‘Lanterns’ Season Finale Breakdown With Tom King

Hello and welcome to a very special, an interview special.

That's right.

For House of R, we're doing a very special thing for this lantern's finale.

We have the man, the myth, the legend himself, Tom King, here on the show to talk about the

lanterns finale.

Malarubin, anything you want to say about that?

Not only is Tom King the co-creator, one of the co-creators, along with Damon Lindelof

and Chris Mundy of lanterns and an executive producer of lanterns, he is one of the great

comic book writers and creators in recent memories.

So it was really a treat to talk to Tom about this finale and about the season of TV.

But also just a balanced story about apples, about Billy's dip, about football, Star Trek,

and about being a nerd who loves this stuff.

We really had a blast.

It was such a treat to get to break this all down with Tom.

This is a full spoilers, all of it.

All of it, all the time.

From minute one.

So for the lanterns finale, if you have not watched that yet, go watch that and come back

and listen to our conversation with Tom King.

And then mere hours after that, come back to the House of R our Feed, the Ring of

R Us YouTube channel because our deep dive, correct, on the season finale, we'll be

waiting for you first thing Monday morning.

You know the drill from there.

Watch, follow, hang out with us, send us your emails.

Do it all.

Excellent.

So we're going to get to our conversation with Tom King right after this.

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I want to start.

I've actually heard you talk about the cell sore, but I found it so fascinating that

I'm going to ask it myself, just in case our podcast lists are seven or eight.

I think it's a test.

And if I say a different answer than before, I'll have screwed up in the whole.

Yeah, exactly.

No, this is so much a story about personal evolution.

It's permitted.

You're fine.

Oh, great, great.

That's the personal evolution.

Perfect.

Yeah, that's the answer to it all.

I wanted our listeners to hear you talk about a murder mystery as sort of like a storytelling

cheat or hack for introducing a new world for readers or viewers.

Yeah, absolutely.

But before I said this off the edge, I want to say on the other huge fan I am of yours,

how much I love listening to you guys, how big.

Am I allowed to swear?

Probably not.

Yes.

Yes.

You are.

Oh, yes.

What big fucking nerds you are.

Oh, how it just feels like I'm listening to my friends talk.

Thank you for doing what you do and promoting what you promote.

I have not listened to any of your lanterns episodes because it would drive me insane.

But besides that, it's wonderful.

Thank you, Tom.

Thank you.

So nice.

To answer the question.

Yeah, I mean, is it the oldest trick in the book?

No, because like the oldest trick in the book is Homer being like, no, you can't find

your wife and you're looking for her.

That's like the oldest trick, right?

So this guy, like the second oldest trick in the book, is the murder mystery.

And a lot of people when they're building a story and by a lot, I mean, I mean, it's

kind of 40% of stories.

Like it's ridiculous in that stories.

Are you think of an incredible world that you want to explore as a writer?

And that can be anything from another planet to a cruise ship to a place in the past?

And you're like, how the hell do I explore this place?

Like, what is my character do to explore?

I know someone gets murdered and I have a detective investigate that and you can go through

that.

And so that's why how we get things like watchmen of our very famous comic is just the murder

mystery comic.

And how we get things like, you know, Chinatown exploring this sort of L.A. thing.

But it extends beyond noir until most every genre you can have.

It's almost a cop out that it's so easy and cliche.

But it's not like it's just, it's, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's

Monet drawing the same chapel again and again and again.

Like it's, it's how writers do their work by doing the same things the most time, but

pretty amazing.

I'm curious, I'm curious then in terms of crafting a murder mystery at the center of the

story, how important to you, especially like in the context of television, how important

to you is something like surprise in a finale in a revelation for, for who'd done it.

Like are you looking for jaws to drop or do you want to like lay a breadcrumb trail

that's sort of thick enough that we all felt like we followed it together?

I really should not be honest about this, but so I apologize.

Yes, you should.

Yeah, I think you should.

As a fan, right?

As a guy who was, was very much a fan boy who didn't start writing comics until I was

34.

So you got to imagine I've been, many years of consuming before I became someone who

created.

You care from the outside so much about the plot, so much about the murder mystery.

Once you start to create it, you care less about the plot and more about the characters.

Who does the murder?

That's very interesting to you.

This is the first day you get it and you're like, okay, I got this murder scene.

And not every writer is the same.

I should say that.

Like, different people think differently.

But, but at least for me, you're like, okay, that's the plot.

But what matters to me is the execution is the actual words.

It's exploring these characters as they go along the way because a very boring murder

mystery is just a very boring murder mystery.

What makes it, stimulant makes it interesting is that you're super invested in the characters

that you're actually exploring something, but you're actually saying something.

And so it's so funny because the audience, you forget that part because to you, that's

become such a one percent of what you're working.

You're working the other 99 percent.

But the audience, that's 80 percent.

And so it's like a reversal once you sort of crossed the line.

You're like, who did it?

Like, what do you care who did it?

Did you see the incredible suit John Warren with it said about his character?

You're like, so yeah, it's a bizarre thing.

We sort of crossed the path from creator, from observer into observed.

