money and then just like, newman's here tonight.

That would always be the implication.

And I was always curious about like, what percentage of film critics are being sent these

screeners versus their tongue?

They have to go to the theater.

I don't ever remember they're being in advance tape at my dad's house.

I think it was just a lazy fucking talk show host thing.

Yeah.

I probably didn't see this movie till I was in college and was sort of like embarking

on being like a Scorsese completist or whatever.

I was like, oh, I should watch that one.

I definitely saw the hustler when I was a teenager because my dad loved that.

I saw the hustler in high school as sort of my self-imposed film education.

Right.

I had never seen this movie in full.

I had basically, this was like a Cloverfield monster like watching it.

I was like, I have seen almost every scene of this.

Yeah.

But it was a, oh, I'm watching 20 minutes on cable.

I'm seeing scenes on YouTube kind of thing.

And it's like a big cable move.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I had never truly like sat down, watch it from beginning to end.

Very little of it felt totally new to me.

But the experience of watching it as a whole was.

Yeah.

And I rewatched the hustler and then watched this straight through.

And I would say probably in, there's a long period of time where I watched the first

hour of this a lot.

The first hour of this is like better than Citizen Kane.

And then it goes into the kind of twilight of middle age.

Yeah.

Which is really good.

It's really good.

There was a drop off for me.

We've been talking about this because some of the weird movies have this as well where

we were like a movie that remains excellent.

But the first 45 minutes to an hour feels like hypnotic, like supernaturally powerful.

This is dancing on the edge of a pin.

Like this is the best thing I've ever seen.

And then right.

And then the third actor kind of like, I guess that makes sense that they did that.

But I'm a little less.

The actual hustler by the way sort of has that too where like the opening Minnesota fats

like challenge is half an hour.

There's basically a monocene that is like there's a little cold open of seeing do one

hustle.

And then there's basically half an hour of like one endless night.

That is transfixing.

It's hypnotic.

So the other thing that immediately grabbed me about this movie when I was young, even

if I couldn't finish it or found the second half of it to be like incomprehensible just

because of like what emotional pain is this guy going through as he gets manipulated

by forced whittaker and stuff like it was the language and immediately, immediately responding

in a way like with price and with manate when I was young.

I was like, nobody's taught like, I've never heard people talk like this, but this is

how people talk.

And that's that was always the thing and continues to grab me about it.

I think similarly any movie that introduces its own vocabulary immediately has me leaning

in.

If it's a vocabulary that is real, I get the sense of this is giving me a look into a

world where people talk this way rather than just making up fake like planet names or

whatever, especially the vocabulary of con artists, scams, crimes, it's just cracked

to me.

And I mean, I just, I still remember her saying on the snap, Vincent, you're just being

like, what?

Oh, what will men will say on the snap?

Do or did you ever play a lot of pool?

I did play a fair amount of pool.

I was never that good, although I was what you say.

Yeah, I was just pretending you're drunk.

This is crazy.

I've never done this before.

I'll take any old cubes, but weird luck.

But I got enough of a run in a time in American history where it was pretty routine to have

a pool table in a bar.

And now it is increasingly rare.

That is true.

I can't remember the last time I was at a bar that had a billiard stable.

So I used to, it's so funny that you keep saying billiard stable to me because I'm very

classy.

I'm a classy man.

I used to hang out at two bars that still have pool tables.

Basically for all my 20s, my best friend was in a band and every Saturday, band would

rehearse.

Then I would hang out with them at the bar.

You should just say Jared let with 30 seconds tomorrow.

You don't need to be taking it.

The best friend Molly is the bassist in an art rock band called Thrillington.

I went to some of those concerts with him.

Yeah, great thing.

I was always at a full circle bar in Williamsburg, which I think is still there where you get

free drinks in your birthday.

And buttermilk and park slope, which is still there and has a pool table on a, you know,

slight slant, but you know, it's there.

I would play pool all night.

I'm terrible.

I think objectively, but what's better than fucking rack and some balls of your bro's?

There's also like for most of those bar pool tables, they're like, you know what?

The other side of this is right against the wall.

So don't put yourself in any kind of position where you have to shoot from that side of the

table.

Love it whenever that's when it's like a Friday night and like, you know, someone is

trying to play pool, but it's so packed that you're like just getting hit by a stick when

you're on your way to the bathroom.

Say the circumstances, the setup, the equipment is not ideal, but it's in the way that you

use it.

There's also, I live near a pool hall, like not that far.

Like in park slope, there's O.C.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, which is like a class, yeah.

Yes, a classic dingy ass like basement with like 20 pool tables.

And like I've not been there in years.

The guys who are there are a certain kind of guy and I'm not up to playing pool with

any of them.

They abide by the assassin's greed.

Yeah.

Basically, what's the one near aster place on university?

It might be university billiards or something like that.

Sounds right.

Yeah.

That is the classic architecture of up a relatively narrow staircase.

Amsterdam billiards.

Amsterdam.

And then you're like, how we look at their side of pool tables underneath just a store

front.

And when you go inside, it's like, did Charlie Kaufman direct this?

How is that?

How did you guys find like a full city block of pool tables that go back to this place?

It's like Disney World where the rides are never actually in the building they pretend

the ride isn't.

Yeah.

It's in some weird warehouse to get to the pool tables.

They lower you down underground.

It's also one of those places where like it does not matter what time of day it is.

If you walk up those stairs and look out the window, it's night now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They basically have poker room lighting where it's just like, yeah, man, like whatever

it's okay if you're here at 11 a.m.

It's it's 9 p.m.

I can't say, I don't think I've ever played 9 ball.

I always played 8 ball.

Obviously.

Like what any idiot knows how to play.

I played Snooker in Britain sometimes, but Snooker is incredibly different.

So I was going to ask, yeah, please, they have a different name for pool hall.

Like do they call it like a, I don't know, like a fucking snooker parlor?

You know what?

I think they spelled with a you.

A snookerie.

Do they have snookeries?

Like where is it just there's a snooker table?

Okay.

So this, you guys are doing something that is what Americans do, which they say snooker.

I remember my mom would say snooker.

Like I moved to England where they televised snooker on primetime television.

Like you turn on, I would turn on the TV and she'd be like, are you watching someone

play pool?

And I'm like, it's snooker.

Like it's like, it's fun.

It's cool to watch.

And it has the, is it where they have the little wood like things on the table or is that

something else?

I have no idea with that.

Do you have a bock or a, no, there's like a version of pool that have little like,

things out on the table top.

I remember my uncle had it growing up.

I'll look at it.

I mean, in Britain, you call it a pool parlor of billiard hall, whatever, like you know,

snooker, sure.

I do know snooker, but snooker and cricket remain like, I could watch this for 300 years

and not know the rules.

There's nothing like just Google like Ronnie O'Sullivan doing like a perfect break in

cigarettes.

So cool.

But it's like, it's nine reds and then six or seven colored balls and you have to do red

then color, red then color, red then color, and then you have to pocket all of the colors

in a specific order.

