The Color of Money with Chris Ryan

You gotta have two things to podcast.

You gotta have brains and you gotta have balls and you gotta have too much of one and not

enough of the other.

It's hard to do old Newman.

It's hard to do.

It's a very distinct voice.

Yeah, good.

Yeah, he's got that, you know, how do you do that?

Come on.

Because it does feel like the second he, he obviously was a man who went gray early,

but there was the moment where the switch flipped and he was like, I'm elder statesman now

and he added some sort of patrician effect to his voice.

But when it, when does old Newman begin?

Is it butch castings at the sting?

No, I'm saying later.

Vertix thing.

He's playing mentor.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Like, that's what it begins.

Right.

But then he's still kind of badass.

I'm like, is it verdict?

Is it a verdict?

He's old.

Yes, that's for sure.

No, but like abs and some malice, he's the same vibe, right?

He needs that.

But you know what I'm saying?

The voice changes.

He becomes Doc Hudson.

He gets a little gravely.

It gets a little, there's a little cigar.

Yeah, what about like slap shot?

I guess you know what?

He's a man who aged perfectly.

He did like every single decade.

He wasn't the Tom Cruise thing of like, I'm fucking clinging on, clinging on.

Yeah.

And then by collateral, he's like, what if I show you a glimpse and then I'll pull that?

Oh, okay.

Here's a question that I'm certain our guest can answer.

And I think you can answer as well, David.

I have never seen Ford Apache, Apache the Bronx.

Absence of malice feels to me like the earliest I can identify, he is playing old man.

I mean.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Remember the voice, but he's definitely like a veteran in that.

Like right?

Like he's like the old fucking drunk at the office.

Right.

I mean, that precinct.

And then they're going to have to shoot a bunch of.

I think that there's also like a relationship to how much a character drinks in the movie

that takes the voice.

Right.

Like how gravely does he want to go?

Because he will like quintet.

What's he like in that?

I just never knew.

I'm hoping cold.

Yeah.

It's a cold ass movie.

I think it's the second hand.

There's the 80s.

And as you said, he aged perfectly.

And I think one of the things that people study about Paul Newman is how distinct his

errors were without bumps where he kept adjusting to the time and identifying correctly.

What is the best movie star I could be right now?

How do I fit the culture?

I think this is only our second Paul Newman film.

After HUD's got.

After the HUD sucker Brock, which HUD sucker.

He's obviously doing full on old man, but also full on evil.

He's playing sort of the comedic, the comedically heightened version of this guy.

What's your favorite news person?

Is it this?

Well, I would probably say it's this or slap shot.

Yeah.

I mean, like, that's a really hard question because the second you asked that five movies

jumped into the front of my mind.

It's not 10, yeah.

But it's this slap shot verdict.

I did.

Verticked I think is the best performance.

I agree.

It's the one he should have won the Oscar for, right?

Not to be rude to today's film, but that's who beats him that year.

Ben Kingsley.

Yeah.

We always come up against this.

It's like, it's just a lot of those Newman losses.

Yeah.

You're like, well, how did he lose?

And then you're like, oh, I guess that was a big one.

We've covered a couple of these films where you go, I don't understand how it's possible

Nick Nolte didn't win best actor for Prince of Tides.

Oh, it was the silence of the Lambs year.

Because you're like, the most historic buzzsaw is the only thing that could have beaten

this performance.

How did he lose for a HUD?

He lost his Sydney Boate.

That's dark.

How did he lose for cool hand Luke, which he maybe, like, you know, maybe that's it.

He loses to Rod Steiger for in the heat of the night.

Steiger's a legend.

That would be what's best picture.

Major film.

Yeah.

It's a major film.

Yeah.

But it's also like he's also up against Warren Beatty for Bonnie and Clyde and Dustin Hoffman

for the graduate.

So it's like there's three young stars, all in kind of the most iconic role.

Yeah.

But then it's interesting because he's and so the Oscars are just like Steiger.

He's the older guy.

You say young star, but there's like a big difference.

He's old.

He's old.

And Hoffman are breaking through at a whole new level.

That's Newman identifying his second phase arguably.

That's the whole thing is like he was the one guy who really successfully without a hitch

made the transition from being a studio system star to a new Hollywood star by seeming

like the cool slightly older guy who gets it.

The way that he kind of treats age in a lot of his movies from like the late 60s on or

early 70s on is always really interesting to me because I think in slap shot, he's supposed

to be playing somebody who's like 41.

Right.

Who's at the absolute end of the line like as a hockey player.

But is like he looks like he's 60 and then in color of money, I think he's supposed to

be in his 60s, but looks kind of like a guy who could be like 45 times, you know, like

the way he dresses the way he moves.

And he obviously remained unbelievably handsome until his dying day.

But there's a lot of power in the fact that he didn't fight it, right?

That he didn't try to look younger.

That he wasn't worried about seeming cool or hot.

I think this is part of what made him survive was that it was like he could always play.

Oh, it's surprising how much this guy is still kind of got it versus being like he's

trying to act a little more.

He's got it than he is.

Yeah.

Like all those movies that like he kind of kept his career with, I felt like he was incredibly

comfortable in his own skin.

He may not have been.

But like when he's making like what nobody's fool and stuff like that, of course, you're

just like, I mean, it was that like metallic sheen felt so natural on him.

Doc Hudson that grill.

He's rare with such comfort and grace.

I've never seen any cars.

Well, he's the local judge of a town.

He's also a car.

He used to be a race car.

He was the fabulous Hudson Hornet and unfortunately he made a mistake.

He turned to too hard.

David, how did he stop this?

I don't know.

I'd love it to stop.

Is that what it is?

He turned to like seeming out.

He basically was, he invented drifting is kind of the tragic backstory of cars.

Is he really?

Yeah.

Kind of.

Like American drifting, not Tokyo drifting.

Correct.

Have you seen cars?

I have.

So it's like lightning McQueen.

Lightning McQueen's like, I want to be the piston cup champion or whatever.

And he's like, well, I was that and he's like, fuck you.

No, you worry.

He's like, I've got the trophies right here, bitch.

And then he's got all these like 50s trophies.

Where's his doc Hollywood basically beat for beat?

But the reveal is that the grumpy old man in town who's like, I force you to community

service is like, actually, I used to be the best racer in the world.

And then he sees him out in the desert, just fucking drifting.

Right.

And on Wilson's like, what?

You're going to do that.

I can't believe that.

I can't believe that.

And he's like, there was a fault in my tires.

You know, I auditioned for nobody's fool, right?

You've told the story many times.

Did you really?

Your only audition, right?

I think so.

Audition is too strong, but they came to my school.

You also forgot you auditioned for Lisbon's lander.

But that was the goal of the jack of tattoo.

And I pierced my name for the original.

And no, for Fincher.

Yeah.

And Fincher was like, Rooney already did that.

It's not, I'm not impressed.

But people forget just how wide that casting net was.

No, nobody's fool was when you were still living in New York, right?

Yeah.

Because that movie came out in 94.

They came to PS87 and they just talked to a bunch of kids.

I mean, I assume they were just casting a net for, I don't even know.

I don't even know what the kid who the kid is.

Sometimes I push back and I acknowledge the privilege I have experienced in my life.

But sometimes I push back on what I feel like from our listeners is an attitude of everything

in New York is like dainty, little, privileged, bubble shit.

And then I consider the fact that basically if you are a child in any school in New York

city, at some point you probably get lassoed into an audition.

I mean, it was just a public school, but yeah, I mean, I do think.

Like movies that would film in like the tri-state area, maybe it happens less now in the

era of fucking self tapes and zooms and whatever.

But I would say like through the 2000s, there was a kind of like New York city if they're

looking for a kid and the directors like, we want someone who's not polished.

Right.

They would just like put up flyers at every single school.

Yeah.

They were, they were, they were shooting that stuff around here too.

Like they, they shot like basketball diaries.

I can't remember if it was at my wife's school or if it was at the like adjacent boy's

school.

Like they were, they were just Hollywood east.

They were just letting a rip.

The role went to Alexander Goodwin who then appeared in box of moon light and mimic.

That could have been you.

Could have been me.

That was about it.

Yeah.

And you should watch cars.

Okay.

No.

Should I like now and then we'll come back?

Yeah.

Well, what is that?

85 minute movie.

I mean, no, it's long.

Oh, God, it's almost two hours long.

That movie is so bad.

It's really bad.

It's like indefensible.

Well, but here's the thing.

Cars two is so much worse.

And then cars three isn't great, but it's so much of a rebound that I would argue that

cars two makes cars three look like cars one.

Do you come out of cars thinking car excellence is not about excellent driving?

I mean, that, that is what the movie is about.

Okay.

You mean kind of the, the F one argument of like, what's the driver really doing here?

Well, more just like you have to be a study of human moves.

Yeah.

That is what the only scene F one one is.

And I didn't realize that it wasn't picking up what you were putting down.

I'll say it's even more.

It's about the driver.

It's about the heart of the driver.

It's about the character of the driver.

This movie has good dialogue.

Yeah.

And it's movie.

Yeah.

Yes.

And I would say the lesson of cars and the lesson of the color of money is it's in the

way that you use it.

I would should be clear is not actually a light of dialogue in the script.

No, but it would be cool.

It would be funny if there's just like I got any advice and we would.

One day if I curate, you know, rep screenings or whatever it my local theater that I own

in this paradise world, I imagine right where I'm like, God, David, this would be part

of a series that I would like to think about of like movies where you want to live the

objectively like stressful low life of the people involved.

Like you watch it and you're like, what's cooler than being a pool hustler who lives at

bars?

And it's like, excuse me.

That's not a good life.

You don't want to know.

No, I think I want it.

I think I want to hang out with these guys all the time.

I was rewatching the hustler the other night and texting you guys about it.

And I said, this is just the best life possible, right?

You got a perfect face and you're a piece of shit.

It's your life sucks.

I think the festival could be like, I want to live inside of this.

Yes.

And a lot of it is, that's the key.

It's like you're watching movie stars play this.

You're watching people with supernatural charisma and incredible good looks live through

objectively the drags.

Yeah.

They're exchanging 20s.

Like it's just like guys smoking and be like you owe me 20.

Now you owe me 40.

The hustlers also a tragedy.

Like I forgot how much that movie is straight up bummer a tragedy.

It's a guy whose life is broken and in trying to sort of solve himself, he experiences greater

tragedy.

But right.

And that's all the backstory for this movie, which is so interesting that he doesn't give

the big monologue explaining what happened in the first film.

Get out of the hustler.

He's sort of a lorry to it.

Yeah.

If Piper Laurie shows up in your movie, nothing goods happening.

It would be funny if they did like one legacy quote, like your next opponent is Minnesota

fat.

And you like, you know, outcomes from the shadows, Gleason old, I mean, was Gleason so

do you know?

So this is obviously like smoking the band.

There was a thing.

There was a he was oh, one year from death.

Yeah.

Gleason dies the next year.

But this is the whole backstory.

Yes.

No, no.

Tell me because I haven't looked at the dust.

We'll get through it more in depth.

But there was a sequel book called the color of money.

They basically only take the title from it.

But the book has major Minnesota fats, which makes sense.

If you're going to write a sequel to the hustler.

Like even when they start developing scripts and go like throw all that out, start fresh.

They kept writing in parts for Minnesota fats.

And Newman was like, I think we should get Gleason back.

And they finally were like, it only made sense to basically have like one extended

We couldn't justify making him a bigger part,

but they offered it to Gleason,

and he was like too small not gonna do it.

Yeah, I mean, like, and Newman was like,

he said and I agreed that his participation in the movie

wouldn't really do much for the story.

Yeah.

Before like, being a force ghost, you know, like,

it's, we were, Sims and I were explaining this movie.

A ball, like, it's just bold, like, I'm sitting in a chair.

Yes?

We were explaining this movie to your friend, Ellen Cushing,

a co-host of your secret podcast.

It's different, everyone, subscribe.

I haven't been a baseball podcast.

Oh, you do?

Yeah, I just recorded my friend's house.

Yeah.

That's great.

But we were trying to explain what this movie is.

She hadn't heard of it.

And I was like, it's the original legacy,

and David went, yeah, you're right.

Like, and Minnesota Fats would have been the original sort

of like cheap pop.

Yeah.

If he showed up for one scene or showed up in the post credits,

that would have been the original like,

the audience applaud when it happens,

but 10 minutes later, they feel gross about it.

I also don't know that the hustler exists in people's

like collective imaginations as like a sentimental favorite

that they're like, could we bring,

could we bring Minnesota Fats back?

Like, it's a cool character.

Yeah.

But it's like, that wouldn't hit the way,

like the way we like work these,

no, like legacy cameos into these new movies.

No, I mean, Jackie Gleason was so iconic

that maybe there's a degree of that.

And he makes the movie, he makes with Jack with Richard Pryor,

the toy is, oh, that's, that's 82.

Yeah.

His final film is Nothing in Common,

which is the Gary Marshall Tom Hanks, bad dad comedy.

Where they're both, they're looking at each other

on the poster going like,

but Gleason's got a stoke.

He told the story many times.

And cigar, but there was a,

the foundation of our friendships,

and I was doing movie trivia night together

at a bar called Videoology.

And there was a question of what is the name of the movie

that Jackie Gleason and Tom Hanks did together.

And I was like, oh, fuck, I can picture the poster

and the two of them looking at each other.

And it's not nothing but trouble.

It's nothing, nothing, and I couldn't figure it out.

And I looked at one of our teammates whose name is K-A-M-E-N.

And I went, comment.

I wouldn't have got it if I wasn't looking at his face

and remembering what his name is.

Gleason could have done it, but yeah.

What was I saying this?

Oh, that you, it's like,

does Minnesota Fats hold the same sort of like cultural

memory as Yoda?

You did discover since that there was a license

but not connected to the movies licensed off the books

only Sega Genesis game.

Genesis and Saturn.

Okay, called Minnesota Fats Pool Legend.

Did you check it out?

Did you buy a Saturn maybe?

No, I think the last four years,

I do is gonna go get even by a Saturn.

It's just so funny.

I was seeing that it's technically the sequel

to a different Billiards game.

And clearly they were just like,

we need our Madden-esque hook.

What's the name that moves units?

We're not gonna pay the Jackie Gleason likeness rights,

but can we just get the name of the character from the book

and put some other fat guy on the call?

Yeah, they have some full motion video

of just Minnesota Fats type.

Mostly it's, you know, pool.

Mostly you're playing pool.

So that looks like basically like a bar,

blackjack machine version of it.

It does.

Yeah, I can't remember if I've ever played a pool

a video game, it never really came into the rotation.

Doesn't feel like a good translation.

I would also say the fact that Billiards is a tabletop game.

Yeah, I like to play video games of things I can't do.

Right, yeah.

Right, right.

You're in a street fighting.

You're playing Sega Genesis in like a Rumpus room

in your dad's basement.

There's like one of my pool.