We, despite all of those beautiful and poetic things you just said about how it's less

about the plot and more about the heart of the thing, we do actually still want to ask

you about the character of an all because, you know, we are, I, so I just chatted with

you, you and Chris and Damon and Kyle and Aaron.

So I heard Chris's answer to this question, which is basically like, did you ever consider

anyone other than Carrie?

Was it Carrie from day one or were other contenders in the mix?

And you know, it's, it sounded like the answer was pretty early on.

It was, it was going to be Carrie, but I'm curious for you, because we, on House of

Art, we've been speculating freely.

You know, we always, Joe always says like hold a theory loosely, but also we like to go

to the theory corner.

And you know, Carrie was a suspect of ours for sure.

We considered Noah, considered Billy, we considered Liyana, we considered the idea that

it had been, you know, Hal, given how the season developed, was it always Carrie for

you?

Did that always feel like the right choice?

Why did it feel like the right choice?

And how does what happened with, with Carrie and the reveal on the finale, you know, feel

like it connects to the overall season long examination for, for Hal, certainly of,

of opening up, right, of forming these real relationships, because that's a, that's

a tough thing.

Tough.

I'm brutal beat.

Uh, for, for Carrie to be the one to, uh, to put the bulletin, Hal said pain.

I mean, when something goes from zero to something like this wasn't based on any previous

property, it was just, um, first, it's me in a room and then three dudes in a room and

then six writers in a, in a bigger room, sort of these sort of different phases.

Um, and so like every possibility was considered, uh, we knew it was going to be generally thought

to be a murder mystery for those reasons I said before.

So we like, who's going to get murdered was like the first, like, what's, who's the,

like, like, and we definitely all threw out candidates.

So we, so certain Dave and I landed on Hal, um, and I, including Carrie, uh, and then

once we had a, we had a murder victim before we had a murderer for sure.

And then we were sort of going through like this world we had built and like, who would

do this and this and this and this.

Um, but yeah, we got to carry pretty early on.

I think, I talked about this in the bigger press conference.

So, for your me for, but one of the big things was, um, undermining cliches and, and,

and, and, and when we were undermining cliches, this whole thing is, it's, it's a superhero

show, but it's not bombastic.

It's, it's, it's doing tree detective.

That reminds us of a superhero cliche.

But there's also the fact that we're doing a detective show cliche in a small town.

And that's like a second set of cliches that comes in, which is more relevant, um, probably

like the Christian Damien who have written those kind of show before, um, as opposed to

me, but one of the things that's a cliche in all those shows is the small town female

sheriff, usually a single mom sometimes not, um, basically all modeled after the, um,

you know, the, the platonic ideal of the Fargo sheriff, right?

Like, right.

Um, and so the idea and then she's helpful and she falls in love with your lead, but

she's actually tougher than you think she is.

And there's all sorts of cliches beyond that.

And so one of the ideas was like, how do we make that character deeper?

Um, how do I mean, and, and, and, and the idea that she would be the murderer, um, that

that that character that usually is the helpful kind of person who solves the murder and

is the love interest is actually at the center of this conspiracy and is causing the conspiracy

rather than reacting to the conspiracy was very appealing to us in, in sort of our calling

card of, of resist, the, of resist the normal and get the surprise.

Um, I, can we stay on the, the death for a minute here because I want to talk about

the, the person on the other end of that bullet for, for another minute here, how, um, you

have, you have spoken, uh, about and shared, you know, how, how is your, your favorite

character?

But also how, uh, in, in, in an effort to deliver on this, this promise for, for lanterns

to be a show that felt like it was really about real life and rooted and grounded in

a real life that, that grief and loss had to be centered into the story, right?

What is it like?

I'm, I'm wondering because you've shared your own feelings about that.

What it has, has it been like for you to watch other people now go through their version

of that with how, with morning how, you know, people who have both, both the people who

have loved him for ages, who've been attached to him from, from prior stories and had a relationship

to him and also people who, this is their first experience with how they discovered how

here they fell in love with him for the first time after meeting him in the show and they

have the shock of the death at the end of the premiere.

But then also this second wave of morning him, a new, when the hologram flickers out.

Uh, what has that been like for you to see other people form this attachment and grieve

a character who has meant so much to you as a fan and a creator alike?

I mean, there's, there's, there's, there's quite a few sides of it.

First of all, it's just, I've never related to an audience more like, trust me, like when

we were at the table read for the first time and, and Kyle was, was reading, you know, um,

Harry Potter went to Hogwarts to ignore an alien fuck, um, which I very much remember

and being, and, and I remember just like, you know, Chris, so it's like, how are we going

to bring him back to life?

Like, like, like, like, like, that's so good.

Like, we cannot have this end.

Um, and, and, and you just, you, you've fell in love with that character even more.

Yeah, I, I've written him briefly in, in the comics, um, and then, and then I, I wrote a

comic that was like a parody of a terrible world where Halle puts his rangers and blows his head off.

And that, that was to show how awful the world was.

That it was so bad that this could happen to Hall Jordan.

I'm going to say Kyle and Halle are going to flip in my head about times.

And I apologize.

I'm sure John Aaron did the same.

Uh, but, but so what, another level of this is just convincing people that I don't hate

how that I love this character.

I just think he is so fantastic.

I, one of my deep nerds is a Star Trek.

