‘East of Eden’ E1-4, ‘Slow Horses’ S6E4, and ‘The Altruists’ Trailer

I need support to have to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now!

Hello and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at theWinger.com and joining me in the studio, he now knows 100% more about

brothels.

It's Andy Greenwald.

It's not the brothel itself because I think I wasn't wrong.

About the basic ins and outs of a brothel.

Like in terms of their pickling and canning.

You know just the financial planning required, dude.

Sure.

We're talking about East of Eden today.

First four episodes of Zoey Kazan's adaptation, John Steinbeck's American classic.

And then we're also going to talk some slow horses.

It's so great to see you in the flesh.

You thought you got rid of me?

Apparently your new favorite beverage or your old favorite beverage that you never

alerted me to.

This is a thing that happens with people who have been...

We're in person now.

We can talk.

Friends for a long time is that sometimes old friends try and pull a fast one.

And nobody's comfortable with just being like, there's a new drink I've been trying and

I really like it.

Everything's always got to be like, I've always known about this.

No.

This has always been the best thing.

You just don't know me enough.

And I've never seen you get...

You've never heard of this.

What is it?

This isn't the Pepsi challenge.

So about a year ago, I started enjoying a beverage that was new to me.

I'm not columbishing this.

I'm sure that the Italians and the snobs, possibly redundant, have always been aware that

the combination of espresso and tonic water is delightful and refreshing.

Yes.

It has now become more available in coffee shops.

You can easily coffee shop.

Right?

It's like you do espresso.

No, you get espresso.

That's usually soda water.

Next to it.

Gotcha.

Because, you know, I'm on East Coast time and have been zooming since before the sun came

up.

I was like, I'm gonna treat myself this morning to our local barista specialty and I walked

in there and they have an espresso tonic on the menu and I got one.

Now, I feel...

Uh-huh.

This is good.

You know, this is...

I'm gonna close my computer early.

This is good.

I'm gonna close my computer.

I'm gonna close my computer down.

You think you're close, you're guys.

I'm gonna...

Oh, wait.

Okay, go ahead.

Here, why don't you take mine?

You take mine.

What's the difference?

Same 16 tabs open to NBC Sports, Philadelphia.

Chris, that's how it works.

My point is, I generally operate from perspective of, I'm too available to you and I tell you

too much.

So in between the 18...

That's true.

It is true.

Yeah, you do tell me a lot.

Which color is more dominant in our chat window?

Whichever one is mine.

You know what I mean?

Like you say, oh, that's interesting.

What do you think about that?

I mean, text later, that usually end with IDK anyway.

And then you're just coming out of a screening and you and Sean are like, you're like, Sean,

sorry, let me tap out of the steak dinner for a second and look at this.

So at no point in the last year was I like, Chris might not know.

My coffee order has changed in the daytime.

I just, I feel like I've seen you drink a lot of coffee.

I've never seen you drink that.

The other reason is because our wonderful benefactors here at the International

Spotify Corporation provide us with some free coffee beverages.

And so, you know, eagle eye viewers of the pot have seen me have a nice coffee from them

that I don't drink.

Right.

Today's different.

You're not going to drink that.

I'm going to drink this and it's going to affect the content of the show.

I have so many things I want to ask you about today.

How many are coffee based?

No, there's a couple of new things from the world of popular culture.

Okay.

Let's talk to you about watching your life pass before your eyes through the careers

of offensive linemen.

But that might be after dark.

And that's not about the man hunter.

He sure?

He sure.

Yeah.

Let's start here.

Okay.

Which is I was curious whether or not any of the paramount stuff from the last couple of

days, the Skydance stuff, I should say.

Right.

Because it is a Skydance Corporation that encompasses now two great legacy studios.

It does.

If any of it was like jumping out at you of like the massive amounts of debt that they

have to service.

So it's barely fact that Larry Ellison is selling his North Palm Beach estate for $160

million.

It's peanuts.

Yeah.

So am I right about my numbers here that this is a newly formed company built on the

back of $80 billion of debt?

I let's not get too deep into the numbers because we're going to get them wrong.

It is a tremendous amount of debt servicing that they have to do.

And like they essentially have promised $6 billion in, I guess, savings in terms of redundancies.

I think but the way that they're kind of approaching it is like efficiencies.

So so they're going to, you know, whether that's the tech stack that they're talking about,

ways in which they're going to maximize the real estate holdings of the two companies.

The thing that jumped out at me was, you know, when Casey Blois had given his statement or

made a statement after Cindy Holland or right before Cindy Holland left.

Well, I sure believe in him.

When it's clear he was going to be taking over the direct.

He kind of pointed us in the direction of imagine these two services being bundled, not

merging.

And then in his town hall or his address to the troops, David Ellison suggested that

there will be a mega, mega streaming service on the horizon that will bring together the

two, the two great families of, of all those Warner brothers and all those, all those

Allison siblings, all those guys up on the mountain of Paramount.

So yeah, right.

Right.

In the near or distant future, we'll see some sort of HBO Paramount or Skydance Plus.

I guess is what they could call it.

Right.

And then you get all of it.

Yeah.

For like $60 a month.

I don't know.

I mean, I, what's the, what's a number for that?

I know financial analyst, but when I assume most stories of companies being bought on the

back of debt and then promising it's all going to work out because of efficiency, that usually

works, right?

Like a story that everybody has been talking about how like this just doesn't have.

Now if anybody knows how to survive it.

And if any company has navigated it's it's HBO.

Well, right.

Yeah.

So I am some of those Warner brothers properties.

So it's just been like between time Warner and everybody else who's bought them over the

years.

I mean, and the, and the inverse of that is if there's ever been a major media corporation

that has mismanaged its brands and assets, it was the artist formerly known as Viacom,

which let MTV and Comedy Central among others just with or and die into nothingness.

Now that's pre-elison, but that is the legacy of what I saw a graphic being like,

now all of these brands are combined into one friendly family.

And I was like, some of these are just ghost kitchens, man.

Like they don't even exist anymore.

Yeah.

But, um, in terms of like what I'm looking at next are pearl clutching about the fate

of our beautiful HBO.

I'm not worried about anymore.

Casey has solidified his position.

HBO has survived.

Worse, it could it may survive even worse.

I don't know, but that is not a this year next year, three years from now worry.

I think the bigger worry is job losses, and which is going to be devastating, I think,

in this town and that does have like downstream effects.

But I'm not entirely sure how they get to 30 theatrical releases a year if they start

axing people by the thousands.

I don't really see how that works out either, but I would say the most interesting thing

to emerge this week to me was that the first thing that they did when they took over mid

week, I mean, this is only still like 48 hours old in terms of being official.

The first thing they did was they just dragged diggers corpse out and just kicked it a

few more times.

That the very first thing that like came out from the new Skydance regime was, you know,

actually, this is the biggest bomb in history.

And they were cooking the books.

I thought that was an interesting story to leak out.

So what Andy's referring to is a story that like kind of has gone around on Hollywood

sites where the Paramount or the Skydance folks looked at the ledger.

Well, as soon as they got it, the ledger came into their hands like the dark hole.

That doctor's somehow digger has lost them $250 million.

Well, that look, there's always funny math, right?

Right.

But that Warner Brothers was saying, no, no, this movie, you know, production was only

X amount and we only spent Y amount on marketing.

So we are losing money, but it's manageable.

It was worth the risk.

And Paramount came in and said, actually, they spent $200 million just to make the thing.

And then another hundred, do you market it?

And so we'll lose exponentially more.

And you know, it's just, I guess that's how these things work.

Like all studios do this.

All studios blatantly lie about how much they're spending or how much they're losing.

They all cook their books to relatively acceptable degrees.

I guess it's probably also, you know, it is the multi hundred million dollar equivalent

of a classic Brian Curtis.

Now they tell us notebook dump where like the first thing the new regime comes in and

says, man, the old guys really were bad at this, but we're going to be better.

But it's yeah, that seemed like a kicking Mike Deluca and Pam Abdy on the way out.

I will say saw digger.

Yeah, like to quit a bit.

Whoa.