There's a 20% of fantasy.

There's already a Billiards table next to Genesis.

No, no, no, no, just over here.

It's even better because it's on the TV.

All right.

What is our podcast, Griffin?

Our podcast is called blank check with Griffin and David.

I am, Griffin.

I'm David.

And it's in the way that we use it.

That's right.

It's a podcast about homographies directors

who have massive success early on in their careers

and are given a series of blank checks

to make whatever crazy passion projects they want

and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce

baby.

This is the film that is derisively thought of

as his purest paycheck gig.

That is sort of the weird legacy of this movie

within his career.

We were both arguing that's kind of bullshit,

but it certainly got hit with that at the time.

Must admit though, it is the guarantor

that allows him to immediately then make

last temptation of Christ into his business.

And it's neither of those movies career.

Happened in that way if not for this.

It's table first.

It's career is the right way to put it.

It just, it's right.

His career is in trouble and he takes a gig.

He does a fucking great job with it.

It doesn't feel just as a Oscar.

It makes my life down the metal.

Right.

And it's so well made.

In the lexicon of blank check,

this would be that you say stabilizer.

It's like the guarantor like guarantors.

The term we usually use that that's like the thing that gets you

the blank check.

That let's then give you the blank check.

Right.

You can't call last temptation of blank check

because that's him being like,

I'm going to spend every penny.

Yes.

But I don't get that much.

You know, we're going to get out of the desert.

As you mortgage the house.

Right.

And he's like, if we put a pipe of fire, that'll back in the day.

If I promise to make right fear,

will you let me do this?

But that movie was so risky and he tries to do it for so long.

Like his blank check is gangs of New York.

Yes.

That is his true.

Like, I really, this nonfiction book about

Bowery Gangsters.

Can I have $100 million?

New York New York is also the first blank check.

That's the first form of blank check.

And I would say basically post gangs in New York

most of his 21st century work is blank check.

He does gangs of New York is the most.

Oh, no, 100%.

Right.

But then I think he just enters a phase where it's like,

here's the deal if you want to make him already movie.

Unless it's silence, unless he's back to last temptation,

I know this is so risky that I got to make the smallest version of it possible.

He's like, I want a nine month shoot and $150 million.

Yeah.

And then he also gets, I guess, could you,

the language you use the language of it?

Once the departed comes along and he does the run with decaprio,

it's like, well, I have, I have this guy co-signing the lease.

Exactly.

But stabilizers are the term we haven't used before.

And you're right.

Let's add it to the lexicon because it is a thing that's,

sometimes we'll talk about a comeback film.

But it's like getting this credit limit back up.

That's what it does.

Seven hundred.

It was like four ninety two.

Like Raiders of the Lost Ark as a comeback post 1941 is a pure like,

he bottomed out and then he struck gold as hard as you possibly could.

This is just like everything is kind of safe again.

You know, he still has to like put a lot on the line to make last temptation.

But notably, this was his one movie where he was like,

I'm coming in under schedule, under budget to prove a point.

You know, I looked on Reddit.

Color money is generally agreed to be the first legacy sequel.

Some people are like, just return to Oz count.

It's the year before.

I'm like, not really like because it's not.

I mean, yes, it has the characters, but like it's too weird and it's too weird.

You're not repeating the same designs.

Obviously not seeing the same kind of some people are like, same like an algorithm.

Don't of the dead kind of counts because it was a long like, wait,

but don't be like, they don't have the same characters.

It's just a sequel.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this like the tagline for this movie was the hustler capital H hustler.

Right.

Isn't what he used to be, but he has the next best thing a kid who is.

So it's very much like the hustlers here, their friend, the rejected tagline for this

movie was nine ball is rotation pool.

Who's our guest?

Our guest today in person in studio for the first time.

Very excited and so excited.

Chris Ryan.

Off of well, not by the time this comes out, but you're, you're still kind of

coasting off of CR month.

Yeah.

CR month is extending into.

I was going to say it might be a CR decade now.

I hope.

I mean, yeah, I guess why not meet right?

Why not you?

Everybody else getting to be like kind of a CR month.

But I got to be there.

Yeah, to be there.

And they got to beat the shelter.

Yes, which was great.

Yeah, we salute them and thank them for doing that.

I salute them and thank them for doing that.

And and thank you to Darryl Mori, who as of this recording had just lost his job

at putting together that team.

So will he like have another NBA job or is this it?

I wonder whether or not this is two minutes.

This is like, did we say the team name?

All the law.

Sixers.

The fellow deafies 76ers and this is their general manager, president who got fired

after the season.

Right.

And I'm kind of a king of NBA dorkdom who has maybe, you know, become a little

bit of a fossil.

I think he could do like a very successful podcast if he wanted to do that.

Yeah.

But like does he want to run them in the, I don't know.

Yeah.

I will call out that this is a mini series on the films of Mark Scorsese.

It's called podcast fellas.

Today we're talking about the color of money.

We were originally trying to.

It felt obvious to get you on master and commander the far side of the world.

And we were like, last time we did over Zoom, it'd be really nice to do it in person.

Schedules weren't lining up and around the time where it was like, do we just do master

and commander of resume?

Is there a chance you end up coming here?

We're like, we're in the middle of our March madness thing.

And it looks like it's probably going to shake out to be Tony Scott versus Martin Scorsese.

And you said, well, if that happens, I'm moving to New York and I want every episode.

It did kind of feel like you know what?

Let's, let's save it because between those two guys, you're going to have a pick your passion

about.

And then when it landed on Marty, we said, what are your, you know, and you said, like,

obviously I do any of them, but these five are the big ones immediately felt like

color of money just sort of jumps out as being correct.

The best possible episode in a lot of ways.

There is a rewatchables color of money.

I've listened to it.

Yes.

You bill in Sean, the big three, you know, it's great.

I don't remember all this.

I'm just not done talking about it.

You know, it's like I was kind of like with master and commander.

I was like, ooh, this would be fun because I have never actually done it.

I've never actually like, what's that?

Not binary.

I guess, but maybe eventually it will be and that could have been one because like during

the last year or a month, I had, I would say 85% curatorial power, you know, or I would,

I would be making the suggestions and then or bill would be making the suggestions.

And I would pick or I would suggest for no one always says, it's never truly a blank

track.

It's collaborative.

You know what I mean?

We all have boss.

They're always conditions.

But what were some of the picks?

For the arm month, it was a cardio, a sick, fargo, sick, cardio, sick, cardio,

fargo to live in Dianna LA LA confidential.

And I feel like I'm seeing nice guys, which I feel like this was weirdly like a bunch of

LA movies, which I didn't intention.

And it's true.

You didn't do like an East Coast movie, but it was a very cool month to be able to just

be like, fuck, they shot that right there.

Right.

This is awesome.

You know, it's become a less frequent occurrence as the years have gone on just because

our schedule is as as too many masters to serve.

But Ben, we, we a lot, Ben's choice.

Oh,

every week in a while.

It used to be sort of a palette cleanser between us.

But kind of our closest equivalent, but that if you want to just tell Chris some of the

Ben's choice can and here it,

Latch,

bang under siege to

yes, has never seen under siege.

What oh, now I have.

I have a time hadn't not like a C sequel really preferred.

Okay.

Not the dog.

What's what is it then the Martin True movie?

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Have you not seen it?

I have not.

Oh, I'll check it out.

Yeah.

It's worth it.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's basically the most evil for two or like child 12 year old child who permits.

Uh,

Oh, I remember this.

Yeah, I never saw it, but I do remember like it's sort of like the omen if it's not supernatural,

but the child is played by an adult.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's really fun.

It feels like he possesses a cosmic evil, but he doesn't actually have powers.

Sure.

Right.

Uh, assassins Creed.

Yep.

Fast-bender one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm not aware of another.

Yeah.

Similarly,

a movie Ben loves despite the time he's a Danish.

Assassin's Creed, the original one.

Okay.

Not the old one.

David, just don't talk for a while.

Similarly, Ben had never played a second of any assassins Creed game before.

Interesting.

Choosing a foreign episode,

having watched the movie 20 times.

Sure.

And then most recently edge of tomorrow.

Yeah.

It's tomorrow's great.

But anyway, I mean, like the I, I, I had not talked about master commuter before,

but I obviously I have spoken about color money on rewatchables and then in various,

like, forms of the big picture.

But I still feel like there's, I thought chalk on the stick.

I would be like 15 fucking episodes on the Muppet movie while still every year,

pushing David to be like, can we do the proper Hens and Oz combo series?

And I question, like, have I just shot, you know, my load on this?

Have I shared the takes I ever else?

I'm like, every time I watch that movie, I got new thoughts.

Yeah.

It's an endless well.

I'm never going to run out of stuff to say.

And they're very similar movies.

I'm going up at movie.

I'm just spring a little hammock right under the desk for those.

For the day that's fucking rude.

He says he's going to go on vacation.

I'll just fucking leave me in a room along to monologue.

You won't even notice my swammy to Cambodia.

Another thing about the Swedish shop.

He's not, I wouldn't have much to say.

He's not a big part of that.

Yeah.

Fucking right.

Yeah.

That's right.

Right.

Oh, went to, we went to baseball yesterday.

I was so happy.

We went to baseball as they say.

We went to see the mats defeat the tigers and go in a night too.

You're going tonight?

Yeah.

Subway series.

Got a scene.

Oh, the subway series is starting.

Yeah.

I mean, the mats Yankees.

I liked that as a kid.

Sure.

It's very rare as a kid.

Rare.

Good look.

Now, in case listeners were wondering, you know, was this just a regular sort of night

or day, I should say, out at the the baseball game?

Why was I so interested in going?

It was funny that right.

Griffin was like, should we go like a baseball game?

David's so into the mats.

We could do it as a team.

One second later, just text like Star Wars day.

I found this.

We're going to this one.

Yeah.

Free bobble head.

We got to go.

Oh, you have the bobble head to show up.

Great.

I think we should also do this.

No one can.

Wow.

Very cool.

Yeah.

I do think we should leave some of this for the Mandalorian.

Yeah, we'll talk about what happened.

We're just telling Chris.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

Yeah.

When did you first see this one?

This is some kind of VHS or until in the year.

It's like $88.

$89.

Right.

And 86, how old are you?

Nine.

Yeah.

Your.

Yeah.

So a little, but I wouldn't put it past my dad to have this one.

And I could see nine year old being you being obsessed with this movie immediately.

And I have very early memories because it was the 80s that like I would spend

Sundays not in pool halls, but in bars with my dad where he would be like,

here are some quarters to go play video games in the corner.

And I'm going to sit here for five hours and watch football.

And that's how we both need to go back.

How close are you from being able to do that with your children?

Pretty far.

Yeah.

Pretty far.

I mean, and also, and I wouldn't like, you know, it's not like it, but like I, especially in

Britain, uh, when I moved there and you would like hang out with your friends, dads,

they'd be like, we're going to the pub.

Yeah.

I don't want to look like I will be seen.

Try not to inhale too much secondhand smoke.

You kids run around.

Like, sometimes you go to like a pub that had like a backyard and be like, just

fucking get out of here.

If you want some chips, I'll get you some chips.

But like the, the, when I saw the movie, even before I understood any of what I was watching,

I understood the, the accuracy in which it captured like a certain

feeling of those places.

I was going to say I, when I tried to imagine the cartoon child diversion of you,

I, I imagine you were a little similar to my brother who, if a movie was about sports in

any way, he was 1000% locked in, especially if it's about like the actual, the psychology,

the milieu, the world, the business, any of those things, it didn't matter how mature it was,

how dry it was.

He was just like, I, this is a portal into a world I want to understand.

As I've said before in the show, his ninth birthday party was making all of his friends at

school, watch a VHS of Michael man's Ali.

And it was his seventh time watching.

He's nine. So he's like his assassin's screwed.

Yeah. And he's like, it's interesting politically what he's like, you know, it was just like, if,

there's some prism of sports through this, that's then like an understanding of how adults function.

I was just history or talking about this with somebody else because I was talking about

Excalibur with Paul who works at Radiance and Transmission, the DVD label. And we, we did a pot of,

of his moot podcast called old movies we were talking about Excalibur and I was like, man,

that time in your life where you're actually just watching movies entirely based on your own

personal passions, but not movies. You're like, so if this movie is about a thing that I love,

like King Arthur or baseball or whatever, then I'll watch the movie no matter how good or bad it is.

And I'll watch the movie 45 times. But then eventually that turns into I love movies.

So I want the movie itself to be successful in some aesthetic way. And it's like, this,

this is right at a turning of the page for me, like whenever I actually watched it. And then I've

just returned to it over and over again, just because at any given point in my life, I'm deeply

fascinated by some aspect of it, whether it's Richard Price or some of Saisy or Newman or Cruz or

whatever. So it's just always been there. Is this, do you think this would have been the first

Corsese you saw? Or say, you know, if you're like 10, 11 years old, like it's like, you know,

a question like taxi driver or raging bull yet, like probably not.

No, and if I did, because like my parents would watch movies while I was like kind of like

upstairs, and I would come to the landing and sort of peek down the stairs to see what they're

watching. This is why I remember Miami Vice, always the TV show so vividly is that that was like,

I was not allowed to be there. But I would watch it from like 30 feet away on a down angle.

It was my mom with ER and Seinfeld. Not only two TV shows, she was, but I'm also ER was like,

the double barrel. ER and NYPD Blue were the big two airmen. It's like, all right, out of the room.

And then pretty quickly with the ER, I got to stay in the room because she was like, I guess it's

medical. It's not, it's like you're learning lessons. Yeah, it's not that lurid.

I'm a doctor. I said, I'm a 30 film critic. Then instead I watched Allie McBeal with her.

I don't want to be a lawyer. They all hang out in a fun office and do songs.

Well, that was, that was Ed for us. We were, we were into the bowling alley. Not the sexy lawyer.

Did your dad take you to screenings? Yeah. Well, this was my other question just of the era.

Was your dad ever getting screeners for reviews or was he always going to have like a pretty

robust like the Philadelphia critics would go see and it would be inquire in the daily news.

And the TV critics and, you know, the WHY, why critic and the NPR person.

When fucking things were correct. Yeah, there was like a robust local journalism.

I mean, I was the, my, my sort of earliest, most crystal clear memory of this, of being with him

is for Rocky IV at a real palace on Chestnut Street in Philly. And this was the year before,

Rocky IV is 85, right? Yeah. And him snapping at someone for talking during Rocky IV.

Yeah, the premiere of it. Yeah. We like touch.

Right. This is Rocky IV. We are in Philadelphia. There might be some crowd.

This golden rock. And it's just like, I'm watching this.

It's like, can't you put it together? What's happening here? I'm watching here. I, uh, I was always

fascinated by like, especially I feel like talk shows in the 90s where the host would talk about

like, hey, I, I saw, I saw your movie. The studio sent me a screener. And I would be like,

right, so like David Letterman is watching a new release movie before it's come out on VHS in bed.

