The Last Temptation of Christ with Jamelle Bouie

If I was a woodcutter, I'd cut. If I was a fire, I'd burn. But I'm a podcast, and I love.

That's good. That's the only thing I can do. Thank you. That was the one I figured you would do. And I think it's a very good

uh, Willem. I was doing older, Christ Willem. I was doing older. I'll admit it's hard to do young Willem. I'm something of woodcutter

myself. Something of a woodcutter myself. I feel like I lost it on that one. Yeah. Is that always funny? I think it is, right?

Even though Marvel tried to ruin it by obviously like making it like a plowsline in the Spider-Man movie, they can't ruin it.

I'll say part of what makes it funny is actually, I mean, as a line is funny, but it's the face he's making. Yep.

The kind of like very should have like, well, I'm just your friendly neighborhood. Norman Osborne. We, we did a, uh,

Remy Spider-Man with you, obviously. It was one of those things that Remy just understood of just like when to ask Willem

to photo smile beyond that as as Spider-Man has been back in the discourse and people talking about the new movie, people, you know, will always post the the fight in the first

Spider-Man. Yes. Where they're just fucking wailing on each other in the church yard or whatever. Right. And people are just like, nothing looks like this anymore in these

comic book movies. They're just being the shit out of each other. Yeah. And you're like, yeah, that rocks. Yeah. But take me back. Return. You know what else? I mean, the thing we were surprised by

rewatching that movie is there's no fight in that film that lasts longer than like 90 seconds. Like Spider-Man 2 broke that wall of, oh, shit, they're a map, they're

amounts of money now invested in letting these fight sequences go on for 10 minutes. And when you got to the subway sequence, it felt thrilling. Yeah. But

that church fight is so short. Right. It's just brutal and it's direct bang bang. It's it's brutal. And it feels because the brutality gives it like these

real stakes. Like, oh, he'll kill Spider-Man if he can. He'll he'll he's crazy. I'll say this. But I will say also this. Yeah. When the military is like, we don't want to do your

goblin glider. And instead we have like, and then they roll out the worst guy you've ever seen. Yes. Herendus. He's like this.

Some goggles. Yeah. And they're like, we're going to find Norman Osborne. I also, I'm like, oh, guys, I built this company.

Yeah. My thing is objectively better than this thing. Yes.

Wait, are they just doing the coup as he's crazy? Is that what it is? It's like, you're kind of do great. I'm gonna tell you this. You got kind of

like a little defo vibe that's unsettling everyone. It is I didn't foresee William, uh, Norman talk, but I should have. Of course. Yeah. No, because it's it's

obviously. Well, Defo gets used so much now the last 25 years as a villain and or an old coup. Oh, he's a rent a

coup. Right. Aquaman was kind of like, it's sort of almost coup, but it's the rare like he's not neither villain nor

coup. Yeah. That's not tempted at a at a Gary old man Jim. Yeah. Mentor. Right. Right. I would, I mean, I would cast, I mean, speaking of old

Cude, so much to make an old prospector movie cast for them to vote. Wow. That's the prospect. Fine. Live action. What he's

Roundup put William Defo in a fat suit. Have him placed in key Pete. He really is. He's going. Coup mode. He's going

Coup mode, but this is to say it just is wild to watch this film from 1987.

1988 is it not yes 1988 and to be like he was perfect as Jesus. Yeah. Well, I mean, so beautiful. Yes. My

understanding is that's where says he had seen him in platoon. Correct. Yeah. Where he plays a very sensitive

right. He's like an innocent. That almost right. Yeah. And spiritual. Right. Yes. No, that's that's a good point. Like

it was a different Willem. But part of him in platoon is like, is this guy a little scary? There's even

it's stepping into that which this movie is in a way in a really smart way. Yes. Of course. Absolutely. Is

he crazy? The whole thing is and I God, this is going to be like a blasphemous episode away. I know. But

like obviously one must consider if Jesus Christ was was mentally ill. Like if if if if one not not in this

movie so much, but yeah, that's it. Well, some of these miracles I watch I go Jesus, you're crazy for

that one. One of my favorite Wikipedia articles because of because of the image they use one of my

favorite Wikipedia articles, mental health of Jesus. He looks sad where they have picked a very sad

15th century painting of him looking at that. That's very such a frowned. Yeah. The question of whether

the historical Jesus was in good mental health is a subject of consideration for psychologists,

historians and writers. I mean, I guess that makes sense. I'm you know, I'm willing to grant Jesus

good mental health. But I think of like authors of the Christian Bible who were clearly in saying I'm

thinking John a Pat most who wrote the revelation of saying John, but we know as the book of revelations.

What do you mean book of revelations? That's just yeah, it's really normal. Blockbuster shit.

That's just great. I mean, I I imagine we'll talk about this a ton. But one of the things that I

actually find really interesting about the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness

of the ancient Near East. You said this. I noticed this on the letter box. Yeah. It's like

making it an alien place in an away. And one of the things that's true to fact is that there were

lots of people yeah, who were like, I am the Messiah. There were lots of people who were like crazy

things are happening in the world around us. It's clearly the end times. I am the Messiah. Yeah.

And when we meet Jesus in the film, we're meeting them constructing a cross for the crucifixion

of one of these people. Yes. Right. And that's that's the immediate anger that they start the movie

with Jesus doing something that his disciples would find unforgivable. I prefer to the Mel Gibson

Passion of the Christ thing where Jesus makes it seems like is it the first chair in existence?

Oh yeah. Where you see him kind of knock a chair together and he's like, hmm.

First lady, he invented chairs. Yeah. Anyway, moving on. That's part of the mechus is here, right?

That you see Jesus making the first chair and then it turns into the first lady. Here was a

obviously that was a chair heavy film. It's crazy. The guy who made us his chair got crucified

for the chair. No, no, no, the chair was good. The chair was good. The chair was pretty good.

I like you saying that and I was I watched I will admit I watched this movie twice last night.

Oh yeah, man. I watched it and then I saw the criterion. I had their commentary track,

their vintage commentary track on the criterion channel and I said, let me throw that on.

And it's intercutting between Cox, Shrader, Scorsese and Defoe. What were you about to say, David?

I'm just watching the chair scene. It really is like I fucking invented something cool.

Proud of eating a table. It's a chair. That movie is so bananas.

Did stools exist but not chairs? I don't know. No one had thought to put a back on a stool.

That's my question. So it's major innovation. When were chairs invented? Was it the legs? Were the

and then just around 20 and 100 BC. So no, they beat Jesus. That would be Jesus to that one.

Trader said this thing people evolved stools by adding a back. That's how the chair was invented.

That makes sense. Mostly for Pharaohs though. Trader said this thing that if you read of that time,

people believe they were witnessing supernatural things on a near daily basis. Yeah.

So that was part of the weirdness of the time. What was the supernatural stuff that we're seeing?

Jesus ripping his heart out. That's a crazy thing. No, I'm sure. You know, right? We're talking

about like the weather. We're talking about animals. Know about science. Sure. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know what they would have been seeing but Trader's read on that is right. The thing about

the movie is that I actually wanted to try to do some research on this and I couldn't find

anything but it clearly isn't formed by sort of modern biblical studies. Like just as someone who

studied religious studies in college, like there's a lot. There's a lot in here that's for,

I guess someone read a book about first century Judea before they did this movie.

Well, and also that Scorsese grew up obsessed with biblical epics. Always wanted to make a

biblical epic. When he originally planned this movie, it was supposed to be more of a classical

biblical epic. And then there's this blessing and disguise of being told, you can do this right now

if you can make it for seven million dollars all in. Right. And whatever was 45, 50 days of filming

or something like that. And he had to scale it down and it becomes a small town movie. It

becomes a ground level movie. Yes. Which I do think changes the way these stories are told.

I think it's so much better. Because even most most modern faith-based tellings of the Bible

look closer to this than the 40s and 50s epics. Right.

Right. It looks closer to this. Yeah. In a weird way, when you think about this being like the

most sacrilegious movie of all time when it was released, which is crazy to me, but I'm so happy

you have this take as well because I was watching this and I was like, am I just dumb?

Am I just dumb for thinking? I get what they're coming for.

For 90 minutes is lighter on sacrilegian. It's the last hour people were more upset about that.

They were more just upset when they heard about it though. It's not like they watched the movie.

Right. Yeah. Even the last hour is only sacrilegious if you're an idiot.

I would agree with that, but I'm no expert on sacrilegious. I probably live my life being very

sacrilegious. I'm the most sacrilegious person alive. But I did think watching this. This feels

very respectful to Jesus Christ. This makes for my guy. Jesus Christ movie. Yes. That is for sure.

This movie makes me pretty on the side. But you know what? It's also a movie about how people

really got riled up about Jesus since he was around. And so I guess it's not surprised that people

got riled up because it's like, yes, see people who have been fucking riled up about this.

Jesus makes people feel a little bit. Talking about him riles people. It's true. And we're going to

have zero trouble talking about him today on blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

I'm David. Wow. This is a podcast about faith. Sure. About deep spirituality and about

filmography as director to a massive success early on in their careers are given a series of blank

checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear. And

sometimes they get denounced by the church. Baby. Sure. This is the second time. Martin Scorsese feared

for his life. Third. What are we talking about his general health or just kind of like people

being after him or you mentioned? Okay. So if we're talking about his general health, this is like

the one million. Yeah. He seems to me to be quite neurotic. A little sickly, a little neurotic,

did too many drugs. You know, a certain point in his life. What's the other?

Well, I guess there was a lot of hand-ranging around taxi driver. Sure. There was someone. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. And then what was the Academy Award ceremony? Oh, it was the Raging Bull year.

That ceremony happens the day after the William Henkley.

Oh. So he was freaked out. Yes.

He was going to get attacked next. Yes. That right. 1980 Oscars are even are delayed because of

the assassination of Rampdon Royale. Oh, yeah. Okay. I guess I kind of get it still.

I agree. I agree. I think people should chill out. I think Martin Scorsese is good at making

movies. Yes. And we should be grateful that he makes them for us. I mean, I don't know if the

podcast can handle that kind of incendiary content, Griffin, you saying he's good at making

movies? I mean, come on now. I'm ready to to rouse some rebels here today. I will also say I

had this thought while watching the movie. The fucking co-honies on him to make this thing. As

much as I just said, I think people's outrage around this was kind of stupid. This is like,

you knew what he was fucking getting into. He spent 15 years of his life.

I know. I know. Tellting at this windmill beyond the fact that this was just going to be an

impossibly difficult movie to make for an asthmatic. That's sand.

A horrible condition. True. I just can't think of a modern filmmaker who would

take this big of a risk. How do you see this film before, Greg? I had not. This is my first time

watching. Okay. And as well, I see you had seen this film. Yes. I've seen this a couple times.

And introduced our guest place. This is a mini series on the films of Martin Scorsese. Of course.

I think makes good films. Crazy boy. It's called podcast fellas. It is not called the podcast

temptation of pod. No. Casting the podcast. People wanted that. But today we are talking about

bringing the podcast. Bringing the podcast. I mean, bringing it up. I love that.

But it would people would think it was pretty absurd of us to name our

Murens Scorsese series after bringing out the dead. As much as I love this film.

That's what it's called. That's what it's called.

That's what it's called. That's what it's called. That's what it's called. That's what it's called.

It's who we are at our core. Today we're talking about the last temptation of Christ,

his most controversial film. I suppose. I don't know. The Cundan maybe because of the Chinese

government. If you're going by pure numbers, I guess you could go for Cundan. I don't know how

many actual Chinese people were mad about Cundan. I don't know if it really reached the general

pop. But I'm sure we'll get there. We'll show up in Shanghai. What do you think about Cundan?

I'm not sure. It was a he has people protesting outside the theater movie though. Yeah.

What was I? Was there protests about a movie in the last couple of years?

I remember being at Lincoln Center and like there were some nuns protesting a movie.

It was like six nuns. Yes. It was like really? Oh, it was Benadena.

And I was like, oh my god. I was not like, I disturbed it all. I was like, you're mad about this.

Like there's so much to be bad. I think we made this point in our episode where we were like,

it kind of shows that they just can't be bothered anymore. Yeah. There's like six.

So it's been like, don't have, you know, tits and a Jesus movie. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you guys

do your thing. I'll see you later. And we're hoover and said, don't worry. Give me the money. He's

going to be a normal movie about none. They will wear clothes over their brush. Give me the money.

No, they don't just get into the teacher on display all the time.

Um, so we're here to talk about the last mission. Christ. One of my favorite Marty movies.

Jamel Booey. Big movie for me. Oh, yes. Great. Jamel Booey. A friend from New York Times

returned to the show far too long. It's been a minute. What was the last episode?

The hunt for red October. The hunt for red. That's a pretty good movie. Yeah.

Very similar films. Very similar films. Well, I mean, I, I, I took years. It's, yeah, true.

In late 80s. Yeah. The hunt for October. I think it's 90. I think so. Yeah. That's

what's right. Yeah. I check in. I was going to be the discord and stuff and people were like,

what is Jamel going to be back? Who obviously be back from master and commander?

I don't know about that. No, no, no. I think it's funny. That sort of like, well, he did hunt for

red October. He's got the other one. Ocean movie. They're making you the boat guy. He went

under the sea. Now he must go. Yeah. On top of the sea. Yeah. How many more boat movies are

in our future? We'll do Tony Scott Crimson tide. Yeah. You'll do the entire Venom trilogy on

Patreon because you're our chief Venom correspondent. Chief Venom correspondent. That is one of my

proudest bit runs we've ever done on the show, not to pat ourselves on the back, but Eddie Brock

reporter. Oh, yeah. People ring that up all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we need

him back right now. Eddie. Yeah. He blew this white. Look what's going on. Like, it meant putting Eddie

with like, he's got you know what I mean? Just matching those wits. Like, that'd be fun.

Oh, God. Eddie interviewing lettuce. What? Let me ask you one more question. Why are you giving

people diarrhea? Making everyone poop? Pete, Pete, uh, where are the missiles at?

Where are the missiles go? Just point them. My point amount to me. I had a friend who had the

poop thing that the lettuce thing. My sister had it. Yeah. You're sister out of tune. No, we'll credit.

And I was like, Oh, man, what'd you eat? And she's like, well, I went on a hike and we ate

some lettuce out of a bag. Oh, come on. I was like, wow, that probably might be the culprit there.

It was not the cleanest like detective work in possible. I couldn't even like, I went to

Taco Bell. And like, you know, got like a lot of stuff. I was going to see a wrap or whatever. I don't

know. I know Taco Bell was affected. Yeah. But do you think Taco Bell was actually quietly

celebrating being like, it's not just us anymore. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. It's so fucking

leaves. That's not our fault. We've, we've actually moved down the diary here right.

Things. I mean, I said this before. Not on this podcast, but I've said in places.

It Taco Bell gives you diary. You're not eating a fiber. This is true. It's, it's, it's so

often the case that it's right. Like the mistake was made before. Yeah. I haven't had Taco Bell in a

while. I get. So when I go grocery shopping on Sundays, I talk about right by the grocery store.

And I just go by myself for my, my Sunday, my Sunday treats it myself. Yeah. It's Taco Bell

What do you got? I get a chalupa with beans. And I get either a cheesy or did a crunch.

