‘The Social Reckoning’ Is No ‘The Social Network,’ and the Top Five Most Unnecessary Legasequels. Plus: The Best Movies at NYFF!

I'm Sean Fennese.

I'm Amanda Davin.

And this is the big picture a conversation show about reckoning with the socials today

on the show.

Amanda and I face our greatest fear.

No, not the crushing toll of our own mortality.

I'm talking about a sequel to our beloved social network.

Aaron Sorkin's sequel to social reckoning arrived some 16 years after his first film with

David Fincher as the director.

This time Sorkin is in the director's chair for a follow-up story about Mark Zuckerberg,

whistleblowers, and the ghastly impact of social media in our lives.

So does it work?

We'll break it all down along with a brief history of the best and worst legacy.

But first I will report on the very best movies at the New York Film Festival and some movie

news.

It's all coming up right after this.

Observe the North American dad.

50s.

Great polo collection.

He enters his vehicle information on Carvana and offers appears in minutes.

Remarkable.

He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer.

The highest form of approval.

No haggling.

No hassle.

No one called him boss.

He's still on the couch.

Astonishing.

Sell your car today on Carvana.com.

Pick up these may apply.

OK, Amanda.

It's the big picture after dark.

It's 7.16 pm.

That's right.

We are recording.

There are very few events, let alone movie releases that we would do this for, that

we would record at night.

But we hadn't seen the social reckoning.

You were kind enough to wait to see it with me.

It was only right that we see it together.

Yeah.

And I was in New York, so you waited.

I wasn't going to do it alone.

We watched it together.

We will break into it shortly.

Before we do, we discussed this a bit on Monday, but Skydance, the flag is flying high,

waving proudly, strongly.

Will you salute it?

Do you have one at home?

Skydance flag?

Yeah.

OK.

I mean, we'll see what kind of cinema they may.

Right.

In my neighborhood, it's the American flag, the McDonald's flag, and then the Skydance flag

right in a row, flying over Los Angeles.

There's three absolute pillars of capitalism right there.

A lot of news coming out.

You can listen to a great many podcasts to listen to.

Who's been brought in to fire people and how the money is going to work and the $75,

$79 billion in debt getting paid down.

I'm only interested in the movies.

What movies are they going to make?

Yeah.

Tell us.

Here's the movie news that we've gotten.

One, Transformers is coming back.

Congratulations.

Not only is it coming back, Steven Spielberg is coming back.

Steven Spielberg, of course, one of the producers of the original stretch of Transformers

films with Michael Bay.

No director yet attached.

Michael Bay rumored to maybe be returning.

We don't know.

There have been two Transformers movies without Michael Bay.

They've tried to relaunch the franchise once with Bumblebee.

You saw that one.

Haley Seinfeld.

Yep.

No.

Okay.

So the trailer.

Pretty good.

Okay.

Pretty good.

I like her.

The other one was Transformers Rise of the Beasts.

Didn't see that one.

Is that animated?

Across over.

Not animated.

Steven Capel directed that one.

Director of Creed II.

Not very good.

And yet I liked it.

No one else did though.

So they got to reboot again.

Okay.

Will you see how many Transformers movies have you seen?

I saw the first one and I think I saw the one that I want to call Dark Side of the

Moon that is not of course Dark Side of the Moon.

What is its actual title?

Dark of the Moon?

Sure.

Yeah.

That probably just sailed right.

Can we get a factor of all the looking on that?

Yeah.

So I've seen that one.

Is that the JFK one?

That is.

Yeah.

Well obviously, you know, the first dark of the moon.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's what I thought.

So that's two dark side of the moon.

Have you heard that album?

Yeah.

No, we haven't done that yet, but maybe we should do that in our house.

Yeah.

Oh, don't get bring the whole family in.

But I think they didn't do it.

Spark a J. See what happens.

Could be exciting.

Will you watch this one?

Will we still be podcasting?

Is there a timeline?

Is it before or after June 2028, which is currently the end date?

That was a big picture.

Are we stuck?

A fairly fair question.

I don't know.

OK.

I mean, maybe we maybe just a private conversation between us about

Transformers.

When the show is over, will we have private conversations about films?

I'm not really sure.

OK.

I'm not sure.

Oh, sounds like we do.

We do.

We save a lot for the pod.

But every once in a while, we break containment.

OK.

The other film that is coming back is GI Joe.

OK.

There have been a few GI Joe movies under the Paramount umbrella.

In fact, I don't think I've seen all them.

I've seen maybe one in one.

Were you a GI Joe, OK?

Well, I certainly was.

Thanks for asking.

OK.

How could you not be growing up as a boy in the 1980s?

Now, was it above he men and masters of the Masters of the Universe?

No.

Was it above Star Wars?

No.

Was it above Transformers?

No.

But GI Joe was right there.

Paramounts got all my childhood

interests right under its wing there.

Danny McBride writing this movie?

Yeah.

I'm philosophically opposed to GI Joe and also definitely

to Skydance making more GI Joe.

Do you like films?

At the same time, Danny McBride is perfect for it.

Yeah.

Will they let him be subversive enough

within the containment of GI Joe?

Also, how subversive would he want to be?

Well, an interesting question by you.

I don't, you probably know this, but you may not.

Especially since it's October, and we

are talking a lot about Halloween.

Danny McBride co-wrote the three Halloween movies

that David Gordon Green directed.

So those movies are actually quite subversive

to the Halloween or especially the third one.

So we know, and that that movie was not pretty well received,

but we know that he's willing to fuck with Canon.

Sure.

We'll Skydance let him.

I don't know.

What he will do is he will cast Bradley Cooper as Duke.

That's also funny.

The field commander of GI Joe.

Is it funny?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Is it okay?

I'm open, you know, he's in Paris.

I think he's probably married.

I don't know.

Have you followed this?

Did he and Gigi, he did are walking around with rings

on their wedding fingers?

Congratulations.

Okay.

They've been in Paris.

He's been working out in Paris and also filming

the Ocean's prequel around Europe.

Of course.

So, and as you know, I'm very open to the Ocean's prequel.

Yes.

That's fine.

A film we neglected to mention when we talked about what Warner

Brothers was bringing over in this union with Paramount.

The only franchise that is not announced here that I assume

is coming any minute is Star Trek.

Okay.

Star Trek is one of the biggest things that Paramount has.

Ostensibly, they have a lot of TV shows going right now.

We haven't had announcement of a new movie in a long time.

Is Chris Pine coming back?

Probably not, but maybe.

And he thought.

I liked those movies.

They have a re-release of something going on right now

because there is a giant starship enterprise popcorn bucket

for sale for $80.

Oh, no kidding.

At the Regal Theater, the last time I took my son there.

And so I had to explain both what is Star Trek and what is $80.

Look, a Star Trek re-release reign.

Which one was harder to explain?

Oh, look at that.

Unfortunately, is it not Star Trek?

I'm pretty sure it was Star Trek.

Yeah, I think it was last month when this happened, which passed

to die.

But yeah, I guess all the original films, which are wonderful.

The older couple in front of me jumped into the conversation

for the $80 bit because the man was also forbidden

from buying the starship enterprise popcorn bucket,

which doesn't serve as a popcorn bucket.

I like, we've really...

That's a big problem with a lot of these.

We've lost the plot here.

Okay.

We have the Star Wars Grogu popcorn bucket at home,

but it is a bucket.

It's a helmet.

You know, it's a really good popcorn bucket?

Digger.

It's a cowboy boot.

That's pretty good.

It's a really good idea.

I didn't buy it.

I don't think anyone did.

I ordered them my tickets to that film.

I need you to just hold your breath while I read a bunch

of other Paramount franchise to you.

Okay.

Okay.

Ready, set, go.

Sonic, scream, scary movie, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles,

Smile.

Next year, we get a Quiet Place 3, World War Z 2

with Brad Pitt, Edward Burger, was announced,

New Paranormal Activity with Underton Director Ian Tewison.

Here's three that we've not yet heard new news about.

Are you gonna be okay?

Hang in there.

The Terminator, Beverly Hills Cop, and then wait for it.

I'll let you breathe right after this one.

The Godfather.

Now, there have been three Godfather movies.

How, what was the time on that?

Really, like 17 seconds.

Okay.

So I'm not gonna be a Navy ceiling time soon.

I don't think so.

Skydance is not calling me to be the star of their next film.

I would hate to see it.

There's no news about the Terminator, Beverly Hills Cop,

being rebooted, but if you told,

if someone announced tomorrow

that those two things were happening in theaters,

I would not be surprised.

I write the Godfather cynically,

but just to amuse myself.

Well, I've done it before, the offer,

which I did not watch.

The offer is one version of it.

There was a video game some years ago.

Did you play that?

I never did.

I did.

I was just out of my video game phase,

I think when that game came around.

I don't think the Godfather necessitated

a role-playing experience per se.

But, you know, I get it.

I had a lot of follow-up questions, but okay.

I just, I'm just flagging it.

Because if I was a demon working at Paramount right now,

I would probably be like,

have you guys considered the Godfather?

No, I'm not a demon.

Let's not.

First of all, first of all,

you'll find that it's no longer Paramount at Skydance.

It's the second of all.

Let's not characterize any of the kind people

who are under the mergers.

I said, if I was a demon working at Skydance,

I'm not saying people who work at Skydance are demons.

Nor am I saying, I'm a demon.

I'm merely saying if I were a demon who worked at Skydance.

If I were a demon who is really good at his job,

I would get the Godfather foregoing right now.

Pitch me, keep going, tell me the story.

No, Al Pacino's alive.

Okay.

Let's start there.

Al Pacino's breathing.

That means we can get him on camera as soon as possible.

Al Pacino can be seen at San Vicente, Bangladesh.

Michael's final act.

Any night of the week.

Yes, he's out and about.

He's been going to screenings for the last year.

He's having a great time.

He seems to be in great health and great spirits.

He's a father of a young child.

He's doing great.

Yeah.

Let's get him on camera.

Michael Corleone.

All right.

I got the script right here.

It's a terrible idea.

I hope no one does it.

Okay.

I'm just throwing ideas out there.

That's beautiful.

What's the...