Yeah. You think he's watching color of money and then just like, newman's here tonight.

That would always be the implication. And I was always curious about like, what percentage of

film critics are being sent these screeners versus their tongue? They have to go to the

fight. I don't ever remember they're being in advance tape at my dad's house. I think it was just a

lazy fucking talk show host thing. Yeah. I probably didn't see this movie till I was in college and

was sort of like embarking on being like a Scorsese completist or whatever. I was like, oh, I should

watch that one. I definitely saw the hustler when I was a teenager because my dad loved that movie.

I saw the hustler in high school as sort of my, my self-imposed film education. Right.

Uh, I had never seen this movie in full. I had basically, whoa, this was like a chlorophylled

monster like watching it. I was like, I have seen almost every scene of this. Yeah.

But it was a, oh, I'm watching 20 minutes on cable. I'm seeing scenes on YouTube kind of thing.

And it was like a big cable move. Yeah. Right. Yeah. This is all of it. I had never truly like

sat down, watch it from beginning to end. Very, very little of it felt totally new to me. But the

experience of watching it as a whole was. Yeah. And I rewatched the hustler and then watched

this straight through. And I would say probably in there is, there's a long period of time where

I watched the first hour of this a lot. Uh, the first hour of this is like better than citizen cane.

And then, and then it goes into the kind of twilight of middle age, like, yeah,

which is really good. There was a drop off for me. We've been talking about this because some of

the weird movies have this as well, where we were like, a movie that remains excellent. But the

first 45 minutes to an hour feels like hypnotic, like supernaturally powerful. This is dancing

on the edge of a pin. Like this is the best thing I've ever seen. Right. And then, right. And then

the third act, you're kind of like, I guess that makes sense that they did that. But I'm a little

last. The usual hustler, by the way, sort of has that to where like the the opening, uh,

Minnesota fats like challenge is half an hour. There's basically a monocene that is like,

there's a little cold open of seeing do one hustle. And then there's basically half an hour of like

one endless night. That is transfixing. It's hypnotic. So the other thing that immediately grabbed

me about this movie when I was young, even if I couldn't finish it or found the second half of

it to be like incomprehensible just because of like what emotional pain is this guy going through

as he gets manipulated by forced whittaker and stuff. Like it was the language and immediately,

immediately responding in a way like with price and with manate when I was young. I was like,

nobody's taught like, I've never heard people talk like this, but this is how people talk. And

that's that was always the thing that continues to grab me about it. I think similarly,

any movie that introduces its own vocabulary immediately has me leaning in. If it's a vocabulary

that is real, I get the sense of this is giving me a look into a world where people talk this way

rather than just making up fake like planet names or whatever, especially the vocabulary of con artists,

scams, crimes, it's just cracked to me. Yeah. And and pool hustlers. And I mean, I just I still

remember her her saying on the snap Vincent, you're just being like, what? What will then we'll say

on the snap? Do or did you ever play a lot of pool? I did play a fair amount of pool. I was never

that good. Although, I was just pretending you're drunk. It's crazy. I've never done this before.

I'll take any old cubes. Weird luck. But I got I got I think enough of a run in a time in American

history where it was pretty routine to have a pool table in a bar. And now it is increasingly rare.

That is true. I can't remember the last time I was at a bar that had a billier disabled.

So I used to it's so funny to keep saying billier disabled drinkers. I'm very classy. I'm

a classy man. I used to hang out at two bars that still have pool tables. Basically for all my

20s, my best friend was in a band. And every Saturday, band would rehearse. Then I would hang out

with them at the bar. You should just say Jared let with 30 seconds tomorrow. You don't need to be

taking the bassist in an art rock band called thrilling 10. I went to some of those concerts with

that. Yeah. Great. I was always at a and full full circle bar in Williamsburg, which I think

still there where you get free drinks in your birthday. And buttermilk in Park Slope, which is

still there and has a pool table on a, you know, slight slant, but you know, it's there. And I

would play pool all night. I'm terrible. I think objectively. But what's better than fucking

racking some balls of your bro's? There's also like for most of those bar pool tables, they're like,

you know what? The other side of this is right against the wall. So don't put yourself in any

kind of position where you have to shoot from that side of the table. When it's like a Friday night

and like, you know, someone is trying to play pool, but it's so packed that you're like just

getting hit by a stick when you're on your way to the bathroom. You don't say the circumstances,

the setup, the equipment is not ideal, but it's in the way that you use it.

There's also I live near a pool hall. Like not that far. Like in Park Slope, there's

O.C. Stylic. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. Just like a classic, like basement with like 20 pool tables.

And like, I've not been there in years. I the guys who are there are a certain kind of guy.

And I'm not up to playing pool with any of them. They abide by the assassin's greed.

What's the one near aster place?

On university. It might be university billiards or something like that. That sounds right.

That is the classic architecture of up a relatively narrow staircase.

Amsterdam billiards. Yeah. Amsterdam. And then you're like, how we like,

when I'm on their side of the pool tables underneath just a store front. And when you go inside,

it's like, did Charlie Kaufman direct direct this? How is that? How did you guys find like a

full city block of pool tables that go back to this? It's like Disney World where the rides

are never actually in the building they pretend the ride isn't. Yeah. It's in some weird warehouse.

The tram to get to the pool tables. They lower you down underground. It's also one of those places

where like it does not matter what time of day it is. If you walk up those stairs and look out the

window, it's night now. Yeah. Yeah. It's like they basically have poker room lighting where it's

just like, yeah, man, like whatever it's okay if you're here at 11 AM, it's it's it's 9 PM.

I can't say I don't think I've ever played 9 ball. I always played 8 ball. Obviously. Like

what any idiot knows how to play. I played Snooker in Britain sometimes with Snooker is

incredibly different. So I was going to ask. Yeah, please. They have a different name for pool hall.

Like do they call it like a, I don't know, like a fucking snooker parlor? You know what,

I think they spelled with a you a snookerie. Do they have snookeries? Like, or is it just there's

a snooker table? Okay. So this you guys are doing something that is what Americans do, which

they say snooker. I remember my mom would say snooker. Like I moved to England where they

televised snooker on primetime television. Like you turn on I would turn on the TV and she'd be

like, are you watching someone play pool? And I'm like, it's snooker. Like it's like it's fun.

It's it's cool. And it has the is it where they have the little wood like things on the table?

Or is that something else? I have no idea with that. So you guys have a bockered. No, there's like

a version of poor. They have like, I don't know the table top. I remember my uncle had it growing up.

I'll look. Don't know. I mean, in Britain, you call it a pool parlor of billiard hall, whatever,

like you know, but you know snooker. I do know snooker, but snooker and cricket remain like, I

could watch this for 300 years. And not other roles. There's nothing like just Google like

Raniosell have been doing like a perfect break and so cool. But it's like, it's nine reds and

then six or seven colored balls. And you have to do red then color, red then color, red then color,

then color, and then you have to pocket all of the colors in a specific order. It's like very

complex. And it's all about like snookering someone is putting the ball where the other players

going to be fucked. This sounds like some vanhemer's lead taking by billiard's bullshit.

To invoke one of my favorite comedy sketches. I think one of the most ingenious parts of color of

buddy is actually like Scorsese sets up nine ball pretty well. You're like, yeah, you know what? I get

it. You know, I broadly understand. Yeah. And then it's four TV and that they move fast and they

play a lot of games and you can get lucky. No, it's true. It's all so good at not bothering you

at all with like details about it without right like ignoring it. He's also at the second.

Anyone's like, yeah, that's like Scorsese picking up a paycheck. You're like, do you think he's

anything less than thrilled by the potential of how to shoot this game? Because this is not just like

flash style over substance shit. He's got like, you know, Paul Newman and a Richard Price script.

But I feel he is as cinematic. Reconpriced first script. That's wild. You know, kind of like,

hey, this celebrated novelist is writing a screenplay. Like, yeah, it was like a big deal.

But you just feel him like rubbing his hands together and going like, oh, shit.

On the impact of the queue hitting the ball, I could move the camera from here to here. And it's

all like you have found a way to make this game feel ecstatic. The, I mean, we'll talk about the movie.

But like the crash zoom when like, when Newman breaks and you're just like, oh, Martin Scorsese loves

cocaine. Like, you know, like, like, it's just like Martin Scorsese who I don't even know where he

but like, he's like, he understood like, you're just like, Newman's like, oh, shit.

Like, this is the greatest feeling in the world. I forgot. Like, the way it like just jumps on his

face when he finally picks up a cue again. I think he's kicked it by his way.

I know how I would feel if someone like gave me a line. He's basically making a movie

as he's just put his vince to bed and just trying to be in his fast Eddie. I just sell liquor.

I'm going to open the dossier. I'm just saying, and I tell you guys a little bit. I do want to tell

you the right before this movie. He did direct to an episode of Stephen Spielberg's amazing story.

He's called Mirror Mirror. We will be covering that on picture. I don't know much about it. Have you seen

I've only seen the title card that says directed by Martin Scorsese and people being like, we used

to do great things. I mean, I was going to say pretty good title. Yeah. To put on on anything.

A sign of quality. Ben has just kind of like a horror thing. He texted us a photo of a billiards

table. It's called bumper pool. It looks like a fucking pinball table. Yeah, this looks very

complicated. I will say. I would have loved to have played when I was at my own ghost house,

but I was like, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to play this. But that's what I

thought Snooker was. I anyway, it's 24 minute television film six day shoot. He didn't have final cut.

So I don't know that he really enjoyed it, but it was his first ever horror movie or horror thing.

And he loves like, you know, Val Lutin. He loves like Mario Baba. Obviously he's very into like

Roninburg. Like he's into horror. It's funny that he never

shuttereilins the closest. Shuttereilins is his cape fierce pretty hard. Yeah, both of those I would

I would still fundamentally call thrillers. Shuttereilins is definitely the closest. Shuttereilins,

he's really using his horror imagery of those. The touchstones of these guys, right? And it kind

of sounds like this new thing. I didn't fear as well. Yeah, this new, what's it called? It happened

at night. Yeah, it sounds like I have a touch of that. Right? I hope so. It means it's going to be a

little repack. I hear whatever. Right. Yeah. The only time he ever works with Michael came in. I

don't know why I'm talking about this. It's not important. We will cover it on Patreon. Right.

Exactly. Or we'll cover it right after this. He's in a film that I watched relatively recently

because I'm watching a lot of 1986 movies for a big picture draft that may or may not ever happen.

And on a day, the big picture. He is kind of like the third or fourth most important character

in round midnight. The, oh, yeah. Yeah. He is like when Dexter Gordon comes to New York,

the fast-talking like guy who's like, okay, let me take you to the bars. You know, like I'll take

you to your concert, Mr. Dexter Gordon. Chris, we saw the Mandalorian and Grogu last night.

We just went to meet up with him at a bar and how is Dexter Gordon in it? Yeah.

It's Corsese is so good in it. It's in. It actually is crazy. How suited he is to it.

But he came in and told me that Scorsese is in it. And for like a full minute, I was like,

so Martin Scorsese just walks into the bar in the Mandalorian and starts doing Martin Scorsese.

I didn't know he was doing the voice of a, of an alien. Yes. And I don't know if it's Mocap. I

don't think they do much Mocap in these movies. But I will say the creature, they really got his

mannerisms down. Okay. You do feel like you're seeing it through representation of Scorsese on

screen. And the performance is so good. And I would say basically everyone else in the movie is

so wooden. And so it's so out of it. Gripping our armrests, being like, holy shit, he's so fucking

locked it. The other one is good. It's Stephen McKinley Henderson. He is. He's also great as

another alien. Yes. But it is this thing. And I felt the same way watching his, his arc on the studio

last season where I'm like, look, he's he's arguably the greatest living American filmmaker. I want

him to make as many movies as he can with his remaining years, which hopefully are decades ahead of us.

I would love if he got some more acting roles in there as well. I am always so happy any time he

is acting in something. He is always so fucking good. I don't want him to be like, you know what?

It's fun being on the frinking. I'll just do that. No, making films. No, but I love him to do more

one, two scene things. Yeah. Well, around midnight's example that he had been in Paris. He was

scouting locations for last temptation, like, you know, of prior version of it. And like was like

hanging out with Bertrand Tevelle, the guy, you know, the director, links him with Erwin

Winkler, his producer. Of course, and his basically like, you know, he wants to make a film set in

New York, blah, blah, blah. And Bertrand is like, you will have to play the owner of the club,

you know, like, when I do this. And so that is why he's in that film. He's very good. Last

temptation, obviously, is Corsese 80s mountain. Yeah. You know, and he's trying to do it in the early

80s. It fails. And so he makes after hours as a sort of pivot out of that of like, I'll just do

something. After hours is kind of an interesting, it's like a partial, uh, uh, reset movie,

where he just needed to show that he could make something that wasn't a disaster.

He needed to like get back on the horse. Yes. And not just like curl up in a bar.

Incredible movie. Right. It's rules. Yes. But it was a cheap movie. It was made independently.

Warner Brothers releases it. It does okay. He's sort of back in like a safety zone without

necessarily the studios trusting that they could give him a lot of resources and that he would use

it responsibly. That is also another movie, which is somehow not made on cocaine. Yeah.

Where it's just, but it is, it is the sense memory of cocaine for me. It's it's, it's, it's,

both of these movies feel like if I, if I'm going to truly not touch that shit anymore,

it will be the central preoccupation of my art. I need to like work through

one of these five guys of everything I do. I would say like through good fellas, right?

Like, yeah, last time, Tati's the interruption, but he's like, I need to cinematically say goodbye

to this that yeah, it really culminates with the helicopters above every right. And then it's like

goodbye to cocaine. I know I'm, I think I'm good. Yeah. Casino's got got some cocaine. It's

but yeah, but I would not say Casino is like a movie where, uh, you know, cocaine is a main character

in the same way for Sharon Stone. I think you're going to remember when you rewatch. Yeah.

Casino, uh, some other movies he was linked to around them, Dick Tracy. Right. We'll talk about this

whenever we do Warren Beatty, but he was a contender to direct with Warren starring, I believe.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Winter's tale, which has eventually turned into one of the

oddest movies ever made, but at the time, yes, yeah, at the time is like a hot new book. He's attached

to that, but Mark, uh, Helperin, I believe is the novelist, uh, a bio, a biopic of Gershwin,

ring by Paul Schrader, which has never come to pass. Mm hmm. And an adaptation, I can you imagine,

I mean, can you imagine an adaptation of the Elmore Leonard novel La Brava, uh, that Dustin Hoffman

to make. I've never read La Brava. I think that's one of the Detroit ones. Uh, so I think that's a

Detroit crime one. No, no, I'm not, no, it's like Joe La Brava, former Secret Service agent. Oh,

is he in Florida taking pictures? He gets involved with a former movie star. Yeah, that's for

I've never, yeah, Hoffman, you know, who's famously like the most gigantic painting in the

Asuna world is trying to make an into movie for years. It ends up a cannon. Yeah, it never happens.

