‘Verity’ Is Trash. But Is It Good Trash? Plus: ‘Digger’ Flopped and Warner Bros. Is No More.

I'm Sean Fennese. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is the big picture a conversation show

about Varity and Endings. Today on the show we are talking about the new Colleen Hoover

adaptation Varity starring Anne Hathaway and Dakota Johnson. It was the biggest movie

of the weekend and is also a heaping pile of steamy pulpy trash. But is it good trash?

And what do we mean by that exactly? Amanda and I will explain. There was also a dramatic

change in studio leadership at the newly merged Warner Brothers Paramount over the weekend.

And we'll talk about that. As well as the failure of the movie Digger. It's all coming

up right after this.

Okay, Amanda. A lot happened over the weekend. I've been in New York, living a fabulous

life. You've been in Los Angeles living another life. I wish you well.

How was dinner with my husband? I did in fact have dinner with your husband in New York.

We were both away from our children and we were we were living it up. We went to an old

haunt of ours that we we dined in many times with me at a nice time. We are working here. Your

husband is working and I'm working. Maybe not as hard as you're working. You know who wasn't

working? It was the film Digger. The film Digger did not work for audiences around this great nation.

$7.9 million opening weekend. Is that was at the final tally? I didn't even update the final

numbers. But boy, this movie did not perform well on a budget north of $150 million. What do you

make that? Not surprised. The main reaction, the only thing that I was very sure about. Well,

I was sure of two things. One, I found the experience of watching the film irritating and two,

that it was not commercial. So that seemed to be a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts that the movie

just really was so uncommercial that people gave up going to see it. And I do feel

this weekend anecdotally everyone I saw wanted to ask me about Digger and what I thought about it.

But none of them had seen it. And no one really had plans to see it. You know, we said on our Digger

episode, which I hope people will listen to you after seeing the film that we hoped they would

see the film. And before they listen to the podcast, no one did. Everyone was just like, no, no,

I'm not going to bother with this. Maybe I'll check it out on streaming. But this is so D-O-A

that I don't have to go. So I do think that the reviews and just the negative buzz and tracking

probably pressed it down even further. I think you're right. I think the word was out pretty

quickly that this was maybe not for everyone, but it still had a car crash quality. So I think

there was a curiosity about what it was that people were checking. So there's a lot of media

about the film. There are a lot of takes flying around about the film. I think you and I

anticipated correctly that there would also be a kind of counter-wave that there would be

some defense of the movie, maybe even a rising cult of this movie. And that's interesting.

I've been trying to sort it out. There's a couple of things I wanted to talk to you about

with respect to that. One of them is that many of Alejandro Inuretus compatriots publicly went

to bat for him. Alfonso Cuaron took to x.com, the everything app to share some thoughts about

other films historically that received negative reviews. And then we're ultimately praised as all

time classics, which you know what? I love my friends too. I understand. And as you know,

there are some things about Digger that I really quite liked. I came out and mixed positive on the

movie with some notes. The other thing is that the movie arrived at the exact moment when Pam

Abdi and Mike DeLuca were beheaded publicly by David Ellison. They're not joining the Warner

Brothers Paramount merger. They're not going to run the film slate and Warner Brothers anymore.

And I do want to have a long conversation with you about what their rain meant and what it means

for them to not be in that position. But there's one quick digger thing that I wanted to speak to you

about. And I don't want to spoil the movie for anybody who skipped the last episode. But there's

this kind of question of is the whole point of the movie to satirize satires. And I don't know that

we had a very specific conversation about that. But this is the week of the social reckoning. And

Aaron Sorkin has been identified as perhaps a target of the movie Digger. And I'm a little reluctant

to be like, that's the sum total of what the point of Digger is because that seems like the smallest

target imaginable. And I felt like it was a bit bigger than that. And I think a lot of what we see

in the cruise characters emotional complication makes it a bit wider and deeper. Do you think it's

as simple as like, this is just, this is a, you know, don't look up in the newsroom and shit like

that is just very stupid. And we should make fun of it because it doesn't change anything in the real

world. No, I think that's good posting, right? I think that's using all of the proper nouns available

to you and connecting the dots. And you got to have somewhere to go with the content. And also,

you can't use the movie itself because really no one has seen the movie. So bring in extra

memeable moments. See Aaron Sorkin's tan. I think that the movie is both bigger and smaller than

that. I think that it is operating on a very grand, um, non-specific. What does it mean to, um,

to make satire or make art? Um, and what can art do in the face of world, the world's great

complications? And I think it's also just very much about Inri too. So, and, and about the lone

filmmaker or, you know, the, the actor in this case Tom Cruise and there is a meta Tom Cruise

quality to it. But it feels very, very turned inward or on the grandest scale possible. Like,

I'm, I'm not sure that I would be surprised if Inri too crushed all four seasons of the

newsroom three. Uh, I think it was three. I did watch all three. Um, and, and enjoyed it.

And you don't have any Oscars. So no, no, you think I'll get to over under two Oscars for me

before I die. What do you think? I think under because you are historically against people having

two Oscars. So if you got the first one, then you would sabotage the second you'd try to

spread the wealth. You know, that's the kind of you are. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for reading me that

way. Uh, I agree with you about Digger and I, you know, I suspect we'll talk about it a little

bit more because people are going to start checking it out and it's going to be on VOD probably in

about two weeks here. So once that happens, we'll be able to, but which D, like which, I guess,

it'll be paid for. Yeah. Which, uh, where, where will it be available? I, you know, you'll pay for

it. But once it's free on streaming, which is where most people will watch the first 20 minutes,

will they even make it to the twist? Is a big question. Oh, when will they check out? That's a

fascinating. Yes. That's a fascinating note. I mean, presumably it goes to HBO Max by January.

Okay. And that'll exist as HBO Max. I think so. When those two things will fuse as an

elegant transition into our broader conversation about Warner Brothers and Paramount and everything

that happened over the weekend, um, I do think that Digger is the last of its kind for now. Mm-hmm.

The $150 million, a tourist solipsistic fantasy with a massive movie star is the most emblematic

possible movie of the Mike and Pam era for good and for ill. And when you look at the movie that

triumphed over it in Verity, which did very well this weekend and is kind of is is is IP. It is

the opposite of the O'Tourg driven movie that is original in theory. Um, it's a pretty stark

comp to to where we're all headed here. Um, I'm not sure that Digger should have been number one.

Like I mean, it's not really qualitative judgment. I think it's just indicative of

if you don't have the goods. See sinners or weapons. This business is really, really hard

when trying to do those things. And what one thing that I thought was quite cool about the Abdean

Deluca era was that they somehow convinced David's as love that this was the way. And they had it.

I think about as many wins as they did losses in this regime, which started in 2022, but probably

really properly starts like end of 23, 24 because that's when they're the films that they chose

started to hit the board. I mean, you can talk about that each one kind of individually briefly. But

I don't know. What do you make of this news that they're not coming and that this period,

this very brief post COVID period that from a major studio that was throwing all this stuff

against the wall has ended and is now leading into Skydance. It's pretty grim. I'm feeling quite sad

about it. And I and and hopeless. I think we've traded places. And maybe that's because we've literally

traded places. And you've been in New York, uh, Galavanting around, um, and seeing the future of cinema.

Yeah, let's look at those jazz hands. And I learned the Mike and Pam news, like, I think everyone

possibly including Mike Deluca from Matt Bellany's newsletter on Thursday night. And I read that

newsletter 20 minutes before I walked into a party for a Netflix film. And the mood was quite

interesting. And and the the vibe, it's not like I spoke to anyone. I didn't do any reporting. I

just had a glass of wine and left. But the vibe of being at a at a party for a film that will go

straight to streaming that we'll talk about that is not it's, you know, it's not one battle after

another. It's not digger. It's just another movie. And these people have just had their, uh, these

people who at least were trying to make original projects and put them in theaters have been fired.

David Ellison is coming to bring, you know, all of his aviation movies to the masses. And everyone

lots of people are going to get fired. And the the history of cinema of in Paramount and Warner

Brothers, which have existed for decades and are part of Old Hollywood are now being, you know,

re-arrased with Larry Ellison's money. It was just kind of grim. It was like, oh, so this is the

future, huh? This seems this is exciting. Not. It's it's pretty grim. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in addition to

the news about Abdean Deluca, the news that, you know, on crides, the former Mattel CEO would be

coming in as the new, the CEO of Skydance. And that he is an experienced business executive who

will probably be responsible for executing the redundancies and reducing a lot of the synergies

between the two companies and all that business stuff. And also that, you know, that was something

that he didn't motel. And he also was responsible for helping to shepherd the IP maturation of Barbie

and less successfully masters of the universe and he man. And the matchbox film that's coming to

Apple this month. And so yeah, Paramount and Josh Greenstein and Dana Goldberg, they will run the

film division there and they have been at Paramount for about a year. And look, they're, they're pretty

seasoned executives. Greenstein has mostly worked in movie marketing. He's been at a number of studios

over the years, including he was in Paramount in the 2010s and he came back. Dana Goldberg has worked

for David Ellison at Skydance for 15 or 16 years. Look at the movies that Skydance made.