So you read a list of, you know,

upcubbing works of cinema while I held my breath.

Did you think that was funny?

I was just like, like who had a more positive experience?

Me, if not breathing or you,

I'm saying all of those things aloud.

Just called doing the work.

Okay.

This is me sitting quietly alone in my house.

I meant how do they make you feel?

How does it make you feel to see those when you say,

all I care about is cinema.

So now let me talk to you.

I'm just trying to get a snapshot of where we're going.

So you don't feel right now.

You're not, I feel like.

You're not in demon, but you're not also currently feeling.

I'm really excited about Damien Chazelle's prison movie.

So much.

And I hope that there are more movies

that are like that movie that are coming.

But these are the movies that we know are happening.

Yeah.

And, you know, they're probably not the most inspiring things

I've ever heard.

Does what I mean I won't,

could enjoy a screen movie, of course I can.

So could I?

Yeah.

Teenage Mutant Troubles.

That's how it's fun.

That was complicated.

And also especially in terms of who's just bought the company,

but whatever.

Right.

We'll see.

I was, I, I liked a quiet place.

Did I like a quiet place too?

You liked a quiet place day one.

I was okay on it until the end,

which I thought was very silly.

The very last shot in music, you is very silly.

And also like they didn't, and they didn't lock up the fentanyl.

You know, she's just rummaging through the drug store

like you can get anything you want.

Spoilers for quiet place day one.

Well, that's not a spoiler.

Quiet place day one is the third quiet place film,

but it's not a quiet place.

Yes.

Anyway, a quiet place three.

Sure.

I'll give you a good,

though I think that is also what my college reunion is,

which we talked about.

That's right.

That's right.

So it'll just be me and Krizynski,

hosting the call that day.

Tough one for you.

Junior Union.

But, what's this other piece of news I'm seeing out of here?

Sure.

So Taylor Swift, your favorite performer.

We'll be closing the Academy, Cala,

the Academy Museum, Galah.

In October, she's performing there.

It was announced today.

No kidding.

It was just unprecedented levels of campaigning

for a best song Oscar.

I just, I think it's really funny.

I just, just, you have to say right now,

will she win the best original song Oscar?

Yes.

Okay.

Because those,

Sometimes some resistance to the mega star.

Sometimes.

I guess so.

But they've given Billie Eilish at least one.

And I believe two Oscars.

Did she also win for her James Bond?

The guest says she is too.

Well, yeah, she is too.

And she did win for James Bond as well as Barbie.

She took that from Deweleba.

And then they should re-record Skyfall as Skydance, by the way.

Can we get somebody to do that?

Skydance.

Skydance.

This is the most Hollywood.

Skydance.

That's the most Hollywood.

That's the most Hollywood.

That's Skydance.

That's right.

Yeah, that's good.

You, you, you record it.

You do.

Yeah.

We have microphones go.

I just, I, yes, there were a lot of people in the Academy who want to interact with Taylor

Swift.

Right.

Because they want to look cool with their kids.

And that's fine.

Her losing would be very funny.

Well, just, just putting it in there.

Okay.

Anyway, I just, I wanted to know it because this is, this is starting.

Is it really your tending?

No, I haven't been invited.

Okay.

Put it in the world.

Okay.

If you will, it is no dream.

Um, I don't know whether the Academy wants us there, but that's okay.

Uh, okay.

Let's talk about New York.

Forget it.

I lost the endos for a minute.

I spent a week in New York.

Mm-hmm.

I had a lovely time.

Yeah.

I noticed a couple of things.

Great.

I usually spend a longer period of time at the New York Film Festival.

This was a shorter period of time.

Part of it is because there weren't as many movies that I had, felt like I had to catch

up on because I've been to many festivals this year, which is very nice, but it didn't

make for a different experience.

However, one, I met an extraordinary number of young people this year.

And I feel like a lot of young people are attending.

And one of the cool things about the New York Film Festival is you can just buy a ticket.

Yeah.

You can just go online and you can buy a ticket.

And not everything sells out right away.

It's not like many other film festivals in that way.

It is expensive.

It's not cheap to buy tickets.

Right.

So, but if you can afford it, I met a ton of just 20, some things who were like, I'm about

to watch a statement and no one seen it before.

Like, so there's something really exciting about getting to see a movie like that at Alice

Tully Hall in Lincoln Center, Lincoln Plaza.

The other thing that I noticed, and this has been evolving over time.

I'm not sure if you thought about this, but the programming at New York, I'm not sure

if the word is better, but it is evolving.

And I feel like it is siphoning titles from other festivals in an interesting way.

So this year, for example, there was a Godzilla movie, artificial behemoth, a statement,

and the Cameron Winter concert film all premiered at New York.

Their first screenings were at New York, which is fascinating to me because all of those

movies could have, could have ever should have appeared at other festivals in the last 20

years.

Like Godzilla is like a fantastic fest movie or maybe a Toronto movie.

I think a statement is kind of a tell your ad movie.

Cameron Winter, it being a hometown thing.

That's, that one makes a lot of sense.

But it is still a PTA concert doc.

So like you could see that I could have been at Venice.

But he, I don't think wants to go to Venice.

I don't think he does.

Yeah.

And so he has a cozy home and artificial to me is it could have played all three.

It could have played Venice, Toronto, and tell you right?

I do wonder if some of that is just because of the circumstances at which artificial was

supposed to be released by one company at the submission deadlines for all of these

films.

Yes.

And then that deadline passed.

Yes.

And so that this was just sort of the last chance for an unusual circumstances.

But I agree with you.

It could have made us splash anywhere else.

I mean, I do think the fall festivals have been a little, I think people are more skittish

about them after the Joker folia do disaster.

Yeah.

And a couple of things launching a tell your right and doing well, but like not winning.

What's the last best picture winner that tell your right launched?

That's a really good question.

The last best picture.

I mean, they launched moonlight.

Right.

So that's one I can think of.

Maybe the last one that they launched and have to go through the list.

I mean, in the meantime, while I'm looking at that, I believe that is the last one by

that is last year.

Yeah.

I think I'm trying to figure out is it that the New York Film Festival is somehow immune

to the negative feedback loop that can come out of a festival some way.

Because it's a much longer festival.

There's not a lot of travel involved for the American press.

There's a lot of native press that is there.

It's a little bit more.

I don't know how to describe it.

I mean, it's always been a very elegant, tasteful, indie, international kind of festival,

a real art house friendly festival.

That doesn't mean it hasn't had big studio movies over the years, of course, has, but especially

you know, Dennis Limit, the helm of it as a, you know, chief curator.

He's just such an elegant, thoughtful person, you know, introducing all the screenings.

There's a, there's a, there's a quality of class that happens there that does feel different

from some other festivals.

It helps that a lot bunch of the movies I named were pretty good to great.

So maybe that's just a circuit like a coincidence this year.

But it does feel like this is maybe like a smarter play and that people have realized that

some.

I think so.

Yes.

I think it's low risk and thus higher, you know, possible reward.

It is also just a lower ask for all of to get your talent to New York.

Mm-hmm.

Then it is to get them to tell your ride or to Venice at this point.

There's less of a production.

So, you know, if you go and it doesn't really work, it's not a huge downside.

There's not like a giant red carpet.

It doesn't really matter.

The expectations haven't been leveled at least this year for the New York Film Festival.

You know, we'll see in three years whether we're just like, you know, studying the race,

you know, the racing sheet and being like, okay, what's going to go to New York and what

will be the, and then the expectations are upended.

I think all of this, you know, changes because of assholes like us.

It does.

I, behemoth was the one that was a really interesting note.

And then a bunch of movies got stacked on top of it that all kind of felt part of a,

let's talk about these movies briefly.

Okay.

I don't want to like spoil our longer conversations about all of them because maybe

five or six of these movies will get their own episodes, honestly.

But I thought we would start with Artificial because you had the chance to see it while

you were here in Los Angeles as well.

Yes.

So, I've seen, I've seen a fair amount of things.

That is another thing that seems also different about New York versus Telluride and Venice.

I mean, the, both of those festivals, there will be pre-screenings and studios will make

some of the films available for press and others who aren't attending.

But New York, they really make an effort to just bring everyone in all at once, which

I appreciate, but it's interesting.

Yeah, it's not as much of a, they're not fighting with anyone.

Yeah.

It's like the fight is over.

And then once the movie has arrived, it's arrived.

And so then people are free to see them, which is interesting.

It kind of ends, you know, AFI is still to come.

There's a bunch of regional festivals.

Yeah.

New York kind of ends this period in the movie calendar in a way.

Artificial.

Yeah.

I'll tell you briefly about my screening.

Go ahead.

Um, this is one of the last films to premiere at the festival.

I believe 14th, which I did not stick around for the new Ava DuBaron A documentary that

is a follow up to her doc.

The 13th is premiering later this week.

But this was the second and last big one.

This is like Luca Guadagnino's new movie.

It is about the rise to build open AI at the premiere.

All the significant players were there, including Luca, you know, Andrew Garfield, you're a

Borosov, like Baron Holtz, Cooper Hoffman, most of the stars Monica Barbara are not present.

And before the film, Dennis Slim came out and talked about the circumstances of the movie

vaguely about how Amazon had dropped the film and Neon had picked it up.

For reasons that we can presume are related to Amazon's investment in open AI, although

they have said that that is not the case publicly.

And then Lucas spoke very briefly before the film.

He introduced Damon Alburn, a erstwhile frontman of Blur, who composed the score of the movie,

and then Damon Alburn sat down in a piano and sang a song with the children's choir

from the movie to open the festival experience, which was fucking awesome.

It was amazing and beautiful and it didn't really diminish the experience of the song in

the film or anything like that.

It was just a very elegant way to open a very interesting movie.

Yeah.

I thought this movie was excellent.

Yeah.

It played very well in the room and it was clear within about 20 minutes that the

concerns that the movie quote unquote wasn't good and that's why it was dropped were bullshit.

Yeah.

I think there's like a three hour discussion of this movie and Luca and his work to come

here.

But what did you think of it?

I never fucking wave.

Not for one second.

I never wavered.

I told you all.

Stay on the mic.

Stay on the mic.