Life's too short to work with Dustin Hoffman was a off repeated phrase in Hollywood for decades.

Now, color money, Michael Ovitz, guys heard of him speaking of guys with normal energy,

uh, super agent who founded CIA, one of his biggest clients is Paul Newman. And, um, he's,

you know, trying to win his guy in Oscar, he, Paul Newman watches raging bull on, I guess,

Ovitz's recommendation and says like, that's one of the best things I've ever seen. I know if it's

just like, why don't you fucking make a movie with Marty? Like, let's call out another connection.

Jake Lamata is in the hustler as a bartender. Oh, shit. Sure. The real Jake Lamata. Right. Yeah.

So that's a one of the reasons the Paul Newman is leaning in and watching that movie is like,

you know, oh, I'm interested. I knew Jake Lamata. Yeah, I interface with this fucking guy.

And he's seeing like, man, Squarespace, he got him right and as connecting those dots.

There's also, you know, Ovitz was Squarespace, he's neighbor for a long time. I think he lived

under and he, and he'd shared an office with Harry Oflin who was, Squarespace, he's agent back in

the 70s. Yeah. So he's always been into him. But, but, but, I think Ovitz lived near Squarespace,

he during Squarespace and Robbie Robertson staying up all night watching horror movies when they're

and yes, I know, it's just had like a big funnel and he would suck the coke fumes from the next

door window. I don't know if it's in the dossier here, but it sounds like Ovitz when he was like

young and getting started. Yeah. Right. Like, what was living adjacent to Squarespace in that time

and that Squarespace with like, loan him movies, show him movies, bring him upstairs to show him a VHS

that there was a little bit of cinematic education. This is an example of what Ovitz was sort of

smart about is like, Newman's like, I'd like to work with Marty. Sure. And Ovitz is like,

write him a letter. It's going to mean a lot. And Paul Newman's like, what? And he's like,

right, just trust me, like, write him a letter saying you admire him. He envires you. Paul Newman's

like, he does. And he's like, yeah, sure. Like, you know, like, convincing to do this drops the

letter personally to Marty, like, gives him a per and he says, like, Squarespace, he like opens the

letter and like, it lights up even though it is a, it is addressed to Michael Squarespace.

But he forgives that. Yeah. He's still charmed. And, you know, like, you know, I, my guest is

it's sort of like, Ovitz is like, I know he's an artist. He's probably not going to want to do

like a commercial thing. So I'm going to try and like, nudge him towards something commercial.

Can I do a minute or two on Ovitz quickly? Because we talked about him before. But I think this

movie is a good, this is a big Ovitz project. Right. So for people don't know, Michael Ovitz was

one of the founders of CAA, right? And he basically becomes the archetype of the modern agent.

And part of that is sort of being an agent who also functions a little bit more like a manager.

And I think the genius of what he did and, you know, normal guy in our parlance, but to give credit

to what he did successfully. And it had certain negative entail effects on the industry. It was sort

of like, he recognized a golf in the collapse of the studio system that used to be invested in

people's careers. It would have a director or an actor under contract and they would be managing

them long term, not just thinking about how do I get him a gig. But like, what's the arc we're

building here? What's the next era we want to go into? That falls apart, artists get their own

independence. But suddenly it's like, if you're Warren Beatty and you got really good taste and

you're smart and you're driving everything and you have that level of power, you're fine. You just

need an agent to fucking make your contracts, close your deals. But some people don't have the same

kind of vision. And OVITS is like, this is what we're going to build our business on is that we are

thinking long term. It is a career business. It's not a gig to gig business. And the other part of it

is the beginning of like super packaging, right? And that's what this movie is a great example of,

of just like, oh, fuck, if I can put like three insane elements together on paper and then go to

the studios and say like, fuck you, you have five minutes to decide, this is a bidding war.

It starts to change how it's about pool. Nobody's happy. Right?

Like, five minutes to decide. His famous example of this is that he puts together like ghost busters

and goes to all of the studios and is like, like, it's on everyone's table. You know, like,

start bidding. Here's everything. It's like the two funniest men in America from the director of

Stripes and the other guy from Stripes is co-writing it and he's in it. And we're going to have

special effects. And slimer. Right. Slimer's a board. Because slimer's tough. Yeah, slimer's tough to get.

Slimer's offer only. He was a CAA client. But slimer also a huge coke problem. It's funny. It's

funny that you said that that huge slime problem. There was this OVITS dance of him knowing that

Scorsese was such an artistically driven man to to drop my one story I have of working on vinyl

where I had this incredible extent of conversation with Scorsese that I sort of lucked into

where he was talking fairly vulnerably about the criticism of him becoming a paycheck guy.

That he was like still very sensitive about the criticisms of his later period and the idea that

he doesn't care dust things for money now. And he was like, I very earnestly like every movie

I've made I deeply care about. And like some of them I made more money on and some of them are

more passionate to me and some things I developed in this and that. But I like never made a movie

just for money. And you know, he said to me, I remember Michael OVITS coming up to me at a party.

I'm trying to think what the timeline of this would have been. It must have been pre-after hours.

Right. It well, it's post-raging bull, but I don't know.

Sometime in this there are raging bull, king of comedy, Michael OVITS comes up to him at a

post-screen party or post-premier party for one of his movies and says, you know, Marty,

there is a way to make money doing this. I mean, look, we're going to get there. That was

a line he used to lure him into color of money. And there was sort of the dance of him being like,

I'm not going to do something just for money. And he's like, but there's a way to do both.

There is a way to make a movie the way you want to with like incredible assets, like Paul Numen

and also get paid, not lose your house trying to get it made and have it be commercially successful,

which will ultimately speaking to this long-term career vision help you get shit like last

temptation or gangs in New York made. They're not going to give you that if you keep making shit like

king of comedy. Yeah, I'm sure also, I mean, it appeals to two sides of his sensibility. He's at once

like I have archived a neo-realists Serbian movie that eight people have seen. And he's also like

Humphrey Bogart. Love him. Like, let's make like movie stars are awesome and Nali, what is great?

It's the best about him. Yeah. And so many of the filmmakers he grew up loving had careers like that.

I

1984 Walter Tevis publishes the color of money sequel to his novel The Hustler. He dies a long

cancer just a year later. Paul Numen is into it because he's he feels differently about fast

Eddie basically than any other parties played. And he's like, Eddie's not complete at the end of

a hustler. It's not like Butch Cassidy or whatever. Like I often wondered about what he would be

doing now. Like it's not like a thing where like his story just because obviously the hustler ends

with him basically like in a hole. I don't know if this is controversial to say, but up on rewatching

it, I think this is the best of the young Numen performances. I know he's incredible in Butch Cassidy

and Cool Handlewick and whatever. But like it does feel like the hustler gets something very

unique. Yeah. My favorite's HUD. It's HUD. I mean, it's like 100%. Yeah. It's like the best screen

performance of all. He's really fucking astonishing in hustling. Yeah. He's awesome. He's so awesome.

But yeah, it's great because he's so hot and he's so charming. And he plays such assholes

in his movies. And it sure does. You know, it's like he actually like whatever he saw when he

looked in the mirror. Yeah. So divorced from what everybody sees when they look on screen.

It's fascinating because it does feel like there are there actors like him who want to play

unlikable because they feel burdened by their charisma, you know, or the accessibility they have

to people's interests. Right. Ugly me up or make me scarier. Yeah. And it feels performative and

it feels hollow or it feels kind of like self-punished. Yeah. And with him, it feels like a genuine,

not like a genuine reflection of a self-hatred. But there is a very honest probing into the darkest

sides of the psyche that don't feel stunty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways, maybe

a perfect foil or a perfect partner for Scorsese because their

Newman's like, look, like I flash the baby blues and everybody comes to the movie, but then they

get confronted with like the drugs of the human condition. And Scorsese is like, I make camera

move fast. But we're gonna we're gonna actually get in. Yeah. To some pretty dark stuff here. So

it's like it's the perfect medicine and sugar, right? Yeah. That's the other thing that like Newman's

seeing and raging bowl of like, man, this guy's really good at dissecting what makes men terrible.

He really gets it. He's not trying away from that. Okay. So the novel, right? He's into it.

Tevis is given a shot at writing a screenplay. He writes a draft. Another writer does another draft,

no name for that one. I've never read any I didn't I didn't read color of money. The novel,

the tevis novel, I don't think I don't know if the screenplay is around anywhere, but

the reporting on the screenplay is like, it's basically a two-hander with fats and

right. It's more going by the book. It's like Rocky too. Yeah. It's just like, it's like we're old

now and it's Florida, but like we're doing cable TV like exhibitions, but then we're also hustling

each other. It's more like Creed too. Newman still remembers Scorsese. Love raging bowl.

Scorsese has just done just finished on after hours and Paul calls him and is like,

do you want to do a sequel to the hustler? Obviously like,

Scorsese is like, my taste is not in sequels, but I do love Paul Newman. Like, I mean, how do you?

It's like the president calling you being like, I need you to be the secretary of state or whatever.

Also, it's fucking Paul Newman. This held the record for a long time of the biggest gap between

sequel and original film. As you said, there was the return to Oz thing that doesn't really count.

And now we get more and more like your your Sean Legacy is in your Top Gun Mavericks,

where it's just casually fucking right, 37, 40 years later, whatever the fuck it is, you know,

Blade Runner, obviously the Star Wars sequels. At this time, I think that already sounded novel

and different. It's novel. It's novel for sure. But there's also back then sequels are so

derided. Right. Godfather to his feet. Only one that basically is taken seriously.

Yeah. So Newman sits down with him and he's like, Eddie reminds me of, you know, characters you've

dealt with. I feel like we should hear more from him. I've got a script. Scorsese is intrigued.

He does not like the script because it is a literal sequel. Like, you know, basically, like,

it even had like, it was supposed to start with like stuff from the hustle. I think it starts with

like a 10 or 12 minute like or 12 page like, this is from the hustler. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And so, you know, they let the writer who wrote this script, the unnamed writer, one more draft,

that still doesn't they don't like it. He doesn't really like the novel either. So then he's

basically like, can we just drop the novel? We'll keep the title. But otherwise, can we just like

do something? This is the power of the package is you don't go like, well, sorry, you don't like the

script. Thanks for considering this film. Let's find a new director. You go, no, the selling point here

is, of course, Saisy makes the hustler sequel. Yes. So let's figure out the version he wants to make.

So Richard Price, who had written these books like The Wanderers and Blood Brothers and seeing

our like prices sort of like, what sort of early is in his career? But yeah, like his fellow like

four books. And then this marks his departure from novels to do screenplays until he comes back

to right clockers, which clockers is so good. Lush life is like the novel. He writes a

trick book. Yeah. And he worked on a wire later in life and all that. You know, he became such a

luminary. He'd never written a screenplay that had been produced. He'd done some, you know, he'd

done some stuff in Hollywood. He was like a little hung up on a novel, I guess. And obviously,

you make a lot more money writing movies than you do writing novels that may or may not get published.

Yeah. I mean, it's, I rewatch Barton think again recently because it was playing at the Paris

with a tutorial doing a Q&A. And I, you know, it's, it just made me think about like, right,

that's how Hollywood used to run is they would just go to all great novelists and playwrights and

go like, look, you've sitting in office, you're going to pay a lot more and then you can go back

and write your little things. And now it feels like they are the exceptions to the role.

There are the couple you can call out where you're like, that guy kind of successfully made the

leap. Yeah. Who's like the most recent person? I mean, Gillian Flynn kind of did that. Yeah. That's

a good example for sure. I mean, like, uh, Benny off is that. Yeah. It's sort of forgotten. Yeah.

Like he did like two novels and was like, forget it. Yeah. Um, so Newman's course, as he

impressed, sit down in Cal in Malibu. This is how price describes it. Me and Marty, the two New

York guys were on the beach. Marty sitting there with his jacket in his nasal spray. I'm smoking

a cigarette hunched over coughing. Newman comes out all turned up. Mr. Cien ski eating a grapefruit.

We were two clowns with the Hollywood platinum. And then we just hammered out a plot line. Like,

you know, in one day, essentially, like what's fucking Eddie doing now? The novel he like hooks up

with a professor. It's like a romance weird like they open an antique store. Right. Seriously,

the antique store gets burned down and started for spoiling this novel that yeah. Uh, so like,

so Scorsese is basically like, it's not like he's just been doing nothing. He's just gotten like

tougher and meaner to survive or whatever. Like that's kind of, you know, um, but he needs to sort

of reeducate himself to play again. Like that's, that's, you know, the age of 52. He's, you know,

blah, blah, blah. And uh, first time I met Paul Newman, I asked him why this guy would start playing

pool again in his 50s. I said to Paul, why do you race if you don't win every time? Paul

Newman loves a fucking, you know, race car, right? And uh, Newman just sort of looks at him and

goes like, that's the picture. And like the fucking great stuff. You know,

because I mean, that it's like Paul, you're the hottest man alive. Everybody loves your lemonade.

Right. Why do you also go to like limon and drive a car for it? Right. Right.

Are you not satisfied? And he's like, I don't know. There's something in me.

Got a happy marriage. You basically have an uninterrupted decades long, like minted movie star

streak. You still keep on getting in these crazy cars. Right. Yeah. Uh, the first draft comes in

too dark. Uh, Newman's like, I think this is too, uh, you knew you have made him a nightmare piece.

Yeah. It's like, he fell in dragged up to Golgotha. Wait a second. Uh, so they're like,

look, we're making a star vehicle the way, uh, score says it puts us like we're making a suit for

the man, you know, it's got to come out of Paul Newman. Like you can't just like, right, like,

all this like piece of shit dialogue, like you have to imagine, like Paul Newman will be saying.

Like, there needs to be a lot of class. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, they calibrate it and all that.

And it's interesting that like crews is not mentioned for a while. It's like the most fascinating

thing about reading about the making of this movie is this guy's in top gun. The same, like,

it comes out what four or five months earlier, basically. Yeah. Uh, so they hit the lottery in

that sense. Right. He is not in any way doing Tom Cruise things where he's like, it's important

that this happens to my character and it's important. Like that's all right, which is all you hear

might be the last movie where that happened. And it's funny because like his rep is like after this

is like, oh, he wants to work with, uh, just to have all these big, right. He wants to work with big,

and you figure he's the one who's like, Paul, let's get Marty, you know, or whatever, like he's not.

He comes in later. Obviously, uh, you know, risky business was big and predated this,

but it is fascinating that I think of this movie in his arc as being like this is him grabbing

the torch and being like, I'm on the run now. Here we go. I'm, I'm, I'm racing towards the

fucking Olympics. And, uh, this felt like the last time he was just like hired to do something.