That's not a Zag.

I mean, I don't think any, I think you can, uh, there's, you can say maybe like the overall

message of digger is this or you can say like you enjoyed or didn't enjoy aspects of it.

But I certainly was like blown away by the scope and vision of its production.

How will and cruise is incredible?

How would I do as a cat dad?

I think you'd be fine.

Okay.

Thank you.

So, you know, you know, you're a primary interest rather than the climate disaster facing

our world.

I drive an electric car.

So that part is settled.

That settled business for me.

Can I just ask one other question about it?

This is a little bit pulling from your third chair on the big picture standing, which

I respect.

It was very interesting for that digger, for that Skydance.

First thing they do is shit on the old guys like, uh, digger story that they were kind

of two thought trains leaving the station from that.

And was basically one was like, man, like this is, that's a ridiculous amount of money

to spend on something.

And Diluka and Abdi were really over their skis in terms of empowering filmmakers who

are not going to be, you know, financially responsible.

The other side of it was this morning of, well, now no one is ever going to trust a filmmaker

to do something original in the theatrical space again.

And my main takeaway is, it just sucks that everything is now, every argument is now reduced

to one sample, one example.

You know, this was, this was a, that's a phrase, that's a way we talked about.

What was it?

Just like, like two or three weeks ago when I was just, I felt like there was something

that we were talking about the TV show that we had mixed feelings about, but it had become

an example or a type of TV that we want to still be made.

Maybe this is just something we always do.

But I'm blanking on specifically what I was saying.

It's part of our severance comments too when we talk about severance.

I feel somewhat severed right now because I'm like, did I say that?

No, I feel like we, I mean, I often say that, but like, like, you're like, I'll die supporting

it's right to be this show.

Yeah, and I wish it wasn't all on this, to say like, so anyway, I didn't know how you saw

that as a, as a film commentator.

Yeah, I mean, I feel complicated about this because, you know, it's easy to look at like

the sea suite and be like, why does David Zazlov get an $800 million parachute going

out of this possibly catastrophic merger?

You know, why do people need like this kind of extravagance in their like just to basically

green light something, you know?

But I do think that there's always been a relationship between fiscal responsibility and

being able to take artistic leaps.

If Digger had been made for $60 million and I don't know what that version of Digger would

have looked like or how, what cast it would have had, or if it could even have gotten

a sit down with Tom Cruise, but like, it is the kind of movie that probably should be

a little bit more financially responsible in its relationship to what kind of money it's

going to bring in, you know?

And I think that, I think we're going to continue to see stories like this as these costs

kind of are bloated and there's like the interest rates are higher.

I think if you want to shoot stuff here, it's expensive.

But I think somewhere, somewhere like outside of like firing more grips or firing more

marketing people, there needs to be some sort of evaluation about why this stuff costs

what it does.

But I also don't know the in like the details of the economics of filmmaking enough to

like make a definitive statement about that.

I just don't know.

It looks incredible, but that's like more than they, like that's more than a Lord of the

Rings movie.

You know what I mean?

Well, right.

I mean, I think this is just, it's the nature of how any shot in Pinewood for nine months

or whatever they did.

Like I understand why.

But this is a reflection of our economic reality.

It's either it's literally all or nothing.

It's either it's back rooms in obsession or it's Digger.

And I mean, if you look at the other list, the other thing in the stories about how much money

it lost, of course, there was a rush to be like, well, there was John Carter from Mars.

There was, you know, other famous bombs.

The marvels was up there as one of the greatest money losers of all time, which they kept

making Marvel movies.

They did, but they will never make one with three women as the lead again.

So I guess that's a win for some demographic.

That should be our horizon for how long we pod for.

Until Marvel once again, based of a three woman Marvel movie.

Not a two.

I like the watchers on the wall.

Our work here is done when Marvel finally makes good on the promise of that one 102 year

old Kevin Feige finally says we can do it.

That one shot in end game when would have El Troz revealed inside of an Iron Man costume

and looks at Shurie and nods.

Like when they finally cashed that check that they wrote and that scene.

Yeah.

I heard of someone on the streets of New York, right?

It's kind of like a walkable city.

I heard some people talking and they were like, I didn't know there was a new, there's

a new Avengers movie out.

And it's like really, like, it's like a really big deal.

Like, it's made a lot of money.

And I couldn't tell if they were time travelers or like beautiful people who only read the New

York review of books.

Are they talking about they were talking about the end game really?

Yeah.

But they were actively engaged with this idea that there was a new Avengers movie out

that seemed to be pretty significant and they were intrigued by it.

And it was completely guileless.

And so I can't decide if they were at what side of the cultural spectrum were they on?

Were they children or were they like, you saw them.

Or was it like, I didn't see that.

I heard them talking while I was ordering a coffee and I didn't like turn around and

be like, so I didn't want to assume they were children.

If you were ordering a coffee and they were talking about I heard there's a new Avengers.

That's not how children talk.

I realize now I've also made an error in my story.

I was ordering an espresso tonic because I enjoy that during the day.

And I was so focused on keeping it from you that I didn't turn it around.

But I feel like was it like, if I turned around, I guess it could have been people who are

new to culture or could have been Wala Sean and Elaine.

It would have been the funniest is if it had been Paul Bettany in Jennifer Connolly.

He's like, I heard that.

I hear there's a new vision series on.

That's not too far back.

That's coming out soon.

Yeah, you excited?

Yeah, I'll check it out.

You know that like, we have a couple of shows coming out soon that I'm excited about.

Vision.

I'm going to go down and go down.

Yeah, I was going to go down next week.

So we'll do that next Thursday.

Do you feel personally triggered the fact that like the advertising for Vision Quest,

one of the like the few posters that are ever one of them is James Spader with a giant

like conversation.

No, we did.

Okay.

But in you were like, Oh, James Spader isn't a robot in this.

And I was like, no, it's just James Spader and like, and now they are advertising it.

They're like, is that David Letterman or Michael Steip?

No, blacklist crowd getting in there.

What was his name?

Reddington.

He didn't have facial hair like that.

No.

No, blacklist.

I wanted to ask you about the trailer for a new Netflix series called The Outrists, The

Outrists.

Stars Anthony Boyle, who we loved and say nothing and it was in Masters of the Air.

And of course, Julia Garner, who is, you know, the other day I was on Bill's pod and we

were talking about cable TV, all the fan actors and Reese and Danes and all these people.

I think Julia Garner is in the mix there.

The Americans.

And this is about Sam Bankman, Fried and the fall, the rise and fall of FTX.

And it comes via like almost at this point, like an old school way of thinking about TV

production where it's adapted from.

I believe New York Magazine piece.

I think it's there.

They are producers on it.

And then New York Magazine producers and then the Obamas and Higher Ground are producers

on it as well.

Graham Moore, who did the imitation game, the Alan Turing movie.

Yeah.

This was interesting.

I mean, go on.

You can keep saying.

Well, I mean, we can talk about the pedigree of it.

The series, I'll check it out.

I mean, I'm always interested to watch performers like Boyle and Garner act.

I don't really understand how crypto works.

And maybe that is actually a benefit to watching something like this.

But I was curious how you were feeling because fantasy today wrote in his projections news

letter about this wave of movies we're about to get artificial, social reckoning, Alex

Gibney's Elon Musk documentary, the Nathan Fielder movie with Elizabeth Holmes.

You can see everything.

And obviously on TV, we've got the altruists and we've gotten another, you know, the

Mendes Cypher played Elizabeth Holmes a couple of years ago.

But I was curious whether or not this collection of films and this TV show specifically peaked

your interest.

Like is this a world you want to investigate through this?

I find some of these films to be a little bit more appealing than the TV show only because

I'm curious about viewing these subjects through the lens of a specific filmmaker or artist.

Yeah.

I want to see a point of view about this.

Well said.

I totally agree with you about that.

But I'm curious whether or not like you think it signals anything.

Do you think it?

I think they think it's a tough, I think they're generally a tough sell.

I mean, there was that run of, well, there was a game stop movie that Paul Dano is in.

But in TV, there's also been like we crashed.