It's like very complex and it's all about like snookering someone is putting the ball

where the other player is going to be fucked.

That sounds like some vanhemers late teaching by billiards bullshit.

Two and one of my favorite comedy sketches.

I think one of the most ingenious parts of color of buddy is actually like Scorsese.

He sets up nine ball pretty well.

You're like, yeah, you know what?

I get it.

You know, I broadly understand.

Why not?

Yeah.

And then it's four TV and that they move fast and they play a lot of games and you can

get lucky.

No, it's true.

It's all so good at not bothering you at all with like details about it without, right,

like ignoring it.

It's also the second anyone's like, yeah, that's like Scorsese picking up a paycheck.

You're like, do you think he's anything less than thrilled by the potential of how to

shoot this game?

Because this is not just like flash style over substance shit.

He's got like, you know, Paul Newman and a Richard Price script.

But I feel he is as cinematic.

We can price it first script.

That's wild.

You know, kind of like, Hey, this celebrated novelist is writing a screenplay.

Like, yeah, it was like a big deal.

You just feel him like rubbing his hands together and going like, Oh, shit.

On the impact of the cue hitting the ball, I could move the camera from here to here.

And it's all like you have found a way to make this game feel esthetic.

The, the, I mean, we'll talk about the movie, but like the crash zoom when like, when Newman

breaks and you're just like, Oh, Martin Scorsese loves cocaine.

Like, you know, like, like, it's just like Martin Scorsese who I don't even know where

he, but like, he's like, he understands like, you're just like, Newman's like, Oh, shit.

I think this is the greatest feeling in the world I forgot.

Like, with the way it like just jumps on his face when he finally picks up a cue again.

I think he's kicked it by his way.

Yeah, but of course, he's like, I know how I would feel if someone like gave me a line.

He's basically making a movie as he's just put his vince to bed.

And just trying to be in his fast eddie.

I just sell liquor.

I'm going to open the dossier.

Martin Scorsese, and I tell you guys a little bit.

I do want to tell you the right before this movie, he did direct an episode of Steven

Spielberg's amazing stories called Mirror Mirror.

We will be covering that on picture.

Uh, I don't know much about it.

Have you seen?

I've only seen the title card that says directed by Martin Scorsese and people being like,

we used to do great things with television.

I mean, I was going to say pretty good title card.

Yeah.

To put on on anything.

A sign of quality.

Ben has just kind of like a horror thing.

Texted us a photo of a billiards tape.

It's called bumper pool.

Bumper pool.

Oh, it looks like a fucking pinball table.

Yeah, this looks very complicated.

I will say.

And it was like a thing where I like, I would have loved to have played when I was at my

own ghost house, but I was like, I don't know what this is.

I don't know how to play this.

But I that's what I thought Snooker was.

Anyway, it's 24 minute television film six day shoot.

He didn't have final cut.

So I don't know that he really enjoyed it, but it was his first ever horror movie or horror

thing.

And he loves like, you know, Val Lutin.

He loves like Mario Bava.

Obviously he's very into like Roninburg.

Like he's into horror.

It's funny that he never shut her islands.

Shut her islands the closest.

Shut her island is his cape fierce pretty hard.

Yeah.

Both of those I would I would still fundamentally call thrillers.

Shut her island is definitely the closest.

Shut her island.

He's really using he's the horror imagery of those.

The touchstones of these guys, right?

And it kind of sounds like this new thing.

And the air as well.

Yeah.

This new what's called it happened at night.

Yeah.

It sounds like you have a touch of that.

Right.

I hope so.

That means it's going to be a little rip-back.

I know you're whatever.

Right.

Yeah.

The only time we ever worked with Michael came in.

I don't know why I'm talking about this.

It's not important.

We will cover it on Patreon.

Right.

Exactly.

Or we'll cover it right after this.

It's happening.

He's in a film that I watched relatively recently because I'm watching a lot of 1986

movies for a big picture draft that may or may not ever have.

Yes.

And on a day, the big picture.

He is kind of like the third or fourth most important character in round midnight.

The, oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He is like when Dexter Gordon comes to New York, the fast-talking like guy who's like,

okay, let me take you to the bars.

You know, like I'll take you to your concept, Mr. Dexter Gordon.

Chris, we saw the Mandalorian in Grogu last night.

We just went to meet up with him at a bar.

And how is Dexter Gordon in it?

Yeah.

Scorsese is so good in it.

It's in.

It actually is crazy.

How soon did he?

But he came in and told me that Scorsese is in it.

And for like a full minute, I was like, so Martin Scorsese just walks into the bar in

the Mandalorian and starts doing Martin Scorsese.

I didn't know he was doing the voice of a, of an alien.

Yes.

And I don't know if it's Mocap.

I don't think they do much Mocap in these movies.

But I will say the creature, they really got his mannerisms down.

Yeah.

You do feel like you're seeing it's true representation of Scorsese on screen.

And the performance is so good.

And I would say basically everyone else in the movie is so wooden.

And so it's so out of it.

Dripping our armrests being like, holy shit, he's so fucking locked.

The other one is good.

It's Stephen McKinley Henderson.

He is.

He's also great as another alien.

Yes.

But it is this thing.

And I felt the same way watching his, his arc on the studio last season where I'm like,

he's arguably the greatest living American filmmaker.

I want to make as many movies as he can with his remaining years, which hopefully are decades

ahead of us.

I would love if he got some more acting roles in there as well.

I am always so happy any time he is acting in something.

He is always so fucking good.

I don't want him to be like, you know what?

It's fun being on the frinking.

I'll just do that.

No.

I'm making films.

No.

But I love him to do more one, two scene things.

Yeah.

Well, around midnight's example that he had been in Paris.

He was scouting locations for last temptation, like, you know, of prior version of it.

And like was like hanging out with Bertrand Tevelle, the guy, you know, the director,

links him with Erwin Winkler, his producer.

Of course, his, and his basically like, you know, he wants to make a film set in New

York, blah, blah, blah.

And Bertrand is like, you will have to play the owner of the club, you know, like when

I do this.

And so that is why he's in that film.

He's very good.

Last temptation obviously is Corsese's 80s mountain.

Why is he trying to climb?

Yeah.

You know, and he's trying to do it in the early 80s.

It fails.

And so he makes after hours as a sort of pivot out of that of like, I'll just do something.

After hours is kind of an interesting.

It's like a partial reset movie where he just needed to show that he could make something

that wasn't a disaster.

And he needs to like get back on the horse.

Yes.

And not just like curl up in a bottle movie.

Right.

It rules.

Yes.

But it was a cheap movie.

It was made independently.

Warner Brothers releases it.

It does okay.

He sort of back in like a safety zone without necessarily the studios trusting that they could

give him a lot of resources and that he would use it responsibly.

That is also another movie, which is somehow not made on cocaine.

Yeah.

Whereas just, but it is, it is the sense memory of cocaine for me.

It's it.

Yeah.

