The Patriots Are Back, the Chargers Are Done, and More Week 4 Story Lines

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What's up everybody?

It is the ringer NFL show Tom Pellicero, Shield Capati, a Billy Gill joining the momentarily.

Are the Falcons the best team in the NFL?

If you had no frame reference and all you did was watch two straight national TV performances, you might think this looks like a really tough team.

When we make it the Saints, when we make it that division, after Bryce Young lit it up as well, we'll talk about all that on the show.

I'll also talk about some of the big moments from Sunday.

Shields got his after further review or under further review upon further review.

It's something like that.

It's got a segment.

Some of the big topics that we really should be talking about.

We got quarterback injuries.

We got quarterback bounce backs.

Lots more starts after this.

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So at the time we all decided on the group text that it was probably just we were ready to start the podcast.

With about six minutes left on the clock.

Falcons 422 yards of offense, five touchdowns in the box score by B Robinson, either B. John or Brian.

And if you woke up and had a fantasy game that need to be sorted out, you might have to do a little further investigation.

Let's just put it this way, Shield.

The Falcons are the first two weeks with Cooper rush, the third stringer, a quarterback.

Completely different in every regard since Michael Penn, X Jr. got back.

And I would say Michael, X Jr. has been solid.

He's tonight's game against the Saints.

I think it was about as efficient if we've seen him play, but it just seems like having him there has unlocked everything else.

And they look like a real team that you got at least talking about in the playoff conversation.

Yeah, different doesn't feel strong enough.

I mean, it's a reminder of how quickly things can change those first two weeks were two of the worst offensive performances by any team in games this season.

The last two weeks have literally been top 10 performances league wide for any offense in a game this season.

They look unstoppable.

I mean, when they don't score, it's almost been a surprise these last two weeks.

So I was making jokes about archvanting wanting to play for the Falcons, maybe next year, two weeks ago.

And now I sort of think that the Falcons are the favorites in the NFC South.

So yes, things can change quickly.

It's only week four.

Thanks will change by week six, week eight, week 10 and so on.

But for no team or so, then the Falcons in the first month of the season.

Yeah, we were joking for weeks.

How this is a team that could be getting arch and solving their quarterback problem.

And it seems like they had their solution the whole time.

They've had their quarterback.

It's Michael Pennix and he just wasn't.

He wasn't well, but now he is well.

And they'd look like a totally different team.

I mean, I think, Jill, you're right.

They're probably the favorite in the division.

And it's obviously reactionary after two weeks and after one, like blow out game.

But we also thought that the Saints were a nice little story, you know, a couple of weeks ago.

And they completely blew the Saints out.

We watched yesterday where the Panthers had a nice Sunday night football performance.

Like this could be a team that could make some noise.

It could be a fun little team.

And now the Falcons a day later, like, I don't know about this.

Panthers game.

I don't know about you guys.

I was looking at the calendar, I was looking at the schedule.

They already played once, but I've already gone to week 18 and I've circled that.

And I said, you know what?

This might be a game that gets flexed into the Sunday night football game.

The division is on the line.

And I think it's, I know it's just we've fought, right?

But what game is that?

You're saying you're saying Falcons, Panthers?

Falcons, Panthers.

I mean, the NSC North could be on the line.

Like a live onsite pod or something.

Tom, Tom, live onsite pod.

I don't know if we do have the budget for that yet.

I'm not sure we're getting there.

We'll slowly close to it.

Layin L or where's that where the Charlotte?

Yeah, I could probably make a little road trip.

You'll find it.

I'll try to make some content.

Well, we'll put on the back burner for now, I guess.

Yeah.

Uh, Saints meanwhile, that was rough.

This was the team that I think a lot of people.

It was kind of the hip team to be into, right?

Based on how they finished last season.

I mean, I thought Tyler Schuck, who was under total duress, the entire game.

I was impressed by how well he moved around.

I mean, he easily could have been sound how many times he was sacked in the end,

but could have been sacked twice then many.

Could have getting himself out of, you know, bad situations.

Chris Alave played well in that game.

The Saints defense though.

I know that it's hard just like we saw with the Packers,

when you're trying to tackle B. John Robinson, it's easier said than done.

Shield, but it just on a night that it was supposed to be this celebration.

And maybe it's just made more on the broadcast than it is in person,

but it seemed like the crowd, you know, was amped up.

I'm not even sure.

Trombone Shorty at half time had the night.

Uh, he was expecting based on how subdued that crowd had to be just the defense

got absolutely, you know, ripped to shreds in this game.

Which again, B. John's doing that to people.

But if you're the Saints now and you're one in three,

then there's some concerns that you're, you're having to address.

I would think on that side of the ball.

It's the worst game in the season.

You're right.

It came at a bad time where the crowds amped up and you're on national TV.

This isn't the team they've been through the first three weeks of the season.

I mean, they were very competitive against Detroit.

That came down to the last play.

They go to Baltimore and win that game.

So I'm with you.

I still think they have something they can hang their hat on most weeks,

which is their passing game and Chuck's going to push the ball down field.

And the receivers are going to get be good.

Maybe they get Jordan Tyson back at some point this season to add kind of

a third pass catcher there.

But yeah, I think they're better than they showed today.

I don't think they're going to be a team that just gets blown out weekend and

week out.

Because I think the passing game's going to be good enough to keep them in a lot of

these games.

Meanwhile, as we sit here, I just say Tweet is 123 left.

And apparently Chris Lave just got hurt.

Why is Chris Lave in the game that they're down 28 points on?

That's something I don't get.

That is like a league wide thing that I don't get where coaches have this

mentality of, you know, because they're preaching all week.

We're in a fight to the final whistle.

Defend every plate of grass.

And then I watch some of these games that are blowouts.

And sometimes it happens with the team that's winning, you know, Kyle Shanahan for

all his greatness up yelling at the TV at times.

Christian McAfry does not need to be getting a carry in the fourth quarter.

And there's always at least one of these every season.

Hopefully this one's not serious, but coaches do it anyway.

Yeah, I don't really understand that.

It's a league wide thing.

Well, keep an eye on that.

I normally I wouldn't just bring up a tweet in the middle of a recorded podcast,

but since we're literally talking about how the game was over, I'm struggling to

find the explanation for how a guy with his injury history would still be on the

field.

You know, through news, it's just cut it to 22.

I don't know if we should write this one up just yet.

He seems okay.

Took a, he took a hit and walking it off.

Quoting Nick Underhill.

So crisis subverted on that point.

There is something to be said for the panic that ensues in September about a variety of

different things.

And everyone buried the Falcons, obviously, out of the gate.

People buried the Patriots, buried Drake May to a degree that seemed, I don't know,

a little bit presumptuous three games into a season with the AFC champs.

And they come out in Buffalo.

I tried in the suite on subset.

Of course, you can subscribe to to tamp down some of that.

She'll talk to a lot of people familiar with what's going on.

There was not like panic about Drake.

You know, it's shoulder, it's variable.

It's like, so it's none of that stuff.

Like it's not playing well.

He's had a little bit of bad luck, bad decisions.

He's pressing.

He still had a couple in that game against Buffalo.

But you saw the real Drake May in the second half.

The same guy that everybody fell in love with a year ago.

That's a Patriots team that's still going to be really well coach.

They went in there and made statements.

I thought on both sides, the ball shield and all of a sudden now,

I mean, I think you at least have to have the real conversation of are the

Patriots or the bills.

Again, they just face off head to head.

But who's the favorite in that division?

Yeah, you had written that, you know, it's, it's had nothing to do with the

shoulder.

Like you mentioned, it's bad luck.

He's pressing.

He's making bad decisions.

It felt to me reading that like art.

It's between the years a little bit.

And I thought it was so interesting how they approached this game where early on,

they had a fourth and three where you can kick the field goal, you know, get on the

point, you're get on the board, you're on the road.

And they go for it.

And he gets it.

And in the third quarter to tight game again, they could say, all right, let's go ahead,

kick the field goals fourth and three.

And they're like, no, let's go for it and put it in our quarterbacks.

Hand even the last possession they have where they're trying to ice the game away.

A lot of teams in that situation are thinking just run the ball, make the other team use

timeouts, run the clock.

And they came out throwing it.

And he's, you know, play action bootleg and he completes the past there.

So it felt like there was so much in that game organizationally that they wanted to remind

him. We believe in you.

Remember the guy you were last year, you're still that guy, your shoulders fine.

You've made it.

You've had a few bad games here.

It's okay.

It's week four.

And just watching main the first three weeks, like just watching him talk to the media

and that kind of thing.

You're like, kind of is confidence does seem to be a little bit shot for a guy who said

so much success so early in his career.

But I think what they did it worked out.

He played well, like you said, we could always spend this one of, you know, different ways,

Billy, because there's like like he throws an interception.

You know, he has a fumble.

He had multiple fumbles in that game.

They, they recover one of them.

If FDN Chism doesn't make a one handed grab, are we having the same conversations?

Incredible, Caz, we might be having conversations like, oh, you know,

may add a couple turnovers there.

Patriots lose another close one, but that's not the reality.

And I think that's big for his confidence and obviously big for their season.

It seemed to be a point of emphasis to what you were saying is that they were reminding

him all week like, hey, these are the quarterbacks.

You're at that level with them.

You're at the Josh Allen level.

You're at the same level all these are quarterbacks.

You said the three fumbles.

He only lost one of them.

I mean, that's luck.