I think I'm thinking a lot about our friend Sean talked to Mark Marin for a criterion channel.

And through my enormous jealousy, I also really enjoyed it.

And because I also would love to chance to sit down with Sean and he's hard to reach.

Nicely played.

Did you see how I did that?

Yeah.

But Marin very succinctly said something that has been living in my head ever since because

Sean asked a question generally about like comedy and satire and he was like, well,

it's hard to be farcical when you're living in a farce.

And so I think that there is an element of why it is about.

Is it expensive?

Is it?

It's expensive.

So we don't like that.

No, I like it.

All right.

No, I'm just saying like, your mileage may vary on having your nose pushed into an aspect

of the world that we have to deal with in live with every day.

This one does stand out to me for a couple of reasons.

One of which is as you, I'm with you, I don't understand any of this.

And it's not, this is not a story that I was particularly paying attention to.

So I'm interested in it.

I also think that good storytelling and good acting draws my interest more than the subject

matter usually.

Yeah.

And Anthony Boyle is an awesome young actor and is doing something completely different

from what he has done in other recent things, including the House of Guinness show, right?

Yeah, that's right.

And Alex Lawther, who we love from from Andorra and from you were, you were being,

being up that Howard's end the other day.

He was in that as well.

I was staying up that Howard's end.

And from Alien, Earth, Alien Earth, Earth, and Julia Garner's awesome.

So I found, I thought this was pretty exciting.

I also really am appreciative of the fact that like the calendar turns to October and a young

podcasters' mind starts turning to like a top 10 list.

And then these incredibly rich streaming services are like, no, no, no, we're not done

yet.

And things that I hadn't even registered are starting to come out and be released.

Yeah.

I would still say we have like five things left.

But there's always a, like I did not know about this much.

Yes, I know there's always a sneaky like, oh, yeah, I didn't know that was coming out.

But I would say that this is, yeah, we're near in the end here.

We're near in the end.

And I would say that the TV schedule in general is just way, way, way, way, way to tilt towards

the Emmys for my tastes.

Fair.

And I don't, I think you can make it when we have discussed like binge model versus the

binge release model versus weekly release until the cows come home.

I, I think that there needs to be some sort of like executive order about like how many

new shows go up at any given point.

And what, what sense there is in putting up three or four new shows at once.

And then they're being like a three week.

So you know, you want, it's like what Trump said about the border.

We need to shut the whole thing down until we figure out what's going on.

Is that what he said?

I think that's the last thing he said on the subject.

Yeah.

Last time I read a newspaper anyway, 2017.

Would you, would you vote?

So all these movies must be of great surprise to you.

Which I'm just fascinated.

Would it be a swing voter issue for you?

Like would you swing a vote if someone was like I will appoint a TV streamings are to

regulate it?

It depends on who it is, you know?

I, okay.

I was thinking, I was just thinking about you posting like like Debra Messing recently

posted like an, what is Debra Messing post?

Are you aware?

I mean, eight, eight screen thing explaining why how she's come to believe that her vote

for the governor of New York cannot in good conscience go to Kathy Huckle.

And she's going to go to like, she's a New Yorker.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She, I believe she said she was going to leave the city when our most recent mayor was elected.

But anyway, I feel like you should do that and be like apropos of nothing.

I just feel like fairness demands Debra Messing in Nashville.

I would watch that.

If she did like a like learning to love the South, you know?

I thought you meant in Nashville like the film.

Yeah.

No, I don't think I would watch Debra Messing in a remake of Robert Almond's Nashville.

Sam Almond Lee and I inserted into Nashville.

Sam Almond's Nashville in which he puts other people in to the movie.

Yes.

And they all are just talking to chat GPT and he's like, don't you want this?

Don't you want this fascinating culture?

Anyway, this seems cool.

I'm interested also when you said, Graham Moore, who's the film, he's the screenwriter

who made imitation game.

He also did the, he wanted Academy Award for it.

Do you do the jackal too?

Did he do the jackal too?

No.

Okay.

It's just like, oh, now he's making a TV show and it looks really accomplished and has

a big cast and has one of my favorite producers, the Obama's behind it.

I know.

That's why I brought it up in the first place.

I love them as content producers.

I wanted to ask you before we do our two shows today.

Yeah.

Can we talk a little bit about the lantern rumor?

Not a rumor, but yes.

Can you set this up for me?

Sure.

Because I think you were for the first time in maybe since 2017, you were across something

news wise that I was like, I haven't heard about this.

I'm all across Deborah messing social media.

And that is not an endorsement to be clear.

I just like to know where all the cast members are willing, grace and dad.

It's like a digest of her posts on Facebook news.

No, no, I said alerts across blue sky, cross threads, all of them.

So I brought this to Chris's attention.

I actually like two roads diverged in a yellow, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in the woods

here where I was like, should I tell Chris about my coffee order?

Or should I tell Chris about the news that is roiling the DC fandom?

Yeah.

Which is that, and we source this by texting Justin to see where he had said it.

So Justin Brick Gibson, my friend at CoEP on the show,

and Vanessa Baden Kelly, who is also a, a writer on the show,

yes, producer, went on the midnight boys and, and they all had a great talk.

Like, pew, pew.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Um, it was really, it was a really cool conversation.

It was an awesome conversation, um, where the midnight boys like, didn't back down,

which I thought was really cool to see them like say, like, this is what we thought.

And here's how it played out in Vanessa and Justin were really honest about their experience.

They had a whole people accountable.

I said, can we do a second podcast about this new chapter in Vance career?

We do a podcast about Vance podcast.

Can Vann come on?

No.

No.

Absolutely.

He's on enough parts.

He's busy.

Yeah.

We could just do.

We've already hold in Vann has Vann ever turned to Cameron said Chris Ryan is on enough

parts.

He probably has, obviously.

Yeah.

No, I, I, I've been enjoying Vance for this great political over the last two weeks.

Incredible.

Uh, they, they, in, in the course of this podcast, they said that in the initial break

of the season of lanterns, what ended up as episode five, which was called lights out,

which was a quote unquote, the big one, the battle of Rushville.

Yes.

Was slotted to be the seventh episode of the season and that the switch where it became

the fifth episode was done in post.

Now this doesn't mean to be clear that you could just lift out lights out as it stands

and drop it in seven and seven becomes, are they all dropped down?

Like everything else was then edited towards this direction or scenes were, were, were,

were cut differently to help the change.

But I guess it did inspire a pretty big debate where some of the people who are like hashtag

not my lantern were like, Oh, that would have been so much better because of the placement

of the battle or maybe because then the mystery of Noah would have remained a mystery

because I do think one of the, I think that was more significant character as well.

Yeah.

And it changes the nature of mysteries, I guess, and how they play into the show.

Well, it adds another one because I think, yeah, those, yes, because then you see,

from the later in the season is happening earlier.

And so you're following the 2026.

Yeah.

And they're like, ever since this happened.

Yeah.

And how into jail for 10 years.

And we've been rebuilding.

What happened?

We're like, what the fuck happened?

And then you see and you're like, Oh, I can see why that guy went to jail for 10 years.

Do you think then the blackmail plot makes more sense?

Like what?

And also generally, do you think this was the right choice, the wrong choice?

I think I'm agnostic, but I'm curious if you had strong feelings.

I think it worked otherwise.

I think that the way that they did it probably, I know that some of the, the pushback about

green lantern, about lanterns is that there isn't enough green lantern.

And that there's not enough ring stuff and there's not enough flying in space and

that there's not enough suits.

But I actually thought that the last couple of episodes had way more to say about what

it means to be a lantern.

Yes.

And, right.

And, you know, and heroism and brought guy into it and talked about, you know, like panic

rooms and the basement ever since, you know, and all this stuff.

And so I think it was weirdly more in service of the DCU than Rushville was.

I mean, I mean, certainly a version of the DCU that is thoughtful and considered with

moral stakes and scaffolding, which I think were more interested in.

Yeah.

I think that, I think it works as it is, but I, I personally probably would have been

a little bit frustrated if you had two episodes of people talking about something that they

wouldn't just explicitly talk about.