Yeah. With beans. I always be getting everything. Right. Right. Or I get, if you get like a,

a bean and rice and cheese burrito, you can get it fresh, go style, so new cheese and they put

like the salsa in there. And then you can ask for a grilled. Oh, and that's pretty good.

The cost of my ability has been there in a while. Yeah. Yeah. I think I need to, and the menu

hasn't changed much. Right. Like Taco Bell sort of. They're probably throwing things on. I mean,

there were stuff that got backlash for being pulled from the menu that they've started working

back in. They're doing a lot of throwback menu stuff. Yeah. Some classics coming back.

God, they always have us on the treadmill. They did. They do. They do. Here's what I tried the other

day that was very good. The Tahin cheesy, Gordy. Yeah. You know, I saw that on their website.

Yeah. Yeah. It did look pretty good for the listener at home because we're not a video podcast.

What I just saw is Ben did a sort of a three sets of eyebrows. Hit the seal.

I don't know that. There was a lot to see. Ooh. It was good. We're all. It's like instead of

Doritos Locos. They just they're just jangling keys on us. You could do that. You can sell.

You're smiling. Yeah. I've never seen a smile.

Hey, listen, man, I just I just want to live moss. That's all I want.

You can do it. We're trying our best to live moss as the world is not moss right now.

I wake up every morning and I push myself to think outside the bun. That's all I do.

So this is an episode on the last temptation of Christ. We're talking about last

temptation of Christ. It's a big movie for me. Big like David Watchen in college while he was

like studying the Bible as literature. Okay. Where I was like, this is my favorite Marty.

I'm so clever. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm making fun of college. David.

Sure. It's not still your favorite, but at the time I think Goodfell is his the best

courses. Yeah. As I get older, yeah. I'm sort of like, fucking some of these things.

Good. Good. That's how I feel about taxi driver. That's fine. I think those are both right.

Right. He's yeah. This is a this is right up there for me, but I think it's a very special movie.

And this movie I've shown to friends over the years. And I think this movie is it's not like a

slog exactly, but it's a bit of a slow starting movie. And you're in it for a while being like,

wait, I thought this was controversial. And instead I feel like I'm just watching a Jesus

biopic. I'm just watching the Bible. And then of course it has, you know, the the last temptation

of Christ happened in the in the last act of the movie. And that's intriguing. And then the end

comes. And I've had this experience with a few friends where they are suddenly like very moved by

and struck by the end. I find the ending so incredibly moving. It is so transcended. I think it's

one of the most transcendent things he ever captured. And I'm getting worked up just thinking about

it. And I listen, I listen to Peter Gabriel's score for this all the time. I also think this is

influential film scores ever. It totally is. I think this is also like, and we haven't maybe

been talking about this because we've mostly recorded so far 70s Marty, I guess. Now we've done

mostly 80s. We don't have the 80s too. Right. This will this will finish the 80s. Right.

Relatively in order. His 70s movies to me, just getting, you know, it's it's Mean Streets, Alice,

Taxi Driver, New York, New York, and I'm counting Raging Bull. Like they all feel 79

parking. Partly it's the deniro, you know, he's running through a lot of them and like street

level, raw, right? You know, like even though New York New York's a little, you know, you know what I'm

saying? Yeah. Yeah. And then like his 80s can and which I love so much, which is King of Comedy

after hours, color of money and this. This feels it's such an 80s movie. Yes. Yes.

You've got one other credit. So much cocaine. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, the cocaine is running.

I'm trying to kick it. I guess it's more 70s. That's more 70s. It's like Raging Bull is him kind

of being like, okay, I got a yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. And but this is like even though this film is

obviously an ancient period piece, it feels so 80s to me in the best way. The score, the cast,

the weird like eclectic, you know, the special effects like I love all of that about it. And I

love Marty's 80s because his 90s, that's where he's like, you know, Baroque, right? Like that's

what's like goodfellas, Cape Fear, Casino, Age of Innocence and Cundoon are a little, you know,

playing the studio game a little more, but like bring up a depth of movies that are just like

super high emotion, long, crazy, you know, and then. So I kind of I'm very fond of his smaller 80s.

And then 2000s is prestige. 2000s is the Oscar chase. It's right. It's it's Gaines and New

York Aviator departed. That's it. I think that's his entire.

The Shutter Island. Shutter Island's 10 or 11, right. And then like his 2010s are like

beyond Baroque. Shutter Island. Yeah. You go Wolf of Wall Street. Again, silence. That's sort of

the, sure, the one, you know, an Irishman like that these are like where he's like, you can't say no.

Like I can do whatever I want. Every movie's three and a half hours long. Yeah.

The performances are so dialed up. Like I love these movies. Yeah. Yeah. They're great. You know,

what's your what's your Marty history, Jamal? My Marty history. My Marty history is just years ago.

Maybe 10 years ago now. I just sat down. I was like, you know, I'd seen Goodfellow as a bunch.

But I just sat down and was like, I'm going to watch every single Marty Scorsese movie. You're like

David where you like a watch project. Yeah. So I just over the course of that year. It was 2017.

I just watched every Marty movie and came away first. I mean, this feels, this feels,

it feels so cliche to say or it feels, but I just like, Marty Scorsese is great.

It's really, I came away thinking, you kind of get canceled on a set of two with this guy. You

me to Marty. I've put it this I had a similar experience recently. I went through a big Duke

Gellington thing. I was just listening to nothing but Duke Gellington for months. And at some point,

I just thought to myself, I was like, Duke Gellington fucking rocks. And like on the one hand,

it's like, of course, of course he does. He's the most influential American musician,

arguably of the 20th century. But the scale of influence and the importance can sometimes

lead you to almost underrate these people. It's like when you drink a really cool glass of water

on a hot summer day. Right. And you're like, wait a second. Water is fucking awesome. Right.

Like I take this for granted. You need to adjust the glass a lot. I think I think Marty gets

taken for granted. Yes. Taken for granted. Sometimes that we have we have this we have this guy

making movies. Yes. And then if you just sit and watch his stuff. Yeah. You're like, it's remarkable

that this man has this longevity. Yes. As produced this much excellent work. Has this much to say

and listen to me. Maybe I need to listen to some Duke Gellington. You really got to. I don't

like that guy. Anyway, so that's basically my like my history with Chris as he is. I spent a year

watching all his movies came to really love the work. The last temptation is one of the ones

that I was particularly struck by. Both as it could grew up going to church. So many still kind of

goes to church. And but also it's also from the level of my main knowledge of the movie was

that it was controversial. Yeah. And then to go in and actually see it and just to kind of be like,

I don't understand what's controversial about this. You if you just like heard about this movie

like on the street or whatever. Sure. You were like, okay, so it's about like Jesus and he's like

rolling big dice and he fucks hookers. Right. It's fucking fatty. Yeah. I spoke to this like,

you know, drives a big car. Like where they're just like, oh, is he just like, you know, gangster movie?

Because they're just making it sound like it's like, oh, it's disgusting. What? Like, you know,

it's like this filthy movie. Sure about this hard film. Right. Jesus drives a big car.

That was one of your eight examples. He's like a gangster in a big car. You know what? What?

Like a mini-coop. Certainly. No big. I'm sorry. We can talk about, but had you seen this movie?

No, I've never seen it. What's your relationship with JC? Yeah. Your dad's your dad raised

you kind of like no religion, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Totally atheist. I've never really

been to church. I've obviously been for weddings. Yeah. I've never sat through. No, but if you try

to cross the threshold, you throw down by the threshold. That's true. I've never been able to actually

get through the door. Yeah. Right. And a voice. Yeah. Yeah. You shall not pass. But I do come from

a Catholic family. Right. Yeah. Mom, side of the family, extremely Catholic. Almost a saint in your

in your lineage. There's almost a smell. There's like trying to get that miracle. In my, in my

who is he? What's his name? Father McGinley McGinley McGinley McGinley McGinley McGinley.

McGinley McGinley. Michael Johnson. John C. John C. McGinley. One of the great JC's.

McGinley. They're like the original scrubs is recognized as a miracle. The reboot.

We're waiting to see if the Pope approved. Yeah. He's blessed. Yes. He's currently blessed. We'll see.

You know, fingers crossed. Yeah. But my dad was such extreme atheist that he also really was

against me learning anything about the Bible. So really all I know is from that rug grad episode.

Yep. Oh, yeah. They have a Hanukkah episode. The Maccabees. That's how many people I got.

They're like ancient history lessons from like Arthur,

rugrats. Like what that rugrats episode might be one of the most important like

modern Jewish texts. But they have the little like the little sort of beddling hats.

We were just talking to a friend of the podcast John Bass the other night. Uh-huh.

And we were comparing stories. I forget what I said. But the moment in your childhood that you

felt proud to be a Jew for the first time rather than like kind of embarrassed. And he was like

rugrats Passover. I mean, that was the turning point. The 90s are very heavy on like let's actually

have sort of Jewish characters. Yes. Say they're Jewish. Right. Right. And then he lands has that too.

And piss their pants and fall down a flight of stairs. As I have always had two pickles. He's a

hot guy. Rugrats is is very it's it's it was a big win for the people. Yeah. Rugrats is good.

That like rugrats. I'm just trying to ruin that again soon. Like Ryan Gosling will make a rugrats

movie or something. They rebooted it with hitmaker. They did. Yeah. It's like completely over my head.

We really yeah. Uh-huh. They did a CGI rugrats. That's our friend Tim Simons was in. Who is he?

He was Angelica. No. Was he drew pickles maybe? Well, what can I possibly?

Anyway, I'll just say that now later in life, I feel very much left out from these stories and

these reference points. Yeah. But I can't really bring myself around to reading the thing.

Crack and open the good book. It's really hard to be. Yeah. It's long too. Yeah. The basic

construction of the old living earth as we learned on liquid swords. Yes. Um no, no, no, no, no.

Last track and liquid swords Bible. Oh yeah. Jim, you read the Bible or at least. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a raised religious. I was raised religious. I'm an African

American from the South. I was raised religious. Um, my parents are from the South as well.

I grew up going to church every Sunday and then took an academic interest in in

I Christianity in college. So I have more than my fair share. I mean, it also just like by virtue of

being somebody who studies US history and like early American history, you kind of have to be

somewhat fluent into a twine in the Christian theology and like the Bible, just because like

that's a major reference point. Like you can't you kind of can't properly understand

17th century America, for example, if you're not like at least somewhat fluent in

proscenism, Calvin, it like you need to know something. So yeah, that's that's that's that's my like

religious background. So I just like knowledge of the Bible over the interesting thing about this

movie. This is very Catholic. Yeah, it's unsurprisingly. It's despite, I mean Paul Shreighter wrote it

and it was a Dutch Calvinist Calvinist, right? That's Calvinist, right? But there isn't there isn't

but and it's written by a Greek. Yeah, I think a Greek Orthodox. Yes, right? The novel. I know

it's a Greek person. Yes, the original blog. Like the Shreight, the Shreighter of it is far more,

I think like the vibe and mood sort of like, you know, when you have when you have Jesus

riding on the ground with the voice over, but how is how his life is terrible and he's tormented by

his own mind? Oh, yeah, little Shreighter wrote this. Yeah. Yeah, man in a room. But the aesthetics of

it are extremely Catholic.

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What do you make of? And then we can talk about this movie. This is where I ask anyone who's

about the thing Bible. Because it's crazy. You read that thing? Griff, no. I haven't. I'm like Ben

where I feel left out on this part of culture that most people just kind of have in their back pocket.

We were, I would say, like in honesty, a fairly agnostic family. But felt that need to go through

the Jewish tradition. That's what my family did too. Exactly. So I went to synagogue a fair amount.

There were years where it was only on the big holidays. There were years where my parents were

trying to be the type of family that went every Sunday. Because there's a show of

shelalment. There's a kind of a, yeah, like, unity element. But the Old Testament I have in my head.

Call the OT. I'm sorry. The OT. Yeah. Because we have to call the original trilogy the OT.

Oh, yeah. That's the most important. Which is my oldest. Of course. Well, ironically,

my Old Testament's the prequel trilogy, the PT. But yes, no. So much of the story of Jesus,

I just, I only know in sort of like truly like comedy reference points.

Right. Right. Like enough to make my way through an improv scene.

Jim, how does anyone deal with the fact? Because I didn't realize this. So I studied the

Bible sort of like in college. Like that there's the Gospels, right? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,

Matthew, Mark, and Luke are all like, yeah, this is what happened. Yeah. We all basically agree.

And John's like, no, no, no, different baby. Yeah. My, my version is different. And everyone's like,

and that's, you know, that's, that's the story. And you're like, wait, what do you mean? That's

the story. They disagree. It's, it's, and they're like, I don't know. Like that's just how it got

written down. Growing up, there was no sense that there were tensions in Magospa accounts. Right.

No sense that like, you know, the Paul, the Pauline epistles are a lot of ways like a fundamentally

different thing than Magospa. Like there's all treated as just a single unified whole. Like this is

the Bible. And there's not really like temporal or like theological. This thing just made. But of

course, as you point out, yeah, like John's just different. Like Mark, Matthew, Mark, and Luke,

there's, there's a, I'm not sure if it's still hypothetical or if they know it existed, but they

can't find it. But this basically sort of like a gospel that does not exist. But there's enough

similarities between the Mark, Matthew, Mark, and Luke accounts that, and even like language,

that there's assumed to be, it's called Q, like a, a, a missing gospel. That is maybe the source text

for these other source, the source source. Right. The source that was written by someone anonymously.

No, it was written by someone. We just don't, it's like, it's, yeah, it was, it was, it was,

it was written, it was written, it was written to torment Picard. Oh,

God. Oh, yeah, that's true. Right. He was, he was, he was, he was, he was,

fingers, someone would get a cigar and it'd be very funny. Where funny, huh? But, um,

and I believe it's like, Mark is chronologically believed to be the first gospel written.

Right. Uh, uh, then Matthew and Luke. Yes. But then John, but then John's just completely

different. And even like, philosophically, it's, I mean, John feels influenced by his

riddle, like the Nostec traditions that pop up, uh, in the, in the century or so after the death

of Christ. It's like a very, it's a very different thing. Uh, but I, I, that's not something I

knew until basically like I took a class on sort of like the historical Bible, right? Like,

let's unpack this thing as like a piece of historical literature. I just, I remember this is in

that, uh, that great graphic novel, blankets. Remember that book? Watch my favorite books of all time.

Unsurprisingly. Right. Where it's about how Craig Thompson has this moment where he starts like

getting more into the Bible, like, or into religion, and gripping. Yes. And starts asking those

kinds of questions and the, the priest is like, yeah, that's very, it's very interesting. And like,

let me tell you more about it. And yes, like, let me tell you the, and then that's like shatters

everything for him. Wait a second. So you guys know this, like that, like, different people

wrote the Bible and like that it's, you know, kind of a, and then he's just like, he couldn't get past

it. Like, it's, yeah. But, um, I find the Bible so interesting. I find JC pretty interesting.

Chazay. Uh, and I find this movie wonderful. But like, it, but like, it's just like, it's just,

I get, I immediately get so, as I guess my brain is like, just so caught up on the history of it,

where I'm like, why did he catch on? Like when no one else, you know, like caught on in the same way.

