Democrats' Closing Argument (with David Axelrod)

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Welcome to Plots of America.

I'm John Favreau.

Heading into any big election, there's always a handful of people I want to hear from most.

And one of them is my good friend and mentor, David Axorod.

Axe and I worked closely together for nearly a decade from when Obama was a senator through his first term in the White House.

He is the rare political strategist with the heart as big as his brain,

and understands the power and the craft of storytelling better than anyone I know,

other than maybe our old boss.

He founded the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago, currently serves as CNN's chief political analyst

and host of the excellent podcast, Haxxon Tap.

Two of us had a great conversation about the state of the midterms a few weeks out.

We reacted to the highlights and lowlights of this week's big Senate debates and talked about what

Democrats need to do to close strong in November and then win back the White House in 2028.

Before we get to our conversation, the midterms are less than 30 days away, and CricketCon is two.

It is November 5th through the 7th in Washington, D.C.

And we really want to see you there.

We just announced 24 different conversations and debates across four stages,

everything from the Democratic brand to the future of AI to building a winning campaign for 28.

We've also got a live taping of still counting with Nate Silver, Claire Malone and Galen Drouk.

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And stay tuned for we have a whole bunch more exciting names that we're going to add to the line up

in the weeks to come. Up next, David Oxerot.

Axe, welcome back to the show.

Always good to be with you, brother. I'm always happy when I'm with my old buddies from the

writer's room at the White House.

I know we haven't talked in a while. I guess this is we have to schedule interviews

in order to catch up on our respective podcasts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad to be here.

So we haven't got a chance to talk midterms in a while.

I want to get into some of the individual Senate races with you and play some clips from all the

Senate debates this week. Yeah, just fun.

Yeah, a lot of debates this week. But just to start, at this point, it seems like everyone's

in agreement that the political environment is bad for Trump and the Republicans.

And the only real question is how bad?

Yeah.

Personally, I feel like between the economy and the war and Trump's approval,

if Democrats can't win at least some of these red states with a midterm electorate,

it ain't happening for a long, long time. But what do you think?

And with some good candidates, first of all, Favs, I don't know if you're having

flashbacks, but I sure am from 2010. And I watch the Republicans.

And you know, they're doing what we did, which is to try and rationalize that what is obviously

happening isn't going to happen. You know, I think that the climate is bad for Republicans

in getting worse. The president is not helping.

I mean, I'm not saying that Donald Trump is trying to lose the election for Republicans.

But if he were trying, he would not do anything differently than he's doing.

I mean, it's really quite remarkable how much he has undermined them. And boy, I'll tell you what,

there is going to be a whole lot of rage after the fact if this goes down as it could.

One of my questions about these red states that I've been thinking about is we're measuring

these states at, you know, we say I was a 13 point Republican state because that's what

Donald Trump got last time. You know, more than a small, more than a small portion of that 13%

were people who didn't like Donald Trump, but were really upset about the economy.

Didn't think that Biden had, you know, got it and was handling it. Kamala was the number two in

that operation. And they just, you know, Trump was the economy guy, right? That's how they

remembered him. And they said, let's all right, we'll go take a shot on this. I don't think that I

was 13 points, you know, I don't think Ohio's 13 points necessarily. But there's certainly red states.

So that's point number one. Point number two, the environment is so, I mean, Trump is more

unpopular. I think that any president has been going into a midterm election since like Harry Truman,

who also didn't do very well, by the way. And I think the House has gone. It's just a question of

margin. But so much of this is about, is about Trump because midterms are always about

the guy and the president. It's always been a guy so far, the guy in the White House. And if people

aren't happy with the direction of the country and particularly the economy, it's a really

rough go for that party. And their play now is to try and just spend, spend, spend. I did a thing

with Chris Lassofita and Tony Fabrizio at Arizona State University at the beginning of the year. And I

asked him about the midterms and they said, we studied the midterms. We understand where things have

gone wrong. We were outspent by Democrats the last couple of elections. We're going to make sure we

vastly outspend them this time. We're going to make, at that time, it was mom Donnie. He's become a little

too, you know, when Trump is embracing him, it makes it a little harder to target. But we're going

to make these lefties the face of the Democratic Party. And we're going to make it about them. And

we're going to make it about, you know, immigration and taxes and crime. And, but the third thing

they said was, and we had this big beautiful bill and we front loaded all these tax cuts and

people, you know, our bet is that people can be feeling better about the economy come LaFaul.