And I think that that is a little bit of a hang up that I have with these shows that

other shows that do multiple timeline storytelling is that in any kind of reality, people would

be far more explicit and far more forthcoming about like, I can't believe that, you know,

the thing that changed everything for me was when Hal and Zoe played one on one on our

souls, you know, that was fucked up.

And I'll never forgive them and I'll never forgive this person or whatever.

And you wouldn't just be like, you can't tell me that what happened to me in Rushville

didn't matter, you know?

I also can't, I can't separate any of this conversation from how fascinating I find the

decision making.

Like, how and when to deploy information is one of the most frustrating aspects of all

writers rooms, not just shows that are intentionally twisty.

And the sense that I got from hearing Justin and Vanessa talk about it was that they,

I mean, first of all, rooms argue and disagree, but then almost inevitably, it's not phone,

it's like they phone love with the possibilities of what they choose to do.

And so I think for them, delaying Rushville was a key, I don't want to say keys, I do

not want to create the idea that they disagree with what happened because that's not their

job and that's not what they said.

But that the decision was such a good one from their perspective in terms of challenging

the audience's perceptions and not handholding and really laying down a marker that this

is how we're going to deal with time and story in this show.

I would say that without having been involved in those conversations and coming to a blind,

I was struck by the boldness of what they ended up with.

I mean, there aren't that many moves left to surprise people in terms of how to tell

time stories, time shifting stories on TV.

Getting to the finale with three episodes still to go felt pretty radical to me and kind

of exciting.

Yeah.

Now, that doesn't mean that it didn't create problems later on that I still don't think

they were able to solve for.

One of which, which is the lack of surprise in the Noah reveal, a more fundamental, the

sort of detached nature of the reparations blackmail thing.

The biggest one to me though is unrelated to the time shifting stuff, which is only, I

wouldn't say it's like nod at me, but it hasn't really resolved itself into that vibe of

like, but I liked it, which is I don't get what man hunters are.

Like I think that is a fundamental problem with the show that didn't affect my enjoyment

of all the things that you're important to be a McGuffin.

Yeah.

You know, right?

Like, they're too important to just be like, oh, don't worry about it.

It's like the gauntlet and if you get all the jewels, something big happens.

It's like their nature of like, we were robot assassins created by the guardians and when

we went rogue, they they asked us out is like, it's too significant of a story to not

actually be like, okay, so but what can you do?

You can grant the miracle of childbirth to somebody, but also what not like, but also

what do you want to do?

Because I understood on a human perspective, which was the point of Noah that he was part

human, that he wanted revenge against the guardians and the people who did this to his grandmother

to his creator, to his people, to this town, et cetera, et cetera.

But Zoe's whole thing was just she was tired and wanted to get away and she didn't hurt

people.

Did she?

Particularly like at the end, she was willing to rain down death upon everyone.

I think what she did was.

I haven't served caught one.

I think it was ambiguous because you could say that she saved all these people and then

she gave them a life of good health and abundance and then she expected them all to die for

her.

Right.

Which seems to be a different story than the story of what she did on Anton's world,

which is fine.

People can grow and change even robotic intergalactic assassin people.

But anyway, it's interesting.

I did it get out there and I, you know what, release the writers room cut.

That would be cool.

I would love to see more stuff like that with TV where it's like, hey, you know, lanterns

has been on for a year, but we're going to re-release it as like a different cut now.

You can watch it this way.

Like Michael Manda with Miami Vice.

That's exactly right.

Is that what you're thinking of?

Well, I spoke about that in my solo pod last week.

Could you or earlier this weekend?

I was busy listening to the Midnight Boys.

I got one pot a week in me.

Let's talk a little bit about Easteven.

Yeah.

Another show where writers are a writer in this case is taking liberties with simple

love and source material.

Yeah.

Personally, I was quite surprised to see Sinestro show up in Selenos Valley, California.

Thank you back there.

Wow.

I wasn't surprised.

There's a lot of fear there.

Clearly and a lot of like yellow wheat.

Like you weren't watching the same show.

I was brother.

You were not on my level, but go on.

And then Deborah Messing shows up and is like, do you guys believe in voter ID?

For me?

Yeah, careful.

I'll give a fuck.

I love that for you.

Anyway, Easteven.

Yeah.

Let's set the scene.

It's a seven episode Netflix mini series.

I talked a little bit about this in my passionate recommendation earlier in the week, I believe.

And Andy and I have knocked out four episodes.

So I think that's a useful first chapter or part of this series to talk about because

it largely encompasses Cyrus, Adam, Charles, Trask and Kathy Ames.

And they're and they're part of the story.

And and then we get into Callan Aaron later who are in I think book readers minds, probably

the main characters of Easteven.

At least they were to me.

And I would say the main character of this story is Kathy up into this point.

And this has been the conversation that I've seen.

So it can have mostly in press.

And this has been the focus of most writing about the series so far is the, I guess centralization

and to some extent, I wouldn't go as far to say like rehabilitation.

No, but the reinterpretation of of Kathy.

As a human rather than as a, I wouldn't go as far as say demon, but they say it in the show.

I mean, do you say in the show?

Yeah.

And I want you to like, I feel like you've had the chance to engage with Zoe's press more

or like, I would like to hear maybe your list.

Yeah, I hope you get to talk to her about this.

Yeah.

What motivated her, I mean, obviously the part of the story that is like the sound bite that's

incredible is her grandfather made the, the film version with James Dean.

And so there's obviously legacy here and this show is about family and legacy and all of that.

But I am curious about the, like passion she had for this project because it spans years.

I think it spans even potentially like network homes.

It was never officially anywhere else, but I think ending up on Netflix, the way that it ended

up was not necessarily guaranteed when this thing started.

Yeah, she's talked about hearing that this was going to be made and being like, I have to do this.

Sometimes when you can look at like the list of executive producers of something, it tells

you a story in and of itself.

And this is one of the, one of the anonymous content is a producer of this, of the show.

And Steve Goleman who founded anonymous content is listed as an EP of the show and Steve

Goleman passed away in 2019.

So it is a, it has been a labor of love for a very long time.

Okay.

But, but yeah, I do want to talk about, I mean, I want to talk about the unmatched beauty

of these episodes and some of the greatest, some of my favorite actors doing God to your

work within it.

But I really am interested in that point because as you were saying, episode two and episode

four are Kathy episodes and Florence Pugh is captivating and incredible in them.

But they do seem really, really engaged with doing the work of looking deeper in the

sense that Steinbeck really, and I'm not going to pretend that I read this book recently.

I read it in high school, but everything I've now read about reading it to kind of jog my

memory does remind me that Kathy is very intentionally a figure from hell, an evil figure.

And she is a product of the original sin.

Yes.

And, and, and Zoe, if you'll, seems and these episodes back up, the idea that she is

expressly motivated to, to know more than just that, not to leave that alone.

Let us learn more.

What would that look like in practice?

What is contextually interesting or historically accurate that might help produce a person like

this?

And the show doesn't sugarcoat it.

I want to make it clear that this is not something like, I don't think it's rehabilitation

in any way.

But it is, it is more nuanced and it is spending a lot of time filling in things that were

not necessarily on Steinbeck's punch list.

Yeah.

I think that this is the most interesting question about this adaptation is that can you do,

can you change the aperture, or can you change the angle that you're telling a story

from?

And in this case, I think trying to give Kathy more of a voice, she doesn't.

Voice over narration in the series.

She has, I mean, a lot of these scenes come from the pages of the book, but I think they're

told in slightly different ways.

Can you change that without changing the substance of her actions and words?

And so these are going to discuss the details of the first few episodes of East of Eden.

So if you don't want it spoiled for you, save this conversation for when you've watched

the first four episodes or perhaps when you've watched the entire thing.

This is a writer's room conundrum that I'd be curious to know.

It's like, can you, can you adjust how this character is going to be colored, how it's

going to be received in a, in a, in its writing?

But not change.

This is a woman who shoots her husband in the chest and leaves her newborn twin sons

screaming for sustenance to, to become a second madame at a brothel and enact a months

long plot to murder the woman who owns the place and to turn the place to more explicitly

a house of sin, a house of say no massacres.