Like, why was this it? I had a, I had a professor in college who this was like one of her

questions to us that was like, it's kind of an unanswerable question. This is life is brief. And

obviously his life is a rebel is even briefer. Right. Yeah. Uh, but it's, it's, that's like the

question. Like why, why this guy? You know, there are a lot of, and as you mentioned, the film

shows this, there are a lot of messiahs hanging around. A lot of people, it's a hot time. A lot of,

you know, Messianic cults, um, all sorts of things. And this is the guy who catches on such that

like, it would be in a couple hundred years, the religion that develops out of his life and

teachings become like the official state religion of the, of the state that killed him. Right.

Like we're pretty quickly, right? Yeah. And like I was reading about the first. So this,

in this movie, like when Jesus gets old, right. And then there's, they're burning down. Think,

you know, there's this moment kind of late in the movie where people start running. They're like,

they're fucking, the Romans are fucking everything up. Uh, that's like the first Uday in rebellion,

which is sort of like this big moment where the Judeans like rise against Rome and get crushed.

And it's sort of the beginning of the end for like Judea. Like before then, Judea was this place,

you know, where the Romans were in charge, but they were kind of like, do your thing.

And then after that, it starts to be over. I was in Rome and I saw the, um, the arch

that depicted them attacking Jerusalem and taking all of the treasurers back. They destroy

this. So Rome and all this shit. Yeah. Yeah. But like, so I'm reading about that. And then I'm sort

of scrolling back and I'm being like, so where's Jesus in all this? And it's like, that's 35 years old,

but like, there's nothing in the historical record basically beyond like, yeah, we also killed

that guy. Yeah, I mean, they kill him and then they're like, Oh, and it really caused this a lot

of problems. There's my understanding is it like the historical record. There are, there are

the existence of Jesus, the tested to by basically multiple, there are multiple resources. They're

like, there is this guy, his name was Jesus. He was from Nazareth. He had a following behind him.

He was kind of crucified, crucified, but, but you know, yeah, he was kind of weird. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there was like a wreck like the things around him. Someone wrote in a big

tab of like, we strange guy. He taught me it was okay to be weird a lot of ways. He did go

on. He didn't. He did. He did. Jesus made it weird. He's a little bit of record or what

happened. There's a lot to basically say this guy existed. That's like actually not really

debated anymore. Right. Just as a historical man. Yes. But it's like, yeah,

he wasn't of any particular significance to Roman authorities. Right. It's not like

missives are being sent of like, oh my god, we should not have crucified this guy. Everyone's

mad. It's starting a religion that's going to fuck us up. It's so fascinating about the Pontius

pilot. I was just about to say, yeah, which is just treated as like, oh my god, what's this next

meeting? Right. Can I say, I mean, the first time I saw that movie, I was so struck by that

performance. Bowies incredible. Bowies. It's like five minutes. Yeah. And Bowies just, it's

exasperated, tired bureaucrats. Yes. Like somewhat superior in a way that really works.

And it's not an affordable council. It's like, he's taking one meeting in a side room with this guy.

Yeah. And he wants to help. He wants to be like, dude, come on. I don't know. There's no reason for

me to have to kill you here. Right. You know, you can go home. I want a three day weekend. You

want a three day weekend. And now say what was straight coming so many grew up going in church.

And the Christ stories I was taught at Pontius Pilate is like a great villain, right? And sort of

portray him in this very humanistic, recognizable way as simply a person who he is a bureaucrat.

Nothing more, nothing less. Was really relovatory to me. And then Bowie, Bowie just has like this

look of both sort of, I, this is not a part of my job that I particularly like.

Kind of compassion for the guy, but also sort of like, oh, that's what you want. That's what you want.

I am going to speak out of both sides of my mouth here because like my initial thing is,

it's stupid that people got this fucking offended by this movie. On the other hand,

versus what you guys were saying where you watched it. And for the first time, up until the sort

of dream ballet sequence of him imagining what his life could be or being shown some quote-unquote

version of what he lives that way. Yes. Yes. I think that what the movie suggests is that like,

he actually did live an entire life. That entire thing happens. And then, and then at the end,

he was like, you know that's Satan, right? That little girl, that's the devil, bro. Straight up.

I was clocking things throughout the movie starting from the beginning that I'm like,

if I held a certain set of beliefs, and I was so strident in them, I would be offended by this.

I get the small things that this is doing. All the small things. All the small things that don't

feel designed to be incendiary. But like that, there are people who want Pontus Pilate to be a

mustache twirling villain. The only way it makes sense to them is that this was a targeted campaign

against the most special man who self evidently was special from the very beginning and who never

had any doubt about anything. From the degree to which this movie so early on,

DeFos' performance is just caked in him being uncertain. Yeah. Which to me is interesting.

It is the most I've ever been able to connect to Jesus as a character depicted in a fictional film.

But if your belief is, I need this guy to have been perfect placed on earth,

immovable. It's the kind of performance that is usually given that is incredibly stoic and serene

and straight arrow laser focus. It's from Heston, not I am Jesus. Totally. It's a lot of posing and a

lot of, you know, trying to make my chin look square than it is. He had a great chin that guy.

He had unbelievable jaw. But this is, you cast DeFos and back to sort of our early discussion

at the beginning of the episode. This is a guy where there's going to be a Nate sort of tension

within the performance. Even if you get the most calm, kind of beautiful,

era of DeFos you possibly can get and you put him in the lowest register possible. There is a

little mania inside that guy. Yeah. And there's an itchiness inside of him. Itch is good. Yeah.

I'm going to open the Nasi. Do it. 1955. Two years before his death, the Greek author, Niko's,

Kazan, let me get this right. Kazan Sackis. I get it my best. Published the last temptation of

Christ in his homeland. The novel presented a deeply human Christ, contemplating a normal life

spent with Mary Magdalene and was instantly controversial. Greek Orthodox church,

got tritex, communicated. I think he might have died before they even got that done.

But they were mad at him. Yeah. And you know, this is the guy who wrote like Zorba the Greek

like other famous works of Greek literature. Like he's not like a nobody, but he thinks it was his

best novel. An American translation was published in 1960. In 1961, Scorsese, who is an NYU student.

I think maybe at that point he was about it, given it by a classmate. Just mentions it to him.

He says he actually didn't read it until David, uh,

carodine gave it to him on the set of boxcar bertha in 72. Yes.

And then he says he didn't even read it really until like the end of the 70s. So he had the books.

He had the book. It's not the commentary that it took him decades to learn how to be a good reader.

I'm sure. That he was just like, I grew up in a household without books. My parents both dropped

out of grammar school. I learned everything visually. It wasn't until later in my life where I

started knowing how to sit down and actually like focus on a book. Um, there's another book that he

likes called King Jesus by Robert Graves. I do not know the book, but uh, which was another one he

sort of thought about in terms of like, if I ever make like a biblical epic, um, but he couldn't

stop thinking about this because it in the battle between the spirit of the flesh is something he

really understood. Let's also call out like the human, you know, accessible neurotic. Christ, you know,

Barbara Hershey gives him book in 72 John Karrion, but yes, sure. He worked. Barbara Hershey's also

married. I guess. And Hershey says, you better let me audition to play Mary Magdalena. He did?

Well, well, we'll get there. Yes. Okay. But it's planted in his head by her. Yes.

Um, so he likes the book. Uh, this is a Jesus you could sit down with and have a dinner or a drink.

So, you know, which is really, I want my Jesus. I'm gonna help him in the purview of my Jesus. Yeah,

especially when I got a pick between two Jesus is November. And the Jesus I want, I can never

be a ball. I don't want the Jesus orders the Gray Pupon who's so stuffy. My Jesus doesn't wear

earth tones. No, no, no, well, 2000 election humor for you kids up there. And my Jesus always shows

off his pen with pride. Uh, the first, uh, Christ movie, he remember seeing is the robe. Uh,

that's the first Panavision movie. It's early like 50s biblical epic. But that was the first

wide screen film. That's cool. Yeah. Yes. The first film released in cinemoscope cinemoscope.

There we go. Um, so he's long, you know, he's struck by this from a young age. I don't know if

you know this, but he grew up Catholic. I do. That's come up in some of the earlier episodes. But

Paul Schrader, as we already pointed out, was a Calvinist and he was sort of intrigued by like what

could our sensibilities together produce, right? Like Paul can strip stuff away.

It's a long book. If you wrote it all down, it's probably more like a six hour movie. You know what I mean?

Like, so it's like, I needed Paul to kind of like, say, sort of sand it down.

Because Jay Cox ultimately ends up doing a lot of the work on this movie along with

what he says he doesn't get credit. Yeah. So Schrader says in the commentary, his big thing was

to sit down with the book and identify the themes, identify the big scenes, identify the recurring

patterns. Um, and then I think a lot of the more detailed work came from Cox and Scorsese later.

Paul's first version apparently he has Jesus taking his heart out. He's a literal version of the

last supper in terms of swallowing the flesh and blood of Jesus. I took that out. Um, he says that his

most important contribution was the outline. He sort of like listed everything in the book.

Like three or 400 scenes. And then just like kind of use that approach. He sort of like was like,

what's the most relevant? You know what screenwriting stuff. Uh, Mary Mother of Jesus is a bigger

character in the book. That's not really in the movie at all. I feel like they don't really address her.

It's uh, uh, uh, Verna Bloom, who's married to Jay Cox. And who's in, um, after hours. Yes.

Has been important figure throughout Swarce's life. This is her last performance. Maybe.

I can. I think there's something kind of interesting to me. Yeah. Essentially. Yes.

Herndborbe Hershey do have similar faces. And they are styled somewhat similar. Yeah, sure.

I think there's a really strong resemblance between the two of them. That's interesting.

Okay. So he's got a script. Uh, they give it to Irwin Winkler, uh, you know,

an artist, they turn it down. Uh, King of Comedy is released and Paramount signs on board,

which we talk about this. I think after hours episode, uh, and his pitch to them. And so it's

Katzenberg and Eisner before they go to Disney, they're in Georgia Paramount. And he says like,

I want to get to know Jesus better. Uh, like, you know, first I was going to be a priest. It didn't

work out. Katzenberg and Eisner essentially give him the F. Murray Abraham. Like I don't see a lot of

money. Uh, you know, they're not like, this is blasphemous, but they're just like, you want to

get to know Jesus. That's not really like lighting the world on fire. Yeah. I mean, like how much money do

you want? Uh, and that's where it's, of course, as he starts to be like, I could make an

an intimate character study. Like, don't worry. I do not need like a biblical, a, a, a amount of money.

But even at that point, it was going to cost almost twice as much as I think 13. Yes. And then it

goes up to like 16. Yes. Uh, Jay Cox comes aboard. They thought the script was too

already. So they want him to make it a little more regular. Um, the budget starts to go up.

That religious groups start to catch wind of what this project is. They start to get angry.

The protests were so immediate that they scared off paramount from making the movie the first time.

Um, Aiden Quinn, of course, is the original choice for Jesus. He's got a Jesus. He look.

But is I think way too obvious? Sure. Yes. But I mean, he was a good actor. He looks like a

painting of Jesus. Yeah. But I don't think he would have had the inner conflict down. Sure.

Yes. I mean, I don't want to be rude to Aiden Quinn because I'm like, I mean, I've never seen

Aiden Quinn performance where I was like holy shit. Like for the music. Good. I don't know.

Um, attending Quinn in ledges of all. Yeah. Um, magic. Eric Roberts, which would have been insane.

If you turned it down. I would like to watch the movie made with Eric.

Yeah. That sounds kind of fun. Actually. Uh, he turned it down because he thought it was too risky.

They did consider deniero. And traitor said that deniero's response was I don't think I can wear

a robe. And he's like, I think Bob might be right. I think the audience might not buy.

So it all starts to fall apart. The right stuff, which is a winkler production, is a huge bomb.

That's a great movie. Yeah, I love that movie. But it's a big long movie. It's an expensive

movie that didn't work. And they, so they cancel last temptation days before shooting

is supposed to begin according to Scorsese Sting was also supposed to be a conscious pilot

in that version. He always had the British rock star thing in mind. Yeah, there's a lot,

there's a lot to that. Right. So then, okay, the French minister of culture gets involved.

He's trying to, now he's like trying to find money anywhere. He can't, right?

This is a tough point in his life. He says at one point he told Katzenberg, I'll do flash dance too

if you let me make last temptation of Christ. Yeah. You know what? I'd watch it. I would watch the hell out

of Marty Scorsese flash dance too. I mean, back color of money is sort of him being like,

okay, like it's like a fancier version of like what's it like so cool I can do, right?

DiPalma, all right, this is a quote by Scorsese. DiPalma and I were talking about one night,

he just shows Scarface, Hollywood audience and like, and he said, what are we to? Are we going

to become teachers or something like are we done? And we were at Hugo's restaurant and I realized

honestly, I didn't know what else I could do. I wish I'd learned to write music or paint or express

myself in literature. I just don't have anything else I could do. I find that so relatable. I don't know.

I also have a case of the night's term like, why do I do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, big time.

I wish I had other skills. Yeah. They make one effort to shoot it in like Russia with like a

$5 million budget Egypt at one point. This is what I'm talking about the Cajones though.

We're just like everyone is telling him not to make this work. His life would be so much easier

if he gave up on this. He is so fucking driven. He is this thing through. And so he makes after

hours, which is a great movie, but it's obviously him being like, see, I can make movies quick.

I can be responsible. Right. And then he makes a color of money to be like, I can work with stars.

I can work with studios. I can make a hit. Yes. And then he's got good fellas percolating.

And that looks like it's going to be his next book. That's the Nick Pilegie book wise guy.

You know, that he's working on that. And then he starts talking to Mike Ovitz, Paul Newman's

super agent. Yes. The King of CAA, obviously a very important person. And Ovitz poaches Marty.

Yes. From Harry Uppland, who is like his old classic agent. And suddenly Universal is interested.

You know, Ovitz works his magic. Ovitz has some kind of deal with Universal or at least some sort

of ongoing conversation to bring them a couple of movies. I think he's able to sort of bundle

a couple things together. Exactly. And so Universal, according to Marty, is basically just like

do what you want. Like the budget has to be fairly low, but like no notes. And then he shows them

the movie and they like the movie. Yeah. They're like, we're moved. It's great. Yeah. He has a

surprisingly, this is the underrated part of this. There's actually surprisingly chill part.

The making of like once Universal's aboard Tom Pollock had read the who's the head of Universal

of the time he'd read the book. He's like interested in religion. He's an admirer of Marty. They foolishly,

I think this is the most that everyone's being foolish with. I think we're going to move people

with this. Yes. I think this is going to work. And obviously it's a great movie. You know, like

they start to ignore the sort of pressure of like religious groups are going to be mad. Right.

They start to pick no, no, no, no, this is good. Just just just a just a

interjects real quick. Just thinking about the outside world reacting to this. It's like an it's an

odd period American history and American culture because like the age of the biblical app like

biblical apps are made anymore. No, that's not a decade. Not that. Yeah. Not cool. Not cool.

