‘WandaVision’ Revisited

Hello, welcome back to the Hex and welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson,

joining me today. If she weren't here, I'd simply have to create her. It's Mallory Rubin.

Hey, Mall. Oh, Joanna, what is podcasting? If not love persevering. Wonderful to be here

with you today, though, not in the flesh. I'm home, fighting off something, fighting a cold,

coming down with something. Didn't want to expose you with the team, but I'm sad not to be with you

today for this podcast because we love the show so much. Are you mostly sad not to be here today

because I promised to make Tom King's ancestral family dip for this podcast. And I didn't make

it because you're not here and I wasn't going to eat it solo on Mike. I can talk about books

so long, Mike, but I'm not going to eat dip that might kill me on Mike by myself. So I still

look forward to sampling the dip at some point at some point in the in the near term, hopefully.

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programmer reminders next week, vision quest starts. New Marvel Disney plus show,

been a minute. Here we are with our guy Paul Bettany in the mental

mind palace for vision quest. We're really excited to cover that starting next week. And so this

is our wand of vision sort of rewatch primer to get us ready to watch vision quest. So that the

only episode we're doing next week is vision quest. Very exciting. And then after that, the week after

that is a week we've been talking about for a very long time because we looked at the calendar and

October 23rd. There are just so many house of our coded movies coming out including Clayface,

Wicker, Wildwood, Claire and the Sun, which we'll actually get a mention in my sort of vision

conversation today. And so we will be covering some of those in some form. My eyes have seen the glory

of Wicker Mallory is going to see it soon. We're very excited. Other things are on the horizon.

But that is what is coming up on House of R Mallory Rubin. Look in folks, keep track of all that

perhaps watch us poison ourselves with molten cheese dip in the future. I feel like the dip is

going to be just delicious. Here's what I would recommend. Follow the pod. Follow House of R on

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an email because the inbox is always open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com if you have questions

about Wicker, questions about Vision Quest, questions about, you know, really anything at all.

Questions about what Mallory thinks of the baseball musical Dam Yankees, which she drafted in her

baseball draft. Do you know how thrilled I was to see Dam Yankees in your baseball draft?

Amanda was furious. I mean, I got a little bit of the like the response that Mahoney typically

gets from Davins when you know when he steals something right before. So that was a fun moment.

I mean, it's pretty good about my performance in that draft. It's fun to provoke that kind of

delightful outrage in Amanda. But mostly I felt like you were honoring our connection by drafting a

baseball musical. And I thank you so much for doing it. One last thing before I get to our spoiler

warning and this is really important. The Valkyries are leading in the semi finals. I believe they're

going to the finals of the NBA play of WMBA playoffs. So I just want to shout out about this for you.

Just want to shout out about this. I love this. So doing really well.

Listen, this latest journey for sports shows is just wonderful. Are you watching any of the baseball

playoffs? No, no, I'm not. Who's in the playoffs? Like who would you try? I just don't want to ever

miss an opportunity to say on the public record. The Yankees got swept last night. Now it's my team

in the playoffs. No, so we're a lot of Yankees fans going to hear that and say, fuck off. Yeah,

but I don't really give a shit. Who's got swept? Who's swept? Tampa Bay.

All right, Tampa Bay. The race. Yeah. Um, spoiler warning today.

We have not seen any a vision quest. So we are not able to spoil a vision quest. We have not seen

it. We have seen trailers. That's it. So no spoiler for vision quest. Just our hopes and dreams

of expectations and what could possibly spoil that. Um, we will be talking about primarily about

one division. Agatha all along is definitely on the table for discussion. Anything in Marvel comics

is definitely on the table for discussion. Anything in the MCU thus far, specifically, you know,

as it pertains to want to envision is on the table. Certainly Dr. Strange the Multiverse of Madness,

which is a, a key part of the Wanda story is on the table. So that is spoiler warning. Should we go

now to our opening snapshot? Let's do it. So we alluded to this the other day, but um,

I thought we'd just start with refreshing people who don't know what our personal relationships

are to the television show Wanda vision. A show we never got to podcast about together,

but a show we certainly watched when it originally aired. Malorie, what's your Wanda vision

relationship? Oh, I love the show. You know, it's, it's one of my favorite, not just MCU shows,

but, but MCU projects and especially now the connection to Agatha show that we also adored and did

get to cover together in the anticipation for vision quest, this, this trilogy. Um, that's obviously

part of what it's fueling our, our anticipation for what might await in vision quest. It's just the

quality of the two prior installments in this little triumph for it. Wanda vision, we briefly kind of like

talked about this a couple pods ago, but it was so harrowing to confront that this came out more than

a half a decade ago. Like obviously the COVID time dilation thing is, it makes it really difficult.

Yeah, when did things happen? Well, where, where were we in our lives? But I kind of can't believe

how long ago this was. It feels very recent, even though so much story has been released since.

You know, I think still to this day, even though all of that time has passed and we've gotten

so many shows since this is my second favorite MCU show. Loki is still number one for me,

but it's, it's close between them. Um, I just have like a really, really deep

attachments you and love for Loki, but I think that the creative

execution of Wanda vision, the cleverness and deafness of experimentation and exploration and

concept paired with the character dynamic and the really thoughtful interrogation of

grief and loss and pain and identity and family. Um, it was just beautiful. So the combination of like

watching it in real time, wondering what was going to happen next, what sitcom, what decade,

where we're going to be dabbling in, how was that going to render on screen, and then the

just wall up after wall up as we started to really understand what was happening, what Wanda was doing,

why? Just a really, really, really pleasurable experience in the moment and something that has

not only held up, but I think in many ways strengthened over time as we, you know, have seen so

many MCU shows that were not very good and have even more appreciation for what what they did here.

So yeah, Wanda vision just love it really delighted to have a chance to revisit it,

heading into vision quest just to rewatch it. It's fun to have the opportunity to do that, but you

know, mostly excited to talk about, talk about it with you. Um, yeah, I love the show. Yeah,

canonically, Loki is Mallory's favorite MCU Disney Plus show. This is my favorite MCU Disney

Plus show, Loki a close second, and Agatha is in there as well. And I think, you know, I think if

Loki season two had been as good as Loki season one, I think maybe Loki would have edited out,

but Wanda vision, if you choose to take it as a standalone thing is just so strong. And if you choose to

uh, make Agatha, it's sequel, uh, you know, which why wouldn't you? These two things could not be

more for me. Agatha, as we talked about it length, which stuff go like is so for me, but like,

as a latchkey kid of the 80s and 90s, like who grew up watching these sitcoms, like watch the

Dick Van Dyke show over and over again, watch the Brady Bunch, watch Bewitched, watched all of this

stuff, uh, family ties, um, et cetera, et cetera, like the, the world that they're playing in. And

it's just astounded to think about this as like the first, it wasn't supposed to be that this

wound up being the MCU sort of first foray into television. And you know, comes out January 2021,

um, in the wake of, of the smash success that was Amanda Lorian, we were just sort of like,

wow, Disney plus, they have it all figured out. And then they did it. But like for a shining moment,

we were like the nerds, we have arrived in prestige television land. And uh, no matter what

has happened, the ups and downs of MCU television, the secret evasions, the whatever, like

nothing dims the light that is, that is one division. These are characters. I just think this is

such a smart, uh, way to pluck out characters who had significant roles to play, but definitely

could stand to have a bit more attention paid to them. Uh, Elizabeth Olson and Paul Betney have

just such incredible chemistry. So to watch them play together is just so astounding. You mentioned

grief as a theme. I think also thinking about one division and Agatha together. And then, you

know, using that to sort of speculate about what we think vision quest might be about, thinking

about created realities, uh, you know, as they relate to trauma, uh, coping with trauma, right? And

so, um, the, the way we submerge ourselves in stories to avoid dealing with, uh, looking in the

mirror and dealing with our own grief, uh, who could possibly relate to that. Um, and, and, and

the way that stories can help us heal at the same time, like, you know, stories can be, can be used

to numb and avoid, but they can also be used to process and self reflect. And so I just think

the layers that are involved here and, you know, Jack Schaefer, who we just, you know, absolutely love,

uh, the creative, uh, creative mind behind this show and Agatha along as well. And then Matt

Shachman, who just did an incredible job as her close collaborator as the, as a series director,

the production design, um, the special effects, just everything together. Do I have some notes for

like what's happening outside of the hex with sword and all of that? Like, is that my favorite,

stuff in the season? No, it's not. But there is enough of, uh, that's like the MCUs worst

tendencies. And then the MCUs best tendencies are what's happening inside of the hex and everything

that has to do with Wanda, with Vision, with the kids, with Agatha, um, you know, and, and, and with

Monica to us, you know, when she's sort of more closely involved in that story, et cetera, et cetera.

So I'm really excited to talk to you about it. We, it has, it has been a whole in our sort of like

shared, loved relationship that we haven't gotten to cover this in earnest. So, uh, so yeah, here we are.

2021, January 2020 on full pandemic mode, uh, is when this show came out. It premieres over a

year after the release of Avengers Endgame. Wasn't supposed to be even that long, but that still feels

so close to Avengers Endgame. Uh, and in universe, only three weeks between the end of Avengers Endgame

and when this, uh, shows starts. And that's so wild because like, to think about this show,

um, having such strong connective tissue to the biggest movie in the world, this was the dream and

the promise of what MCU television could be, which is just sort of like, this feels like a beautiful

continuation of one of the biggest stories that we all watched together in theaters. And now we can

watch an offshoot of it, uh, sort of like beautiful P tendril, uh, unfurling at home for us. And, uh,

and then that all sort of like got overburdened and, and confusing and all this other stuff,

but like at the beginning it was so clean. And so, perfect. Do you remember what your reaction was

when you found out that like, wanna envision we're gonna be at the core of, of their own story?

I think mostly just intrigue like a little bit of surprise in terms of what it might indicate

for the MCU's intention, but certainly not surprised in terms of the depth of comics canon and the

history of great stories for those two characters together individually. So, you know, I think the thing

that I now with, with distance from the release cannot wrap my mind around anymore is the fact that

five MCU shows came out of one year. Like that is just so far removed from where we are. And now we had

one division, we have Falcon, we had Loki, we had what if and we had Hawkeye Hawkeye. Obviously the

very, very, you know, holiday release again. All of those shows either aired in full or debuted in 2021,

and that is just wild. And I think, you know, given what you, what you already indicated about the

evolution on that front and the necessary, genuinely necessary recalibration, right? We were getting

too much content, the quality was not maintained, the ability for people to know what they needed to

have seen and consumed in order to be able to dip into a new release became prohibitive for many

fans. But this was just a moment of kind of pure excitement, right? Oh, what is it? What does it mean

that we're going to get to spend time with these characters? So it for me, and I mean, obviously,

also it's not just about thinking of it inside of the the hex and the cocoon of the MCU. It's like

where were we as fans of pop culture? One of the things that I was thinking back on was like, now my

brain is barely working in general at this point in my life and certainly not today while I'm fighting

off a cold, but my memory is that I was like, did I podcast about one division? Yeah. And

you know, Jason and I were wrapping up Benchwood Marvel. We like talked about it. We would check

him. We would mention it, but we didn't, we didn't cover it in full. The ringer versus not yet

exists. My memory is that Van and Charles potted about this on TV concierge now for stage TV.

I potted about this on the big picture with Sean because there were no movies. So he was like,

right, because it was COVID. Wow. What a time. Yeah. So it was like, we're not in a stretch of

active film releases. People aren't back at the theaters. And Sean was like, you want to talk about

one division on the big pick. And so, you know, I think that was also obviously part of it. Now,

if it had not been COVID, I think we would have still been very excited for the show. And certainly

nothing would have changed about our assessment of its its quality and its inventive nature. And

it's hard, right? And depth. But the fact that it was a moment like a real derth of, this is like

the counterpoint to how many MCU shows we got that year was like a real derth of new releases

more widely across the pop culture universe. It was really central. It just felt like everybody

was watching WandaVision and talking about WandaVision and excited about WandaVision. The theories were

inescapable in a way that I think definitely this is a real two things can be true at once. Like

made this feel like a shared weekly experience and also hurt the show. Because then there was so much

disappointment when a number of those theories either went differently or didn't pan out. But yeah,

I have like really strong memories of watching WandaVision in real time. Much stronger than I have

those like many of the MCU shows that followed. It was like yeah, to take people behind the curtain

of sort of what it meant to cover things during the pandemic, it was such a strange time to be

you know, still at Vanity Fair and to you know, we were kind of leaning into these MCU shows sort of

only by my own sort of like we're going to do this. And basically they just let me do whatever I

wanted on that podcast feed. But everyone was home. So we could talk to any talent, you know,

it was all over Zoom obviously. But we could talk to any talent for a podcast because they were just

sort of like we're at home. So yes, you can have anyone you want. And it was just like weird

scrambled time where they weren't giving us screeners after the first three episodes. But we were

trying to get those podcasts out the next day. So it was just sort of like crack of dawn recording

with Richard and with Anthony. We would like scramble record it first thing in the morning. And then

also a talent interview and try to package that all out the next day. And it was just sort of like

because we weren't doing video it was easier. But like it was just it was just a completely insane.

