‘Lanterns’ Is One of Our Strongest Superhero Shows Ever. Plus, ‘Sicario 3’ and a New ‘Miami Vice’ Ending.

I need support to have to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now.

Hello and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at TheWinger.com and joining me on the other line after a brief on field

conversation with Matt Rool.

He is ready to commit to Nebraska.

It's an degree.

I wish it always happened like that.

You and Matt will always walked up to you and it was just like this hat fits you just

right, brother.

I mean, wouldn't life be easier?

I mean, you'd be playing for Nebraska and getting smoked on the big 10 every year, I think.

So I'd be getting smoked in any program division one through three.

How far are we stretching?

Not me, man.

I was born to play for Dan landing.

Or the University of Miami.

There's a couple of programs that I think I could have applied myself at Andy.

Fun show today.

You're skill set.

We are talking about the season finale of lanterns, obviously.

And then after that, I'm going to handle some mailbag questions that dovetail nicely into

some headlines that are out there today.

But I wanted to just get into lanterns.

This show has become, I don't know, I mean, like compared to Marshalls as a jug or not.

I don't know, but it's done quite well.

I think it's been a real feather in the cap of HBO of DC of Skydance, the dance.

They're loving it over at Skydance.

And I think it's arguably with with with watchmen, the best superhero TV show I've ever seen.

I don't know if that's Wow.

Bar is as high as, you know, as as we think it is necessarily.

But I found last night's finale to be emotionally very satisfying.

And a little bit creaky in places, but ultimately like the work of really an expert team of writers

from Vanessa Baden Kelly and Justin Prick Gibson and Tom King and Chris Mundy and Dame

Lindelof, the latter three who got credit on this last episode.

So why don't we start with the episode and then maybe we can talk a little bit about

the season as a whole if we have time today.

What were your feelings on the finale?

We are I think in complete alignment here where I deeply enjoyed the finale and I made

me feel very satisfied about the time spent with the season and it made me excited for

future stories to come.

I was surprised by a lot of the finale, which is a good thing, I think in the way that

we watch TV shows to be still have the potential to be surprised late in the game of something,

something that you like.

But man, I also went away from it being like, this is one of the more challenging puzzles

that I've ever seen a writer's room try to put together and I am very, very interested

in talking to you specifically because I do a podcast with you, but also because of

your thoughts on this.

About the pieces that didn't fit the despite being hammered down on, you know, like

what I mean specifically and I'll use an example and then I think we should talk more about

the positives.

Like the turn in Sheriff Carrey's persona personality history and future that had to happen in the

scene with John on the sidelines, right?

The journey that that scene had to take the characters in is a monster.

Like it's the sort of thing that if you're in a room and you're looking at the whiteboard

and it's like John talks to Carrey and it's like boy, that seems like an easy scene.

But you have to understand that what that scene has to do is take you from a place of John

knows what Carrey did and John is ahead of the audience.

Carrey knows what Carrey did but thinks she's getting away with it maybe to a place of this

not only has to resolve the relationship between these two characters, but it also has to

successfully sew together the origin stories of John and his mother with Carrey and Noah

and also leave us in a good place about an unattended manhunter running wild and division

one professional football.

Right.

Like what?

So the main thing is, I love it.

To you, the most important thing is to protect division one football, not the White House.

Oh, well, I mean, the sanctity of one is still, you know, we have to save cops.

I mean, that's the one of your major planks of your platform.

100%.

100%.

So, but do you get what I mean though about like, man, if you really dig into the metadata

here, it's just like, I can't believe they got away with it.

Let alone made us feel good, but they did make us feel pretty good.

That scene worked for me.

I think it worked for me after I gave it some thought rather than when I was watching

it.

When I was watching it, I thought we were getting another version of Sandesto tells John

that how and Carrey went to an Italian restaurant in 2000 and 26 and, you know, all these details

about how that, I think the show kind of took over that storytelling mechanism.

This flashback only being told to John by Sandesto, who has been living on a toxic alien

planet since Noah broke him out, but being like, and then how, you know, how and Carrey

went to, you know, became in love after he left prison and had this beautiful relationship

and how tried to make amends.

And he's like, how's all of your life?

I'm pretty into the idea of Sandesto being such a good listener that he was able to convey

that in 2026 or whenever it is, the Italian restaurant in a rush field still has key

Auntie bottles in wicker baskets.

And Sandesto is like, hmm, I also love it.

How is that garlic bread?

Intergalactic criminal mastermind Sandesto is also just a fiend for tea.

He just loves hot gauze.

He loves, I mean, he has to sustain himself.

Sure.

Because I don't think he's pulling fresh carp out of that poison lake.

Well, love to see that Sandesto's group chats.

But that, that scene was a little bit hard for me to get my head around because so much

relatively crucial information was being conveyed by a character who has been living in exile,

who is sort of inexplicably telling John some of this stuff, but then has to be water

boarded to tell him the rest of the story.

So John and Kerry seem worked for me.

And I think that this is an example of perhaps the writing and the direction not being not

necessarily on the same page.

I buy the John jumps to the conclusion that Noah is lying to protect his mother.

And I buy that John has an instinct that he knows how far mothers go to protect their

sons and to also make their sons into what they want them to be or what they think

they need to be.

And John's story is one of rejecting his programming in favor of the ability to, as he says,

to Noah, right?

Like if you're even asking the question, you're kind of further along.

Yes.