Probably uncool. It's not something that happens anymore. And so you could imagine,

you can imagine exactly this movie being made like the 60s, but like something like this being

made in the 60s. I don't think it would have been as controversial. No, precisely because the

biblical epic already existed in like the public mind. It was a close enough to that being

a string line of yeah. And so people would just be like, oh, this is just like a weird biblical

epic. Totally. Not like anything to get too upset about. It's it's it's a right. Yeah, I can

ignore it. I'll just go see Ben Hurigan. You know, just being the first major depiction of Jesus

in movies in decades. Yes. Yes. Yes. puts a lot of pressure on it. And then simultaneously in the 80s,

this is like you have the rise of the moral majority in the religious right. Yeah. So it's sort of

like a new, a newly organized with like aggressive, aggressive and organized like religious

conservatism. You also have televangelists. You have these people have platforms. These people

have broadcasting on a daily basis into a larger audience. Unfortunately for Marty, it's sort of

like a perfect storm of the public isn't prime for this. Yes. And the people who are super

attentive are insane. Yes. Yes. Can I throw out? Unfortunately. Yep. Tom Pollock who you mentioned

was head of universal at the time. Tom Pollock was producer on draft day. But most notably, he

started out his career as an entertainment lawyer. And the thing that he made his career on is he

is the one who got George Lucas the Star Wars deal. Okay. He is the one who got the if you're not

going to pay him his quote, he owns sequels and merchandising for the most famous right. So he's

responsible for the contract clauses or the greatest entertainment deal of all time. And was

what's a very cool guy. You know, I mean, he fucking green with this. That's right. To my point,

the other things. Of course, as he said, and why Barbara Hershey kept on coming up in his brain while

he was making this movie or developing it beyond the fact that she was one of the people who gave

him the book was that he had to approach once they finally green lit it such a small number.

Making this movie, Korman style. He said, like, I never would have been able to make this movie if

I didn't have my Korman background, right. And he experienced a boxcar berth is specifically that he

drew out every single storyboard, every shot of this movie. And he timed out how long they could

take to get that shot. Like this shot is going to last this amount of seconds. And I'm allotting

us three hours to get this shot. And if we're going over three hours, we have to pivot in some way.

We have to figure it out. Like he had the whole thing diagrammed out so cleanly because he had no

room to fail on this. And I'm sure it was stressful. J. Cox just to close that loop fought for WJR

Jeep arbitration didn't get it. Says he's very proud of his work and he did a lot of work on the movie.

That's cool. So yeah, Daniero was never really interested as we said. He was also very

interested in Christopher Walken who makes a ton of very similar. Very similar to. And

it's same with Eric Roberts. I feel like those guys were, you know, Aiden Quinn, it's like too

normal. Walken and Eric Roberts is like too weird. Yeah. And just like, okay, we found it.

Is this good? Like what walk into almost a little bit too on the eccentric size. Yes. Yeah.

Eric Roberts potentially too evil. Right. Yeah. Aiden Quinn had been in this movie called reckless.

I mean, Aiden Quinn's obviously very young at the time, which I've never seen. It's James

Foley movie that I think is like classic horny 80s thriller. Okay. He dug him in that. He

liked his intensity. But obviously the studio is like the fuck I've never heard of this guy.

William DeFo obviously is in platoon. He's also the villain in to live in Dianna Lane. She's

incredible in. And so those are the things. Of course, as he knows, and best from

Willem is obviously like it had never crossed my mind to play Jesus. But Marty's passion was really

infectious. I believe it when he says this, a very difficult role. Jesus. He said,

an interesting thing in the commentary, which was, are they all together in this commentary?

Is it one of those kind of separate tracks? It's one of those because it's like an early like 90s

piece and together razor disk commentary that's been repurposed. This weird thing criteria

used to do where they were record like five different conversations and edit them together.

But he said, the first time the project was coming around the Aiden Quinn version. And his rep said,

like, Scorsese wants to do a Jesus movie. He's like no interest in that. Don't submit me.

The second time he comes around, they're asking for him because his career is obviously boosted

up so much. And he went, I don't think that makes sense. But why not? I'll take a meeting with

Scorsese. And he takes the me on Scorsese and Scorsese tries to explain to him what his version is.

And he's like, it sounds insane to say. But like five minutes in, I was like, I think I'm the only

person who can play Jesus that the way he explained it within minutes he went from being like,

this is probably not something I should do or would even know how to do to feeling like he was

the only person who understood what he was trying to get at. So then he's committed. Yes.

Bowie. What film did it see in one day? Yeah. They said, one day rehearsal, one day of film,

Harvey Kitell and Barbara Hershey were part of previous projects like he brings them back.

And her, she's kind of having a career resurgence at this moment. He does make Barbara test because

he's like, I don't want to feel obligated because like you and David gave me the book. But

she tested for the role that was fine. I mean, Kitell is obviously

bananas casting is sort of the most mocked part of the movie. I feel like it doesn't

get a razzine. I think he's got a razzine again. Yeah. I think it's mostly for the wig.

Like it's like the razzie was for the wig. It's like, I mean, he sounded like a New Yorker.

Well, that's how Judas is in the Bible. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. I'm right here. Judas is in Brooklyn. Yeah. That's why I was assuming.

So I thought that was an authentic capturing of the Bible. 100%. There's always

eaten. But Kitell sort of, Kitell's energy is like aggression. Yeah.

Like it is sort of the jealousy, the weird kind of like loathing or whatever. Yeah.

Of course, as he said that it was like I wanted him to embody like violence and anger. Yes.

Yes. It's like it's, I mean, even the red hair in that regard, like it works. It's like it's a great,

I think it's a great performance. I think so too. I'm not sure the movie quite works without

without Judas being there. And you know, the point towards the end of her Jesus, like you need

to betray me. Yeah. You have to do this. Like doesn't work unless Judas is this almost like

diametric opposite of Jesus who comes to be devoted to it. Right? It's totally completely,

obviously, I knew nothing of Judas beyond like he's the guy who betrayed Christ. Right? They made

it make so much more sense to me. Yes. Right. But it's like we all have to fill a role here.

Even that must be your role. Touchy for some people. Right. So we're going down to Judas this much

more beyond just being a betrayer. The, you know, Marty says that the thing that attracts me to

the story is a struggle between the spiritual and the physical and all these things.

And the story is about taking seriously the fact that Jesus Christ was a man. But like one,

one consequence of that is it takes seriously that everyone in this story is just a human being.

Totally. And so like human beings are not one note villains for the most part. And what makes

people interesting is that they are tested. Right. And that the best people among us are able to

resist and persevere. And the most tragic people among us like succumb to these things. Right.

That the testing is a big part of it. If you remove the testing from it, then people become

uncomplicated. Right. I also, this is my hottest take on this movie. Uh oh. Here he goes.

I think this movie is fascinatingly structurally so similar to New York, New York. Okay.

But it feels like a corrective where he figures out obviously in an entirely different story,

how to pull off that type of movie, which is you have like an hour and 45 minutes to two hours,

where there's a lot of kind of repeat performances going on. This movie is almost a musical in the

series of the miracles and the set pieces that he's doing. And the central relationship between

Judas and Jesus where Judas is trying to suppress Jesus or at least be like, oh, the fuck down man,

stop it. But you're making the person who has the light within them be the prominent character,

rather than letting the person who's trying to stop them over roll the entire movie. And then

much like New York, New York, it has its last 45 minutes that are like, well, it's all been building

to this. Yeah. Like now we go into the inner life and the inner mind and explore all the possibilities

of what could have been and what have been and what are to then get to the final like tragic

hammer blow ending. But the central relation transcends it. It feels very similar to me.

And Kitelle's presence in this feels like a better version of what Jimmy Doyle is trying to be

without trying to make him charming. And I think it's the modern energy. And this is the other

thing he said was you had so many biblical epics that sort of like take the posture in the language

of Shakespeare and giant humongous sets and very pronounced, you know, King's English and all of that.

And it makes it feel very, very distant and theatrical. And at his whole thing was like, this has

to be street level. These have to sound like guys talking on a street. This is, we just, you know,

this debate is so happens every single time someone does this and Nolan had this happen this year

with the Odyssey where people like, well, I don't understand they say fuck and dad. Yeah. And Nolan's

like I like anything apart from it. Of course, as he says here, like unless they're speaking

air, I'm a we're wrong. Like we already blew it. So yes, I want to like, you know, you've got

Harry Dean Stanton doing kind of his like little sort of Appalachian lilts, right? It's sort of

the Baptist like thing. He said the big thing was to give let the Romans be British. Yes. Do

the Ben Hur thing of the Romans are British. But otherwise everyone brings their own America.

Yeah, it's it's very funny to be that that seems to be what what we've decided in movies is that

your evil imperial power. They're British. Of course. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what what the

world is. You're in space. Yeah. In space. Yeah. In ancient ancient Judea. Yeah. Does not matter.

Doesn't matter. They're all British. It always works. I really always work. Victor Argo, who I think

is phenomenal in this. He is so he is so so he's so he's Peter. Yeah. As essentially like a

fucking steve it or from like red hook. Right. It like has like a sort of fisherman kind of like,

you know, accent. I was and I was going to say has the energy of someone leaning on you to pay

back your debts. And according to Scorsese was smoking a cigar all the time. And then when they

were start filming, he's like, Oh, right. And he would have to take the cigar out of his mouth.

DeFos said that he was a big smoker at the time of filming. But beyond the fact that Scorsese so

as Madigan does want people smoking around him. He was like Jesus shouldn't smoke. He was like

will him if people get fucking pictures. Jesus just ripping sicks. I mean, isn't that a thing

from the Gibson movie that we're like, everyone still does the memes of like Kavisl in Jesus

makeup covered in blood just kind of sitting on set like drinking a mound. He's got a trick is

bound to wasn't there the one with Joaquin going around to smoke into sick. Yeah. I forgot that

movie happened. People forget the Joaquin played Jesus in. Yeah. Of course a movie called Mary

Magdalena. I've never seen it. I had no nothing about this movie where he was in love with

Ernie Mara. Yeah. I was going to say just as a quick a quick thought and I get this I kind of

already mentioned this earlier, but it's relevant to this. The the movie both that makes the or

Scorsese makes the choice of having everyone kind of sound like modern Americans sort of at least

try to capture the sense that these are ordinary people. They're like talking and like, you know,

vernacular language like they're not it's it is it is not Shakespeare. We're not trying to elevate

things. But then also it does is in tandem with the world presented is very strange and alien.

100% with like customs that we are impenetrable to us. It feels like most isolated. Right. Yes.

It feels exactly like most isolated. And to me, the alien this with which the world is presented

feels very like Robert Eiger's to me these days of like trying to take seriously the fact that

the past is truly different than what we experience and kind of put you there as much as possible.

They shoot in Morocco and Marty says like when they got there, he's like, I wish I had 10,000

extras like because this is so beautiful and like I could, you know, make you know, he thinks about

his epic. And then he's like, but it's on the landscapes. You go from village to village,

there's just a few people like that's what it was like. So there's the scene where the centurions

attack at the town center at like the marketplace. Yeah. And it's five centurions. You only

had five centurions. And he's like, this is all we got. He's like, great. This is what we're going to

do. Whip hand to five centurions attacking from this side. Then we're going to move them to a

different place. Whip hand different direction five centurions. And he reuses five centurions to

make them 25 centurions. You just never need to see them all in the same frame at the same time.

Michael Bauhaus, who's cinematographer, who'd already done after hours of them, obviously, is like

and who's his best DP is like it at it being a quote unquote poor movie like fits the subject.

I think it like worked for the movie better. He loved Pee Wee Herman. Marty square says,

Marty square says he loved Pee Wee Herman. He would tape, he would have tapes sent to him

of the show every week. This is like Albert Einstein watching Beanie and Cecil. This is the greatest

thing I've ever heard. He would have that he was so into Pee Wee Herman that they would send him like

pal tapes of like that week's show. That's so funny. Yes. And yes, to bring up something brought up

by Miriam Bell on our means for his episode. Yes, it shares a lot of locations with this star.

It was made around the same time. It does look very similar. Yes. It was shot incredibly quickly.

58 days for a big movie like this. He finds the experience for a physical, very challenging,

or whatever. But he says it was the worst shoot. Okay, so there's weather shit. It was bad.

It was it wasn't dramatic. And they had no rushes. They like couldn't check daily.

And he says he kind of did it blind, essentially. But he had it so planned out. It was his most

planned movie so that he went in with such a strong game plan, which was the only way to actually

get it done. And like all the stuff in the crucifixion, he could only be up there for like three minutes

before any of those actors start to go delirious. So that's like two days on the cross where he just

had to be so mechanical about what do we get him for how long. And basically the thing that's just

like the greatest irritation of filming is you go, okay, and we're ready actors and places.

And then the second the actors in place, they go, wait a second, we got to move this light. This

thing isn't working here. The microphone isn't turning on. But if you're doing that after you put

Willem to foe up on a cross, you're losing time rapidly. Right.

David. Yes.

No. Is that the CS cow?

He's not ever from her in a while. Yeah, she's reactivated because she's horny for chicken fingers.

Okay. She's excited for the streaming debut of Teenage Sex and Death at Camaiasma. Wow.

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So let's talk about the movie. Yeah. It's about Jesus.

Uh, is my friend Carolyn Prattie who's read the book. She's like the book starts with the

imagine a guy who sucks in his lame and he's miserable and everyone hates him. And then he goes to

monastery and like starts to freak it. I feel like the movie is a little bit more like starting

pretty much like he's he's kind of knows what to say. But he starts at a point where everyone's

pissed off at him because of him making the cross. Right. You know, he's uh, I mean, look,

there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. This is true. And this is the most important

episode to say that. And Rome was capitalist. No, I, you know, right? I don't, I don't know if I'd

say that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, I mean, you, you meet Jesus. He's not, I mean, he's not quite at

the point where he's like ready to begin the ministry. But he's like clearly like a tormented man.

Yeah. Who, you know, by his own account, uh, doesn't understand why he's being tormented by

God and just wants it to stop. He's like me. Am I crazy? Is this nuts? And that's where, that's

where I think, you know, DeFoe is right. The maybe he's the only guy to play this play this

particular iteration of Jesus. Because it's like Jesus, the character is like, am I going insane?

Right. Yes. And DeFoe, I'm either the son of God or going insane. What are you guys?

Yeah. And DeFoe, looking like he's on the verge of insanity at all times.

Correct. Makes that like sells it. He doesn't have to say anything for you to kind of get.

Oh, this guy thinks he's losing his mind. Yeah. Yeah. And it gets back to like what we were saying

about DeFoe earlier as even in his old coot era, like some of those old coots are menacing and

some of them are like the one voice of reason this character has in the world, even though they

seem crazy. Right. Like DeFoe at his most still has that wrestling inside of him. Right.

Right. Which is great. Yeah. I mean, it completely works for the character, but more like

Willem DeSavier. I just remember the first time we got Willem DeSavier. Thank you. I wanted to

give it a shot. What do you think? I think it was a wild success. I'm the Willem DeFence.

Yeah. I'm sure I think of alternatives to the savior. DeSavier. The lamb. I'll get the lamb of

God. Man, that doesn't want to do it too much. Delay, my God. Delay. Delay. What the lamb.

Delay. My God is fun. He does like really, really boring. My name is Jesus Christ. And I'm here to say

it's fun to be, you know, blessed me soon and I like it. I don't know. It's fun to be blessed for

me. Yeah. I don't know. He calls himself the king of blasphemy. He does. I mean, look, he's

obviously he's a troublemaker in the Jewish community of Judea, which is a client state of Rome

that's sort of run by the Romans, but like it's a backwater, right? That's the that's the history.