I'm a Star Trek nerd.

Um, and to me, how Jordan is, is, is Captain Kirk.

Like, he's that, I don't believe in a no-in scenario.

I just, he kept that, that was like my hero growing up.

They do like, why does God into Starship?

Like, like, he's, he's the guy who just, he has no fear, but he's always going to take

that next step.

I love him.

Um, and so, and so I, I, I utterly, I utterly sympathized.

But I think that's just,

you know, we're, we're living in a time of this sort of, this superhero fatigue where people

can look at superhero content and say, oh, this means nothing, it's noise.

It's just the same thing I've seen a thousand times.

Yeah.

And so one of the ways to cut through that noise is, is to do what writers,

terribly, the one no writers hate to get from every other writer, which is Killier Darling's,

and to be like, look, we love him as much as you love him.

And that's the stakes we're willing to do to tell you this universe is big and this universe is real

of this universe in the average.

Can I ask you, um, I also love Star Trek.

If, if, if, if, if how is her, is there a temptation then to put some

spark in, in John, like that sort of logical, cool,

murdering, scary bones?

It's, yeah, you just, you're seeing for the Matrix now.

You are 100% seeing it's all that I love it.

The, the first writing lesson I ever, I worked for Chris Claremont, who's, um,

yeah, if you love X-Men, he just basically did X-Men.

It was a more complicated map, but if you love that sort of thing,

I was his assistant when I was like 18 years old.

And the, and the first thing you ever told me about writing, the really penetrated my mind is,

it's like, Kirk is the best character to write in fiction.

I was like, why is he best?

He's like, his brain is outside his body.

Like, as a writer, when he has a logical thought, that's,

Scott, when he had, the Spock, that's when he has an emotional thought, that's bones.

And so you can have sort of his aid in a super-you-go-argue with each other while you're,

I never thought I was like, I was like, character being separate things.

And they did all three of those, which were pointing in the same direction.

And I think you, in this show, yeah, there's definitely that dynamic that I learned from Chris when I was 18.

This is like that golden trio episode we did, Mallorraine.

It is.

Yeah, exactly.

I love it.

So, I get to that.

Um, can I fall?

Okay, so this, this show, this, this release champion, John and Hal,

or the Hall of Gram, would keep prefer to delineate that way.

Ends with an exchange of I love you, which is just my favorite thing that has happened.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Just amazing.

I love love stories, however they manifest.

And, you know, we, this, this series, as we were covering it, we were talking about the show

hacks, like we were talking about these, like, sort of mentor mentee love stories that are platonic,

but it's about learning to love this other person and also learning to love yourself in the

process.

So, can you talk about this idea of this, you know, there's the Carrie Howell Love story,

which we are both very invested in, but there's the John and Howell Love story.

Can you talk about that as a foundation of, of this show?

I also love love stories.

I write them too much into my work.

No such thing.

No such thing.

No such thing.

No such thing.

I'm writing my first romance, you know, superman.

Really?

Oh my god, guys, it's so good.

Oh my god.

Wow.

But not just because I was inspired by your talk of all of the things, but partly, as I appreciate that.

But yes, I do, when we first talk about a buddy comedy in the beginning, Damon echoing, you know,

learning something when I was 18 and learning something when I was older, that 30 years later,

immediately was like, I've written buddy cops before, and buddy cops are just romantic

comedies by other names.

He's like that.

And I was like, oh my god, he's 100% right.

Like, like, it's you do the meat cute, you do the bill, you do the breakup, you do the

get back together.

It's the same thing, except, you know, you say bro instead of honey.

Yeah, or buttercup.

Or buttercup.

Or junior.

Or tax.

Yeah, and I watch the, you know, in prep for this, I watch, I had much Nally in months.

And much to my kids dismay because we're watching it live,

even seen it all, I'm watching it at the breakfast table, and like,

and yeah, when we came to that, I did not, I think Chris wrote that last scene, so I'm not,

I'm not complimenting myself, but yeah, it got me choked up with the, I love you too,

like those two, because it feels like even though it's only been eight episodes,

and even though if you actually track it, they weren't together that long, it feels like they've been

through something.

And the great romance is that make me cry as when people have kind of gone a journey together,

and it's been up and down, and at the end, you're like, but we're still here, you know,

we, we, we, we matter to each other like, and I felt all of that.

I mean, and it's so much in Kyle's, Aaron's performance.

I mean, Kyle's got that sort of Harrison Ford smile.

And Aaron, that's just, he stands like a superhero among men, so that helps.

Let's, let's stick with the emotional, the heft that we feel between so many of these characters,

because this season engages with and grapples with some, some very difficult subject matter,

you know, we have Martin Jordan's suicide, the idea of the, the Jordan boys legacy, it's in your

blood. We have John telling Noah that, you know, Zoe wanted him to kill her, and then Noah

asking John to, to kill him. We have Carrie worrying about whether Noah has her, you know, quote,

shitty jeans. We have John, of course, confronting, you know, across the season, what his,

what his parents did, the choices that they made for him. You know, the idea of whether we can

escape our nature and the ways that we can come to fear what is lurking inside of us.