I don't I don't think I've ever like sweated harder than I did to like get those podcasts out there.

And that was sort of like the last hurrah. But also I guess kind of my audition for working on

on the ringer verse speed. So you know, this is not a one division story, but obviously very closely

there after one of my favorite. Oh, I'm also you know, I'm thinking about covering it, but I'm just

like I can't wait to hear about it and what are people talking about and saying about it since

obviously, you know, as I've told you before my first vanity fair to came from signing up to

reach your pieces. So long time fan, long time admirer. But you're the the turn around on the Loki

finale, the Loki season one finale. I just have such a clear memory of watching that being on by it.

Still to this day one of my favorite hours of MCU TV, you know, texting with and slacking with

TD. We miss you. TD. We were just like, this is incredible. And we were talking about it into

the wee hours of the morning. And then your pod was up. It was like five a.m. or six a.m. or something.

And I remember you opening it and basically I'm paraphrasing me. We were like, I didn't go to bed.

Because this this ruled and I just had to get I just had to get on it. And it was one of those

ways that really like genuinely heighten the sense of connection during a time when people were

not seeing each other as much. Right. So that also contributed, I think, to why some of these, you know,

one of his and Loki season one, those show those are just dynamized seasons of TV.

But they allowed people to feel like they were sharing something. Like that was really, really

meaningful. I also just loved how much so, you know, this is smash hit. It's it's a beating a

face for for better or worse, beating of MCU TV for better or worse. Yeah. 92% critics on

Rotten Tomatoes 88% audience on Rotten Tomatoes high high score, flawed match or high score.

Large viewership. As you mentioned, Theory Corner, Huge Driver, the show. But I remember the

Agatha reveal, you know, which happens late in the game, but the Agatha reveal with the accompanying

like viral Bob that that comes with it was partially responsible for breaking this show out into a wider

audience, because I remember so like when I worked at Vanity Fair with Anthony President of Kin,

everyone, everyone there, most people there felt like they were too good for Marvel or too good for

nerd stuff. So they're like Joanna Anthony will cover the nerd stuff and we don't have to worry

about her to deal with it. But Agatha became but wanted to became such like a thing that everyone

was watching. And that was like that was just sort of like my canary in the coal mine is that like

my Vanity Fair colleagues were watching and were invested in one division. And I was like what's

happening? Like I'm not even sure these people saw endgame. Like what is even happening? That was like

the insane thing that happened with one division. Do you do know are you in touch? Do you know if they've

seen that game on court? I should ask. I know exactly who to ask to find out.

And so then the show got 23 Emmy nominations overall, which is a insane number. But like I think

what's even wilder is the eight sort of like like main competition Emmy nominations it got. Because

like it's one thing for a nerd show to be nominated in a lot of the technical categories because

you know and certainly like Game of Thrones was was running running the table on the Emmys to a certain

degree. But like there was something about one division like for Paul Bettany Elizabeth Olson

and Catherine Han to all get nominated for their performances. And Catherine Han was the

front runner. She did not win her category, but she was the front runner to win that category

for those people who were like speculating. I mean Julian Nicholson won and I would not take

her Maravise town Emmy away from her. But like you know, like I wouldn't have been surprised if Paul

Bettany and Catherine Elizabeth Olson her category. She's up against Kate Winslet. She was not going to

win. But Paul Bettany and Catherine Han like I wouldn't have been surprised if they won Emmys

for one division that year. And that is just an insane thing to think about.

Even this many years later. So just really wild stuff.

You think you think Spader is going to be competing for Emmys for Vision Quest? Don't roll it out.

You know, the man loves the competition. Love the competition.

Key players. So something else I want to mention. Marvel is still struggling to figure out

its approach to television. But a wild thing that those of us who were covering Marvel TV at this

time, like sort of learned in real time, was the very strange approach. Marvel took to, they just

decided to make television unlike television had ever been made before. And that worked for a minute

until it didn't. But the way they would think about it like film. So they hired a director

and a writer. And there was a there's a writers room. Their individual writer credits on these

ups up. There was a head writer, which is, you know, often the case was with television. But that

that person, the head writer is usually called the showrunner. And as usually in charge of the show,

that's not what they did. They hired a director and a head writer and those two people were sort of

in charge or in the case of like Falcon and which soldier it was like a handoff from one to another.

And that was like very dysfunctional. But like, they were like, we don't do showrunners because

they didn't really want to like empower anyone that much with the TV shows because it was still very

much like, this is all under the MCU dome. And so I remember talking to Jack Schaefer and Matt

Chackman, you know, and and Waldron and Kate Heron about Loki and stuff like that. They would talk

about this process where, you know, we'll talk about this a bit when we talk about like Darcy and

Jimmy and the way that they're using this episode were basically like, uh, here was the description.

It was like, you are one car on a train and you're allowed to decorate your car. But the car and your

train has to fit with the other cars on the train, but you're not allowed to go into those other cars

on the train to look at them. So they were like, we weren't allowed to know what was happening

elsewhere in the MCU. We were just sort of told unilaterally. Sometimes we couldn't do this

for reasons that they wouldn't explain, but because it would impact something else that was

happening in the MCU, but we weren't allowed to know about it. Or we'd be given a character to play

with, you know, they would say, you know, Kevin Feige talked about this a lot. It's like, okay, we look

at Juan Division and we need a law enforcement person and a science person. And they picked Jimmy

and they picked Darcy, but they could have picked a number of people. But it's just sort of like,

they have these holes in the story. Who from the larger MCU can we plug into fill it? You know, so like,

not something they were doing, but like some of these creatives behind the scenes of the TV shows

would say, we were given a character, told we could use them, and then they were taken back

away from us because they were being used somewhere else or like we couldn't use them. So it's just

this very like weird black box way to try to make a story that makes sense on its own, but also

makes sense in a larger world that you're not allowed to know all the details of. So it was like,

of quite impossible task. When you think about it, so the fact that Jack and Matt pulled it off

the way they did is just a huge testament to their ability, but also this show sort of lends itself

to that because it's literally taking place inside of a bubble. Falcon and Mucho soldier had a

much harder time with that because it's trying to deal with the global impact of the snap,

just like a really, really tough assignment, whereas this is like what's happening in this

literal bubble here in New Jersey, you know, at the end of the day. Incredible stuff.

Anything you want to say about like that moment in the MCU or Matt and Jack in general or anything

like that? I've talked about the moment in the MCU part of it. I mean, I think the creative

high-finding of that show is just wonderful. We've had the pleasure as you indicated earlier of

having Jack on the pod before. You know, during the Agatha Ron came back for a House of Recommends,

it just like a genius and a dynamo. And you know, I think that something that is undeniable about

Jack and about Matt and about the pairing and what they did in the show and then what Jack and her

team did moving forward in Agatha is the, you know, innovation and the thoughtfulness of how

the show should be made, right? Just the craft is kind of undeniable. Like, I don't know, one of the

things that I always love so much about rewatching WandaVision is the color bleed clues, you know,

because you have in your mind, oh, okay, we see the drone, we see the drone and color and the bushes,

but even before, you know, there's the little blinking indicator on the star test made 2000,

even before that, right? And the color bleed, but then also the bleed of the clues, like things like

that are just so, it's also intentionally and methodically calibrated and dispensed to us. So,

the level of execution is just really high, but the thing ultimately that I think makes the show,

made the show impactful in real time, it makes it lasting, right? It allows it to have kind of held

onto the place that it took root in our hearts is that there's an understanding of and a love for

the characters, right? There is a genuine desire to not just show us something about their lives,

but to try to understand them, to try to parse and navigate and mine the heart and the psyche

and like, I feel like if you know, our respective and our shared coverage of MCU over the years

if we went back and said, what's like one of the notes that we have like hit the most? It's

probably that. Like things can be different in adaptations, things, you know, but do you

understand the character? Is there like an appreciation of an understanding of the spirit of the

thing? And I think that's that had to be right with Wanda here, but it's as important ultimately,

and certainly now as we think about where the story was going to go moving forward,

as important to have nailed that with vision, you know, I think like, I don't mind teasing,

we have categories coming, I don't mind teasing that the finale is my least favorite episode of

the season, but that it contains some of my favorite scenes of the season inside of it, and those

are the ones that are rooted in their relationship and also the questions that those characters are

asking themselves in each other. And you can't, you can't bring that to your audience if it's not

something as a creator that you're interested in discovering. So I think that's just really to

their credit and something that made this such a rewarding watch. You make up such an such an

important point of why these shows can and should be so impactful, which is just sort of time

invested in character. So I was just thinking about this last night actually because I was looking at

the new release books this week. This is this is related, I promise. And I was reading the

description of a book and I was like, wait, I think this is yet another dramatic fan fiction that has

been turned into a novel, which is true. It's called once again, always I've read I've read that story.

I was like, wait, I know this story. But something that these books that are either based on

Raleigh or a Dermini or any kind of fan fiction bump up against when they become when a fan

fiction writer re-skins the story and takes out the the Draco and Hermione and takes out the

magic and takes out all this sort of stuff and and and puts it puts it in new context is you what

you lose is context. You lose the history that you have with those characters. So that's why fan fiction

can be so powerful is like you're already emotionally invested in these characters. You you already

know their background. You we don't have to explain their background. And so when we meet one

in vision from scene one episode one of this episode like of the show, we are already so

invested in their love relationship and also just like deeply curious and confused because we're

like isn't vision dead like what's happening here. So there's the intrigue and the confusion that

comes from the continuation of the story. But like in theory, that's you know what should make an

Obi-Wan show work and that's what should make an Asoka show work. And that's what should make a

Loki show work. And that's what you know is like we're already in these worlds and in with these

characters. And so like a pilot doesn't have to do what a pilot normally has to do because they're

already emotionally invested. And so I just I love these characters. It's wild to think about

actually how little time we had with them, you know, in Ultron, in Infinity War.

Before we got here, it's just like it's actually just like kind of mere minutes of screen time

at the end of the day. But like Elizabeth Olson and Paul Bettany are so good and also like

her love for him or his survival is the core of you know what happens within Infinity War obviously.

But like it's I just I just feel like the show is a miracle. Okay, we want to do a little mini

billion Tommy primer refresher just because we know that we know as opposed to them hiding trying

to hide the fact in Agatha, we know that Tommy is going to be in Vision Quest. And we know that

Agatha ended with with billion Agatha saying like let's go find Tommy. So we know that like the

search for Tommy, the potential reunification of billion Tommy and Vision like as a family unit.

It is something that this new show is is is going to tackle. So you know, I sort of vomited

a bunch of information into our doc here, Mallory, but like what do you think is the most important

thing to remind our listeners about in terms of Wanda and Vision's invented but real children,

Billy and Tommy. Yeah created right creations. The the the magic that that big bang

for radio active energy. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that was really on my mind

was actually what you what you just said, which is you know, if you think back to the we obviously

were talking about this every week on the pod when we were covering Agatha. I can't even remember

if we were like attempting to be discreet about it and doing it like separate theory corners or

if we were just saying throughout like this is definitely going to be just a dude being a guy.