The reason it works is because that group of talented writers that you talked about did

the labor of scaffolding a story that begins with a heroic character journey that then

is applicable to the larger super heroic or super villainous plot so that they've sort

of protected themselves from the idea of a plot hole because they've said, look, you buy

this hero.

So can you extend the same grace to the villain?

I think that's very clever.

And I think it works because again, like I came away from this feeling pretty psyched

about how things had gone and about this birth of a new style of land turn and all of that.

I also came away from this being like, wow, it is another bold zag in a season of bold

and surprising zags to make the first 15 minutes of the finale of the first season of

a show, a tender, laden life love story between two characters, like with some waxy hatchy

playing on the speakers.

Like they said a mood and I went, I fell right into it.

But like I do think the two conversations are so deeply entwined because if we were to,

if one of us, and I'm going to say you because you, I think you have more resources in

the beautiful new studio you're in right now, like did the Charlie Day meme, whether you're

like making the the homeland crazy board.

And you were just listing all of the things that it turns out in retrospect season one

of lanterns had to do because even one was just baked into what I just said, which is

I'm pretty psyched about the emergence of John Stewart, a new style of green lantern.

This series had to tell us what an old style of green lantern is.

It had to backfill the entire history of, I mean, it didn't give us a lot of, oh,

and the Guardians and the Korra, which was smart.

But it did have to give us an example of what John wasn't going to be before it let

us understand what John is.

And there are so, so, so many things that it had, that it quote unquote had to do, that

it remains a wonder to me that they had any room to do anything at all that they wanted

to do.

And I feel like ultimately they did.

Yeah, when you think about the amount of story, the amount of like even like seasons

of TV that they wound up condensing without making it feel rushed ever.

I mean, you essentially had an origin story for John Stewart.

You had an origin story for Hal Jordan.

You had an origin story for their partnership.

You got a full mystery series that was set in rushville about the identity of the manhunter

and who was the benefactor and who was the, you know, who is Zoe.

That whole thing culminates with this massive set piece that they then, then don't ever

bother to top.

They never bother to go, what can we do in the second last episode of the last episode?

That would be an action set piece that matches rushville.

What they choose to do is move to this planet, Anton's alien planet, which is obviously

a, you know, projection of the souls of the main characters.

And not it's not literally that, but it is physically a manifestation of the kind of

future in between worlds.

These guys exist in.

And then have a grace note on this relationship between a sheriff and an aging superhero.

And then the, basically digital backup of this superhero's consciousness and his

protégé that they then fucking do nail the Friday night lights.

Like, I love you to junior moment.

So I'm so impressed.

But like there are points where I think in this finale, if I had to say anything, it's

not that I wanted like an explosion or I needed him to put the ring on and do green lantern

stuff.

But everybody was really still like it was a lot of Noah and John sitting in a car

very still talking.

Noah, John and Carrie at the sideline being very still watching suddenly much bigger

offensive lineman block for Noah.

Um, and I did get all of your emails to the people of America about eight on eight football.

And I still have notes.

I also want to say that in, in our defense, we may be projecting a little bit about poor

offensive line play after watching cam turn style jurgens for the last two weekends.

So I think we are, you know, hyper focused on that and what it can do to a structure.

Maybe camdrigans should quit the Eagles and go to turn style.

He should just do it.

I think that's the band, the bongo player.

Yeah.

That's a great point that like I can, it is very, very bold that a show called lanterns

that is really about building green lantern into the new DCU.

You can count on one hand of the number of cool ship moments that the ring does.

John makes the bird.

John makes a watch.

Howl uses it as a shield a couple times.

And then they, the kind of super Zelda tears of the kingdom moment when they build a digger

that digs into the, um, the room with all the dark alien tech in it.

Otherwise, that was it.

And that is a remarkable exercise in restraint.

I also think that it was an exercise in respect and a testament to the enormous amount of caretaking

that this crew seemingly did to make sure that they're quite bold, quite adult story fit

into whatever it is James Gunn is planning on his big crazy making whiteboard in his office.

The way that the show deployed Nathan Filion's guy, Gardner was very clever, but also felt

like very important connective tissue to suggest how these people can exist with each

other in opposition to each other in future movies.

I think it was, it was emotionally resonant.

I, I don't know.

I mean, I, I found it to be a much better story about kids and their parents and their parents

and what they want them to be.

And maybe a great story about a great buddy cop movie or a great buddy action, you know,

story.

Uh, and I found it to be at the end.

It just had like an emotional ballast that I don't find in a lot of superhero things.

Like a lot of the times in superhero stories, the thing that impresses me or the thing

that grabs me is the high level of execution of superhero story.

So it is, you close the portal or we have, you know, the completed the gauntlet or we

reverse the snap or whatever it is that hits.

And this had, this had more to say, I think.

I mean, we're, it had something different to say.

And I think it was ultimately about a lot of the things that, that haunt these writers,

which is, you know, what does it take to be somebody with a lot of responsibility?

You know, and what is it?

What are your parents have to do to you to make you think that's what your role in this

world is?

I think that's very well said.

I want to run through a couple points with you to see where you netted out.

I like to this work for you.

Did this not?

But there's something that is like translatable, like could Apple learn from this because I

feel like that from the time Hal's ring told John that it was on like 10%.

He basically just feasted on us, just started downloading videos, you know what I mean?

Like doing like really, really big data stuff for quite a long time.

And I wonder if there's something interesting here about like, because right now when,

when my iPhone tells me that it's like 20%.