You know, I was just so struck by that Noah line in the finale. If you could see the inside of

my head, you'd never stop screaming like, I'll be thinking about that forever. But there's,

there's just what a bar. That's the Damon Lindelof that's like the Miz coming in with 105 there,

with the just unbelievable. But there's also just such an empowering and hopeful emphasis, right,

intertwined with all of this. There's Hal telling John that Martin couldn't bear to let him see him,

and then we watch Hal in his second chances find a way to do that, to open up, to build new bonds,

to let other people see him, to share. We hear John say that Noah's actions aren't programming,

that they're love. Obviously, Hal and John, you know, in addition to the, I love you,

Hal tells John don't be afraid to be afraid. So the show interrogates what people do to each other,

but also then champions, connection with each other as a path to healing and growth and betterment.

How did, did both of those missions feel equally important and ultimately

inexplicable because there is a like less deft and well executed story where they,

where it feels like dissidents, like those things are in conflict with each other. But here they

just ultimately like heightened each other. Yeah, I mean, that's absolutely wonderful. Come,

come, come, come, and thank you for seeing all that stuff that we worked so hard on.

And hope would be in the final product. I mean, I mean, I think that's what

makes John unique at the end of the story is, is his ability to kind of see that because what,

what you say, Damon, we all have kids that are about like in their teenagers and are sort of about

to leave. And I think I think I think a lot of this is sort of built on the fear of are they can,

if you're a writer, you're full of anxiety and emotion and insanity. Like that's what it means,

that's why you do this for living, you know, be a lawyer or a doctor like a normal person

or a podcaster, right? Like that's, oh yeah, that's normal.

And so of course, we also share the anxiety of like how we give this sort of kids and have

and have and have way not, but, but the idea at the end that

John's, trauma, I never even about this, this a lot, is a horrible thing. And it's horrible,

it happens to it's horrible, all of us can go through it. But it also becomes part of you. It

also becomes part of your strength. It's not just something that you need to be

scared of. It's something that you can also eventually be proud of. Your scars become your armor,

become your ability to fight, right? And the fact that John went through this childhood where he

was sort of put through such hell and had to come to grips with that and rebel against it and go

back means that he can see people in three dimensions, you know, he can see Noah, he can see Noah's

struggle. The way I don't think even how would see it, he can see Carrie's struggle. I don't think

Carrie would see her own struggle and get the sense that like, you see that moment with Bernadette,

he's like, yeah, my mother was horrible to me, but she was also wonderful. Like, my father was

scared as anything, but he was also brave. And I can see both sides of that. And that's what makes

him evolve. It's make him the ability to have the verb without the ring. It's that sort of next

step beyond sort of one dimension to three dimensions. And then that's why he's at the

end and that's I feel the story of the finale looking back on it. And I think you especially get

that with Kelly's performance, just being struck by it again this this morning where I think in a

normal drama, you draw just a direct line between what Sheriff Carrie does in terms of she kills

him and then she calls Hal and like, you'd be like, I killed him and then I had a plan to hide my

murder. I did it like you'd Colombo. I love Colombo. You'd be like, there's my whole plan to get away

but her plan doesn't make sense. And I remember in the writers room that kind of bothering us. Like,

why does she call John? She's going to get discovered. But then she hides it from John to not get

discovered. And it goes back and forth. And I was very bothered by this. Just as a storyteller,

because it wasn't a linear line. It wasn't Colombo. But when I see it now, it just feels so much more

human and so much more like she's making mistakes and regretting them in real time. And she's not

in control of her emotions. Who would be in that circumstance? Who would do the right thing exactly

correct? And she doesn't know herself even entirely. And to me, it reads as more human. I think

that's what John sees. Yeah. I also felt that it just it felt like Carrie's, maybe a more

shielded and like private version, but Carrie's version of penance, you know, which is obviously

so much a part of the arc for Hal and others. Yeah. We've noticed the best like the, you know,

I'm a big film noir fan and you speak because of the, you speak a film noir in the 50s. There

was a code and like if you committed a murder, you had to go to jail by the end. That was the law,

like the FCC would get to get involved. We don't have any more, but it's still like kind of

ingrained in the DNA of our watching. They're like, oh, someone committed a crime. They have to be

punished. There must be. And what we had a big debater is like does Carrie get punished? Like

nothing could punish her more. Yeah. In the fact that she did that thing and she has to look

with it. There's no like jail isn't worse than that. Like she like that. She she she she

and that so that was a big part of thing in sort of Carrie's and how she ends up in the end.

It's funny because I'm a huge killing McDonald fan from everything she's done. Oh my god.

Right. But most of all my most rewatched my one of my most beloved movies of all time is

Gossard Park and Spoilershire Gossard Park. But this is a Gossard Park ending. What purpose could

it possibly serve? And I just like I got really excited by that. And I think it's a brilliant ending.

I want to circle back to you know you mentioned the goat Bernadette.

I mixed it up Bernadette. But I'm writing Mr. Miracle and the one that has a villain called

Bernadette seems to know. I got her name. So they're all good.

Last last year a variety announced a different actress to play sort of like an older version

of Bernadette. And and so I'm curious if there was ever and you know here in the finale we get

Johnson, see if it's John who's been amazing in sort of older age makeup here in the finale.