They made some cool stuff, right? They may top gun Maverick. Top gun Maverick. Big fan of that movie.

They are their first film was true grit. Love that movie. They also made some other stuff.

And that stuff isn't great. Last night I was looking at, can we just read the slate of Paramount

for the rest of 2026? Yeah. You do that and then I'll do the upside, okay?

Whereas yes. Okay. What makes you think this isn't an upside? Okay, we'll fire away. Okay, so

upcoming. You're your most anticipated film of October Street Fighter, October 16th. I am pumped.

I must say I'm pumped. And that's good. Listen, we all have our enthusiasm. Mine is top gun Maverick.

November 13th, Ebenezer, starring Johnny Depp. November 25th, Focker and Law, which is a co-productive

production with Universal Pictures. I guess this is international distribution for Paramount. Okay,

so here we go. Angry Birds Movie 3, December 23rd. Yeah, what do you think of Angry Birds Movie 2?

Have you ever played any Angry Birds? Yes. You have? Yes. That's cool. Okay, were you really into

phone games? Was I really into phone games? No, I wasn't really into phone games, right?

I've played phone games. Okay, I played some candy crush, but that's kind of it. Yeah, brick breaker.

Nope. You never played brick breaker on your on your on your blackberry? No. Do you have a blackberry?

Yes, but I didn't play any games with it. I just did the what was the messaging called?

The messaging? Yes. I don't know. I guess it wasn't called texting. I know it wasn't. It was

something different. Anyway, Mr. A Relevant. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. I saw the trailer for

that ahead of Verity. And I was like, yeah, down the middle, sentimental sports drama, yes. Yes,

but so Street Fighter, Ebenezer, Angry Birds Movie 3, and Mr. A Relevant. Right. So I think based

on that, I don't think that's the worst slate of all time. No. And honestly, Paramount has had a

pretty mid last three or four years in general with the studio because they've been in this kind of

transitory moment. I think that you can also look at all the people that they've signed up

to make stuff in the last six to 12 months as also indicative of what they're interested in. Now,

I do think that there is a little bit of like a Americana that feels meaningful to them. Sure.

Like that there's going to be they're making a call of duty movie with Peter Berg,

which I think is a very smart IP adaptation. And Peter Berg is very good at war movies. But that

does speak to a different kind of audience. I think then with some of what Pam and Mike were doing.

But you know, they also signed the Duffer Brothers away from Netflix, the creators of Stranger Things,

who I'm interested to see what kinds of movies they'll make. They signed John M. Choo to a

multi-picture deal. I'm kind of a coin flip on John Choo movies. You know, really neither of us

really cared for wicked at all. But like I like Crazy Rich Asians. These made some movies I like.

I wish it. But Crazy Rich Asians just should be so much better. And that's one where I wish that they

would just like redo it. And they can even give John M. Choo another chance. But I'm just like,

it's one of those where it's just not good enough. Yeah. I think he's like a steady Hollywood hand.

Not like that. That's not like an embarrass. There's no code there for what it means that they

hire John Choo. And then there's more people. There's, you know, the the first thing that Goldberg and

Greenstein did was they signed James Mangold and Timothy Shalamay to make a crime movie.

Which I'm, I mean, I'm great with that. Yes. I love that conceptually. They extended Dan

Tractenberg who's been making the President Predator films for Fox to a new deal. Parker Finn,

who made the smile movies, which I'm a little bit more mixed on. But now he's making a remake of

possession, which I don't think isn't necessarily the greatest idea in the world. But it's at least,

um, it's, it's aggressive. It's, it's, there's something fresh about that. Um, and then Will Smith

has a new deal with the studio as well, which is complicated. As, and Damien Chazal's The Prison

Movie is also his prison movies, theoretically coming out next year. Yeah.

So killing Murphy and Daniel Craig. So I, I think there are some re, like, optimistic notes.

Tiana Taylor's directorial debut comes out next year. Um, there'll be some other stuff.

I don't know if it's going to be amazing. But if you look back at Mike and Pam,

and even the, the eras before that, right? You had a pretty successful stretch for the Warner

Brothers film studio in the 2000s, because it's also the same time as Harry Potter and the rise

of the Nolan Batman films. And of course, all the Nolan movies all the way up until

after the tenant fiasco. And you know, we also have had the dude movies have been coming out over

this time, which are like, I don't know, I'm not sure that Abdean to look in a certain credit for

that. But then when you had all that IP in place, and then you stacked it on top of these movies,

it was pretty exciting. So like, let's go through the list. What do you think? I put together the

wins here. Yeah. And they're almost in order to me. But they're ranked. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

sinners was the first film that came to mind because sinners was a movie where like they made a

really tough deal on sinners where they had to give the copyright back to the filmmaker. And that

was widely criticized. And it turned out to be a really smart move because sinners was such a huge

hit and also an awesome awards film. And I think goes down is like a very memorable movie from the,

if not this decade, maybe the century that people have a big relationship to. So if you make just one

of those, that's pretty good. Will you be making sinners a Paramount? I'm not sure.

I mean, and they certainly won't be making that deal in order to land the film both from a business

perspective. And also the Ryan Cougars carve out or special contract, whatever you want to call it,

was in part because of the text of the film and what the film was about. And it just does not

really seem so far like this Skydance ownership is going to be sensitive to those kinds of

themes and requests. But I guess we don't know. Maybe that's not fair to say. Yeah. But also,

so you have in here sinners, weapons, and then one battle after another winning best picture,

all grouped in row. But those were all in the same year. They were. Yeah. So that's a pretty good job.

It's a really good job, though. I do have a question for you when we get through the wins and

losses of that. Yeah. I want to talk about it too, which is just kind of they stacked one amazing

year that they hosted on for 18 months. And that was clearly a strategy of sorts. Though I do

start to wonder how much of a strategy it is because all of these movies are big productions and

with lots of people and you're working far in advance. And I think you have some say of one

things are ready and when things are going to be rolled out. And but I don't do we think that

they were there long enough and had enough foresight and could arrange things enough that they

were like, okay, we'll just do 2025 and stack all of our good movies at once so that then

hopefully the sale goes through and we're in a in a good place. I mean, I think they and other people

at the company knew which movies, not so much which movies to release. Because you know, when you're

in that environment like these films are tested, we they have an expectation of what audiences are

going to do. There's a long range tracking for certain movies and certain that have certain

particular audiences. It's really more about what movies to hold. And what they did is they held

six absolute stinkers till 2026 to make the film studio seem as attractive as possible

in the negotiation phase. So that choice to me made the 2025 gambit look really good. I mean,

in addition to those three movies that we talked about and look, one battle after another is not

like a massive financial success, but it is also basically a forever movie annuity having one

best picture. So you put those three together. Those are big wins plus you got also on this podcast,

we do care about like the quality of films. And like and doing the right thing and investing in art,

which is also when you were talking about how Mike and Pam were criticized for the Ryan Kugler deal,

criticized by who biggers. We're not biggers, right? So like we good job on that one.

I know the problem is that like you're right, but they're executives, they're not

creators. Totally. And we are having a conversation about their business decisions that led to a

business decision of them no longer having a job. I get it, but I do also want us to remember that

one battle after another was our favorite film of last year. And we like it when movies are good.

Totally. There are many episodes in which you hear me saying that very thing.

I'm trying to hold on to our humanity. If no one else can, we are we're holding on to it.

No, I've lost it. Mine's gone. It's over. It's over. I'm just a banker now.

Doon kept the train on the tracks with Doon. Doon is obviously a legendary production,

not I don't mean that in the magic title sense. I mean literally the company legendary.

Getting a Minecraft movie out in the world the way that they did. I think Toby Emmerich's

regime hired the director and got that movie started, but they marketed it well. They released

it well and now it's a mega hit and they're putting out another one next year. And they signed

Pearson Dutz for number two. Huge for you. Huge for all of us. Distributed F1. They didn't pay

for it, but they put it out in the world. They made that movie a hit. Superman. I think Superman's a win.

I think especially in the slow decay of new superhero content, they did pretty good

business with that. It probably could have been bigger, but what definitely wasn't bad.

Weathering Heights did pretty good business as well. And that was another deal that they signed

where they really went aggressively after that movie and they wanted over Netflix by giving it

theatrical. And even though you and I were not really crazy about weathering Heights,

I like that. I like the idea of Emerald Finale getting that deal like that and putting a movie

as big as that movie is out in the world. It's cool. It's doing cool things instead of Ebenezer.

Yes. Beetlejuice too. You didn't really like that one.

It was okay. It felt a little reheated. I mean, it gave us one of the great jokes of this podcast,

which was you texting us from Las Vegas in like 2020 being like, hey,

word on the street. Beetlejuice too. The new system came.

No, that is now what I said. It was going to be huge is what I said, which is what happened.

New line, the train was on the tracks, conjuring. Yeah.

Five came out and crushed and conjuring four. And final destination six was a banger and all

those movies seem to be doing just fine. And you know, they marketed Wonka straight to success.

How did your body feel as you were saying that out loud?

Well, at least I said it. I told the truth on this podcast.