That's not quite. That did not work out because they did not know at that moment that Trump was

going to declare war on Iran and Canada for crying out loud. And, you know, those, the decision

to go to war in Iran and the decision to the tariffs generally from liberation day on have been

so punishing to the midsection of this country. Those red agricultural states have been absolutely

pummeled when you look at the states that are most punished by these two things, the war and

and the tariffs, you know, I was at the top of that list. Kansas is at the top of that list.

Nebraska's at the top of that list. And so, and the war has another impact. So, so people say

our costs are way up. You know, diesel is killing us. And there's one guy responsible for that.

And it's the guy who said we're not going to get we're not going to get into any endless wars in

the Middle East. Yeah. And so they feel there's a sense of betrayal there. Yeah. It's, you know, I can't

remember a time where people have felt this bad about the economy and been able to so directly

connect it to the actions of the president. Like usually the president suffers from bad feelings

about the economy, but it's not often the president's out there bragging about the things that

people are most angry at. This is another important point. And and you remember this from when we

were at the White House, we at the beginning of our administration, we came into office right at

the beginning of the great recession. We walked into the worst economic situation since the Great Depression.

And we thought we were making progress, but people were not feeling that progress. And when we

tried to claim progress too overtly and did not really project empathy and advocacy for people

who are struggling in that economy, we were punished for it. And we corrected that. You know, I'm sure

you and I had that discussion many, many times. You had that discussion with the other speech writers.

We always pulled that back because we knew that it was insulting to people to try and jawbone

them into feeling that the economy was better when that their lives were not. Joe Biden made that same

mistake and paid a big price for it, you know, toward the country in the summer of 2023,

talking about the wonders of bi dynamics, the worst branding mistakes since New Coke. And so what's

really unbelievable is that Trump having benefited from Biden's mistake is now repeating it. And I think

it has to do with personality type. I think Biden, they're very different people and Biden's a

much better person. But there is a little bit of narcissism in both of them that they want credit

for what they have done. And remember, even back in the day, Joe Biden used to say, let's, if we

just go out and tell people what we've a kind of better story. Yeah, exactly. So, you know,

it turns out that the cash register is a better, better storyteller than us. The gas pump is a

better storyteller than us. And the story they're telling right now and particularly in those,

in those Republican regions that we've spoken about is a very negative story. So I think that

here's the thing that's spooking everyone is this whole idea of the hidden Republican vote.

Yeah. You know, that posters don't, that the non-responding Republicans who are going to come out

and vote. Now, that's really been an effect in elections when Trump was on the ballot. First of all,

but secondly, posters are not stupid. They read this crap too. And they, so I think they're all

adjusting their models. And I think they may be adjusting their models to favorably for Republicans

to offset the possibility of this. So, you know, it could be, these are close races. They could

tip the other way. But generally, when you have a wave, it's not selective. It's, you know, there

you know, we ran in 2010. We had a big wave against us, but we also had a woman running for

Senator in Delaware who, you know, thought she was a witch and had to do an ad denying that she

was a witch. That is a bad, that's a bad path. You know, you had a very flawed candidate in

Indiana. So, you know, we were able to win seats even in the midst of the wave, but there are so

many states right now that are in play that you would not have guessed would be in play. Yeah.

Six months ago. Yeah. Let's go through some of the big center races. And let's start with Michigan,

where our friend Abdul debated Mike Rogers for the first time this week. Maybe one of the most

heated debates we've seen so far. Yes. Just to give everyone an idea of how personal it got.

Here's a clip of the two candidates fighting over their mothers, yachts, and who's better for Michigan.

Let's let's let's let's let's put up a scan of worms. I'll get it. I'll tell you what my mother did.

She was a small. You go after my mom. I'm not going after your mom. That's what your mom was

working at. I was going off to that organization that was indicted for funneling money to El Qaeda.

He doesn't want to talk about $2.7 million in Florida. My guy. Yeah. I'll talk about that.

You know what? Did you sell your yachts? I'd never owned a yacht in Florida, brother. Oh, really?