It's both of these movies feel like if I, if I'm going to truly not touch that shit anymore,

it will be the central preoccupation of my art.

I need to like work through what it means to my guide of everything I do.

I would say like through good fellas, right?

Like the last time Tati's the interruption, but he's like, I need to cinematically say

goodbye to this.

Yeah, it really culminates with the helicopters above every right.

And then it's like goodbye to cocaine.

I know I think I'm good.

Yeah.

I think Casino's got got some coke and it's blood.

Yeah.

But I would not say Casino is like a movie where, you know, cocaine is a main character

in the same way.

For sure.

It's don't I think you're going to remember when you rewatch.

Yeah.

Casino, some other movies he was linked to around them, Dick Tracy.

Right.

We'll talk about this whenever we do Warren Beatty, but he was a contender to direct with

Warren starring, I believe.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Winters tail, which has eventually turned into one of the oddest movies ever made.

But at the time, yes, yeah, at the time is like a hot new book.

He's attached to that.

But Mark Helperin, I believe is the novelist, a bio a biopic of Gershwin written by Paul

Schrader, which has never come to pass.

I mean, can you imagine an adaptation of the Elmore Leonard novel La Brava that Dustin

Hoffman wanted to make.

I've never read La Brava.

I think that's one of the Detroit ones.

So I think that's a Detroit crime one.

No, no, I'm not.

No, it's like Joe La Brava, former Secret Service agent.

Oh, is he in Florida taking pictures?

He gets involved with a former movie star.

Yeah, that's for sure.

I've never, yeah.

Hoffman, you know, who's famously like the most gigantic pain in the ass in the world

is trying to make an into movie for years.

It ends up a cannon.

Yeah, it never happens.

Life's too short to work with Dustin Hoffman was a oft repeated phrase in Hollywood for

decades.

Now, color money, Michael Ovitz, guys heard of him speaking of guys with normal energy,

but for agent who founded CAA, one of his biggest clients is Paul Newman.

And he's, you know, trying to win his guy an Oscar, Paul Newman watches Raging Bull on,

I guess, Ovitz's recommendation and says like, that's one of the best things I've ever

seen.

I know if it's just like, why don't you fucking make a movie with Marty?

Like, let's call out another connection.

Jake Lamatta is in the hustler as a bartender.

Oh, shit.

Sure.

The real Jake Lamatta.

So that's a one of the reasons the Paul Newman is leaning in and watching that movie is

like, you know, oh, I'm interested.

I knew Jake Lamatta.

Yeah, I interface with this fucking guy and he's seeing like, man, Squarespace, he got

him right and is connecting those dots.

There's also, you know, Ovitz was, Squarespace, he's neighbor for a long time.

I think he lived under.

He, and he'd shared an office with Harry Oflin who is, Squarespace, he's agent back in

the 70s.

Yeah.

So he's always been into him.

But like, Ovitz lived near Squarespace, he'd during Squarespace and Robbie Robertson

staying up all night watching horror movies when they're.

Yes.

I know.

It's just had like a big funnel and he would suck the Coke fumes from the next door

with.

I don't know if it's in the dossier here, but it sounds like Ovitz when he was like young

and getting started.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, was living adjacent to Squarespace, in that time, and that Squarespace, he would like

loan him movies, show him movies, bring him upstairs to show him a VHS that there was

a little bit of cinematic education.

But this is an example of what Ovitz was sort of smart about.

It's like, Newman's like, I'd like to work with Marty.

Sure.

And Ovitz is like, write him a letter.

It's going to mean a lot.

And Paul Newman's like, what?

And he's like, right, just trust me.

Write him a letter saying you admire him.

He envires you.

Paul Newman's like, he does.

And he's like, yeah, sure.

Like, you know, like, convincing to do this drops the letter personally to Marty.

Like, gives him a person.

And he says, like, Squarespace, he like, opens the letter and like, it lights up.

Even though it is a, it is addressed to Michael Scorsese.

But he forgives that.

Yeah.

He's still charmed.

And you know, like, you know, I, my guest is sort of like, Ovitz is like, I know he's

an artist.

He's probably not going to want to do like a commercial thing.

So I'm going to try and like, nudge him towards something commercial.

Can I do a minute or two on Ovitz quickly?

Because we talked about him before.

But I think this movie is a good, this is a big Ovitz project.

So for people don't know, Michael Ovitz was one of the founders of CAA, right?

And he basically becomes the archetype of the modern agent.

And part of that is sort of being an agent who also functions a little bit more like a

manager.

And I think the genius of what he did and, you know, normal guy in our parlance, but

to give credit to what he did successfully.

And it had certain negative entail effects on the industry.

It was sort of like he recognized a golf in the collapse of the studio system that used

to be invested in people's careers.

It would have a director or an actor under contract.

And they would be managing them long term, not just thinking about how do I get him a

gig.

But like, what's the arc we're building here?

What's the next era we want to go into?

That falls apart, artists get their own independence.

But suddenly it's like, if you're Warren Beatty and you got really good taste and you're

marked and you're driving everything and you have that level of power, you're fine.

You just need an agent to fucking make your contracts, close your deals.

But some people don't have the same kind of vision.

And Ovets is like, this is what we're going to build our business on is that we are thinking

long term.

It is a career business.

It's not a gig to gig business.

And the other part of it is the beginning of like super packaging, right?

And that's what this movie is a great example of of just like, oh, fuck.

If I can put like three insane elements together on paper and then go to the studios and

say, like, fuck you, you have five minutes to decide this is a bidding war.

It starts to change how it's about pool.

Nobody's happy.

Right.

Five minutes to decide.

His famous example of this is that he puts together like ghost busters and goes to all

of the studios and is like, like, it's on everyone's table.

You know, like start bidding.

Here's everything.

It's like the two funniest men in America from the director of stripes and the other guy

from stripes is co-writing it and he's in it.

And we're going to have special effects.

And slimer.

Right.

Slimer's a board.

Slimer's tough.

Yeah.

Slimer is tough to get.

Slimer's offer only.

He was a CAA client.

But Slimer also a huge code problem.

It's funny.

It's funny that you said that huge slime problem.

There was this Ovets dance of him knowing that Scorsese was such an artistically driven man

to drop my one story I have of working on vinyl where I had this incredible extent of

conversation with Scorsese that I sort of lucked into where he was talking fairly

vulnerability about the criticism of him becoming a paycheck guy that he was like still very

sensitive about the criticisms of his later period and the idea that he doesn't care

or does things for money now.

And he was like I very earnestly like every movie I've made I deeply care about.

And like some of them I made more money on and some of them are more passionate to me

and some things I developed in this and that.

But I like never made a movie just for money.

And you know he said to me I remember Michael Vitt's coming up to me at a party.

I'm trying to think what the timeline of this would have been.

It must have been pre after hours.

Right.

Well, it's post raging bull, but I don't know.

Sometime in this there are raging bull king of comedy.

Michael Vitt's comes up to him at a post-screening party or post premiere party for one of his

movies and says you know Marty there is a way to make money doing this.