Right. Right. Right. Oh, is that of any particular importance? Right. I mean, that's the thing with

like people like Pontius Pilate where you're like, well, what does the record say? And it's like,

I don't know. That's some fucking guy who got that shit job of having to go there. You know what,

rocked Rome? That's what you want to be. You don't want to be all the way over there where there's

like scorpions and whatever. It's terrible. Angry Jews. Coffee snakes. And like, I guess like,

Jesus is part of like a larger Jewish rebellion, but he's just one element, right? And he's not a very

organized element. It's not even clear he's like part of the rebellion. It's just like he just,

like he knows people involved, right? It's like Judas. It's Judas who, you know, who Judas

calls himself a zealot, which is like kind of this is where I think there's like actual biblical

scholarship here because if I have this right, Judas is scary at which is sort of the traditional name

is scary. It is like basically a transliteration of like zealot, right? Okay. And he's like,

he is someone who's like sent to deal with Jesus because they're like, this is a collaborator

essential. Right. Because they have the zealots were an actual group of like anti-Roman Jewish

or Judean rebels. Right. And right. So like, yeah, he sent a film implies that they know each

other like they've known each other for a while. And that part of the issue is that the zealot

telling Judas you got to kill this Jesus guy for making the crosses and Judas, this is not on

screen, but you can kind of kind of guess is like, I don't want to, you know, he's fine. He's okay.

I can persuade him to stop doing this. And then he starts being like, yeah, I'm sorry.

Son of God, right? Like he starts to build sort of believe in him. He's an early follower,

right? Yeah. And we see him saving Mary Magdalene. And like, that's the beginning of him acquiring

more followers. I'm trying to try to even getting tempted in that first Mary. Well, I guess there's

a second Mary Magdalene thing because there's a scene where she tries to stone him or at least

cross rocks. So when so there when he is carrying the cross to crucify the beside the other

side that we need. She spits in this face. Yes. We meet her again. So he goes to meet her

after he's in a cave with the priest. He starts into the one priest. Right. And he's like, you

know, the priest, like, I've never met God. I like to meet God. And like, because the priest who

greets him in this place, he's like, you know, your brother greeted me and was like, well, that guy's

okay. It's been dead. Yeah. Very is dead. You are dead for a day. You are met by God.

And so this this sort of like, he's like, Jesus asking, what do I do next? And then he's like,

I'll go see Mary Magdalene. Yeah. Which the dead guy is Robert's blossom.

He's the old Jonathan Demi movies, but also of course, is the old man and homelop. Yes.

Oh, great. Yeah. The other crazy one is

is Zebedee. Yes. Yes. Is Irving Kirschner, director of Empire Strikes Back.

My favorite moment of the movie when Jesus is like, Zebedee, that widow you've been with

and someone in the background goes, you know, he yells, Judith.

You know, there's a hole up there. The, the second Mary Magdalene scene.

What at first is just want to say, you know, the French cartoon, the magic roundabout.

What's that? The British British. What's better to say? It was originally French. Oh, really?

Yeah. The book is French. No, I think it was. All right. Now, oh boy. Now we got to go deep on this.

Yes. It used footage of a French stop motion animated show called Lim Minage and Shom-Tay

with completely different scripts and characters. So it is the British one that, of course,

the main character is Power Rangers, kind of, exactly. But the main character is called Zebedee.

I do know that with the guy with the mustache, the spring for a lower half of his body.

I think was voiced by Ian McKellen and the CGI. I mean, probably. Yeah.

Who ends every episode by going time for bed. And so that's where I learn the word Zebedee.

Of course, is the father of James and John, right? Like that is who Jez Zebedee is in the Bible.

But it is funny. He's played by Irvin Kurshner. Who, like, did he teach Marty at school too?

Because he wasn't, he was George Lucas's, yes. Like, like teacher at USC.

Right. But I think he had some connection with him, maybe just through George.

I mean, the whole casting of this movie is like a collection of like debut as an actor.

You can tell me that. Yeah. I just know all those guys cited him as being really good with actors

and teaching them how to direct actors better than others. The whole casting of this movie

feels like a Martin Scorsese. This is your life. Yeah. Like he's pulling people from such different

directions. The great Andre Gregory. Um-hmm. He's John the Baptist one of my favorite scenes.

But like, has my dinner with Andre? Yeah, that's already come out. Yeah. And this is Post-Masquito

Coast too. Right. Yeah. Um-hmm. Yeah. So what did Jesus get up to? I'm trying to

never let them win here. There's, there's, he meets Magdalene. Yes.

And he makes you the Magdalene to prostitute. Yes. He's there waiting.

You just have men who sit like Chris Cross applesauce on the floor watching waiting for their turn.

Right. Yeah. And then he gets baptized. Right. Yeah.

So there's a point between that. I kind of gets a little hazy from you. But then he,

then he meets John the Baptist. He gets baptized. And then he goes into the desert where he

is tempted. He's tempted the first time in the book, uh, attempted by a serpent with, uh,

human breasts. Uh-huh. In the movie, it's more just kind of like some fire and a regular serpent snake

with a voice. Be very funny if they try to give the serpent human breasts,

lubis. I would be very into that. I'd learn a lot about myself. I do think Barbara Hershey's

fantastic in this movie. Uh, you know, it's not a gigantic role. It's probably the most developed

female role in the movie though. And she's great. Apparently the female roles were worse in the book.

My friend's biggest review of the movie when I watched it with her a while ago, because she'd

read the book. She was like, amazing. She was also like, way less sexist than the book. The book is

very sexist. Um, and even the angel at the end of the movie or, or the physical form of Satan,

disguises an angel as a boy in the book. Um, no, I just want to call out that Barbara Hershey

seemed because it is a big early scene of her trying to call bullshit on him. Yeah.

Before he wins her over and being like, you're just like these other guys. You came here to watch

me fuck and you want to fuck me, which I do understand if you are a very literal minded follower of

the Bible. Could be a thing that like clashes against your very beliefs, you know? The notion of

even depicting a scene like that, but in a position. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, but I do think DeFoe plays

it as like there is the part of him that's like, God, do I just have to sacrifice everything?

You know, I think DeFoe does that really well throughout the movie, which is he's 90% sure

that he wants to keep going the way he's going. But also it's so fucking difficult. It's so

fucking difficult. And there's so much sacrifice. Yeah. Yeah. Much like the Odyssey, which I'm now

thinking about because of that comparison with the language. You don't hear like God talking to him.

Right. It's not this kind of, you know, like he's saying, like, I'm getting little bits and pieces.

Like I'm doing what I, you know, God's me in these different ways. Right. I'm only like a little bit

ahead of you guys. Like I only like sort of know the next thing to do. The desert stuff is so striking.

Um, I'm sure it was a pain to shoot, but like I just love the plainness of it. It's just like empty.

It's rockier, you know, than like your classic desert. You know, it's not your like, it's not

lords of Arabia. Yeah. Agribons of sand. Right. It's not ag. It isn't Agribon. They thought about

filming an Agribon. Yeah. Yeah. But couldn't get the permits. Well, the tax incentives

they're actually really bad in a weird way. You think they'd want to get more production.

You know what happens to me? What? Like I'm out there in the desert and like some fucking lion is

like, Hey, you want some money? I'm like, yeah, please.

I'd be so bad at this. But then like then then he, uh, he does take his heart out

in front of his followers. That was Schrader's biggest idea. Yes. Yes. I don't know. What do you

guys make of that scene? Takes out like a rubber heart from his chest. Well, let's say in the

reality of the movie, the heart isn't rubber. I know, but it kind of looks, you know, yes.

You're like, Oh, damn, like he has like a little, a little prop heart. But we've also seen a lot of

blood in the movie up until this point. There's just constant. This was a thing that I think Cox

said in doing his research. He wanted to get in there, which is just like, they're just greats

everywhere of blood flowing of animals being slaughtered. Yeah. There's just like blood constantly

running through the streets and the walls and everything. So you've seen like internal organs

falling to the ground already at this point in the movie. Correct. We have them wrong. You know,

like that's not in the Bible. Yeah. Jesus doesn't like pop his heart out and go like see.

Yeah. I'm a magic baby. That's a Schrader invention. He does other magic stuff. Yeah. I think

it's kind of a Schrader. No, I don't know. I don't know if it's in the book. Maybe it is.

I don't know. I'm watching it. I don't think so. Here's my problem. The heart is beating.

You want the classic like the cartoon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just,

it would hit harder for me if that was happening. Then he returns. And of course, does the most

important thing in this movie, which is the GIF. He raises a cup. Is he just a GIF? Oh, dude,

it is that is a classic. I'm like, I've seen it in a while. Jesus being like, given the toast.

You two brother. Yeah. Basically, like just a, it's a very funny image to me now. I mean,

it's not intended in the movie. It's funny. Obviously. He heals a blind man. He heals a blind man.

He tinnitus. The canonical miracles. Right. He turns water into wine. Which I do.

I better check that water. You guys like it. It's fucking water. I don't know. That's

seen. That scene is so funny. It's very good. It's so funny. And they drink to

these like fuck it to wine. Jesus Christ. That's who did it. Well, yeah. It is so funny that

it's the one scene where Marty goes into like Shine Box Red Throws. Right. Where it's like two

two guys on the street fucking with each other.

He's like, do me a favor, check that wine one more time.

Check that water one more time.

Do you think it's crazy that in the middle of all that,

Jesus did raise a guy from the dead?

Yeah, I came out of a cave being like,

Whoa, it does feel like,

it does feel, the miracles feel,

you know, water into wine,

kind of closer to a parlor trick.

Healing the blinds, that's pretty impressive.

I give that like an eight out of 10.

It feels like, you know, his power level is just explode.

Oh, when he's,

right.

When he's raising people from the dead,

he goes, it's like he's going super say in super Christ.

Do we need to nerf Jesus's power levels?

That's power scale, Jesus.

You know, Jesus versus super burn.

John burn will come in right here.

He'll reset everything.

He can leap over a building.

Like he's not, you know, super naked.

How are you going to be able to beat Jesus with a curvy?

You know what I'm saying?

Like that's not a fair matchup.

Thomas Aranya plays a play Lazarus.

Just shout him out.

He's also in on for a October.

He's a million things.

It's one of those guys.

They said they didn't have the money to dress that scene

in a way to get across how disgusting.

Right. He's not like totally right.

It could be, you could go more kind of zombie with it.

Right. So this is their like pragmatic problem solving of like,

okay, so what's the way we visualize how disgusting the space is?

And they were like, oh, it can smell really bad.

Every actor just needs to be like, oh, P you.

Right.

When they throw the folder out of the way.

It's really funny to watch just 40 guys going, yeah, stinky poo poo.

Oh, my God, the greatest miracle I've ever seen in my life.

After that is the temple where he trashes the money,

lenders and all that.

And like at this point, we're 90 minutes into the movie.

Yeah.

And I really feel like the first time I was just like,

I don't, we're just watching the Bible.

This is just, I'm so surprised that anyone thinks this is controversial.

Jesus is great.

Sure, there's some nudity.

Like that's like the extent to which I've been like surprised by,

I'll say there's one scene.

I love this movie.

There's one scene that did make me go, I,

that dialogue could be a little better.

And it's when he is first teach,

before he, he hasn't had disciples yet.

It's just him and Judas.

And he's speaking to a group of people,

some of whom become disciples.

Right.

And he's about to basically do the beatitudes.

And he doesn't quite say like the meek will inherit the area.

He doesn't quite say it.

But like the rhythm of way,

like the foe is delivering lines,

feels like he's about to just like say the line.

And I had a very short of like,

yeah, this is the Jesus biopic.

It's like Paul McCartney, singer guitar in the window.

Right.

Exactly.

Like love me do.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Why is that guitar gently waving?

There's the counterpoint scene that's so well done,

which is the let you,

who's without sin cast the first stone scene,

where they never say it.

Right.

They never say where they actually just show don't tell the idea.

Yeah, Jesus is weird because like,

I mean, Jesus was weird.

Listen, I'm,

No, you got it.

Keep going.

I'm the tell you was okay.

Jesus was alright to me, I'll say.

That's so true.

You read the, like some of the parables.

Good right.

Really good.

Ben, Ben's like bad joke to me.

Yeah, I know.

If you knew the faces Ben makes during records,

Some of the carables call you tablebook are very obvious

and resonant and our things essentially long blinds

of like you should be nice to people and love your fellow man

and help and there's the weird ones where you would be like,

If you plan a mustard seed,

where is a plant and people like should we write that down?

And he's like,

and they're like,

it's already down and like see like mustard.

2000 years of scottily debate be like,

I see like mustard 2000 years of scholarly debate to be like what is that fucking one about?

And he's like that's all you got I

Can you know it is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and put in his own garden

It grew and became a large tree and the birds of the sky watching its branches and everyone's like mm-hmm

And he's like and that and relish are the only things you should put on your hot dog and they're like Jesus hates ketchup

Oh, that's so trade-earned

Yeah, it's for children come on

Yeah, you got it. Yeah, you got it. Why didn't you guys get into mustard?

I always think cuz my daughter rejected mustard which is fine. They all five years old. They all day

And I'm like I get it spicy. I get it. I never I never I never I never I

When did I fall in love with mustard? I never I think I'm the condiments. I'm a subject of condiments. I

Never like mayo sure

And so I always have a place to give me some mustard right?

You you have to have a condiment on the sandwich you must and I was like well, I'm not gonna me

I'm I got mustard so I don't I've always like you got that fast

Yeah, but it felt like a process of elimination. Yeah, yeah, cuz I was thinking about how in Britain

You know the mustard is super spicy because they got that English mustard because like kind of cleans your sinuses out

Yeah, and so I think I for I sort of skipped yellow mustard

Uh-huh, and then later found like your your American hot dog

I never like that kind of mustard. I still don't like that kind of mustard

I think I got into it probably in my early 20s because along with horse radish

I was like should I keep this in the fridge to clear my sinuses right?

Yeah, and then I started putting it on stuff. It's good for that. Yeah, it's good for that. Ben you muster guy

I love mustard so good D. John. Yeah, my top. Yeah, yeah, great. Pupon president Pupon over here

We should have a fancy Ben is wearing a tan suit today. Yeah, and I look great

But I also got came around to it later in my 20s. Yeah, like I rejected mustard. I was only ketchup

Your 20s are for mustard. Yeah, your 20s are that's your mustard era. It's for experimenting

Your mustard maxing your musk

Mustard ball game. They will relish

We're gonna shot me

Around now is when her Indian stand shows up as Paul as well as not yeah, the sole is

Right, right, right, he's gonna have his road to Damascus later, right?