What was your yacht? You had two of them. He wanted to make this about him or me. But the question

is about you. Can you afford your gas? Can you afford your groceries? Under this guy who's

going to rubber stamp everything Donald Trump tells him to rubber stamp. You're going to continue to

pay way more out the nose because he works for corporations and Donald Trump. So that was a

flavor of the debate. Rodgers tried to define Abdul as extreme. Abdul tried to define Rodgers as

a corrupt Trump toady and also then turn it back to voters. Who do you think succeeded?

Well, first of all, I think the big winner of that debate may be the libertarian candidate

who wasn't in the debate. But because it was really kind of, I mean, it was a food fight in many ways.

But that closing, the closing comments from Abdul, I think, are really pertinent. I mean,

the bet that the Republicans are making is that they can turn him into a scary kind of

closeted terrorist. And that enough voters will be off put by that that they will ignore

their very real grievances about the direction of the economy and the direction of the country.

Trump is more than 20 points underwater in that state. And I think that's a really hard thing for

Rodgers to overcome. Rodgers is also a sort of prototype of the kind of Washington Republican at a

time when I think people are throwing off the establishment and looking for people who are

agents of change. But I don't underestimate, I've heard about focus groups in Michigan,

where people say that I don't like the way Abdul looks. I don't like the way, you know,

and they're going to try what that debate said to me last night was that this is going to be a very

brutal three weeks in which they are going to try and scare the hell out of people about Abdul.

I like our old boss's reaction when people ask why he was going to Michigan to campaign for Abdul.

And how could he said, well, he wants healthcare for everyone and he wants a higher minimum wage.

My name people's, it sounds pretty good to me. I don't know. I was going to ask you about that because

obviously Obama dealt with plenty of ugly insinuations about his identity,

loyalties when he ran. What would your advice be to a duel in these final weeks about

responding without letting Rogers dictate the entire conversation?

I think his closing comments there were where he should go all the time, all the time. This guy

wants to scare you about me, but the scariest thing that everyone in this state is facing are

their bills every month, the price of gas, of groceries, the inability to get a healthcare,

the price of housing and mortgage interest rates. He has rubber stamped all those policies.

I grew up here. I love this state and I love the people of this state and I want to be their advocate.

He's going to be an advocate for Donald Trump and the Special Interest in Washington.

That's where I would go. I mean, Abdul, who I know and I like, he was a fellow at the Institute of

Politics at the University of Chicago that I founded. He's incredibly bright. I think he's well

motivated. He also is the former captain quarterback of the football team and when it gets into

these kind of like, you know, whose dick is bigger contests, he just can't help but jump in.

He doesn't know. He's gotten better, I think. He has. He has. He has. But he's like the little

girl with a curl in the middle of her forehead. When he's good, he's great. And when he's bad,

and when he's bad, is when he kind of submits to that, you know, and there was a little of that in

that debate last night. But whenever he's talking about people's lives, he's very compelling.

That's where he should live.

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Speaking of Obama, so he's going to Michigan. He's going to Detroit with the dual and Jocelyn

Benson is running for governor in a few weeks. What do you think is the most useful thing Obama can do

and say in Michigan with the dual? I think that he has to say a version of what we just said. He

has to say that people across Michigan and people across the country have real life concerns.

They're struggling and the systems let them it's let them down and we need agents of change who

want to make government more responsive to the needs of people. That's who this guy is. Don't be

distracted. Whenever you see these Halloween type commercials on the air, that's the sign of a

campaign that is trying to change the subject. There should be one subject in this campaign which is

we rest our policy away and government away from special interests and frankly a president whose

policies have taken us are not in the interest of every day. People now he'll say more elegantly

and but that's the essence of it. I think reassurance is important and he may want to say listen,

I know I recognize some of the stuff that's being run against him. Some of those things were

said about me. There were people who wanted to scare you about me and I put my faith in you

and I think Abdul is putting his faith in you as well. Yeah, I think that would be good.