I mean look, and he said that was exactly.

Exactly.

Align he used to lure him into color of money and there was sort of the dance of him being

like I'm not going to do something just for money.

He's like, but there's a way to do both.

There is a way to make a movie the way you want to with like incredible assets like Paul

Newman and also get paid not lose your house trying to get it made and have it be commercially

successful, which will ultimately speaking to this long term career vision help you get

shit like last temptation or gangs in New York made.

They're not going to give you that if you keep making shit like Kings King of Comedy.

Yeah, I'm sure also I mean, it appeals to two sides of his sensibility.

He's at once like I have archived a neo-realist Serbian movie that eight people have seen

and he's also like Humphrey Bogart.

Love him.

Like let's make like movie stars are awesome and Nali would his great.

So it's the best about him.

Yeah.

And so many of the filmmakers he grew up loving had careers like that.

David.

Yes.

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1984 Walter Tevis publishes the color of money, sequel to his novel The Hustler.

He dies a lung cancer just a year later.

Paul Newman is into it because he feels differently about fast-eddy, basically than any other

party's played.

And he's like, and he's not complete at the end of a hustler.

It's not like Butch Cassidy or whatever.

Like, I often wondered about what he would be doing now.

Like it's not like a thing where like his story just because obviously the hustler ends

with him basically like in a hole.

I don't know if this is controversial to say, but upon rewatching it, I think this is

the best of the young Newman performances.

I know he's incredible in Butch Cassidy and Cool Handlewik and whatever, but like it

does feel like the hustler gets something very unique.

Yeah, my favorite's HUD.

It's HUD.

I mean, it's like 100%.

Yeah, it's like the best screen performance of all time.

He's really fucking astonishing in hustling.

Yeah, he's awesome.

He's awesome.

He's so awesome.

Yeah.

And it's great because he's so hot and he's so charming and he plays such assholes in

these movies.

And it sure does.

You know, it's like he actually like whatever he saw when he looked in the mirror.

Yeah, so divorced from what everybody sees when they look on screen.

It's fascinating because it does feel like there are, there are actors like him who want

to play unlikable because they feel burdened by their charisma, you know, or the accessibility

they have to people's interests.

Right, ugly me up or make me scarier.

Yeah.

And it feels performative and it feels hollow or it feels kind of like self punishment.

So punch hard.

Yeah.

And with him, it feels like a genuine, not like a genuine reflection of a self hatred,

but there is a very honest probing into the darkest sides of the psyche that don't feel

stunty.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in some ways, maybe a perfect foil or a perfect partner for Scorsese because their

Newman's like, look, like I flash the baby blues and everybody comes to the movie, but

then they get confronted with the like the drags of the human condition.

And Scorsese is like, I make camera move fast, but we're going to, we're going to actually

get in.

Yeah.

To some pretty dark stuff here.

So it's like, it's the perfect medicine and sugar, right?

Yeah.

That's the other thing that like Newman's seeing and raging bowl of like, man, this guy's

really good at dissecting what makes men terrible.

He really gets it.

He's not trying away from that.

Um, okay.

So the novel, right, he's into it.

Elvis is given a shot at writing a screenplay.

He writes a draft another writer does another draft.

No name for that one.

Um, I've never read any.

I didn't, I didn't read color of money.

The novel, the tevvist novel.

I don't think I don't know if the screenplay is around anywhere.

But the reporting on the screenplay is like, it's basically a two-hander with fats and

food.

Right.

And it's more going by the book.

Right.

It's like rocky to.

Yeah.

It's like we're old now and it's Florida, but like we're doing cable TV like exhibitions,

but then we're also hustling each other. It's more like Creed too.

Newman still remembers Scorsese, loved raging bull. Scorsese has just finished on after hours

and Paul calls him and is like, do you want to do a sequel to the hustler? Obviously like

Scorsese is like, my taste is not in sequels, but I do love Paul Newman.

Like, I mean, how do you? It's like the president calling you being like, I need you to be the

secretary of state or whatever. Also, it's fucking Paul Newman. This held the record for a long time

of the biggest gap between sequel and original film. As you said, there was the return to Oz thing

that doesn't really count. And now we get more and more like your your Sean legacy is in your

Top Gun Mavericks, where it's just casually fucking right, 37 40 years later, whatever the

fuck it is, you know, Blade Runner, obviously the Star Wars sequels. At this time, I think that

already sounded novel and different novel. It's novel. It's novel for sure, but there's also back

10 sequels are so dry. Right. Godfather to God. Only one that basically is taken seriously.

Yeah. So Newman sits down with him and he's like, Eddie reminds me of, you know,

characters you've dealt with, I feel like we should hear more from him. I've got a script.

Scorsese is intrigued. He does not like the script because it is a literal sequel. Like, you

know, basically, like it even had like, it was supposed to start with like stuff from the

hustle. I think it starts with like a 10 or 12 minute like or 12 page like, this is from the

hustler. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, they let the writer who wrote this script, the

unnamed writer, one more draft that still doesn't they don't like it. He doesn't really like

the novel either. So then he's basically like, can we just drop the novel? We'll keep the title,

but otherwise, can we just like do something? This is the power of the package is you don't go like,

well, sorry, you don't like the script. Thanks for considering this film. Let's find a new director.

You go, no, the selling point here is, of course, Saisy makes the hustler sequel. Yes. So,

let's figure out the version he wants to make. So Richard Price, who had written these books like

The Wanderers and Blood Brothers and seeing our like prices sort of like, what sort of early

is in his career? But yeah, like he's written like four books. And then this marks his departure

from novels to do screenplays until he comes back to right clockers, which clockers is so good.

Lush life is like the novel. And he worked on the wire later in life and all that. He became

such a luminary. He'd never written a screenplay that had been produced. He'd done some, you know,

he'd done some stuff in Hollywood. He was like a little hung up on a novel, I guess. And obviously,

you make a lot more money writing movies than you do writing novels that may or may not get published.

Yes. I mean, it's a I rewatch Barton think again recently because it was playing at the Paris with

Tattaro doing a Q&A. And I, you know, it's it just made me think about like, right, that's how Hollywood

used to run is they would just go to all great novelists and playwrights and go like, look,

if sitting in office, you're going to pay a lot more and then you can go back and write your little

things. And now it feels like they are the exceptions to the rule. There are the couple you can call

out where you're like, that guy kind of successfully made the leap. Yeah, who's like the most recent

person? I mean, Gillian Flynn kind of did that. Yeah. That's a good example for sure. I mean, like

many off is that. Yeah. It sort of gotten like he did like two novels and was like forget it.

Yeah. So Newman's course, as he in price, sit down and call it in Malibu. This is how price describes

it. Me and Marty, the two New York guys were on the beach. Marty sitting there with his jacket in his

nasal spray. I'm smoking a cigarette hunched over coughing. Newman comes out all tanned up. Mr.