And I'm curious if there was ever a different I don't know split between 2016,

2026 a different balance of the Stewart family story inside of the larger story that you decide

to recalibrate or what was the decision there. I mean Chris can talk to a bit better than I can but

it was nothing more than logistics stuff of could could we could we make an actress who's in her

you know it was 30 look like they're in their 60s like it was that it was nothing more than

would the makeup look silly and could we pull it off. And I think at some point we're like no we

can do this. So we're going to see with one actor. So it was nothing more than the practicality of

how how makeup goes on a face. It was it was in a story issue at all.

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That's a very different subject matter, but talking about how well things look on the screen makes

me think of another question I wanted to ask you. There's been rightly such an emphasis across the

season about how grounded how grounded lanterns is and that is obviously true.

But the show also manages this is something that Joe and I have really appreciated and talked

about in our coverage this season never seems to feel embarrassed of its cosmic and comic book

elements and roots. You can think of the constructs or finally seeing Antons planet or everything

with Sineshtra are obviously most importantly of all archery. Were you the keeper of those

keys as someone so steeped in comic book creation and also celebration and just more generally like

how did you and the team approach ensuring that lanterns would honor both its dusty true detective

mission and the larger green lanterns ties and universe that it is a part of.

I think there was a spectrum in the room with Chris Christmoney who's the showrunner who readily

admits he has no nerd access. I don't think he's seen endgame. I don't think he's like.

What about endgame encore? Yeah, that's the end maybe one bit sweet game.

No, I mean like Chris plays tennis and basketball. I don't even know how to relate to that shit.

I'm on the floor reading to some of the writers who were in the middle, you know, a

a Bri and Justin Vanessa and then to Damon who's deeply nerdy and knows the stuff very well

in grew up reading comics and then to me who's just like a meshed a meshed in the stuff.

And so but I mean yeah, I think one of my I'm key to say roles in the room because you know

sometimes the roles get reversed but it goes from both polarities with me. One of my roles was

to be like this isn't a detective show. This is a superhero detective show and to constantly

remind people that our audience is that none of us got in this room because we want to write true

detective season five. We want to write lanterns and to sort of stick up for that and to say don't

be prep. But yeah, but the other side of that equation was the pull from the other side which is

a lot of and I've seen this over and over again, having worked both both sides Hollywood and comics

is that when Hollywood touches comics, they tend to think comics are I don't know the right word

is but dumb is one of them. Like like they tend to look down at comics and they go I'm working with

this meeting of superheroes. Therefore I can make this I can it's not lazy but it's like I can lean

into the boring the cliches the like the the capes will get me as far as I need to go and I've

seen like incredible creators who would treat regular people with nuance and beauty get to a superhero

and they're like no they just have to fight at the end right that's what dislike violent and so

from the very beginning on the other side of this was to be like I'm here to tell you take risks

push this you know you know put your true to put your true detective into this into this don't

talk down to this audience the comic audience are very intelligent they're very smart they've seen

everything before they they they they they're just as people watching the superhero shows are just as

smart as the people who are watching the fancy shows that are on HBO all the time now so I

I try to play both roles. Well so I'm I want to push you a little further on your role in the

writers room because I've heard you give credit Chris money I've heard you give credit to

Damon Lindellaw for a line I've heard you talk about Justin and I said all of them

I want to hear you talk about a picture decision that you made in the writers room that you were

sort of most excited wound up being in the final product that you're like this is an idea I had

and we executed it and I'm super proud of it. Bragg on yourself Tom. Yeah Bragg on myself.

I mean I remember what I thought of the the apple on the head in the RU phrase which opens

everything I was I just remember that I couldn't sleep when I it was we were we were writing the pilot

and I was and I just was like how do we how do we get John's origin story to be something

slightly more interesting and we added to it so much as it went along but just that initial like

I just saw in my mind that sort of opening scene where this father puts an apple on his

son's head and says are you afraid and shoots it off and I pitched it the next day to Damon and

Chris and this you know this was my I've worked in a lot of television that like hit walls this is

my first thing that we were like we were on the Warner Brothers lot I was working we were in Damon's

office with his fucking watchman I mean like yeah and Chris is you know telling stories of like

working on deadwood back in the day and like you're just like you're so intimidated like to go into

that room and be like I think this is how we should start the pilot and for those two guys to say yes

was was was a good day did you pitch a red apple specifically or did it matter one way or

not big for us the Apple or screen versus red always this is this this is such a writers room kind

of thing but like sometimes you you you do these things where you like you pitch the obvious idea

because you're like and then we'll build upon this and then as as because what because things keep

going the obvious idea is still there like I can't believe this they have an apple in the head like

if you think you're like that's like the first thought anyone has that William tell apple on the

head sure yeah so you pitch that like apple in head or whatever we think of and then it kind of

just the boy with this apple that's still there obviously like I thought we would think of like he

jump off a diving board or something but no it's apple in the head state the whole way I mean he

side step the answer so he's not taking sides and the reverses red apple war okay I think you know

he did who was not team red at the end of the day other than you show led to you people

hilarious the turn you wait wait wait you asked you want to like better red red green apples yeah

oh god no the best is the the red with yellow like it's the the yeah no not all red but

a honey Chris yeah honey Chris it's been talking right yeah all delicious sour thank you Tom

oh red is too mushy just to hear it you gotta get that right about the bite green apples are very