The interception completely not his fault.

Like that was one of the flukiest intercepted you've ever seen where he throws the ball.

It's not a good throw, but it was a fluke.

Yeah, I mean, what happened?

Dogs has to make a miraculous catch, which he kind of does.

Then hits the ground.

The ball bounces out goes right to a bill, which at the time was also bad luck because they

look like they were going to go into the half and they were going to be leading it 14 to

seven.

And then there's a late touchdown by the bills.

And I said, OK, it's going to be tied.

Maybe we drive here.

We go to the half with the lead.

We make it 17 14 patrons.

And then there's that turnover.

They return it like 30 yards, whatever gets right into the field of range.

Then they take the lead and it's 17 14 like, oh, here we go again with the Patriots.

But I mean, aside from that, he had a pretty good game.

It's the best game that he's had.

He hadn't had a touchdown since week one.

So he was kind of straightening things out.

And then on the other side in that game, Josh Allen is now starting to find the turnovers

that he was not finding earlier on in the season that it's like, oh, Josh kind of makes

these bone headed plays so much so that there was a play.

And I'm sure you guys know the play that I'm talking about where Josh Allen seemingly

was going to get sacked in the end zone for a safety and decided instead of taking the

sack, he was facing the end zone just through it backwards, not looking at all, just

he did backwards to, I guess, create an incompletion which could have easily been intercepted,

returned pick six, whatever.

It could have gone disaster.

It didn't.

And the only reason no one is criticizing it is because it's Josh Allen.

Like, ah, it's Josh Allen.

Where if like Drake may had tried that play with how he had been playing and they had

up losing the game, they would have been crushing Drake and said, what a bone had.

If James Winston would have done this like, oh, classic, James, like, what is his bone

headed play where Josh just gets the benefit of the doubt now.

And that's where we're trying to get Drake may too, I think is where he can just do these

things.

Like, ah, he'll be fine.

It's just Drake being Drake.

Well, Josh, yeah, go ahead.

No, I was going to say Josh has sort of earned that right.

Yeah, that's a nice.

Yeah.

He's a reckless player.

Like, it works out.

And he then sets the record for franchise for touchdowns and rushing and all of this

and that and it's like, oh, what a tough guy.

But it's like, these are dumb plays that you shouldn't be making, Josh.

You kind of need to clean up at some point.

I've never seen a ball, you know, dirt and so to speak in that manner before because

he throws a full on pass.

The reason it doesn't get called, I think for for intentional grounding is because he

is outside the pocket and he's somehow got the ball back to the line of scrimmage back

hand in underhand.

I mean, I'm not going to sit here and credit him too much for an incompletion, but like

he does seem to have shield like this sixth sense of, here's why get away with it what

I can't.

But when the turnovers are coming for Josh, sometimes they come in bunches.

Yeah, that last week with what five turnovers as a team against the chargers and then again,

the Patriots, you know, listen, they stepped up on both sides of the ball and that came.

Yeah, it's like one of those things.

You try to make a change in your life, Billy.

You know, and you know, for me, it's like, all right, don't be just rummaging the cabinet

with the kid snacks at 1130 when you're waiting to record a podcast and go in there and grab

the cookies.

That's not going to be like good for you.

And you know, for like maybe four weeks, you do it well.

And then the next week, you're in there and you're in that's Josh Allen.

He's still got, you know, his thing is he's playing every snap, like it's fourth down

and the super bowls on the line.

It doesn't matter what week it is.

It doesn't matter what's the score is.

It doesn't matter who the opponent is.

And so he can't totally turn that off.

He's turned off a lot of that, I think, but you still, yeah, you'll get one or two of

those every game, every couple of games, but to Tom's point, he more than makes up for

it.

Most of the time, now to your point, if that's a playoff game, like last year, he did

kind of do that in the playoffs before halftime and it cost him.

So I don't think your point is with, you know, without a, is totally invalid there.

But yeah, you will see those from time to time.

But I mean, he's Josh.

So like, it's kind of like you take the go with the bet, right?

He's going to do it.

Some cookies.

Let him eat some cookies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's still healthy, which that alone puts you above some of the other, the other teams

that you have right now.

We saw a lot in the NFC this past weekend.

It's Lamar who goes down with what I can only call it.

I mean, at this point, it's the Lamar.

It's he's either hurt or he's sick or there's something going on.

It seems kind of confusing and maybe you'll play this week or maybe we don't see him

for a month.

Like that happens every single year in that game.

You don't see like anything.

I mean, obviously, there went back and saw a replay.

But there was no clear indication.

She'll initially that he's hurt.

Then he's on the sideline.

Then apparently, they're time up going, going back in the game.

At some point, he leaves the sideline, not to be seen again.

And now, I mean, Jesse Mitter didn't sell any guy.

It was really confident that Lamar is going to play this week, which if he doesn't, they

actually gave Tyler Snewpully some money this year to be the backup quarterback.

But you have to ask this because of the history, the some guys who like, they always seem

to come right back.

They say, his teammate Kyle Hamilton comes back two minutes after every major injury.

Lamar, there isn't history here.

It just makes me wonder what exactly is this looking like and similar to last year with Lamar

suffering injury early in the season and then didn't ever seem to get back to 100%.

I just wonder based on his game, how much that type of an injury is going to impact

There's always some mystery to it.

There's no doubt about it.

And sometimes when coaches answer injury questions, they're being intentionally vague.

And sometimes it sort of sounds like they don't know with Jesse Mitter was like, no, he

doesn't really sound like he knows when Lamar Jackson is going to be back here.

I know the media that were there, the beat reporter said he left the stadium with a boot on

his left foot.

And so it just adds this degree of mystery uncertainty to the Raven season.

And the fact of the matter is Lamar Jackson's been playing like an MVP candidate.

I don't think we've talked about it a lot on this podcast because they haven't had the

most highly publicized games or most exciting games so far.

But he's been incredible even in that game in Declan Doyle's offense.

I mean, I think he had a string of 11 straight completions at one point in the first half.

He was 15 for 20 for 222 yards and two touchdowns in the first half before he left the game.

So it is sort of a big deal that it's going to have an impact on the AFC playoff

picture in the league because I'm not sure how good that Raven's team is without Lamar

Jackson.

It really feels like he's kind of lifted everybody up the offensive line, Zay flowers,

the other members of that offense.

So yeah, that I mean, it might be the biggest story in the NFL.

Honestly, this week, just not knowing when Lamar Jackson's going to be back with the

Ravens.

It's your point, Tom.

It's the exact same week he got hurt initially last year too.

So it really is right around week four.

He's been getting an injury.

We don't know, but like, they got a big one next week because they're going to be playing

the Falcons on Sunday night football.

So now that we've seen the Falcons are one of the best teams in the NFL, is this something

that you can kind of go into without them because when you get injured against the Titans,

you can kind of say like, okay, well, Stupon Lee's here.

He can kind of take us the rest away even though it ended up being a one-score game.

But that's like a game that you don't want to risk him getting injured again.

But when you have these World-Beater Falcons coming with Michael Penix, I want to, you

know, maybe I would dare say a challenge on the NFC to when the NFC championship, I think

you'd want to be full strength coming into it.

Would you not?

Well, that's always the thing too, is with Lamar, with some guys who keel fast, the other

guys who seem to need a lot of time to be able to actually get back to 100%.

His game is unique because of the mobility aspect of it.

You know, the some core best, like, I mean, Justin Herbert, who we can talk about that

situation too since Jim Harboss said that was the grittiest game he's ever seen as the

chargers took a fourth consecutive loss.

Like Herbert just tapes it up and goes, even if he's not, but that's because he doesn't

have to move that much.

He's not Guy who relies upon his legs.

It's just, you know, with Lamar, there's always that aspect of like the stuff that scares

you.

He's a thoroughbred.

Like he's got to be able to run.

If he can't, it just, it hampers everything else that he's doing.

And that was Lamar we saw.

I think we talked about this on one of the first shows I did with you guys.

Like, we didn't see the real Lamar last year because once he got that injury, he never

seemed to be at full torque again.

I'm not saying that's going to be the same case here, but TBD, how long it takes here,

because what you don't want to do is what happened a year ago, frankly, which is Lamar

goes out there and is just kind of 85% for three quarters of season.

That's not a recipe that I don't think anybody wants to see.

Yeah, he's got the different layers to his game.

He obviously can carve you up from the pocket.

We've seen him targeting the middle of the field, making incredible plays down field.

But then you had that added element of creativity, of scrambling, of being used even in the

design run game when necessary.

That makes him even more dangerous there.

So hopefully, yeah, like you said, get a little timeline on this baby.

See when he comes back and when he comes back, he looks like the guy we saw through the

first three and a half weeks, because like I said, that has been easily one of the best

quarterbacks in the NFL so far.

Somewhere between day to day and week to week, I think, it'll be, it's like a four

and a two weeks.

That's what it seems like.

It's like one day to be day to day, one day to be week to week.

This is just life in Lamar world.

Five teams were on three, five teams are now on four.

Chargers remain in my mind, most shocking story in the NFL, even though we knew Billy that

there might be some complications, messing personalities and philosophies with Jim Harba

and Mike McDaniel, like scale of one, everything's going to be okay to 10 absolute five alarm

fire.

Where are you right now on the trajectory of the LHRG.

I think I would say a confident seven, maybe, maybe higher.

It's not like all out panic just yet, but we're getting closer to it.

I'd say seven or eight.