Yes.

Yeah.

So in the book, when you're reading it, Kathy's behavior makes sense, quote unquote,

because of she's, she's born out of like this, this crack in the earth, you know what I mean?

Like she is part of a, a book of Genesis level, you know, like, like slice through humanity.

And in the show, she is somebody who is a product of institutional and social abuse of women.

Yes.

Yes.

That goes on, goes back centuries.

I think you could say that's the same thing.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

That there is like an element of that that I think, I, I think is, is Zoe Kuzan kind of saying,

one is, is almost like hard to visualize in its fantastical.

One is in interfaces all the time.

And they kind of could result in the same thing.

Yeah.

I think that this, I think the most successful thing, I mean, it's very, very, it, that aspect

of it is incredibly successful and really noteworthy and important.

Fellas, the phrase the female gaze gets thrown around a lot these days, especially on this

spot.

So let me be the one to really open on it.

But in all seriousness, you feel the work of a, I don't want to say just female filmmaker

because these first few episodes were directed by Garth Davis, who is incredibly talented

and made top of the lake directed the episode's Jane Campion didn't.

One of my favorite shows left, you know, that I was saying should have been on that near

time list, but I didn't vote for it.

So it's my own fault.

Copability matters.

In the sense that just by, just by staging the scenes that you're either implied in the

book, elitered in the book or in the book, with the perspective of, with Zoe Kazan's

perspective as a woman in the world in the way that she wrote the scripts, every one of

those scenes is charged differently.

What you feel in every scene that Kathy is in in episode two and four that I found really

compelling was you can see the calculus in the eyes of the men who say one thing and then

immediately do another, especially all the men who present themselves is like I'm not

like I'm like other guys.

Even the moment when, and Mike Feist is amazing on the show, I think when Charles wakes

up and she's by his bed and he recoils because he has said like like recognize like I understand

this is a serpent in the garden, I understand what she is.

And I am the same thing and I am bad.

And he pushes her away says what are you doing in his, his quote, I put his morals are

leading.

And then he plays it instantly being like I have a strong feeling about this unless you're

going to sleep with me.

And that is in everyone's face and that changes that changes the calculus of the character

and on screen.

And to your point, it becomes less about her being the source of all evil and more about

her becoming someone who recognizes the nature of the world.

Yeah.

And learns to monetize and weaponize it.

Or is like almost an outgrowth of it.

You know what I mean?

Is this is create her and she won't end with her?

And you know, her actions in this show, I wonder whether for people who are just watching

and have not read the book are confusing because they go against what we usually see.

They're not TV behaviors.

You know, they're not like usual on screen storytelling behaviors is to watch somebody

who's not just content being like living on the wrong side of the tracks or working

as a prostitute or you know, whatever it is that you see on the screen.

What Kathy does is try to fight against everything in the world telling her that what she needs

is a man and a family she wants to survive.

And she's saying, actually, I don't need anyone.

I don't want anyone.

I reject.

I want complete and total independence and freedom.

And it's a behavior that I think we lionize in a lot of stories, especially Westerns

about male heroes where it's, I mean, I wouldn't say anyone lionizes Ethan from the searchers,

but he is the quote unquote anti hero of the searchers.

And at the end, he's alone, but what he has given this family will lead to the civilizing

of the West.

Kathy does not get that grace note.

She does not have that what this woman did for the greater society no one will ever know,

kind of moment, but it is a similar kind of behavior.

You know what I mean?

It is a similar kind of like single mindedness and coldness that drives her that is a pretty

consistent characteristic of most Western anti heroes.

Yeah, I think that's really well said.

And I also was thinking about how this is a really interesting and thought provoking

double feature with furious, which we which we just talked about and lionize in the sense

of what does it what does it feel like to see as a male viewer or as any kind of viewer,

to see a woman fully engage with power or autonomy or agency or flout conventional behavior.

And in East of Eden, it is intentionally quite biblical.

It seems like a aberration from God for her to just say, no, I don't want these things.

And I think that that's another thing that that that I don't mean to I'm calling her

Zoe like we know her we do not, but that Zoe Kazan does is really, really underline the

moments, especially in episode three that are basically about consent.

That's in the valley.

It's when they get to she I don't want to go there.

Right.

I don't want to do that.

I don't want to go there.

I'm going to leave.

I'm going to leave all of those things.

And he does not listen.

Now, I think she tries to leave the first time she's like, I did tell you this.

And the way she talks to him, I think suggests some sort of perhaps deeper psychological

aberration in this character that is not conferred to her in the book.

You know, like whether it's sociopathie, whatever, however you want to diagnose her, it's,

it's an interesting wrinkle that I don't think they do.

They don't dwell on and certainly don't explicitly describe.

I mean, other people are like, she's tired.

She's weird.

She's giving birth.

It's postpartum.

Surely once she sees the babies, she'll love them.

Surely once she recovers herself physically, she'll love the babies.

Surely she'll, yeah, everybody needs to bend this thing into normalcy and speaking of

Western, I mean, that is also the subtext of all Western stories.

We must normalize this land.

And the normalization process is actually grotesque.

Yeah.

And that is baked into in a really thoughtful way into Adam's story as well about, oh, how

great you fought the Indians.

I will not speak about that, you know.

Now I think one of the things that the show struggles with and I say this with respect,

I don't mean it's, it fails.

I think it actively engages with and sometimes wins and sometimes it's maybe more of a draw.

Is that just that the sheer weight of all the things that have to happen in order for

it to be the book that it is?

Like for example, getting Adam from the child that we meet under the rough tutelage

of podcaster Tracy Lett to the Christopher Abbott that is just so blindly in love with

a woman who is only signaling disaster doom and gloom to him.

Yes.

Like I love Christopher Abbott's performance.

I think he's alive in every moment and he's giving us a lot of the soulfulness and depth

that is required for the part.

And I also like the fact that it doesn't run from the other characters' perception of

him as lazy or idle or insocid in some way.

I would love, but I mean, but I just mean like that, but it didn't stop me from doing.

And I guess sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but maybe this is more of my question.

It, it turned me into a TV viewer in the sense that I was asking, why does he love her so much?

As opposed to, of course he does because this is chapter two or chapter three of a seven chapter novel.

I can get the intellectual argument for why he loves her so much and it's not even based

on the book.

It's literally from the TV show and he actually is asked at multiple points.

Like, hey, like this is your opportunity to give up your way for this is that your opportunity

to tell me why this is the way it is.

And I think, you know, Karen Heinz's Hamilton character does ask him this when he's showing

him the property for the first time in King City or outside of King City.

I think he's a guy who comes from an incredibly hard upbringing.

That is true.

Maybe even harder than usual for the time being saw an enormous amount of violence,

mindless violence in the West when he was serving as a cavalry officer for multiple tours

and what was known as the Indian Wars and comes back and finds a brother that in the

book, I think is given a little bit more of a like and these guys eventually learned

to love one another as brothers and took Kathy came along in the show.

I think he's like, what is my life?

Like, I'm not a soldier.

I don't have a father.

My brother is like a loner farmer who goes to brothels and gets hammered as his like

relief from this hard physical labor that he is kind of consigned himself to.

He's not interested in going to California.

Adam's been a vagrant.

He's been all these things and then he finds this woman who literally pops up out of nowhere

on his doorstep and he shatter her body is shatterty.

Nurses are back to health or a part of himself that he's never been able to use before

himself.

Yeah.

Like, it's like he finds a part of his heart that he never knew existed.

Yeah.

And it doesn't matter what the reality is because he's written the story.

He's written the story that this is my salvation.

We are going west.

We're going to say that.

I think that's really well said.

I want to be clear though.

He's written the story meaning not John Steinbeck wrote the bottom.

Adam Trask is written the story.

Yeah.

Now it takes me to California with my beautiful new bride.

We're going to take a picture and every what he doesn't know is that behind this sort

of like scrim of a fantasy that he's having.

Kathy is is for lack of a better term, soiling that Charles's brother has desecrated

that the world is not interested in his story.