Chris you just had bad good apple listen that apple centered in this television show a beautiful

brilliant idea from Tom that allowed us to access questions about nature and programming and fear

I mean where would we be without red apples oh sure where would we be where we be without red apples

taking the place of dead bodies and a pulpit guys as haunted horror sequence Malia Rubin let's talk

about that for a second actually our guys that was a demon pitch that was the apples floating in the

water very much I mean spirit of collaboration is really what we're hearing here so beautiful

beautiful we love a creative partnership here on this podcast um synestro just to complete the

light across the board uh particularly fun in the finale to see him just uh shift in real time

from pitching John to pitching how to pitching John based on how his comments were being received

as a sterical really good um obviously you know we know there's nothing that you could say about

future story but in terms of what comic book fans and people who are familiar with the wider

lanterns can and might have been thinking as they saw synestro in this setting you know our guy

is sitting here trapped on a yellow planet drenched in fear toxin shitting himself in terror but also

making speeches about weaponizing fear uh would it be appropriate for comic book fans to be thinking

about synestro core to be thinking about parallax I uh I mean everything is appropriate and I've

loved everything I've seen I've sort of got to have political answer I should say some more

interesting than that um so I absolutely apologize but but uh I think

yeah what's appropriate is is is this is the seed I think synestro hints at the larger world that's

worth exploring um both behind this one and you know in the future of the D.C. you as we are you

see John's coming back in Madatuma how this summer um and so I think all of that is there and I think

you know if you watch the now the fact that he built this lantern not just a green lantern that

it has the streaks of yellow in it yeah um and that John is now drawing from a lantern that is

trying like any that is is is both troubling and inspiring which is what's going to make for good

HBO TV um so I think all of all of that is in there um what I like most about the synestro is the

untold story of sort of how in synestro is break up yeah um and that's looking back on this season

of how impactful that is because it's really sort of what the difference is between the halogram and

how is the halogram hasn't gone through that moment where his best friend the person he you know

you'd love as much as you see him love John at the end of his episode betrays him and he he's the one

who has to go off and and and sort of you know and get him you know that's sort of of mice and men

you know like taking him taking him behind the rabbit shed at the end you know like he's like

had that um yeah right sweet lend

that's like like like that's what made Hal so

honoree and so like the fact that he wouldn't open up to John was because he'd been through

something where he'd opened up to someone and gotten completely closed down but that's all

off screen and in and in the performance that that Kyle gives um and I think it's

it's an incredible story that has yet to be fully told I was really curious about that in in

this finale confrontation how seems like quite ready to be like shut up synestro I'm team John here

that hologram who has not gone through that traumatic event with synestro yet so at what point does

the hologram you know who we were thinking he would be conflicted because here's his mentor who he

doesn't know betrayed him but maybe did the hologram get a download about did he like go on Wikipedia

like Gary did and look at like what synestro did like how did how did he know to to to not take his word

for it I mean it's it we have a eight episodes of how saying trust my G trust is good and I feel

like he's on a he's on a weird planet he sees a guy who's very old and strapped to a chair ranting

like an evil person I think how trusted he's gotten something fresh John over synestro here

and uh fair enough yeah I thought it was like it is so surprising but really satisfying way it felt

to be kind of more impactful actually that how chose to reject synestros temptations that he

wasn't vulnerable to them despite not having gone through that because it felt like a way to kind of

you know solidify and cement really what the hologram and John in this just short little burst of

time were able to achieve together which then really you know amplifies all of the other messages about

if you open yourself up if you're if you're able to not feel like you need to repress or tamp down

your fear but you're able to examine it you know and work with other people to try to navigate it so

I got quite quite love that great stuff um we only have a few more minutes you have a few more minutes

of course thank you so much I'm sitting here feeling guilty for the apple thing so like they see look

face I I don't think you should I'm signing with so uh signing with team red was the right decision

and you should feel pretty great there are plenty of luminaries on team green I'm doing fine

I mean the most harsh candy after green apple if you want to like punish your friend you give them

the green apple flavor I love green apple jellery rangers they're delicious more of

better way by a shared bag yeah sure it's better so it's watermelon yeah um while we're talking

about food should we should we go to the source here should we ask Tom about Billy's dip please

kind of dip does Billy make what's Billy's making signature dip special dip I threw out like seven

layer dip or taco dip Joe thought maybe like a buffalo chicken what do you think is this actual

cannon is it head cannon is there an answer um oh my god so so the the the show takes place in

rushville because my it's a time my grandmother's from um I grew up in Los Angeles my grandmother was

from a very rural talent and and I was a you know single mother went to like like single

one's a half raised my grandma and so it's been a lot and she sort of tell me stories about

all this and after she passed away I got a recipe book from her and it was like I was like I

post like an old Nebraska and there was something in it called the dip um and it just

got you should remind me and my wife always makes fun of it because it was literally a pound of

velvita a pound of of of shock and a pound of heavy cream yeah yeah yeah portable and mixed yes

that's the dip so I knew it I knew that it was me the heavy I knew it it should be full of course

amazing disgusting and it's good to try it yeah I'm sure it's delicious a Midwestern special

and it comes with a salad which is just a head of lettuce and a bottle of ranch dressing

and correct correct yeah with some bacon hopefully sprinkle up top um Mallory uh Mallory

just asked a very knee question I'm gonna ask a very Mallory question which is it about sex loving

it's the loving it's all right it it is it's about the location of where we find Earl

in the postfire bachelor pad the like shotgun setup bachelor pad that we that we see

that Hall is moved into after the fire Earl is perched right next to the bed and we were both

a little concerned about that we're not sure how much time carrying how had together after the fire

but if they did um do you feel like Earl was traumatized like uh what Hall and Carrie got up to

how we know can honestly leaves his boots on during that so like what do you think Earl bore witness to