I basically need to compose my last emails, I'll ever send my family because if I don't

find a charger, like that's it, I'm never going to communicate with them again.

Did that did the last charge bump you at all?

I don't think I as a as a device as with a lot of devices that I get.

I did not read the instructions.

I am sure at some point over the last two episodes, some discussion happened about just

do batteries run down slower when you're on Anton's planet.

And I don't think they had that conversation.

He kept being like seven or more minutes of charge.

Junior, he's like, great, I'll row across this lake, walk across this desert, fall through

a hole, and then solve all the crimes.

There was also a lot of like, to what extent is the backup as the hologram being projected

by John without bringing and does his brain have like a much longer battery?

The thing that nagged it me a little bit was.

This is the blackmail.

Yeah, it was the blackmail.

Were you going to bring that up next?

That was next, yeah.

Matt Rool, who is the head coach of the actual college program at Nebraska, the Nebraska

Cornell Skurs football team, I believe had more lines than the waitress in this episode.

And John's mother, which I guess, I mean, maybe it was just like, hey, Matt Rool doesn't

show up unless he gets his sad guard, you know, like it's speaking, speaking rules only.

Uh-huh.

I thought it would be cool if Matt Rool became a manhunter right then.

Yes, or what bad, what if like put this on Sun and he puts the hat on his head and

then his head explodes and then that will carve his nose crystal heart out of his body.

And it's just like, he goes straight to the Rose Bowl.

Yeah, you're next Lincoln Riley.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like there's some larger, larger, ever.

Yes, the battery power of the ring was strange.

I think it was ultimately in service of creating this Sinestro puts a poison pill in the

winter.

If he charges the ring, it means that the hologram goes away forever.

We'll see about that season two.

But the waitress thing, I think that was a very specific large number of dollars that

she wanted.

Um, and she received it.

And I guess I thought her use of the reparations with John while he did raise an eyebrow

at that.

But it was obviously loaded and was never really like discussed again.

She didn't really discuss anything.

She was just like, I think you owe me $300,000 for killing my family.

And do you give it also how had been in town for this whole time?

Apparently every day going out to do something nice to help fix things.

So I feel like, you know, and she was still given him pancakes.

So what's the name of his plant?

Uh, Earl.

Earl, yeah.

Something like that.

Yeah.

I lost the thread with Earl's survival because in the house fire, how apparently is burns,

burns to death essentially are almost burned.

Monday and Damon have talked about this.

Apparently they are like, Earl, somehow Earl is survived.

Yeah.

Somehow Palpatine returned.

Yeah.

He's like, I think an alien plant species is going to be able to make it through the

night.

The plant was pretty stressed about the fire.

The plant was screaming.

The plant was playing my role in a house fire.

It was playing your phone drops down to 20%.

When my phone drops down to 20%, or I'm trying to play behind the Eagles Offensive Line,

you know, yeah, all of it.

The biggest one for me, and I'm really curious where you net it out with it, is man hunters

generally.

Because I do feel even having watched this whole season, maybe would require a rewatch

or would be rewarded by a rewatch.

But the conceit of it was ultimately a little squishy for me.

That man hunters are the worst beings that have ever been created in the history of the

galaxy, the most dangerous creatures they were created by the Guardians as like an elite

assassination squad.

Then they went rogue and just started taking out civilizations because that's their programming

and stopped me if I'm wrong about this.

They were all gone except for the one that crash landed on Earth with the pink skin

guy or an ovensurer who gave hell his ring.

That one is Zoe, who seems not really that evil, just sort of self protective in a way

and wants to just, you know, live a nice life.

That's what I say about all of our AI models.

100%.

They're just curious.

They're just looking around.

Is one of the Australian banking system?

Can I get in there for a second?

What's air traffic control really like from the inside?

I bet I can't move it.

Zoe is tired of her life man hunting.

And so basically asks to be killed.

This is how John considers it that it was a mercy kill, right?

Yes.

And then Noah is himself a immaculate pinky conception man hunter.

Yes.

He's immediately implanted and grown in the body of a random woman who's just arrived

from Gotham City who immediately has identified as the perfect vessel for this child.

And then Noah's programming is to be really, really good at football, but also inside of

his head there is the sound of a thousand dead stars screaming.

And his plan is then to get revenge on behalf of Zoe and kill more guardians.

I mean, his plan is to get into the White House and Marshall, the armed services of the

United States against.

Oh, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

And you say what?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I didn't get that far man.

He's just a kid.

And you know, it's like he loves playing eight on eight football with his thin offensive line.

And here's what I will say.

That didn't really make sense for me because then ultimately it was just bent into a storyline

about letting kids make their own destiny, which is useful.

No, the man hunterian candidate is pretty cool.

If you just been sitting on that or that just hit me, it just hit me.

Wow.

Look at you.

Iron chef in the kitchen, just with the ingredients provided, you cook up a masterpiece.

I did agree with one major plank of lanterns political platform, which is that I 100% believe

that a driven manufactured lunatic with the sound of a thousand dead stars screaming in

his brain would be a quarterback.

More specifically, I do believe you could make the case that there are current quarterbacks

playing in the league who are clearly man hunters.

Is that quarterback in the room of us right now or like that quarterback plays for our

team?

Like there are a plenty of Jalen Hertz press conferences where his attempts to sound

like a human being sound like Steve Carell trying to talk like he's hooked up with a woman

before.

Do you know what I mean?