So I think that his character gets short shrift, sure, but I also don't want an 11 episode

page for page adaptation of the board.

Or do I?

I didn't.

Yeah.

I appreciate that.

I think that's really good.

But I agree with you.

Were you the English major?

But I agree with you that I don't know that it's my favorite part of the series.

It's like I agree with you that I wish he had.

It's only his Lee character and Kiran Heinz's Hamilton character are the chorus of this

tragedy and are allowed to articulate everything that I think we as viewers are having this

conversation about.

They should have a podcast.

And not just not just that.

Like I want to like foreground this by saying this show is fucking beautiful.

Stewart driver shot it.

He shot a lot of GM campaign stuff.

Like it is immaculate looking.

But everything, the costumes production design is astonishing lighting.

Like it really, really is.

And we are lucky to have it and it's easy to like lose yourself in it.

I mean, I jokingly texted you in for the first 15 minutes.

Like is it used to be even too beautiful?

Like column.

Laura Kerman did the music.

And there are moments where I'll just be kind of like this pretty good.

I'm like kind of coasting along and I wonder if the brewers are winning.

And then like the music swells in as the train pulls away from like face to the train station

and you're like, oh, is that just like 20 seconds of the most beautiful film you've

ever seen?

So let me just say that.

But in general, one of the things like of the multiple tracks that I'm engaging with

while I'm watching it, I really do have this feeling that again, I don't mind because

this is actually mirrors maybe the way you or I or anyone would read a big novel.

There are moments when I feel the intensity of the show leaning in and there shows where

there are moments when I feel like going more slack.

And the moments that I feel like going more slack or the attention going slack.

No, I feel like the show is the show is a as a metaphysical creation.

It's interest.

You know, like it comes alive in it's always beautiful.

And there are moments when I feel like it's leaning in and moments when it's kind of

like leaning out and it's getting it done and advancing the story or connecting the dots

or moving things forward.

This is not to discount what happens in those moments.

I mean, there's a version of this that is not just dismissive of the Cyrus Trass Tracey

opening, but just doesn't even do it.

And it was done with detail, attention and care.

But the moment that this show lit off like a firework to me wasn't the first moment Florence

Pew appears or the moment that she really steps into her own as Kathy.

It is that that that the the Kirin Heinz and Hoon Lee scene when they walk away from this

awful dinner, he stops speaking pigeon, he stops speaking pigeon and Lee is given a chance

to have a full humanity and Samuel Hamilton is given a chance to have full humanity.

And I want to be clear, I do not remember if any even version of this scene exists in the

book, but that to me was like incredible.

God to your television.

I do think there is a conversation where it's like I don't speak this way because I know

that he is like an incredibly well read.

Yeah, that's not like I can't remember.

I think that some some version of like they don't want to hear my educated voice because

that is a threat.

Almost the way that everyone is playing a character and the way you can reinvent yourself

in the West, but also like Hoon Lee is a phenomenal actor from from Banshee to your friends

and neighbors to the king and I on stage.

And he holds the screen and he has this deep well of humanity and intellect.

And it's just like when actor meets a role and I'm like, this is an Emmy performance.

And all senses of the work.

But also Karen Heinz is just one of our great that guys and he becomes this person.

And you love him and you see his roughness and you see the he's playing an Irishman in

a certain way and the way that they dance around each other and reveal each other and it

feels like invention and it feels warm and inviting and like free from the relative

and flexibility of we must advance the novel that it just was like it was just thrilling

to me.

I say that not saying anything else is bad.

It's just that are these moments when it steps into becoming it steps into what I always

love in TV shows, not just what I love in ambitious adaptations.

I think they're amazing on this show.

It'll be really interesting to kind of judge this show in its totality because I'm

marvel at the choice to tell an epic so intimately.

I think if I remember correctly, like there is a lot more stuff about the land.

What they're doing with it and what what it gives them financially and maybe that will

come.

But I think that the choice to make this more about the intense feeling of the characters

and I was is a really fascinating one because it's doing something that television can

do that maybe novels can't.

Now novels can narrate interiority, but they can't necessarily show people experiencing

it.

Right.

It make us feel it too.

I was curious whether or not you found the performance style to be particularly modern

or I think it's all on the same page for the only thing that matters.

I think everybody is agreed to act the same way.

That is the sign of a strong creative control, a strong creative.

And nobody is saying like inachronistic phrases or anything.

It's not nothing is bumping in that way.

There's a deep sort of like in some ways I wonder whether it's an homage to some of

the performances in the film because there is a kind of deep pain and modern psychological

ized, if that's a word, but psychologist acting going on.

I really like the observation and I want to think about it in a second half, but because

it is not a often discussed aspect of making something, which is not just casting, which

is obviously hugely important, but the synchronicity of good casting, where you're casting people

who are complimentary to each other.

And it's not like, oh, it'll be exciting to see these completely different acting styles

work together.

It's not sometimes that's amazing, like Jeremy Strong and Kirin Culkin, like sharing

the screen in succession.

It's like, I don't know if you could imagine two actors with more wildly disparate approaches

to the craft and it works.

Everyone here seems so complimentary and locked into what they're doing and they are also

playing in a kind of deep interiority, but they are playing a more wide screen, almost

tilted to history, to the camera of God kind of performance.

Do you know what I mean?

It's also the way it's shot, of course, but it's so beautifully cast.

I feel like we're underselling what Pew is doing because one of the tests of a great

performance is who else could have done this?

Who else, yeah.

I don't know of a contemporary actor that could have ticked all the boxes necessary, including

unlike a more cynical level, like getting it made.

Well, look, I mean, I think I've seen more actors than I can count at this point in

Pew's career decide enough's enough and that what they would like to do is make things

that entire families can enjoy or that they can show their kids or that, you know, like

we're, we're not, yeah, I, this is an incredibly challenging role and an incredibly demanding

role.

And I feel like pretty singular these days and just being like, I am going to be a vessel

of what most people consider evil.

And she's naked.

A lot of this series, like it's, it's an incredibly brave performance.

And I don't see a lot of other of her contemporaries doing this.

I agree with you.

I also want to run at your point about like doing things that for, for families to see

and children to see, I would like to take this moment to apologize to the families and

young children on Delta Flight 771 yesterday from JFK to LAX.

They definitely saw more of Black Widow than they anticipated.

They also saw your humble narrator, perhaps hitting the 10 second skip.

So if there was some nuance to some of those sex scenes, I am, I got a cop to having lost

some of it because they were pretty straightforward in the early 20th century, you know, they

kind of went at things not Kathy.

I don't know what you're talking about.

Kathy seems to be a cut above an emphasis on the cut.

Yeah.

The, the all time like hardest thing I've ever watched on a plane next to another person

is Manchester by the sea.

Because of how you behaved or because of how well I was locked in.

I do it for rewatchables and I needed to let a rewatchable film.

Honestly, it was one of our best episodes.

And but yeah, like a couple of things in that movie that I think my seatmate was like,

what?

My thing and I texted this to you and I didn't get a lot of response, but maybe it's because

I didn't give you the specificity of what I was drinking on the flight because I think

you maybe you don't know what I tend to.

I'm curious about what you're drinking.

The guy next to me did what I thought was such a good idea because they had the movies

which was like, I'm going to watch all of the JJ Abrams Star Trek.

This is my move.

I have told you this.

What?

The international play is time for the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Right.

So I think he was doing a version of that.

I don't know if he, if these are favorites or he was just like, this is cool.

This is the right level of engagement.

And he watched the first one.

And when I wasn't watching or skipping Florence Pew nude scenes, I was like seeing and kind

of remembering that movie kind of rips like that first one with Chris Pine and Quinto

and Nimoy.

Like that's a good movie.

And he enjoyed it.

And then I dug back into the farmlands of Salinas.

And when I looked up again, he was watching the third one.

Star Trek Beyond with Idris Elba, which I swear to God, I don't have any memory of.

I did not like I saw that one.

So I was like, oh, he must be, he must love this one or he must have recently rewatched

two into darkness.

Yeah.

But no, after three was done, he watched two.