I watched he was on Graham Norton during the pandemic's like, because I watched the clip and

they were all sitting very far apart. And so, uh, he told this story about doing what sounds like

the aftermath of the werewolves of London scene where he's outside of the car and he's freezing the

coat anecdote. And the way he tells it, it's not like, and then of course, Paul and I became best

friends after that. I mean, I know that they were close, but it sounds like newman's like,

I got kid, you know, like, hey, but it's just like you're the supporting actor in this. Tom Cruise,

the most controlled man in the world has 10 anecdotes he will share. There are 10 personal things

he will say, right? And one of them, which I feel like he only started sharing in the last 10

years, because I've seen him do in a couple other places. I know he did it on the fucking nervous

podcast, but the anecdote is that they're filming this thing outside and they call cut. And immediately,

Paul Newman has like a pa come over and put a really warm coat.

He's an electric heater. Right. And and Tom Cruise is like rubbing his arms and like freezing.

And Paul Newman says something like 54 pictures, kid.

Basically, implying like, I've learned how to make movies. I know what I need. And that Tom Cruise

looks at it as this moment of like, that's what I'm working towards. Not just the quality of the

movies and the consistency of the run, but to understand how to do this as a job, you know, and

know every angle of what I need to be on top of. Yeah, because he does his

wardrobe fitting in the summer. So he's like, it'll be cool if I'm wearing a leather jacket and a

t-shirt. And it's like, they're shooting in Chicago January. It's gonna be so hot.

So it's the story is that Paul Newman has the level of experience where he can do the math on

every one of these things. He's not just thinking creatively. He's also going like,

well, wait, when is this scene going to film? And that's an exterior and this and that. And I feel

like Richard, I think it would be good if I was inside the Cadillac for that night.

chronologically, that feels like the last story he shares in which there is anything aspirational

in the Tom Cruise persona. When he talks about anything he worked on after that, it is just like,

I sat at the table and I said, this is what we need to do, right? He tells the stories that are like,

I was a little boy and I would repeat movie dialogue while staring at the ceiling while my

family life was depressing. And then there's, I look at Paul Newman and I go, this is the guy I

want to be. And after that, he is self-actualized. It is fascinating that I was saying to you, he must

have shot this before Top Gun because he still looks kind of funky in this, but he shoots Top Gun first,

then shoots this and then has to go back and do reshoots for Top Gun. There's the scene where he's

coming out of the shower in Top Gun. And that's because they had to wet his hair because he had

grown it out. Yeah, they shoot the love scene in like total shadow for the same reason. Exactly.

There's something like that. But it's like he doesn't seem to know what Top Gun's about to do for him.

No, no, the way he's, of course, as he puts it is like, we're getting a little bit of money because

of risky business. He's not unfamous. This casting is closer to hiring Miles Teller for Top Gun

because you're like, he was good in Whiplash. Yeah, not like this is clearly the guy. Fox, they get

cruise aboard. Fox turns it down. Columbia turns it down. This is kind of crazy given the like the

package or whatever. Katzenberg and Eisner Disney grab it. Put it on, you know, it's going to be a

touch. Right. This is they've just taken over there after leaving Paramount, but they make

Newman's salary insurance against Corsese going over budget. So like, of course, as he has such a

reputation post New York, New York and such that they're like even with all this, you know,

even with hours being cheap and yeah, yeah. So he's got the big stars. It's his first time he says

working with a movie star. Like, it's not like De Niro where like it's his friend. Right. It's

different when it's a movie star. You have like four shoes like your brother. He puts it as like,

right. Like, I'm looking at a face that I've been looking at since I was 12. There's a thousand

movies on his face. Newman loves Corsese. Says he's got an incredible eye. He's on you like a hawk.

You can't do like your mannerisms with around him. You know what I mean? Like he's like,

he's immediately like, don't do that. You know, like, or whatever. And Newman's like, right,

can't be lazy or what I can't like do whatever the usual shit is. I also say the best

directions Corsese gave him was don't try to be funny. Right. Sure. Yeah. As an overall, and he was

just like, that's like really smart mature direction. Another right cruise connection. You know,

Michael Chapman who is of course, as he's cinematographer for like raging bull and stuff,

directed all the right moves. So that was another reason Corsese had his eye on cruise. Yeah.

And obviously everyone does their own pool playing, you know, because, you know, they've

got to do it. And obviously cruise gets so into. I was going to say it is part of the cruise

mythology is I feel like this is the first time you hear about him going turbo on rap.

The jump ball shot is the one that an expert does. Because that's the one that he was like,

I'm sure you could make this take days, but it'll be like nine days to get one shot.

It also feels like that's the thing he regrets for the rest of his career.

I couldn't do that. I couldn't done it. I couldn't figure it out. I had more in me. I could

done it. You know, Marty's parents are with him. I don't really. The Marty's parents just kind of

travel around with them. They shot this movie in Chicago. Yeah. But I guess they're just there. Yeah.

Yeah. A cruise like has dinner with them every night. You know, he really loves Marty. Yeah.

I mean, that's just what he's like sauce. Um, good. And they rehearsed the whole thing like,

Newman's very into rehearsals. They block all the scenes out. They do like tons and tons of

rehearsals basically like word for word. So they're incredibly prepared. And so they shop for like

10 weeks and they did it like, you know, no problem. They didn't go over budget or time.

It was under. It was under on both. And it's the only 13 million under 14.5. It's the only time

he did that in his career. And it felt like he needed to do that to prove a point. Right.

They wanted to shoot in New York, but all the kind of classic interesting foolholes were kind of

gone. Toronto, you know, cheap city, obviously, but like way too clean is basically how they put it.

And so they end up in Chicago. They use St. Paul's billiards.

Chris's billiards. Chris's billiards.

Chris's billiards. Chicago's finest. The North Center Bowl. This famous old barf its

Gerald's, which I feel like is like still kind of a classic place that they they turned that into a

pool room. There's so many. I mean, there's that place. What's it? That storefront that's like

Lincoln. What you know, like that's still there. They and they they do go to Atlantic City for

one day to shoot the big tournament with all the, you know, the. Did they shoot any of this

tournament stuff on stages or was that all? Yes, they staged most of it in Chicago's Navy pier.

Like like, but they did some, you know, kind of like establishing. There's a strange

relationship because this movie is kind of a road movie. Yeah. Because they're shooting it all

in Chicago. You're kind of like, are they traveling? Are you traveling from the North side of

Chicago to the South side of Chicago? Like driving. But I always just in my mind,

imagine it being like Cleveland Detroit, you know, Chicago, one more stop at Atlantic City,

like Philly Atlantic City or something like that. This is the second ballhouse movie.

Ballhouse shot after hours. JJ editorializing here our researcher says best, best DP that

score says they ever worked with. I think that's probably true. Yeah, but also JJ, your fire. We

don't pay you for your opinions. But you know, there's a lot of stuff here about, you know,

the kind of bounce lights he used. I'm not going to go into all of this. Come on. What do they call

the, when they, the cameras that could go right behind a cue ball or a pool ball? I mean, they,

I don't know, but I love all that cameras. Oh, yeah. Great name. There you go.

They move the camera a lot. Like, ballhouse is like, I think out of every, like seven out of every

10 shots, the camera's moving. Like it's a tracking shot or moving shot or something. Like Marty

loves to move the camera. I love to move the camera. And you're playing pool, which is just,

it is a game where you just think about people just kind of like rotating around the table constantly,

right? You know what I mean? Like, there is a movement to it. He's doing like all the Spielberg,

like coverage with camera movement. So it'll be like, push in Vince, Pan, Mozel,

back to Vince, tilt down to the pool queue, tilt up to Mozel. And you know what I mean? And it's

like, oh, that's like seven shots, but you just did it with movement, movement, which I think

that's part of the under schedule, under budget thing, right? That's always been a famous

Spielberg thing that he's so forged in the failure of 1941, right? That he adopts repairs,

so excited. So, right. Four radars of just like, I'm going to figure out on the day, what's the

quickest, cleanest, smartest way to do this? And then he holds himself to that standard for the rest

of his career. Scorsese obviously does not, but it does feel like he strategically knows I got to

figure out a way to compress this, to make everyone trust me again. But those more thing kind of

master shots are just exquisite. It also, we've talked about, maybe it has been since I'll leave,

but how there's such a disproportionate amount of great boxing movies to other sports.

It's such a cinematic sport. Part of it is that it's so contained. And there's so few things

you have to track. And it's in such a manageable visual space. I think I'm sure we've talked about

extensively on a raging bull episode, but Billiards is like an even tinier version of that.

You know, it's basically a wide screen frame. And you're just like, it's bright colors.

It's crazy that actually the hustler works as well as it does in black and white.

It's such a strange sports movie. This one, because first of all, I think I take it for granted that,

you know, people would have necessarily grasped at any given moment, where they are in terms of the

scale, the scales of who's winning and who's losing in a match. Because for one thing, some of the

times they're intentionally losing. Sometimes they're winning to set up the fact that they might lose,

it's rotation pool. So it's like sometimes they're kicking ass, but then a guy is like,

it's my turn. You know, like I get to come in boxing is so simple. It's like, you can have never

seen boxing before. I'd be like, I get it. They punch each other until one guy falls down.

Right. And it's, and it's like pool. And the way he shoots pool, it's like, there are often times

where I'm like, I wonder if this is the fifth rack. Yeah. Is it the ninth rack? And like, how,

like, how it's so interesting that he can pull it off without ever being like, I have to stop and

explain everything that's happening here. It's very reliant on the actress performances in that

way, because you need to look to them as a guide of them playing what's the status of the game

right now. And are they working someone or not? But it also means that basically you just need to

depict trick shots. You just need to show us things that look impressive or look unimpressive

in a basic binary way. And then it's helpful that like, you can do these fucking crazy camera moves,

but actually you're just moving the camera two feet because you're tracking a very small ball

in a very contained space. And a shiny ball moving on felt is really cool. It's really fucking cool.

And aren't the rules of nine ball pretty straightforward? They are. I think there's something to that

versus it being a ball. Yeah. Where it's just like, it's very simple. If you get on a run and

then you're able to be the one to get the nine ball in you win. Like it's just, yeah.

I think a ball is also pretty simple. A ball is just solid stripes. I like to play one

ball. That feels like the cleanest attract of just take one ball, even leave the cue to the side.

But they say you just pick it up with your hand. You drop it into the pocket game over.

They say in the movie that like nine ball is more action based. It's faster. It's like Texas hold

them. It's like they it's like the thing you created to make it feel more like a real sport,

not that it's not a real sport. I mean, I've watched like I said, I've watched televised

Snooker. I've never really seen televised pool. Like I'm not really aware of like you clearly

are not watching ESPN 2 late enough. Yeah. Two in the 90s. Yeah. I feel like they were built on

that. Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't know what what's the like state of professional pool playing these days.

I don't know actually. Like there was a I'm not being funny. Like there was a run there where

there was. Back when he was being had less stops. And when they were just it's bowling and pool

after sports centers. Like that's what we got. But I don't remember the last time I I was like

this is the most famous pool player. I was about to say like who right? Who's the best pool player?

Whereas like in I can't I can't run around yourself and baby like Steven Hendry. I can name like

the great Snooker players of my childhood. But I don't know who's good at pool. Like once in a while

you'll see a bowling clip, which is always fun. Like you know, some guy being like,

that's that's why I'm the goat. And you're like, I guess that guy's the goat. And those guys

now all wear like phantom's gloves. Wait, isn't that just like a cybernetic arm?

Obviously there's like a Britain has darts, which is the funniest televised sport because everyone

is morbidly obese. And it's in a giant bar where every like the whole crowd is just hammered.

That honestly though is like maybe the greatest televised. It's so good. It's watching guys.

It's like they're all named Ronnie, you know, and like people are losing their mind.

One hundred and eighty. There's the guy who yells. And the other got the crazy thing about Snooker

is it's always like best of 33. Like we're like, what's the score? And he's like he's up 11 to

seven. And I'm like, and what does he need? They're like, I don't know, 18. It's like it's such a,

I don't understand who's going to see it in person. You go to Sheffield. It's called the Crucible.

Yeah. The place where they and it's it's crazy. There's a packed crowd watching it. It can't be a real

country. No, I was going to say also, why does it feel like so many British sports are like

durational to prove a point? Like people can play in about American baseball. But like,

that's American baseball. You know what? You know what? We have enough listeners. Someone

explaining this because I don't know. The answer is probably like, what do you mean? Like a Snooker

game is 20 minutes. Like it has to be that I have no idea. Like I don't know. All I know is I

used to watch when I was a kid, the game show, the big break hosted by Jim Davidson, who later

became one of Britain's more prominent pro Brexit celebrities back in the day, a hilarious light

entertainer that was like a Snooker game show. That's how popular stooker wasn't Britain.

Anyway, I looked it up. Carlo Biotto of the Philippines won the 2025

World Pool Association nine ball championship. He kind of looks like a badass. I kind of like his

vibe. Maybe if we ever get a color of money where Vince is the old man, Carlo couldn't be the

Vince. Like do you need to be in good shape to believe good at pool? I mean, to stand a lot.

Got a bit over. You need a good back. Do you need like, you know, some shoulder strength?

For sure. Right. You got to have like professional video game players like get worse when they're

older and you're like, really? And it's like, yeah, man, like being young, like your brain works better,

you know, where it's like even thumbs fail. Even fuck this. Like it is better when you're younger.

I know we need to dig into the movie proper. I just need to pick up this thread that C. Ardress dropped

because I was thinking this while watching. Like if Digger doesn't work, just cruise go. It's

time to make the Vince legacy cool. Watching this, it felt really obvious to me that if he didn't have

Newman, no, but he's the guy. No, I understand. It would just be like cool to have

Newman have the one scene where he's like, kid, you got it. It would be the young then casting.

I don't know. Young Tyler and Maverick. Yeah. Who is it now? I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know who it is, but I just was like of all the legacy sequins. He's talking about doing

that. Days of thunder two. He's talking about doing to really shouldn't do days of. I agree.

No, that is a huge miss. Especially post F1. There's nothing that there's to be said.

There's no room for you here in your tool. Yep. Is there, yeah, is there another cruise like a

sequel that makes it? Yeah, but the other part of that is that cruise does genuinely love

erasing. And he said the Paul Newman's the one who got him into it on while filming this move.

Sounds like the kind of bullshit he'd say. Have you read this group for rain men yet?

Let's get off the back. Now, but it's just also like a bunch of. Yeah, many, many. Yeah.

Oh, he's right. He's had a lot of kids. Yeah, they have to go collect all the rain men.

It's just such an obvious thing where like the color of money Oscar feels like short hand for

a kind of gold watch performance. You know, it becomes the representation for even what true

grit is of like what's the obvious kind of elder statesmen you are looking back on your legacy

and sort of like your movie stardom. We got to give it to this guy Oscar. When?