Now that I'm talking eight, let's go eight because I don't know if you saw the post game

press conference where they started talking to Harbaugh and they were basically asking him

about Mike McDaniel's job security and he gave like a very non-answer to it.

And then they had to follow him and they're like, so is this job in jeopardy?

He totally didn't understand the question or didn't want to give a full answer.

No, no, no, he's perfectly fine.

There's nothing to see here.

Everything's good.

But it's kind of like, it's just in her we're getting worse as the season is going on

because it seems like he's not getting better.

This game was not very good.

You had two more interceptions.

He had less than 200 yards.

He lost another fumble.

I'm starting to get concerned and we've talked about it.

We've done the schedule a bunch of times, but it doesn't get any easier for them.

They have the Broncos and the Chiefs and they have a buy and they have maybe the healthy

Rams and Texans Ravens.

It's, I mean, the season's ending for them very quickly if they don't start winning here

and they just keep losing.

They're headed for a relevancy.

Like we've talked about them probably more so than any other team this season because

to what Tom said, they've been probably the biggest story, the biggest disappointment

in the NFL so far.

But I just, I don't think they're going to be in it with that schedule and with the way

they're playing.

And even Herbert's game against the Seahawks, like I'm flipping around our, this game's

over this 27 6 and then I go back and watch it today.

And the second half is the version of Justin Herbert that everybody who is a Justin Herbert

fan is like, oh, there's something there.

He's scrambling around.

He's getting out of the pocket.

He's chucking the football 40 yards down field and I thought, this is garbage time stats

who cares.

I think at the ball back and they have a chance to actually drive and score a touchdown

in Seattle against the defending champs and tie the game and he gets hit from his blind

side and fumbles there.

So I mean, my big question because I think Tom, you've made the case before and it's a good

one that the best course for the chargers might be to just be like, let cooler heads prevail.

This was the first year with Mike McDaniel.

Jim Harboss on a big contract.

They're not going to want to pay him to go away.

He's not going to want to go away and give up that money.

You're not trading Justin Herbert.

Give the whole operation another chance in 2027.

And I think that that like if you take a step back, like if you were like, all right,

let's be rational about this.

I actually think that could make sense.

But the way this is going with the losses piling up and that dynamic between McDaniel

and Harboss, like, are they going to all sign up for that for another year?

But this season continues to go down the tubes.

I mean, that's really my biggest question with the chargers right now.

Right now you are just trying to throw baking soda on the grease fire, like just put it

out.

You have two games before the buy.

Just find a win.

Any win.

And then maybe we can cobble it together and make some adjustments, make a run.

Well, they're going to have to reassess that the buy on like a global level is, are we tracking

the right direction in the big picture with this offense, with this coordinator?

And that's not to say, if not, you fire my bidet immediately.

But if you decide like, we need to make changes not because of 2026, but beyond your

basic admitting, you completely screwed this up in the off season.

You made the biggest move that you can make as a head coach, which is fire in your offensive

coordinator, fire in your offensive line coach.

They kept basically all the other assistant coaches, which is a little bit unusual, but

they bring in a new coordinator and a new offensive line coach to try to take Justin

Herbert to the next level.

If you come to the conclusion, Billy, that it's done the opposite.

And you have actually taken Justin Herbert back.

That's more in my mind and indictment on the entire decision making process than it

is on Mike McDaniel.

Like presumably you had a plan.

Here's how this is going to work.

You would have thought it would be accelerated faster than this.

If you're seeing though, when you go back into that tape that, hey, all right, there is

growth.

We're not winning, but we're growing.

Then take the season, ride it out.

Don't make major changes.

Don't change the play collar.

Don't fire us.

Just ride it out and see.

Can you keep making those games?

Because maybe in 2027, you're going to be playing at a high level.

I go back to Kyle Shanahan's first year in Atlanta, where now they won games out of the

gate.

Like Matt Ryan was not happy.

Him and Kyle Shanahan did not see eye to eye because Matt had always been full control

with the line of scrimmage.

And I can check and I can make all these things happen.

Kyle was like, no, you're going to be a robot.

I'm going to get people open.

You're going to throw the ball to the right guy.

And that's not how Matt had played the game.

Well, you're two and he becomes the MVP.

Again, different situation because the Falcons were winning games at least early in that season

while they were figuring it out, Billy.

But you have to think of this.

It's not just the short term.

Everybody wants their pint of blood here when things are going wrong.

But you have to go, right?

Did we completely mess this up?

If we did, then yes, make wholesale changes.

But if we think this is still like, it's just not coming along as fast as we want, we

think it's the right thing.

Right now, it's the other rest of the season goes and then make them more informed, less

to rest in the season when they get to the end of it.

To Shiel's point, Herbert was getting better as the game went on.

So the game started as bad as it could.

He throws an interception first play.

Then they get the ball right back to Sam Tharn, decided to throw an interception to.

Then they were down 21.

They were down 27 to 6.

He got them back in the game and had a chance to tie the game or potentially win the game

and then gets hit on his blind side, fumbles the ball.

But the thing that's weird about this fit with big Daniel and Chargers is, when you're

saying like, is this a bigger picture thing?

Was this just a mistake that was made in hiring personnel or whatever?

I think everybody coming into the season like, this is the best thing that the Chargers

could do is bring in Mike McDaniel.

This is the offensive genius.

He's out there.

He's available.

We saw the flaws that he had because his quarterback and Tua wasn't good enough.

And now if you're listening to, you know, a ringer fantasy show, they're talking about

like, well, maybe the Chargers should go and they should sign Tua as their backup if

he's available because obviously that works with a Daniel.

Maybe that's something that you throw out there.

Now I don't know how many people besides Craig thinks that that's a good idea, but that

has been floated out there already.

So people are having that conversation.

I think that we all would be surprised coming into week four that we are viewing Mike McDaniel

in a similar light as we are viewing Davis Web in terms of which head coach is going

to make a change or make an adjustment with the situation with their offensive coordinator

first.

The Broncos are the Chargers.

Two teams with boat with I don't think either of those teams would be thought of in this

position right now.

Well, the other thing is I mean, with Herbert, it's like at some point he does have to be

accountable here.

You know, Jim Harboh has never won fewer than what he's won 11 games in five of the six NFL

seasons.

He's never had a losing record and he's 0 and 4 right now to your point.

Mike McDaniel was viewed as a smart, right?

Offensive mind.

Look at what he did with Tua and that Miami offense.

Now he comes to the Chargers and the offense doesn't look good.

I mean, how many coaches is Herbert going to have to go through or offensive?

And again, as I've said before, I'm someone who likes Herbert.

I think it's going to happen for him eventually, but to be fair about it at some point when

the coach keeps getting fired, when the coordinator keeps getting fired, when you're cycling

in different offensive linemen and different pass catchers and it still doesn't happen.

Well, the one constant is the quarterback who we all know was talented and has been very

good at times and not so good at times and probably underwhelming when you look at

the career as a whole based on the talent.

Like, it's fair.

It's not a hot take to be like, all right, we do have to look at that guy a little bit

and wonder why these other pieces are never working.

Broncos still trying to figure things out, find their rhythm.

We'll talk about them, talk about some other teams that have underachieved some quarterbacks

who have overachieved.

A lot more.

She'll get his, what is it again?

She'll, you know, I change it every time I say it, but let's say a pun further review.

We'll see if the audience likes it.

If not next week, maybe we just switch up one word and do what's it called an A B test

billy?

Is that what it's called?

Am I using that incorrectly?

I don't know.

We'll do a pun further review this week to answer your question.

Upon further review right after this.

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It's Monday night, week four now in the books, which means it's time for

for a shield and a pawn further review.

Title is still potentially between.

Show it again.

Yeah, I like when we record this part because we can digest the takes from,

all right, what's everybody getting right?

What's everybody getting wrong?

What do we actually think?

So here are some things I've been chewing on since an electric week four, I think, in the NFL.

So here's the first one.

We've talked a lot about the Houston Texans.

The Houston Texans are now Owen Four.

CJ Stroud is not the reason why the Houston Texans are Owen Four.

Because I think we all thought coming into the season, if the Texans have a bad season,

if they're irrelevant, if things goes out, it's going to be because of CJ Stroud.

Because we know what we're getting from this defense.

We know what we're getting from the coaching staff.

And it just hasn't played out the way.

I think we thought it was going to play out.

You know, if you just looked at the record, you'd be like Stroud must be the reason.

But that game against the Cowboys on Sunday, he was on fire through for 347 yards.

Didn't have a turnover.

Had eight completions of 20 plus yards, the most by any quarterback in a game this season.

He leads them down the field in the fourth quarter puts what's supposed to be an elite defense

on the field to hold the game.

And they couldn't do it.

And they didn't do it for the second game in a row.

So I just think we have to be fair when we talk about the Texans, when we talk about

Stroud, I'm not a hipster.

I'm not a CJ Stroud through throws like, oh, baby, look at him getting to this backside

dig.

No ball the way I know ball.

I'm not even in that camp.

I just think he's played well enough for them to be better this season and Billy, I'll

surprise you with this one.

I don't think they're completely cooked.

I know the wrong one for I know the history.

These are like coin flip games that they're getting up, they're guessing heads every time

and it's tails every single time.

I still think they're a decent team that has a chance to go on a run the rest of the way

and like sneak into one of those wild card spots.

So you don't have CJ Stroud as being the reason.