I did it.

And I cannot wait for everyone else to see this.

I honestly kind of I almost texted everyone on the booth last night to be like, can you guys

go back and find all the tape of me being like, I believe in Luca because I believe in

Luca.

We'll find that.

And my belief had this was this electrifying.

I texted you immediately saying some version of what I just said.

Yeah.

I was vibrating as I left.

I haven't felt this way leaving a movie since I did leaving tar.

Wow.

I just I just really it's I mean, it's so in my wheelhouse.

Obviously, I'm happy to be right.

And obviously there's also there was something exciting as you said, even sitting through

the movie of realizing, oh, no, this is good.

And everything that we suspected about the way this movie was handled is true in one

way or another.

And the movie knows that too.

And it's painting the picture in real time.

So I'm I'm very excited for this to be released.

I'm very excited for the Andrew Garfield press tour.

As I always am.

Fantastic in this movie.

Fantastic.

It may be his best performance.

Yeah.

He has a big favor to ours.

Yeah.

It's it's going to be a thing.

I immediately was like, oh, this is this is like a best picture nominee.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You and I were texting about best picture chances while I was like walking through like

whole foods picking out, you know, milk.

So that's that's where we are with the energy on this one.

It's happening.

My thing about this is just like this is the only movie that's in the lineup this

year that is competing in that race specifically that feels actually urgent.

It feels like it's like the movie ends and you're like, it's like today.

Yeah.

Like it's like we're in the present day, which is very, very hard to capture.

But we'll speak more about it in the future.

Behemoth, you haven't seen Behemoth yet?

Next week.

Okay.

So I don't want to spoil too much about Behemoth.

I wasn't in the room when it played.

I had seen it a couple of months ago, but I did talk to a lot of the people who who saw

it.

I went to an event as soon as the after the film premiered.

All I say about this movie is that it is not what you're expecting is not Michael Clayton

too.

If you go in expecting Michael Clayton too, do not.

I found it to be a much more subtle, emotionally complex movie.

I think it's the best-pager Pascal performance ever.

I think it utilizes what makes him an interesting actor in a way that is unique.

One of the most passive protagonist films I can recall being made at a studio level.

The way that people who followed this movie, which Tony Gilroy's new film has followed

up to the two seasons of Andor, know that it is about a cellist who makes his money

both playing in orchestras as well as performing on compositions for film scores.

Nine different composers, most of whom are very well-known, like James Newton Howard,

Alan Silvestri, so on and so forth, compose music for the movie.

That's a big part of the way that the movie progresses.

I like this movie a lot.

I did take me an hour to realize it was not the movie I was expecting it to be.

I think once I got on its level, I really enjoyed it.

We will have a discussion about that.

That movie comes out December 4.

You did see Naza, right?

I did.

Naza premiered in Venice, but later.

Yes, but towards the end of the festival, so I had left.

I saw it here in Los Angeles.

It did play, I think it played early in the New York Film Festival, and then it had opened

at the IFC Center in kind of an exclusive run.

Now this week, it's opening in Los Angeles.

I think it will start to play across the country over the next few weeks.

This is Yuval Abraham and Rachel Zor, two people who were significantly involved in

No other land.

The film about the West Bank a couple of years ago that was widely acclaimed, though

it was sort of self-distributed because of its the very controversial nature, I suppose,

of the topic.

This movie is executive produced by Jonathan Glazer.

This film portrays in an amazing act of investigative journalism the way that Israeli defense forces

are bombing and attacking Gaza and specifically the way that they are not discerning between

soldiers and war targets and women and children.

The film is basically more journalism than it is movie, though there are significant cinematic

choices that are made in the movie, but it is a series of discussions, which is similar

to another movie that I've seen that I'll tell you about here.

I thought it was quite painful to watch this movie.

Yes.

It's very bracing and the identities of the Israeli military figures who participate

are shaded, their voices are shifted.

There's been a significant outcry about this movie, especially from government officials

in Israel who claim that this is not true and that these people, the filmmakers themselves

that have been suggested that their citizens will be stripped completely and that they will

not be allowed to return to their home country.

What thoughts did you have about this?

I thought it was incredibly effective and compelling and I agree, upsetting to watch.

It is an act of journalism.

It's building on journalism that has been done and I believe that some of that has been

done in the Guardian and so the Guardian is going to help be releasing that Gaza more

broadly.

But some of the journalism for me is, I mean, the interviews themselves are incredibly

upsetting, illuminating and also just hearing someone explain something from their own

experience is always going to be different and impact you in a way that even reading it

in a newspaper article won't.

They have people drawing diagrams.

I'll never forget someone drawing a diagram and trying to recreate what they had done

in their quote-unquote day job.

In a small decision, I thought that the filmmaking choices they make were also quite effective.

And both what you see for the majority of the film and then what you see at the end

without spoiling it too much.

So yeah, I think this is an incredibly important piece of filmmaking and journalism and I was

glad to have been able to see it.

Yeah, it's an interesting demonstration too of how to ask questions and get answers as

a journalist.

And it's interesting that we're talking about this movie on the social reckoning episode

because that's also a component of this.

And not to say that it's wrong or different somehow in the social reckoning, but it's

traumatized.

And this is someone actually attempting to find out the truth about something that many

people don't want you to know or believe to be true.

So I thought the movie was very effective.

Cameron Winter Carnegie Hall.

This is Whiplash, tonally, from the last film.

This was the first film that I watched when I arrived at the festival.

I would say Target Rich Environment.

A lot of guys who look like me or who will be me in 15 to 20 years at this screening,

very friendly fellows, women as well.

Sure.

But a PTA concert film, it draws out a certain type.

I am a Cameron Winter fan.

I didn't know if you were or not.

So I was wondering about this before you seeing the movie.

Yeah, I say this not to degrade you in any way, but because this was the experience

of watching the movie and then talking to people afterwards.

If you like Cameron Winter, this is a very cool concert movie.

If you have no relationship to Cameron Winter, you're takeaway from this will be, this

is a movie about a filmmaker trying to find an interesting way to film a musical performance.

Because that was my takeaway from it.

I guess that's true.

I mean, Cam is him in my opinion.

And I guess you don't know that my son's can sing Texas.

That that was something that developed this summer.

They know they know Dr. Heel yourself.

But so we enjoy Geese and my extension, Cameron Winter, in my household, also he's quite tall.

But I do think in addition to it being PTA and Benny Safty is one of the camera operators

on this, just trying to do the concert film in an interesting way.

It's also a portrait of a young genius.

And I think that there is something in the actual performance and watching this very special

person just sing his songs.

And I don't want to say too much more about how he sings them because even that is a really

delightful reveal.

But it feels very much of a moment in time.

And I would say it last week I got to see in a good way.

It's like a time capsule.

I got to see a lot of the films that were in New York last week, but I obviously had some

FOMO.

I felt like I was far away and I was missing New York and I was missing the vibe and

the fall of it all and energy.

This was a particularly fun night.

Yeah.

Well, but I will say at least for the 75 minutes when I was in the movie, I was like I'm

getting the energy of this concert.

I don't feel like divorced from the after party.

Then I went on Instagram and I saw everybody hanging out.

Cameron and PTA were at the after party, by the way.

Yes.

I didn't see them.

Yeah, but they were there.

I was there as well.

Sure.

Yeah.

But in a moment, I was like this, this is a, I feel the energy of this in a way that I

think is exciting.

I was talking to an older gentleman after the screening and he was not a Cameron Winter

person, but a loves music and and worked in music.

He was saying that didn't look like Carnegie Hall to me, which I thought was an interesting

note, which is that if you see a performance in Carnegie Hall that has been filmed, maybe

on PBS, it's basically just two cameras on tripods in the two aisles on the sides.

That's what you'll see.

This movie is almost like a, a diagrammatic journey through where you can put a camera

in that building.

There are times when it's up in the rafters.

There are times when it is on stage and as close to the performer as possible.

There are times when you can almost see PTA walking by, operating the camera before a hard

cut to not allow you to see him.

So in that way, it's almost like a nature documentary, the way that it's filmed and the way

the camera is captured.

I mean, as a singer, songwriter, he's wonderful.

He's working in a tradition that is my favorite thing.

Harry Nielsen and Randy Newman and those kinds of guys sitting at the piano pouring their

hard out and also being really funny.

That's my zone, that's my lane.

So I love that.

I might like that more than Geese actually, but I was more amused by the like, what if we

put it over here?

What if we went over here?

I mean, sure.

You know, it's just like, you know, it's like a big palette cleanser after making a $100

million movie.

For sure.

I mean, but it had that vibe of we just, we like this and we would like to have fun with

this and make something cool.

And that's what it is.

It's just something cool and it'll speak to you or it won't.

But I do think it can speak to people beyond just like the hardcore Cameron Winter fans.

Jack, you thought I have not.

Oh my God.

Jack, I can die after I watch this movie.

I won't say anything else to ruin it for you.

Jack Sanders is a lot of peace in Cameron Winter.

Yeah, but it's really, it's delightful.

And it's genuinely the most special artist in my life.

So I'm very excited.

Wow.

Huge statement.

Speaking of a statement.

Wow.

The new film from Tom McCarthy.

This is an interesting one.

I didn't really know very much about this movie.

I don't believe it's slated to come out until 2027.

It seems like it will have an awards qualifying run.

So many pictures, classics has it.

Tom McCarthy, of course, the director of Spotlight and win, win and still water.

Still water.

Fascinating director.

I always say he's a coin flip director for me where every other movie I think is great.

I think this one is, if not great, it's certainly very good.

I wrote about it a little bit in the newsletter today, but I'll just briefly summarize it for you.

I don't know if you and I talked about this one at all.

No, I just saw your letterbox review of people talking in rooms, Banger, which I was like,

sign me up.

It is a people talking in rooms, Banger.

Here's the, the, kind of the framework of the movie.

So it is based on a true event that happened in St. Petersburg, Florida in 1980, in which

a panel of policymakers, economists, environmentalists, representatives for government officials all

got in a room together, specifically scientists and academics, I should say as well, got in

a room together to talk about the emission of CO2 into the atmosphere and what we can do

about it and climate change.