Well, to your point about him obviously taking a supporting role in being like in some ways

third chair on on this movie compared to Newman and Scorsesey, it's not maybe not unique in his

films, but it is very it's very clear that like Vince is almost the villain of the end of this movie

in some ways and that the movie frames it as like this is the problem with this is what we lost

culturally. Yeah, yes, look at how unseemly these guys are. And then it's like for the first two

thirds of the movies, he's just like regarding Newman. Yeah, he gets mad at him a couple times,

but for the most part, he's just like Eddie, you're the man, like just show me the ways of the force.

You know, like and it's it's so different from the way he now is so in touch with I want people

to think this about me at this moment in the movie. You know, and then they have to think this is

going to happen, but they know I'm going to prevail. You know, so the fact that crews keeps making

baton past movies where he refuses to pass the baton. You know, obviously there's the whole

runner thing with mission impossible, but then it's also what's fascinating about

Maverick is that it's like, no, I'm not going to die. I'm going to save Miles Teller.

The movie ends with me being like and I'm still fucking you like it. Yeah, Maverick, you did.

Right. It's not about me elevating the other guy. Yeah. It does feel like I don't know. If they

announced tomorrow, like he's got Benny Safdie or Josh, Josh Safdie, I guess is the more exciting

pick, right? Working on a Vince movie. Right. Do people get interested? If it's the right

chapter, if it's the right writer, yeah, sure. I mean, this is the one where you're like, well,

I could buy him playing pool. Yeah. Like versus Days of Thunder, where it's like, get out of the

car, Tom, like, you know, like, I'm trying, I'm looking at his 80s. It's funny. It's like,

he's good at the movie right after this. cocktail is an 88. So he doesn't make a movie in 87.

So cocktails his next film feels like what you're saying of the first time where he's like,

no, I'm the best bartender. Right. The arc of that movie is guy stumbles into a thing.

Immediately comes better and everyone else in the world. His challenges that no one will give him

that credit basically. And then a woman does. But like cocktail is apologies to Bill Simmons,

a terrible movie. Yeah. Yeah. A man just a man of fun. It's a good fun. It's a dog shit move.

It's stupid. Stupid. Stupid. I love it. But it's fun. Yeah. But he, you know, he's got that

in 80, 80 balances. It with rainman where it's like, once again, I'm working with a big director.

I'm opposite a bigger actor. He in my opinion, he steals rainman out from Hoffman. I feel like

that's sort of become the majority opinion of that's that's the performance. At the time,

it obviously that's not the case. Didn't even get nominated. How do people feel about rainman now?

We did as rewatchable recently. If you guys done it in a, we've never done leavenson because he's

one of those classic guys of like the latter half of his career. Yeah. You'd be like watching the day,

which I kind of like, but, but you'd be like, okay, if you want to rock the cash box. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know what like the one where Ben Foster is a boxer. Right. That's an HBO one.

Maybe we could skip that. It's just a, it's a really with skip it. Weird movie. Yeah.

It's a very, very watchable move for sure. But it's just like, you're like,

us, it's about a car salesman who has a little bit of money trouble and then finds out he has a

brother. Right. The stakes of it are oddly low. It's the thing about it is this obviously,

you could never do a movie like that today. The Hoffman performances would now be seen as

insensitive or whatever. It's an incredibly moving movie just like, you know, just the gut,

you know, the way it works. I think most of the crazy also, oh, it's good script, but it's a good

script. It is crazy. It's not a movie I've seen a lot. I've seen like, no, it's crazy when you look

at it and you're like, everyone wanted to make that script. There were so many versions of that

movie with different a list actors and different directors where you're like, you know,

Spielberg almost makes it with Bill Murray in the Hoffman Park. Like people were like tripping

over themselves to get the chance to make this film. And then it sweeps the Oscars and it's the

highest grossing film of its year. It sure was. And so like, I guess that's part of the cruise

touch at that point. And then the next year he does born on the 4th of July, which I feel like

is the moment where it's like, okay, you're a certified great actor. But then he follows it with

like days of thunder, far and away. If you could mend the firm interview with the vampire

mission impossible, a lot of like very sort of sort of crowd forward movies. Like he doesn't make

another really like, I mean, I guess far and away is trying to be a series. Far and away is trying.

Yeah. And I think all those movies. Look, sorry, I was just I got excited. A few good men like a

sequel. The last bunch, a bunch of great people. You're going more. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of great

people in the military. Yeah. That's the argument for the movie. Nothing excites me more than the

sound of a, uh, look, Nicholson still alive. Yeah. He appears to be retired. Guantanamo, you know,

it's gone through a couple of iterations. I was going to, you know, rebound it like, you know,

I was going to say, Sorkin, Legasequal are the scariest words currently plaguing the modern movie

landscape. He's up to no good. But then I'm realizing that's that's another example of it's not

fincher doing the legasequal with an entirely different cast, but it is Sorkin making his own

legasequal with the punch on that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, right. We were talking about that off mic. We're

saying how weird it is that he too is the same guy making a movie with new cast, uh, as the same

characters recasting every role. Yeah. A few good men obviously. Rob Rhiner recently died. That

is tragic. That probably makes a few good men like a sequel, even less likely. Uh, also what would

it be about also what are you? What what are we doing here? Apparently, I mean, are there still lawyers

and inquiries? Yeah. The judge checks the truth social fear and sees what Trump has said and makes

his decision like, I mean, by the time this episode comes out, maybe the social reckoning trailer

is out there almost definitely that movie is by all accounts like 90% courtroom. It sounds like

that's the, the, the just of it. He's really good at that stuff. You know, or like he knows how to

but that might be what if you're a few good men like a sequel might be a few bad when

they listen to Tom Cruise is a Jack, Tom Cruise is a judge advocate general in a few good men.

Yes. Jack as we all know, NCIS is based on Jack is a spin off technically spin off for the TV show

Jack. We all know this. The like a sequel is them on tangle the media rights of NCIS in a court.

Oh, that would be fun. And it's just kind of like, wait, and this counts to like,

LL Cool J's testifying for some reason, right? You know, just like digging into all of that.

Now there's the NCIS spin off that's young Mark Harmon that's created by Mark Harmon's son,

but Mark Harmon's son doesn't play. He was recast young Mark Harmon. Even though he played young

Mark Harmon on and said this is Chris O'Donnell going to play the key for Southern

Lindrow have like, you know, like, like, Magga kind of like, like, somewhat coded. Right? We're

really, you, what were you doing? No, that's, um, let's talk about the color money.

Let's talk about the color. Oh my god. It opens like many great films do with Martin

Scorsese, the director doing voice over. Yeah. He's not a character in the film. Yeah.

Just being like, um, let me explain nothing to you. Uh, the most grotesque and also the most

beautiful image of a cigarette where you're like, I gotta have that immediately. I'm just also like,

look at that smoke and drink. So bad. Look at that ash falling off of it. That's what goes to

your lungs. This is the worst thing that we've ever done to ourselves. As a former smoker,

that this is triggering. You wanted to go. I need to drink and smoke. I never smoked to

cigarette my life movies like this. I'm just again, I'm like, I need to move into a pool hall.

I need to become addicted to brown liquid. That makes my head smell.

I was like, this needs to be a mandatory road trip thing. We're like, uh, like some old head

and like a 20 something have to like be linked up. And it doesn't even have to be like that.

I need to learn how to be a pool hustler. But they have to learn some, but I just want to like

scum apprenticeship. Yeah. Scum apprentice would be a great franchise. Yeah.

Interesting. Interesting. A Ben has a franchise who's been trying to launch for children

called scum friends. Yes. Okay. Look, it's a big 10. You know, we could have g-rated stuff,

but we could also then scum apprentice is like, we're going in and we're learning about hustling

and friends and scum friends is sort of that's metaphorically what it's about that we should not

cast judgment on the. Yes. The art and society, but it's literally physical manifestations of

like, uh, live in the pipe. Yeah. It's like, I'm a professional. I knew Chris would get this.

I'm a professional pool player. I say to a woman in a bar. Yeah. And she's like, oh, so you're like

a low life. Then below that is like, I'm a professional pool player who often pretends to be bad.

And so I can score money off of people. I'm going to get night outside where it's like, wait,

you found a scum here version of professional pool player to be?

What were you not satisfied just being in pool all the time? I think it's not the thing about how

appealing the world of this movie is to us. My friend Alejandro had a joke he used to tell about

where he would refer to, uh, liquor as magic water that makes you sick.

And for how much this movie is about drinking. Yeah. A liquor salesman and it makes it look

fucking awesome. You're also like, putting glasses into people's mouths being like, taste that sweet,

sweet whiskey. But it's also, this isn't like mad men drinking. This is like, you see like,

oh, right, the magic water makes you sick. This guy looks bad. Yeah. He's depressed. I feel like

East Coast for five days. I haven't had a vegetable. And it's not even like focused romantic,

like self punishing, bookowski drinking. It's actually just like, no, but I can feel my body slowly

dying, just doing like three days of this. And that's what he does every morning. Like he

probably are no mornings because all he does is get up at 4 p.m. You feel this movie in your time.

And meets with a woman who's inexplicably wearing a kimono and is like, try this old McDowell.

It's like, I mean, it's bondage.

It's magical. I don't know what to say.

In your lips. It's the, the Mulaney joke of like, did the bet, did the bathroom

was a strolling Cooper?

So for Christ's time, I go on to house. I'm not watching this movie being like, I wonder what kind

of shit Paul Newman takes. But like the second you start thinking about it, like, right, you're like,

right, we're not watching six hours of the guy on the John with a paper, like, which is must be

built. They're eating at diners and white caps. Exactly. And they, and they smoke and drink all day.

Yes. Yeah. And the hottest any man has ever been. But in that way, same as slap shot. Yeah.

He is, he's correctly depicted as like, as a like battered piece of shit. And yet he's still the

hottest thing you've ever seen. I mean, the verdict like this. In the verdict, you're like, oh, no.

Like, I mean, and like he is so fucked up. Yeah. And in the verdict, he's also like, I'm an

ambulance. He's like, I got my apartment, which is also my office. That would be really nice.

One, it's like, you're like, you're a pool player. That's cool. And the verdict, you're like, wow,

you, you suck. There's like the first time you said a verdict like cool glasses, you know,

the good first time you see the first. Oh no. And you first watch it. You're just like,

boy, they're, gals out there like Charlotte ramp, they would go for gas like this. Because

that can open up a lot of windows for me. And then you realize it's a scam. He's doing things

right. He's the hustler in that movie. I think on the big pic legal draft, I call that the

greatest burnished wood movie of all time. This one has a, but this is on the podium. It's

in there. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I asked for and did not receive one of the most unique creations

in furniture history, which is the pool hall. Chair. Okay. You wanted to podcast from

Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You sent us a photo. Yes. The screenshot. Elivated wouldn't throne.

Yeah. That overlooks so that you get like a good angle on the action.

Technically known as a spectator chair. I was going to say it almost looks like a lifeguard

chair or like a fucking. Or like a director's chair in a weird. Yeah. And it also looks a little

bit like a shoe shine chair. But like the way that in that opening sequence, uh, when Vince is

playing Julian, Carmen's there were meeting all the main characters. He kind of just

saddles up there and is like, I'm going to stretch my legs out and put my arm out over like the

other side of the chair, but I'm looking down on Carmen. And I'm like, where did you fucking find

this stuff? I mean, I guess it's still, this was made at a time when they just still had those

places look like they didn't. I think so. They just in prison in amber. Yeah. Also, man,

Newman just fucking knew how to strike a pose. And he could do it in a way where it felt natural.

It wasn't like he was doing some overly expressive John Wayne thing.

But that guy could just fucking sit and hold the frame and just know like if I just lean like

10% of my weight over to this side. Um, the king. He is retired. He's a liquor salesman. He lives

in Chicago. Yeah. Um, but he still hangs out of pool halls all the time. He's a day younger

player. He wants to watch. Yeah, he likes to watch. Yeah. He's got to definitely not at all long

suffering girlfriend played by Helen Shaver. No, who becomes like one of TVs. Yeah, she's done a

greatest. Derevans. Yeah. Uh, that's oh, I didn't really. Yeah. Wow. She has a huge

directing thing. Like she directed like two episodes of the penguin. Like she's still to this day.

One of the most awarded TV director. Yeah. She's working hard. Uh, but yes, no, uh, tough break for her.

Yeah, dating him. Sure. Yes. Um, and he's, uh, the player he's staking is a John Tattaro

who is calm, cool, collected. Uncooking. Just back to the guy who likes to play video. When the phone

when the phone rang. Yeah. John Tattaro says, it's like, hey, we want you to play a little rat

piece of shit. He's playing us. Quiggle is what? It's like, do you like my character? That

cool traits? He's like, yeah, you have a rock of coke in your nose. He looks like fear from inside

out. So goodness. He's great. He's always good in these movies like, incredible.

I know. This is his career. It's insane how he's already short handcasting. Yeah.

In a way that is so bad. The audience is just like, boom.

That's what the prototype called Tom Cruise immediately. I need the first time I saw him

with Miller's crossing it. I was like, you fucking piece of shit. It's just like this

Miller's crossing quiz show that kind of trifecta. Everyone just being like, there's something I

don't like about you. I rewatched quiz show. I guess after Redford died, it does feel like a movie

I watched once a year. And every time I watch it, I just don't understand how he didn't like

win the Oscar that year, let alone get nominated. But because it's the meta-textual one where it's

just like, even if you're the best, we just kind of, there's something about you. I feel like he's

settled into his own interesting elder statesman mode. Yeah. I mean, like,

we're thinking about him on the back as that energy. Like him in the Batman, where it's like,

I can play like an icy mob boss with like, you know, shaded glasses and people like, yeah,

of course, you're, you are an elder statesman. And he's like, hot now too. You're also like,

old tutorials hot. He's got a, he directed a film that's coming out soon, right? Like, the only

pick pocket New York or something. No, no, no, a Seagun directed that. Oh, he directed,

but yeah, but I've heard it. It's incredible. And that like a friend of mine who saw that movie

was like, this is like the tutorial career lifetime achievement. Obviously, he has directed many

great films such as The Jesus Rolls. Are you aware? So I, because I brought this up to someone

else recently who was astonished by this news, The Jesus Rolls, which of course was the Jesus

Santana sidequel to Big Lebowski that he made without the participation of the, the Coen Brothers.

With their blessing, the passive bless. If we don't have to show up, you can do whatever you want.

That movie is a remake. In addition to being a sidequel to Big Lebowski, it is him transposing

that character onto a straight remake of going places. The movie hitmaker recently called out.

The Departure do Bertrand Biliette. Yeah, 100%. It is like, it's a sex challenge road trip movie.

It is credited as like based on going places. Okay. Yeah, I want to remind everyone that the

character of The Jesus in The Big Lebowski is a sexual predator. Yeah.

Convicted child molest. Yes. Yeah. And John Tuturo was like, you know, it'd be good. Make a

whole movie out of that guy. That morning on the road. Is it his redemption? No, it's like him and his

friend like daring each other to do weird sex stuff. Just one of the weirdest things ever made.