Did you have the reason that you had like do you have a primary reason because I was looking

up.

So I was trying to prepare for a number of different directions that you could go in

here and see like, okay, it's not CJ Stroud.

So let's start looking and it's like, hmm, the run game has been pretty bad.

They've only got, you know, 79 rushing earth per game on average here.

And only the Bengals are worse.

David Montgomery, he's averaging a lot less than he was last year.

He has 20 carries for 60 yards the first week and after that, I mean, he hasn't done

a ton more.

He's 29 so he's getting older, but he's averaging 4.1 yards per carry this season or over

his career, only 2.7 yards per game this year.

So he's a lot down or much further down than he was last season.

So like that's a notable thing.

Penalties, they're 11th and penalties.

So they have a lot of penalties against them, 7th and penalty yards against them.

Among Montgomery, he has 127 yards for the season.

So in case you're wondering, Kenneth Walker leaves the NFL in rushing yards in season.

That's 537.

He has two games that have more yards and Montgomery has the entire season.

James Cook also has two games with more yards than David Montgomery has the entire season.

So the run game hasn't been great.

PFF has their O-line ranked right at the bottom of the league.

Their O-line hasn't been great.

Their offense ranks 21st in time of possession, so they're not possessing the ball very

long.

So there's a number of factors here.

I think that you may be right that it's not all on CJ Strout.

This is a fascinating stat.

If you look at the current qualifying pass, there's like 35 guys who have thrown enough

passes at the season to qualify.

There are three quarterbacks who have not thrown an interception.

And I would fairly guess you would not be able to name those three.

You want to take one stab, Shield?

You want to take one guess as somebody who's on the list?

Has not thrown an interception this season.

I know Purdy hasn't taken a sack.

Has he thrown an interception?

I guess Purdy has.

I'm not Purdy.

Not Purdy.

You got a guess, Billy.

Well, I know one of them for sure, because we're talking about him right now.

Right.

Okay.

Try to guess one of the other two.

Okay.

The other two.

Context, Closer, everything.

Hmm.

It's not James.

For sure, not James.

Oh, that's what your mind went.

When Tom phrases the question, who has not thrown an interception, your mind was like

James.

Well, it's because he's just throwing three.

Yeah.

He had a rough week.

Case qualified.

Case, key number, an interception.

I don't remember.

He doesn't qualify.

He has not.

He almost threw a few, but not enough qualifying, not a pass to qualify.

There's three quarterbacks who have not thrown a pick this year.

Are Jared Goff, Geno Smith and CJ Stroud.

It was Stroud, even in like the most unfavorable telling, you know, yeah, he's completely 61%

of his passes.

It was a higher rate yesterday.

Strong for over 1100 yards.

Five touchdown passes, no picks.

Well, when I look at the 2026 Texans, there's two factors, I think the pop up.

One, Nico Collins being out for a couple of weeks.

Like there's a direct correlation between Nico Collins being on the field and them being

super explosive and Nico Collins not being on the field and they're not.

Remember, this is a Texans team, too, that hasn't had Christian Kirk.

He got hurt on like the first day camp hasn't played.

They still don't have tanked L back.

They've had to kind of have this different rotation.

When you take Nico out, CJ Stroud's throwing two, you know, just kind of a smattering of

other guys out there.

The second factor is this Texans defense, which was the calling card for them last year.

They were the number one defense.

And Lee, they've had three opportunities, two minute drives, put games away.

And they're over three.

We know this.

Tameco Ryan's nose football.

Matt Burke is a really good defensive coordinator.

Whatever it is, whatever buttons they're pushing, they have to push other ones.

In those two minute situations like this is why you invest in the will Anderson, Jr. at

the top of the market and the Neal Hunters making like $40 million.

And Derek Stingley is one of the highest paid corners.

Like you're expecting that group to step up.

They didn't have LZ's outshire on Sunday.

I'm sure that that makes a factor.

But it's a little bit of a pattern, small sample size.

But that's the stuff that if you're the Texans coaches, Sheila, you got to be banging

your heads against the wall.

Like we're good enough.

We know that we've done this before, but three cracks at it and we haven't closed out

any of these games.

I would imagine that the Tameco and Burke and those guys, it's been a lot of time this

week.

Okay, we know we're good enough.

We're playing the Titans this week.

Okay, like this is a, you should win this game.

No offense to the Titans, but like you absolutely should win this game.

Let's make sure if the Titans keep it close, which they kind of have to solve is done

a good job with their defense.

Let's make sure our defense where we've got all the investment.

And that's what we're known for isn't the reason that we let this thing slip away again.

It's weird because Will Anderson, I think has maybe been the best defensive player in football

this year.

Like he is making an impact.

He is doing everything in his power to get that defense going.

And there are stretches where you watch them.

And you're like, okay, this is the defense.

We thought they were going to be, but to your point, they're not closing these

games.

And overall, if you just look at EPA or whatever, they're 25th in EPA.

Now part of this is they've gone up against Josh Allen, Joe Burrow and Dak Prescott in

three or four games where I know they should be able to perform better against those guys.

But that is a tough group.

You know, if you're just naming the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL this season, all three

of those guys are going to be in there.

And then part of it, I hate to use this as an Alicist because it's like, she'll were

paying you.

And it should be a little bit better than they're getting a little unlucky.

But I think they're getting a little unlucky.

I mean, we've won Josh Allen is chucking that ball to Kamari Lasseter in the end zone.

He drops the ball.

Like if that play happens 10 times, I don't know.

Is he catching it at least six or seven times probably?

And he doesn't catch it there.

That could be a win there.

And even this last game, I mean, they had some calls go up a Lasseter has not had a great

season.

He's been one of the better corners in the NFL, but he had some calls not go his way

on that final drive where the Cowboys had it.

So these are all reasons why I'm like, you know what?

I don't think they're that far away.

I totally agree with Tom's point about Nico Collins.

He is just, he just totally changes what their offense should actually look like.

So it's not the hardest schedule going for it.

I was looking at it.

I think they need to go 10 and three, which seems like a big ass for an O and four team.

They won nine games in a row last year at one point.

So it's like the bones are still there for this team.

I'm not crossing them off as a team that could still potentially get hot.

Going through this schedule, she and I'm trying to find these 10 wins.

But more importantly, I'm trying to find these three losses at night.

It's possible.

It sounds crazy, but it's possible that they could do this.

You have to win this week.

You simply have to win this week against Tennessee.

Because then you're at Jacksonville and home against the Giants team that we can talk about

later, but they're not an easy out right now.

That's before the buy.

You would hope, yeah, coming out of the buy, the chargers have been terrible.

The Browns will see how they're sustained in November.

Like you've got some games you'd like to think you can win.

Yeah, you got to get the one.

And then you go, okay, you know, if we can, if we can make tapies next two, go into the

buy three and four.

It's going to feel a hell of a lot different than, you know, two and five or one and six.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right.

My next one here.

Here we go.

I've been chewing on a quarterback we've talked about before on this podcast had a moment on

Sunday night.

Bryce Young might be delivering and I can't wait to your time.

Give us some information on maybe what the contract negotiations have looked like or

could look like, but Bryce Young might be delivering one of the best bet on yourself

seasons in recent memory.

I mean, if you watch that game Sunday night against the Lions, he throws for 329 yards.

They go up and down the field.

I swear the box score said he had like 12 in completions.

I watched the whole game.

I don't remember the ball hitting the ground at any point in that game.

It felt like a miracle when the panthers threw in in completion.

And the thing with this game is he's had little games in the past where he's saying, there's

something there.

I don't think he's had a stretch like this to open the season for games in a row where

he ranked seven in EPA even last year when it felt like he was making progress.

He ranked 24th.

So this is totally different than anything he's done in the past.

I think the the I test backs it up.

He looks really comfortable.

Is that that internal clock that like the quarterback announcers always talk about?

It seems like he's got that when pressure is coming.

He knows when to step up.

He knows when to get creative.

He knows when to get rid of the ball.

And I just feel like this is shaping up to potentially be one of the big feel good stories

in the NFL.

Did you guys see the video when he went into the locker room?

The MVP chance.

I didn't see it.

No.

Yeah.

Billy wasn't really.

No, it's not that.

I mean, I just I kind of feel like so many of these locker room videos and I have a lot

of thoughts, but go ahead.

What was it like a team published one where it was like, oh, the panthers put this out.

So there's like the nice music underneath.

So it like really gets you in the fields.

It seems genuine.

Like that one seemed genuine.

I watch one with Matt LaFlor giving a speech in the locker room and it felt like he was

trying, but they were all like, oh my God, we almost blew that game to the buck starting

and I'm drafted for it.

This one felt a lot better than that Packers one.

I'll say that.

I don't know if you caught this.

There's been a lot of criticism of Bryce over the years, but during last night's game,

Chris Collins were said something that I was like, I don't know that he's entirely wrong,

but I also don't know that it's fair criticism where he said, you know, Bryce young often

gets criticized for kind of being told that he's not in the zone during the game.

And a lot of that comes down to his face.

If you look at his face, it looks like he's not always in the zone.

And I'm like, I don't know, Chris, like I'm not sure that this is a fair one.

You just look kind of like a happy guy that's not to say that he's not in the zone.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I will pose it to both of you because you're saying

is this like one of the best bet on yourself seasons ever.

It seems like, unless I'm totally off here, they would just pick up his fifth year option,

right?

So he's making a little over $12 million.

They already did that, I think.