Is he like the lanterns voter who wants to reorder it or was it a mistake?

And I just, it's driving me crazy.

I wish you could reach out to this guy.

And perhaps he was the whole time was like, I can't believe I'm sitting next to Andy

Groomald.

If you're listening to this, I can't believe I'm sitting next to the guy who made the Elizabeth

Holmes document.

I can't believe this guy is paused on this brothel scene and is now doing some sketch

work.

Yeah.

Why is he painting?

I think anything's up for grabs when you're on a plane.

It's true.

It's a lawless person.

If people are allowed to drink no matter what time of day it is, I think you can watch Star

Trek and whatever order you want.

God bless you.

Yeah.

I vote for you.

I mean, I, you know that my, my, my all time move on a plane is to, uh, basically like

draft off of what the other person is watching.

So I'll, if I'm, if I'm in one of those rows, I will like kind of clock what they're watching.

And if it's of interest, I'll do about 10 minutes.

No sound watching their screen.

Nothing has ever been more compelling than someone else's screen on a plane.

But then you start from the beginning.

I started dark night rises like right behind a dude, you know, wow.

And I'm just like, I got you, man.

If you miss anything, I'm your back.

You're the spare.

And at the end, we can, like, as we lamb, we can talk about whether Bane was right.

That's incredible.

You know what you should do.

And they notice what you've done.

It is weird for a few minutes.

And then when you turn to them, put your hand on their shoulder and say they've got to

find one of us in the wreckage brother.

No, I just go, you know what?

You had a good idea.

And there's no, right.

There's no ownership over good ideas.

Not a man.

Not an airplane.

The collective spirit.

No.

Yeah.

Hell yeah.

I love it.

Every mile matters whether you're driving your dream car or your daily commuter.

The mobile one team knows that.

And why we created mobile one advanced clean motor oil.

It cleans your engine in one oil change and helps extend engine life, delivering performance,

protection and cleanliness for vehicles of all ages.

All to help keep your engine running like new.

Whatever you're driving, visit mobile1.com slash advanced clean to learn more.

In some ways, I feel like we give slow horses or drift because of its routine excellence.

This episode featured a spoilers for episode four.

Four lost and found of season six of slow horses.

Spoilers going forward.

So this episode featured a character death, which was significant.

If somewhat telegraphed because of this person's, I think, inner darkness and fascination

with the going beyond this mortal coil.

It featured one of my favorite scenes of the season.

If not the series, which is Harkness and Lamb at a Shake Shack.

You're talking about the cable days.

And continued with the Sid and River kind of buddycott movie as well as a delightful collection

of some of the women who work in Slao House or have worked in Slao House trying to get from

one safe house to another.

Do you think five guys is mad they didn't get the contract?

Because I'll tell you.

There's a lot of five guys in London.

I saw that Shake Shacks numbers are down.

Oh, they've gone soft.

I think so.

I think they overexpanded if you ask me.

Wow.

Just my just one Wall Street guys opinion.

Danny Meyer come on the watch.

And suddenly leaned in.

I wonder I don't know how that happened.

But to me, yes, that would have been a five guys, although five guys lighting quite

garish.

I think I think the issue is more the peanut shells and like the aesthetic.

I think this had the right look and the lighting for the scene.

So the best space wins.

It's not really about they didn't even eat honestly.

So it is pretty astonishing how much people in at least in London like five guys.

It's a whole genre of food, I think.

They love they love a five guys.

I also felt pretty strongly that like the kid, the kid kind of messed up because Lam's

initial place for this meat was a more public.

Yes.

It was Liverpool Street station.

And there's quite good food around there, including some like nice, like even like take

out options.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that would have been a better play for both what he wanted to eat and also for

what Jackson Lam wanted, which was a successful spy moment.

Yes.

Yeah.

We're done talking about the episode.

No, this is the best season since the first I feel strongly.

I find it like, and I know people's mileage may vary on it.

One thing that is nice about slow horses and its consistency is that I do think that the

most surprising range of people in my life of all ages have such enthusiasm for the show

and get so excited about it week to week.

So I don't want to be like, well, actually, season five was, you know, substandard.

But I just find that the elevation of stakes across the board and the way that they are

playing the characters because the other challenge of the show year to year is like, how

do you group them?

Yeah.

This is a situation that you need to create a reason for them to stay here without going

away from the central conceit of what they're doing there in the first place.

So these are disgraced loser spies.

But they don't quit the business.

You know, they're not like, I guess I'll go into private security or I guess I'll open

a used book story.

You know, I mean, they're committed to doing this.

And you have to every six months manufacture enough story to keep them engaged, but also

slightly change their characters over time.

And now obviously like this is something that McCarran has done tirelessly over, I think,

10 books by now or something like that.

But in the series, it's just walking this tightrope of everybody wants the repeatable Jackson

Lamb experience.

Everybody wants the unflappable Diana Taviner experience.

Everybody wants the dashing, but, but Dodo brained River Cartwright like walking into

yet another trap experience.

But we need to somehow create stakes.

We need to somehow create an evolution of this story and have people have like memories

of like this happened and this happened.

And I don't want to go back to this.

I do want to go back to that.

And I think that this season is really pushing the ball forward in that regard.

And it's pushing the ball forward in terms of it's really placed lamb at a very useful position,

which is not just top down omniscience.

It's putting him right in the middle where he is worried about people that he distains.

He's involved in things that are above his pay grade, which like Diana and far below,

like babysitting his kid.

Which is just a funny subplot.

But also it gives him the scene with with Harkness about we used to rule the world and now

we're meeting at a crappy burger place and get to know I actually like Shake Check.

I don't want to be clear like free ads.

That would get me a lot of cred.

I thought that working on Harry Potter would impress my children, but if I got one free

shake check once, that would actually move the needle considerably.

That scene was of a piece with the monologue that was I think the high point of the previous

season where you where you learn that lamb has not just had skin in the game.

He has lost quite a bit in the game, but this reminded us of that figure in a way that

was really cool and like creating a distraction in a public place to get out of being killed

is not a new trick that the writers of slow horses season six discovered.

But I was such I was so locked into the scene that I didn't I wasn't thinking that way

when he let the cigarette.

You know, it works.

The old gold hits still work.

Also, some other things that were good are the folding a flight into the Slawhouse storyline.

Awesome.

The modulation of Roddy Ho so it is not just an extreme outrageous.

This guy is not just gross, but he's also actively stupid, which was one of the drivers

of less season and the performance is great, but it took you out of the moment.

So I think he's been modulated well for the season.

And then that whole set piece in the bowling alley again, it's like credit the director

Adam Randall because he's using these Neons and these the glow of these video game screens.

I like that outer like outer ring of London stuff or out like out like greater sort of

like these cities that have a filling station and like two things, but like aren't in the

play the playpark or like the for the suburban kids like the Russian assassins.

I always love Russian assassins.

I mean at arm's length.

Yeah, I love that.

How did you feel about about co?

You know, that character to me has has been played as both comic relief, but also maybe

has a backstory and like a interior kind of, you know, psychology that maybe is only hinted

at.

I think I would have to go back to the books to know if there's like a deep co sort of narrative

that I forgot about.

But I thought it was appropriate for the intensity of the violence of this season for

it to cost something.

But sorry to see him go.

Yeah, I agree with it.

I think Tom Brook gave a very memorable and very odd performance.

He was appropriate and it was surprising and it was a cool scene when he's just like

sort of sitting there with his knife and he's wondering about the what the benefits,

the pension benefits being in Russian intelligence.

And the whole thing about I drive.

But there was just a again, it's just like all the characters are shaded in a direction

of the season that makes me more interested in all of them.

Nothing has changed.

But literally every single one from from standish to all the other characters whose names

I'm blanking as I talk about them.

Louise, yeah Louise, that's the other one I was thinking of.

Like we're coming at them slightly differently and they fit really well into the mechanisms

of the of the season.

It makes me greedy and be like, oh, I wish these showrunners had another run at co.

Maybe there was more there.

But also they're working off of books.

And I don't know.