I think Earl he's been around the block few times he's seen some things I think and you know I'm

I'm not gonna yuck someone's yum whatever whatever was working for the work for the three of them

that's all there you go okay okay okay okay confirmation on a cool threesome love it okay you know I

know I got one not confirmed my understanding the world has opened the pot what that's what

house says at one point that world is a big big place you know it's all that when you've experienced

the the pleasures of the galaxy you know we can just amend the second clause of that sentence it's like

yeah why shouldn't your your greenhouse plant who eats how many pounds of raw bison a day uh watch

you fuck there you go it all tracks um I'd like to ask you now about football okay not confirming that

remember where remember when Tom started this conversation I think you guys are

too yeah I know because it's okay to swear and also like oh like what let's let's let's start with

out of these these this beautiful poetry and now we're just like can we ask you about dip and

whether Earl watched a hallen carry of sex I'd like to stick with the really profound stuff for

him and ask you about no Americans football career um I this this is animated I mean the ringer you

know we do sports and pop culture like this is just animated so much conversation here at the

ringer and the group chats on slack in the office everyone's buzzing I'm ready to defend some some

some indefensible things well I mean we could talk about you know what how whether you could become

at all-state quarterback it with that offensive line all of it but I'm curious if you have in mind

either an NFL or a college football comp because obviously based on some other schools that

knows considering but also we got to glimpse him in action in the finale we saw him you know we

saw him handing off we saw him scrambling a lot right he's definitely a dual threat quarterback he's

running is too small to be Josh Allen but maybe he can match the rushing touchdowns is he supposed

to be like Johnny Manzel just in a football respect obviously he's supposed to be Tim Tibo you know

on the Nebraska front is he Tibo light is he Taylor Martinez like what what what what what what is Noah

makins makeup here as a quarterback I feel like the size doesn't quite line up but I'm gonna say

yeah I'm gonna go wow okay so Noah's is bound for a big career here wow this is exciting

I'm saying this like Steve was you know he was patient he watched you know walk with Tana play

for all those years and he knew like someday would all be his and someday he's hungry and if

you've ever seen Steve he's talking like he's like the most philosophical guy he's he got the

X's and knows but he's also like let me also get my law degree on the side and like like you

you're like oh this guy could also run for Senate but he just happens to be throwing a football but

he also is like an incredible runner what we see so I feel like Steve Young is a pretty good

comp I feel like we'll see Noah on PTI eventually every every Tuesday breaking down games yeah

yeah can I say calm I was wondering if he was gonna be like a nervous scramble or like Baker

me field but no he seemed very composed of the in the pocket of the shotguns he's he's a thinking

guy he's he knows all the fights for sure yeah in the in the world of sports figures you could have

referenced the fact that you mentioned Steve Young and Joe Montana 49 or quarterbacks from like the 80s

and 90s the only people like Apostle recognize is like very very kind so thank you so much

that one was free thank you sports show what a time to be sports show those are the things I know um

okay listen let's keep it sports-esque um you talk a lot about the coaching tree of like

synestro to how to john and sort of how these things get passed down um abinsur is in the mix of

course um I'm curious you know we get this a parting wisdom of don't be afraid to be afraid

is that the most important how a lesson of how that imparts to john what's the most important

thing that how taught john whether it's a hologram or or OG flavor how uh imparted to our new

official green lantern inside of the dc universe live action I mean I think it's up for the bayon

people can say anything don't be afraid of being phrased big but but to me especially when I

look at that episode where he lands um to me it's the idea of forgiveness and of of of of of that when

you forgive someone you can let your anger go um and you can you know it's it's that old

um a a thing that that at some point your crime is not about you know you you did the bad thing you

did the bad thing but it's weighing so hard on me I have to let it go and I have to let you go um and

I think he has so much we've all had these people that were just so close and we cherish so much

about how they how much they think about us and whether they like us or hate us and we just live or

die by little microaggressions and um and that can just eat you up inside and you're just like going

over moments and moments in your head I think what what he learns from how is is that you you can

you can let you yeah you can forgive that person for those microaggressions and sort of you can

see their trauma and see it from their perspective and see how where where they how they got to where

they are and that they are capable of coming to you and and giving you the love they have denied

and I think that's that's it yeah I I love that so much when you you heard me say you do the apples

yeah yeah you heard me say this already today but I just I was really across the season in the finale

in particular with you know with Kerry with Howe with Noah with with his parents just really

struck by the grace John is able to find for other people and the forgiveness that he is able to

grant them and thus help them grant themselves is really uh a forming I think thing for a lot of

people to to see um and just you know of all the heroic attributes that we get to witness and John