And what's interesting about the movie is that it is the, all of the dialogue that takes

place in the conference room is pulled from the transcript of what was actually set during

this meeting.

And on top of that, it is Paul Giamatti and John Terturo and Paul Rudd and Amy Ryan and

like, and then 10 incredibly esteemed New York theater actors who may not be as famous as

some of those people, but who bring the same level of gravitas and skill.

Just demonstrating the ways in which we are not able to agree on things and make any progress

in this world.

The movie is like light and funny, the way that a lot of McCarthy stuff can be, but

pretty devastating.

Yeah.

Because 46 years ago, it's very clear that all of these people knew exactly what the problem

was and almost nothing was done.

And it was, it's also an event that takes place right on the precipice of the Reagan administration

right.

So that, that particular timing, it's pulled from Nathaniel Rich's book, Losing Earth.

I think it's like chapter three of that book.

And so they use that book to, as like a springboard into this story.

And then there's some other dramatized elements of what's happening not inside the conference

room that are worth discussing when people get a chance to see the movie.

But yeah, you know, it's not 12-angry men or anything, but it was very engaging for

a movie that could have felt very dead.

Also kind of, I guess somewhat ironically, I think a movie that should be seen on a

big screen.

Because if you watch it at home, it's going to feel like TV.

And if you see it big, you'll let yourself feel it more.

That's all I say about it.

I mean, I think that's true of most things.

Yeah.

Some things are not worthy of that.

And we'll talk about that when we get into the social reckoning.

Well, sure, yeah.

Making Maria Antoinette?

Yes.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, I just, I mean, this is wonderful.

So this is a film that is directed by Eleanor Coppola, mother of Sophia Coppola, wife

of Francis Ford Coppola, and the filmmaker behind Hearts of Darkness, the making of...

Francis Ford Coppola, who will make the Godfather for.

Sure.

Great.

Okay.

That seems like a wonderful idea.

But Francis, make Skydance pay for it.

Anyway.

Good idea.

So Eleanor Coppola, a great filmmaker in her own right and a great writer.

And she was on set during the making of Maria Antoinette, which is having its 20th anniversary

this fall.

And you know, filmed a making of documentary.

Eleanor Coppola died recently.

I want to say last year.

And so I think her loved ones finished the film.

But it is just a beautiful portrait, not just of the making of a movie that I love very

much.

And that is, you know, a very physical movie in its own way.

So it's fun to see the behind the scenes of how they're doing the sets and the hair.

And just how long everybody has to wait for the hair to be done.

And that became one of the major dramas of the set, which like I get it.

And why don't we have enough extras?

But it is also, it's the only narration is excerpts from Eleanor Coppola's journals that

are read by Diane Lane, who started her only feature film.

And they're wonderful.

And it is about a mother watching her daughter and how she feels about that.

And there are some interviews that Sophia gives to her mother that are, you know, are

wonderful and illuminating because there are things that she would only say to her mother,

but also they are still like, I don't want to talk to you right now because you're my

mother.

I believe that Eleanor Coppola meets Sophia's now husband, Thomas Mars of Phoenix on camera.

And he says, oh, on camera.

So you know, it has all of those wonderful slice of, it's very lived in and feels very specific

to them while also just being a great making of documentary about a truly great film.

I really feel like we're being proved right about Marie Antoinette.

Yeah.

I mean, we were, you know, we were there.

Yeah.

Yeah, you were there more than anybody.

No doubt.

Although I've always loved the movie too.

I think there's two things that I really, really liked about the movie.

I think you put your finger on something, which is the way in which Sophia communicates

to the camera is different in this movie than the way that you would normally see her

communicating, which is like a little bit more composed and calm.

There's one moment in particular near the end of the film where she is expressing some

regret about having part like decided to do this.

Yeah.

I mean, I think I'm going to say this again, and like that was a very like, I don't know

if it's like blisteringly raw, but it was real.

Right.

And I really appreciated that perspective.

I also really like seeing her relationship with Roman Coppola and the way that like he

kind of swoops into the movie and you can feel her like her, like he's like ballast.

Yes.

And I thought that was nice too.

And watching how they all work together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No way.

That's that was a nice, something you wouldn't see in a normal making of documentary.

It was a beautiful thing about a family and also, you know, that then such a family together

can make such extraordinary things.

And then there is also another amazing moment between Sophia and her mother is she's

talking about an interaction that she had with her cinematographer, Lance Accord, where

they're just talking about how to frame a shot.

And she just wants the table and the shot.

And it's Sophia's version of the until I see my notes applied.

Like there's no point in me giving more notes, which is a Beyonce reference.

Thanks everyone for keeping up.

But she she's venting about it to her mom and she's like, you know, even dad, when dad

does this blah, blah, blah, blah, and it's amazing because it's half her just bitching

about the way her dad is really being annoying.

And it's also half her talking about how Frances Ford Coppola is being dominier and trying

to like direct, you know, a movie because he does know some things about this.

It's a really, really interesting text.

It's amazing.

So I mean, I obviously loved it.

You're in the back.

I thought it was good.

I'm glad to watch it.

I mean, I love movies like this.

I wish every movie had a version of this for this.

Like this is exactly what it felt like to be on set during the making of this movie,

but this one doesn't have a very good version of it.

Godzilla minus zero.

Yeah.

We both loved Godzilla minus one.

And that was this big surprise.

It was a 23 or 24.

I can't remember what year it was.

And kind of came out of nowhere and it was the revival, obviously, of the big guy,

the G-man 23.

And that movie was a surprise hit here in the United States, though Godzilla lives in

my household forever.

I love him.

The stunning thing about that movie was its balance between classic Kaiju effects

driven monster fights and human experience setting the film in the aftermath of World

War II.

This movie is an extension of that.

Most of the same major characters return for this movie.

It is also a Godzilla Gita movie.

It is like, it is Gita, the origins of Gita, the giant dragon who fights Godzilla.

I think significantly outpaces the action in Godzilla minus one.

I don't know if you're going to care that much about this because it is just a lot of

monster fighting, but the monster fighting, which is not, there's not a lot.

I shouldn't say there's a lot of monster fighting.

There's not.

But it's done well.

Yeah.

When Godzilla punched Kong or Kong punched Godzilla for the first time.

Listen, come on.

I didn't like the second movie that they made about that.

And middle earth or whatever.

This one is different because this one is very much about the PTSD of World War II.

Okay, so you're not cheering.

Yeah.

No, but obviously the monsters are representative of something, but there is just like, forgive

me for sounding like such a dork.

Monster choreography in this.

That is amazing.

And then it is kind of, it's not loving so much as it is like set against this kind

of real human struggle.

I would argue there's like a little bit too much human struggle in this movie.

Yeah.

Which makes it a little drawn out.

You got to pat out the second movie.

It's tough.

It is a little pat it out.

Some of it is really earned.

Some of it not so much, but there's there's there's monsters in here that it's just fantastic.

Let me ask you this.

It's so funny that this movie played at the New York Film Festival.

But it's cool.

It's great.

Let me ask you this.

Yeah.

I think it's a good idea to go as Godzilla for Halloween.

I would love nothing.

And the three of you.

So it's like one of the, you know, one costume, someone's the head, someone's the tail,

Alice can be in the middle.

Oh, well, one monster.

Yes.

Yeah.

My daughter was speaking of choreography.

I know my daughter would want to be mothra though because mothra is a girl.

Okay.

And mothra is her favorite.

All right.

So we're having some of this in my house as well.

Where is Halloween costumes?

No, no, no.

It's like, oh, no, no, no.

I want the band with the boy drummer.

And I'm like, it doesn't matter.

I hate this.

I know.

I know.

I know.

Mothra is also nice.

You know, Godzilla is not nice.

Whatever.

She loves Godzilla.

She does.

But he's really cranky.

You know, he's kind of, he's like, Godzilla is kind of a bitch.

Like he's kind of got to, he's got to get his shit to go.

I'm going to wake up.

Okay.

All right.

So they woke you up.

Like, all right.

I think it would be funny if the three of you were, maybe you should be, Godzilla.

No.

I'm wearing May's hat, remember?

All right.

Yeah.

You'll be May.

A couple quick things.

Well, one quick thing that I'll close with, which was Joy of Joy's, which was the new

short film directed by Jonathan Glazer, who we just mentioned around Naza, which is a

35-minute documentary about the making of a benefit album for children in danger in

war zones that features a lot of very well-known artists.

The, I guess the gimmick, the wrinkle of this documentary is that while many of the

artists are recording, those artists include Jarvis Cocker, Fontaine's DC, Damon Alborn,

Olivia Rodrigo.

They're being filmed by eight-year-olds.

So eight-year-olds have video cameras.

Wow.

And are like, are like utterly disarming.

These world-famous pop stars.

And it is very entertaining.

That's great.

And very thoughtful.

Yeah.

And then you're also seeing Olivia Rodrigo just like rip one of the sickest vocal runs.

Yeah.

You know, you'll ever hear and then like turning to an eight-year-old and charming them

and they're charming her.

And so, you know, small film, obviously a very good cause.

But I mean, that sounds great.

I mean, that sounds nice.

Yeah, that sounds great.

Worth people's time, I would say.

Yeah.

And then there was a ton of stuff that we've already talked about here that was at the festival.

But all of a sudden, paper tiger, club kid, debut, minotaur, everything played here.

And you know, I think consensus is starting to concretize amongst the critical classes.

And really the next step is sort of critics prizes, I feel like.

Yeah.

That's what we're going to start to hear from that in the globes.

There's still a couple of things I need to see.

But I feel like I'm getting pretty close to having a handle on the whole season.

How are you feeling?

Well, I'm so glad artificial camera.

And I feel like I feel like it.

I feel like it shook up the snow globe a little bit.

You know, so that was nice to see.

We just needed that energy also.

We do.

We do.

There's something.

There's something vicious and aggressive.

And just delightful about it all at once.

It's a take no prisoners movie about this movement that is very interesting.

You know, not unlike this next movie I wanted to talk with you about very briefly, which

is Musk, which is the new four-hour documentary by Alex Kibney, which you had a chance to

see in Venice.

And you watched it in full in Venice, right?