Ciensky eaten a grapefruit. We were two clowns with the Hollywood platinum. And then we just hammered

out a plot line like, you know, in one day, essentially like what's fucking Eddie doing now? The novel,

he like hooks up with a professor. It's like a Roman weird like they open an antique store. Right.

Seriously, the antique store gets burned down. Sorry for spoiling this novel. Yeah.

So like so Scorsese is basically like it's not like he's just been doing nothing. He's just gotten

like tougher and meaner to survive or whatever. Like that's kind of, you know, but he needs to

sort of reeducate himself to play again. Like that's that's you know the age of 52. He's, you know,

blah, blah, blah. And first time in Nepal, Newman asked him why this guy would start playing pool

again in his 50s. I said to Paul, why do you race if you don't win every time? Paul

comes and loves a fucking, you know, race car, right? And Newman just sort of looks at him and

goes like, that's the picture. And like the fucking great stuff. You know,

because I mean that it's like Paul, you're the hottest man alive. Everybody loves your

lemonade. Right. Why do you also go to like limon and drive a car for it? Right. Right.

Are you not satisfied? And he's like, I don't know. There's something in me. Got a happy marriage.

You basically have an uninterrupted decades long, like minted movie star streak. You still keep

on getting in these crazy cars. Right. Yeah. The first draft comes in too dark. Newman's like,

I think this is too, you do you have made him a nightmare piece of shit? Yeah. He fell

in the dragged up to Golgotha. Wait a second. So they're like, look, we're making a star vehicle.

The way, uh, Scorsese puts us like, we're making a suit for the man, you know, it's got to come

out of Paul Newman. Like you can't just like, right, like all this like piece of shit dialogue.

Like you have to imagine like Paul Newman will be saying this. Like there needs to be more like

class. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, they calibrate it and all that. And it's interesting that like

cruise is not mentioned for a while. It's like the most fascinating thing about reading about the

making of this movie is this guy's in top gun. The same like it comes out what four or five months

earlier. Yeah. So they hit the lottery in that sense. Right. He is not in any way doing Tom cruise

things where he's like, it's important that this happens to my character. And it's important.

Like that's all right, which is all you hear might be the last movie where that happened.

And it's funny because like his rep is like after this is like, oh, he wants to work with

obviously, do all. Yeah. All these big right. He wants to work with big. And you figure he's the one

who's like, Paul, let's get Marty, you know, or whatever. Like he's not. He comes in later. Obviously,

you know, risky business was big and predated this. But it is fascinating that I think of this

movie in his arc as being like, this is him grabbing the torch and being like, I'm on the run now.

Here we go. I'm racing towards the fucking Olympics. And this felt like the last time he was

just like hired to do something. I watched he was on Graham Norton during the pandemic.

Like because I watched the clip and they were all sitting very far apart. And so he told this story

about doing what sounds like the aftermath of the werewolves of London scene where he's outside

of the car. And he's freezing the coat anecdote. And the way he tells it, it's not like. And then,

of course, Paul and I became best friends after I mean, I know that they were close, but it sounds

like newman's like a kid, you know, like, hey, but it's just like you're the supporting actor.

You know, Tom Cruise, the most controlled man in the world has 10 anecdotes he will share. There

are 10 personal things he will say, right? And one of them, which I feel like he only started

sharing in the last 10 years because I've seen him do in a couple other places. I know he did it

on the fucking nervous podcast, but the anecdotes that they're filming this thing outside and they

call cut and immediately Paul Newman has like a pa come over and put a really warm. He's gonna

electrocute her. Yeah, right. And and Tom Cruise is like rubbing his arms and like freezing. And

Paul Newman says something like 54 pictures, kid. Basically implying like I've learned how to make

movies. I know what I need. And that Tom Cruise looks at it as this moment of like that's what I'm

working towards. Not just the quality of the movies and the consistency of the run, but to understand

how to do this as a job, you know, and know every angle of what I need to be on top of. Yeah, because

he does his wardrobe fitting in the summer. So he's like, it'll be cool if I'm wearing a leather

jacket and a t-shirt. And it's like, they're shooting in Chicago. It's going to be so hot.

The text that the story is that Paul Newman has the level of experience where he can do the

math on every one of these things. He's not just thinking creatively. He's also going like,

well, when is the scene going to film? And that's an exterior and this and that. And I feel like

Richard, I think it would be good if I was inside the Cadillac for that night.

One logically, that feels like the last story he shares in which there is anything aspirational

in the Tom Cruise persona. When he talks about anything he worked on after that, it is just like,

I sat at the table and I said, this is what we need to do, right? He tells the stories that are like,

I was a little boy and I would repeat movie dialogue while staring at the ceiling while my

family life was depressing. And then there's, I look at Paul Newman and I go, this is the guy I want

to be. And after that, he is self-actualized. It is fascinating that I was saying to you, he must have

shot this before Top Gun because he still looks kind of funky in this. But he shoots Top Gun first,

then shoots this and then has to go back and do reshoots for Top Gun. There's the scene where he's

coming out of the shower in Top Gun. And that's because they had to wet his hair because he had

grown it out the sky. He's like kind of wavy with, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they shoot the love scene in

like total shadow for the same reason. Exactly. There's something like that. But it's like he

doesn't seem to know what Top Gun is about to do for him. No, no, not on the way. Of course, as he puts

this is like we're getting a little bit of money because of risky business. He's not an

unfamous person. This casting is closer to hiring Miles Teller for Top Gun because you're like,

he was good in Whiplash. Yeah, yeah, not like this is clearly the guy. Fox, they get cruise aboard.

Fox turns it down. Columbia turns it down. This is kind of crazy given the like the package or whatever.

Katzenberg and Eisner Disney grab it. Put it on, you know, it's going to be a touch. They've

just taken over there after leaving Paramount, but they make a Newman salary insurance against

Corsese going over budget. So like, of course, as he has such a reputation post New York, New York

and such that they're like even with all this, you know, even with hours being cheap. And yeah,

yeah. So he's got the big stars. It's his first time he says working with a movie star. Like,

it's not like De Niro where like it's his friend. Like, right. It's different when it's a movie star.

You like forward. Who's like your brother? He puts it is like, right. Like I'm looking at a face

that I've been looking at since I was 12. There's a thousand movies on his face. Uh, Newman loves Corsese.

Says he's got an incredible eye. He's on you like a hawk. You can't do like your mannerisms with

around him. You know what I mean? Like he's like, uh, he's immediately like, don't do that. You

know, like, or whatever. And Newman's like, right, can't be lazy or what I can't like do whatever

the the usual shit is. I also say the best directions Corsese gave him was, uh, don't try to be funny.

Right. Sure. Yeah. As an overall. And he was just like, that's like a really smart mature direction.

Um, another right cruise connection, you know, Michael Chapman who is, of course,

says he's cinematographer for like raging bull and stuff, directed all the right moves.