Yeah, we should for sure a lot of that for sure a lot of that. But you know, I would say that the

internet was beyond a buzz. People felt yeah, pretty sure that they knew who Joe Wax character

in Agatha. Yeah, was going to be a teen. Yeah. And that is true, but it is still different from

definitively knowing and not just definitively knowing, but knowing the how I mean we had you know,

if we think back to the experience of watching Agatha and the car crash and the blood and the

scene, these little nuggets, what happened and what happened ultimately to will it, you know,

to William Kaplan and the essence and the porting of the you know, we one of my favorite memories

of potting about Agatha was ever saying so shard and just not being able to like not talk about

the pistol, which obviously is like the plate of being an MCU fan and covering the MCU. It's just

impossible to avoid. That's one of my my tics, you know, as you as you like to point out, but

we know, you know, we know exactly how the reincarnation works because we know what happened with

Billy and so we have and then we glimpse, you know, the little the little crumb for for Tommy.

And so I think we will be in a different place than the character because at least like you say,

we haven't seen Vision Quest, but just from the commercials, it seems like the show is mostly

going to be about, you know, this is where we leave white vision at the end of of of WandaVision,

like who am I, right? These are these are the questions and it was where Vision was the entire season

of WandaVision, what am I, who am I? There are multiple, you know, overt conversations between

Wanda and Vision about that very question. This is a show exploring, you know, identity and

and how that changes depending on who you share your life with, what memories you maintain, etc.

So a lot of Vision Quest we are assuming is going to be about vision piecing together his

sense of self. A lot of the cast is like other AI from across the MCU. So we know that that

means a lot of things, data information, the ability to share context, etc. Did you say,

but it's data or did you say, data, you know, I mean, and the end of the, yeah. So there's going

to be like the who am I, but then also the who are you and that's going to be you to me. Yeah.

Yeah. That just feels like it's I don't know what the balance of that will be. I don't know how,

I mean, it seems like Tommy's the third lead of the show, right? I think so. I don't know.

I don't know. I think so based on trailers and sort of credits, but I don't know.

And I don't know how quickly that becomes the case if that's like something that happens,

like a couple episodes or not, we haven't seen it. Let me just like big picture just in case folks

didn't rewatch one division or Agatha. Let's just like big picture and say in it. This is,

it happens differently in the comics, but in the context of the MCU TV shows,

billion Tommy, Wanda and visions twin children are sort of created out of Wanda's like grief and

energy and ability to to bend reality. She becomes suddenly alarmingly pregnant in episode two.

The twins are born born by episode three. They are aged up to 10 by episode four and

and that's where they stay for a while. Those two actors who play the 10 year olds are also

in multiverse of madness. So that's sort of like where we left them inside of inside of that story.

Their powers and ability. So Billy, a K.A. Wicken who is the second lead of Agatha all along

has psychic ability, ability, chaos, magic, wielding ability can create reality the way that his

mother can, etc., etc. Spoilage for Agatha, you haven't seen it. Creates the entire which is

road like out of his own magic and imagination and grief and angst. And then Tommy,

mother like son, exactly same tell Tommy, a K speed, is a speed, sir, like his uncle. And so we get

the manifestation of both of these kids powers inside of Wanda vision. We see the speed,

we see the psychic connection, especially that Billy has with vision inside of inside of this

season of television. The choice that one has to make at the end of Wanda vision is in order to

not be the villain, at least until the movie, to not be the villain is to destroy the created

reality that she's made. And that means saying goodbye to vision and saying goodbye to Billy and

Tommy. But she so she undoes the creation of her children, but she says something in in that

final episode about sort of like, you know, once your family, you will always remain family. And

the post credits seen in the Wanda vision finale, one of is Wanda summing through the dark hold

ominously. And then she hears Billy and Tommy sort of elsewhere in the multiverse. So multiverse

of madness is a movie I have a lot of issues with, but Wanda is in pursuit of her children and

feels like she deserves this one of our reality feels like she deserves to be with her children

and even it means destroying reality or stealing them from another reality. Billy aged up appears

in Agatha Allong as played by Joe Locke because when the hex collapsed, his soul flew into the

body of 13 year old named William Kaplan who had just died in a car accident. So 13 year old boy named

William Kaplan dies. Billy Max Moff's soul goes into his body and a question that Billy has.

So, George, Mephisto. Yes. And the question that Billy has for a lot of Agatha is am I

Billy or am I William? Like who am I? Which one am I? The answer is actually both at the end of the

day. And then at the end of Agatha Allong, Billy and Agatha in the penultimate episode,

find together find Tommy's soul shard if you prefer to call it that way his essence.

Which like the implication is kind of like he was actually Billy was carrying Tommy with him

sort of to it, you know, it's just sort of like you're breathing with him his heart is in your

heart. It was just sort of like was he literally carrying his soul essence in him or just like that

connection. But anyway, he takes Tommy's soul essence shard Mephisto, whatever you prefer and

puts it in a drowning boy. And so like a similar idea of like a boy who was dying or about to die

now has Tommy's Tommy Max Moff's soul inside of him. Something that Billy says when he does it,

to Agatha is he like am I killing this boy so that my brother can live like that's that's a question

he's asking him and Agatha says we're very sad like no boys die all the time. Billy,

but something one key thing he says about when Billy is finding a body for Tommy's soul to go inside

of he says it's a bad place. There's nobody there to love him. No people around him, no family.

So whoever this Tommy is that we're about to meet in Vision Quest, he was not raised lovingly

by the Kaplan's. He's had a different experience in life. So that is just something to know and

and learn. And I don't know how angry this Tommy is going to be, you know, because of his circumstances

or or something like that. So that is right. I think all of the Billy Tommy stuff we know.

I it's a nice reminder to that you know certainly we'll we'll we'll mine this more as we continue

the pod today. And I suspect that this will be present across the Vision Quest experience as well.

But the one of the things that was not just satisfying about Juan Division, but interesting,

you know, stimulating kind of like emotionally and mentally was that it was emotionally

and and ethically and morally complex, you know, the example that you cited of that that conversation

between Billy and Agatha, like we had we had that conversation right we had conversations like

well about the Kaplan's and what they deserved to understand or know like the shows both the

shows Juan Division and Agatha invited so many real moments of reflection about those choices

and the consequences not just on the individuals who they impact them most directly, but on

on everybody else. Obviously, that's it, escapable across Juan Division and certainly at the end of it.

In terms of the the power sets, like I love, you know, it's really it's fun. It kind of plays for

laugh and a chuckle when when when speeds powers manifest in in Juan Division and you know, Fiatro,

fake Pietro great great when Agatha coins Fiatro is there like oh little butt dude,

you know, he's zipping around a tali and there's there's a there's a mesh and jack the like it's

yeah, it's fun, but then the delay of Billy's powers manifesting and to your point about that

connection with Vision, you know, the fact that he can sense Juan is juggling a lot right there,

right, she's got a lot a lot a lot a little Mary and Ed strings to manage, but the Billy is the

one who first senses vision's peril not only is that like a fun thing for us to revisit ahead of

this new show that will explore, you know, vision as father, but also that's a great moment because

it's it's our first you know, when vision is pushing his way through the hex of trying to understand

he's been peat his suspicion has been mounting across the episodes, you know, obviously we have

moment, moment like the harrowing you know, he frees norm from Juan does control and really starts to

understand there's the moment with I mean he thinks it's agnes, it's agatha all along, but we have

all of these mounting moments for vision and eventually you know, he'll confront Wanda, but when

we see him try to push the hex and he starts to come like a heart, yeah, we are primed for what that

calculus is going to be at the end that they are born of not only Wanda's magic, but thus

entwined to the the hex and you know, the the the the the way that agatha kind of weaponizes and

mocks that idea that these things are tied the family and the town is the tragedy of it of course,

and so that's just also brilliantly done inside of the show, you also have on the on the power

front like a great we talked about this a lot when we were coming agatha, but a great that great

little moment where Billy is sitting next to agatha and the couch and it's like you're quiet,

you're quiet, you know, and so what we will see through the kids and how

we're startled agatha is by that, just sort of like, you know, uncomfortable really, really,

just really great. And like and just a reminder that these boys have been, you know,

fighting since they were, I mean, they're not real, but if they're real since they were 10,

I mean, also, I don't know, three days old, but also 10. Listen, boys, your mother and I are never

really prepared you for this, but you were born for it. Billion Tommy born of two,

two of these and and and Dave Gonzalez and I used to talk about this all the time, how like,

Wanda and Vision were always such a problem once they were introduced to the MCU because they're

way overpowered compared to everyone else like when you have, so when you have something like the

tarmac fight in civil war, you have to have Wanda and Vision sort of on opposite sides and like

occupying each other, otherwise it's just over, it's curtains, like, you know what I mean, they're

just like way, way, way too overpowered. So how do you like take them out of commission,

make them the problem for Thanos. So, you know, because it was just sort of like Thanos fighting

something else like Wanda and Vision together, like, surely should have been able to take him out. So

it's it's fun to watch them here in this context to have this moment in the Wanda Vision finale

where Wanda's like, boys take care of the military and just like leaves, like feeling sure that her

10-year-olds can take care of the military and they do. So, you know, just something to think about

Billy and Tommy. I have some parenting notes for you. I've done that one and, obviously, also some

parenting notes for Wanda across the world. In general, yeah. Some notes for Hayward unloading a

clip at two children, but thankfully, you know, thankfully Monica was there and you know,

it was a stewardess part as well. If Tyler Hayward didn't exist, this show would be better. That's

how I feel. Okay. Yeah. You mentioned not a great character. You mentioned a Gofiatro,

Ralph Bona herself. Let's just dump like quickly Dip Arto into I would say two of the biggest

barring the absence of Mephisto, which was never promised to us in the first place. The two biggest

actual controversies of Wanda Vision, which is Ralph Bona and the ending. I think these are the

two things that people bumped on the most. So, let's start with our guy Ralph Bona, play by Evan

Peters, who did win an Emmy that year for Mayor of Easttown. But what a year for Evan Peters,

honestly. But do you remember how we lost our mind when Evan Peters showed up? And so,

so a context reminder, this was so fresh into the Fox Disney merger era and so fresh into this

idea that like the Fox universe of mutants could collide with the MCU. And so, I remember I

wrote a piece where I was like, it's happening. It's happened. Here it is. This is why this is so

seismic. And like, you know, that was up within like hours of him appearing or whatever. And that

turned out to not be the case. But listen, you know, I had every reason to believe. But it was like,

you got the lock. You got the lock. You got to get the content of your sleep. So, you got to,

you got to react. So, I was like, here's why this changes everything. And does he's like, it doesn't.

But later, you know, they would do it. Anyway, I always loved Evan Peters in the X-Men movies.

And in general, I'm a huge Evan Peters fan. And so, when he showed up, I just like absolutely

lost my marbles about it. And then we get the Ralph Bona reveal at the end of the season. And then

crucially, for this conversation, we get the Ralph Bona follow up in Agatha, which I had the pleasure

of rewatching this morning. And so, my question for you, Mallory is like, do you remember your

Ralph Bona feelings at the time? And then, yes, I know we talked about it when we covered Agatha.

But like, how much does knowing about Ralph Bona's appearance in Agatha impact how he lands for

you here in your rewatch? This is something that I have a different experience with now on a rewatch

that genuinely unlike actually the thing we'll talk about next. I was in the same place as you,

the end of episode five, Evan Peters knocking on that door. The glimpse of Quicksilver's hair,

we're cutting, we're on Wanda's face, visions like who is that? And all time iconic Darcy,

they re-catchy re-catchy age. Amazing stuff. And like I said earlier, Jason and I were not covering

Wanda, vision week on Vigilaud Marvel. But this was something we were like, we, oh, we're not,

we simply months. They're here, the ex-men are here, exactly exactly what you're saying. Like,

this was the reaction that people had. It was like the seismic seismic thing. And like you,

I just share a great enthusiasm for Evan Peters as a performance. So it was, it felt massive for

the MCU, it felt massive for comic book storytelling, for the Hollywood merger aspect of it. And it

was just really fun and interesting and also kind of opened up all sorts of other, even outside of

the ex-men stuff, possibilities and questions about what they could do inside of this altered mixed

reality. It was a really, really, really fun, active moment on the internet. And then I think

people felt betrayed, like betrayed, which lied to, you know, yeah, like actively led to feel

stupid was how I think in real time people were like, this is how I feel. Yeah, which I never felt

quite that strongly about it. I, you know, enjoyed saying we got Ralph Boone or just like everybody else.