One of those things where it's like

Well, this heredin stanton belongs in the 20th century. Yeah, like where it's sort of surprising to see him in robes

Yes, but he also does feel eternal to me in some way and so full and

You know ring, you know his his his permanent wrinkles and his kind of like weird face like does kind of

Make him work in the movie. I don't know. It's it's not an iPhone face cast

But I did think it's a vinyl record cast. Yeah, they all have vinyl record face. Yeah

All of these people have have dropped a needle on on the record, you know, mm-hmm

But yeah, do you guys enjoy this you know this performance heredin stanton sure? Yes, no, I like it

I think I think when you I think when we see him again later in the film and he is Paul. Yes, I think that's great

I think it's a really great moment and sort of and you kind of need a very recognizable face for that. Yeah purpose

For it's sort of like you see him again. Yes, I mean even even when you mean the first time you're sort of like well

He must be someone important. I mean right there's a bit the purpose of casting someone as recognizable as heredin stanton like you know

This is clearly a

Significant person. It's also it's a straight-talk quality. Yeah, yeah, you know

This is a guy who can't lie on screen who who can who underplays everything

But yeah, this script does not have a lot of like and I'm Thomas and I'm always doubting stuff or like it does not I guess really

You know, it's sort of relies on it's on its audience figuring things out or not worrying about it

Like you're sort of like you know Judas you know Jesus you know Mary you can figure out that the rest were followers of some renown or what you know

Right mm-hmm

And if you know more about the the Bible you'll you'll probably recognize things

I do appreciate that it doesn't put like a point on things like you see you get the moment repeated to nice Jesus three times

Right, but it's not like

Telegraphed no, it's not like a zoom in zoom in

No, I don't know Jesus like that doesn't happen. It's just sort of like someone's like hey, I think that guy

I

Have Jesus it's followers. He's like no, I'm not no, I think I think I swear I've seen you with that dude. I know him

We all know

Little counter in the bottom of the screen. I'm friendly with him. I wouldn't say I'm friends with I haven't been to his hut

I don't hang out in his cave

Lazarus gets killed

There's the big fried in the temple things are popping off this guy just

I'm so it's a waste of incredible work. Yeah

Kind of the one time that it ever happened and they immediately undo it which I don't think is in the Bible either

I don't think it's in the Bible. No like that's like they kill him. Yeah, no, I don't they're just like you know

We're moving on this is like come out Lazarus is like all right. Let's keep the road

Yeah

Lazarus they don't just kill him they slice smoking like he's a fucking. Hey. Yeah, they got here

They do it's rough the movie is like you say griff. It's it's violent

It's not violent in the way of like a Marty movie can be like so insanely violent

I'm gonna kick him down guy in the ground

Perfectly the old time

Every time yes

Like what touching flesh like going all the way back and making such a journey to direct impact

Wait muscle these are these are cheap jokes of course, but it is the fact that it's of course as he directed

The local epic and then you know the rest of his movies

I do like when I want what I've watched this I do think of like it'd be funny if yeah

They were a scene of like Jesus laughing like the nearer on cave fear right just like at the temple going

Um

Right and that's when they have to arrest him

He's being too loud. Yes, right and that's when

I was like yeah, too and then it also does that whole thing with Mary Magdalens retainer

Yes, yeah, then there's the Pontius pilot, you know, which we talked about but is there more you know like we're just like total stillness again

Just a spare set well. We was such a good actor when I both rewatch prestige recently fucking rocks

He's so fucking good and it's the same use of him in prestige

It's like we kind of need someone who just communicates instantly weirdness and like you know authority

Yeah, like in this kind of peculiar way, but he knew he's sure how to not overdo it and it doesn't overdo it neither and fucking

Proceeds like doing an accent and he's Tesla he's kind of cyber truck

He looks awesome. He looks so good everyone cheering as he made comedy legal

That movie's about how you jackwood's trying to make comedy legal. Let's say it's the war

Make a legal yeah, say free speech. Yes

They should remake a

prestige bit about the Austin comedy

That's great. That's great, right? Isn't that great? Yeah, I'm yeah, no

I just find it so fasting that Bowie was able to completely tone down his rock star energy

Yeah, and just lean into the alienness and like you watch the man who fell to earth and you're a

Like well, of course he's great at this. This is the one appropriate time you could cast David Bowie in a movie and it's not

Distracting and yet every time he's putting in like a one or two scene role like this

He just fucking knocks it out of the park and he gives it an energy that no one else could

But it feels like he was a very smart actor like he really understood his moves. Is he the best rock star actor?

I think

Who are the competitors here? Mick Jagger made real movies sting Christopher Stofferson Christopher Stofferson James

But I do yeah, oh yeah, I guess I get more blue star actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah Bruce Willis

Yes, right any

Steven Seagull

I see of course. Yeah, Jared let on Jared let oh

Oh, that's not forget

No, I may if we're having the honest question. It's like the Beatles Elvis Presley

Mick Jagger but Bowie's a very interesting case of like he actually took these sort of like different roles Jaggers

I mean he's good in some like performance and

He could be good. You needed to craft around these guys right in the right way. I'm trying to think

I'm trying to think because when I think of musician actors, I actually think a rapper. Yeah, which which like they

Taken up rappers are basically always good at yes because like I feel like there's so much performance. Yes

Like that you have so much presence you have to have right even when you're like essentially performing in like the tiniest scale right right

How many rappers turned actors were bad is the question

They're all good. It's a good question. I just I just went to the 25th anniversary of Fast and Furious

Uh, re-release. I sure John rule wasn't like the greatest actor of all time. He had a little juice

Yeah, there was a reason they wanted him back for the second one and the greatest bag fumble of all time

Oh, as he says no and then they go like fine. We'll ask ludicrous and ludicrous is great ludicrous is great

I almost want to see like ice tea has like limited rain

Come on

He's got the hours he's got the hours

But ice cube is a very good act like you know like I scoop his given legitimately good

Yeah, most of is

Is a great act I mean most stuff should have been like a major start yeah

The mx is the rapper turned actor where I'm like I don't think anyone ever sat DMX down and taught him how to act

Right like and I don't think he was ever in like a particularly good movie anytime DMX is on screen

The movie he made I'm like I cannot take my eyes off this

Unbelievable couple good scenes and exit wounds which I don't say lightly like I mean like that's the sort of the example where I like right

You know like it's just kind of like I don't know just point the camera at him. This is gonna work like

Are there answers where we're just not thinking that I'm like is the game good, you know, I don't know exactly other people

We should Madonna Madonna yeah, who don't know shit. Yeah, it has given good performance. Yes, like she's kind of up and down

Portie love a very good actor. She's gonna say to you. Yeah, yeah, you have to shout out. Yeah, Cindy Lauper

I feel like never got her full what she I don't think I've seen some of you guys

Debbie Harry Debbie Harry

I mean like look you have to have stage presence like it makes sense. Yeah, sure. Yeah, keep going for me love

Forgun's Welk. Yeah, me love is a good actor me loves a good actor. Hey Tom weights Tom weight

But we love was more of an actor first sure. I guess music theater actor who then became yes, uh, his name was Bob weights is a great answer. Yeah, weights

And like the line from

weights is a good answer. I was giving me look like oh, no, it just lost his fucking mind. Oh, Ben. I was then what he's talking about. Uh

Tom weights might be the guy who challenges David Bowie in my mind. Tom weights very cool. If you look at the breath of the work

Yeah, and the directors he's worked with

Mostly did not take you know, they they work very well, especially in supporting roles in right

Uh character roles in his scene is great in this oh, oh just in Timberlake conversation over anyway, so back to last temptation of Christ

Yeah, well then they crucified Jesus. Yes

You know, they make him give them a crown of thorns, which I think is really rude

Just making care of the cross, which I think is really rude. I know it. I know it about these scenes. This is the part of the movie where

I really like his part of the movie and I really like that

Scorsese seems to linger on the composition a lot

Because they do look really incredible like the of Jesus being you know march down the corridor with the

Thorns crowds and yeah, there is a sense when he's coming in to Jerusalem on the donkey is a great sort of like composition as well

To be talk about the scene where he tries to convince

Judas to kill him. Yeah, like when he's having the dark night of the solar like it right before

I'm going to die. You should just do it. I need to die as a sacrifice. Right. Yes

But of course he sort of realizes like no, I have to be like publicly

A symbol like to well Judas Judas also is like can you imagine how bad my reputation would be in history if I'm the guy who kills Jesus

I'm not doing that now. I have to take one meeting

Yeah, crucifixion of bummer. You know what that happened in a year wait. Do we pass the last supper?

You got a shot the last I gave you the gift but no, yeah, that's pretty good

That's what he did he had a lot he had a it was a sater, but did they shout out that it's the last one? No

No, they were like we're gonna do this. I'm so full. I couldn't do another one of these. That's what you say

Yeah, guys, meet back here same time next week, right and so I get promise I feel so great guys. I'm gonna live forever man

No one's betraying like

On the cross no one's betraying me is such a funny thing to a number was such a problem

This is good and Judas Jesus is like why are you gonna betray me by the way? It's like what what's he talking about

I hope this doesn't get painted isn't onto a wall somewhere

I know it's suck to get walled. Christ is on the cross

Two hours and five minutes into the movie. Yeah, so it really the last temptation is really the last sort of half hour of the film

This is the happy ending sequence right and you know a girl approaches him and is like you did it buddy

Come on down like yeah, can I say real quick? Mm-hmm. There are things like I always expect this happen

I know it doesn't in the movie

On the cross there's there's two criminals being crucified with him with unshittier crosses

Like one of them is sort of like ha ha look at that guy is a king of the Jews fuck you

And the other guy is like, you know, will I be okay and in the can not economically in the lore

Jesus says, you know, you'll be with me and paradise and that's what's like his last blessing is to this other

crucified criminal which is not in the movie, but it's like it's part of the but they are there and they are there to see the other

Yes, this this this young girl is sort of like hey, gee listen to you this

Just like you know

God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac

He's seeing if you're gonna do it you did it

You proved that you were ready. Yeah, it's much like the binding of Isaac of sort of like yeah, okay

Then we believe you that you wanted to do it. Yeah, and so now you are

essentially

And here's Mary and you're gonna live a happy life. Yeah

And he does have sex with her which people were mad about

We will get into this in a second. Yeah, and then she dies

And then he just I just I mean

It's blasphemous. I suppose to compare the life of Christ in this film to the Star Trek the next generation

You can't not think of the inner light the most famous episode of this of that show has anyone

Okay, do you know what I'm going to go? You know, I start a guy I

Once you start explaining I think I will jog remember like start the Starship just like he's like hey, there's a weird beam

Picard looks at the beam the whole episode. He's living it in a

On a village a very simple life and then at the end they're like hey, what happened like you got knocked out for a second

And it's like this lost civilization. It downloaded its culture into you

Yeah, and you and he's like I just lived a whole fucking life like 50 years

And they're like okay, weird

Yeah, it's an amazing beautiful episode. What's a conception to I like just story of like right of someone snapping out of it

Yeah, and like the other person's like hello, and they're like I just was gone for 50 years. Sure

What wasn't there recently a story about a young woman who was in a coma? Oh boy

And she's similarly like a very extreme lucid dream of living an entire lifetime and then woke up

And then was like where are my children? That's the worst feeling. I don't I don't like that

deeply upsetting

But obviously profound and like and and like that's what happened. Jesus has an interlite he we watch him

In like you know, yeah sort of an accelerated pace like live a whole life and he's he's actually

And it's like I mean the interesting thing in the kind of the tale that this little girl is Satan is she's like you know

Mary is dead but like there's only one woman. Yeah, we just with different faces different faces

So just like find another one right first second. You're like our scurses. He's gender politics that bad

But no, it's like

Yeah, um, uh, but then he goes he goes to Mary sister of Lazarus. Yes, we we he meets earlier

They after he comes out of the desert after the first temptations

He meets her and her sister Martha and they bring him back to health and so he were in in Mary is clearly interested in him

Right, we returns to her and that's with her

That he has the family though. It's suggested that like it's like kind of a polyamorous situation going on a little bit

Yeah, well Jesus was poly no, I'm kidding. I don't

This is what I'm saying or it's is again so has everything we've said been offensive

Um, I think it's important though that it's not like his life is like perfect and a dillock

He has to lose Mary mag the law. He has a realistic ish although it's odd and fantastical in a way, but like right

It's that it's a hard normal life

Is that a life of a normal human being without this like fucking kids like coming back from like the market right and then you know, that's when he sees

He's now all preaching about him about the road to Damascus

And Jesus confronts and he's like I'm the guy you're talking about yeah, he's like I didn't I didn't I wasn't red directed

I'm a man right I'm just hanging out here. I'm just a guy

I fuck isn't there the thing to where he uh he does yell that

He says I fuck because I

That's sort of the implication of like this is imagining a world where like Jesus is myth

Exists but the real guy is sort of put in parallel with it right and then occasionally will just realize that that's happening around him

Of like people are spreading his gospel and but also sort of like Paul is preaching and like knowing particularly interesting

Yeah, that's true. That's that's they're not catching on it's not catching on yeah

So the message is out there with the absence of the sacrifice means it's sort of like you know

Well also when Mary Magdalene dies and he says like why can't we bring her back the way you brought me back

Right, and it's like no, it's not like this. This is God's will like she has to go you get to stay

This isn't a thing you get to horse trade about

Like he realizes the part of

the give of living a normal life is he's not in conversation with God yeah

And miracles don't happen. He doesn't get to negotiate with reality in that kind of way right

Yeah, when he is on his deathbed

Yes, and Ben we've talked about deathbeds before if you remember on our sense and sensibility episode deathbed the bed that kills

That is we should cover that movie on this show. Don't you think yeah, yeah, we can cover that someday who directed that John

Badam I just assume when you say deathbedness who we're talking about it was in the sense and sensibility episode at the beginning of the movie

It's Tom Wilkinson's character. I believe so someone's on a deathbed and Ben very earnestly said we see this old guy

He's on his deathbed and then we never see him again what happened

No, I didn't say I said he was in bed and we're like, oh, that was his deathbed

I was like no one communicated that that was the deathbed was it clear to me right? It was just a bet to me

Wasn't like made of skulls

Ben wants clear demarcation of what is a bed versus a deathbed which is a good point

You don't want to get into a deathbed by accident just because you're sleepy right that's true right never wake up

Ben just looked at me so seriously when he said right

And it's what I was saying and also people could visit you while you're in bed and you could have a conversation

That's totally fine. I know it doesn't mean that you're on your deathbed. It's true

No, but that guy was on his deathbed. All right. Well, well Jesus here is on his deathbed and he is very aged

Yes, and yeah, and they bring in Judas and then we'll know the guys then it seems like the rebellions happening outside

Right right here like you know, there's fire you're screaming and

The disciples come in and they all come in and they're sort of like heard you were dying one did wanted to see you been a long time

And Judas comes in and is like you fucked up

It wasn't supposed to be like this you were supposed to sacrifice yourself. You got scared essentially

I'm about to die and then you got off the cross. I did my part right why couldn't you do your part

And this is my favorite part then you like turns to the he's like then then due to Jesus like

I have I have a guardian gods and to guardian angel and Judas like looks over and he's like

Bro, that's Satan

Fix one look one look idiot. He's like I've never seen a movie a little creepy girl. Yeah, when he's 10 years old

Who's like really calm? That's always a bad guy. You're seeing resident evil. Yeah, you're the right

X-Men too

Come on

William strikers in your brain bro

He's made story bro bad

Jesus goes yeah, I saw X-Men too. Yeah, of course. I saw X-Men too

X-Men united and it was at the actual title or is that more of a promo it's the title is X-2

Title card in the movie is just X-2

But I think it's fun to call it X-Men Unite kind of but how united are they actually are fighting much at the time

It is weird that the movie goes into a 15-minute argument about the title of X-2

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And then so Jesus like runs out, you know being like I want to be fucking Jesus. I'm sorry

He dragged himself out. Yeah, and it's it's a great scene. It's also a very kind of like it's a wonderful life

See you know

Yeah, no

Well, well, I want to be close by

That cross looks fond of me

They do a rewinds like effects

They back then would be very blasphemous but good

Him like going like getting re-round black back onto the cross right

And you have that like

Marty zoom

Of him like back on the cross, right?