His programming is so specific and so deeply alien that there is something there that rings

true, even if I bumped slightly on the execution.

I don't know if you had other quarterbacks that you feel like might also be suspect and

we'd have to walk through those alien hunting.

Joe borrows given a little bit of man hunter.

I mean, I'm very, I'd still stand by Joe borrows cool as a take, but he has a little

bit of like a processing at a high level vibe to him.

Yeah, but I think he.

I mean, they're all crazy.

You have to be crazy to play that position, right?

But I feel like it's less Joe borrows because Joe borrows has some cool.

I mean, Jalen Hertz is very cool.

He's just also a psychopath and like I would believe Brock Birdie before I would be

interesting to just go through the entire NFL starting quarterbacks deciding which one

are man hunters and then release that as a cliff.

Yeah.

And have people be like, what the fuck is this podcast about?

Or I would only be like, finally, this podcast has achieved its final goal.

Fine, let's go.

Darrell, no, pretty yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do the MC West cousins yes?

No, Mendoza yes, cousins no.

No, I think it's the other way.

See, I think I think it's a misdirect.

I think it's a misdirect.

I think Herbert no.

It's this kind of, it's this kind of disagreement that made OAS so vulnerable to a 17 year old

breaking the most important work criminal in the history of the universe out of space

prison and taking him to another planet.

Dude, it sounds like, because I think as we're nitpicking, it sounds like we're like,

I don't, I don't feel like I'm praising the show enough.

I love it.

I just haven't been able to divorce the what was good about a conversation from

the not to sound like an offensive coordinator to the this was a good process in the sense

that like, I can't believe they pulled this off.

And I was so, I was such a fan from the beginning of the good faith intention to try to make

something good in our broken IP landscape.

That said, again, this is going to sound like a nitpick, but as we pivot forward, part

of me is, I don't want to say I'm concerned, but like there was so much to do to get to

this point, shut out, surf Dracula.

In season two, I would love it if this same creative team could be like, and now we will

continue to advance this story.

And I do have a sense, and I'm actually kind of lost in terms of what's been announced

and what's been rumored and what we actually know.

But I feel confident saying that there will likely be a season two.

This has been a huge hit.

The season is constructed.

Despite being eight episodes about guys with powerful rings, it is as TV as it gets with

we end this season being like, oh my God, how's really gone?

I think he's that John's really leaving Rushville, but he has created a whole new runway

for this character to be the terrestrial detective who has superpowers, but a different

creed than the regular Greenland turns.

It's a great setup.

But is the question as a modern fan of TV, should we just be grateful for this because

nothing more is promised?

The future is not promised.

Or should we be concerned that all of this beautiful setup is now part of a relay race

to hand over John Stewart to James Gunn for his appearance in Man Up Tomorrow to hand

off some of the storybread crumbs that have been dropped here for other creators, whether

it's in movies or in TV shows still to come.

And that the idea of, it's just, you know what it is, it's just a moment speaking of,

stories being told in broken timelines, like in a classic TV timeline, it would be so

exciting to get, and again, because we're not in the same city, we couldn't actually do

this, but to get Chris Mundy, Damon Lindelof, Tom King, Justin, Vanessa, get them all down

and be like, guys, how excited are you?

Are you back in the room to tell us what you want to do next for the continuing adventures

of John?

And I don't think TV works like that anymore.

And even if these guys were doing a second season, the timeline isn't the timeline

that we're used to or that we are now primed to be excited to expect, which is like even

if they were going to do it again, when would John fly back?

2028, 2029?

We don't know.

So I think that that's the other thing that this leaves me in, which is like, man, they

really cracked the code of how to do this shit on TV, but now it goes into movies and

now it goes into the larger DCU world-building stuff.

I'm not super worried about that.

Like I know that Gunn is, I mean, they've got the next Superman coming out next year,

and then Gunn has said that he is already deep in writing his next movie, whatever that

one is, whether it's Superman 3 or he's taking a break from DC to do something different.

David Ellison, right now, heard you say is James Gunn taking a break from DC to do something

different and he's just dispatched like Skydance House drones to make sure that that's not

actually happening.

They got to make 30 movies a year else they get penalized.

Like they got a, he's got a right.

Superman 28 coming in 2027.

Sorry.

I sometimes sound like a broken record because I think that this model has been kind of abandoned

probably because it's fiscally irresponsible, but Aaron Pierre is only going to get, I

think, only turn into a bigger deal.

I think time is of the essence.

I would love to see them try to do some sort of Sherlock 3 episode thing with this character.

I don't necessarily want him to be a reacher, but you guys did just invent reacher again.

You know what I mean?

Like you have a guy who goes to towns and fixes shit.

Instead of doing the broken record thing that I have become about like, well, they really

cracked it in the room or whatever.

Let me just say the most pure joy TV thing about the show.

Kelly McDonald, Aaron Pierre, Kyle Chandler, to say nothing of Ulrich Thompson who's awesome

in his limited screen time as Sinestro.

These three gave not career best work necessarily, but absolute supernova holy shit these guys

are awesome.

They wrote them great characters.

They cast the shit out of them and everybody was like in the pocket, you know, reacting

to each other, playing characters week to week.

What TV is supposed to do is either I'm not Aaron Pierre has had a runway and is a very

respected and cool guy, but like TV creates stars.

And I think where Aaron Pierre is today, Monday versus eight weeks ago is different in American

pop culture awareness.