I think, you know, I think if we're being like good faith for counters, there was a level of real like

what, whoa, why? Like a real moment. I, I think I had some, wait, what just happened, feelings in

real time, but not quite to that fever pitch. We had the same reaction watching our guy,

Ralph Boone or a return in Agatha, which was not only that was just great storytelling inside of

that show, but it was so emblematic of the MCU at its best, which is let's actually continue to

refine and improve the story that we're telling as we are telling it. Right. Right. To learn

wrap our arms around something that is a perceived error, you know, pretend we never boned

at anyone, but let's just double down on the boner and make sure that everyone has a good time

with the boner, you know, any of me, which thing which we did. The boner, the boner campground,

like T-shirt, television, the, the stealth meetings in the parking lot. It was such a great little

way of, I don't, I think it's probably overstating it to say it was like an apology to the fans or

something I don't know, but it was an acknowledgement of how people felt about it to what you're saying.

And, you know, I think the idea that the MCU is a living document is just undeniable and so like

the ability to say something didn't quite land, something maybe didn't quite work or even if it

worked the way they creatively intended, it wasn't received to the way that they hoped it had been.

And so there's a little bit of an ability to adapt or find tweak and redeem, right.

To rehabilitate Ralph Boner. I think that what's important to note is that that is not the same as

saying the MCU should or has to be constantly worried about with, oh my god, if we're always just like,

I remember we talked about this in real time, it's actually very dangerous for a creative

high-mind to constantly be worried about pissing off the fans. That's how you end up with

Ryan's Skywalker. I mean, so we have to literally about to say everything. I was literally about to say

what's the worst thing could happen, Ryan's a Skywalker. 100%. Exactly. And so that's very dangerous.

And it can be a real slippery slope. And so that's also I think one of the things that we really

admired about the way this was handled was it was done in a way that felt like a recognition and

an acknowledgement, but actually still made sense in this story. I continue to stories forward

momentum. Yeah. Now when I rewatch WandaVision independent of, and look, I love Theory Corner

on the internet, but kind of independent of the of the hex that that created around all of us in

real time, that reality distortion was is to just watch the show. And I honestly think the Ralph

Boner stuff is like great. I did. I just had such I've done such a 180 on this in a way that like

kind of surprises me. Maybe I'm just more open minded as I age. But yeah, I love it. The performance

is great. It doesn't feel like I don't have that lingering pull of like disappointment when we

when we build toward the Monica Ralph adixine and in the finale, it's just all I see clearly now

when we understand what they were trying to do. And so I'm able to appreciate that as I watch it

instead of feeling doop. So I like the Ralph Boner stuff now. What a twist. I agree. And I think, I mean,

we're going to talk about theory stuff in in the categories that we have today. But like, I guess,

I mean, I'll I'll pretend I don't think this is our answer. But like I'll just potentially step

on the fact that like when Monica's like my guy was my truck. Okay, we could talk about it later

then. But it's just sort of like I'm like what mushrooms were we on that we just like

I know. It's just insane to watch. So okay, anyway, we'll talk about that later then.

Um, yeah, I'm I'm with you. Like the Ralph Boner stuff. I don't I agree with you. I was not as

outraged as some people were at the time. Um, but I was still like, oh, this sucks. You know,

that there's like so many reveals inside of the show that like it almost feels like they could have

you know, were they to do it again? Maybe they could have sort of like nodded to the fact that

something weird was going on to like give us a like a kernel that like something else might

be going on here. But I guess they kind of anyway, whatever Ralph Boner, yeah, I

I'm being deemed to his or her degree. Yes, I just don't feel that sense of deflation now,

Revis. No, I think that's the that's the the summation of it. And like, and I think it's always

wild to rewatch things outside of the fever dream of of of theory corner. And I do exactly think.

You know, it was a less and hard hard one over covering many shows. But I do think WandaVision is

like a huge source of my whole your theories loosely sort of, you know, lecturing attitude that

I take towards people because I'm just sort of like why wind yourself up and set yourself up for

for disappointment when the show itself, you know, yes, it's trying to like be cheeky and fun,

but it's never trying to like screw you over really at the end of the day. And so like it's it's

really only we work ourselves up into a lather that leads to that kind of feeling, do you know?

Yeah, I think I think that is often true. I think that for people who are really, really bummed

out by this, it probably does still run afoul of that where it's like maybe you can watch it

through those eyes and see it's fun, it's cute, it's winky, it does actually kind of ultimately fit

and abide by the rules of what we come to understand is happening. But there was a multi episode like

invitation to consider. 100%. This could just be the quick silver in the MCU now and what would that

mean? So 100%. Yeah, what a what a time that wasn't the internet. My goodness.

Meanwhile, something we have not necessarily changed our minds about is the ending of one

division, which like to you know, and you acknowledge this earlier, there are things in the finale

that are absolutely beautiful. And you know, in rewatching, you and I discussed about whether or not

we were going to rewatch all of Agatha and I wound up rewatching basically like the back half of Agatha

and then sort of like spot which spot watch some stuff in the beginning, but like the finale of Agatha

is also not my favorite. And so like, you know, I think there's some misfire, miscalibration of

what is exactly wanted versus you know, like the Loki finale, which is like one, you know, an

incredible episode of television. So I don't think of finale, a bummer of a finale, you know,

leaves a bad taste in my mouth for a whole season of television. I don't personally feel that way.

And there is enough as you alluded to enough like incredibly strong stuff in the finale,

Wanda and Vision, Vision and Vision. You know, it's just some of the like, I actually think the

penultimate is really, really strong. The sort of like walk back through Wanda's mind episode.

It's just that MCU is still in a place where they felt like people needed to like punch each

other in order for, um, to feel like a conclusion of a story. And we weren't yet to like the Thunderbolts

group hug, you know, version of how to deescalate or even like, you know, what we just talked about

on the on the lanterns finale. And so, um, I was thinking about lanterns a lot, rewatching this

finale because it's now, I guess I'll acknowledge that not every thematic personal conversation in

this finale works either, which will hit in a second. But, you know, that like, I think the punch

of in the sky stuff in the finale here is just it's bad. It does not measure up to the quality of

the rest of the show at all. Obviously, um, I just, I, the Monica Wanda exchange, no matter how many

times I revisit the show that I love will never sit right with me. It won't. I will actually add and

say, I think the Monica stuff in general. And perhaps, you know, to, to the Ralph Boehner point,

like perhaps if Monica in, in Captain Marvel, like the Marvels and the way that had been deployed,

like if, if Monica had been used, you know, we enjoyed the Marvels more than a lot of people

enjoyed the Marvels. But like, still, I would not say that is like the most successful character

piece I've ever seen in my entire life. And so like, maybe if Monica had become a character that

we were all just like really, really invested in, it would have retroactively helped some of this

origin story that, but like, it don't, I'm just sort of like, we're doing a whole characters origin

story of their powers inside of this other story that were telling. There was just like way too much

on the plate. And unfortunately, like, I feel like Monica's story then gets like a short shrift.

Like, I really like the performance a lot. I like the, the section where, you know, she's,

you know, coming back from the snap and, and all of that sort of stuff like that is, that is

incredibly powerful. And, and the stuff when we first meet her inside of the Hex, like, that

stuff is really good. But like, I guess it's just a, it's just a, a factor for being associated

with the sword stuff and the sword stuff, I think in general, is just like, really rickety that,

that that Monica's just not well served by, I would have just rather her have a more dedicated

origin story than just sort of like a sea plot origin story inside of this, this, this larger show.

So yeah, that, that stuff doesn't really work for me. Yeah, I agree. And I think like,

this is kind of a tricky thing to parse and like a little bit of a difficult argument to even

attempt to make because on the one hand, obviously it's undeniable that part of the, you know,

purpose and, and mission of this show of this story is to find empathy for somebody who is going

through something devastating and world shattering, right? To, to, to, that is like what the show is about.

So it's not like it is inherently invalid that Monica is a character who is able to show an

uncommon degree of empathy to, to Wanda compared to some of the people around them in the story

because she has some sort of parallel loss, right? She is, has come, she's come,

cup returns from the blip and she is, this found out that her mother died and she has this grief.

And so she's like, I understand what that pain feels like. I would bring my mother back

if I had the ability to do so like you had, right? At the end of the day, one of the things

the show does well is like, you know, don't let him make you the villain. Maybe I already am. That's

actually another Monica Wanda conversation from earlier about about Heyward. Obviously all of the

Agatha Wanda stuff on this front is like really good. Not the, not the, the shooting spells in the

sky stuff, but the what, who are you? What are you? Right? And why have you done these things

every moment that vision and Wanda share about what is right, what you want and what you seek and

what you need and why, but also what you have to let go of all of that stuff that connects to

that core interest is perfect. And what is real. And what is real and what is real. And isn't it all

real if you feel it, right? Like that's how beautiful. That's why we love the show. Yeah.

They'll never know what you sacrificed for them. Like I get it literally you, you said goodbye to

the kids and your husband and the house so that they could be free of your mind control. But these

it's 3000 people that want to canonically mind control and tortured. Right. And it just doesn't,

it just as a, but here's one of the end notes on the season. It's like it really, it does not

work for me at all. Here's my defense of Wanda and I and I feel like, and I know, I know you're not,

you're not saying this, but I, I just feel like and a lot of this unravels with what happens with

Multiverse of Madness, which I think is a huge misstep in terms of where we leave this character

at the end of the show and then where we find her Multiverse of Madness. Like, you know, we love

Michael Waldron. We have a lot of admiration for the storytelling in general. But I think

that movie did want a really dirty. And I think, you know, yes, she has this sort of like

self-sacrificial, heroic, redemptive move at the end of that movie. But like,

her walking out of this experience where you could say, and it's in the text of the show that

you could say, like, she didn't fully realize what she was doing. And then once she realizes it,

that's when, you know, she wrestles with it a bit, but she ultimately makes the right decision

when she really understands the consequences of her, her self-involved selfish grief spell. Like,

versus an Agatha. And the argument I made at the time and I would stand by it again, Multiverse

of Madness really undercuts me. But like, in terms of like second chances and redemptions and all

these things that characters are allowed to have, like, the red carpet that is rolled out for a

character like Loki and the door that is slammed in the face of a character like Wanda. I'm just sort

of like, the people we allow to have a redemption versus not is really painly obvious. And so,

I just remember the time people were just sort of like, she should have died or she should,

you know, she should be locked up or all this sort of stuff like that. And again,

she breaks even further bad in the movie. So like, maybe that just nullifies my entire argument.

But I still maintain at the end of this show that like, a redemption path is available to her.

She doesn't get to necessarily get the pat on the back that she gets from Monica,

which is what you're saying. And I agree with you. But I just think that like,

she doesn't do anything in this show that I watch and say there's no coming back from this.

Agatha does an Agatha doesn't her own show, which is why, as well as for that show,

she is a ghost now. Like, she doesn't get to live at the end of her show because she's

irredebable at the end of the day. You know, despite the self-sacrifice that she makes at the end of

that show, she's already crossed the Rubicon. Wanda, there was still a turning back moment for her

here. And then then there wasn't. So, you know, yeah, I, I mean, I think I, the moments across,

you know, the middle stretch of the season into the end where Wanda is, where the, as you said,

initially she does not know what she has done, right? As her awareness is budding and building,

and she is saying it has these moments, these opportunities in real time, but does not take them,

and continues on with it, right? The casting out of quote-unquote Geraldine of Monica, the

active challenge to, to, to, to sword when, when Vision tells her that he freed Norm and that he's

in pain and she, they have that exchange about like, you know, visions like you can't control them,

like you, they can't control me like you control them. And she says, can't die. You know, we have

the point of that is that it's just complex. I agree with you like, I never ended the series

thinking Wanda was beyond redemption or that that was the point. Certainly it's not. I think that the

complexity, you know, I, in that Monica exchange, like I like Wanda's response, which is it wouldn't

change how they seem here, right? You know, when you have a moment, because in the finale, especially,

she's really grappling with what this means, what she's done and agonizing over it, you have like

Doddy, sorry. I have a coffee old. Unbelievable stuff on you, my queen. I did not recognize her at

first. Adam had to tell me. I was like, wait, what? I just, this is amazing to realize that.