Okay, here are some misses. Okay. I mean, they almost got fired twice. Yeah.

And then they did get fired. So they get fired. That's not an ideal.

It's funny how they would show up in Las Vegas every year to present their slate.

And their presence was one year they were definitely about to get fired except then they just

presented like a historic run of movies. So they were fine. And then the next year,

they just tried to do a victory lap, but they were about to get fired again. And they were also

like here are all of the movies that we know that no one's going to go see, which as well.

Yeah, they've been through it. I hope they don't read the comments.

Yeah. I mean, they've both had really big and great careers in many ways, but they have just

become so emblematic of this kind of sinophilia versus the encroaching tech monster eating Hollywood

war. So that's sort of why we're memorializing their era in this way. Yeah. I mean, Joker Folia do.

Yeah, I did work out. It didn't. And honestly, I think it changed movies in a huge way because it

now means that no Hollywood movies go to film festivals anymore. Really true. So thanks for that.

That was interesting. Yeah. Digger obviously is a massive L. The movie's going to lose $200

million to the studio. That's not good. That's not good Amanda. It's it's not good. You don't

want to know. It's not your money. It's not my money. The bride. Yeah. Again, another movie that like

I kind of liked whispers. I kind of liked it. That's good. That was another very irritating movie to

watch. Yeah. And I guess in some ways, it's really matched with both Digger and the next film,

which is Mickey 17, which you compared it to when we discussed the digger last week. And those

three movies are the downside. I think specifically of the weapons sinners, one battle after another

trilogy of power. They are, oh, Tor driven, flops. There's no other way around it.

Mickey 17 did okay business. It did like across like a hundred million worldwide. It made a lot

more money than Digger's going to make. That's for sure. But yeah, those three movies are not total

successes. The end of Oak Street is a weird one where like it was kind of on the shelf for a while,

got recut. I ended up liking it. Did you end up seeing it? No, I still didn't see it because it

got dumped in August. And it's available on streaming. I just, you know, I think about it every night.

And then I have to watch something else for the show, which is I guess how many people are

experiencing it. Yeah, maybe when it hits like HBO Max, we should, we should chat about it a little

bit. It's some curious what your thoughts are on. I liked it. But it didn't totally hit the way

they were hoping. Another thing that has been happening, which is so interesting, we've only talked

about maybe once so far as, you know, they were not able to lobby to keep coyote versus acne. We

don't know what their role was in terms of the David's as love decision to to punt that movie off the

slate entirely and eventually sell it to catch up entertainment. But coyote versus acne over the

weekend, crossed a hundred million dollars worldwide in the box office. That's pretty good.

You know, congratulations to catch up media. Yes, very exciting for them. They bet wisely.

And people seem to like that movie. I think most of the people who like that movie are 37 and not

right nine. That was our experience. Yeah. But they like it. And that's certainly something. And then

of course, the back girl fiasco, which is not it's not Abdi and Deluca's fault. But

that to just the lead a movie is is abhorrent. I mean, that's just horrible. Well, the the back girl

of it all leads into the next issue, which is DC more broadly. And you put Superman in the wind column,

but everything else is Ben pretty bleak. And super girl is still the worst movie of the year for me

personally. And it's down there for me too. And they're just just does not seem like there's a lot

of juice. It with anything that James Gunn has going on. And I know that I'm not supposed to count

him out because you all liked those movies with the raccoon. And that's very beautiful. Guardians

of the galaxy. Crank films. Yeah, I think Manitomara will be back. I think because I think he's going

to I think he's going to pour a lot of the DC universe into that movie. And it's going to feel more

and Avengers DC movie where a lot of figures that we know about. And so they're going to it's going

to draw us in. I mean, I like Superman. So I'm curious to see what he does. But in general, I do

think the future of DC is a little dodgy. And it seems like while James Gunn and Peter Safran are

coming over in the transition to Paramount, it's a little bit of a like wait and see period here

in terms of what the rest of their slate looks like. Because after Clayface and Manitomara,

I'm not sure if there's another film that's officially been greenlit yet. Okay, since we're talking

about the future of DC Studios, too, we should also mention the Batman part two, which is

technically not under the James Gunn and Peter Safran leadership. But as a movie that is hugely

anticipated, we had heard that Robert Pattinson had returned to London to start shooting that movie.

This is the sequel to Matt Reeves's original film, which came out a few years ago. And then there's

been some news this morning that Matt Reeves is stepping away from this movie for personal reasons.

And there had been some rumblings about that going on. And so this movie that was originally planned

for February of 2028, and now may be a little bit longer. I'm not sure if there's much for us to

necessarily discuss here, but it is another film that is a piece of the puzzle in this merger.

Horizon? Yeah. I mean, release the tapes.

Yeah. I mean, that was only distribution for that first movie, but the second movie is now,

is it never going to come out? Kevin Costner's Western trilogy,

Courthology, whatever. It's going to be supposed to end up becoming.

I have no idea. I know two people who have seen it. Yeah. Zach Barron and Griffin Newman.

Yeah. Two best. And you didn't go. Two goats. I fucked up. I should have gone to the Santa

Barber Film Festival and gone to see Horizon Part Two. And then I didn't. And then there was some

negative press around the film. And then I don't know. Just now it's gone. Sad.

Very, very weird. Were they part of the decision making process that allowed the original plan

of Horizon One premiering, I believe in June. And Horizon Two being slated six weeks later.

I don't know. Because that's not what you want. That decision belongs in the El Colum,

for whoever, whoever it was. You're right. And thank you for reminding me of that. And the removal

of it given its performance is ridiculous. Yeah. And yet like, I honestly feel like they could have

just dropped two on streaming and done good business. Because I mean, that film with its

multi story narrative, like it kind of feels like a TV show. It feels more like a TV show than it

does a film. And it's got like five different storylines. And you know, it's like cutting back and

forth between the A plot and the C plot and the D plot, you know, who's to say they still can't?

I guess I could. Horizon Two is owned by Warner Brothers today. And no, it's not Kevin

Costner. It's still owned by the investors. Yes. They're only distributing the movie. That's right.

Okay. This is a mega-lopeless situation. Oh, I forgot about that. That's right. Because he

put, he sold the ranch or whatever, or the, you know, the carpenteria beach. That's right. Yeah.

So he's a little to me. Okay. You love the beach. So congratulations. He did not sell it to me.

Practical magic too. I put on here, even though it like whatever, it's financial fortunes

didn't really matter to anything. I just thought it sucked. So I'll put it on here as a loss.

It wasn't very good. Big swing still to come. That's the other thing that is really

fascinating about this next 12 months is there's all these Pam and Mike movies that they greenlit

that are just coming out. And some of them are like, man, of tomorrow, right? Or it's like,

that's a big IP summer movie. And, you know, anybody would have made that movie essentially. Like

James Gunn and Peter Safram were the ones who pushed that forward. But the first one to come is

Remain, which in February comes out the new M night Shyamalan movie, which actually screened

Beyond Fest last week. And I'm kicking myself that I was not there. They did a screening

at the director's Village Theater of the sixth sense. Did you see this? No.

They did the screening of the sixth sense of director's Village Theater. There are a series

of Shyamalan films were shown to be on Fest here in LA. And then he came out after the film. And he

said, guys, if I was really cool, I would just like show you Remain right now. But it's not finished

I'm really sorry. You know what? Fuck it. I'm just going to show it to you. And then they just ran

the movie four months before it's coming out. And it got a very positive response. Now it got a

positive response from people sickos who went to go see the sixth sense on like a Wednesday night.

Right. And then we're also able to stay in their seats for another two hour movie unplanned,

which is the target audience for that. It's very savvy. It was smart. Yeah. They generate some nice

buzz for the movie. But you you can't kick yourself for that because how could you have known to go

see not to be too much of a freak, but I just had a feeling that was going to happen. I

I swear to God. I swear to God. And I thought about that with like my travel dates and stuff.

Anyway, I blew it. Number two is the most important movie of the year for you in 2027. It's Paris

Paramount. Yeah. Could not have a more amazing title. Although it may be renamed apparently

according to Nancy Meyers' Instagram because a crew member got a Paris Paramount tattoo

that she Instagrammed. And then she noted that she told him it might change anyway.

That that's kind of what we know about Paris Paramount and the nutshell. That story says it all.

Anyway, this is the much delayed Nancy Meyers written and directed film that was at Netflix with

Scarlett Johansson. And now it is at Warner Brothers soon to be Sky Dance, not with Scarlett Johansson.

And a lot of a lot of information coming about this movie right now. You know, I'm protecting my heart.

We'll wait and see. It's slated for Christmas 2020. I think it has been quite expensive. It's certainly

been shooting for a very long time. And I've seen them building a lot of sets on Nancy's Instagram.

I don't know. That's a big risk. I may not really matter long term because it's happening and it's

coming out no matter what. So Paramount's going to have to market it. And we've got JJ Ayrms'

The Great Beyond, which was delayed one year from November to next October. We've got our friend

Sam Esmail's new movie, starting Julia Roberts Panic carefully, which I'm really looking forward to.