So that was another reason Corsese had his eye on crew. Yeah. Um, uh, obviously everyone does

throw him pool playing, you know, because you know, they got to do it. And obviously

cruise gets so into it. I was going to say it is part of the cruise mythology. I feel like this

is the first time you hear about him going turbo on rap. The jump fall shot is the one that

an X. That's the one that he was like, I'm sure you could make this take days, but it'll be like

nine days to get one shot. But it also feels like that's the thing he regrets for the rest of his

career. I couldn't get that. I couldn't done it. I couldn't figure it out. I had more in me. I

couldn't done it. Um, you know, uh, Marty's parents are with him. I don't really,

did Marty's parents just kind of travel around with him? They shot this movie in Chicago. Yeah.

But I guess they're just there. Yeah. Uh, cruise like has dinner with them every night. You know,

he really loves Marty. Yeah. I mean, that's just what he's like sauce. Uh,

good. And they rehearsed the whole thing like newman's very into rehearsals. They block all the

scenes out. They do like tons and tons of rehearsals basically like word for word. So they're

incredibly prepared. Uh, and so they shot for like 10 weeks and they did it like, you know,

no problem. They didn't go over budget or time. It was under. It was under on both. And it's

the only 13 million under 14.5. It's the only time he did that in his career. And it felt like

needed to do that to prove a point. Right. Um, they wanted to shoot in New York, but all the kind

of classic interesting foolholes were kind of gone. Uh, Toronto, you know, cheap city, obviously,

but like way too clean is basically how they put it. Um, and so they end up in Chicago.

They use uh, St. Paul's billiards. Chris is billiards. Chris is billions.

Chris is billions. Chicago's finest. The North Center Bowl. Uh, this famous old barf its

Gerald's, which I feel like is like still kind of a classic place that they they turned that into

a pool room. There's so many. I mean, there's that place. What's it? That storefront that's like

Lincoln, what you know, like that's still there. Um, they, and they, they do go to Atlantic

City for one day, uh, to shoot the big tournament with all the, uh, you know, they shoot any of

this tournament stuff on stages or was that what they staged most of it in Chicago's Navy peer?

Like like, but they did some, you know, kind of like establishing. There's a, uh, strange

relationship because this movie is kind of a road movie. Yeah. Because they're shooting it all

in Chicago. You're kind of like, are they traveling from the North side of Chicago to the South

side of Chicago? Like driving. Um, but I always just in my mind, imagine it being like Cleveland,

Detroit, you know, Chicago one more stop at Atlantic City, like Philly Atlantic City or something

like that. This is the second ballhouse movie. Ballhouse shot after hours. JJ editorializing here,

our researcher says, best, best DP that, of course, has he ever worked with. I think that's

probably true. Yeah, but also JJ your fire. We don't pay you for your opinions. Um, but, uh, you

know, there's a lot of stuff here about, you know, the kind of bounce lights he used. I'm not going

to go into all of this. Come on. What do they call the, um, the, when they, the cameras that could

go right behind a, uh, cue ball or a pool ball? I, I, I mean, they, I don't know, but I love all that

cameras. Oh, yeah. Great name. There you go. Uh, they move the camera a lot. Like ballhouse is like,

I think out of every, like seven out of every 10 shots, the cameras moving, like it's a tracking shot

or moving shot or something. Like Marty loves to move the camera. I love to move the camera.

Like some of the camera. And you're playing pool, which is just, it is a game where you just think

about people just kind of like rotating around the table constantly, right? You know what I mean?

There is a movement to it. But he's doing like all the Spielberg, uh, like coverage with camera

movement. So it'll be like, push in Vince, pan, Mozel, back to Vince, tilt down to the pool cue,

tilt up to Mozel. And you know what I mean? And it's like, oh, that's like seven shots, but you just

did it with movement, movement, which I think that's part of the under schedule, under budget thing,

right? That's always been a famous Spielberg thing that he's so forged in the failure of 1941,

right? That he adopts. So, that's right. Right. Four radars of just like, I'm going to figure out

on the day, what's the quickest, cleanest, smartest way to do this. Um, and then he holds himself to

that standard for the rest of his career. Scorsese obviously does not, but it does feel like he

strategically knows I got to figure out a way to compress this to make everyone trust me again.

But those more thing kind of master shots are just exquisite. It also, we've talked about,

maybe it has been since Ali, but how there's such a disproportionate amount of great boxing

movies to other sports. It's such a cinematic sport. Part of it is that it's so contained. And

there's so few things you have to track. And it's in such a manageable, visual space. I think,

I'm sure we've talked about extensively on a raging bull episode, but Billiards is like an even

tinier version of that. You know, it's basically a wide screen frame. And you're just like, it's

bright colors. It's crazy that actually the hustler works as well as it does in black and white.

It's such a strange sports movie. This one because first of all, I think I take it for granted that,

you know, people would have necessarily grasped at any given moment where they are in terms of the

scale, the scales of who's winning and who's losing in a match. Because for one thing,

some of the times they're intentionally losing. Sometimes they're winning to set up the fact that

they might lose. It's rotation pool. So it's like sometimes they're kicking ass, but then a guy is like,

it's my turn. You know, like I get to come in boxing is so simple. It's like you can have never seen

boxing before. I'd be like, I get it. They punch each other until one guy falls down. Right. And it's

and it's like pool. And the way he shoots pool, it's like there are oftentimes where I'm like,

I wonder if this is the fifth rack. Yeah. Is it the ninth rack? And like how like how it's so

interesting that he can pull it off without ever being like, I have to stop and explain everything

that's happening here. It's very reliant on the actress performances in that way. Because you

need to look to them as a guide of them playing what's the status of the game right now. And are they

working someone or not? But it also means that basically you just need to depict trekk shots.

You just need to show us things that look impressive or look unimpressive in a basic binary way.

And then it's helpful that like you can do these fucking crazy camera moves, but actually

you're just moving the camera two feet because you're tracking a very small ball in a very

contain space. And a shiny ball moving on felt is really cool. It's really fucking cool. And aren't

the rules of nine ball pretty straightforward. They are. I think there's something to that versus

it being a ball. Yeah. Where it's just like it's very simple. If you get on a run and then you're

able to be the one to get the nine ball in you win. Like it's just yeah. I think a ball is also

pretty simple. A ball is just solid stripes. I like to play one ball that feels like playing

the cleanest attractor. I've just take one ball. Even leave the cue to the side. But they say

you just pick it up with your hand. You drop it into the pocket. They say in the movie that like

nine ball is more action based. It's faster. It's like Texas Holden. It's like the thing you created

to make it feel more like a real sport, not that it's not a real sport. I mean, I've watched

like I said, I've watched televised snooze. I've never really seen televised pool.

Like I'm not really aware of like you clearly are not watching ESPN 2 late enough.

And tonight, two and 90s. I feel like they were built on that. Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't know what

what's the like state of professional pool playing these days. I don't know actually. Like there was

it. I'm not being funny. Like there was a run there where there was. Back when he was being

had less stuff. And when they were just it's bowling and pool after sports centers. Like that's what

we got. But I don't remember the last time I was like, this is the most famous pool play. I was

about to say like who right? Who's the best pool player? Whereas like in I can't I can't run

around yourself and baby like Stephen Hendry. I can name like the greats. Nuclepliers of my childhood.