Similarly, everyone loves Kyle Chandler, but like the outpouring of excitement of like,

these one of the realest ones we've got has reached a different level of intensity and

that's awesome.

And similarly for Kelly McDonald, who's been great for 30 years and this is a great showcase

for her that takes much more advantage of her wit and charm than boardwalk empire.

She was good in it, but kind of out of set, tough go.

That's what TV is supposed to do, man.

And like part of me just wants to get more of it.

Call me as her client the way I'm shouting for abundance.

But like if that's not where we're at, I think it's probably worth instead parking the

parking the bus and being like, okay, he's going to be in movies now.

At least we had this because it was cool.

Did you feel like that objectively very lovely grace note of before John charges up the

last interaction?

Like what did I say to carry last?

How?

And John says I love you and the hologram, why whether or not he is deducing that John

is speaking for himself or whether or not he just wants to say it back to John goes,

I love you to junior or I love you junior before he glitches out.

Obviously like very, very he's doing.

Did you think that the show and that relationship between a digital, uh, basically a backup consciousness

set 10 years before I believe they.

The show is taking place, right?

I think he last updated it before he went to like it was when he last used him was in

that last rush fill day.

Did you think it was earned?

Did you think it worked?

Yes.

Yeah.

I did.

I mean, I, I hope the Kyle Chandler said it.

That's what I was about to say.

It's like it's these guys and it also because it's Kyle Chandler and this hits differently.

Like there were rumors that they went to like Josh Brolin who's awesome, but like the thing

that comes baked in with familiar beloved people is it kind of does some of the runway work

to get you ready to have them do certain things, meaning you cast Kyle Chandler and you want

him to coach up a promising young man and tell him that he loves him and look him in

the eye, you know, and that's baked in even when he's behaving in ways that Kyle Chandler

characters haven't traditionally behaved on television.

So if he had said that in episode four, I think it would have been a similar reaction to

fans, even if it hadn't been quote unquote earned because we want that from him.

So stretching it out to the end, he was always going to land there and it was always going

to feel good.

I'll let you go, brother, because I know you got to get back to work, but you're going

to be back in LA for Thursday and we'll talk a little bit about the first three episodes

of East to Eden and just about whatever comes to our mind.

If you guys have any questions for us, I mean, I

answer some questions today, but the mailbag is always open and it's the watch at Spotify.com.

Andy, thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you for having me today.

This has been a real pleasurable conversation.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let's continue it in perpetuity.

Let's continue.

You know what?

Let's you and I continue to do the work.

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Hi guys, I'm back.

I thought I would run through a couple of stories I saw over the weekend on entertainment

news websites that I frequent both day and night.

And also answer a couple of interesting mailbag questions that we got.

These are not necessarily like CR AMAs kind of things.

They're just ones that jumped off the page and that I wanted to hit up.

First of all, in the news, there's really only one story that anybody would ever want

me to comment on today.

And that is the announcement that Sikario 3 is happening.

I'm in a weird spot.

We got heat to Miami Vice 85 and now Sikario 3.

So a couple of my favorite, I guess now franchises and properties are coming back sooner than

later.

Sikario 3 is interesting because it's a question of who do you think is the author of this

series, which is I guess it is a series now.

In my mind, it is the perfect union of Taylor Sheridan sensibility shaped into a feature.

And then I would imagine shaped in both like cutting away some of the script stuff, reshaping

characters, re-editing things by Danny Villanue, who obviously brought with Roger DeKinsen

incredibly distinctive visual sensibility to Sikario.

And I also like Sikario 2, which Taylor Sheridan also wrote.

And Stefano Suleima directed and had the feeling of a kind of surreal nightmare spaghetti western

with Benicio's O'Thorro in the second half of the film.

I think the first half is a little bit more militaristic.

But you get my point.

I think that there was like a place for this series to go if they had consistently made

it where a different director could come in and bring a different sensibility.

But I do think Taylor Sheridan is fairly essential to the entire project.

And now this third film has been announced.

The exciting part is that not only are Benicio Del Toro and Josh Burle in back as Alejandro

and Graver, the two sort of shadowy, deep state operatives, but Emily Bluntsbeck playing

Kate Macer, which is her character from the first film.

And obviously like you get to the end of the first movie and her character has been

absolutely shattered.

So I'm deeply fascinated to know what they do with this person.

And Emily Blunts' participation to me suggests that they're very excited about whatever

story they've cracked.

The interesting thing to me is who cracked it?

Because it's not Taylor Sheridan.

It's Stephen Knight who is one of the most prolific and successful writers in Hollywood

right now.

I believe he's writing the Bond film.

But was writing the Star Wars movie that was supposed to be about Ray?

I don't know if that's still happening.

And his written countless other things, including obviously Peaky Blinders, House of Guinness,

and My Beloved S.A.S. Roqueiros.

So I'm at once very excited because Stephen Knight knows what he's doing.

I think his, the sheer number of bats he takes means average is a little lower.

It's not like Taylor Sheridan's not busy.

So if he had been writing it, I think it obviously would have been a huge lift.

I'm pretty surprised.

I thought some of the rumors suggested that is Josh Berlin who had been on press tours

for dog stars and probably whale fall had, you know, getting asked about a lot of projects.

And I think he said that they were, they were really going to do this.

But it's sound, I thought it sounded like Taylor was going to write it.

Look, I think it'll be good.

I mean, I think it'll be good.

Who the fuck knows?

But I trust this group of people, the director that they've found.