It's coming in the spring. We've got Zach Kregger's The Flood, of course, his follow-up to

Resident Evil, which is an original sci-fi extravagance of what you talked about when he was on the show.

And I suspect we'll probably work just given what Kregger's been up to over the last few years.

And Jennifer Lawrence is going to start on it, right? She is indeed going to start on that.

There you go. I'm excited about that. And then Gladys, which is the spin-off of weapons.

And I wonder if that will still happen because maybe Paramount may want to re-look at the

Weapons IP and do something that they want to do rather than what was pushed forward,

since this is a very valuable property. I don't know what stage Gladys is in right now,

but Kregger's not directing that movie. So if I were Paramount, I'd be looking very closely

at the way they're executing on every single bit of valuable film coming along. There's a

couple of other examples of that. Like, Gremlins 3 is coming out, I think in 2028, directed by Chris

Columbus. Yes, indeed, that Chris Columbus. Not the other Chris Columbus. So the famed explorer

who's been dead for 600 years is directing the film, which is really exciting. And yeah, Gremlins,

what you've seen Gremlins? I don't think so. I think that I've seen, you know, I know what the

Gremlins are. I guess they don't know their mythology. It is a bit of a what is her legend situation,

but I do know what they look like. It's time. It's time. It's this Christmas. It's a Christmas film.

It's time. Do you think my children will like it or is it just for me?

Too scary. Too scary. Oh, too scary. Seven. Maybe for Gremlins? I would say.

Gremlins rocks. Gremlins two all-time classic. One of the greatest films ever made.

Simply put, Gremlins two colon the new batch. An extraordinary satire.

So it does things Digger could never even dream of. Okay, I believe you, because Digger dreamed of

a lot of things, but did very few of them. That's right. What's what's what's Pam and Mike's legacy?

I mean, it feels like the end of an era of Hollywood. And I don't know whether it's the end of

the first hundred years of Hollywood or just the end of this very weird time in Hollywood,

where as you said, big tech companies are coming in and disrupting used intentionally

as the way that films are made and distributed. And so director names, movie stars, theatrical

releases, big original swings don't make sense anymore. And they were the last people doing it.

And now it's done. And we all march into the ocean together with Skydance and its airplane movies.

I hope not. I hope that. I hope that. I hope that. I mean, you've seen a lot of things in New York

this week. There is there are many other things happening in film culture that are exciting. But

they were old school studio heads doing a thing, trying in a lot of ways to recreate what we loved

about the 90s. And every once in a while succeeding. And also coming up against the market realities

of the last five years. And now it's done. Yeah, we're I'm going to keep a close watch on whether or not

they pop up again, because it's not out of the realm of possibility to me that they could appear

at Sony if Tom Rothman retires, you know, I think he's in his early 70s at this point.

Or if Apple continues to build their film department, that's somewhere that they could go. However,

like even this conversation that we're having here, which is again, an extended conversation

about executives on a movie celebration podcast. I think it speaks to a little bit of the morning

and a little bit of my are are shared concerned that their particular skill set is just less meaningful

to the future of the business. And then that impacts the kinds of movies we get to talk about

on the show. But you're right. And I have been seeing some good stuff in New York. And I will we can

talk about that because you've seen a couple of the things as well at this point that are here at

the festival. So on Fridays episode, we'll get into some of the cool stuff that we can preview that

we've liked or not liked out of the festival. Okay. I mean, before we dive into Verity, we do have

some breaking news here this morning, which is that. So, Cario 3 is happening. I don't know if Jack

can pipe in a CR screaming. So, Cario right. Yeah.

Of his lungs. Newse alert. But it's not only happening Emily Blunt, Benicio Del Toro and Josh

Brolin are returning. Did you have you seen So, Cario Day of the Soldado, the second So, Cario film?

I haven't. I've consumed much content of Chris Ryan talking about it. Yeah, sure.

And I almost feel like I should have like a one of those like CR, you know, cut out mass that I

could just put over my face right here. And then I could just pretend to be CR. I'm very happy for him.

Didn't even a new is not directing this. So. Yeah. No, Nora Stefano Solima who directed the second film.

And I'm not seeing Taylor Sheridan's name here in the news either. In fact, Patrick McKinley who

directed the wait, the film we talked about a couple of couple episodes ago. The Ethan Hawke

survival thriller is the new director. And Steve and Knight, a very well-known writer behind

P blinders among other things is writing the screenplay. And I guess I hadn't realized that

Socario was one of those properties that is not actually properly attached to a studio. And that

it's sound the lines gate release the first two movies, not clear who's going to be releasing this

movie. They're going to take it to market. I'm sure Taylor Sheridan stands to profit from this in

some way since he created it. But. And that's always what we worry about. Well, I think he's doing

pretty well. I mean, you heard he bought a ranch. It's crazy. Emily Blunt returning.

I I want nice things for her. She was not into just a. All right, did not make an appearance to one of

the most depraved. Darkly violent films. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the the top line report. And so

I just thought I would leave it to Chris. You know, I've been listening to a lot of Gwen Stefani in

the past few weeks. What Stefani in honor of Emily Blunt and her performance in disclosure day,

which yeah, been overlooked and under appreciated. So whatever she wants to do, you know, that isn't

being Mary Poppins again. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to keep my eye on this one. I think we all will.

Feels bit like cash crab to me. I'm not sure there's another chapter in this story, but you know what?

I await CR's thoughts. That's what I'll say. Okay, let's transition now to our conversation about

Verity, which we'll do right after this. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. There's

nothing better than having friends who support whatever you're into like rewatching a director's

entire catalog and the lead up to their latest release. And like those friends, State Farm is

there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need with so many coverage

options. It's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you. So you can check coverage off

the list and spend more time debating movie rankings. Go online at state farm.com or use the

easily accessible app to get help from one of their local agents, like a good neighbor. State Farm

is there. Okay, Verity. This is the new feature film directed by Michael Showalter. It's written by

Nick Antoska. It's an adaptation of Colleen Hoover's bestselling novel of the same name. It stars

Anne Hathaway, Dakota Johnson and Josh Hartnett. Yes. Set the scene for us. Set the scene for us.

Where were you? The screen or the story? You're screening. I saw it at the AMC Lincoln Square,

one of the greatest movie theaters in America. I saw it in the Dolby room there. Sold out crowd at

noon on a Saturday. Okay. And yeah, there was a buzz in the air. We're about to witness cinema.

You went alone. I went alone. Yeah, no, I wasn't casting around to see if anybody would join me.

That's been their Saturday afternoon with me. I mean, it's something even on a trip to New York

where I'm seeing the great works of cinema and an international film festival. Honestly,

candidly meeting many cool people, some very famous people. I'm having a very fun weekend.

I did go see Verity at an AMC. I guess it's a lone on a Saturday. This is the life that we chose.

A lone at a new non-a Saturday. That's freedom to a parent of a young child.

You're absolutely right. And in that way, I really appreciated it. How did you see it? It's that

you're seen. I went with Yassie Salock to one of the Wednesday night special frit like fans'

preview screenings. Oh, wow. At the, well, I mean, just that you could buy tickets for. Did you have

like a watermelon apple teeny or anything? No, I did have a glass of Kim Crawford, obviously.

And Yassie tried to bring her cheesecake factory meal into the theater and was stopped. So that set sort

of a a tough tone for the night. That absolutely breaks my rule, Amanda. We do not bring meals into

screenings. That's just not okay. Yassie, I love Yassie, but Yassie, please come on. It wasn't me,

first of all. I had a meal at home alone with my child because it was, I went on my second child's

second birthday to see Verity alone. I was like, good night. Happy birthday. And then you

make it sound like you left him at like 3 p.m. I did. I did sort of. I was like, we really,

we got to wrap this up because the tickets, they're, they're for seven 20 buds. So I need you to go

to sleep. It was also the night before his first day of school. So I was like, yeah, yeah,

school. I love you. Bye. Through him and the crib, drove straight to the American and we had the

whole cheesecake factory altercation. And then I got a large glass of Kim Crawford. And we were,

I don't know if we were in the Dolby room or like the prime room, but so I also saw it in AMC

without my children. And it was pretty packed. And this wasn't like a gatekeeping screening. It was

open to the public. You just could if you were very excited about the release of Verity,

go early. And it seems that people did increasingly common now to get the two days early screening,

especially at the major theater chains for movies like this. For anybody who's not aware of it,

I'll give them the description of what happens in the movie, higher to be a ghost writer for

renowned author Verity Crawford. Lowen Ashley's assignment takes a dark turn when she discovers

chilling autobiographical notes. As she rustles with disturbing and twisted confessions about

Verity's husband, she soon finds it hard to separate fiction from reality, manipulation from attraction,

and opportunity from obsession. What did you think of the film Verity?

I've been writing for this, right? Not having read the book and not having seen it. I think I drafted

it and most anticipated whatever. I thought there was possibility for this to be my kind of fun

at the movies. And I did have fun, primarily because I was sitting next to Yassi and I had a large

glass of Kim Crawford. And yeah, I was in the mood to have fun, but I was quite disappointed.

I was really this, this was not the level of trash that I wanted.