And then you would text me about it as well. The, that moment where Doddy is, is the spell lifts

and Doddy, aka Sarah, begs Wanda to let her daughter out of her room is so harrowing. And those

moments are in the show for a reason. Wanda and the viewer at home has to confront what has happened

here. I don't think that the intention is for us to say, and thus she must die be in prison,

pay forever. I just think where Monica goes with it is too much of an instant hand wave. Like it's

too, it's just too sweet, too sweeping. And I think that for a show that is defined in its excellence

by its nuance and its subtlety, it felt out of step with the really deft ability to weigh

and hold in our hands at once our love and empathy and sympathy and desire to forgive and accept

someone who has done something really grievous with our ability to identify that they have. Like

that is what the show does at its best so many times. And so that moment with Monica and Wanda

in the town square feels really outside of that almost like it's from a different show.

Do you expect or want Elizabeth Olson in Vision Quest?

Okay, so to recap, Wanda gets a mountain dropped on her at the end of Multiverse of Anas.

So, so, Dash. But in Agatha, Billy Asagatha is Wanda dead and Agatha is like, yes, no.

Yes, no, it's complicated. You know what I mean? Leaving the door open for this opportunity.

I believe Elizabeth Olson has said, hey, I kind of want to be done. And you know, and she's out there

saying like she's excited to watch Vision Quest, but that's something she would say anyway if she

was in it. So like, do you expect her to be in it? Are we setting ourselves up for a

Mephisto level disappointment if she's not? Do you want her in the story? Like how do you how do you

feel about it? I would be absolutely thrilled if I think from the moment Multiverse of Anas ended,

we were like, Wanda will be back at some point. And the thing you just noted, like Elizabeth Olson sort of

saying, I'm, I'm, I'm good here. Like I'm, I'm, I'm good here. Is the reason it has felt maybe

really unlikely that she would return that can change obviously like for a long time Chris Evans

was like, not for the same reasons, but was like, I'm done. You know, I played cap for a while

and I'm done. And that was, you know, not the case either. So nothing is forever. I think it would

be lovely to see Wanda here in some capacity. I mean, I expect to see her in memories, basically

no matter what as we like, like, like, as Vision on Wanda, yeah, yeah, yeah, exist in footage as vision

unlocks, you know, access to this, this life. Yeah. But whether Wanda will return in the, the

storyline and the timeline moving forward, I think the reason I'm most inclined to say no is

the Elizabeth Olson thing, but also that this feels like a putting a bow on the Wanda vision,

Wanda end vision, a slice of the MCU, like that this is the end of it. But then I don't, I kind of

don't believe that anything is ever over in the MCU, honestly. And also when Robert Dunning Jr.

continuing on. Yeah. Robert Dunning Jr. I know not as Tony Stark, but Robert Dunning Jr. being

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Next is a section I'm calling you see the vision. In honor of one division,

vision quest being two of the most delightful play on word titles that we've gotten

for TV shows ever, we're doing what we did with our stranger things we watched or like a version

ish of what we do with our Buffy, which is we each picked a scene that we felt exemplified,

specifically like the character vision, because that's what we're spending forward with is we're

going inside a vision's mind and we're spending time with the great Paul Bettany. And so

the character vision inside of this show want to vision, what is the scene that sort of best

exemplifies what the character can be at its best and what we expect to explore going forward.

We both agree that there were really only two options, so we each picked one and we're going to

start with mine from episode eight. Because it can't it will be sorrow, can it?

I've always been alone, so I don't feel the lack, so I've ever known.

I've never experienced loss because I've never had a loved one to lose,

but what is grief, if not love, persevering?

The most famous line to come out of this season of television,

an incredible moment from the penultimate episode where we sort of go back to

Civil War sort of timeline. I love this scene so much and that clip cut off before

for legal reasons of duration of clips we're allowed to have, but like if I had enough time in the

world, I would show you Agatha herself wiping away a little tear that I actually don't think is

ironic in her reaction to that scene. Here's why I think this is so important for the character

of vision. Is a storytelling opportunity that comes inside of sci-fi stories, and I'm saying

sci-fi specifically not sci-fi fantasy because of the nature of an android, is android as storytelling

devices to unlock exploration of human emotion. This sort of outsider perspective, this childlike

wonder inside of the mind of a hyperintelligence sophisticated creation that is an android's mind

allows again and again across literature and film and television for these kinds of moments where

you have whether it's in Blade Runner, Irohbot or all sorts of things just sort of like,

what is it that makes a human a human? And why are you different from me? And what is the essence of

you? I was thinking about Claire in the son of book that I know you love very much, Kazoo Ishikorou

about, which is about an artificial friend, this little helper girl trying to understand the

humans around her, it's told from her point of view. So she's trying constantly to understand

like what makes a human a human versus what makes me me. And there's this exchange

earlier in the book, do you believe in the human heart? I don't mean simply the organ obviously,

I'm speaking in the poetic sense, the human heart, do you think there's such a thing,

something that makes each of us special and individual. And then at the end of the book,

Claire talking about the girl she befriended Josie, she says there was something very special,

but it wasn't inside Josie, it was inside those who loved her. And this is just like one of the

one of the mic drops of the book is that is that idea. And so it's just like as a storytelling

device, you know, this is true of data on Star Trek, this is true of Anya in Buffy, even though

she's not an Android chief of bills, that sort of archetypal role of just sort of like,

one of you have to like Anya inside of an episode like the body on Buffy Vampire Slayer,

you have this sort of like, I don't understand or I'm trying to understand this human condition

that we're all born into and we're raised by adults who have gone through things and just sort of

like accept the status quo or don't close the exam in some of these bigger thoughts and emotions

and feelings because I don't know, they're hard to examine or they've just always been around us,

it's just sort of the the frog and the boiling pot of water that we've always just sort of come up

in our lives and so it takes us outside our perspective, a vision to sit with Wanda in this moment,

a profound grief over the loss of Pietro in Ultron and and underscore something for her and then

he follows it up by just sort of like noticing something that's happening on the television

then they laugh together about a sitcom and they just like sit there together and enjoy sitcom

storytelling which is canonically we just found out early in the episode, this thing that she

loved to do with her family and and as as she states overtly this idea that like shenanigans inside

of a sitcom are just sort of these manageable issues that can be solved within the half an hour

and it's just a way to make big feelings feel small and manageable and accomplishable and

is why people find comfort in either like procedural television or sitcoms over the case may be and

so like to go from this like big profound let's talk about these big emotions to like let's share

this small simple human pleasure together is just a big part of like why I think vision is such a

a wonderful character his curiosity and interest and love for Wanda in the first place

this like troubled teenager this troubled teen that he like they just sort of yada yada over that

but like the troubled teen that he meets and and how you know his android heart is is you know with

love and respect to pegging cap like the most sort of romantic I think character like you know in

terms of like chivalric romantic character we have inside of the MCU and I just think it's a it's

so beautiful and I just I love the two of them together I love this scene I cry every time just

like Agatha and and I'm really excited to think about what this means for you know again we haven't

watched the show but we've seen the trailers like vision trapped inside of his own mind trying to

figure out and and this will play into your scene pick but like what makes him him what makes uh

versus a human you know and then how can he have you know we're theorizing here how can you have

love for a Tommy how can you have that kind of connection where does that kind of emotion come

from uh in this newer version of vision that we are to meet um in vision quest uh do what do you

want to say about this scene or would you like to move to your scene instead oh no no no no no no

definitely want to talk about this one um yeah I love that scene two one of my least favorite things

happened during the long division run was the contingent of people who were like

why do MCU fans think that's like touching and profound you know I that was like such a bummer

and there was a lot of pressure at the other day and I almost kicked him off the press to

UCV podcast I was like get get that line out of your derision for that line out of your mouth you know

you know for a lot of reasons but I think what um you know what you were saying about just genre

stories right and that's so much of the joy we find in them is the way that a moment and idea

align can unlock something about your real life inside of this world that is not worse right

that's the beauty of it so you know it's a it's a a line that has I think that it resonated in real time

and has lasted um you know for a reason and obviously means a lot to a lot of people I think that

that's obviously a beautiful wand a scene and in that moment with Agatha and Wanda like

parsing and trying to Agatha's on the fact finding mission of who who exactly what what is this

this magic right but you know it's such a crucial kind of thesis statement for what the show is

gonna continue to explore and has been exploring um you know but to your point about what it tells

us about vision like I love the uh that I've always been alone so I don't feel the lack and like

thinking about vision in that moment newly born uh versus and this is a newly born vision of a

a different sort now um but that that that's not true anymore right that when the vision that Wanda

created inside of this show uh converses with himself and the scene we'll talk about next

and touches you know the gem on his forehead and the data's there on on earth sit and brings it back

and then um the the the the physical you know the corporeal vision that Hayward has be fouled and

restored starting to like recall who he was in the life he lived that so that like I've always

been alone won't be true for him because it it wasn't true for this vision right that he is

gonna rediscover the relationships that meant so much to him and that he has grief of his own

now as a result like is such an interesting way to think about character evolution um especially

given the different versions and realities in this world but like what you were just beautifully

saying about what a like an android or a figure like that can do I mean listening to you talk

about that in the Clare comp which I of course love like it just makes me think of that that scene

between um between vision and Ultron at the end of of age of Ultron not my favorite MCU movie

but I love that scene and that conversation you know it's the it's the the the the ha ha like

well I was born yesterday after the year you know I'm barely naive but the it's the humans are

odd vision moment right they think order and chaos or somehow opposites and try to control what

won't be but there is grace in their failings I think you miss that like right away that's how

vision is thinking about humanity now some of that is the necessary shorthand of why is this robot

good and this robot bad why is this AI good and this AI bad like you kind of have to establish that

for now many MCU fans have an attachment to vision as a comics character already but some won't

and so they have to understand why they can believe him basically right hopefully he lifts me

near and so hammer is gonna start hand yeah that really does a lot of that for us but you know

that's also the great like a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts sequence which then we're

thinking about when we're watching one division and now we will be thinking about after one division

so it all feels just across the the the story um really kind of amazingly connected I think what

you said earlier is definitely right about the the potency and impact of the moments given the

the relative death of screen time certainly before um the TV show but you know even frankly after

compared to the the the TRT that some characters have racked up across the MCU so um I ride

for the what is grief line and I and I always well and not everybody has to and that's okay but don't

my thing is always like you know that's like I think people can critique something that they don't

think is good that's fine I don't like when people makes other people feel bad for thinking

something is meaningful I don't like that yeah that's all um I feel like that's happening a lot in

2021 when we were all watching this I think that um to your point about that

solitude again we haven't watched vision quest but like our understanding from closely

watching the trailer which I recall saying I watched like 15 times when it came out is like he

seems quite alone he's like working in like a pub somewhere in the middle of nowhere and we don't

really like and then we see him sort of like powered down in the storm and so he has these like

AIs inside of his head but in terms of like uh I don't want to undercut the AI to AI connection and

and uh say it's not real but like there's that connection but like what other connections

will he be able to make in the world and will that be Tommy or will that be a Billy or will it be

both of them I'm sure it will um but yeah just that sort of like he has gone from and this happened

to one to two at the in in the post finale you know or or when we meet her in multiverse

madness like to go from being surrounded by your husband and your kids or your wife and your kids

in the case of vision to I clean glasses in a pub in the middle of nowhere or I am in a cabin

reading the dark hold this is fine this is fine don't worry about me I'm fine like

the pang of that loneliness after so much life and love and and bustling around you is just

yeah something I that hurts my feelings to think about um all right let's let's talk about your

your scene carl us let's see the clip the ship of the seasis is an artifact in the museum

of a time its planks of wood rot in a replaced with new planks when no original plank remains

is it still the ship of the seasis secondly if those removed planks are restored and reassembled

free of the rot is that the ship of the seasis neither is the true ship both are the true ship

well then we are agree a just an incredible incredible scene this is one of the not the only but one

of the things I was referring to earlier when I said the finale is not my favorite but it has

some of my favorite scenes I mean this is one of my favorite scenes and not just the series but

the MCU it's amazing look I mean could it be on the like which stuff go from from the beginning

of the pot could it be more for us work Greek mythology nerds were philosophy nerds work TV

nerds this is basically like crack for us one of the best I mean the Paul Bettany performance is

wonderful across the board this is just to get to be doing two versions of the character you know

part of what we love so much about Loki obviously the idea of variants different versions of

yourself there's some of that here and um that's really fun but in terms of what is actually at

the core of this discussion it is what makes me who I am yeah right and so vision is interrogating

that throughout the season with Wanda and it will come up again with Darcy yes exactly it'll

come up at the end of the finale in a scene that'll be coming up in in some of our superlives so

we'll save it for for for then but in a very emotional and intense moment there's something

interesting about being able to ask a version of yourself that question though right who am I what

am I what makes me me the ship using the ship of the sea is to ask this because it's like literally

the question of well is it about the body who has the body is it about who has the memories or the

memories the rot you know look in the conversation that continues um it's just like a really kind of

intellectually rigorous and rewarding way to have the character parse this and it is a much like