People were like, why aren't you guys covering that on Patreon? I'm like, I don't know. I want to

be able to sleep. So you're staking Vincent, Lauria. Right. No, sorry. No, Vincent is Thomas.

Tom Cruise at what's taking Julian right? Vincent kicks his ass. And what's the video game? He's

obsessed. Docker. Is that is that a real video? It apparently influenced the actual video game.

Doom. But I it to me, it just looks like Spy Hunter or like pole position or some 80s,

you know, car racing game. And now where would you guys rank this in the the Tron franchise?

I think I like the original Tron more than this, but this one's better than Aries. What was the video

game in last Starfighter? Was it just called last Starfighter? It's called Starfighter. Starfighter.

Yeah. That was always pretty sick to me. But yeah, uh, stalker seems pretty. Yeah. It's weird

that he's like my, my like motor skills are so elevated because of stalker. That's like,

that doesn't really, that's not how it happens. But I'm sure it's a Disney thing, but I just

genuinely love that there's a Tron cabinet in this. And obviously the Tron cabinet was like real

and was more successful than the movie and stay in our kids for years. But it does make it feel like

this is a movie that takes place in the world of Tron. That would be so incredible. Yeah. Uh, so he,

you know, Vincent, uh, he's, he's got charisma. He's got a hot girlfriend named Carmen,

played by Mario Elizabeth, Master Antonio. I don't know where she was in her career.

At this point, like, oh, it's her second movie. She's in Scarface. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So

Scarface is her first. She apparently is an extra in the King of Comedy, but I doubt like Marty

knew her from that. No, it must have been just from from Scarface. Uh, she's, I'm just going to say it,

uh, total smoke show. She is. She's so good in this movie. She's, she's an actress. I like a lot,

uh, generally, but I feel like, uh, she is attractive in this. She's activating things in me

watching this that I don't usually feel for my performances. She's fucking rules in the abyss.

Yeah. When she comes back, when he gives him the balabushka, uh, but then like, Newman's like,

drive him crazy, like go, go be, be really remote. And then she comes back in packing her pack of

cigarettes. I was just like, well, just take my life. Like fascinating because it's like, I was

going to say it's take my life. Um, it's fascinating because it feels like he's having a love at first

site moment with them, with just their dynamic witnessing the whole kind of operation of what's

happening, the energy around them, the potential. I think there's also like, I'm not, I'm not too hidden,

like, there's a longing for sexual vitality, uh, because he's talking omelets and these guys

are, are, are just like, she's, she's talking about like the loudness of his break, you know,

and he's watching him, you know, with the stick in his hands and dancing around the table and

doing his samurai sword stuff. But in your point, there's also like a relapse element, right? Like

watching tor, torro play. Bill years is, is safe for him. It's like drinking a non-alcoholic beer.

Right? It's sort of just like, you know what? This was such a structure of my life that I need a

version of this for the routine for the habit that isn't actually harmful to me and habit forming.

And then he witnesses like the uncut shit. It's, it's right there. And he's just like, oh,

fuck, I, I remember being that guy. What if I was her? What if I was managing someone like him?

Like every angle of it is so activating to him. Isn't it also, it's like because they're a

package. He's like, you guys are so well together. Right? Yeah. Cause you guys are so good together.

Which is part of what he misses is the symbiotic nature of it, you know, and the hustler, the

original film is so much about that dynamic, the sort of tragedy of him fucking up the partner he

had who he valued and felt safe with. And then getting fucked by the new flashier partner who

like destroys his life. And that pushed him away from all of it. Right. And it's like, yeah,

part of him, you know, having this long term stake in Tatarou is like, how extreme is that ever

going to get? Well, I say the the economics of it are also kind of interesting because inflation

aside, like they're they're passing 20s back and forth, right? Like I don't know. Yeah, he's like,

when they talk about going on the road, he's like, we could make five grand, you know, which is a

lot of money in 1986. But it's I don't know if it's down payment money. Yeah, that's not my one last

score. Yeah. So it's kind of like this is it's a grind like and it's just like you're trying to find

fun in the grind, but I don't also he seemingly has money. He's like seemingly well enough off.

Sure. He's carrying around wadds. Yeah. What's got like, like does he have like a bank account?

Yeah. He's got a shoe box. He's one one. Yeah, exactly. So what happens? I mean, they pretty

quickly go to he's like, I got to take that to dinner. He goes. Yeah. Right. There's the

whole dinner. And he does that whole like kind of scam basically. Yeah. Like, I'm going to take

this girl. She's going to reject him in 30 seconds. I walk out of here. It must like the hustler,

like this opening scene, the whole like Helen Shaver trying to sell the liquor, the

tutorial noticing them, starting to talk to master Antonio, like button holding her. All of that

is basically a sustained like 20 minute chunk of the movie, much like the hustler, where you're

just really staying in this space and the dynamics of all of it. There's also like, that's where you

start to get the rhythms and the intonations of the script. And I do love all of the lore about

them working price to the bone and sending him back and back and back to just tighten it and

tighten it. And price has talked about like, I, you know, you, I would write this stuff and I

would be like, this sounds incredible in my head. And then they would say like, it's too written,

it's too written. And so there is this like, feels like the classic novelist screenplay problem.

Yeah. But a lot of that opening sequence that you're talking about so much of it is just them

giving each other looks. So like when, when Vincent is like, let's just play play, let's just play

for play, because I think the money is getting in your head. And Newman just like looks up.

And he's like, what the fuck did he just say? But he doesn't say like, no one ever talks like that

in the pool hall. You know, it's just a look, but it tells you everything. And when Vincent is asking

that Carmen is like, Vincent, because she's like, we do this as a job. Like this is how we make money.

You can't be throwing away games against Julian here, because he's $20 rack. It's just like

such a perfect setup for that world. You can just know without knowing what you're dealing with.

It's also the classic movie star thing, you know, insecure actors in sort of leading positions. You

always hear more dialogue, more jokes, more awesome moments. And the guys and gals who are just

completely minted are like, take all this out. I can sell that in a look. I don't need this

paragraph to explain it. Give me the three line, the three word version of that line. Or let me

truly just do it in a glance. And like Newman knows that I wonder what the longest stretch of

uninterrupted speaking from Felsen is in this movie. It can't be, is there a monologue in this movie,

really? I mean, there's him in the car with cruise, but that's pretty short. I would say it's

after force, Whitaker. That's that's when it is right where he's been brought low. Right. But

yeah, I love that this movie doesn't translate at all to that point that you feel like the worst

version of this movie, even though it would have a kind of trashy joy to it, is one where Newman's

like, I'm going to teach you the ropes. And then he breaks down every single thing, even just the way

he starts saying at this dinner scene, which to your point is very sexually charged. The whole

thing feels like is he sexually coveting cruise? Is he trying to cut cruise? Is he trying to be the

third? He's also sort of like trying to show his sexual prowess through this scam of him pretending

he's picking up the woman like all that stuff. But that's Lorraine Broncos sister.

Hey, yeah. Bronco. Yeah. Huh? Who knew? And she's Vito's wife in the sopranos? I don't think I

knew that. I am realizing we're finally making good on our promise that we have to cover good

fellas on this podcast because this podcast has been so damaging to Lorraine Bronco, where we have

only covered her worst performance. Wait, apart from medicine man, what's the other one? Pinocchio?

Forgot about that. Chris, how recently have you watched Roberts and mechus's Pinocchio?

When was I actually have never seen? Because you did a rewatch once? You didn't want to help?

You mean you haven't seen it yet this hell, but I was listening to

um today. I was just doing two fearless. Yeah. And I just wanted to say to mechus wise, I

I will sometimes watch flight on a flight. That's absolutely. I'm like, because the action is

the gym. I'm like, do you like navigate to it on the Instagram? I have saved on my phone.

I was saying, they're like, we don't have that movie you maniac and they're like,

finally, let's crack the iPad open. You hold onto an iPod video just to have flight in your pocket

at all times. But I do it. I roll it. So I walk it upside down. You're right when he's rolling it.

No, she plays a seagull in the Zamekus Pinocchio that's an added character that is horrendous.

Yeah. It sounds like she is dying. She's a great actor. But it's her being like,

Pinocchio. The fuck is going on. I mean, there was all the money we had. Pinocchio.

And we've like, maybe there's a third one I'm forgetting, but she's probably, she's so

shrily and unpleasant in that and in medicine, man, both of which are just horrible miscastings in

Illbegotten films where we've had to be so rude to her. And we've said like, I think we

must do Marty at some point just to put some respect to the main brakos name. Yeah, I'm glad we'll

get to do. I don't know how many other movies we'll even ever like hit with her. She doesn't have

that. We do cost band Santa. We'll get even cowgirls get the blues. Yeah, that's that might be it. Like

I mean, we're not yeah, maybe we do Richard Donner radio fire. Oh, sure. Yeah, no, she didn't make

a ton of, oh, you know what? We'll do Penny Marshall. We will a penny for that one. She's like,

yeah, get pregnant. Like I didn't see that movie. Don't hide in cause with boys. Right on bicycles alone.

But it's like, isn't that good fellas broke her a little bit of like, you can scream your head off

that movie to make sense. Just put a revolver in your underwear. It's funny because she rarely ever

raises her voice in the soprano. It's like, at all. No, she's also quiet for long stretches of

good fellas. He uses that as a super power and she has good reason to scream in good fellas.

Yes. And also everyone's fucking screaming except for De Niro at the dinner scene. And I just

like even the sexual energy of him propositioning her for dinner and being like, what do you mean

you want to take us out? Like she clearly at first views it as this old man is hitting on me

and I don't know if I'm interested or not. But then doesn't understand what he wants out of the two

them together. And then he goes on to explain it where he's like, he's a thoroughbred like you make him

run, you make him feel good. I teach him a bright play because I think to her, she's like, if it's

about the pool, then why is he even bothering with me? Right. And if it's about me, then why is he

well? Because he has to construct this entire like she's getting bored of you working at Toys

or us or child world. Child world. Of course. I'm thinking of reviving child world. By the way,

what do you guys think? That's where the third jesus antenna movie happens.

Oh, no. It's just like you see something like this and you're like, what child wants to go in there?

It was like private equity before there was private equity. Like, can we just get a kid world or a

child world even? Could you imagine the fucking field day Fox News would have what child world?

Yeah. The conspiracy that just like yourself kept outside. Yeah. Yeah. I just the only other thing

on the dinner is shout out to whoever was the like the food food art person in this because it's

because it's like the chocolate mousse, the cup of coffee, the after the digest if it's all like a

raid there at the perfect level of like I had three bites of that. I had a sip of this. I had a

sip of that. Like it's the we've had a big long steakhouse dinner dessert and like Paul Nume and

50 pictures kid shit. Like he knows exactly how to eat on camera what to eat when to take the bites

for emphasis to the point of the movie not feeling the need to hold your hand or translate things.

The way he talks about like you're quite a character kid and Cruz is like, yeah, right? And he's

like, no, I mean, a negative way. You're a flake. But if it's hard to be a flake in this and that and

you're just like, great, I know enough. I don't need you to spell this out to me. I understand what

you're saying. I understand there's more to it. If I dug deeper to this lingo, but let's just

we're off to the races. This guy knows everything and they just want to be next to him. I'm not

kind of is like, you know, raw putty like he's going to get molded. But we're not going to watch him

do like training montages with that. There's one montage in the film. It's well deployed. Yes.

It's much later. Like yes. There is no point in he's like, and you know, you got to pop the balls

one to nine as we all remember or whatever. Okay. So they go to Atlantic City, right? The next

the next chunk is the Atlantic City, right? Well, it's leading up to. Yeah. Yeah. They do a whole

road. Yeah. They're on the road. They're ending up in Atlantic City. Right. But that's, um,

it's like, Hey, why don't we go on the road? Couple weeks. We're going to make a couple grand

and then we're going to go to Atlantic City and all the games outside of the tournament or where you

make all your money. Right. Well, get in my caddy. I get how much does he get like 60% of their

winnings or something? He's hanging them. I know. Lodging and food. Yeah. And by the way,

in the hustler, it's 75. That's George C Scott's deal with him. Right. I do think it's important

that he's offering a better deal than the one he was given. Yeah. They should have gotten George

C Scott back. They should. He's still alive at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because his last

or oh, no, I'm sorry. He was federally barred from entering any pool halls. The drunkest man in the

world. That's right. His last film was, uh, Angus, I think, which is like 96. Right. Yeah.

Heavens. Team US Marshall. I know. It's full of that. And the anger. He goes in. Right. Well,

no, it's just more like they're like George. He's got win in a bar. Filming has been delayed by eight

days. Like it's just, I mean, that was like the vibe back. Did George C Scott win best actor once or

twice just once. Okay. Just for Patton. Yeah. He was nominated for the hustler. Yes.

It's, I think it's part of why Gleason doesn't win is there's two hustlers supporting actor

companies. Yes. We were, because we were talking about this the other day. I was calling out

how crazy it is that Gleason also never won an Emmy. And your point was, well, the honeymoon

originally ran for one season. Right. I mean, like he was nominated twice before for, I did research

on this. I think Jackie Gleason show, which of course had like the Ralph Crampton sketches in it.

I think the originator. He's producing nominations, writing nominations, acting nominees.

Not for the honeymoon. He's ran for one year. And also there were, I always thought honeymooners

was like 500 episodes. That's what everyone thinks. Like it was like one of those, like I love

Lucy type shows. Yes. But yeah, at 30 episodes for one year or whatever. The other thing is he was

nominated, I think in 1952 for Best Comedian, which was just a category. It wasn't comedy special

Oscars. No, no, no. It was like best host and best comedian. And I think he lost to

Duranty maybe. I wouldn't put it past the Oscars. What about Best Comedian?

They said that. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of what the clothes. It's fried to do. Right.

You know, I'd like it to work. The thing I was going to say is just to tell Ben,

because I think you would appreciate this. First, she's got most ordinary man in the world

from the hustler. That's his first nomination. His first nomination is for Nandemy of a murder.

Oh, his second is for the hustler. Refuse is the nominee. This is the thing. There's a big note

on the Oscars for that year, which is George C Scott refused the nomination. He refused to accept

it as valid. George C Scott was very anti award show. He was just like it's acting shouldn't be

a competition. And this is ridiculous. Never showed up anytime they nominated him. He was like

fuck off. So he just publicly was like fuck that. Yeah, he wasn't like I'm not going to show up. He

was like I call bullshit on your whole. So he would, you reject the nomination and they would

then give it to like the next alternate. No, they just were like, well, you're nominated. He's like,

well, I refuse. They're like too bad. Go on a Wikipedia and IDB. It always has like parenthetical.

George, he's got didn't show up. Refuse the nomination. And then he wins for patent in 70.

And obviously does not show up. And then he was nominated once more for the hospital. That's,

I couldn't remember if he also won it for the hospital, but yeah, no, no, no, he may get,

he gave it to him the one type of patent where they're like, look, you're one of the greatest

actors ever. And you just were in this movie that's winning best picture. And you're so good in it.