No, it's not good. It's not good for Verity of reasons. I think this is an interesting cast,

and we can have a long emotional conversation about the unemotionality of Dakota Johnson at some

point here. But I think given some of the folks who were involved, and the sense that the movie

does seem to have some relationship to its own idea of camp, its own idea of trashiness.

And then it sort of finds itself in having its cake and eating it to scenario where there are times

when Anne Hathaway's performance in particular is so outsized and mannered and specific and

kind of referencing things that make us think of another time. And Josh Hartnett similarly,

I think is in sort of like the Richard Geer role in this film, you know, playing a very specific

kind of man who like maybe cuckled it, but may also be in charge and maybe deviant or maybe isn't.

And Dakota Johnson is somewhere between Sharon Stone and Jean Triple Horn here, you know,

is she the Willowie innocent or is she the voracious feminine psycho?

And so it knows about the archetypes. It has a couple of amusing lines of dialogue or trashy

exploitation style moments. It has excellent production design and costume design. It is

expensive. And when we're talking about this particular genre and even the Colleen Hoover adaptations,

it is noticeably different in a positive way.

Yeah, you should, I think you should talk a little bit about what we can expect at this point

from Colleen Hoover stories though, because this movie isn't basic instinct or jagged edge, you know,

it's not an erotic thriller. It's not like an erotic legal thriller. This is a new kind of

brand of movie that has been born out of her fiction. How would you describe it? Like what are the

signals of it? Very taboo subjects kind of playing into a lot of what is popular in true crime.

Right now there is always an imperiled woman. There's always some sort of evil husband. The relationships

are complicated, sometimes abusive, sometimes violent. There are, there are often kids in danger.

There is, there's just, there's really, really kind of lurid

conflict throughout that is packaged in a way where it serves the lurid interest of the reader,

I think, but also is supposed to make them feel okay about being interested in it because they're

wrapped up in some sort of weird love story or romance most of the time. And so they, I guess

technically are romances, but they're always, I think the phrase in the industry is like,

quote, dark romance because it's always something really messed up. And there's a woman who is

either trying to find herself or find someone else in these extremely, extremely fucked up situations.

Yeah, so this is the fourth adaptation. And you know, four for four in terms of success right now,

we've had the end, it ends with us, which is the Blake Lively Justin Belldoni cultural fiasco

to have regretting you the funniest movie of 2025. We have.

Thousand percent. Reminders of him, which came out earlier this year, the Mike MnRod Tirek

Withers movie. And now we have this movie. This is a very stark cast, Michael Showalter,

you know, to me as a legend forever as a member of the state comedy troupe, one of my favorite

shows is a kid on MTV and has transitioned into what has historically been known as women's

pictures. You know, he directed Jessica Chastain to an Academy Award for her performance as

Tammy Faye Baker. And this movie is in a somewhat similar vein. It's not a docky drama, but it's

sort of a spin on that. His last movie was the idea of you, which also started in Halfway for

Amazon. Also a literary adaptation. Yes. And you know, he has a facility, I guess, with

these kinds of performers, you know, and they're not very many great male directors of female stars.

At this moment, so points for that, I suppose, I just feel like this movie is tilted in an angle

that like makes it relatively unsatisfying. And then also I think has like a truly awful ending.

Stinks. The movie is at war with its source material. And you really do feel like show up,

because the idea of you is also a romance. I think it's broadly in the same genre of,

it's very different audiences, I think, because these audience have, you know, their own

army is that it's a thing. They are, they're very powerful. And you see that in the box office.

But the idea of you is not that dissimilar in that it is adapted from a self-published

romance that had a rabbit online following starring in Halfway. That is about a woman in a creative

field who finds herself in an unusual relationship. And how is she gonna get through it?

The idea of you is that she's found herself in an unusual relationship with Harry Styles

and is navigating like the media. And the, in verity, it's that she's found herself in a relationship

with a man who has a wife in a coma. And is also, and the wife in the coma might also be haunting her.

And also she wants to have the wife in the coma's life because they're both writers. So I,

you can just feel that the film has disdain for the source material or at least, if not disdain feels

really constricted by it and doesn't know what to do with it. And so you mentioned there is kind of

a self-awareness and there are can't be funny moments where I do think the movie and the filmmakers

are making their version of what this, this setup would be. And it is ridiculous. And in Halfway is

basically like playing Joan Collins. And there are funny jump scares and, and, and that aren't scary

that are, that are laughing. And the reveals are sort of interesting. And then

they, they keep being pulled back to like what actually happens in the book. And you can tell that

the film isn't that interested in the source material. And also that the source material,

ultimately, does not really align with this. Can't be, aren't we all having fun here? Isn't this

ridiculous take on the story? And you said it's like having your cake and eating your eating it

too, which it sort of is, but honestly, it ultimately can't have it both ways. And that's why the

ending is so very, very frustrating and falls so flat. Because number one, it doesn't make sense.

But number two, it just any, any adaptive juice that the filmmakers bring to the material,

it kind of gets let's go at the very end. And due to its faithfulness, right? Like,

ultimately by sticking to the script of what's in the bottom of the story. Yeah. And I mean,

we can talk about some of the details of it. The movie, the three previous Colleen Hoover adaptations

are not, there's no wink in any of those three movies. They're very straightforward, sincere,

melodramatic explorations of, as you said, sort of women in very difficult relationships

for lack of a better phrase. And some of them are really, you know, about mortality and some of

them are about abuse and some of them are also just like, I wish I was fucking my husband's brother-in-law.

You know, like, there's always a lot of... But also, there was a car crash. But also, you know,

there was some sort of domestic abuse. Yeah. This movie is about a young writer who is cast

to effectively ghost-right another writer's work after they've been paralyzed. And

I would say roughly 32% of the movie is Dakota Johnson reading.

Which is one of the least cinematic things I've ever seen.

I would say, oh, so you mean just visually? Well, so it's Dakota Johnson reading, but it is

and half the way narrating. So correct. Right. So you're looking at and half way reading in a

beautiful house, which is a real house, by the way, in Armand, New York. But the, but the,

standing in for Vermont. Yes, but the bathroom and the like the stone tub, which is featured

prominently, were the creation of the production designer working with the original designers.

I see. Energy. So shout out to the production designer. Let me tell you, they get great use out of that

tub. They sure do. Right. And so every once in a while, they know what they're doing. And,

I mean, and the house, it is, it is house born. It's so beautiful. And the sweaters are just

just so, and Dakota Johnson's hair is so shiny. It's so shiny. But you're right that she does

spend a lot of time reading. There was one point where she gets in bed to read. And

she's, everyone else is asleep in the house and she's so cozy and she's got this book and she's

in this beautiful like primary suite. And I did think to myself as they showed this, I was like,

that's the life. Like that's all I want in life is to get into a cozy like bed like this. And

be able to read for hours and have no one bother me. I can't do it anymore. So, so even that,

even your note that it's just her reading for a while does understand something about its audience.

Right. It is aspirational to me. That that was not my problem. The problem when they're just

showing the manuscript, right? For a while and you're just seeing lots of insert shots of

the actual text. And it's, it is badly written and boring. That, that was less aspirational.

Yeah. I mean, I'll make a very brief comparison to a movie I've just recently seen that I wrote about

in the newsletter this week or last week, which is coronavirus, which is this small indie

that's about a young PhD professor of philosophy who has learned about the potential existence of

this thing called a coronavirus, which is a device that allows you to effectively see memories

of amazing historical events such as the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. And the movie is literally just

about this, this scholar reading in libraries and trying to learn more about this magical

mystical device that was developed by a Benedictine priest in the 1990s. And the movie is a,

you read the movie. The movie is constantly showing you text during the research of this project,

this exploration translated from Latin or Spanish or Italian or English and then highlighted on

screen. I've never seen a movie like it, the way that the music is used, the way that it's cut,

the reading, the, the act of reading is made into a thriller. This movie is easily a thriller

because there's life and death consequences and we don't know it's a, you know, a plot scheme

of some kind that we're trying to unpack while we're watching the movie. And I, I just found it's

terribly inert and I did not care where it was going. I mean, I guess I kind of sort of wanted to know

what the conclusion was going to be and I regretted wanting to know that when I got to it. But

the vibe is just off. You know, it just isn't really, it never really clicks into place what

the movie ultimately wants to be and maybe it, maybe you're right, it is just that this is kind of

junkie source material and she's, she's trying to write this sort of knowing piece of literary

inward self-locking analysis and it's just so schlocky and unfun. I mean,

we can get to the ending because in a minute because it does also reveal things about

the premise and the setup and the source material that I think are just

insurmountable, you know, it's kind of like one night only where it's like, well, if this is what

it was, then we were just, it was never going to work, you know, and you can, and you can try

your best and you can, you know, condition to go to Johnson's hair as much as you want and make

it look as cozy as possible and they did, but you can't solve this inherent problem. But I

agree with you that I do think I didn't mind the reading so much and I thought Anne Hathway's

narration was so over the top as to be funny, you know, she is doing her best

audible like on quailudes in press impersonation and it's quite funny.