Wanda is on a journey of asking who she is and wants to be and think she can be absent the person

she loved most in the world and now if he's gone and inability to share her life with him and

if the kids that she created are gone and inability to share her life with them visions asking

himself a version of that question right you know I have not retained memories but you do have the

data it's merely being kept from you I love the as that scene plays out but certainly you are the

true vision for you believe yourself to be and how quickly we go from one white vision comes in

you know we get the stinger the hayward the stinger at the end of episode eight and then white

vision just blasting his way into the scene you know putting his hands on Wanda's face in the finale

and then trying to crush her skull it's so disturbing right away and then the vision that Wanda

created comes in and attacks himself like this is a fat kind of fascinating from the word go there

inside of the the finale my programming direct directive is to destroy the vision that is what

haywords reconstituted vision says to a version of himself the version of himself that is

many MCU fans at home would be saying more truly vision because he does though he as he says to

Wanda I don't remember my life before this but he's born out of Wanda's memories of the life

that they shared right so there's something like truer and pure because it is connected to mind

and heart and soul and experiences even though he's not in possession of all those facts and so

that response to the shift from I'm here to my director is to destroy the vision to like wait

who is the vision but certainly you're the tri-vision for you believe yourself to be and then our

vision Wanda's vision is response that by saying that was once the case but upon meeting you I have

been disabused of that notion so they're like shifting perspective in real time and it's just kind

of brilliant and it positions us as such a fascinating because then white vision uh you know we'll

tap to the no longer the mind stone obviously there was some some phantom centric plot there yeah

the little little gem plate that the vision that Wanda created uh touches activates all of the data

that's still inside we see all these flashes we hear all these moments and then our guide just like

shoots off through the skylight into a new show so that's where we're by vision will return in 2026

exactly that's uh the line the line that you alluded to perhaps the rot is the memories the

wear and tear or the voyages the wood touched by the you see some self absolutely gorgeous writing um

I think something that I love rewatching the season and thinking about vision quest is like

the detective vision aspect of it the way that like vision a construct created by Wanda

is nonetheless like so vision himself that he is questioning the reality around him and investigating

and you know the Halloween episode especially just sort of like lying to Wanda and slipping off so

that he can like get to the bottom of what's going on um in that scene with with Darcy uh you know

talking about his origins right an episode eight he says so if I understand correctly my original

code dates back to an AI called Jarvis shout out Jarvis but my corporeal form was born of Ultron's

plan for global global genocide Darcy says correcto and he says what am I now and Darcy says

honestly I'm a STEM type of lady so I thought she just flipped a switch in your head and brought

you back to life but what I don't get is why you can't leave the hex what do I what I do know

is I've been watching one division for the past week and the love you two have is real you belong

together so like what is the most real thing about this fabricated uh being his emotion like his love

you know there's just so many fun little like throwaway jokes inside of this you know like

talking about he talks about his nerves of steel Wanda says like my husband is indestructible

head you know what I mean we get the whole like gum in the works like all these reminders of like

what a piece of machinery vision is but at the end of the day it is that emotion and that emotional

appeal that he makes to himself when they have that when the white vision and and our vision let's say

or Wanda's vision let's say um have this conversation and and the white vision's like

like request clarification you know they're having just this sort of like

highly intellectual philosophical debate but the but the actually progresses really quickly from

yeah yeah my my my mission is to destroy you too I did to think about this or like

you know I I need to find find a life of my own and so visions inherent curiosity and the fact that

inside of these three mysterious um mystery box sort of shows Wanda vision Agatha all along

vision quest we presume vision quest um that there are like there has to be detective figures right

like sort sort on the outside of the hex trying to figure out what's going on but vision on the

inside trying to figure out what's going on Agatha and teen Billy both trying to figure out something

about what's going on inside of that and so for like vision and Tommy inside a vision quest to be

like what's what's the truth here what's going on here what's the reality uh and then we as the viewer

are along for the ride but just vision as a detective and like Paul Bettany in his very like

debonair british uh sort of way being being the voice of that kind of detective figure uh is

really animating and exciting um but the fact that like the biggest mystery that he has to solve

his himself and his own nature is like great to show would you say that the the best answer to uh

a mystery is a person is a person yeah I would say the only thing worth writing about is

conflict inside the android heart at the end of the day so oh man just great shit um I love

there's that little you know what an attempted zinger from Agatha oh not like you're acting your

boyfriend yeah who you get to choose yeah and the thing I love about it is not just that Agatha rules

obviously but that it's uncomplicated initially actually the answer to that question even though

the physical form of her love her soulmate a soulmate who we saw in the penultimate episode in the memories

just the heart wrenching moment where she you know she's infiltrated sword and then is a standing

above him maybe this will come up in another category so I won't talk about it too much but

there he is and it's no question the excerpt the boyfriend because the boyfriend is the vision

who has a sense of granted the one that she provided and only the one that she provided but a sense

of a life shared right the physical the physical form does not have that but the second that he

does even though he doesn't have that full context and full connection to he just has the

unearthed data and now as you know the journey is to seek the rest of it the second that changes

and he is in possession of those connections of that tether to wanda and to that to not only their

history with each other but our history to him uh with him then like that change the math changes

then we would not know what we would no longer want anything to happen to him we need him to escape

we need him to go and he has his own spin on yeah into his spin off into that detective journey and

into hopefully that clarity that will allow him to be present um hopefully for for you know for

billion Tommy and maybe wandov she returns script I think what's devastating about um what's so

devastating about that white vision his hands on the side of her face and then going from a loving

caress to a crunching uh motion is like so this idea of wandah has created from her own grief and

sorrow and heart and mind and chaos magic uh this vision shaped husband uh who loves her is asking

questions now but but who fundamentally loves her and and believes that she's good believes in her

goodness uh because this is something that wandah has wrote you know like in civil war she's like

locked up for her own good and it's only like hawkye who's like actually like come with me you know

what I mean this question of like am I good has been at the core of wand his character from the moment

we met her inside of the MCU and so there's the vision that she created that is like you're good

worthy I love you I want to marry you I want to build a life with you I want to kiss with you so

like and then like here's the quote unquote real vision and he shows up and he's like you're a monster

do you know and it's just sort of like even though he is not in possession of all the facts or all

the memories what's true is that in some by some definitions he's the quote more real one and he has

identified her as the enemy and how heartbreaking and devastating that is um I'm so excited for

uh white vision to get closer and closer to the vision that we know and love I don't know how close

he'll be when we find him in at the beginning of the show like you know it's been a while or has

it I don't know we'll find out we don't know the bby's on this one yet so yeah that's right we don't

yeah all right should we go to our categories yeah this will be fun we're calling these the wand

a wows um our quest has been made from our production team that um we

set up these clips in the order that they are the dock which means selfishly I will always be

going first and it's not because I'm in polite but because it is logistically easier so we're

going to start with best sexual innuendo and we're going to start with my clip play it Carlos

you are incredible darling I know you have a secret thing from mexican wrestlers

we boost them all child

jade com carne oh boy is that an innuendo I don't know who's to say but uh I just uh I remember actually

so yeah it is before I worked here I made like a super cut of like all the horniest moments uh from

one of his and put it so I like I knew every single one of these was road match because I am not

built for video editing and so it took me a million years to make this super cut um but that's my

of all the darlings and there are many yeah that's my favorite because it's like the most sort of like

snorled and um I just you know he's he's actually in the moment kind of trying to distract her so that

he can get out of there and like go do his detective work uh but it still really works for me

they're in their dumb Halloween costumes which is you know their canonical comic book costumes

that's right um I just I just love that moment so I want it in here

the comic accurate costumes this is like a delightful little little aspect of that episode

I love how horny those two are for each other you know there's the fun little like um granted

it's in a pretty active gaslighting stretch for for Wanda um toward vision but when she's like

you know vision it's not it's not agnus is the fault that she has an unusually active libido and

it's like these you know Wanda vision I mean one of the great moments early in the season the separate

beds you know when we're in that decade and then the uh using the magic to oh let's push those

beds together and then whoa one cover and then they just uh crawl in and come and fuck because

they're horny for each other it's great in that in that uh same episode with Agatha

when the babies are crying and he's like uh come on lads I'm gonna get my leg over

I get my leg over get your leg over is like one of my favorite Britishism but like yeah he's just

sort of like anyway uh what's your what's your clothes so good uh what are you wearing what are you

wearing also also wonderful what are you wearing yeah while there are no no shortage of of

Wanda envision horny moments to pick from I felt pretty confident that you would pick a moment

between this two and I have gotten a radically different direction Carlos can we uh we see my clip

careful to stick a big red oh hold on there a second did you hear the man he doesn't eat food

is gum food well my understanding is that it's purely for mass education oh no I don't do that

this is just a hysterical moment the big red scene at the neighborhood watch episode two uh

mass education masturbation oh no I don't do that from her but my guy herb hysterical a lot of

interesting and very compelling performances from the the town folk and their roles herb is one of

my favorites uh the Phil Jones quite good Bev is that how mirrors work cannot be denied hysterical

but her herb is just I absolutely love him and uh oh oh now I don't do that it's just hysterical

kills me every time on this uh on this tack you've taken which is this sort of like I don't know

sort of uh sixth grade boy tack I will I will say um Ralph boner saying yeah boner

he had to his own name is a really top tier moment incredible stuff he just like boner he had his

own name that's incredible uh fun to think of how many times across his life he must have done

exactly every day every day it was like he's just sort of like my name's Ralph boner boner he had

like whatever he had or maybe um that's a great one on the runner up front I'll also toss out

same in the same episode the same same same same stretch from my my clip episode two of the neighborhood

watch scene when uh vision says he he kind of fucks up for a second says he doesn't eat right and

then he covers by saying I mean I don't eat between meal times at meal times on a regular eating

machine I'm putting that in the innuendo category and you should and you should and wonder

other stuff yeah um all right favorite fake commercial this is one of the just kind of in general

because we haven't talked about these yet this is just one of those little touches in the show

that makes me love it so much it not only kind of heightens that we're watching a sitcom we're

watching a broadcast but obviously it connects to the it's a broadcast that is rooted in wandas

history and wandas life right so the fact that like wandas subconscious is fueling this and so

you know the the stark industries aspect of the the toast mate because of the stark bomb in

psychovia or those the strucker watch because of the strucker the hydro sigil the experimentation

with the sepja the logos brand house all of it that's just it's just great it's like just a great

idea whoever had that idea could grasp you it's wonderful my pick is the hydro soak from episode three

we see these little scenes of chaos on the hold front the spills the burnt food a dog pissing

in the highland in the kitchen tough tough stuff and then the voice do you need a break

you read my mind come with me escape to a world our your own where your problems float away

when you want to get away but you don't want to go anywhere hydro soak find the goddess within and then

we see luxury bath powder um one of the better clues actually to like what west new is and what exactly

is happening here and with that hydra tie to to wandas past and also i think we're just both very

much in a like shout out comforting bath spot vibes so absolutely yeah um my concern of episode seven

it is the nexus antidepressant commercial this is the episodes of episode seven breaking fourth

wall uh wandas is completely unraveled she's just like inner gym jams uh you know direct addressing

the camera talking about how she's unraveling and then we get like a classic antidepressant commercial

um nexus because the world doesn't revolve around you or does it um and uh the joy of getting like

that's one of those like comic book easter egg moments because you know wandas is a rare nexus

being inside of the MCU and uh this idea that like there's a version of her that exists in all realities

uh or she can bend reality uh around her and all the sorts of like that uh but getting to explain

to people what that means why what nexus why nexus is important why this is like a fun comic book

illusion um i really like that one my runner up for like best accurate commercial vibes

i think the yo magic yogurt from episode six which is like a claymation shark uh sort of commercial

a real sort of like juicy fruit kind of like fruit by the foot uh like real early 90s um aimed at

children kind of commercial perfect vibes loved that one as well that's that one is so upsetting

it's so good so good um all right best agatha is um this is a rich category malar what have you chosen

so can you define this for me exactly is this like one of her kind of like quirky turns of free

is just an opportunity to honor anything about agatha like any agatha line is available to you okay

okay so i mean i we've already talked about it but just to say again any like agatha category

it's got to go to the agatha all along song and reveal at the end of episode seven which is just

historic unbelievable um but since we've already kind of covered that i oh my god like you said

it's a rich text there are so many so many fields i i want you to go first because i can't i can't

quite pick i have like kind of comic contenders and then sort of like intense contenders and

it's difficult this is kind of like a the equivalent of buffy where i'm kind of like i have like