And he says it is accomplished. This is where I'm starting to freak out like and I'm just like oh my god

Then it you know goes to those crazy lights

And that was because in a camera man

Exposed the magazine to early. Oh, yeah

And it fucked up, you know the film, but it's like stand bracket shit almost

That's the thing I'm so and when they shot they were we're screwed because like willum can only be up there for a minute

And like it's so hard to shoot this shit

And then like they watch it like they when they keep keeps the damage take a seas like it's like his soul is going to have a whole

Yeah, it's it's it's perfect. I when I was watching this I watched this on Tuesday night

Was it last night? I was last I was a little bit less than that. I watched it Tuesday last night

And I had like do stuff from the house or have it on and I'm like paying attention and watching it

But I'm also sort of doing things or I can but this last 30 minutes. I'm just like transfix in that part

I'm like every time it moves me. It's crazy. It's sort of like really gets me. What's like the movie itself is transcending like the phone from the camera

It's like rising to that. It feels like in that moment that like they captured something

very real. Yes

And like it can't be expressed through normal beans and then yeah

And it is one of those things where I'm like if they could just tell all the people who were mad to watch the whole movie

But they got to watch it all they got to watch it all

Because they end really sells it. Yeah

um

The fact that yeah Peter Gabriel gum just popping off. Yes, he did the movie basically for free

Yeah, you know, because like Marty and every money and he was like it

I loved it

I brought in like voices from like all over the world like mixing all this music together

Stas passion music from the last temptation great work music. I listen to it all the time

Yeah, I do I list you a quite a bit too and I'm reading but like every movie set in the Middle East now sounds like this because of this

Score a little bit. Well, there's that two thousand zero where there's always just a woman going like

Yeah, exactly the minute they cut to like the helicopter shot of

Somalia or Saudi Arabia wherever

Usually the way it goes is it's like

Then like a cut this like a guy on like the street like kind of looking and then like

Don't do it. Yeah, you see like a market. Yeah, I feel like I'm in the

You know pitch meeting right now

But I like watch this and I was like oh, so this is where it all starts and then I go on to the Wikipedia page for the album

And it's like commonly cited as the breakthrough moment for world music in America

No, very much. I mean, I feel like is it like this changes the way people think of scoring film set in the Middle East

But this like popularizes new age world. Yeah, I mean along with like a grace land right the Paul sign up like that sort of like late 80s kind of like

Hey, man. There's music beyond European music class. When we like there's there's other continents out there

And they got their own instruments. I'll believe it when I see it

Um

Scorsese so this film okay in post production. Mm-hmm start to get a little bit of trouble. There's some demonstrations

They're editing the film they want to show it to some religious groups like to screen it

You know, it's a sort of like get ahead of things the religious groups don't show up

Instead the only people at the screening are Marty his crew Jack the Lenti head of mpa. I assume at the time boom boom valente

Paul Newman

He's just in town

And a man from time magazine

Then they finally got some religious people see it who are a little hostile but mostly are kind of into it

Um, you know the demonstrations are getting really ugly. There's a lot of anti-Semitism directed towards Lou

Losserman who's the head of mca who has nothing to do with the movie

You know what I mean like there's just a lot of general kind of like hate stuff happening

Shrater's viewpoint is like this is an anti intellectual wing of social and political Christianity

Like it doesn't have much to do with like Christian theological thought

It's what you're talking about of this sort of like weaponized political sort of wing of whatever Christianity that's sort of like becoming more and more powerful

um

The old Shrader script gets

uh sent around

Apparently that has something that sort of suggests that Jesus was maybe gay for a minute there or something and they get really mad about that

And they're like that's an old script like we didn't shoot that there's actual think all the secret gospel of mark

Which is like in a one of the apocryphal gospel text that was on ABC family. Yeah

That's just a terrible terrible drug by me. Can I get my all? Yeah, please and you could read that gospel on lipstick alley

That's right. It's correct. Yes. Okay. This is but is is that gospel does that have that has some just so it's it's

It suggests like you know that they have this like moment of ecstasy and like it's sort of like what does that mean?

And one suggestions immense sort of like an orgy interesting

But like that's I don't I don't trade it. I mean look if they ever want to like

You know sort of jazz up the Bible for like a new generator

For that in there. Are they sure wasn't like a literal moment of ecstasy like they took half a tab. Yeah half a tab

Yeah, it's possible. I mean just just the

The like we've said this a couple times already

But the movie really does take quite seriously the

Like it positions Jesus is being very strange a very strange man in that he's in age with the expectation is that the Messiah

Would be a literal king. Yeah a literal bot guy who would like kill the Romans and and right who would overtake and rule us all right

That's what people they were the expectation is that yeah, there's gonna be a Messiah is gonna show up

And he's gonna sort of like beat the Romans to death and establish a kingdom where we can live as we please that's leadership basically in those days

Yeah, I mean him and kind of the one way and and the movies

Jesus betrayed us like no, it's you know the kingdom is already here. It is spiritual

It is like us loving each other us like you know accepting each other as like fully each other

It's recognizing God's limitless and universal love and everyone's like that's the craziest thing I've ever heard

um and

Makes people die like they need to thirty two back

But like we should be open to rethinking some of this and in the movie shows like Jesus is so persistent about this

It convinces people people are persuaded. They believe him and they follow him

And it's it's a very powerful depiction of both like the radicalism of the message and the way that yeah

Then and now it's sort of it's kind of a crazy thing to say yes, and it's like very funny to me

That people who like hold who self-identify as like you know conservative Christian fundamentalist Christian what have you

Would like see this and get angry about it. It's like I don't know this is quite flattering to the entire system

It's why you assume a lot of them just get to see it didn't say it aren't thinking about it in those terms also that they've

Built a relationship with a modern version of Jesus that they have rebuilt to their worldview that they don't really want to be in

Conversation with what this guy was originally and I'll say I mean to me the the most

Important line in the movie

Beologically speaking is when he is arguing with the religious authorities

And he says God is not an Israelite and

That's very much a statement of like universalism that like God doesn't belong to us

He's not a nationalist figure

I

Given the current political climate like I think people would hear that and get very upset even today

Even right right right right like you know because you know quite literally like the people running the military

Like yeah God's God's in the American and

He fucking loves f 35 you

You wrote this on your letterbox log last night, but you said one final thought it makes total sense to me that fundamentalist hate this movie

Of course they would Christ as amissary of total and all encompassing love is in direct tension with the quote unquote Christ

Of vengeance and domination that is invoked in this country, which is the thing. It's like that's really good

It's a good piece of writing right there. That's a nice little write up

But it but it is it's it's that you know

They they would hate this guy if they met him tomorrow. Yeah, sure. Yes, right. I mean, it's the same with all this shit

Fucking eight Ronald Reagan they'd hate Ronald right he does ask now he'd win him over

Went to bed with a monkey

so

The film fundamentally also just comes out in August, which is yeah, I have an odd time to release it but whatever

Uh, it doesn't make much money, you know, I made about eight million dollars. You've done Christmas

Possibly I mean Easter

What I mean, I don't know what the 80s landscape like now you're like well, this is a prestige movie like you

You really fall like bubble blob um, I mean if you it's like if you want if you're trying not to court controversy

You release it in August. Yes, that it's kind of smart of them to put it out in August considering

Uh, what clamor there was around it. Yeah, if this were a christmas movie

People would be up in ours

Marty would legitimately have good reason to want a bodyguard with the middle times

He

Says the movie put him in debt and like he didn't come out of it until he made Kate fear

It did do very well overseas

It made a decent amount of money it made back its budget certainly because it ended up making like 30 world wide

I think 28 or 30. I don't know where you get that number but I believe you I saw a couple places

But sure, I mean because then you know the box office

Yes, and all that are bad now

um, but

Internationally gross 25 million for world-wide gross of 33

Was in a variety right up in 1995

um, but uh as part of the deal of him agreeing to make this movie

He promised universal that he would make a bigger budget film for them later

Which he was planning to make shinler's arc which later became shinler's list which turns into the swap that lands with

Spielberg giving him Cape fear right

So Cape fear is which is a money maker right although he says then then gangs in New York put me back in debt and then then departed

Took me out of it again, like you know who knows but um

Take fear is a direct result of his deal with universal for this one

It's a movie like Mulholland drive. I wonder how many of these movies exist. It gets one nomination at the Oscars

Director. Yes, it's very rare kind of the Oscar thing of like I don't know man good job like yeah

Jesus well blue velvet was the same thing

Did blue velvet only get the one that only gets the one? I believe

I think linter is the only guy to pull that off twice. I need I need a full list of this if you nerds can tell me

Uh like how many times that's happened uh the film got great reviews

Like it was celebrated by critics

but obviously

Pro between the controversy ended being a two-hour 40-minute movie about Jesus you know

It's not a life-changing like sort of success

Mm-hmm. It's it's had a great legacy. Yeah, I think I think I think it's now so well appreciated

I think it's I think I think most people who like you know

Think about this stuff recognize

It's just like one of like the highway says he's career

And I think it's given people much greater appreciation for because it's just religious pictures, right?

Like yeah, I write because of course because he makes kundun in silence

He has this kind of loose trilogy. Yeah about faith

That is really fun to sort of right take in totality

Um, take as you will collider says there are seven movies

The end of the six happiness in 1958. I don't know where that is Alice's restaurant Arthur Penn

Okay, Felini Satiricon. Well, that's one for sure. Yeah, you velvet. Yeah last temptation of Christ

Shortcuts

More Holland riots short cuts as a wild one to again, whether just kind of like look man

You're back maybe too weird for us, but good job doing that. Yeah, that that looked complicated

Those cuts were really short

Obviously, that's the rainman year at the Oscars Barry Robinson wins Best Director

Um, let's do the box of skin barber Hershey got a globe nomination. That's interesting. Yeah, I forgot about that. Okay. Yes

Got blesser, uh, and I think it got picture and director of the Globes as nominations as well

The Globes were friendlier to this movie because they were more euro and I feel like this movie apart from the fact that like half of Europe was on fire about it

Like this movie played better in Europe. Yeah

Um no, it just got no it just got barber Hershey and score. Oh weird. Okay, and you know

That's kind of it. It made like the MBR top 10. Like it didn't yeah, it was mostly ignored the rude

Cutel raspberry nomination. Good right. And then of course like his follow up is good for his follow up is good

Which is like probably overshadows as well, you know a little bit

The movie comes out August 12 1988

It's opening number 13 of the box office carfin. So we're not gonna get on love you. Yeah, that's true. Number one of the box offices

Uh, Western

It's a Western in 1988. It's not solverado, is it? No, I would say it's a

A little it's a Western with more of like a modern twist not in terms of setting, but in terms of like kind of attitude

Young guns

That's correct what it comes were young

You know, Amelia West of skey for southerling loop diamond Phillips Charlie Sheen

Mm-hmm Durant Mulroney the big six. How many are we up to at this point?

Yeah, that's six guys six reasons why the west was wild. That's the uh dragon never seen young guns

Um, but you know rap pack. I guess it's like it's Amelia West of s is Billy a kid, but it's like all made up right?

I think I think they kind of made it up after that. I think that movie took some liberties

Uh, haven't seen young guns too

But of course that also has the the classic tagline uh, the west just got wilder

The wild wild west you mix yeah, well, and then of course we were introduced to the wild wild west

whoa-woah was

Tim West Esperada keep gun rough neck

No, you don't know not uh, oh there you want not uh or no, I can't remember. Yeah, I remember not uh

Not uh, we all remember not uh

Uh, what's number two at the box office?

Number two at the box office is number one the previous week. Mm-hmm. It's a big hit

We're starting a big movie star

You know, it's a bit of a cult classic. I would say this movie is stupid bullshit. You would say this movie is stupid bullshit

But you say it has rocks for brains

Yes, one of your favorite this movie has rocks for brains is exactly how to describe it

It's pretty fun cult classic might be too nice to it because it was a hit like it was one of the action stars

It's one of the big action stars. It's not an action movie. It's not no

It's a dumb but it kind of has an action movie sensibility to it. It's not kindergarten cop. No, it's been

Stupider than that. It's dumber than that. It's what it's one of the dumbest movies ever made

Star the biggest movie stars of the all time. What could this possibly be?

So it's not it's not a Bruce a Stallone or shorts. No, no. Okay. No. Sorry

Action star was maybe misleading that no bigger star than that bigger star. Let's start

Okay, it kind of early-ish in his startup. No, he's pretty famous for this. You know, he's made giant hits

It's not a hanks

No, you're close. I'm close same first name Tom cruise. That's right. Is it

tail

That's right. Do you know where you're gonna go? I mean the stupidest movie he ever made correct

But he's making a string of these movies. There's like there's like young hot guy

It's true and it's just that it's the classic like you know, he's like so I became the best cocktail guy in the world

And you're like what does that mean? And he's like you know how you could mix a drink like this? I don't do that

I the crazy thing a movie based on TGI Fridays right based on the guy who invented TGI Fridays

Yeah, and how hot that was that they created a singles bar for the first time

What if bars weren't where men went to not go to therapy?

What if bars or where men went to try to get laid?

And the guys did crazy cocktails Tom cruise brine brown brine brown is so alive

Do you think brine brown every like six months like Texan being like like a same night? Yeah

Let's do it

cocktail two is when we need to like hold a Tom Cruise intervention

The fact that he's prioritizing color of money or it prioritizing days under over color of money

I'm like my guy if you want to do another like a sequel

Overdoing top gun three

Don't do the fucking racing movie when you've already done top gun and they've already done f1

I don't think there's anything left to be said there

Yeah, I assume with days of thunders just kind of like

You know car will go fast people seem to like that right like I don't do do fucking color of money with a Kaylee Spani or some shit

Can someone I'm not thinking I don't understand well if you were to do a color of money like a sequel

Wouldn't just be the color of money again

I think the way you could make it work is if it's somewhat you flip it back because what works in color of money

Is that there's such different types yeah that you need to think of what's the third type of

Of pool hall hustler where crews wouldn't quite understand coming from being such a hot shot how they do it. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's crypto

Maybe it's crypto this time

Crypto it's in the way that you think of finding forest or kind of movie

Thank you David that was pointed wasn't I like that yeah

Yeah, so cocktails number two

Uh, I've seen cocktail once it's uh

What what movie war has rocks in its brains than cocktail right like that's right it's on the rocks. Yeah

Well, it's on the rocks. Yeah number three of the box office is an action film. It's one of the best movies ever made

It's one of the best movies ever made diehard there you go

No, it's diehard

No question there been out for a month. It's doing great people like it and it's gonna have a strong legacy as an action film

What's proving to be very popular is it's goodness is all the stuff that happens in a quality of the movie

No, before the box office is a comedy that is a pretty solid hit and is also nominated for best director at the Oscars

And it's somewhat surprising uh fish colada fish called one had to be yes

Which you know can find also Charles Crighton the Ealing comedy director who's very old at that point. Yes, so it's kind of a like

Hey, good job. I think his line was like it's it's an 80 year overnight success story or something like that

Yeah, haven't seen since I was a teenager. Love

I loved it then yeah

You okay, you know

So I have to

Oh, I'm looking over. Yeah, I mean god this many years and we got a spice things

Yeah, it's something crazy. I would need to save each other's

I'm like episode that's how we get another 10 years out of the podcast. Do you like a fish called wand?