The sex scenes were so poorly shot as to just be confusing. It's not even that they weren't hot,

which they weren't and that we are very far from erotic thriller territory. And, you know,

it honestly seems like they just, there was, there were some blocking issues like they didn't

have the shots that they needed. But it was so slow and the pacing of it all compared with the

couple of moments where they do actually manage to set up the suspense of whatever's going on

with the Verity character and there are some like creepy moments, creepy, they figured out sexy.

There's just, there's nothing. All there is is Josh Hartnitz short gym shorts. That's it.

You know, you clocked those huh? Oh yeah, immediately. I was an incredible choice.

Anne Hathway at a certain point in the film is a stride Josh Hartnitz. Yeah. And it's not really

that steamy. No. And then again, there's also the source material issue of their tide to

something about teeth in a wooden bedpost and being able to see the teeth marks. Yeah.

Which is just, have you done that? It's not logical. You know, it's not going to

work. The teeth are going to break, which is all Yasi and I could talk about in the theater. And

yes, we were whispering. So we were trying to be respectful. But first of all,

and it's not that's not what you would do. Second of all, there is some ergonomic angles. Third

issues, right? Third, your teeth would break. And fourth, how are you, how are your teeth going to

fit into the other woman's teeth marks so perfectly, right? That's a huge spoiler. Yeah.

So you're not a bider. That's what you're saying. Not of, not, you know, I would not a wood,

not a wood, not a wood, not a wood, not a wood. I was about to say that I didn't walk her into it.

Yeah. I think a lot, it's just very mannered. You know, like a lot of it. And if I don't know if

the wood biting is from the book, you know, I assumed it had to be because it was so specific.

I should check with Eileen. You know, my wife Eileen read the novel. She read it in 48 hours

effectively. And I raced to finish it before going to like a 2 p.m. screening on Thursday or

Friday. It was Thursday. And she, she did finish the book. And did not seem like she liked the

movie very much. And maybe even had some regrets. And we talked about this. We talked about this

coming out of Cinemacon and, you know, being handed the book on the way out. Yes. And then

my friend Mary saying, no, you will like it. Yeah. And you know, assuming it is as faithful as it

seems like, that's the biggest problem with it. And, you know, I think generally Anne Hathaway is

innocent. And she's kind of having fun in a different movie. And it feels a little bit like

it's the evil dark mirror version of Gone Girl. Where Gone Girl operates in a very similar fashion.

Where there's a lot of moments where we're reading Amy's diary. And then we're using that as a

portal to flash back on a relationship in a happier time. And the way that this movie kind of

pivots that is that we learn late in the film and really spoiling at this point that a lot of

what's been written in this discovered manifesto autobiography, Exposition Machine, is that it's a

writing exercise that the Anne Hathaway character has taken on to write the most kind of

negative untrue thoughts, the sort of the sort of evil reality that could be

to get into the mind state of the very devilish female characters that she writes in her books.

Which I don't, is that a thing? Is that a known strategy? I mean, only a writer this bad could come

up with a writing exercise, this nonsense. The call was the only way that I could justify it.

Also, the editor in question is named Amanda, who suggests the writing exercise. So I was just

like, why bring me into all of this stuff? But the key to the whole movie, which is this is just a

writing exercise, is about a 90 second flashback montage that is clearly filmed later. And

it's certain it makes no sense. It goes by so fast you don't get any of the motivation of you have

no explanation to what's going on with a variety character or how you're supposed to feel about her.

And Anne Hathaway is innocent, but also wasted in this movie because she doesn't really get to

do anything. They don't even use that much of the flashbacks or of the of the evil character that

turns out was just a writing exercise. I mean, it was just a writing exercise is worse than

it was just a dream or he's a psychopath in terms of explanations for thrillers.

I agree with you. And because of that, we're meant to sit through this movie where she does all of

these terrible things where like she considers, you know, smothering her infant child and she,

you know, regrets being a mother and plots to murder her family and has all of these awful ideas.

And you know, the movie is pitched at a register where you're like, this isn't exactly what happened.

I can tell like a lot of it, particularly like the death of the daughter, which underlines so much

of the movie as this kind of tragic moment that shifted everything is shot from so far at such a

distance that you're almost meant to feel like, well, something is off about this. We know the whole

time. Of course. But the explanation being that this was a writing exercise is so lame. It's so

unconvincing, you know. And I want to give the filmmakers credit of that they are signaling to you

that some things weird here, so you're going through okay. So was it the other kid? Was it Josh Hartman?

Did she actually do it? And it's, you know, what's going on with the nurse? Where did the nurse go?

Yassie asked me this when we got home. Where is this nurse in a terrible wig?

Who seems to be some sort of helper? She's just wandering around. She's always looking at

Dakota Johnson's character very suspiciously as if she's just put something in her food, you know.

And then she just disappears. I think she's almost literally only there to try to

represent a kind of Mrs. Danvers' ask character to remind us of Rebecca. Like I think that's the

only reason that she's there. And then there's no payoff on that or follow through on that. She

doesn't meaningfully participate in the other than leaving. Right. And she's not presence. Yeah.

She announces, hello, I'm leaving. And then you think that that's going to set in motion some sort of,

will she come back? Well, she like, and she just announced that she was leaving. There is absolutely

no follow through to the character. Yeah, I mean, it explains it creates the opportunity for Dakota

Johnson's character to be alone with Ann Hathaway's character in the house after the young boy

injured himself and Josh Hartner needs to take his young son to the

urgent care. And so then that leads to the sort of like, I thought a treacherous conclusion of

the movie that I'm still kind of sorting through what actually even transpired. So let's talk about

it briefly. Okay. Eventually, Josh Hartner does come back with his son and he's been made a way,

at that point, he's made aware of the truth about his wife that she is in fact responsible

for the death of their daughter, according to this autobiography that Dakota Johnson's character

has discovered and Dakota Johnson shares all this information with him. He has handed a printed

manuscript, which she printed out on a brother laser printer that we also have at home.

Shout out brother for the product placement. Great. And so she prints this out then seems to just leave

it in a trash can where no one finds it for at least a week and maybe three to four weeks.

And then she finally picks it up, reads to the end of it. She sets up a baby monitor in a

Verities room so that she can try to catch her in the act of not being there. And she

hands the manuscript over to Josh Hartner and says, look, this is what I found. This is what's

really going on. This is why I set up a baby monitor. Then they go in and he, he's finally in her face,

right? She because low in at first, low in that's the Dakota Johnson character.

The child is named crew C-R-E-W anyway, just just we've encountered this with with every

Hoover movie where all the names are like, ma'am, have a glass of water. Come on. What are we doing?

Lowen? I mean, lowen is at least lowen. I was a crew. How are we spelling crew? It's C-R-E-W.

I just feel like her trick every time is to be like, here's a normal person's name, Ashley

Lowen. What if I made the last name, the first name and the first name, the last name? Like,

all right. Right. Cool. You can keep doing this. Anyway, so lowen has tried to wake her from her

coma and she doesn't wake up, but she lowen and the Josh Hartner character, whose name I don't know

or care about because he's Josh Hartner. Walk back into the room and he gets into her face and

is yelling at her and threatening her. You're never going to see us again. Blah, blah, blah.

And then the moment when the very character breaks the coma and is like, you know,

there's an I started cheering and several people in my audience. That was the one moment where I was

like, this is funny. You skipped over one small detail, which is that the way that lowen tries to

wake her is by sticking a thumbtack into her thumb and making her bleed. And Anne Hathaway

doesn't flinch. She doesn't move. Nothing happens. She doesn't react at all to a thumbtack,

poking her body and bleeding. And then Josh Hartner yells loudly one time and she's like,

hey, whoa, my bad. It's me. I'm here. What else? It's me, Verity. Josh Hartner threatens her

access to her son, you know, and it's the power of a mother's love, right? We can withstand

thumbtacks, but not Josh Hartner threatening us. Yeah, except what happens later, which makes

this more logical. You weren't at all excited when she woke up. You don't get even get a chance

to be because within five seconds he's choking her to death. That's true. That's true. But then,

then you get even let Verity cook. Also, this was the only time we saw the real Verity and not

flashback writing exercise Verity. I still, what does she have to say? I chuckled. Like, I was like,

okay, this is funny because I, you know, I knew that she was faking it, but still they,

that was one of the heightened moments where I was like, okay, this is at least everyone's in on

the same joke right now in this moment. And this is funny. You're right. Then he starts

choking her because in a calling who her adaptation, you can't be more than two seconds away from

domestic abuse and violence. And so the Dakota Johnson character, Loan screams of him to stop,

and then there's a pause. And then what does she say, Sean? What does she say? She says,

you'll crush her Winpipe. And that which I really also left it. I thought that was, I mean,

it's not funny. Don't crush someone's Winpipe. It's none of this is funny, but the way that

Dakota Johnson plays it so solously and then gives the explanation as to how to kill Verity so that

the police will not be suspicious. I, I mean, I didn't laugh out loud, but I chuckled.

Can someone just like hand her a glass of seven up or something before doing a take? Like, wake up.