10 finalists what do i do actually think i only have five finalists i tried to show some

restraint but it's really difficult here do you have a chair winner i think and though this is

this is part of the agatha all along song i think and i killed sparky too as the sort of button on

that song is maybe my pick it's either that or actually did bite a kid once direct address to the

camera um that's very good and all of and i will say for caffin hawns performance is just

utter perfection heaven on earth throughout this entire show obviously yeah but the episode

episode seven where she gets to direct address the camera she's just on another level good at it

and um so all of her lines from from that sequence um but i i will give it to and i killed sparky too

from agatha all along my top contenders are also from episode seven on the um more comic but also maybe

like an agatha ism uh uh front like something that just feels particular to how she speaks in the

show and this is like she she has come over um and found you know a very beleaguered

oh wand on offer to take the twins and then we get the direct to camera i think i got here in the

nick of time because she was one split end away from god on things incredible agatha line just the

way she says it i don't know i every wound that part so many times just be like what is it that

caffin hawne does here that is so funny i don't know she's perfect it's absolutely incredible on the more

intense harrowing front and we hear this line from the quote unquote producer in that episode we

don't realize you know till later in the reveal i always have just loved this the do you think this

is maybe what you deserve is just such a savage savage moment um couple of the runners up

because one of the kind of three lines is referencing Ralph and like eluding to this marriage that

they share that is obviously fictitious i think my favorite on that front is from episode one the only

way Ralph would remember our anniversary is if there was a pure name to choose second i'm just a

sterical that's just a sterical um i quite like an episode eight got close with fake pH row

pho if you will it's like she's not guessing just amazing um and then i think the one more i'm always

like this is just a fucking bar this character is instantly undeniable to perform as a god tier

also from episode eight uh wanda here's the twins goes outside and sees agatha kind of holding them

on the magical leashes it's the you know you have no idea no idea how dangerous you are you're supposed

to be a myth and being capable of spontaneous creation sequence but the specific line and here you are

using it to make breakfast for dinner unbelievable um withering and incredible i ever i ride for

breakfast for dinner let me just say that i love delicious dinner but so i'm i'm gonna hit you

with a couple more uh when she make when she's mocking wanted she goes whoo on my children that

accent really comes and goes doesn't it like making fun of the psychovian accent coming and going

incredible stuff really good writing really well delivered my thoughts are not available to you

tuts uh the use of tuts as like a through line but like my thoughts are not available to you is really

good um that macrame is not gonna hitch itself yeah really and then she like dings the bell on

our bike really really good um his mother's cuckoo for coca-puffs and then he had the lavender line

that you mentioned earlier but lavender is supposed to have a calming effect Ralph so it sprays it on

me every night but there's no taming this tiger which is like in a head to toe lycra uh so funny

really good agatha what an incredible creation um all right best classic tv reference this is also

a rich text as far as i'm concerned but you know you go you go first there what uh what's your pick

if i had to pick one thing uh here's one that i don't think i recognize at the time um but i

believe to be true when she throws a car at wand at like one and one and agatha are fighting and

agatha reveals that she can like absorb wandas powers so just hitting her with a blast of powers

not gonna do one any good so instead she throws a car at her uh you know we get like a sort of

classic wicked witch of the west like the boots are under the car so like that but the car goes

into the house which is a plotline on full house so i choose to believe that this is a reference to

the time that uh i believe it was Stephanie drove a car into the tanner kitchen in full house

that's why i choose to believe that that's a reference to um um i have other issues but that's my

my winner yeah uh they're really given you like their money's worth on the on the product placement

and dorshan front there with the the use of that car um so boy you know like you said just a

a loaded field and a rich text here i i think we're broadly just you know we've been kind of talking

about this all pod but the how fulfilling it is when we uh get into the the pedals but the

previously on episode and we go through the memories and we realize like the role that these sitcoms

had in in wandas life we you know we see that moment with like young pho and always sitcom sitcom

sitcom and we learn about like watching american tv and the family learning english and like the

dick van dyke show in the hole in the wall like even outside of all of the other box sets in the

briefcase like wandas favor kept in a special place and then obviously the scene we already talked

about the grief scene with wandas vision and you know she's watching in the hydro um uh the stretch

before that she's watching uh brainy bunch and then she's watching macamund middle so like that's

all great obviously all of the like um not just what decade is the the decade match inside of each

episode in the shows that they're you know alluding to it got episode one i love lucid dick van dyke episode

two but which i dream of genie i found the but which one particularly satisfying post acatha actually

given everything and agatha about like flying on broo six and like you know all that like it was

kind of fun to have that come back up episode three the brainy bunch all in the family etc um i want

to shout out darsie for a second here because in episode four you know we're not getting another

wandas sitcom vision we're kind of we're panning out and we're connecting the dots we're tying

or we're tying all these little strands together when darsie says the next time she's watching dishes

because she's like don't be a radio there right the next time she's watching dishes which by my

account happens about once an episode bar just incredible little dig and like the role of the

the home maker and the old sitcoms etc we built her an episode five of growing pace full house

family ties how can i not shout it out because i am named after malarie if you're getting

from family dies i've got to shout it out episode six malcom in the middle we're getting into more of

like the i know i was actually never a malcom in the middle watcher but we need more of the you know

but ultimately my favorite in terms of just the structure of the episode of wand division and how it

connects to the reference the illusion is the modern family episode seven i just think that's the

the best i i really love the direct to camera confessional so where we find wand done as you know

an act of that in that episode so that's my pick but it is just i guess given what we learned about

the dick van dyke family history that's like that and i just recommend the middle one like feel

so meaningful i don't know this is a spoiler for my pick for favorite episode which we will talk

about later but like episode one is actually my favorite because oh i was like which is a weird

choice i think but like i was so into the dick van dyke show that to like watch something

that was so beat for that's that episode is the most beat for beat let's recreate like a classic sick

complot and so to watch that was just so enjoyable to me but yeah the the the intro where he like

carries over the threshold through the chair as an illusion to like dick van dyke show him like

tripping over the ottoman is like so good in the bewitched episode uh at one point when she's like

irritated with dotty she like does this face where she sticks her tongue out which is like a perfect

match for Elizabeth Elizabeth Montgomery and bewitch sticking her tongue out this set deck right

the like the Brady Bunch staircase being there as a family ties staircase being there and in terms

of like the opening credits uh or like the or or or the evolution of of TV that happens inside the

episode so like the twin bed to double bed transformation that you already talked about yeah like how

sick on you know like robin lore petri who like have a child sleep in twin beds it's so crazy um

i think lucy and ricky were in twin beds and then later in the same bed like as as time went on

or like something like bewitch which started in black and white and then became in color so like

the fact that that episode like ends with them transforming into color into episode three now in

colors like really fun but in terms of like the different opening credits sequences that they did

i have to shout it out to your namesake family ties because like that opening credits where we get like

the the the growing pains family ties ask like um photos of them when they were younger so you get

like baby vision which is just so funny because of course there never was a baby vision a vision

dressed as Santa the Easter Bunny and a turkey while like holding the twins and looking exasperated

so funny um the lyrics nothing can phase me because you're in my heart is like so good and then it's

just like the hook of that song is we're making it up like it's just making it up it's so yeah it's

great good the show rules i love it so much um were you were you a big uh i assume the answer i

not only do i assume the answer yes i feel like we must have talked about this and i just can't

remember through my my my fall right now big nicket nicket night kid you must have done yeah

yeah same oh yeah same yeah donnery mr ed uh you know yeah all of it dick van dyke etc etc i loved

i loved nicket night the best um same wildest slash favorite abandoned theory um you zagd i took the

obvious one carless we play this clip please the devil's in the details bad that's not the only place

he is he couldn't get out one word let alone a whole pitch so i'm trying every tricking the book to

help this woman i'm hot i don't understand what's happening it's my fist oh uh

i would say specifically the stork is mafisto which was one of my favorite uh flavors of the

mafisto theories but just how we were so mafisto pilled that i believe i wrote and i like there are

many things that i'm a barris have my violin on them but one of my most embarrassing is like what

i was theorizing because i think alpachino took like a meeting with kevin feige and so i was like

pachino's playing mafisto write it down it's happening we're getting pachino as mafisto in the season

of want-a-vision uh don't worry we got Sasha bearing code which is the same as pachino as mafisto

initially the people definitely watched um anyway um Molly Rubin uh anything you want to say

about mafisto or you want to move on to your incredible you're i mean you're right obviously that's

the pick i feel like the mafisto theory crash just feels to me like it extends into the basically

every absolute property until we finally got them so um but like i want a vision was the disease

like or it like origin because of the shards that are you know like mafisto is tied to

no no question no no mafisto sorry but like once it started there we just like couldn't let it go

yes we were crazy yeah right the the the the the the the heft of of comics can and i felt like

it like justified and supported the theorizing great clip mash up there um that was that was

just a really fun thing to be living through in real time i the reason that i picked as i

teased earlier when you mentioned the monica um the monica lining question the reason i picked

the engineer is because this to me feels most reflective of we just we all went too far we were

way far we actually didn't like yeah it's just like what why why yeah um so this is the not just

that the engineer was going to be rewitchers but also then the casting extension of that krisen's

king is going to be playing him i would definitely be appearing in the final few episodes of

one division so episode five monica wants to get back into town get back through the hex and says

i know an aerospace engineer who'd be up for this challenge and like the show doesn't actually go

dun dun dun but like kind of like there's like a glint of the eye and uh i felt like that in real time

did it feel like that but looking watching it back i'm like she just doesn't normally i think

but this is like this is the this is the other reason i picked this is like

i love the show i think it's wonderful

that what is that line therefore in that fashion why and then the episode six monica receives the

text and says just got to meet my guy over the bridge right it's happening and then episode seven

they meet monica's source and it's not only not yodgers is keep playing rewitchers which will

get eventually yeah it's major goodness a friend of mine and then and then this like whole truck

that she's billwitch gets destroyed in two seconds and i'm like what are we even doing here man

space space rover that's the thing like the line could just have been

and i think it is difficult at the end of the day to separate this from the Ralph Boehner response

that's also why i picked it because i think there's like a if the line had not been i know an aerospace

engineer and be up for the challenge like do you feel like they were one of my mom's friends can help

yeah you're goodner yeah i i don't think they were trying to make us think rewitchers is going to be

there but like yeah we lost our mind about it really truly yeah of mania but also let's bear

our mind is 2021 and all of our all of our sanity was holding on by a thread you know we were

sure this is just gonna hear a richards because of this one line and obviously like they're

you know power sets and what was happening here and like it wasn't it wasn't an indefensible line

of theorizing it's just like obviously that is not only not what happened it was not a character

of consequence at all so it was such a like so weird wow wow yeah and also yeah at the

storek was just a storek sometimes a storek is just a storek and sometimes uh aerospace engineers

made a good major good nurse so like don't even worry about it all right uh best fit slash fashion

decade malay what's your answer for this shocked myself with my pick here shocked myself because as

you know i'm such a fan of like 60s and 70s fashion and i will say there's some exceptional

nitpolo work from the gents of the neighborhood watch scene an episode two on that front um

and the 80s is it's not my favorite fashion decade but i had to pick it specifically because

the the first couple outfits we see not my favorite when wanda comes out in the plaid button down

like kind of cap sleeve with the high waisted jeans and the suspenders and then vision comes into

the kitchen and he's in this like knit sporty long sleeve polo thing and then agnus comes in

and her jazzer size i'm just like we're cooking we're cooking with gas this is the best that

wand of fit i think is my single favorite fit in the entire season it's just incredible very um

very like uh material girl season three stranger things shopping mall montage vibes with that

look in a way that like is very memorable that high waist i can see it um yeah yeah yeah so i

just think that fit is iconic i love it what about you know did you pick something classic

different decade for each of our three main characters and i will say

provision i'm picking the 60s specifically the striped sweater that he wears in like the second

episode um perhaps in that neighborhood watch uh scene um agnus's jazzer size in the 80s i don't

think there's any beating it it's just perfection and then for wanda i'm going with the 70s the like

pregnancy dress the boots and the long straight hair wig i just think that that is just an incredible

fit and like the the sequence where she and vision are like back-to-back sort of like ready to

to like fight you know and she just has like her like magic hands up in in that fit i just think is

iconic from the show so yeah wand in the 70s really really good stuff great stuff all the hair

journey across all the wigs uh just perfection vision's wigs are a wild journey wanders wigs are

yes wanders specifically so good favorite use of a minor MCU character i'm just going to shout out