I did.

I just saw it yesterday.

Give me, of course, among the most successful documentarians of this century, he made

an N-Run, the smartest guys in the room, client nine and rise in fall of Elliot Spitzer going

clear, Scientology and the prison of belief.

He's made like 50 movies at this point.

So he is really the guy when it comes to these big sweeping social issues and figures of

great controversy and great influence.

This one is in his view, Elon Musk, in full through all the stages of his success and

controversies and struggles.

But does not include Elon Musk's supposed involvement in Skydance.

So that's true.

We haven't got that far.

Has there been any other reporting about that?

I haven't heard anything, but I just wanted to note, you know, it's a living document.

I'd love for that to not happen.

Well, like he is the living document.

Truly.

Not this document.

The movie is trying to keep up with the changing times.

It is clearly something he's been working on for a long time, Gibney, and it gets us

pretty close into the present day as well.

Yeah.

Well, what did you think about it?

You mentioned it.

Breathe some brief thoughts, I think, out of Venice.

But I thought that it was comprehensive and convincing.

And I was irritated by some of the filmmaking choices, even as they understood the purpose

that they were serving.

Specifically, the video game simulation of it all, which is a narrative device that it

borrows from Elon Musk's own pondering.

And then builds the exploration of his life and the many different things that he has

done or said or places he has inserted himself through in a video game structure.

And also then instead of doing recreations for real, it just does.

It smooths over some of the tape that they don't have.

I get it.

Once again, I am not a video game person in any discipline.

So I was just limited by that.

And I also, it has many people spoke.

It does rely almost entirely on other people's reporting.

And they are credited and featured.

And so there are some things I didn't know as much about.

But I didn't feel like there was anything new in it.

The new is just putting it all in one place, which I think is a public service and I think

is valuable.

And again, it is convincing.

Yeah, I mean, it's a horror film that's being released theatrically.

And if you are interested in the origins of zip to SpaceX, Tesla, his acquisition of

Twitter and turning it into x.com, doge.

You know, it is spending a good portion of time on all of those things.

His various marriages and children, it spends a lot of time on that.

You know, Gibney is one of those filmmakers who, I would say, has a boundless appetite

for information.

Like he wants to squeeze as much context from his perspective into his work as he possibly

can.

I do think that sometimes he's working in a non-cinematic register that is like borderlines

closer to like you can almost listen to the movie and get the point.

Yeah.

You're right that he's trying to add this element of the video game.

There's also this element of using a CGI created musk that looks like AI though apparently

was not made with AI that we see on screen talking whenever there's audio that is not

made available to us or there's testimony essentially from him from interviews.

You know, it's a bit disorienting watching that footage.

That's also like the avatar does look like him, but is also gotten a glow up of some

sort.

It's very confusing.

He's more fit.

Yeah.

It's almost like as though he would imagine himself leather jacket it and maybe that's

a purposeful choice.

Right.

Because he is a person who well, there's a devastating opening shot once we get past the

sort of intro section of this film, which is that we see him stalking the halls of one

of his very first startups and his hairline.

And what his hair looked like in 1997.

And nothing is said about it.

There's no comment made.

There's no exploration of this subject matter at all.

But it's an unmistakable choice.

Yeah.

That this is a person who has transformed himself pretty consistently over the years.

There is some discussion about the way that he dressed himself at a certain period of

time when he wanted to be identified as an engineer that I thought was quite fascinating.

He's a self styled megalomaniacal world conquering trillionaire.

I mean, that is really.

Yes.

He is Hank Scorpio come to life from the Simpsons.

He is everything that we ever imagined in 1960s television when we thought of like Lex

Luther.

So I guess it's reasonable that there would be a four hour film about him.

I do agree with you that there's not a ton of revelation.

But maybe that doesn't matter as long as there's like, it's like reading a big old biography

about somebody and you're like, well, you know, it's like reading Walter Isaacson

book and you're like, oh, well, that's that person's life.

Got that.

I do wonder whether a Walter Isaacson book in a four hour theatrical documentary format

will find its audience.

You know, it really did.

Again, it is very, very convincing.

I buy the take and it shows its work.

You know, but I don't know about most of this, right?

I don't need to be convinced.

And I do understand the public value in having this exist for someone, but like who needs

to see it?

And are they going to see it in a movie theater?

I don't know.

I mean, you know, and will they be able to watch it on streaming?

Will it be uploaded to the streaming platform?

I think I think you will get to HBO.

The HBO documentary films, Kairan does appear at the beginning of the movie.

If it doesn't appear on HBO, well, that will feel like silencing an artist.

I think that's how it's going to feel, whether that's actually what's transpiring or not.

I don't know what agreement Alex Gibney has with, you know, Skydance now.

The movie though, like, here's one thing it doesn't do.

It uses the rocket launches as this kind of very simple metaphor for him imagining the

impossible and trying to make it so.

And even in the face of failure, pretending as though nothing is wrong and continuing forging

ahead.

And you can say from one direction, he's a great scientist who works tirelessly to achieve

dreams and change the world.

Seen from another direction, Yorik's havoc on the world, thinking only of his own personal

angles.

I don't totally understand.

And this is maybe not Alex Gibney's fault.

Anything underneath Elon Musk.

It feels like he's, has a slowly evolving mind state about certain things that feel very

important to us.

But there's no, like, there, there.

There's no ultimate philosophy.

There's no ultimate personal incident that informed his point of view.

Like we see his father and his mother speak briefly and we see that his father is quite

strange and that there is an undercurrent of racism from his background.

He's of course South African.

But like, he was 12, what was going on when he was 19, what was going on?

What were the things that he wrote in his journals as a young person?

What were the, you know, we see him as an entrepreneur, as a person who wants to build.

But is that all there is?

Maybe.

I don't know.

I agree with you completely that the documentary doesn't even try to answer that question.

And it's much more interested in making a public record of, you know, a figure that

is of historical significance.

So I guess it's the Walter Isaacson book rather than the Candace Millard version, which

is that's a historian that Juliet Lippmann and my father-in-law read a lot.

But, you know, it's not the dad history version trying to assign a character study.

Though, I, you know, I know I know I may have seen more sympathetic somehow.

I mean, it's a deeply unsympathetic portrait of him deeply.

But that also doesn't feel unjustified.

I want to talk about character studies in the context of social reckoning and also in

other films that are coming out in the next few weeks.

So let's put a pen in it.

Okay.

We'll put a pen in it.

Generally, I liked musk.

I, you know, it's hard to be like heart on musk, you know.

It's like it's kind of a grueling four-hour experience of watching somebody who's sort of

obnoxious, hurt people.

But nevertheless.

Part of the back half and part of the reason that I snuck in, you know, my Compari

Sprets in the Water bottle was there are aspects of Elon Musk now that I've just been like,

well, I don't actually need to consume any of this media.

So some of it was sort of bracing towards the end of just like, I haven't watched that

many clips of the Manosphere.

And I was like, oh, it's really, it's really as bad as I imagined.

And just the tremendous amount of Babylon B content in the documentary.

That's the most Babylon B content I've ever consumed.

So in that sense, you know, I guess it is a record of something that happened.

Okay, let's pivot to the social reckoning.

So this movie's written and directed by Aaron Sorkin.

Yeah.

He's, I mean, is he your lighthouse?

Is he your ship in the night?

He once was.

He once was.

He'll explore that.

I think one half of that written by Aaron Sorkin.

Do even there I'd like to investigate.

Yes, I think we should explore.

What was written in this?

This new film stars Mikey Madison, Jeremy Allen White, Jeremy Strong, Bill Burr, Betty Gilpin,

and Billy Magnuson, and one of me, Misaku, I should say.

Cinematography by Jeff Kroner-Weth, who I believe shot the social network.

Okay.

Well, unlike the social network, this film is scored by Alexander Desplott, not Trent

Resner, Naticus Ross.

Yeah.

Here's what this film is about.

Facebook engineer Francis Hagen and the Wall Street Journal reporter Jeff Horowitz blow

the whistle on the social network's most guarded secrets.

This is of course based on a true story transpired from roughly 2019 through 2021.

What did you think of the social reckoning?

I have been apprehensive, which is I think a generous word about this film since it was announced.

Number one, because the social network is number one on our 25 for 25 list.

We think it is one of the great movies of our lifetime.

It is our generation citizen came.

And it means a lot to both of us.

And so you can't reheat a souffle.

I just make it a sequel.

Seems like a bad idea.

And also it was announced from the beginning that Aaron Sorkin would be directing as well

as writing this film.

And putting aside whatever we think of Aaron Sorkin's directing, which we'll get to, the

magic of the social network was that it was where Fincher's genius and Sorkin's genius

is met.

And the sum was greater than the parts.

So I have been really nervous.

Then we saw some trailers.

I would continue to be nervous.

And no one likes to hear me say I was right.

But this did not work out.

This is everything that I feared.

This is the MSNBC mom Aaron Sorkin, unedited version of the Facebook files.

It is all of his sins.

And a few of his skills put together, but with no one to save him from himself.

And I found myself thinking a lot about the West Wing, which is a show that I grew up

on.

And that I love.

And that taught me a lot about how to be funny.

Though many people are like, you're not funny.

So that's fine.

That's what the TV better in Sorkin said.

Yeah, that's what we all agree on that one.

But if this were just a TV show on NBC in the year 2002, I probably wouldn't have a problem

with it.

But it is very much a network TV procedural.

It's really, it's just a procedural and it's shot like it.

And it's maybe acted worse than it, which we can get into.

Yeah.

I mean, and so it's a no for me.

Yeah.

I didn't think it was successful.

I didn't hate it.

I think that there's a significant number of moments that are grown worthy or I roll

inducing.

That's something that's been pretty common in the Aaron Sorkin experience for about a decade.

And the actually the lifespan of this show has coincided with me really getting off the

train.

I thought Molly's game was fun, but flawed.

I thought the trial of Chicago seven was over serious and inert.

I thought being in the Ricardo's was embarrassing.

I think this movie is not embarrassing and not inert, but it actually just feels quite

safe.

And it's a much more of a journalism movie than it is a courtroom film, which is what

the social network is.