Right, Tom, he signed for 2027.

That's the option.

Correct.

So then he'll make $25.

He had to do it at this past spring.

Yep.

Yeah.

So, I mean, he still has to perform next season too, right?

Like this is a good season for him, but he's got to continue to carry it on.

And they didn't believe in him enough to give him that big contract extension yet.

Well, the options, you know, that's a rock on your cap because you can't like, parade

it and stuff.

And so nobody wants to carry that fifth year option number for the quarterback.

And then you're again down the road of the tags.

Like, listen, you could do it, you know, a variety of different ways.

But usually if you got a quarterback playing at a high level, you get the contract done.

Now in terms of what discussions took place in the off season, my understanding was it

was very, I don't want to say cursory, but they didn't get into any deep negotiation

to it was just, hey, this is where we would do a deal.

Well, that's not where the market's going to be this year or next year.

All right, we're not going to get a deal done.

And it kind of made sense because you'd say the arrows pointing up, right?

On Bryce through the course last year and you get into the playoffs, they'll be at

8.9.

But he had his moment.

It made sense.

The Panthers want to gather more information and it made sense for Bryce that, all right,

if I'm not going to be getting paid like a top five top 10 quarterback, I'll just wait

and I'll play it out because I got fully guaranteed money through 2027.

The Bryce we've seen though, this is something better than I think that we've seen him in

terms of just the way that he is playing.

And in terms of his demeanor on the field, like I've met Bryce a couple of times, that's

just kind of how he is.

Like that's his natural.

You don't want to pretend you're somebody else and like act like you're a fiery guy

on the field when in reality, you're just like, you know, you're having fun.

Do you remember after, you know, the year he got benched and then the only reason he got

back in the lineup was because Andy Dalton was in a car accident.

And so Bryce went out there and he kind of caught fire.

And there was a play in the game against the thing that was New Orleans down the stretch

in 2024 where he has the pass and he does the full like turn your back when you shot

the three pointer and just like goes in and he throws the touchdown.

And it was like, that's him.

Like the joy was back.

And I give Dave Canalis and that staff, you know, Brad is it was calling the plays now

will hair.

The quarter bass coach, like everybody deserves a lot of credit for building someone

up who would hit such a low in his career.

And think about this and watching the game last night.

He's doing that without jail and cocker, who is his most reliable target out of the gate

without Xavier Lee get who's on injured reserve right now.

Team Act goes wild.

Team Act is a bad man.

But that basketball team that you've been building around and was like depleted not to

mention, you know, when you're starting guards is out, you know, when you're starting tackles

goes down in the game like there's a lot of things when you're running backs.

The guy Jonathan Brooks who everybody was thinking was going to be the lead back.

He's on IAR like they've got all these different moving parts.

And Bryce has found a way to elevate himself above it.

Now that's a lion's team that's just gutted by injuries, especially in the secondary.

So you should light them up.

But big stage panties are almost never on TV, never in prime time, never ever in a game

like this.

And it felt like one of those moments, not to mention how you're going into your buy.

You're sitting there going, we're lightening it up.

We got the leading passer in the NFL and we're two and two in a division that's just

not that great.

If you're a panthers fan waking up today, you should be excited about the team.

They're also really excited about Bryce Young who contrary to, you know, whatever one of

the world thought a year and a half into his career.

Maybe a lot closer to CJ Stroud in terms of the one two in that draft.

Yeah, I like, I love the canalist point because a lot of times the young quarterback, it

doesn't work for them with the team that drafted them.

And then they have to go somewhere else to have that whole process of all right, let

somebody build me back up and I'm in a better situation like Sam Darnell.

Now it works where he's in the same place and I don't think anyone a couple of years

ago would have predicted that it's going to happen for him in Carolina.

Now Billy, I think you're right when you are looting to like pump the brakes a little

like they don't have to do anything.

You're right about that.

Like they could do something.

I don't think it would be the worst idea for them to slow play this.

Obviously, there's so many variables here.

Let's see how the rest of this season goes.

Can he stay healthy?

Can he sustain this level of play?

Where do they do in the playoffs?

Like there's a bar that he clears where if he clears it, it's going to be an easy decision.

And they're going to be like, no, Brainer, look at the season you just had.

There's a big middle ground there where, you know, what if they go nine and eight and

he's good at times, but he's not great at times.

And he has some injuries where they could say, okay, let's just have him play out next

year on the fifth year option, even though there are those cap ramifications.

You still have the franchise tag in your pocket for 2028 because I think some of these

teams given what we've seen with some of the quarterback contracts that have been handed

out, they might be like, I know it's going to get more expensive, but I still would like

to be sure if we're going to hand out this kind of money to a guy, given what those prices

are going to be right now.

It's a dangerous game, though, right?

Because like that's what happened with two of where two of you waited too long, then

you signed up to that massive deal.

And now he's basically crippled the dolphins franchise for the next three seasons, two

seasons where it's like, well, he's got to go.

He's obviously not the answer here.

We have to pay him forever.

Also, and we kind of were talking about it before this season started, Baker didn't want

to sign unless he was getting 50 plus million a year and he got three years, right?

He signs that deal.

He immediately gets hurt and now you're kind of like, well, Baker might be out for a decent

amount of time.

He'll come back and he'll be the franchise quarterback again, but it starts getting pricey with

quarterbacks, especially if you're not convinced that he's your guy.

If the money that he's going to get in the fifth year option next year is 25, but he wants

to be top 10, you're looking at $50 million a year starting for him, right?

And you're not 100% sure.

And fair or not, we've kind of questioned Bryce because of his size since pre-draft even,

we always saw him and it's like, oh, he looks small.

And then when I think people were really like, oh, he's really small was when, you know,

friend of the show, Mina Kimes took a picture with him at the Super Bowl like three years

ago before he was drafted.

And it's like, they're the same height.

Like is he like five eight?

Like is Mina six four?

Like how tall is this guy?

Is he actually that small?

And then he didn't have a great rookie season.

He was benched, you know, the car accident Tom talked about.

So he's gone through a lot into his credit.

He never kind of gave up on himself and he was ready to play that role last year.

They brought him back in.

He proved himself and this year he's been great so far for them.

I mean, it's only four weeks into the season, but still he's done as good as he can.

Yeah.

There's the advantage of signing guys early is you get it at today's dollars, not tomorrow's

dollars, right?

You can save on the market.

There are a lot of cautionary tales too is a big one because there were so many blinking

red lights of just let the guy play it out.

Just go into let him, you know, he wants to not marry.

He wasn't participating in training camp.

They felt like we got to do it.

We're going to commit to him, but he'd already had the concussion issues, the other injury

issues.

And obviously from that point forward, he never played all that great, but you know,

Kyler was another one.

They did that after year three.

They tried.

All right, even though we have all these concerns with him, we're going to do the deal now.

It's better than doing it later.

You know, two is making like 53 million from the dolphins this year.

Kyler is making like 37 million from the Cardinals.

I get why it seemed like the Panthers can look at this and can say, all right, the arrow

is pointing up, but we also remember where it was before.

In other words, how good is he actually going to be?

Yes, it's a lot better than it was, but is it going to be top 10 type play for a top,

you know, top 10 money with Bryce right now?

You have to say, well, you know, the guy we saw last night, the guy who's seen through

four weeks is a borderline top 10 quarterback.

He certainly has the production, but you know, if you get to the end of this year and you're

able to gather more information, you may feel a little bit better.

All right, now we will pay the extra five, 10 million a year or whatever it might be just

because now we feel more comfortable about the entire body of work here.

I wonder how willing he is to go down the path though, right?

Because like you've had quarterbacks that have gone down that path.

You've had DAC who was seemingly always in these negotiations.

We're like 2019.

It's like, oh, we want to give you $30 million.

He's like, nope, I want 40.

He's like, okay, I have about 33.

He's like, nope, I want 40.

Then eventually he goes and he gets longer daily like five year 175 than he does that

again, right?

Where it's like, I want to make, you know, $50 million, you're $60 million.

You're he ends up holding out playing under the tag.

He gets that contract.

You have Lamar Jackson who asked for a trade and that was playing under the tag bet on

himself.

Then it's up, ends up getting a massive deal for himself.

So I wonder if Bryce not having already signed one of those massive deals and kind of essentially

losing his job and then getting it back because of a freak accident now he's performing.

I wonder if he does actually because, you know, to Chris Collins with point, his face doesn't

look like someone who's going to be like a hard ass here and he's going to like really

press them.

So is he willing to kind of not hold out but really make things uncomfortable until he gets

the number that he wants?

Bryce has already made close to $40 million in his career.

He's due 25.9 on the 50 year option in 2027.

So you don't have like the financial complications that you would if let's say, you know, you're

Kirk Cousins and you are a fourth round pick.

But as we saw with Kirk, if you can find yourself in that position and if you have the guts

to say, I'm going to play it all the way out.

I'm going to even play through the tag.

That's the only time that your leverage comes.

Kirk Cousins this year is on his 11th consecutive fully guaranteed year going all the way back

to 2026 or 2016 rather when he played on the franchise tag.

So if you do it just like Lamar did it too.

He played the whole thing out and no agent would have advised him as a former MVP.

Yeah, year four go play for $3 million.

They would have told him hold out but there are different ways that you can approach it.

Again, Bryce has made more money than most quarterbacks in the, you know, post 2011

maybe a era through the first four years for square.

If anybody can go, hey, what's my worst case scenario?