So Ville Nouveau directed the first one, Stefano Salimo, who did a bunch of 0000,

which is one of my favorite series from the last few years, directed the second one.

Patrick McKinley is directing this third one.

And he is an emerging talent right now who directed a film with Ethan Hawking Russell Crowe,

which is in some theaters right now called The Weight, which I would really love to see.

And it is being heralded as kind of a throwback treasure of Sierra Madre, sorcerer style,

very, very action-heavy, but like not action in a fast and furious way,

but just sort of like physical movement action, people navigating a landscape.

I think he has the chops, for sure.

But I think it's a lot to live up to.

Another thing I just wanted to talk about, because it was a fun thing I did this weekend,

but kind of ties into this revival of stuff I love.

The theme, I guess, that we're doing here, is I hadn't saw the privilege, honestly,

of going to Westwood to see Michael Mann present his final director's cut.

That was what it was called of Miami Vice's 2006 future starring Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx.

This was an incredible experience.

The movie looks outstanding.

It was on this huge screen.

The Westwood is such a beautiful old theater.

I think it holds like a thousand people.

Jerry Brockheimer was there.

Michael Mann was there.

Jason Wrightman introduced the film that I saw Michael Tubleymson,

obviously, is in heat.

I saw him there.

There was like 30 people who worked on the Miami Vice movie in 2006 were there.

So it was obviously a very lovely evening.

I thought the movie was fucking rocked.

But the really fascinating thing that I experienced was this is now kind of

turning into Michael Mann's Blade Runner.

He has a theatrical cut that when it came out in 2006,

it took a while for people to wrap their heads around.

Let's put it that way.

I don't even know really if I have a hand on the Bible.

If I remember like everything I felt about that movie when I first saw in theaters,

I saw it with Fennesy in, you know, 20 years ago now.

I know that it starts in this incredible way,

where the universal logo comes up and there's a quick black screen and then

num slash encore by Jay-Z and Lincoln Park starts and it's in a nightclub in Miami and it's

cacophonous and there's just hundreds of people and Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx are on this

undercover mission and nobody knows.

And you're like, what the fuck is going on?

What is happening?

Who are these guys?

Why are they, who are they pursuing?

What's happening?

And then immediately out of that case, they are brought into another case involving John

Hawks and the immersion in the world, I think is part of the idea is that like you were thrown in head

first.

On the other hand, I think for people who maybe found that confusing and it doesn't matter.

Michael Manis has since done a director's cut and now in this final director's cut has added

what he says he always intended to be the opening of the film, which is a go fast boat race

and a little bit of expository setup for this deal that they're trying to blow up at this nightclub

that you see in the theatrical versions first scene.

This is a long way of saying is he is tinker man.

He is tinkering with this movie and he did some stuff with the beginning just kind of

doubling down on the director's cut.

But then I would have to do a forensic analysis of previous cuts of the film.

The most sort of pronounced difference is the end.

Now, have you never seen Miami Vice or if you are trying to hold on to the idea of seeing Miami

Vice, the final director's cut without me talking about it, feel free to skip a chapter here

because I am going to talk about this a little bit.

So at the end of the film, the the the theatrical cut and the director's cut.

It's just this beautiful moment or Colin Farrell who's an undercover cop who's into deep with

Isabella, the lawyer for a drug lord played by Gongli, Isabella's played by Gongli.

She's discovered that he's a police officer after this huge climactic shootout.

He abscans from the scene of this shootout with her.

They go to a house.

While this is happening, there's cross cutting going back and forth between

Crockett with his love interest and Tubbs with his love interest, Trudy is another cop.

She's been in a firefighting in an explosion and is hanging on for her life at the hospital.

Magwai is playing.

It's cross cutting back and forth.

This cross cutting back and forth.

The theme of this movie is an undercover cop who gets so deep into his undercover life that he

doesn't know what's real anymore and who's the projection and who's the real person.

And it almost feels like he is called back to the real rock, the real center of his life,

maybe even the real love of his life, which is Tubbs, which is played by Jamie Foxx.

And the last shot of the movie is Crockett going into the hospital.

Always thought that was great.

This final director's cut puts Tubbs and Trudy in one section of the ending and Isabella and

Crockett is the final moments.

It's the whole last few minutes of this movie.

And it also gets rid of a failed raid on the drug lord's house in Colombia.

So for people who need that kind of tied up, I think that might be of note.

But when man spoke about the movie, he was talking about how for him,

the sort of central idea of this movie is this doomed love and these two people who

had some time together and time is luck and their luck ran out.

And there's this great, great moment as the boat taking Isabella to,

her exit strategy is driving away.

And Gongli is walking towards the dock, but on her on the boat.

So it's almost like she's walking back towards Colin Farrell.

And Colin Farrell is sort of walking towards the boat from the dock.

And it looks like these two people are trying to become closer as they get further and further away.

It's an amazing image.

It's a fucking incredible image.

And it doesn't hurt that Magui auto rock is playing.

And a lot of people are pretty pissed off about this.

It's been a fascinating weekend of reading about people's reactions to this film.

And man's version of it because I think what happened was my Ami Vice was a movie that was largely

pushed aside when it came out.

I mean, people clearly saw there was an incredibly high level of expertise and an incredibly

specific vision that man was working with.

But it took a while for it to become this touchstone of modern cinema.

And really one of the most discussed movies of my like professional life,

so last 15, 20 years, I mean, my Ami Vice comes up almost as much as heat sometimes.