But I don't know who's good at pool. Like once in a while, you'll see a bowling clip,

which is always fun. Like, you know, some guy me like, that's why I'd go. And you're like, I guess

that guy's like, go. And those guys now all wear like Thanos gloves. Wait. Isn't that just like

a cybernetic arm? Is that fair? Is that allowed? Obviously, there's like the Britain has darts,

which is the funniest televised sport because everyone is morbidly obese. And it's in a giant bar

where every like the whole crowd is just hammered. That honestly though is like maybe the greatest televised.

It's so good. It's watching guys. And it's like, they're all named Ronnie, you know, and

and like people are losing their minds. 180. There's the guy who yells. And the crazy thing about

Snooker is it's always like best of 33. What's the score? And he's like, he's up 11 to seven. And

I'm like, and what does he need? They're like, I don't know, 18. Like it's like, it's such a,

I don't understand who's going to see it in person. You go to Sheffield. It's called the Crucible.

Yeah. The place where they and it's it's crazy. There's a packed crowd watching it. It can't be a

real country. No, I was going to say also, why does it feel like so many British sports are like

durational to prove a point? Like people complain about American baseball. But like, that's what

American baseball, you know what? You know what? We have enough listeners. Someone explain it

because I don't know. The answer is probably like, what do you mean? Like a Snooker game is 20

minutes? Like it has to be that I have no idea. Like I don't know. All I know is I used to watch

when I was a kid, the game show, the big break hosted by Jim Davidson, who later became one of

Britain's more prominent pro Brexit celebrities back in the day, a hilarious light entertainer

that was like a Snooker game show. That's how popular stucer wasn't Britain. Anyway.

Okay. I looked it up. Carlo Biotto of the Philippines won the 2025

Rural Pool Association Nine Ball Championship. He kind of looks like a badass. I kind of like his,

right? Maybe if we ever get a color of money where Vince is the old man, Carlo couldn't be the

vitz. Like do you need to be in good shape to believe good at pool? Uh, it may have to stand a lot.

You got it back over. You get a good back. You need a good back. Do you need like,

you know, some shoulder strength? For sure. Right. You got to give professional video game players

like get worse when they're older. And you're like, really? And it's like, yeah, man, like being young,

like your brain works better. You know where it's like even the thumbs fail. Even fuck this.

Like it is better when you're younger. I know we need to dig into the movie proper. I just

need to pick up this thread that C.R. just dropped because I was thinking this while watching.

Like if Digger doesn't work, just cruise go. It's time to make the Vince legacy.

Well, watching this, it felt really obvious to me that if he can have Newman,

no, but he's the guy. No, I understand. It would just be like, cool to have Newman.

I have the one scene where he's like, kid, you got it. Who would be the young

then casting? I don't know. Youngest teller in Maverick. Yeah. Who is it now? I don't know.

I don't know who it is, but I just was like, of all the legacy, he's talking about doing that.

He really shouldn't do days of. I agree. That's a huge miss. Especially post F1.

There's nothing that there's to be said. There's no room for you here in your two old.

Yep. Is there, yeah, is there another cruise like a sequel that makes it?

The other part of that is that cruise does genuinely love racing. And he said the Paul

Newman's the one who got him into it on while filming this movie. Sounds like the kind of bullshit

he'd say. Have you read the script for Rainman yet? Let's get off the back now.

But it's just also like a bunch of, yeah, many, many, yeah. Oh, he's right. He's, he's had a lot of

kids. Yeah, they have to go collect all the rainmen. It's just such an obvious thing where like

the color of money Oscar feels like shorthand for a kind of gold watch performance.

You know, it becomes the representation for even what, what true grit is of like,

what's the obvious kind of elder statesmen you are looking back on your legacy and sort of like

your movie stardom. We got to give it to this guy, Oscar win. What's your point about him?

Obviously taking a supporting role in being like in some ways third chair on on this movie

compared to Newman and Scorsese. It's not maybe not unique in his films, but it is very,

it's very clear that like Vince is almost the villain of the end of this movie in some ways. And

that the movie frames it as like, this is the problem. This is what we lost culturally. Yeah.

Yes, look at how unseemly these guys are. And then it's like for the first two thirds of the

movies, he's just like regarding Newman. Yeah, he gets mad at him a couple of times, but for the

most part, he's just like, Eddie, you're the man, like just show me the ways of the force. You

know, like, and it's, it's so different from the way he now is so in touch with. I want people

to think this about me at this moment in the movie. You know, and then they have to think this is

going to happen, but they know I'm going to prevail. You know, so the fact that Cruz keeps making

baton past movies where he refuses to pass the baton. You know, obviously there's the whole

renter thing with mission impossible, but then it's also what's fascinating about Maverick is that

it's like, no, I'm not going to die. I'm going to save Miles Teller. The movie ends with me being

like, and I'm still fucking you like it. Yeah, Maverick, you did right. It's not about me elevating

the other guy. Yeah. It does feel like, I don't know, if they announced tomorrow, like he's got

Benny Safdie or Josh, Josh Safdie, I guess is the more exciting pic, right? Working on a Vince movie.

Right. Do people get interested if it's the right chapter? If it's the right writer. Yeah, sure.

I mean, this is the one where you're like, well, I could buy him playing pool. Yeah.

Like versus Days of Thunder, where it's like, get out of the car, Tom. Like, you know, like,

I'm trying, I'm looking at his 80s. It's funny. It's like, he's killed the movie right after this.

cocktail is an 88. So he doesn't make a movie in 87. Yeah. So cocktail is his next film.

Feels like what you're saying of the first time where he's like, no, I'm the best bartender.

Right. The arc of that movie is guy stumbles into a thing immediately comes better in everyone

else in the world. His challenge is that no one will give him that credit. Basically,

and then a woman does. So cocktail is apologies to Bill Simmons. A terrible movie. Yeah.

A man just a man of fun. It's a good fun. It's a dog shit move for the idiots. Stupid, stupid

movie. I love it. But it's fun. But he, you know, he's got that 80 80 balances it with rainman,

where it's like, once again, I'm working with a big director. I'm opposite a bigger actor.

In my opinion, he steals rainman out from Hoffman. I feel like that's sort of become the

majority opinion of that's that's the performance. At the time, but obviously that's not the case.

Didn't even get nominated. How do people feel about rainman now? We did as rewatchable recently.

If you guys done it in a, we've never done 11th. Because he's one of those classic guys of like

the latter half of his. Yeah, you'd be like watching the day, which I kind of like, but,

but you'd be like, okay, if you watch the rock, the cash box. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

Like the one where Ben Foster is a boxer. Right. That's an HBO on maybe we could skip that.

It's just a, it's a really weird movie. Yeah. It's a very, very watchable movie. For sure.