I made $40 million and I'll just wait it out until I get traded or something else.

Like, I don't think there's any reason that you wouldn't do that.

But it also, you know, there's a two-part thing here.

It's also what does the team want to do?

It'll be a fascinating negotiation.

Who knows?

Maybe even it comes up this week.

They're on the buy.

He's playing really well.

Do they re-engage?

I don't know that that happens.

But if you were ever going to do it, we've seen that happen with other teams in the past.

Tom think or his Tom.

No, she will stay.

That's not a thing.

That's not a game.

No, we didn't think that.

That's a subscribe thing.

We didn't think we had enough.

We didn't think we had enough.

That's what I didn't think you had enough to do.

We didn't think you had enough to do the game newsletter.

Three seasons plus four games.

Exclusive details on Bryce's new contract and the sweep.

We'll find out.

You're ever going to re-engage.

Yeah, I think that, you know, just the last thing I'll say on this is just those guys

had a much greater body of work for as much as I'm enjoying the month that Bryce

Young has had.

That's kind of what it's been a month and then little pockets previously.

Kirk Cuzin, Stack Press, Scott Lamar Jackson.

I mean, these guys had been above average quarterbacks for multiple seasons.

So he's got to figure that out.

But Billy, the quarterback body language thing is what quarterback has the body language

on the sideline that is like universally accepted because it feels like whatever your game

you're watching, you could say this about the guy.

You know, like, oh, look at his face on this side.

I know he's sitting by himself for, you know, he's not even looking at the tablet.

Does this guy even take football seriously?

There's like these three second clips.

You see a quarterbacks and they get ripped for this stuff.

Is there anybody who were like, oh, that's, you know, everybody would like to body language.

Joe Flacco just looks like he's about to fall asleep at all times.

Dad knows when he's not on the field.

Everybody's different.

Whoever's winning, that's the right.

That's right.

There is not.

Yeah.

All right.

My last one here, this is kind of a multi-parter.

I'm glad Tom, you know, mentioned the Lions earlier, but we didn't go deep into it.

So we're all on the same page because there might be an opportunity to do that here.

So here's the premise.

Until further notice, I cannot take these teams that were considered contenders before the

season.

I can't take them seriously.

Wow.

And I'm not including teams like the chargers and Texans, they're Owen for, we understand.

We don't have to take them seriously.

These are three two and two teams that I'm bumping up the panic level on until they

give me a reason to say, she'll calm down, settled.

Okay, it's only October.

So there's three of them.

I'm going to give them to you one by one.

We can discuss them one by one.

The first one as we just hinted at the Detroit Lions.

My preseason, Super Bowl pick.

I'm concerned.

And the analysis here is simple.

Their defense is a complete dumpster fire and there doesn't appear to be a way out.

I mean, I don't know what other way to say it.

I could bore you with all the statistics.

They all start with they are 30 second in and then I could give you like 12 different

categories for the Detroit Lions.

This is the worst defense in the NFL.

And I don't think Brian Branch potentially returning from the Achilles will be enough

to save them.

It could help them, but I don't think it's going to be enough to save them.

So I think their options are, get aggressive at the trade market.

Sounds like they at least were making calls about Joey Porter.

Junior Tom can tell us about that.

Come up with some type of brilliant schematic shift, which I don't know.

Can you do that in the middle of the season?

That sounds kind of tough.

Or you risk being some version of last year's Bengals or last year's Cowboys.

That's where I'm at with this team because I think they're still going to win games, easy

schedule, good offense.

But like I said earlier, when a team doesn't complete a pass against them, it feels like

a miracle.

Not good at anything defensively and I'm worried.

I was looking up their defense because it has been horrendous.

To put it politely.

It's been very bad.

So they've allowed 423 yards per game.

The next close is the Colt at 392.

Usually when you're looking at like yards per game, points for game, it's like one or

two, point eight difference from like one to the other.

This is 30 yards difference that they're allowing per game.

Points per game, they've allowed for passing yards per game, 304, the Jaguars 280.

Another one that is like a massive golf.

It's really bad.

And last year, they're only allowing 217.

So you're looking at what, 90 extra passing yards you're allowing per game.

You've mentioned their secondary has been decimated.

So there's a lot of injuries there.

But you know, rushing the best is the best of their defense.

They're 21st in the league in rushing yards allowed per game.

That's still not very good.

Last year, they only allowed 24 points per game this year.

It's 31.

So it's a full touchdown difference.

I mean, it's early, you know, and they lost the loss to the bills who they were, they

were not favored to lose.

They have, they're favored in 14 coming to the season 14 of the 17 games.

One of the games was a build game.

So that was like, could be a schedule of loss, right?

The game against the Panthers was a surprise, but again, they're injured.

So I don't think it's full blow in panic time.

But I do wonder and I mean, maybe it's crazy.

But if the Jets say Aaron Glenn, you know, your time has come.

It's time to go.

This isn't working out.

And he becomes available to the Lions in season in season.

The old New Jacks.

Kelvin Shepherd.

This was fun, but we're going to bring in an old friend to maybe help out here, you

know?

Like if you can bring back the guy who was your guy when you were at your peak in terms

of where the Lions were, do you try to get him back?

Is that something Aaron would even be interested in in season he wouldn't be, right?

But next season, if this trend continues, you have to make some sort of change here.

So I mean, sure, after the season, if he's available, it's possible.

I don't, I don't think Aaron Glenn, sitting here right now is going to be available in

the season.

We have seen it.

We have been several of those times.

Bella check used to bring back his assistance during the season when they got fired.

I mentioned he we got fired by the Browns.

I saw him like a week later wearing Bengals gear on the field before a game.

Like it's not totally off the wall to talk about that stuff.

Like they've got a lot of different issues and Detroit on defense right now.

It starts with the secondary is just gutted.

Everybody, you know, rip Terry on Arnold long before the legal issues, but going back to

just like, you know, his, his completions allowed and passed through and all that.

But like from day one, they were confident going, you're taking the number one receiver.

Like you're going to be on an island and you're just playing with them and you're going

to deal with it.

And he competed week in a week out last year.

He was heard, obviously, DJ Reed's been banged up all season.

Branch hasn't played.

He might be the most important guy in that defense.

And Kirby Joseph hasn't played.

I don't think he's going to be back anytime soon.

He is trying to get back this season.

Everybody's got a pretty significant knee injury that the rehab process is, is really

elongated.

And that's why he's, he's not out on the field yet.

But even more so, they just, they don't seem to have an identity when you talk to other

people who have faced them.

It's just kind of like what are they trying to be on defense?

You know, if you want to have optimism, if you hear offense from the Lions, the scored

31, 31, 31, 26 points.

You can say if we're scoring like that for most teams like you're in these games, the

problem is you've given up 30, 41, 24 and 32.

Week five, last game before the buy.

They are at Arizona, drew Petsing Revenge Game going the offensive coordinator going

back against his old team in Arizona.

Like this is, I hate to say must wins in week five, but this feels like one.

The Cardinals are competitive every single week.

They've scumpled over these last few weeks to try to finish off these games, but they're

going to be in their building.

Two and three going into your buy is going to feel like what do we do now?

Three and two, you get a win.

You still got your entire NFC North Slay to head of you.

They come out of the buy against the Packers and the Vikings both at home.

You're three and two going into those games and the division feels wide open.

I wouldn't feel that bad about it right now.

The defense isn't good enough and Brad Holmes doesn't have a long history of trading

high draft picks for players.

I don't know what individual player frankly is going to fix what's going on on defense.

They have to find an identity.

They have to get branch back.

They probably do have to make a move of some kind before the deadline.

It's just a lot of pieces.

Otherwise, it's going to be our Jared Congrats.

He's going 30 game.

We're going to need 40 instead.

I know that's the problem is that their offense is good.

It's a top five offense by any metric you can look at.

It's like, do you want to waste that in a year where you have a easy schedule and it feels

like there's no juggernaut in the NFC.

There are good teams.

Dan Campbell had that quote.

We all know back in the day where he's like, that could be our only chance.

I just wonder if there's some point where they feel that sense of urgency and they're

like, it might be out of character for us to make a move like this, but now's the time.

We got to do something here.

Maybe the best case scenario is branch comes back.

Healthy Kirby Joseph does come back and then you add one more player.

I mean, that could get me to a place where it's like, okay, it might not be perfect, but

it's going to look a lot better than it looks right now.

They're just not giving them a chance when the Lions offense punts in a game or turns it

over.

It feels like the game just shifts and it's like, uh-oh, that might be enough for them to

lose.

They're just like no margin for error for the offense.

So yeah, Lions defense has me very, very concerned in a big way.

Let's see what it looks like in the weeks ahead.

Okay, I got two more teams.

Oh, go ahead, Bill.

It could also be worse for them, right?

Like they could very well be Owen Ford at this point because their wins have been one

score wins.

There was the first overtime game that they won by one because the Saints decided to go

by two.

Like, this could be uglier than it actually is for them.

So they've kind of treaded water enough at this point.

And they have big leans in those games and then they're just getting lit up in the second

half in some of them.

Okay, my second team here, I got three of these.

Second one is the Philadelphia Eagles.

Their offseason is shaping up to be a disaster.

They had 172 yards of offense on Sunday against the Rams.

That was their lowest total in a game in the last 12 years.

They had 68 net passing yards in that game.

That was their lowest total in the last 23 years.

Oh, for 12 on third down.