We don't know if these guys are suddenly like might take that wow, the show is so much

better now and reenergize just with these new showrunners is not meant at a slight

at Will Smith.

It also might be the material.

It also might be like, I think it's also like, it's an argument between whether or not

TV should be this repeatable experience versus this evolving experience.

And I think that that tension is what makes this show the fact that they are leaning

into it being more of an evolution and that these characters are changing and that the

consequences of actions are significant.

And it's not that they always get to avoid the exploding building and they're like, oh,

my God, it's sometimes they're in it.

You know, and I really, I really like appreciate that even if I'm sorry to see some of my

faves go down.

Also, it's fun seeing Olivia Cook is always good.

She's good on house the dragon, but it's fun seeing the things that she does and house

the dragon used better.

I would say given more space.

She seems delighted to be on this series.

I mean, she's, yeah, she's, she's, she's rocking and rolling after dark.

What do you got?

Do you want to talk about the Eagles?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Okay.

So do you want to set the scene a little bit?

Yeah, yesterday was a very significant moment in Eagles history.

Lane Johnson, who's probably one of the two or three best players ever were at the uniform

retired.

So that's two days ago.

And then yesterday we traded Camdurgens who was the starting center on our Super Bowl

winning team and the pro ball replacement to Jason Kelsey.

I've been moved to guard and was the worst offensive.

I do know the season.

We traded the Baltimore for a couple of draft picks and there's some discourse out there

that suggests this is a white flag season that this is we're getting out from under some

contracts and we're trying to increase some draft capital.

We're moving off of an old version of this team and into a new era with a new coordinator,

but that we don't think we have it this year.

I've watched all four games and I would reiterate that we do not have it this year.

Will you be getting up at six in the morning to watch Sunday?

It makes me feel better that we didn't actually go through with a plan that maybe only I said

which was we should go to London to watch the Eagles.

You did say that.

I did say that because I like going to London and I usually like watching the Eagles and

as a long time Tottenham fan to see this thing.

This would have been a kind of overcoming for you.

It really would have been.

Yeah.

How's your spurs fandom going?

Well, there's been the Fortnite break for international play.

I look forward to getting my teeth kicked in again starting this weekend.

My sports fandom is almost entirely sentimental.

It may surprise you to hear me say that I actually appreciate the lack of sentimentality

in this.

I think you're sentimental.

You're sentimental about how he rose.

Well, I mean, I do love watching a grandmaster at work.

This dude traded a one in a two in 2022 for a J Brown and Cam Jurgens and then in 2026

got a one and two back for them.

Did Harry Rosman tell you to say that?

That's magic.

Yeah.

That's wild.

I would rather root for a team that the team is based in reality because I struggle with

reality.

So I really, I'm interested in the fact that they seem to be seeing the same things we

are and aren't lying to our faces.

Do you know what I mean?

I think it's very difficult to do that in football.

Yeah.

I think it's one thing to say in baseball, you know, we just we're not that good and we're

selling trade turner and breast arbor if any.

We're not Dave Nebraska lifetime contract and we're not in basketball.

You can tank easily.

It's impossible.

Let's take it football.

I mean, you can do it, but people get hurt or you know, or guys lose their jobs.

Like it's very, it's bad.

Or there's lawsuits like a Brian Flores.

Yeah.

And so this would be a real like Zag market inefficiency like we're sellers, but the way

we're going to beat everybody is by selling first.

And that would be a real risk.

I think we are in for a very long season.

But I like again, like I also am not like a trenches guy.

You're like following these dudes on Instagram.

I'm excited for the Willie Lampkin era.

I don't know anything about him.

I like.

The smallest offensive line would maybe ever to play.

And then the other guy on the line is like six nine, but can't bend, right?

Right.

I love it.

I love the extremes.

No, I guess like I am more.

It's like don't get angry.

I think this.

I think we can agree on one thing, which is that the NFL is stupid.

And it is deeply stupid.

All teams are kind of bad except for three.

You can tell yourself this if you want.

No, but like the first six weeks, especially like nothing makes sense.

Most teams are kind of bad.

We've had it really good for a really long time.

And I do not take that for granted.

And I think that I would, I mean, ask me again in five weeks after getting, just stop

watching.

Getting boat raced for weeks.

But like, but I am more interested in the opportunity to be like, okay, let's see.

Let's see what it looks like if we have anybody here, if these guys are good, then running

out Cam Jurgens to wave his arms at people and getting pancake every week, telling ourselves

that this is the same team, the one that super.

I wanted to just get your on the record response.

Because Zach Herman and Sheila Capati were talking about this on the Philly special as

I was driving in.

They're there.

They're the voices in my ears.

This continues to go in the wrong direction.

Yeah.

And names like Saquon Barkley get brought up as a trade ship or Zach Bond.

Yeah.

Right.

You say what?

I say flags fly forever.

Fellas.

It's really about the color.

It's about the shirt.

I root for the shirt.

The front of the jersey.

You know, the back.

I will not hear any Jalen Herzlander and I think he's playing right.

That's weird.

Yeah.

I think it's not his fault.

So that you wouldn't trade Jalen.

Never.

So the cardinals.

What?

No.

No, no.

Okay.

Not my QB.

That's my QB1.

Come on.

I can't do this.

What?

You got to root for something.

You got to root for something.

I think the other thing that's crazy is for as excruciating as that Rams game was we were

two yards of winning it.

Like and then and then you say what?

I mean, I'm not saying I would have come away from that being like.

It's a game inches, man.

I don't know.

It could have gone.

I don't think that the sky is falling.

I think there are good things here.

I don't know what I don't know what has happened that has made me reasonable.

It could just be circadian rhythms being disrupted and travel.

But I am okay with it because I just don't Chris.

I don't like being lied to.

That's the thing.

Okay.

Radical honesty at all times.

You want to know what I ordered a coffee shop?

I'm not hiding a goddamn thing.

Okay.

Last thing is did you see LeBron James holding Tyrese Maxi's child?

Don't do this.

Don't do this thing.

I can't.

I did.

I did.

I did.

It's pretty good stuff.

It's really, really good stuff.

You worried about the Huckporty injury?

It's disappointing.

I feel bad for him.

We need a backup center.

Desperately.

Who you got?

I really, I don't know.

You haven't worked the waiver wires here.

I mean, we could get a body in, but I don't know if we're going to get anybody who can,

like, I mean, like Nick Nerser was like, well, like LeBron can do some and I was like,

oh, shit.

You know?

No, I just don't, I don't think LeBron was like, what I want to do is place small five here.

With his degenerative arthritis?

Yeah.

And my sciatica.

Here's the deal.

Yeah.

We're about an hour and 20 in.

So I don't know if anybody's going to hear this.

No show on Monday.

We'll both have travels next week.

So we will be united in New York City on Thursday to do a podcast.

We'll talk about the second season of the lowdown and maybe we'll complete our Ace of

Eating Conversation, which is so wonderful to talk to you about.

Where are we going to have it?

Are we going to record like at the Spotify studios?

Are you going to come to my office?

Are we going to do it at like boat bar?

Where would you like to do it?

I would like you to tell me where to go.

The last time we tried to record at a bar was at Babreather and while it was an awesome

experience.

We had a great time.

One of the greatest audio fidelity.

That was also do somewhat to us.

I think not really had a record of podcasts after 15 years.

Yeah.

I think ideally we would record it in a professional podcasting studio.

I can't wait to join you in that studio.

You tell me where to be.

I will be there.

I will be there five to nine minutes late, but I will be there.

Thank you to Sarah and Kai for producing today and we'll be back next Thursday to

talk about the lowdown in East of Eden and anything else happens.

And we will be East of Eden, right?

Is this the least?

I like St. Louis.

OK, baseball heaven.

Every mile matters.

Whether you're driving your dream car or your daily commuter, the mobile one team knows

that.

It's why we created mobile one advanced clean motor oil.

It cleans your engine in one oil change and helps extend engine life, delivering performance,

protection and cleanliness for vehicles of all ages.

All to help keep your engine running like new.

Whatever you're driving, visit mobile one dot com slash advanced clean to learn more.