See, you can't say you'll crush her Winpipe in a blank monotone. That's the only time

where just the blankness makes any sense. And it was really, really, really funny to me. If you're

going to be that blank for the rest of the movie, then just say you're going to crush her Winpipe

like you're barely awake. It's I, I laughed. I thought it was absurd. He does, in fact,

not crush her Winpipe, but close her mouth and nose until Verity suffocates. And then they dump

her body in the lake. And then they've conspired to be together. That's what it turns out that these

two people, Mr. Crawford and, and, and, and, and Lohan Ashley are in love. They have murdered this

evil woman who killed his daughter. And they're ready to ride off into the sunset. We get a smash

cut to seven months later. And it appears that Lohan is pregnant. And they're still in the Vermont

home. The Verity death was ruled the suicide or was ruled in an accidental death. And they're

moving out. They got a house and was in North Carolina, South Carolina, where they going?

Somewhere down south. Yeah. I can't remember if it was North Carolina or Florida. And maybe I'm

just bringing in unfair Florida associations. Yeah. Crew, the young boy is excited. He's got a new mom.

Seems totally over the death of his sister and his mother seems to be handling it quite well.

Right. Um, he's getting ready to be a Southern boy. Happy for him. And he says, oh, hold on,

I gotta go get my drawings. He races back into his room. Mm-hmm. I love to recap, bad movies.

And he gets his drawings. And, and Lohan is like, what are those drawings? Where'd that come from?

And he's like, they're my secret drawings in my secret space. Which sure, that's something that

happens. And it appears that there's a floor board that has been loosed. Yeah. And Lohan clocks

this and this hiding place that this young boy has. She opens it up and what does she find, of course,

but an expositional letter. And I love when that happens in a film. And the letter is handwritten by

Variety to Josh Hartnitz character, Mr. Crawford. Mm-hmm. Explaining everything that he has done to him via letter.

Everything that he has done to her. To her. Yes. Yes. Okay. Everything he has done to her.

Um, and why did she do that, Amanda?

Yeah.

Also, it's not just explaining what he has done to her. But it is also explaining the mechanics of writing

and writing exercises. And how to get into the mind of a villain, right? That's right.

And postpartum depression and love for your children and how to stage a death via car and tree

and anger. Right. I, it's a great question. Is it addressed to him?

Does it say I believe so? I believe so. If you're reading this, then crew and I are gone. And

I think she says that she's ashamed, right? That's so that's why she did it. That's why she

agreed to be in a coma. I'm not defending the explanation. I'm just trying to recall the

contents of the exposition letter. And I think shame is part of it. So then she was just like I

wanted to stay in the coma to be near my son, crew, C-R-E-W. Mm-hmm.

It's very normal. It makes a lot of sense. And it teaches us a lot about writing and womanhood.

Right. But this also explains that Mr. Crawford has taken his, as, taken his wife out

into the forest and put her in a car and dropped a concrete block on the gas pedal,

driven her into a tree in an attempt to murder her. Which is a very, yes. Or made way to murder

someone. Well, but it is the method of death that is described at the end of the fake manuscript,

writing exercise. Right. Because he finds the manuscript as he learns in the letter. And

exactly. He reads it thinking it's real and not a writing exercise. Yes. And then he's so angry

because of what she's done. And she's confessing to killing her child in the fake manuscript.

So who would ever write that? Who would ever put that to words? What are we talking, Amanda?

What is happening here? What is happening here? I don't know. It's such

fucking nonsense. I agree with you. It doesn't, it doesn't make sense. It's clearly all cut

together. And it also is just, it's garbage source material. I mean, that the rot starts in the book.

That's what I have to say. Anyway, so that's why he, he decides to bring the manuscript to life

and actually kill her via tree the way that she kills herself in this book that he doesn't know

is just a writing exercise. And then it doesn't work or she doesn't, she's not fully killed.

She's just in a coma. And then. But then she's kind of not. And then the doctors don't realize that

this is a very wealthy person who's like, fake, like tricked everyone into believing she's in a,

a paralytic state and then can not respond. I don't, well, what's this nurse doing every day?

They do explain that she can eat, she can swallow, she can go to the bathroom.

But that she doesn't like make eye contact or talk. And there's no brain activity.

And it does sort of, they kind of yada yada with it. Like the brain is magical and unexplained,

you know? We, there's so much we don't know about science, you know? Which honestly,

you go to some doctors these days and it's still like, well, there's a lot we don't know.

Great. Thanks so much. So they do yada yada that, but I agree. She's faking

from with everyone. Is she self-medicating?

To like induce a coma state or she's just, I don't think so. I think she's

play acting for an extended period of time. Right. And we do also see that she's still

communicating with her son. Only one time she makes it clear to him that this is their secret.

We don't know that they're consistently talking to each other. That's not made clear to us.

But he does say earlier in the film, my mom me said that I shouldn't talk to you about these things.

And that is what inspires the Dakota Johnson character to go get the baby monitor.

Right. Right. It's it also just isn't yeah. It's the culmination of the hitch cocky and freak out

that is set up throughout the film. So this is good. This is good that this is how we're spending

our time on this podcast. I actually feel great about it because this to me much like Dicker.

It's like I cannot endorse this movie at all. And the success of these films I find quite worrying.

And I and I fucking felt this way with and ends with us. I was like, this is this is not right.

There's something very off about the way that these stories are being told. And

this one to me is like it's not problematic. It's just lousy. But you know the Dakota Johnson

character discovers this letter and reads this letter that Verity has written. And then that makes

her worried that she's now with a psychopath who has murdered his wife and pregnant with her

child. And then they move out of the house and hop in the car for a long drive down south.

And then the movie cuts to black. Yeah. I don't know. I was like, what?

So like are we waiting on Verity too to see if she seeks to avenge the slain Verity by killing

the father of her child? Like, I, is that are we meant to be like, wow, life's crazy. Sometimes

you accidentally marry a murderer. Like, what, what the fuck was that? I have no idea.

Okay. I mean, it's made worse. It's made worse, obviously, by the fact that there was a piece

in Variety over the weekend about the direction that the filmmakers thought about taking this story,

which was there was another ending that had been filmed that, well, why don't you just read the quote

that show Walter shared? Okay. In one version, Loan in that car scene has that moment where she says,

I don't know who to believe one thing's for sure. Verity was a master manipulator, which is

the last line of the film. Again, there's just like top to bottom. Great writing.

Well, the last line is her own hot ones. We forgot about talk about hot ones and

else Cooper as well as components of this movie. That's true. And then she puts on a pair of sunglasses,

leans back and has this very cat with a mouse in its mouth. Look, puts her hand out the window,

and is there driving away and a song is playing? She's making stage directions waves through the air

with her hands. So I'm doing that roller coaster. So the idea is that Loan is the master villain.

And then you cut back to Variety sinking into the lake and her eyes open.

Right. So I'm not I don't think that that's a more logical ending. No, but I do think it's a much

more fun ending. Correct. And if this movie wants to land on this is campy self-knowing trash,

I would have I would have smirked. I would have been like, all right, cool. That's fun. This

wasn't a great success to me, but that was pretty fun. And I'll I can forgive the plotting,

oddities and the writing exercise nonsense. And you're like, I'm the bad sex scenes. Yeah. Yeah.

The Bavarian restaurant. Yeah. Yeah. Man. I have no no notes on the on the tub scene.

No, no. The tub scene was very fun. She looks great in the dress that she borrows from Variety's

closet, which is an insane thing to do. Yes. There is an incredible single white female thing going

on in this that they just completely abandoned. And well, they they abandoned it or they don't they

were having fun with it for a bit. Yeah. I think it is homage generally. And then they stop.

They stop having fun with it. They're like, now we have to feel bad about this for some reason.

Now and and and I think the ending that show author described variety would at least be in keeping

with the this is all ridiculous. Yeah. And but they listened to the focus groups. They listened

to audience testing and audiences. Both audiences who had read the books and not read the books

reportedly did not respond to that ending. They responded to the ending that we got. Which what?

But did they because then the cinema score was a C. So like I you know, what are we

very odd. It's very odd. What I what I reading between the lines because calling Hoover is also

quoted in that variety piece. And she was a consultant on the film. She's involved in all of her

films. Yeah. And she is very happy with the ending, the ending mirrors the book. So I don't I guess it

was focus groups to me. It just reads like they got bullied into doing the book. And they had to stick

they had to stick to the original ending. Yeah, possibly. Possibly. I mean, I'm that's just an

interpretation. I don't know anything. But that they had that the source material is what is so

valuable about this IP. And it is what has the built an audience. And so they were just kind of

stuck with it. And it stinks because I think a more inventive ending would have at least

made us feel better going out of the movie. Yeah, I would have softened the blow for sure. I um

I found this to be quite poor. I thought this was really bad. And uh I and it's got a bunch of

people who I really like. Um I should buy a bunch of people. I mean two people in halfway in

Josh Hartnett. Uh Dakota Johnson. Let's speak on it once more. Okay. You know, she just hosted

SNL over the weekend. Um I think she's a radically better comic performer than she is dramatic actress.

She's had a couple of dramatic parts over the years that I've been okay with that I think they've

effectively utilized her emotional distance. You know her blankness very well. But this is getting

out of hand. This is this is becoming an issue. Um and I addressed this on the materialist pod.