I mean, I could go on.

I don't know if you guys are getting bored or not, but they go three and out on 45% of their

possessions.

It just looks hopeless.

There's injuries.

There's coaching.

There's jail and hurts looking uncomfortable.

It's all of the above.

Like, there's always these conversations and Philadelphia.

Is it this?

Is it this?

Is it this?

I'm like, you had a 68 net passing yards.

It's probably all of those things.

This is terrible.

So defense is not good enough to carry them.

And unless I see some progress, I put them in the same bucket as the Lions where it's

like, I cannot take you seriously as a contender in the NFC.

Is this just too close to home for you?

Like the over 12 on third down, obviously, is terrible.

The being shut out in the second half, two weeks in a row is terrible.

But is this just maybe shield and Philly had higher expectations?

So now that we're not where we thought we'd be, like the panic alarm is going off a little

bit.

I don't think so because I said for all off season, I think the offense is going to take

some time and the defense is going to be able to carry them to some wins.

It's a new scheme.

But this is not like, oh, it's up and down.

It's kind of bad.

Tom, this is like, I can't watch this anymore.

I can't imagine anybody who has no interest in the two specific teams playing in that game

or is betting on it or has fantasy implications.

I can't imagine my anyone would want to have their TV on the Eagles offense at any point

so far this season.

Well, some of it to the defense for a second.

They're 20 second right now in yards allowed for gain.

The defense has struggled throughout and you saw when the Rams had some got to have

at moments in the second half.

They were able to get those things done.

You know, you make a trade in the off season for Jonathan Grinard.

That has been a zero impact type of a trade so far.

I'm sure how he's thinking about other things he can do to fortify that side of the ball.

Offensively, I do think we need to give a little bit more grace.

It is a difficult system.

The Sean Manian is putting in.

It's also the first time play collar and think about this in the game yesterday.

If SafeOne doesn't slip and hurt his hamstring early, are we convinced they're not winning

that game going away?

They also tank bigs being the game.

So down to Shipley's the only healthy running back left on the roster.

They find out Lane Johnson is not going to play like two hours before kickoff, which

you can only imagine the impact that has.

I know, yeah, Devon, Dave Smith wasn't available either.

I think that there's more circumstances.

I know it's Philly.

I know that every single loss is a fold the franchise moment.

But I do think that if you look at all the various things, I think Jay, Jaylin Hertz has

played fine overall from what I have seen, knowing the challenges, knowing that this scheme

is such a departure from what he's done and maybe not on paper the best fit for him.

Like he's working every week on this thing.

They haven't got Mackay Lemon going yet.

I understand the things that are happening in terms of like their identity and what is

it.

But all the injuries right now and knowing that Nick has pulled out of, I don't know,

how many tailspins during his time as the head coach, I'm not that concerned about

the Eagles just yet.

And if I am concerned about the Eagles, it's more on the defense right now than it is on

the offense.

I'm going to have to send that to all my friends and neighbors and family, Billy, because

I'm done to the nice job.

They're coming everyone down and fill it up.

Yeah, it's only October.

They're two and two.

Yeah, I think Hertz has had two good games, two bad games probably, but maybe that's what

you would expect learning on your scheme with some of those circumstances.

I'm just, yeah, maybe you're right, Billy.

I'm too close to it.

I have to watch every night.

They're looking for the Eagles really special.

I know it's, I'm just telling you, it's hard to watch this offense right now.

Okay.

Third team here.

The Denver Broncos are third on my list here.

They've gotten outgained by more than 200 yards twice already this season.

The rest of the NFL, that's only happened five other times for the 31 other teams.

They pull out that game against the Rams last week.

Give them credit.

This was a gutty effort with the defense.

You had injuries there.

I guess the 49ers and that was a close game in the second half, but this Davis Web shot

in Peyton conversation doesn't appear to be going anywhere.

I mean, I don't know how many time shot Peyton has been asked about it.

And we're only in week four.

And like his response this week was like, I understand the question.

I appreciate the question.

Yeah, it's not a bad question.

Yeah, we're not making a change right now or whatever you said, but they're run game.

They didn't have a run of more than nine yards against sort of a depleted 49ers defense.

Jalen Waddle is not being featured bow next.

There's just a lot of check downs there.

So I don't think there are bad teams.

I don't think any of these three teams are bad teams.

I think they all have a good chance to finish over 500 and be a playoff team.

But we're talking about the bar to clear.

Do they look like an actual contender?

Waiting for this Broncos offense and I'm trying to be patient.

But if not for that miraculous comeback against the Rams, we're talking about them as a one in three team.

I would just like to see a little bit more progress with the offense specifically.

Well, the run game has been really bad.

JK Dobbins high this season was 49 RJ Harvey's high was this past week with 25 yards for game.

So that's not going to be good enough obviously to get it done.

I mean, I think if you were to shield the gift if you wanted to calm down,

which you seem on edge today.

I don't know if you had coffee or what's going on.

You're very excitable.

You're very panicked.

I would say if you were to kind of like take a step back and try to give this some perspective.

Okay.

They have a brutal schedule this year.

If you were to look at their first six games of the season before the season started at the chiefs,

Jaguars, Rams, at 49ers at chargers with the time we thought was going to be a playoff team.

And then versus the Seahawks.

If you were to look at those first six games, you would say,

you know, if they could go three and three and those six, I might take it because those

are going to be three really tough games.

So if you just do the first four chiefs, Jaguars, Rams, 49ers, I feel like while they haven't

looked great at two and two before the season started, you still might take two and two,

right?

And say, okay, this is going to be a tough beginning of the season, right?

Then if we look at like week seven to 15, that's where you can win six of eight and kind

of get back on track, then you start getting back into like wild card.

Maybe you steal the division mode, but their schedule this year was really tough.

It is when you look at the stats and just how low they rank on both sides of the football,

it's alarming.

And you know, to look at the on defense, you know, there's no Jonathan Cooper right now that

does make a factor.

He's still on the commissioners example.

It's, you know, now pat your hands beat up.

It sounds like I want to say week to week.

Cause I think he primates a couple weeks, but it sounds like he might be able to even avoid

injury reserve, which you would not have thought based on how he went down in that game.

There'd be up at those spots.

I have seen them before figured this out on defense.

And so I would think that they figured out offensively.

My takeaway just watching the Broncos right now is when you have like a gotta have it

moment when you, it's just like, all right, our best player, our best player.

I don't know who that is.

Jaylin Waddle has had on what is official or unofficial drop total is, but I've seen

him drop a bunch of passes.

It just feels like he's not comfortable.

Maybe he's pressing a little bit too hard right now.

Like where is Cortland Sutton in the offense?

You know, the running backs have been it's kind of a different combination every week.

They just, they seem like they're kind of grasping.

Okay, what exactly are we?

But Bo Nix hasn't played bad.

I don't think by any stretch.

It just seems like in terms of what's happening around him, where the football needs to go.

There's just a little bit of a feeling out process that's continuing to take place.

I don't see Sean Payton just like I said after week one.

It wasn't going to be after one week was going to be after four weeks.

We're going to have to have that every week.

All the organizational decisions.

But certainly they've got to be better.

They've just got to be a better team.

I've not walked away from Broncos game.

Yeah, going those guys suck.

That's not a playoff team.

Every time I'm like, I know there's more on both sides of the ball.

Like why aren't they playing better?

And there's a difference between you're not playing well and you're bad.

I think the Broncos right now are a team that's not playing well on either side of the football.

You know, and let's see, you know, over these next four weeks,

is you kind of figure some of those things out exactly what they are.

All right.

You guys have calmed me down a little.

You're right.

I'm a little bit, you know, high strone on edge, you know, it happened.

But there is truth to the idea.

Because you see this around the NFL with these teams and other teams.

The first however many weeks of the season, it's just like stay in it, pile up some

wins.

It doesn't matter how it looks.

And then at some point, find yourself, whether it's late October, early November,

where it's like, oh, okay, this is what we're good at.

This is what we're bad at.

Here's who's injured.

Here's who's healthy.

Here's this young player who we didn't think was going to contribute.

But now is a revelation.

And now we have more and more of an identity.

So maybe it's a little bit of that.

I think Tom's right about the makeup of the Broncos was always going to be

bone access to carriers.

It's been, hey, in this situation, you can win a lot of games with bone

X and it feels like that situation maybe hasn't been as uplifting as I at

least anticipated coming into the season.

But they do still have all three of these teams that I just mentioned.

They still have a lot of talent.

And generally it's smart to bet on talent.

So there you go.

There's still more games from Sunday to talk about.

We've got an undefeated team that can't score a touchdown.

We've got officials being suspended for using dirty words.

We'll talk about it.

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I feel like every week we have some type of a what's going on the

NFC North segment.

We just broke down the lions.

The bears started their third, different quarterback in three weeks.

Kind of a grimy win where they had like 900 yards to 10 for the jets or

whatever it was.

You have the packers who were just

gutten it out every week.

Just feels like they're trying.

They got a million injuries.

Micah Parsons, it doesn't sound like it's going to be back for several more weeks

like that.

That helps not come in anytime soon.

And then you got the Vikings who are 4-0.

They're the first team since the Chicago Cardinals over 100 years ago to start

4-0 without with multiple games, not scoring a touchdown.

I feel I watched a decent amount of that game.

And as much as they are playing who they are, okay, they're playing to we've

got a great defense.