I think really one of the most remarkable and undeniable um you know and I love thinking about all

of the things that we witnessed in his journey that helped him get to that point but then of course

it's exciting for us as fans who have become so attached to this version of the character to think

about what it does for him moving forward in the future how he lives his life how he navigates his

relationships and how he assumes the mantle of earth screen lantern which is a mantle that he

reforged you know in an episode where the idea of forging and reforging comes up many times that he

reforged for himself so you know we we couldn't get off without talking to you about the oath of

course and the idea of John crafting and reforging the oath in a way that genuinely in this question

of programming and your nature and the path of the choices you make felt like a way to pay off

all of those things for him and for the larger themes of the show that this was a character who

worked his way to this place by assessing and navigating and trying to understand all of the things

that other people had done and all of the things that he had done and then how to make the choice

that was right for him for the reasons that meant something to him um you know for you what did

that feel like for for for John as one of the people who helped bring this version of John to

the screen what did it feel like to watch Aaron perform that oath I mean it was just like astonishing

it was gobsmacking and you know what did it feel like in that larger kind of of of macro and

meta sense to be able to put this shows version of this iconic thing out into the world which obviously

just parallels so beautifully with those ideas about forging your own way.

No so well put um I first I mean in talking about sort of where John lands I I think is there's two

sides so there's the forgiveness side we see but also there's the idea that he's not like oh I

forgive you therefore I can walk away because you're all good he's like because I forgive you and

because you're going to be a manhundra out in the world I have to put on a ring and be the one who

guarantees you don't become a crazy person who like it's he he doesn't say forgive them and walk

away he forgives them and says okay now I have a because I forgive you we're now connected and now

you become a burden to me becomes you become a responsibility to me um and um and I think what's

distinct in that and what goes into what you were just talking about is is John's a lot of banks

given a lot of responsibility throughout his life from very very like you are responsible for

his family his brother called him chosen like like you you like literally his parents were like we're

going to get divorced this whole family is going to fall apart unless we put it all on John's

shoulders and he and he can carry us and they're like it's not fair and they know he's going to

hate us literally say that but they're like that so he's been carrying that so he's been

carrying all those burns and at the end of five we seem safe bucket he let's go over the burdens

of people have given him and that's one step in revelation and select over the burdens the next

step is to say okay I don't want burdens given to me but I don't mind taking on my own burdens right

like like and that's what this last step is about where he's like there's a difference between

what's put on my back and what I put on my own back um and then he when he when he's so when he

takes that oh he's not chosen anymore he's making a choice um and and so he's saying I and and

part of that is being like I'm not going to say this oath that everyone else says I'm a different

kind of person I'm making a choice to be my own person and so that that was that was all in that

last of an air and I mean from day one the first time I met him like I mean he just called him

superhero as a nickname I just he can't understand this six three gorgeous it just looks like he came

out of he I should say this for me it really feels like they're talking to Chris Hammonds worth

any Avengers you just think you're like you know that movie's going to come work he's going to come

from wherever one's losing and then he appears from the sky and the audience goes nuts um and uh and

and that's how you feel when you meet Aaron but and that's one thing to to look that way and to

embody that way but also to get the other side to get all the emotional content and to do it all not

in his own accents um except for the the one line which was actually a fucking awesome um

is exactly stunning and and a dude is down to earth like no pretensions no movie star nothing like

i'm one day we're on set like a little short list of like who's gonna be James Bond came out and he

was on it and i was like how do you go to work and like like everyone's like are you James Bond he's

like all right let's go i was like i asked him about his he must know like agent must have told him

oh my god but no totally down to earth and just making jokes and super cool

that's awesome well thank you so much Tom King for your time and for your work and for your

larger body of work which i'm such a fan of and um we appreciate you so much thank you Tom this

is awesome thank you for being there thank you for doing this thank you for talking about this

show is a show that only exists because people talk about it it's like it's a hard show to

recommend but since everyone's talking about every watch that so you have made you've literally

put food in my kids table and i'm incredibly great come back and join us again sometime in the

future please anything all right so tough look for me because team green lost another one

big apple wars all for Joe uh it's true it's true big win on the dip front though i would say

and big win on the potential intergalactic plant threesomes front for both of us quite agree

look we we did a taste test at this very table when we were talking with Tyson and Riley about

survivor i think we should make that dip i i agree great it sounded disgusting but also probably

it sounded delicious absolutely delicious oh you know what i mean no question delicious in real time

and then full overgrout then you have some regrets later tail is all this time you know will we

actually do it i don't know that's why you have to follow out house of out you say outhouse of our pod

got one for this one it might be outhouse of our pod at house of our pod on Instagram

let's get across over without house of our for this particular moment might have arrived yeah we'll find out

as we mentioned come back for the full deep dive on Monday morning uh thanks so much to Tom

King thank you Tom thanks to our team squad uh thanks to you Mallory Revan thank you to you Joanna

Robinson and we'll see you soon bye

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Market in store or online from the studio that brought you one to Vijay i was an Avenger but i'm not

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