The social network is a character study and an exploration of the building of a company

and an idea that kind of infected our culture.

But it's also a movie that uses a very specific litigation strategy as he so often does to

elevate the tension which fincher like seizes on.

It's Fincher's courtroom movie, right?

This movie is procedural about journalism, but in a way that is not revelatory in a story

that is widely known but whose impact is debatable.

And I think we can talk about maybe that at the end of this conversation, sort of like what

really were the ramifications of these events specifically and why would you choose this

moment to dramatize if you were going to follow up the social network, which I always

felt did have tremendous social import.

You know, I felt like there actually is a meaningful movie and we debated that with sort

of like the world at large when we were doing 25 or 25 because there were a lot of younger

people who were like, what's the big deal with this movie?

And we didn't understand there was not there was life before Facebook.

And it did actually change things pretty dramatically.

And this movie is kind of trying to follow up on that by seizing on a moment in history

and recent history that, you know, is upsetting to some and certainly had meaningful impact

on political systems and the presidential administrations and people's lives.

But I can't help but feeling like this is more of a blip than it is like a monumental

moment.

And so the stakes just feel kind of low at all times while you're watching the movie is

just kind of like, yes, kind of like very gently moving along at its own pace.

It doesn't feel like you're ever, it's not a thriller and it should feel like a thriller.

The movie thinks that it stakes are so high and takes on, you know, the entire world government

systems and spoiler alert, Jan 6th at which was rumored from the beginning.

So and, and, you know, many other it has life is at stake and the and democracy.

I mean, the number of times that the word democracy is said free speech is said, the movie

takes its stakes so seriously and sets them so high that there are basically that there

are no stakes because it can't encompass and telegraph all of them appropriately.

Well, democracy was not radically altered in any direction by any of these events.

I mean, we know that like some things changed.

But there's a paradox at the very end of the movie that we'll talk about when we get

to the end of this conversation.

I think I know why he wanted to come back to this and I do understand that Aaron Sorkin

who has been very proudly noting that he still does not have any social media during his

promote his promotion cycle for this film, but is using all of the tools of social media

to try to get people to go see his movie because he's not engaged in the kind of contemporary

world in that way.

It feels like he's unsuited to make a movie about these times.

He doesn't really understand the modes of communication because he's not participating.

So it doesn't mean that like in order to make the best ever movie about media in 2026,

you need to be on x.com all day, but this is very old fashioned and it feels that way

the whole time.

Yeah, it's also the target of the social network is the media and is how we talk to each

other and is this world that we live in now.

But the target of social network is really just one person.

It's a character study and it's not even really a target.

He's an anti hero and the, you know, Sean Parker is the hero, just in Timberlake and

people taking advantage of him.

But the stakes there are ultimately very human.

The target of the social reckoning is in fact the media, Facebook specifically, definitely

the Trump administration, everyone on the, and so he's, he doesn't have characters in

this.

He's not exploring anything other than his opinions loudly and attaching them to various

characters.

Yeah.

And so it's just the concept of the, of the movie is so different and so suited to everything

that he is not good at unless he's making a weekly television show.

Yeah, I thought about this a lot with him, especially in recent years, every sorkin script

is a dialectic between himself that it's like there's, it's the two brains of Aaron

Sorkin and one brain is a lot smarter than the other brain and you know it while you're

watching the movie.

And so it becomes these kind of two tracked ideas battling against each other.

So in a few good men, it's duty versus honor.

What is the right answer in that equation, especially if you're a member of the American

military?

In Steve Jobs, it's innovation versus humanity.

Should you push forward no matter what to develop something that will change people's lives

versus should you be a good father or a good colleague or a good, whatever in the world?

Or should it come to that come with the expense?

Can you be best?

Can you have both in in Molly's game?

He could not until he invented the iPad live pod.

In Molly's game, it's having something for yourself, especially as a woman in a world

that is very competitive and unrelenting in the face of a woman's independence.

But if you do so, can you only do it by non-virtuous activity, right?

There's like, there are always these parallel tracks where a character has to choose one

or the other.

They're really, these are really old school theatrical structures that he is applying.

Yeah.

And I don't really know what it is in this one.

I don't really know that what the debate he seems to be most interested in is the one

between the two characters, the Jeremy Allen White and Mikey Madison play.

They're the two characters who are constantly talking to each other in this movie.

Their discussions comprise 60% of the movie.

And Hagen is a increasingly guilt-ridden engineer who works in civic integrity at Facebook.

And Jeremy Allen White is portraying Horowitz, the investigative reporter who is shifting

from the political beat to the tech beat at the Wall Street Journal.

And so he's on the hunt for what's really going down at these social media companies

and how Facebook is toxifying our minds.

And so there's just a lot of discussion about what is happening and why it's happening

at Facebook between these two people.

And increasingly he is trying to extract more and more information from her and more and

more trust from her.

And she is at war with the idea of breaking her NDA and then breaking the kind of bolder,

bigger, truer promise of what Facebook could and should be.

Which is connecting to other people.

Yes.

To her idea and the one interpretation of the social network.

I'm willing to give, I'll be curious to know how you feel about this.

I'll be willing to give her this character at least.

I don't know if this is how France is how it can actually felt at the time.

In 2007, I was like, oh wow.

I know what's going on with my uncle already.

He posted an update.

I mean, I still see what's going on with it.

There was something like that.

I still feel that way about Instagram on a small level, which is owned by Facebook now

called meta.

And which is also invoked in the film because at this time, Instagram was owned by meta

and part of the eventual revelations of the Facebook files include studies on Instagram.

And how about it is for kids?

Yes.

And the rest of us too, but they don't care once you are, it's fine.

We're doing it to ourselves.

So yeah, I understand that, but that's 2007 or 2009, or that's, you know.

I'm trying to grant that character a little because she just seems so polyanna about this

idea that we obviously know to be foolish.

That Facebook could have ever represented some common good.

And that the people who worked there and many of the people who were users came into the

experience of using it, feeling like that was possible.

And then increasingly, the notion of MSIs are introduced inside of the company, which

are meaningful social interactions.

Are you familiar with this phrase?

Even from some of the reporting, but I just forgotten it.

Yeah.

Once the jargon starts, I go away.

Understandable.

There's a lot of jargon in this movie.

A lot of the film is obviously based on the reporting that Horowitz and others did.

But meaningful social interactions were originally meant to be about Facebook reestablishing

this thing that we're discussing, this idea of rather than sharing news about people talking

about what they believe or something that's happening to them in the world.

And in fact, it was kind of a manipulated strategy by Facebook to get people to share

more rage-inducing content that those were the things that drove the most engagement on

the platform as they are across all platforms.

I guess that particular component of the story, which is depicted as a massive reveal in

the reporting by the Wall Street Journal, is one of those things.

It's just like, I've been on the internet for 30 years.

We need to tell many.

Yeah.

A clickbait headline will drive people crazy and make them click more and say more and

leave more comments and go more crazy.

That's not news.

It was notable that Mark Zuckerberg was confronted about these ideas before Congress.

That was notable.

But that Wall Street Journal reporting did anybody who was under 40 look at that and go,

my God, this changes everything.

How did we not know that?

No, it's true.

And I mean, even the idea that Facebook was gaming the system, which of course is the

big revelation, was that surprising?

Was that genuinely surprising to people that these four profit enterprises were manipulating

people's behaviors?

No, I guess it was having it on the record and having it.

But it's a little bit of disclosure day also.

True.

Same thing.

It's of a same generation.

There is a very boomerish quality to this.

They should have wheeled out Mark Zuckerberg like that.

But just also that once it's out there, of course, to someone like Aaron Sorkin, once

the truth is testified before Congress, then of course everything will change.

And also once we can link what's going on here to the Jansix riots, which he at least

does filmically.

He does.

Then of course, all justice will be restored and we'll get him.

And if not, then we'll just vote for Mitt Romney, like, which was it.

Don't forget that op-ed.

So there is, I agree with you that structuring the movie around these events and this reveal

is the non-starter that Sorkin thinks he's important because he's of a generation where

like, you know, the Pentagon papers are invoked several times in this movie.

This movie does borrow at least a little bit of the structure, if quite literally nothing

else from all the presidents.

Indeed.

And you know, it's if you know the all the presidents men as well as you and I do, then

it's to its detriment that you're thinking of it so often.

Yeah.

I mean, one of the wonderful things about all the presidents men, which we talked about

many times over the years, is that the shoelether is demonstrated in many different environments

with many different characters.

Yes.

You know, part of what makes the movie so interesting is the sort of treasure hunt with

no map quality that would have an emergency and are pursuing.

In this movie, it's just Horowitz going back to Hogan over and over again.

And he's persuasive.

And I want to say, like, I thought Jeremy Allen White and Mikey Madison were pretty good

in this.

Like, it's not really their fault.

Like, they're being saddled with a bunch of really led and overwritten, like, I guess

meant to be sort of like metaphorically compelling breadcrumbs throughout, you know, like,

oh, wouldn't it be funny if you say this here so I can have a call back to it an hour

for now?

It looks like Sorkin 101 or playwriting.

That's like that comedy, whatever.

And they don't, they do not land the comedy.

I would argue that they are miscast.

Okay.

Particularly Mikey Madison, who I think is just not on the Sorkin Ratatat level.

And that's not her fault.

That's, it's just not there.

He just does not write women.

Well, he doesn't, but like, the Allison Janie could do it, you know?

Sure.

The only woman ever cited in any Aaron Sorkin entertainment that was credible.

I just like a chestene was kind of kind of.

I'm trying to think of this is not against any of those actors.

It's like the way that these characters are written, I'm like, they're not characters.

They're, well, listen, neither of those people are characters.

They are not.

Yeah, we get nothing of Horwood's real life.

They're very, very broad.

Excuse me.

He doesn't know how to use a GPS.

I was about to say he doesn't know how to use a GPS.

And she, you know, like talks too much at meetings.

And so, and people don't want to like befriend her.

So.

And also she has, you know, gluten disease.

So she has to wear it.

She has celiac, sorry.

She has neuropathy.

Sorkin literally suggests that she's not a character when she's writing her dating profile.