It is a bumpy ride right now, watching that offense, even though I do think

Tyler Murray, you saw him find a little bit of rhythm getting going with Addison

and even more with TJ Hawkinson in the game.

What do you make at a time there's only three unbeaten teams.

You got the cheese.

You have the 49ers and you got these Vikings.

What do you make them in a so?

See, this is nice.

Now we can do a roller reversal.

Now I can tell you guys settle down a little bit.

You know, they're undefeated.

Here's the thing with the Vikings is that they need the offense to be average

to be a very good team.

If the offense is good, now we're talking maybe an actual contender.

And they're not there yet.

But I watched that game and I was like, especially in the second half,

I know the first half was very ugly.

In the second half, I'm like, I am seeing signs of progress here.

You know, it's a 12-10 game.

It's tight and they have to put together two drives.

They put together two long drives later in that game.

Kyler Murray kind of got hot laid in that game, you know, with TJ Hockinson.

You mentioned he was completing passes.

He looked more comfortable.

They're clearly adapting the offense to what he's comfortable with.

They're playing out a shotgun alive, but they didn't have Justin Jefferson.

They lose two offensive linemen during the game.

They hit 336 yards.

You know, they could have had to touch down if TJ Hockinson didn't, didn't slide

there at the two yard line.

So I'm not telling anyone it's perfect.

But I, if I look at from last week to this week and given that it's the only

second full game that Kyler Murray has played for Kevin O'Connell, I was kind of like,

all right.

It lead, you know, it could have gone the other way.

It didn't go the other way.

He stayed healthy.

We're now at least I'm in a mode of let's see a little bit more.

The defense is going to carry the team.

You don't have to be great, but I kind of see a little bit here.

So yeah, I'm kind of like everybody settled down.

Anyway, now I was killed in the Vikings offense last week.

Now I'm like, you know what?

It looked a little better this week.

They still scored one touchdown since week one week one.

It was like, what is this offense?

Right?

You probably thought like, okay, this is going to be really good.

If they could put a 35 points five touchdowns a week with the defense that they're going

to have, like this is going to be a serious contender.

And then they've kind of just cooled the concern.

I guess is if the offense doesn't figure out as how far can the defense take you?

Right?

And to Shields Point, Hockinson did stop the one yard line.

So it shouldn't have been a five point game.

They should have won by, you know, let's say 12, 11, whatever it is.

Right?

The counterpoint would be Chris Bell stepped out a bounce about an inch.

And that was a touchdown that they gave up.

There was a massive play that he became an eligible because before he ran down field,

he had the foot out which by the way, that's on the equipment staff for having him

wear black shoes with the white sidelines.

Like that's one of those things that's very easily fixable where the white shoes could

have it be like, is there like a little sliver of green in there?

I don't know.

Like, are we going to call this?

So that was a fortunate situation for the Vikings.

But the 4 and 0 seems like a, this isn't seen that's going to go into feed it, right?

I don't think any of us think that it's a good position to be in.

But if the offense doesn't figure it out, there should be some concern as to how far

the defense can take you.

Also Justin Jefferson didn't play in that game because of his ankle.

He wants to play this week against the same.

So if he can't go, I fully anticipate he'll be back after the buy.

That makes a big difference.

But you guys are absolutely right.

I mean, the limited time on task for Kyler, who remember, split in reps the whole off

season with a guy who's no longer there just starting to find those things.

They just lost their left guard.

That's a big deal.

And also just Aaron Jones is giving everything he's got.

It's just not primetime Aaron Jones anymore.

So let's see how kind of things shake out of the running back room as well.

We also had one of several incidents yesterday involving officials in that game.

He was in that case Adrian Hill getting real upset because Eric Wilson bumped into him,

knocked him over.

He actually got shoved into him.

Hill said, you get out of here or something like that.

He gets suspended for a game.

You also had Jeff Seaman gets suspended two games for telling Tramack Bride to bleep

himself, bleep you, bleep you.

And then he had Mike Brable who got an unsportional conduct penalty for telling the ref.

It was a bleeping terrible bleeping call.

I assert this billy to you and I just want your opinion on this.

In terms of the hierarchy of what you should be penalized, so I suspended before, do any

of these rise to the level where you think it's beyond the normal thing in the game?

I felt no is the answer.

I think we just have more cameras than we ever had and we have more microphones than we

ever had.

But the Tramack Bride won.

I was like, I feel like this happens all game long, every game.

We just don't see it that clearly.

The situation where Eric Wilson bumped into an official, I've felt particularly bad for

because he was trying to help him up after.

And then he's like, get out of here.

It was like so mad at him.

It's like, this is clearly an accident.

He's trying to help you up.

Like, you don't have to get so mad here.

And then the variable thing, I mean, I feel like the coaches are verbally assaulting

the officials all the time and I would imagine they get it right back.

So I don't know.

I was kind of surprised that we saw the discipline that we saw.

And I'm guessing that this was just somewhat of a performative thing to be like, look,

the officials are not out of control.

Even though there's been more flags this year than I think in the past like 10 years

or something at this point in time, it's been crazy.

How many flags are?

But it feels more performative.

Like take a week off, take two weeks off.

You can go, we'll come back.

We'll make it seem like the officials are at out of control.

But it didn't seem that bad to me.

I mean, yelling F few to a player, that seems a little bit like you're on a power trend

all of a sudden.

I feel like that's a risk though you're willing to take, right?

Because there's nothing actually besides fines and rules restraining that player from

really getting back at you, right?

So yeah, but he's like on the side, he's like on the sideline there.

He's not like up in his face or anything like it.

When you become an official, you know that people are going to complain about calls.

You are at the highest level here with the most competitive people, you know, maybe in

any sport.

And yes, there's a line that they can cross.

We've seen in the past.

If they're in your face, if they're making contact with you, then all bets are off,

yell whatever you want.

But that feels like personal to me.

Like if it's like, you know, it's sort of like they, they are trained that if a player's

yelling at you or coaches very upset with a call, there is a way to handle that.

And I don't think that that's necessarily the way to handle that.

So I thought that one actually was out of line where I'm like, what is it?

I forget which official that was.

I don't remember all the.

Jeff Seaman.

Okay.

Yeah.

I thought he was out of line.

I'm good with the punishment there.

I'm with you on the air.

Wilson one.

I couldn't stop laughing.

Wilson.

Wilson.

He's so mad at him.

He's yelling at it.

He's yelling at it almost like a dad yelling at his child or something.

That's like it was an action.

100% that's my reaction when like I'll be walking through the kitchen, you know, like

I just got something off the grill and like the dog will come and clip my knees.

I'm just like, you get out of here.

Like that's what it was.

I just thought that was silly.

Listen, the NFL is like made sportsmanship a huge deal.

And if you want coaches to follow it and players to follow it, you also want officials

to find it.

Yeah.

It's your workplace.

You can't tell people bleep you at the workplace.

The variable one.

That's the one that I'm just like, I mean, he said it in his press conference.

He's like, I have said that 87 times since I've been ahead.

Oh, they got it because it was out of the box.

You're not supposed to go past a certain point on the sideline.

I think that was it.

But the flag for that man, it wasn't you're a bleeping idiot.

It was that's a bleeping terrible bleeping call.

To me, it's part for the course.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

Like this is like the you could call holding on every snap.

You could flag every coach 20 times a game for saying the F word about something.

I just, to me, Billy, I think that we get down a little bit of a slippery slope.

If we're going to start throwing flags for that again, unless you're going to have a

hardcore enforcement, right?

Like NBA coaches aren't supposed to go certain places and they're constantly going.

And if you cross half-corner something, you're getting teed up.

If you want NFL coaches not to leave the box, then enforce it all the time.

Don't let somebody sprint down to the goal line and call time out when they're not supposed

to be down there.

They've kind of had a lot of leeway.

The only thing you ever see them get busted for is when an official will run into them,

which I think we had that happen too.

Right?

There was Eagles Rams, yeah.

And so I get that part of it.

I just, Bill, if we're enforcing the, an F bomb is an immediate foul.

Like we're, this would be like if Simmons got the, like the FCC popped down on a

map to listen to the one pod.

I feel like, I feel like it's a little harsh.

It was a little, it felt like a sensitive weekend, especially when like a coach is getting

fine for doing the exact same thing and officials doing in another game.

It's kind of like, well, kind of a little bit of consistent here.

Consistent.

Yeah, I even think those are two different things than that.

We don't spend 20 more minutes.

But saying FU is different than that's a terrible F&C.

Like I actually think that that is, that is a different thing.

To be doing, you know, like the ref said, if you, the ref said, get the F back on the

sideline or, you know, I think that is fair game, but just yelling FU to him multiple times.

I would say that.

That is weird to me.

From the official's point of view, it's like, that was a terrible call.

This is my livelihood.

You're questioning my integrity now.

This is beyond just an FU.

This is worse than that.

Well, like if you said to your wife, not the either, either, either, either you guys

never do it.

But if you said, where are my bleeping keys would come off differently than bleep you,

where are my keys?

It would just, it would hit.

I'm not testing that, Billy.

No, neither one.

I'm going to let it snow how it goes.

I do, I do lose my keys constantly.

All right.

We're back on Wednesday.

I don't say that to my wife.

Just so we're abundantly clear on this.

Back Wednesday.

We're going ahead to week five.

I appreciate you all being here watching and listening.

Thanks, Arjuna, Chris, the whole team behind the scenes for Sheel and Billy.

I'm Tom.

We'll see you.

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