And there's been so much really great writing done about this movie.

But I think because it was a reclamation project by a generation of critical thinkers and

about of online movie fans, that it's their movie now.

And they don't want Michael Mann screwing with their ideas of what is special about that film.

Now for me personally, I think I get to have all three versions.

I get to have the theatrical cut that opens with Jay-Z and Lincoln Park.

I get to have the director's cut that adds changes, does some different things.

And I have this final director's cut, which I think is actually a pretty

poignant statement about wherever Michael Mann's head is at where

maybe he's not as interested in the structure of these guys' lives and what brings them together

and the code that they live by and what they owe each other and what they've promised each other.

And maybe he's more interested in this kind of

wistful, deeply romantic love affair.

I don't mean I don't think it's like one or the other, but I definitely thought

it was an interesting aesthetic choice and a different storytelling choice.

And I love that I get to have both.

Some folks are not super psyched about that, but it's Michael Mann's movie.

And I don't know, sometimes I think that I really try to avoid acting like I know better

than the people who are writing or making a piece of art that I am taking in.

I try to like take it on its face value.

Like, yes, I can sometimes be a jerk about it, but I want to try and think about,

okay, this is what I got and what did that person, how did it make me feel?

And what do I ascribe to the author and authors of the film and what it was their intention?

And that's why movie like Miami Vice has had such a long tale is because you can watch

you can watch it for so many different reasons for the texture, for the sound, for the performances,

for the writing that's buried underneath the scakafuna sound.

But it's interesting that sometimes people decide like that's no, this is the finished article.

Like, this is the movie I'm done iterating on it.

And this is something that Mann has been doing with other films of his.

David Fincher has been getting some grief for his meticulous cleanup jobs of some of his films on 4K.

You know, this is something that I think we will see other filmmakers do because the technology

is only getting better and better.

And to some extent, they can't help themselves.

And to some extent, it gives you the audience or the consumer a reason to buy this new thing

is to see what James Cameron or David Fincher or Michael Mann wanted to add or take away from a movie.

But to me, it just makes the movie alive.

And you can always have the version of the film that you like best.

You just have to pay whatever you have to pay to get it.

And I highly recommend people to check out this version of my Amoevice.

That was a very long, long way of saying this movie rocks and you should watch all three versions.

I did want to hit a couple of mail-back questions before I got out of here because we got some good ones

this week. One was a very good Newsy one.

I wouldn't have thought so, but it wound up being Newsy.

Danielle wrote in and it was a very simple one.

Where the hell did Matthew Weiner go?

Matthew Weiner obviously somewhat back in the news because of Mad Men's

high ranking in the New York Times top 100 shows of the Century List.

I believe Mad Men came in second or third.

And he has not really been in the mix since 2018 when he did the Romanovs.

Obviously had a lot of controversy around him after I believe late 2017 articles about

his behavior in the Mad Men writers room.

Has it kind of been not really heard from that very much since then?

And then very quietly, I would say for an announcement of this stature, it was announced last week

that he is apparently making a TV show with Eddie Murphy.

He is going to be making a show called The Chairman, which is Murphy's first ever scripted

television show. Weiner is attached to right and direct and executive proof of product.

This is all from the deadline. And there are no details, but I'm going to guess Eddie Murphy plays

a chairman of a board of a golf club. I have no idea. But it's notable that this comes from 101

studios. So this is the studio with David Glasser producing a bunch of Taylor Sheridan stuff.

And this was obviously a huge feather in Paramount. It's cap. It essentially was the backbone

of Paramount Plus. And 101 studios moved to Universal Peacock as did Taylor Sheridan. And this is

the first announced project that they're working on. And it's kind of fascinating because like 10

years ago, I think I would have lost my mind if Matthew Weiner was going to make a TV show with Eddie

Murphy. And now I am too, but in a different way, because I kind of think Eddie Murphy needs

something like this. Eddie Murphy, outside of like the documentaries about Eddie Murphy and appearing

on Saturday Live and being Eddie Murphy. In terms of his films, his film output, like I don't

really think he's had anything that's made a deep cultural impact since Dreamgirls.

You know, things that people liked and things that were better than others. And he's obviously

basically the goat when it comes to comic comedic screen acting. But like he hasn't had a real like

grab you by the lapel moment in a minute. And Weiner has been I guess in exile for a variety of

reasons. So this isn't an interesting like these two guys may need each other, but they also like

this is is this a coup for peacock or is this an interesting flyer? I guess that's the question.

In 2016, I would have been like, wow, holy shit, like a streamer just signed up. The guy who made

madmen and the dude who was in Beverly Hills cop to make a scripted drama, by the way,

is the way this is being described. So that's even more fascinating. And now I don't know,

2026 Eddie Murphy and 2026 Matthew Weiner. Two flavors that are either going to make like the

most amazing thing ever or it's just not going to work. I believe this is in development. So let's

not go and you know, don't cancel all your plans for next year. I'm not sure this is going to

make it, but it was certainly a fascinating for fascinating announcement and answer Daniel's question.

Last one here before I get out of here was a lengthy but very interesting question from Matthew.

And I'll just read the whole thing. This is about slow horses, but it's also about the idea of

adaptation for TV. If you don't want to know anything about slow horses, even I'll limit it to

what has been shown so far this season. If you're catching up, but this is spoilers for season six

of slow horses so far is in this question. So if you're if you're all good on that, talk to you on

Thursday, but Matthew writes in long time listener first time caller. Thank you Matthew.