And she's like, I'm a free spirited data scientist who likes, deletes the likes, deletes

the free spirited.

It's like, I'm a data scientist.

Yeah.

Now, listen, I think there's something interesting in that idea of a kind of lost

person who has like set out this life for herself or she's like, I'm throwing my life

into working for the biggest and most exciting tech company in the world at a time when someone

like me with my kind of brain can be really successful in part of changing the world.

Yes.

I think if this was more of a loss of innocence movie, which it's trying to be, it could

be compelling.

But it's saddled with, it's trying to score too many other points.

It's not interested in her.

It's not a character setting.

It's not.

Like the, the series of events in which she decides not just, not just to like leak

one document, but within the span of two minutes, the character goes from being a Facebook

employee and surreptitiously photographing documents to being willing to go on the record.

She's contacted a whistleblower like advocacy group already.

She understands it's none of this is spoilers because this is all she's really happened

five years ago, but it happens so fast that even I who knows the real events and knows

what happens.

I turned to her.

I was like, what the hell?

There's just, there's absolutely no development.

There's no interest in like what her motivation would be why she would, would want to do it.

Why, to break.

Well, I mean, I think in that particular case, the implication is is that the delivery

of the information about Instagram kind of tips her over that her co-worker shares.

And like her co-worker shows up and is like here, right?

You know, I have your support.

I mean, it's similar.

You know, the team and the Avengers.

Yeah.

We got to save the teenage girls body image.

You know, 30 something percent.

Wow.

32% of the number was.

I mean, you know, I think that, I think you're right, though, which is just that we don't

really understand these people, you know, we don't really have a sequence like the opening

sequence of the social network where we get a sense of Mark Zuckerberg in his opening

conversation with Rene Mara, where she is not only defining him, but he is continuing to

define himself and their friction between each other and the way that the way that that

conversation is executed from a filmmaking perspective is just more entertaining and

more complex, more finely observed than what Aaron's working can do as a film.

There is an opening sequence that sets the intentions and the tone of this film very

clearly.

That opening sequence is an absolutely excruciating recreation.

I assume imagined because the way that it's written is so sorkin.

And it's so it's sorkin recreating what he imagines or what he wants to represent is going

on in an extremist chat group viral videos.

And so he recreates a white woman being stopped by the police.

She's not even stopped by the police.

She's been stopped.

The police happen upon her.

She films her own video.

Then it gets posted and it is it's supposed to be excruciating because it is, you know,

an extremist group, but it is also Aaron's sorkin's view of what's wrong with the world

and why people are hateful to each other and how they express themselves and what's wrong

with the media is so reductive.

And honestly, like a product is the very thing that he is inditing in this movie itself.

Like this is a very like Facebook mom movie.

And that is a very Facebook mom post and a very like very, can you believe that this

is what's going on?

This is exactly what your uncle would describe to you.

You know, a Thanksgiving dinner.

If you have the good kind of uncle, I guess.

So it's a nightmare.

It's an absolute nightmare.

And the movie just goes from there with the same level of analysis and lack of character

explanation.

And we haven't even talked about Jeremy Strong playing more tech version.

I was getting to that.

Yeah.

So, you know, the bulk of the movie is the whistleblower and the reporter.

And then the film has an acronological structure where it keeps shifting forward and backward

into time.

We start effectively in 2019 and we slide about five or six times in the movie to 2021

to Mark Zuckerberg preparing for future testimony before Congress.

And he is being prepped by a fleet of lawyers and crisis consultants and former friends

who happen to be in the room.

And in this movie, Jeremy Strong plays Mark Zuckerberg, not Jesse Eisenberg notably.

In that room, it's kind of a fascinating collection of actors, really good actors.

I might argue that this stuff works a lot better than what's in the rest of the movie.

But I don't know that there's enough here to justify its existence.

Well, it's tough because it doesn't really teach you anything.

No, it doesn't.

It's what Storken does well, which is, you know, litigation.

This is deposition.

He's prepping for his congressional appearance or like major callbacks to debate prep,

which is an episode of the West Wing.

And that's a wonderful episode.

So if you're in the know, you're already in that mood, but it's people arguing about ideologies

in rooms, like good actors.

And they are good actors.

And it's also like, you can just feel that's what Storken really wants to be saying.

Like, and you know, the billboard character is the Storken stand in.

And he just keeps screaming about like fact check political ads, which, you know,

you can hear Aaron Storken screaming that at like a news broadcast because he doesn't look at

social media quote unquote.

And no, but it's hard for me to be like,

Sorken is not a good filmmaker when I watch some of this stuff because what

wouldn't be Misaku and Billy Magnuson and Bill Burr are doing in these sequences.

And you know, we can we can talk about

strong in a minute as a sort of standalone.

Yeah.

But that stuff works.

Like it is definitely like, hectoring

Sorken speech writing that is flying a mile a minute.

But like, that's what he does well.

We listen, you watched all three seasons of the newsroom.

When that works, that is that's his skill set.

That's what he's good at.

It does also, by the way, just like in one room.

So he doesn't have to worry about it's a play.

He's a playwright.

He doesn't have to worry about moving a camera, setting anything on.

He doesn't have to worry about like not having other locations.

It's, you know, it's just to go back to the film

making very quickly.

I can see him attempting to make moves like the way that he's creating

atmosphere with the fog in San Francisco and the secret meetings between

Hagen and Horowitz are transpiring where he's trying to create some mood

and atmosphere or the way that the camera is sort of moving

over the desks across the offices of the Wall Street Journal.

We're like, I feel him trying to do things that are like,

I, I too am a filmmaker.

Right.

I have moves that are making you feel situated in environments.

But it's, it's stilted and very

transparent.

He does the working girl shot of all the feet walking to work in San Francisco,

but it's, you know, all the solomans or what.

Oh, that's yeah.

He has the Jansixers.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes.

He might be doing both.

He might be going to cross cutting both of those things.

And you can see this in the trial of Chicago 7-2 where he's attempting to create,

you know, there's a particular sort of like riot march sequence in that movie

with a lot of gas that he wants to give you the feeling that you feel

when you watch reds or you watch, you know, like the curious case of Benjamin Button,

a movie that like, even if I don't love that movie, has extraordinary atmosphere,

you know, has, it feels like very different from other films.

He does not have the juice.

But when he's in a room, as you say,

he's got the juice.

And Bill Burr, who like, 10 years ago, nobody was like,

Bill Burr's going to be a good actor, but I'm like,

Bill Burr's going toe-to-toe with Jeremy Strong and is very entertaining in this movie.

Yeah.

And helps that he makes all of the good points.

It makes you good points.

Yeah.

But that is a feature of sorkin scale, like of what he does best, where it's like,

that's the two brain thing.

Where when you're having the debate, someone is winning and someone is losing,

and there's a little nuance in between, a little nuance,

but there's always someone person who's like more ethically right in any sorkin debate.

And it is kind of gratifying.

It's the same way what, like when you're watching a few good men and you're watching

somebody thunder back at somebody else, you're like, well, I'm rooting for that person,

not that person.

Even though I think that what that person said was kind of cool.

Yes. Well, I mean, but that's the thing is that you are missing in, and again,

it's not Jeremy Strong's performance is fine.

It's just Jeremy Strong doing Mark Zuckerberg, you know, with the Caesar hair.

But he's not given anything cool to do.

So there is no, there's not even the Nicholson-esque pushback or the you can't handle the truth.

He doesn't have any good one-liners.

He doesn't have any.

There's one scene.

He yells about free speech.

There's one scene and part of what's challenging about this movie is

the flashbacks, they're not confusing, but they reveal a kind of ornateness in the structure

that is, that makes the film black pace.

So there are some flashbacks that are in black and white where we're seeing a very momentous

meeting in which a decision is made.

Yes.

And then there are other flashbacks where we're seeing, or if they're not flashbacks,

they're happening in Hagen's contemporary reality, but then we're flashing forward.

But at one point we go in 2019 to a civic integrity meeting that takes place in Zuckerberg's office.

And it's the only time that we see Zuckerberg at length out of the 2021 timeline.

Yeah.

I thought that scene worked really well.

Yes.

And it is a demonstration of how Zuckerberg led and made choices at Facebook with particular

units of the company.

And this one, he's extremely dismissive, cuts to the,

it forces everyone to cut to the chase and you can see the ways in which it is making his

employees uncomfortable because he is focused strictly on bottom line at a certain time in the

company's history.

That to me is what the sequel to the to the Facebook movie should be.

It should be the demonstration of the way all those choices were made, not the assertation,

not the acquisition of the information about what he did.

Like this is a movie about getting the info about what he did rather than just showing us what

he did except for two scenes.

I mean, I agree with you.

I don't know.

It's so strange.

I mean, I understand why because he had, he saw it structurally in terms of a play and he's like,

oh, okay, well, I can do my deposition thing over here except it's the deposition prep.

And then I'll fold in the homage to all the whistleblower movies that I love.

And then I can bring it all together with my recreation of Janskiks, which is important to me as

a boomer to make sure we get on the record how I feel about this, which is negative.

He's he was against it.

He was against it.

No, did Aaron's working.

Four Jansks.

Were you there that day?

I mean, I will say that this recreation makes the morning show look like res.

So in that sense, I just I think that the morning show had a lot more resources.

I think they built a fake capital.

You know, they had Reese Witherspoon there.

Sure.

So it's it's tough though.

It's tough when you're watching the so-called sequel to the social network and you're thinking

about the West Wing and the morning show.

It's very TV in the movie.

Yeah.

It's very much it feels like an HBO original movie from 1998.

And I liked a lot of those movies.

I've cited them here in the past.

I always found those docky dramas entertaining.

They continued those with some of the kind of political comedies that Jay Roach was making

like game change, you know, movies like that.

And those movies are cool and they're like they pass the time by humorously summarizing outrageous

events in our recent history.

I feel like Aaron Sorkin is just at sea with what kind of stories he wants to tell.

And these last few films, I don't really get what he's after.

And maybe this is just like he's got a great life.

He's been extraordinarily honored and successful and he's operating in a different

stratosphere but he's trying to get you to think about a lot of much better movies.

It's a very dangerous game.