And he was like, I refuse. Fuck, we're giving it to you anyway, George. How funny would it be if

he showed up for the hospital Oscars and was sitting there like really nervous with his

like extra. I really think I nailed it. He's fucking good. I regret not going in giving a speech.

So all right, call her money. Come on. So they think the first pool. He tries to take them to

his now just like a furniture. There's something to that. I've just showing that he's like an old man

now. You're an artifact. Yeah. Now when you watch it, tap room. That's what it's called.

Right. And then when you watch it, you're kind of like at what point do these people start playing

one another? Right. Like at what point is Mario Elizabeth Basterne? So it's Carmen starting to

think about how we get out. How are the wheels? Why are we giving him this percentage? And what

point is he like I'm using Vincent as a mechanism to like get myself back into this. What's the

long place? Exactly. But like I don't think that the pool hall that never opened, but that leads to

I believe the next place is the. He's playing the old man with the old man with the trake.

It's like kind of a shitty almost like VFW. And that's the fight where he's just like family.

Goddamn it. Yeah. It plays this pretends to be his dad. Yeah. Who's disappointed in it? Yeah.

When does he lecture Master Antonio? I feel like that's pretty early on when she's kind of like

sitting around Brawla. That is they've arrived already at Bill Cobb's house of the holy.

After Cruz has gotten the shit kicked out of him. Yeah. And he goes in and they this is the most kind of

like I think legible like pool hall where they walk in and they're like that's the best guy.

But that's the richest guy. And if you beat the best guy, the richest guy won't want to play you.

But if you fumble around for a while, the richest guy might get curious. And then we're working with

thousands of dollars. But Mozelle, you're just playing this guy for 20 bucks a throw. And it's

caught. I cops. Oh goodness. I know. He also just basically doing a paragraph of dialogue with a

look in this. Yes. I mean, that man could really sell a hundred years of life with a just like a

glance. He's the owner of the owner. It's he is fucking hand in the world. Yeah. And he's also the

magical janitor in Hudson, but he's in 8,000 things. But this is the senior referring to is when

Newman goes into the motel room and she's in her underwear and a flannel shirt tied around her

stomach. And he goes, keep the shirt nice touch. Yeah. And then he says, you know, where's the

ball of bush? Yeah. And she's like, well, you went out. And you let him. And he has to go

after the other the other thing with the scene, Ben, you know, a lot of the hustler, which I assume

you haven't seen the original. You probably like you would love. I just I ran and get time.

No, no, I'm just saying like you'd probably dig a lot of it's five. The movie is basically equally a

very tragic love story. It's got a very, very, very dark romantic hyper, hyperloreous sort of a

very broken woman. They're two kind of broken people who find each other in their dysfunction.

And the way he's talking to Mary Elizabeth, master Antonio in the scene where he's clearly

attracted to her, but he's also saying like, and would you dress like this if any man walked in

here and what if it was a guy like this? It's all kind of like fascinating, not overstated echoes of

him still struggling to process the tragedy of the original phone. Yes. There is a whole

situation in that movie of men and sexual violence. And you kind of this is the first time where

Cobb mentions that you get at least just a little bit of sense of the legacy of this guy.

And they they I think that's the first time where they refer to him by his nickname.

Yeah. And there's this is also the first time he plays pool in the movie is when he's playing

with Vincent just to just to hit the ball hits balls and to like draw a little bit of the crash

and yeah. Welcome.

The which I guess kind of brings us to where wolves.

And I wanted to ask you guys about this. I think I

I this is an idea that like I I'm obsessed with is the the flight of the Valkyries problem in a

movie when it peaks to or when you peak at 50 55 and when if if anything was better than this,

it would be like the greatest movie of all time. Yeah. I will save this. This film has an incredible

ending. Yes. It's literally like the last two minutes of this film. You're like hell yeah.

But yes, this is tough to talk this moment here. It's also interesting because I

fly the Valkyries problem is the fact right way to put it. Yes. There are movies where it's like I

love apocalypse now. I of course always stop watching about 65. It's not like all movies usually

great films peak at the ending. You go through history and you're like what's the best scenes

sometimes it's the opening sometimes it's the middle sometimes it's here or whatever. It is a

distinct thing of a movie hitting a level of transcendence where you're just like this is as good as

shit gets. I wouldn't rather be anywhere else in the world right now. I could watch this forever

and you feel them sort of like not fully successfully dismount off of that. The movie doesn't

comfortably transition you from that high into something that feels equally satisfying or even

if the movie storm into excellent. You're just like I am thinking about how much better I felt

20 minutes ago though. He has I'm sure you guys will talk about all of them throughout this series

a series of moments in his movies that remain transcendent despite the level of analysis. So you

can watch the coke Copicabana one or you can watch Wherewolves of London or you can watch like

all these different scenes and you can just be like I can watch this and think about every single

thing that has to happen for this shot to work or I can just listen to the music and watch the guys.

I can just five. Yeah and it never the magic never goes away even once you know what the trick is.

Good fellows is an interesting comparison point because it has like four of these and is the problem

that if you have multiple scenes at that level of transcendence it evens out. You have multiple

10 polls that are elevating us and bringing us down versus if there's just one kind of peak moment

at the middle that is so perfect. But I feel like I can watch the fucking shine box scene 8,000 times

never get tired of it. But when that scene ends and the movie continues if I'm watching Goodfellas

and full I'm not disappointed. I'm not like can we rewind back to shine. I was rewinding this.

I was literally just kind of like going like let me go back to the beginning of this one more time.

Just when he hits the line his hair is perfect and you realize that Tom Cruise is like it's not

just being played over the scene. He's in it like the song is being played in the room. There's also

early Robbie Robertson like Dubmaster stuff going on here where the Robbie stuff in the

score is excellent. It goes from first of all like they're playing well first of all in the script

it's James Brown. So that's it's supposed to be James Brown. Yeah. I was wondering is the perfect

choice. I know it feels like that's the difference between Scorsese and Richard Price which

are present like he's listening to fucking James Brown and they're not Scorsese like what have we

did. But the Brown song would it be like the big payback. No it's faster. I can't remember what it is.

I have the script on the laptop. I'll look for it but the it's like diogenics so it's like playing

through a PA system at the pool hall and they're playing Clapton and then when they cut to were

wolves it's Paul Newman driving down to the pool hall to meet them and in the opposite lanes or

whatever whatever sound design choice they made the car horns are in time to the beat of the song

and you're like who thinks of this. That's the like with the fucking song. Yes. I'm a huge

foreign Zebang guy. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the track before. Are you

a you guys pro or I think it's that one album. Pro this that I really like the second album the

self titled yes. Yeah. That is the greatest rock album like the seven he's just such a

unusual guy. There is nobody. There's this career so weird.

We're excitable boy is the album you're talking about right. Excitable voice is third album which has

werewolves of London on it which is a good album. His second album Warren Zebon is the greatest

rock album of the seventies. It is the best. The one that begins with Frank and Jesse James

and to Desperado some of the eaves. It's basically like hanging out all night in an L.A. bar.

The last song it's four in the morning and you're like we should all kill ourselves. It'll be so great.

What are they? His first album then. His first album is called one at Dead or Alive. Okay. And it's

like you know it's got some stuff but like Warren Zebon he never topped it like the second album.

Like he made music for another 50 years. Well yeah. I kind of became the werewolves of London guy.

At that last album when he the wind which is really good and his and his

lettering the kind of like Captain. Yeah. Enjoy every sandwich stuff and all that which like I

you know that was all very profound. I'm not like shitting on it. Have you guys ever heard

or seen Adam Sandler doing werewolves of London? No. So they you know what I can imagine it

he's going awww but he like crushes it. There's that thing with Sandler where he's an incredible

singer. Yeah. But it feels like he's almost embarrassed by how beautiful a voice he has. So even when

especially when does his comedy music he kind of like does a comedy voice on top of it.

And and other things where he's sung but then there were like the scenes and wedding singer where

people are like this is dubbed right. He's not this good of a crooner and all of it's real when

Zebon died they did a tribute album called Enjoy Every Sandwich which was his quote from his final

letterman interview and Sandler did werewolves of London as a recording but also performed it live

on letterman and it's incredible. I think you're sort of like oh what he's having fun I can imagine

a typical doing like werewolves of London but he just sings the shit out of it. It's also my

highly recommended the song is awesome. I also love that cocktail is the beginning of and I guess

it starts in Top Gun but it's only after the success of Top Gun that Cruz identifies this.

In Top Gun it feels more reflective of the Brookheimer Simpson worldview and then Cruz takes it

with him until the couch jump roughly early 2000s let's say late 90s. Tom Cruz movies are

primarily about a guy who is the fucking best at something either he's always been the best or

he's immediately coming to be a guy that comes the best so quickly and people doubt him they're like

hey hot shot too fast too much you're feeling yourself like take it down a peg and he's like

fuck you. I'm the only one who can save us. I'm better than you think I am and I'm going to prove

you wrong. There's like a distinct lack of learning in a kind of like peak Tom Cruz movie star

movie and part of what's so electrifying of the werewolves of London scene is you're like

this guy is going to crash you're watching a guy who's just like feeling self way too hard when he

starts doing the fucking karate moves you know him singing along as you said that he's like

making the lyrics about himself in a way and you're watching Newman watch him and be like this guy

doesn't understand how much suffering he has ahead of him in his life. He also but like he's so bad at

it's the flake thing. It's like he's so bad at throwing or at like sandbagging so that they can

entice this guy because he's beating Mozel one handed. He's like I'm I'm just fucking dancing

around the table and Mozel sits down like he's like I know I'm not going to hit again you know like

and like that's where he chooses him out of like you're losing us money right like you're

yeah if you if you're this good no one wants to play or no one wants to you're losing you're

making money on this game you're losing money on the next five games. Everyone else who's

standing around watching you is never gonna fucking get off the way it's the it's the it's the

incredible like paternal figure thing where he'll he yells at him and then he's like Vincent

getting the car you're like a high school girl got felt up at a drive in you know like

Ben the hustler is like very existential and the main thing in the movie is this guy is really good

even the elder statesmen are kind of acknowledging like like and like a year he might be the best

in the world but there's this early scene where George C Scott calls him a loser after he's like

one and it's just sort of like fundamentally you're a loser like you have the mentality of a loser

and what he's calling out is a certain vulnerability of this guy so badly needing to be seen as the

best and that desperation even though he doesn't do this kind of peacocking even though he is good at

like throwing people off there's he wants it a lot too badly that's what undoes him when the

first winner character and color of money beats him is he's like basically like I've uncovered

the old wound of where you're just like you're you're you're a dupe because without fully spoiling it

where the hustler ends is he experiences this like tremendous tragedy and at the end he shows up

and he's like I'm a winner you're a loser basically because I've lost everything and I'm hollowed

out now inside like I don't feel the stakes of losing I have nothing left to lose which makes me

invincible and you see the Jackie Gleason character who is the best in the world look at him and be like

fuck this guy's dangerous now you know he doesn't even try to step up to him and so there is this

whole feeling of Newman lashing out at him being like this guy doesn't understand that like

eventually something in his life will humble him that he is going to be hollowed out

and he is peacocking so much more than I did at my peak that like this fall is going to be fucking brutal

and it's it's yes the the force wittaker thing is it hits him so hard because he

Newman thinks he is decades past being able to care that much right it's not just that he got

hustled it's it's how it hurts well he gets hustled at the thing that he says he's the expert

right because he gets he says like pool excellence it's not about excellent pool it's about being a

student of human moves and he just misses the forest wittaker's plan you know he thinks he's just

he's got another guy that he's going to take 40 bucks off of or eight bucks off

can't see the first on the trees I mean it's kind of vital because he literally can't see the

forest through the true love that is so true and but like it is kind of vital in a way to me because

I am like how does this economy work like how can there be this many people who you can hustle enough

to continue eating food but for sure and it's like you know what fucking sometimes this shit happens

even to supposedly like wise guy force wittaker also has an entirely different style yeah totally

yet that he he would be duped by him because he's not like I used to be it like I was working at a

medical school like participating in lab experiments like he seems like a complete break yeah he's

got a totally different backstory he's got a totally different demeanor and part of it is that

forest wittaker is such a unique performer uh you're like I mean is there anyone like for us

want to go before I ask him like hey can I ask you something do you think I should lose some weight

it's like you're asking for him in that but yes yes but it's right and like even in that moment

you're like is this still some part of like some fucking mind game or is this just him spiting him

to be like on top of it I'm still going to pretend like I'm just sort of an idiot savant

uh or is it like a genuine moment of vulnerability being like hey now that I beaten you

and I maybe have your respect can you tell me do you think losing weight would help my hustle like

there's there's a read on it like that but he's yeah kind of like it's the jersey swap moment

after birds where he's like you know yeah like can I hey like I know you're an expert or you're

an old hand force wittaker is just kind of like like a universal monster where you're like this guy

who is so intimidating and scary and sad simultaneously just always feels so tragic and so vulnerable

and is a guy who feels like he's being explosive and loud even when he's like literally whispering

is this platoon year 86 so he does he's in platoon before this his only credits are

uh fast times something called tag the assassination in the Nick Castle movie which I think he has a

tiny part and uh vision quest the Matthew Mo Dean movie he's got a tiny part that we talked about

this in the fast times episode though he gets a couple parts early on and he's like I don't know

enough about acting and basically pulls himself out of TV and auditioning and is like I need to study

more seriously right and 86 is his reemergence here of like I think I I can be at the table

with Martin Scorsese and all of her stuff that I can hold my own against Paul Newman yeah this is

this is the moment that like really kind of defines the rest of his career right the fact that he's

able to fucking nail this scene yeah because the next year he's got good morning Vietnam which

it's like a pretty big role like that's pretty much yeah and then the year after that is bird

which is just I mean it's one of my favorite when these movies it's probably my favorite faris

vertical reform and it's like and it's like did that make him a star no because like faris

whittaker like you say is so specific but it made him an enduring Hollywood figure he's like a

geometry yeah where you're like this guy has a number of excellent vehicles under his belt and

and force but a gravity one up leading act acting Oscar even though that's kind of supporting

performance it kind of yeah but you know whatever but you're like he's primarily a character actor

who a couple times the right project has met him exactly where he's at and it's the kind of movie

that could only be led by he's also like ghost dog like it's just like no one could have been

fucking ghost dog like like ghost dog bird last king of Scotland the Butler right you're like he

has like a collection of movie star movies and then but then it's also like is there a hostage

situation in a movie guess what tired cock is picking up the phone right now he's the guy who's

being held hostage place or either please please my very effective psychic cop in species

the fucking weirdest movie ever where he walks into rooms he's like someone was hurt here and

there's like 14 gallons of blood on the floor we should do species on patreon only

so that we can hear bends sort of if I were in this movie it end with me owning an island yeah

if I really do not make any mistake I'd have a bunch of good sex and still be alive