But it's just like you're like, us, it's about a car salesman who has a little bit of money trouble

and then finds out he has a brother. Right. The stakes of it are oddly low. It's the thing about it

is this obviously you could never do movie like that today. The Hoffman performance is would now be

seen as insensitive or whatever. It's an incredibly moving movie just like, you know, just the gut,

you know, the way it works. I think most of the crews also, oh, it's good script, but it's a good

script. It is crazy. It's not a movie I've seen a lot. I've seen like, no, it's crazy when you look

at it and you're like, everyone wanted to make that script. There were so many versions of that

movie with different a list actors and different directors where you're like, you know,

Spielberg almost makes it with Bill Murray in the Hoffman part. Like people were like

tripping over themselves to get the chance to make this film and then it sweeps the Oscars

and it's the highest grossing film of its year. It sure was. And so like, I guess that's part of

the crew's touch at that point. And then the next year he does born on the 4th of July, which I feel

like is the moment where it's like, okay, you're a certified great actor. But then he follows it with

like, days of thunder, far and away, if you could mend the firm interview with the vampire mission

impossible, a lot of like very sort of sort of crowd forward movies. Like he doesn't make another

really like, I mean, I guess far and away is trying to be a serious movie. Yeah. And I think all

those movies, I was just, I got excited a few good men like a sequel. The last good man.

A bunch of great people. You're going more. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of great people in the

military. Yeah. That's that's the argument for the movie. Nothing excites me more than the sound of a

but Nicholson still alive. Yeah. He appears to be retired. Guantanamo. He's gone through a

couple of iterations. I was going to steam you know, rebound it like, I was going to say,

Sorkin Legacy, who are the scariest words currently plaguing the modern movie landscape. He's up to

no good. But then I'm realizing that's that's another example of it's not fincher doing the

legacy well with an entirely different cast, but it is Sorkin making his own legacy.

To the punch on that. Yeah. Oh, right. We were talking about that off mic. We're saying how weird

it is that he too is the same guy making a movie. Newcast as the same characters recasting every

role. Yeah. A few good men obviously. Rob Rhiner recently died. That is tragic. That probably makes

a few good men like a sequel even less likely. Also, what would it be about? Also, what are you?

What what are we doing here? Apparently, I mean, are there still lawyers?

The judge checks the truth social fear and sees what Trump has said and makes his decision. Like

I mean, by the time this episode comes out, maybe the social reckoning trailer is out there.

Almost definitely that movie is by all accounts like 90% courtroom. It sounds like that's the

just he's really good at that stuff. You know, or like he knows how to but that might be what if

you're a few good men, legacy, cool might be a few bad way to listen. Tom Cruise is a Jack.

Tom Cruise is a judge advocate general in a few good men. Yes. Jack as we all know, NCIS is based

on Jack is a spin off technically spin off the TV show. Jack will know this. The like a sequel is

them on tangling the media rights of NCIS in a court. Oh, that would be fun. And it's just kind of

like, wait, and this counts to like LL Cool J's testifying for some reason, right? You know, just like

digging into all of that. Because now there's the NCIS spin off that's young Mark Harman that's

created by Mark Harman's son, but Mark Harman's son doesn't play. He was recast.

Young Mark Harman, even though he played young Mark Harman on and sad flatness theory.

Is Chris O'Donnell going to play the key for Sutherland role? Have like,

you can write a glee like, magga kind of like, yes, like somewhat coded. Right. We're like,

we're you. What were you doing? No, uh, that's um, let's talk about the color money.

Let's talk about the color money. My God. It opens like many great films do with Martin

Scorsese, the director doing voice over. Yeah. He's not a character in the film. Yeah.

Just being like, let me explain a thing to you. Uh, the most grotesque and also the most

beautiful image of a cigarette where you're like, I gotta have that immediately. I'm just also like,

what is smoke and drink? So look at that ash falling off of it. That's what goes to your lungs.

This is the worst thing that we've ever done to ourselves. As a former smoker that this is

triggering. You wanted to go. God, I want to drink in smoke. I've never smoked a cigarette in my

life movies like this. I'm just again, I'm like, I need to move into a pool hall. I need to

become addicted to brown liquid. That makes my head. I was like, this needs to be a mandatory

road trip thing. We're like, uh, like some old head and like a 20 something have to like be linked

up. And it doesn't even have to be like that. I need to learn how to be a pool hustler.

But they have to learn something. But I just want to like scum apprenticeship. Yeah.

Scum apprentice would be a great franchise. Yeah.

Interesting. Interesting. A Ben has a franchise who's been trying to launch for children called

scum friends. Yes. Okay. That's good. It's a big 10. You know, we could have g-rated stuff,

but we could also then scum apprentice is like, we're going in and we're learning about hustling

and friends and scum friends is sort of that's metaphorically what it's about that we should not

cast judgment on the. Yes. The art and society. But it's literally a physical manifestations of

living. I'm a professional. I knew Chris would get this. I'm a professional pool player. I say

to a woman in a bar. Yeah. And she's like, oh, so you're like a low life.

Then below that is like, I'm a professional pool player who often pretends to be bad.

And so I can score money off of people. Maybe I'm going to get nice outside. Where it's like,

you found a scum here version of professional pool player to be.

What were you not satisfied just being in pool hall?

The only other thing about how appealing the world of this movie is to us. My friend Alejandro

had a joke he used to tell about where he would refer to liquor as magic water that makes you sick.

And for how much this movie is about drinking. It's a liquor salesman and it makes it look

fucking awesome. You're also like putting glasses to people's mouths being like taste that sweet,

sweet, with. But it's also this isn't like mad men drinking. This is like you see like,

oh right, the magic water makes you sick. This guy looks bad. He's depressed.

I don't like East Coast for five days. I haven't had a vegetable. And it's not even like focused

romantic like self punishing Bukowski drinking. It's actually just like, no, but I can feel my body

slowly dying just doing like three days of this. And that's what he does every morning.

Like he had to probably are no mornings because all he does is get up at 4 p.m.

You feel this movie in your time and meets with a woman who's inexplicably wearing a kimono

and is like, try this old McDowell. It's like I mean, it's bonded.

It's magical water. It's like you said in your lips.

It's the the Mulaney joke of like, did the bat, did the bathroom was a strolling Cooper?

I'm like, I want to house. I'm not watching this movie being like, I wonder what kind of

shit Paul Newman takes. But like the second you start thinking about it, like, right, you're like,

right, we're not watching six hours of the guy on the John with a paper, like which is

must be built. They're eating at diners and white cow's balls. Exactly. And they, and they smoke

and drink all day. Yes. Yeah. And the hottest any man has ever been. But in that way, same as

slap shot. Yeah. He is. He's correctly depicted as like as a like battered piece of shit.

And yet he's still the hottest thing you've ever seen. I mean, the verdict like this era,

in the verdict. You're like, oh no. Like I mean, and like he is so fucked up. Yeah.

And in the verdict, he's also like, I'm an ambulance. He's like, I got my apartment,

which is also my office. That was the rule. This one. It's like, you're like,

a full player. That's cool. And the verdict you're like, wow, you suck.