Yeah. We spoke we spoke about Madam Webb. It's it's it's it's time for an intervention. She's

she's stunningly beautiful. She seems like a very smart and cool person. She seems she's quite a good

celebrity. But she is weighing down these feature films. This is an issue.

But put someone first of all who do you want to put in her spot? In this in the film.

Who are you going to cast that has the same mixture of um of aspirational beauty? Honestly she's so

she's so pretty. But also because she's willing to be blank is believable and is slightly younger

than in halfway is believable as the younger figure. I mean there are there are top line actors

that could go into the park. Well I think you knew that because I think Dakota Johnson is cast in

this because she's going to do the press tour and bring in a certain amount of of of audience

a J outside of the Colleen Hoover built an audience. I mean there's the there's the Emma Stone

Jennifer Lawrence Margot Robbie ring of mid 30s actresses who just like would be bet all three of

them would just make the movie better. Yeah. Maybe just make the movie better. And then there's

like another tier. And there's slightly more serious act self-serious actors. But I'll say like

if Daisy Edgar Jones or Alicia Vikander were in this movie. I think they would be better. I just

think they would be better. And for whatever reason Dakota Johnson's got a chokehold on this kind of

thing right now. And I'm sure you come up with a bunch of other. And into armist. If you put

an into armist in this part. Well, I think that's true though they did sort of with the Adrian

Line movie with Ben Affleck deep water. That's right. That I think we're the only people that ever

saw the end of it. And that didn't work out so well. Incredible Tracy Lutz performance. He's

wonderful. As always. The Elizabeth Olson Elizabeth Olson. I don't know because because here's

the here. No. Well, if you're putting Elizabeth Olson in this movie or Daisy Edgar Jones in this

movie, then you're making the serious Colleen Hoover version of this movie. And you're making

it sincere. I don't see you. You had great. Daisy Edgar Jones was in twisters. You know,

the Elizabeth Olson was the scarlet witch. Like it doesn't automatically have to be serious. I don't

think that neither of them are as funny. And Elizabeth Olson was in eternity. And I think that she was

the weakest part of eternity in my experience. She was. And so kind of can't carry the tone that the

film wants to be going for. The problem is that then at the end, they're still making a Colleen

Hoover movie. To me, the issue is that this story is really stupid. And we have to stop making these

books and we need better source material. And I think if Dakota Johnson, like the opening scene,

when she gets splattered with the blood and just doesn't react. And then they're in the bathroom

with Josh Harnett, that's the sexiest part of the movie. And yes. And that is campier and it's

ridiculous. And you know that he's going to be the husband and he's going to be in the meeting.

Like you understand. And the film knows that you understand it's playing in those like very

broad campy registers. And I think the blinkness works there because the blankness paired with the

comedy, like the wink wink of it all does fit in a way that those other people couldn't. And also,

I do think that there's something to see Dakota Johnson movie star though is she in one of these

adaptations. I don't think it's her fault. I do think it's the material's fault.

She was funny in splitsville. Enjoyed that. I just I think she's a comic actress. I feel like

everyone is so confused by her her obvious beauty. Yeah. But they believe that she should be cast

into things like this. And I thought she was almost never works. Very funny in the hot tub scene

in this film. She was she was she was many things. She was many things. But that is but I mean,

she's going for it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. This is a tough one. This is a tough one for the

for the Dakota heads. I don't know what the movie the movie Bafo business. 33 million four for four

for Hoover for different movie studios. She's shepherding this stuff very smartly. She seems to know

what she's doing. How many more more books does she have? I don't even know. She have like 10 books.

I think more. I think she just cranks them out. It's a volume business. Wow. Like CR. Damn.

Ah, okay. So we'll just be doing five more of these. Yeah. Or is this a moratorium on on

Hoover episodes? Well, if actors we like keep making them. I know. I know. That's the thing. We

really like you like two of the three. And I like all three. Yeah. And they, you know, they're

also doing the thing where it's like, Oh, Alison Williams is in this one. And Mike him and Ro. Oh,

my gals. Yeah. Keep casting all my gals. It's tough. It's tough for me.

Alison Williams ones was so good. Historical. Absolutely. Pure. It was like going to see

to hang over for the first time. Roll in the aisles. These are neurotic thrillers. This one is as close

as we've gotten to this. I guess when we talk when we talk about good trash, I'm trying to think

of what is our version of good trash right now that is in our popular culture. Well, I was thinking

a lot about the housemaid and the housemaid too, which I believe the book the housemaid

was written. I don't think in response to Colleen Hoover, but that these these books come of a

similar wave and that this project was I think Greenlit as a like, okay, well, we don't have

Colleen Hoover stuff, but we can buy these books that are also very successful that have a lot

of the same. I mean, you know, and that is like domestic abuse and people having sex in places

that they're not supposed to be having sex. So, you know, related. The housemaid is much more successful

and it is campier and and weirder. And I think the situation itself is also a lot more ridiculous

while also being upsetting, but it shows more and it also has has better set like it probably

is an erotic thriller. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think it is. And I that works for me a lot more

than whatever this is. I was more down on the housemaid than you were I think for similar plotting

reasons, but you know what? If I'm being honest, it would be hard for me to have I would have enjoyed

basically anything because that movie they just very hovened around the fuck out of that movie and

stone is unbelievable. But like if I it's if we had seen sliver in real time or body of evidence,

it would have been hard to be like what a great time like we would have been like the story is

really shitty and like doesn't really work and it would have been hard to appreciate its charms.

So I guess there's a case we made that in a few years you look at Verity and you're like oh,

if I watch it at home and it's a hundred minutes and it's sexy and it's got some funny stuff going

on and look at how and halfway as styled while appearing on hot ones. You know, I think I think

Joan Collins is apt. I was thinking of Daniel Steele a bit watching her too, you know, this sort of like

pearls and the you know, the lady suit, you know, the Nancy Reagan suit and the hair quoft and the

way that it is. Her office is like a sunken living room, tight circular and they they have it

styled in that very like 80s glitz sort of way. So I think the those references are intentional.

Yeah, it's a little odd that she looks that way in 2024 or whatever those interviews are

happening, but it's also kind of funny. How'd you feel about Alex Cooper's performance?

She did okay. She's fine. Yeah, she's fine. She was better than Sean Evans is the hot one

sky, but but also I think that the Sean Evans questions that he asks in the Verity hot ones are

the best writing within Verity because they are the truest to how he asks questions on hot ones.

It was a straight up Sean Evans question. Yeah. And he was like in your stories, what are the nine

is like nine modes of integrity or whatever it was that you were using?

And the delivery was spot on. We didn't get to see her eat any wings though. So that's disappointing.

When will they cast you in a film as a podcast host? Never. I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Many people out there listening thinking about how to get Amanda Dobbins in their movie.

Any closing thoughts here? You feeling good about? No. No. No. No. No. Your life at large.

I'm excited for I'm not excited for the social reckoning, but I'm excited for this weekend and

the other films that we get to talk about. You know, we've been building up October. It's like

October is when all the great stuff happens. And I think we're again, we haven't seen the social

reckoning yet. But we might be zero for three. It could be a very dark month. Yeah. That's kind of

where I have. I think they're all worth discussion. That's the things that is notable. It's like

they fit the bill for the mission of the show. Yeah. But there's no guarantee that we're getting

something great. You know, I was thinking about how when I was talking about Beetlejuice Beetlejuice,

that was like a September movie. And that was a really big movie. It wasn't like a great movie.

It wasn't great to talk about. But then you know, last September was one battle after another.

I remember. And then this past September, we got prime time. That was pretty cool. I really like that.

But it's been it's been it's very soft fall. Yeah. And then we were worried about.

And the festivals were soft. Yeah. And and you know, and then the the Paramount Warner Brothers

Sky Dance of it all, which is official very soon becomes just yeah, it's not it's not ideal.

Here's two things that are happening. You can see everything. Yeah. And will fall.

Those two things I can say with some confidence are worth paying attention to.

And we're going to see everything, including that was not an intentional pun. But we are. We will

be talking about the social reckoning. But I don't know. It's not I'm not like.

This is a little rocky. It's a little rockier than I hoped we would be at this point in the fall.

Yeah. It might be November season. Might not be October's year. Might be November's year.

Could it be in December's year? Egr season.

Could be. We'll see. Great. Okay. What are you going to go do for your rest of your day?

Oh, I'm I'm going to see a film. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that I'm going to see. I'm

seeing the same film you're seeing tonight. Oh, fun. Okay. Great. I'm going to say what I'm seeing.

I'm seeing artificial. Yeah. At the New York Film Festival. Big Gallup premiere at the

Alice Tully Hall. In fact, I have to get going very shortly to go do that. So I'm

Amanda. Thank you. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode. Thanks,

thanks to Remi here in New York for helping us out. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production

support. As Amanda said later this week, we are finally seeing and discussing the legacy

wall of one of our favorite movies of all time. The social network. It's Aaron Storkins,

the social reckoning. He's the writer and the director of that movie. We'll watch it and then we'll

see you then.