I'm generally genuinely confused by your slow horses coverage. Okay. Confused enough that a guy who has

never sent a listener letter to anyone feels compelled to send one now. Slow horses is an adaptation

of the books, but it's adapted nearly the same way the early seasons of Game of Thrones were

adapted from George Martins. Some of your biggest praise and critiques of the plot are framed like

they are writers room inventions when nearly everyone is beat for beat from Mick Heron who is the

author of the slow horses novel series. On this week's pod, that would be last week's pod.

On this week's pod about season six episode three, you guys were surprised that the whole season

springs from Diana's screw up and said that you didn't know the show quote had that in its bag,

I believe that was your boy saying that was me. You called bringing Sid back after four years of

pairing her after four years and pairing her with river, incredible TV making and what TV is

supposed to do. And last season's accidental killing of the politician with the pain can was the

show's low point. All three straight out of the books, Diana's plot line and Sid's return are

both direct pulls from the Slao house book and co-dropping the paintball the paint on gimbals

head is wholesale out of London rules. When you covered Thrones, you didn't praise Benny

often twice for having the balls to kill off the starts with the red wedding. I suppose I should

have said spoilers for Game of Thrones or knock their choice to have Tyrian kill Tywin on the

toilet. Why are you doing that now with slow horses and not crediting Mick Heron more with the ideas

in the engine. I love the books and the TV show and the showrunners deserve credit for what they

have chosen to compress cut and combine as well as for how scenes actually play. But the boldness

of the big plot decisions belong to Heron and so does the blame when ones don't work for you.

That is all good, man. I think that that is like a really decent critique of the way we have

talked about the show. I have a couple of responses here. I think we're both right. I think probably Andy

and I lean a little o'thorest in our thinking and our conversation when we're saying like, oh,

like I know we did this on lanterns. I know that we have been like if this was like a Damon

Lundelophism or it's obviously Chris Mundy did this because this is what we recognize from Ozark.

There's a writer's room. There are directors. There are comic books that's based on to some extent.

Tom King is in the room with them. When it comes to slow horses, you're absolutely right. I have

read some of the slow horses books. I don't think Andy has. I'm not sure. I have read them in a while

and I did not read the complete run partially because I was like, I'm enjoying slow horses

the TV shows so much that I don't want to ruin this for myself. I have since kind of done so. I

have ruined it for myself. I'm trying not to ruin it for listeners though. I think it's important

to watch the show and take the show in as a piece of television. I think that your point is good,

which is like if you're watching slow horses and the first season happens, you know if you've read

those books, Sid comes back at some point and you know that Diana does not always seem unflappable.

I would argue that if I would argue that it's still good TV making, I would argue that it's still

getting Kristen Scott Thomas to play Diana and play her in a certain way and having her be

for Kristen Scott Thomas's purposes maybe patient in this character is going to maybe seem a little

bit one note over the course of a couple of seasons and then is going to have a rise to power. And

in the case of Sid, dude, I'm just telling you man, like there's another world where Olivia

Cook does not have time to do slow horses or is just she's in verity or she is in she is in prime time

or something like there's a there's definitely a world where the people who are on slow horses just

can't do slow horses anymore. And I think it's the obviously enjoyable experience people are

having the Gary Oldman and Jack Loudon and all these actors are like, I will do this for as long

as I possibly can. And then there's also the foresight by Apple and by the people who are making

the show to say we're going to pay off Sid four seasons later, five seasons later. That's

incredible TV making even if it is Mick Herron's idea. I mean, a less confident crew would probably

have tipped off that Sid's alive. They may have just had a runner of like where's Sid or what happened

to Sid or did anybody go to anything like I know that they had the funeral and all that and like

Diana basically fixed her death, but like it's still good TV making, but you're right in that we

probably give Will Smith and now Gabby Chappie like a little bit more credit than we would give Mick

Herron when yes, it is a very faithful adaptation of a series of wonderful books. But when you're

talking about this stuff, I mean, by the same token, I could just spoil the end of season six right now.

Okay. And I we're trying to enjoy this as a week to week thing as I think Mick Herron would even

like us to rather than just be like, Oh, what an interesting adaptation of a book that I think 50%

of the people watching slow horses haven't read because now this show is kind of become its own

institution. So it's always a delicate line. Like we're going to have it talking about let's say

Zoe Kazan makes one some dove. Andy and I are going to have a hard time being like, what Zoe Kazan's

decision, what is Laramant Mertris decision, how do you talk about something when you know what's

going to happen because you've read the original work? It's just a fine line we walked, but I thought

that this question in particular was interesting because there are very few things that have the

architecture like Game of Thrones did and slow horses does. And perhaps it's fair enough that we should

maybe look a little bit more towards Mick Herron when it comes to some of the twists and turns and

character beats that we praise the show for. So congratulations to both the slow horses creative

team but also the the creator himself, Mick Herron. We're going to be back on Thursday as I

mentioned when talking to Andy earlier about lanterns, we're going to do the first three episodes

of East of Eden. And I highly recommend people check it out. It's really it's really been a breath

of fresh air to me on TV and especially on Netflix. And we'll try and find some other stuff maybe

we'll catch up on youth, maybe we'll catch up on war, you know, a lowdown is coming back soon.

So we have a bunch of stuff to talk about in the coming weeks. Thank you so much for listening.

Thanks to Kai and Kai for producing and we will be back on Thursday.