Darcy uh my babe looks great in her escape art itself it looks great always is really fun

Jimmy it's fun to see you but i gotta give it to to Darcy it's obviously Darcy i will say i

want to honor Darcy and Jimmy as a pair as well because i think they're they're great together as

we've noted the haired sword stuff in general just not the strongest part of the show um but when

we're with Jimmy shout out close-up magic shout out flourish uh and when we're with Jimmy and Darcy

together like i love in episode four for example as they're puzzling out what is going on um and

they're watching they're watching the broadcast and Jimmy says i can't believe on

division are having a baby the Darcy's like you want any yeah heck i thought it mattered for sure

little Jimmy Wu get him a tiny little FBI badges oh oh the the you mean the truth yeah sure it's

hysterical but yes on the Darcy front from the second i love her i've she's like

you know i love i just love her from the minute we meet her obviously and for me as you know um

you knew you knew you knew you uh house faces you know as much you heard the moments and dark

worlds just killed me um so her's kind of the sass being right back there in that with that energy when

she's coming in with all the other scientists and like trying to to puzzle out their specialties

and that gets the guy like won't answer all of no one cares um right away she's like

is there somewhere a lady can get a cup of coffee you guys look like you might get down with those

little pod things terrible for the environment it's just so good and of course she's the one who

put you she's the one who puts to get like figures out okay the rate the waves and the lines and

there's something else here and i need a tv not one that's flat and it finds the broadcast and

also just on the she recast pH or front the fact that she's such a great avatar for us at home

like trying to figure out what is happening and kind of like feeling that we're giving ourselves

over to it even as our our minds are yeah reason it's just the best she's great she's the best

so the next i will just say this so in the next category is favorite episode that's where i picked

episode one the fact that episode one ends and like somebody's watching and you're like it's

Darcy like that's just that's just wild great stuff uh yeah i already mentioned my episode one's my

favorite um i i don't know i just think one like an exquisite bonkers way to start a tv series just

like we're just gonna do an episode of the dick van Dyke show and and i just i suddenly i think is

underrated inside of this tv show is how good Elizabeth Olsen and Paul Bettany are at the various

modes of sitcom acting and they're just like genuinely like so funny so charming and so capture the

like the the delivery especially for one and like the first couple episodes is sort of like musical

way she has of like reading all of her lines um i just i think they're extraordinary so i i

i gotta give to episode one what's your what's your pick i love it um i had an incredibly hard time

with this category which obviously is a testament to the show i think there are a number of

of eligible episodes uh episode three is not my pick to be clear but just wanted to shout out

because we haven't hit it yet um the end of episode three you know that old tron moment with

Monica Geraldine and Wanda and then casting Geraldine out of the hex and one of the trucks

and the choppers and the lights and the modern tech bade the scene and daydream believer kickset

i just remember so vividly watching that and being like this is amazing this show is amazing um so

the ending of that one and as you noted the beginning of episode four with Monica returning

these are just really memorable sequences um and i do think episode four overall is like really

good actually but i can't just feel right to pick an episode that like isn't a prime pair

Wanda and version episode so i have three contenders episode five episode seven and episode eight

all of which are bangers just bangers episode five on a very special episode we've already talked about

the uh appearance of epipeders at the end of that episode but that's also just the twins right

they're here they're aging up sparky who already mentioned um on the sparky front like i just really

am always odd by the scene when the boys are grieving sparky and they ask Wanda to bring him back

and she is able to give them wisdom and counsel that she cannot heed herself

donate yourselves up the urge to run from this feeling is powerful i know it's too sad you can fix

anything mom fix the dead what no you can do that i'm trying to tell you that because there are

rules in life we can't rush aging just because it's convenient and we can't reverse death no matter

how sad it makes us okay some things are forever and then there's the bring him back bring who

and the kids are talking about sparky but then vision walks up like that scene is just amazing

and i love that it shows us that Wanda understands that and has that clarity but that is not the same

as being able to do it yourself right it's just great um this is also the episode episode five where

Wanda reveals herself to sword and that's just a really intense sequence and a really good one

i have what i want no one will ever take it from me again and that's the stretch or vision

suspicion has been mounting but it really reaches a fever pitch there so that's i just that's a great

episode like i don't know that it stands out quite as clearly in our minds as you know previously on

or some of the others but it's really really strong um episode seven we've already talked about a lot

the the modern family one the breaking the fourth wall that that's when you know we get that do

you think this is maybe what you deserve line that's the your quiet agnus on the inside line that's

the don't have make you the villain maybe i already am and that's agnitha all along like we've talked

about all the things that make that episode great it's really excellent that's probably my favorite one

previously on we've already talked about a lot the memory episode it's just awesome like it's just

awesome there's a way for an episode like that to really not work i feel like it is stagnating the

the the format yeah halting the forward momentum and almost like okay well we had to all in one

place kind of like fill in all these missing spaces and like make sure we had covered our bases and

it just doesn't feel that way at all it feels not only inside of this show but something like the oh

the mind so didn't give wander her power you know the clarity like it the the line from agatha amplify

what otherwise would have died on the vine obviously something comics fans have been talking about

free here's at that point there's a lot of just satisfying connective tissue there um so that's

a great one yeah i five seven and eight are like basically neck and neck i i think i'll pick seven but

it is close sorry it's less guess what it's a great show really is um funniest moment what do you have

i have a i have a duo here but they're connected um i'll explain why though it'll probably be

clear carless you've already talked about one of them carless can we see this what happened to your

accent what happened to yours details are fuzzy man i got shot like a chump in the street for no

reason at all and next thing i know i heard you calling me i knew you needed me where my children

where are my children woof that accent really comes and goes doesn't it so good sorry i'm so sorry

that i stepped on that earlier no no it deserves to be celebrated as often as possible i am calling

this the double ultra did yeah i what the gratitude i felt in both of these moments now to be fair

during agatha we talked we've talked elsewhere about like actually wander moving in and out of

first to kovian accent there's like a really kind of heartfelt way to look at that but i i really

got a kick out of the yeah the joke from agatha there calling back to the psychofian accents the

phoetro clip there also obviously connects to the accent stuff but i got shot like a chump

in the street for no reason at all is to me one of the most important moments in the history of the

fc you because as i have talked about for hours on fucking and on ranger podcasts

pho in age of ultra is one of the most baffling randlings of a character to me and i say that as

as you know one of the leading airtale johnson enthusiasts there is no way that that should have

happened should air and should air air and tele johnson do you just say air and roger's did you

just say air and tele johnson air and tele johnson why did i hear you say air and roger's in my head

for some reason i know i knew you were talking about obviously um uh

will air and tele johnson get one more crack at playing a superhero and really good i support it

okay i i i are you implying that craven wasn't good yeah i'm not perfect moving i don't accept it

what could have been better nothing um i would just say that's that's my that's my double that's my

i would just say everything everything that ralf does as p hro is really funny to me um so the

the halloween episode i actually really really like and then um and then drunk drunk vision from

episode two drunk because there's chewing gum in in the works i think is is really fun so yeah i

love that i don't know why this stands out to me so much too but my runner up is the um on the

store front shout out my fisto not not specifically that entire sequence so that is obviously all like

amusing it is when the store comes back around it is be creatures just grab the fish on

Geraldine's pants yeah it is a sterile it's very good sterile

oh yeah all right to wrap up we have most emotional moments i'm gonna go first with something you

started to talk about but then you saw maybe a look at my face and you stopped talking about it so

let's watch it

just devastating just absolutely devastating guess what Elizabeth Olson is a great actress

uh she's very very good rules uh that's absolutely when she kind of does but doesn't break into

sword she's like a lot to go back but then she just does it kind of dramatically so it looks bad

on footage but um you know and then she's like

Tyler being a piece of shit and being like uh he doesn't belong to you he belongs to the

government all sort of like that anyway um yeah just just her her psychic abilities but not but

there's nothing there's no there there inside of the pieces of the body of the person that she

loved more than anything else devastating really bad yeah that is just so heart wrenching

I agree the performance there is is really beautiful and and of course like the the connection and

that you know to the callback to those moments um in infinity where you know the i just feel you

from the version that we got from both of them the Edinburgh stretch the uh Wanda kind of i

that just feel you you know the kind of calming nature and then the uh the grace and the forgiveness

and the permission from vision and that faithful moment you know i just feel you and sort of call

to call back to that to kind of adds that extra real wall up to the if i

have the opportunity to ask Paul Betney anything i think i would ask him which of his vision deaths

was his favorite because he's had so many um who's died the most in the MCU is it Loki is it

vision who who who's done it the most number of times hmm i'm just gonna put that out there sure

i don't know the answer but it might be vision hmm oh trying to think back to like

all of the different things we saw in like Deadpool and Wolverine and the strange

strange I don't know anyway uh what's what's your answer well i know what your answer is here

give it to me i have a clip as well let's uh let's see it Carlos

but before i go i feel i must know

what am i

you vision are the piece of the mind stone that lives in me

you are a body of wires and blood and bone that i created you are my sadness and my hope

the mostly your my love you are my sadness and my hope but mostly your my love is so

heart-wrenching and beautiful i'll be gonna start saying that to you whenever i can um that scene is

gorgeous that's what i already said that's like people might not know that at home but you just

texted to me on the regular it's true but now they know now it's now it's canon because i'm like

that's one of the like you know finale not my favorite but that scene is just gorgeous the battles

over the vision has said i know you'll set everything right just not for us and want to

said no not for us and we have this clarity and we're building toward it and they say

goodbye talk the boys in for bed she saved the shire but not

exactly exactly um

boys thanks for choosing me to be your mom

for our wrenching and then we go down to the living room and Wanda is turning off the lights

and then vision turns one back on and he says just wanted to see you clearly and she says

end like with you know because what what does it look like to see what does it mean to see

want to clearly right and there you are and then we get that exchange that we just saw and i

loved how it called back to a version of that conversation that was so seated that was was

an argument in episode five before what i can't remember my life before west you i don't know

who i am i'm scared and want to say you are my husband your autonomy and billy's father

isn't that enough and he was he was it's not that being in their family wasn't enough it's that

he didn't have a sense of the truth right and so to be able to call back to that with period of

withholding and have this just be about a complete sense of truth and understanding and shared

embrace it was so so so sad and then we build toward this is really you know heading into the new

show obviously even even more wonderful to revisit i've been a voice with nobody a body but not

human and now a memory made of real who knows what i might be next we've said goodbye before so it

stands to reason we'll say hello again i mean that's maybe the answer to your question earlier about

like it is i don't know that's a promise isn't it it's a promise we're watching that scene

i was like they have they don't have to let's hold it loosely let's hold it loosely nothing is

promised let's listen might be like i don't want to do it but i'd really like it if we got a scene with

if she shows up with finale that would be great i agree um that is our tour back through one

division i had a great time we were gonna watch it anyway to prepare for vision quest but now we

got to celebrate it together um i'm really really really really really really really hope it's

good excited for vision quest uh so we will be starting our coverage of that show they're doing a

funky little like two episode here in their drop um you know like the first two two two one

one one yeah five weatress and treating it to spend with vision quest but we were really excited

for that show so we will start our coverage of that next week hop at some dragons at gmail.com

thank you to our hex our the the the residents of our bubble it's Carlos Sherboga it's Jacob

Kornet it's Jimmy Adina Ron it's our Gina Regapal it's you Mallory Rubin it's me doing a Robinson

i don't know i haven't seen Scott lead today but perhaps got lee will we work in the sub-zone uh thank

you to all of them and we will see you back inside visions mind palace next week bye

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