Anyone like I've ever seen one. It's funny. I like it

I believe the baffties that year gave their best supporting actor to Michael Palin and I agree that Michael

Palin is the best performance in that movie. He's very funny

Um, they nominated Klein and lead is part of why that happened

But then they gave John Cleese the trophy for best lead. They loved that move

I mean, it's a very British movie. Oh, and it was a success

So I think they're really happy but palin's very funny. I think killin's phenomenal

And it palin also just one of my favorites. I was gonna say you also just love the guy

I like lines really funny. It's a great and it's the rare like full comedic performance winning an Oscar

Yeah, kind of right like where it's like goddamn like

We got it. You know what else Klein is in that movie hot hot as he's really oh Klein rules

Does Jamel what do you the scene in days as someone who covers politics

The scene in Dave where I've not seen Dave in many years. Oh really? Yeah

Do you remember the scene where Sigourney Weaver walks in on him in the shower? No, no, okay

Is he hot map though? He's really hot in that yeah, you're gonna need hot map

Sigourney's

Smoke and hot. Yeah, isn't she yeah

No, she's got like a Hillary Clinton haircut and pants suits or which you look great. Remember the basic premise of Dave

It's like the president to count in or something becomes president. No, it's just a guy who looks like him

President's a jerk has a stroke goes into a coma rather than deal with this

They find someone who looks like him and they're like you'll just do what we tell you

We because we just need to get this like your own past and shit right

And like okay, well, whatever you want and then he's like by the way after my ideas like and he starts to be really good president

That's so it's so funny that that's funny, but also

In reality when this happens, but it does on occasion the president has a stroke. Yeah, they they pull a Dave

They do a week in at Bernice no one pulls a Dave they do like a sort of like yeah the president still

Why I'm sure who gives a fuck the big thing in Dave is there like he's never waking up right right? It's like this is it

Right is that then that is true? No, he does he does. No, he dies. They pull the plug. Yeah, they pull the plug

I kind of think you know we have not been Dave the other guy, but then they pretend the Dave died right these are Dave spoilers

If Trump were to be debilitated. Oh, I think I think we get a couple weeks of a week in that Bernie situation

Yes, like before we're tweets before anymore fighting from a long distance. I was having been buying him for a while

We're like he was so bad at the debate with people were like is he like fucking dead or something like or like a puppet or like was that

And then was like now he's finally is the flu don't worry about it

And then like people serving like I don't know I got a meeting with him and he like don't know what it was and everyone started going crazy

But Mitch McConnell's really alive right yeah, he's totally alive

So never been healthy. Never been better. I saw a really fun video of him tap dancing yesterday

The thing where he was holding then days news paper in the one picture

Yeah, he's the sort of like my t-shirt is answering questions as you know, but you don't mean

I'm so alive I'm holding this newspaper. It's like right

We all love to hold the newspaper to prove that we're alive every day

Like that's normal way to go through live. I hate gendered of AI

But have you seen this subsection of videos that are like I'm Mitch McConnell and I'm holding up today's newspaper

And then he takes out a helmet and he like pulls an ollie on like a scaper am I

But that sounds like a the use of AI. I think that's maybe the most productive use we could come up with

Now we're five of the box office one of the great movies in 1988 one of the covered it on this show

Uh classic it's not broadcast news is 87 that's right

88 also shot by Michael boy. It's a classic and no genre

It's a comedy I guess family, but two was really you know

You know, it's cool and crazy so like you know kind of classic movie that like scars kids a little bit

It's cool and crazy and it scars kids and it takes a hearty it makes them feel crazy

It makes them feel it does I mean I'm right you'll you'll agree with me. It's not a lynch movie. No, no, no

It's a kids way. It's a Disney kids movie

Oh, no, cuz little more man's 80s it's a great mastertective. Nope great. No great great guesses from you both. No

It's a Disney movie that makes bigger than this big movie big hit movie

It's a director. It's a big hit movie from a big big director

Uh, and it's a kids movie. It is you're gonna get mad maybe but it is it's a kids movie

It's it's for cats, but it's really horny. It's got yeah, it is no one's gonna jack these are good clothes

Huh, and this is a scary main feed director we care oh yeah, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, he's right about all of it

This picture is entitled who framed Roger rabbit. Oh, yeah, ding ding ding ding ding

Yeah, it's very

Yeah, one of the most movies I watched I watched that like eight months ago

We show it to one of your kids. No, absolutely not

and

The scene where the shoe gets to dip

gentlemen, the dub a generation. Yeah, really it's a lot. It was very upset by it. Yeah

It's one of the most tragic things to happen in the movies

Um, number six of the box office so we will do this box office again one day is Francis Fort Coppola's a flop

Tucker the man in his dream was also good. Yes, just interesting that Marty and Francis on the same weekend released like passion projects and everyone's like

Okay, like you know like well, let's be clear. They weren't saying okay about last temptation

No, they were saying boo his

I think we're largely sort of like, you know

Pleasantly ignoring this movie. Yes

But also you can imagine if there's that level of protest happening outside the theater you might not want to go to the theater

I think there wasn't so much of that after a certain point. There was more more pronounced in Europe, I think yeah

Tucker man in his dream

Um, it's an awesome movie for great movie. It's a cool. Yeah, it for cool kids. Yeah, I don't know if you've seen it Jamel

But it's about pressing Tucker. I'm not it's about like

You know like the problem of America of a guy being like I think I can do things differently within the system

I can build a lighter car stop it. You know, you're fucking everything up like you're not allowed to do that

Great movie very interesting, but it was a flop number seven of the box office is coming to America. One of the big hits of the year

My favorite movie. Yeah, good movie. Yeah

Um still haven't seen the sequel

Uh, for a great day. I want to be bummed out

I remember it being fine, but here's what I also remember it was the COVID pandemic early

20

My brain was engulfed in flames number eight is midnight run great movie. I mean there's some movies of the box office right now

The number nine penny marshals big big we'll cover it on the show someday

Do you know that he has a dad in that movie?

Uh, sure. What do you mean you watch that movie and it plays as if Mercedes rule as a single mother

Uh-huh

But there's one scene where they go to the carnival where he sees the Zoltar machine for the first time and makes the wish

And there's a guy who's like, hey, don't go far and you're like, oh, this is Mercedes rules shitty

Boyfriend or something right there's a director's cut. There's a penny martial cut. That's 30 minutes longer

That mostly adds in more Elizabeth Perkins and I would say makes her character make a lot more sense

Sure makes her seem far less demented

But also at the same time adds back in the father

And she just cut out every single time the father appears for this one moment. Okay

It's fascinating

We're gonna talk about it whenever we do penny marshals. Yeah, which we will do. Yeah, what's that her second film?

Yeah, it's her second film jump a jack is the first. Yeah weird movie number 10 box offices of film tree like as well

Michael Keaton stars and clean and sober a movie. I love I

I was not able to get enough respect for it when I did a Michael Keaton out rush more on big picture

But I would have made the case for that to be one of his four he it's that and beetle juice the same year

And the national border review or was it New York film critic circle?

Maybe I think New York film critic circle gave him best actor for clean and sober and beetle juice

Sorry, you got no respect. Thank you

It's 100% what the Oscar should have done this year

Given you respect no given a trophy to to that was half beetle juice half clean and sober of course. Yeah

listeners give Griffin your

Spanning family of the national society film. They're expected that okay

New York gave him best actor for spotlight also kind of a cool win. Yeah, number 11 opening new this week is mac and me

Just wanted to shut that out. Yeah, so this week great movies up and down the list mac and me

That's the one with the the Paul Rudd clip correct and a lot of McDonald's right. Yeah, we have the big dance sequence at the McDonald's

Yes, which kind of goes and mac is usually a puppet, but in that scene. It's a little person in a costume. Oh

Good

So that's the box office. Yeah, and you know, it's I just

I think I'm not sure when this movie got its respects speaking about giving something proper respect

But uh when did this movie have its anti-rodney moment?

You know, I I think it's very esteemed now

I guess because of Marty's general esteem and because of the run he went on in the 2000s

It's still not like a canonical Marty masterpiece for some

Sure, I guess but it's a very well-regarded movie. I it's one of my favorites. It's interesting. I

I think it's well-regarded my sense. It's well-regarded, but when I think of

We need to say canonical Marty movies. It kind of falls out of that because I just don't think I don't think that people think

This happened a couple of you this was the thing a couple years ago on social media

People still think of mark Scorsese as he's the gangster gangster, right?

And so jj's favorite bit

people just don't think of the Last Intention of Christ or silence

Age of innocence as being like Marty movies

In the same way, but what's like this

Jesus is as central of this guy's empire filmography is anything right? Yes, going back to mean streets going back to mean streets

um

Jamal is there anything you want to plug?

Anything I want to plug

You know my columns every week at the times I have a YouTube channel you've been doing great videos that I've been doing

Are you still on Tik Tok or you kind of moving over to you? I know you're new Tik Tok

I'm still doing Tik Toks, but the YouTube channel I feel takes takes takes ever so often

I was like you didn't really trademark because it takes TM yeah, you didn't really trade my takes did you know?

It's no you did actually if anyone does a take five bucks I get I get a couple dollars

It's a joke. Well, you make a lot of money anytime I film a movie because they're on take five

No, you know, I'm telling me that people on the internet can take a joke. I maybe people on the internet can't take a joke

Okay, it was just my YouTube page. It's just like Jamal buoy

Easy to find and check that out. It's sort of like if you I understand people have feelings about the New York Times

And so if you don't want to like read New York Times and I do kind of basically sort of not the equivalent of my columns

But like you know little right seven eight minute like argument observations

Video editing

You're getting in the mix here game mix

Let me also throw this out not to steal Ben's

usual line of compliments here. You've been throwing fits you've always been a well-dressed man

But but the last year or so I think you've stepped up to a whole other level. Oh, thank you. I appreciate you look incredible today

You look incredible in the video. Yeah, your jacket is great. Thank you amazing jacket collection

Thank you so much

So that's that's the main other thing and

I don't really have anything else the plug. I you know, they released these like three weird flavors of Oreos

chicken and waffles banana pudding and fried banana pudding sounds kind of good fried

And I'm good. I before I came or I ordered them and they'll be at my house when I get home

And I'm gonna do like a stream. That's exciting

So if you want to see me eat weird Oreo. Yes, absolutely. I am looking at this. This is very interesting

I'll be doing that too. Amazing

Fried they just call it deep fried because that's like the carnival thing no

I know that but I'm scared it looks like the actual Oreo that you're buying though

It's just kind of a it's kind of like a triple decor Oreo, but the cream inside is flavored as if there's a fried coating

Sounds a little against God, but I'm genuinely curious, but he's chicken and waffle is very interesting

Savory Oreo as I get a little touchy. Have I told you about the city field egg rolls have we talked about this?

No, I mean, I've been to city field. Yeah with you. So you know city field has a walk and roll

Which is like an egg roll place and they have a different themed egg roll a very funny egg roll place

We should match walk and roll yeah

Different themed egg roll for every visiting team and so we're laying a braves

They had a chicken and waffles egg roll which is what I'm thinking about

America's just such an interesting place. Yeah, you know, they're just like what if we stuff X and Y

Yeah, it's just such a brand of how we nailed we're failing across so many different levels. Yes

But on the question of food innovation. Oh food science. We've never been better to heen cheesy

Gordita grunch cheesy Gordita at should we start it with this chat now? We're ending with obviously been on doboys several times

I feel like yeah, check out those appears. I'm jealous of whoever's gonna get the Tahin menu as an episode right

Um probably Barack Obama next week

Bro, I'm actually reasonably confident Barack Obama would go and doboys. Do we think he listens? Do we think he's spoon nation or burger burger?

Um, I don't know. I'm a something of a heat seeker

Next week on blank check good fellas good fellas. I'm recording that one. No

Um, good over on the patreon. Yeah, which we what we got we released

New York stories. Oh, yeah, sure as well as amazing stories

Right a double a double feature stories. So we're just gonna cover

Marty's New York's just Marty's saying we're trying twilight zone the movie rules

Uh, so that's happening over there. Thank you all for listening. This reminds me. Oh, no, I have one more thing to

Please my podcast unclear and present day. Yeah, John Gans about the political military goes 90s

Yeah, so just need to plug that what what movies have you covered recently? This week we're recording the ex files movie

The new cut

Know the old cut. Okay, fight the future right the future. Okay, but you know about the new cut

I heard about the new cut. I want to see the new cut because my main thought on this old cut is that the editing choices are inexplicable

But this is new cut of second movie. Yes. Okay, you can say what I want to move that's called like Dura Frank on stoon

David uh something like that look Chris Carter

I love you. I'm very glad you're getting pushed out on a big boat or a nice flow and this is the last thing

I think it's so clearly wreaks of him like he brought back the ex files. Yes, right and uh the first season he brought back was pretty bad people didn't

I was like, God, but it's great to see everyone and there were a couple good episodes there. I can fix it

I mean, there's like another season and everyone was like, oh my god enough enough you know what?

Enough buddy. And he's like what and they just picked it up. He's like, okay, but before you take it away from me

Can I recut the second movie and call it? I want to believe a uh Valk Frankenstein and they're like

Well, yeah, whatever. Yeah fine. Like it's go ahead. We'll put it on this. And that's enough out of you.

It's new subtitle is Dr. Frankenstein in German because he's like, I'm like Dr. Frankenstein

reconstituting this corpse. All right

Well, we didn't watch that. No, no, no, fight the future is canonical 90s conspiracy thriller great movie

I love that movie. It has some weird choices. I agree, but great movie

Uh, that's all that's how you interrupt. I don't know. No, no, no, no, very important. You need to play the part. Of course absolutely

And without having been said. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe

tune in next week for good fellows

And as always I'd like to try some allts if I can try some allts quickly. Okay. Willem de Redeemer

Willem de Bread of Life

Willem de Lord

Willem de Son of the Living God

How about William De Carpenter?

Yeah, William De Carpenter.

William De Sonna Mann.

William De Image of the Invisible God.

William De Lion of the Tribe of De Judah.

And of course, William De Christ.

William De Christ.

William De Christ.

William De Christ.

Father's son, sorry, let me try that again.

Father, William De Son and Holy Ghost.

William De Father, William De Son.

William De Villet.

William De Father, William De Son.

William De Holy Ghost.

Because it's the Trinity, they're all one and the same.

They are beautifully said.

Langcheck with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims.

Our executive producer is me Ben Hossley.

Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas.

And our associate producer is AJ McKeein.

This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeein and Alan Smithy.

Research by JJ Birch.

Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American novel, with additional music

by Alex Mitchell.

Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss and Pat Reynolds.

Our production assistant is Minick.

Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help.

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