Before the film started, I was treated to some, you know, behind the scenes,

EPK, Sorkin prep about this movie and he was noting how his last two movies because of the

pandemic were streaming only and he was excited for people to get back in theaters and to watch his

great cinema. But like, sir, just make a mini series. Imagine if this were a mini series.

I think it's like, I think it would have been good.

I think it would have been good.

And then also it gives more room for all the Sorkin stuff that is within this.

I mean, there's musical theater and sports references and some pattern.

Again, I think we would have to recast to get some of the pattern back.

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I've really soured on him over the last five years.

And so I'm, I probably sound like I disliked this more than I actually did.

Like, I didn't find it to be, I felt like you were maybe a little bit more frustrated by it

while we were watching it together, even than I was. But I think I'm just, for someone like him,

who I have venerated in the past.

Yeah.

And not just the social network, I think Steve Jobs is exceptional.

And I also really like a lot of his 90s scripts.

And I think he was able to have a little bit more fun back then too.

I don't sense him having a lot of fun.

I sense him to swim almost like box checking his own

pecadillos, you know, like references to showboat and the banana,

banana daiquiri stuff in this movie. And, um, you know, there's a fist pump

callback reference to a college basketball game that is like very sports night,

one-on-one. And all that stuff feels almost perfunctory.

It's like we're waiting for him to do something like that instead of it being logically or

emotionally coherent to the story being told. I think if you are not a sorkinologist,

you might not feel any of those things as much, but we do. And so I'm like,

no.

There's a moment towards the end when Jeremy Allen White's character throws a towel at the

Princess Haltgren character. And she doesn't catch it. And he's like, oh, I guess I should have

told you that that was coming. And, you know, again, I've rewatched many sorkin shows over and over

again, but I'm like, with different actors, there's a pattern.

Right. But Bradley Whitford, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a timing there. So it's I think a little bit

it, much of it, I think, is the execution doesn't work out. But then also it like he picked the wrong,

like in every circumstance, he picked the wrong framing, he picked the wrong story,

he didn't develop characters, you know, it's like, I want to talk about Jeremy Allen White a little

bit because I think he's really talented. And I think he is like, he's now picked two parts in a row

where you've got ostensibly people with a lot going on and you don't really get a whole lot.

The last part was Bruce Springsteen and deliver me from nowhere. And that movie is also very

unsuccessful in a kind of a similar way, where it's like, this could have been an email with a link

to a well-constructed oral history. You know, like it's just not terribly synagogues. Lots of shots of

people doing things, writing out their thoughts on paper or screen and then maybe crossing things.

Yes. And in this movie, taking photographs of charts from internal documents of Facebook.

And but I don't I also don't know what the best use of him is per se, you know, because obviously

in the bear, Karmie is this incredibly internal tortured person and that the nature of his own

torture and his own ambition and drive to succeed is like slowly revealed over time over many seasons.

I thought I thought he was good in Iron Claw, which I almost called White Claw. He is good in Iron

Claw, which you might need a White Claw to get through its other pain and sadness, a devastating movie.

That's a good use of him. Yeah. That was a good use of him. And that's a cinematic movie.

It is. This is, I mean, he's not a, yeah, but it's Sean Durkin like to say that's a real filmmaker,

you know, like that's not. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree.

I don't know. I don't know why I want better for him. I see him in interviews. I'm like, he seems

cool. I want better for everyone involved in this film. Like him. That also going to be fun.

Yeah. She's going to be fine. I don't totally agree that she's miscast, but I just don't really

think he fully has a conflict of that person. No, how to write women. But I would also say he

doesn't really write any characters in this film. So that's part of the problem.

You know what? I'm willing to forgive that in most movies that he writes because

there is a kind of kinetic energy to the back and forth. And no one is really generating that

except for Jeremy Strong for about five minutes and Bilber for about five minutes. And then

everything else is really flat. So yeah, this is, this is a bum. You know, Billy Magnus and innocent,

Betty Gilpin. So unbelievably innocent. I know, but I just really want somebody to write her

part where she gets to be nice. Okay. But I don't, I don't mind that she's not. I'm getting a little

tired of people being like, she's the bitch in this one. Okay. I don't, I don't know. Was

Katherine Hepburn ever nice? She was charming. Was Betty Gilpin charming in this? I thought so.

I mean, she's great. I love her. But I thought I was like, this is, this is another woman that like,

have you met a woman? I don't know. I liked it when she was like, you guys can have him by

and just like left the room. That's kind of trial how I try to deal with all the men in my life.

I know what it was. I'll tell you what it was with that character. She keeps like announcing how

not nice she is. Yeah. Well, sure. Yeah. You know, we can see she's an actor. She's performing.

I don't know. I don't know where I think I'm taking this conversation. Okay. It didn't work.

It didn't work. We were right. They should have called us. They didn't. Oh, they don't need to call me.

I just need to just need to be better. Well, I agree. But I think I'm gonna tell them. I've never

written a movie. I don't know about that. I just know what I like. I don't think you could have

fixed it. But I think I think that we were we were concerned about this. That's all. Okay. Let me

just posit this to you. Yeah. If it's Fincher directing in Eisenberg is in here. And it's this

script, but presumably the like pressure makes diamonds to create something different. Yes.

Fincher's notes on the script. Yeah. Eisenberg's sense of this character. Is this a significantly

better film? Yes. I mean, I think so. I think also what Fincher will bring in terms of

not just like the emphasis, not cinematic achievements, but the emphasis on characters and

um, and how the characters are portrayed and getting all the actren in it, actreness out. I think

that you probably get a lot of people recast. Also, it doesn't feel sociatical. Um, yeah. So,

yeah, I think it's definitely better. Does it, but still does it have a need to exist? Like, does

it reveal anything about the world? I don't think so. Because we live in a disclosure day world, not in

uh, the 1970s of all the presidents men. I feel like it's more useful if you're looking at 17, 18,

and 19 instead of 19, 20 and 21. 19, 20 and 21 is when all the decisions made in 17, 18, and 19

a start to really play out. Right. It's like really when everything has bubbled over entirely,

because we were living in the, you know, the post, the first Trump election and the rage emanating

off of that and the sort of like the way in which liberals were caught by surprise by the way,

the Trump wave and then this kind of like, um, true, two sided warfare that's happening online over

the period of first administration is what starts to generate all of this knowledge about like,

that's when the Washington Post really takes off when these after Bezos buys it, subscriptions are

flying. And so the New York Times really hunkers down and they start growing and growing and growing

in the aftermath of that. And then that media, you know, this is a different movie, but it's just like,

that's what, that's what happened that got us to that thing. Yeah, no, of course, but he doesn't

understand that. He just wants to make all the presidents men. And because, and he does think that,

you know, but he doesn't even learn the basic script writing lessons of that, which is that like they do

all of the work, but then you don't see that you don't see the victory lap.

Well, that brings me to one last thing, which is that the movie closes, um,

with Houggan's testimony and then a series of cards about what has happened with Facebook and

in the intervening years. And then the last card indicates what is it about the number of users,

current active users that Facebook has that meta has, is that the last line that we see on the screen?

I don't remember that. What is the last thing we see on the screen?

Oh, no, isn't the last thing like, um, now meta's policies, they don't fact check anything at all.

Oh, yeah, that's right. That is the last thing. Thank you. Yeah.

And, you know, that's obviously a very upsetting, but perfectly sork and esk way of framing the like,

the doom quality that we have around all this stuff. But then we cut back to Houggan and she

gives Jeremy always character a fist pump like they've achieved something.

We'll call back to her moment observing. Yeah, no, I know. I know. I know that's her one moment of happiness.

It's like, what did this one woman woman's moment of happiness? This one woman's moment of happiness

and accomplishing something led to Facebook and meta becoming even more nihilistic about the way

that they manage their company. It's just, it's such a confused message. Like, what are we even

supposed to take from that idea? I don't know. I agree with you. It's not your job to answer it,

but you see why I'm asking, right? No, it's a great question. I mean, the movie that Aaron

Sorkin thinks that he's making reflects his version, his view of the world and what he thinks needs

to be done to solve all of our problems. Our problems have not been solved and this movie is not

solving them because Aaron Sorkin is wrong. He's not wrong that Facebook doesn't fact check

anything and that like we live in a hell created by many things, including the media, but like,

no, it didn't help. You said it. It didn't work. We didn't have all this information and nothing's

different. Maybe you've gone on social media recently. It's quite crazy. I tried not to. Yeah.

I found the film's biggest flaw to be that on one side, he's operating and this is the most

serious thing to ever happen to us and we really need to care. And the other side is like, aren't

these people funny? Let's have some gags. And it's just like so totally, totally unbalanced.

Just found it incredibly strange and like, I also like Jeremy Allen White, but like,

he's at his best in the movie when he is kind of doing the hard expository stuff because like,

he's keeping up with the Sorkinisms and keeping the car driving. But when he has to do like the

funny stuff, he's so stiff and wooden. I agree. He's not very good at that stuff at all. And you do

need a leading man who can riff on those things. The social network is funny, but in a very cutting

way. It kind of like, it really adds, it's like putting ice cubes in some of the like overheated,

over caffeinated Sorkin style writing. And this stuff, like you said at the very beginning of

the conversation, there's nothing pushing back against some of those instincts. So it's not a success.

It doesn't, you know, it's honestly, looks like it's tracking even worse than I would have imagined

in terms of performance. Like, this is another movie now that is going to be like a sub 10 million

dollar movie. I was just thinking about the fact that like, I'm not aware of any pushback from

face back or Facebook or meta. Like they have just, it's to me, it seems that their strategy is

like this doesn't matter. And we don't have to deal with it, which is probably for their purposes,

the correct strategy. But that's quite an indictment of this success or import of the film.

I am, I'm reading here their market cap is $1.84 trillion or the eighth most valuable company

in the world. That's cool. So I use it every day. So yeah, I'm in Instagram user.

Yeah, October. It's been up and down for us. Yeah, some struggles. Yeah, some struggles.

It's going to turn. Is it? Maybe not next week. What maybe not next, maybe not Monday.

Next Friday. Next Friday. Okay. We have something next Friday. Legacy sequels,