Yeah. I assume that Obama will do other events as well in the midterms. What do you think just like

writ large his his value is at this moment and it's always like a tension between you know

he wants a message that is relevant to now. He doesn't want to just get people thinking about

you know the Obama years but also wants to be like useful and say something that's you know

useful to people in the moment. Yeah. The thing that he is so good at is sort of

lift and like lifting us above the trees a little bit. I mean I think people the big issue

across this country the everyday cost of things is a huge issue. The bigger issue is people feel

like they're losing control of their lives. They're losing their agency. You know and I think

that's a lot of what uh Favves the AI issue is the data centers have a specific issue specific

issues relative caught to the cost that they will bring to communities but people feel like these

things are being inflicted on them and they feel like AI is being inflicted on them. Now I'm one

who believes you know AI could help solve us solve some of the greatest problems we face and it could

also destroy us and I'd like to go through door A and not door B but uh but I think the biggest

thing is I think I was just telling to someone about this this morning. I think now and going into

2028 uh one of the great I think issues of our time are whether we you know whether we're going

to regain control of our own lives and whether uh whether the algorithms run our lives or whether

we run the algorithms and you know just to kind of like seize control uh back and put it where

belongs in our democracy which is in the hands of people uh to help shape that future there. So I

hope there's a little of that and a little of the might now this is therapeutic for me so you

can send me a bill for this when I'm done but I'm feeling really good uh talking about it but I am

so concerned that we have this perverse set of incentives in our media and in our politics

that that makes it profitable to divide people to demonize people to separate us as Americans

to make us believe that our neighbors actually are enemy uh and uh I think we have to I think we

have to make that part of what we're running against and frankly these tech platforms bear a lot

of responsibility for that because that's their profit model. Yes I think that is huge. Well and it's

and it also speaks to the earlier point you made about AI and data centers which is people feel like

they don't have agency. Yes. And they feel and and there's this feeling that because so much of our

politics is mediated through these platforms that yelling and arguing about politics is an end to

itself and so that if you like win a fight online. Yes. That's great but like what did what did

that do? How many people did that cause to change their minds or vote or join an organization or run

for office right? Yes. So we've had this we have this false sense of what it means to be active in

politics and to participate in politics. Yes and part of it is you know people feel I mean and part

part of the shame of or the challenge of uh of the media environment is that um people are just so

jaundiced about about what government can do and what we can do uh about what we can do together

but the other thing that they should be deeply worried about is we are back to a period in our

history where there is this tremendous concentration of wealth and with that concentration this isn't

about resentment if Jeff Bezos wants to float around on a yacht and the Mediterranean God bless him

good for him. This is about whether these people have too much influence over policy decisions

in Washington. Are they steering policy in their favor and against the interests of everyday people

just in 2024 there was an online uh online kids safety act that was passed in the United States and

I think at 93 votes a rare bipartisan bill. The speaker of the house Mike Johnson never called it

never called it for a vote because he knew it would pass and he and uh Mark Zuckerberg spent tens

and tens and tens of millions of dollars lobbying for that um how many decisions are being influenced

uh in Washington in that way I think people suspect a lot so we got to run against that too.

Let's talk about Maine uh we're George Axon and Susan Collins debated twice this week uh

Thursday and I got pretty testy uh as well uh let's listen. When when Donald Trump wants something

Senator Collins will not stop him and and when she doesn't stop him it hurts manners. Senator Collins

their husband making money more off of this war and and so is a whole bunch of other people and

that's why this doesn't doesn't stop because they they got us in another forever war that we're

never gonna get out of and people in the state are feeling the effects of it. That is absolutely

outrageous and you owe me an apology. No you owe me a call. That is absolutely outrageous. That's

what this campaign is about. It's about people that know that this government is fundamentally flawed

and Susan Collins won't do anything about it. She's she's powerful torn election time but she's

weak every time that we need to understand up and fight for us. So on that on the war profiteering

hit uh Jackson was referring to the the stock that Collins and her husband own in a couple oil

companies and military defense contractors. Yeah that's a bad hit. I was gonna say I want to

bad hit. Quite a bazooka to unleash. There's plenty to say there's plenty there's plenty to say

for Troy Jackson to say and I thought in the first debate earlier in the week you know he made some

he really a strong a strong case against Susan Collins. I'll talk about that in a second but

I don't she I don't think mayners who've known her for all these years they have a lot of complaints

about her the idea that she's only bipartisan when it doesn't count and so on but I don't think any

of them believe that she's motivated by you know for corrupt purposes and I thought that was a

I thought that if I were advising him I would have said hey stick that in your pocket and don't

don't say that yeah I thought it watered his argument down. Did you faths in the first debate though

he said he said uh you know he pointed out that she brags about voting against the big beautiful

bill but she actually allowed it to get to the floor of the Senate because she's the chairman

of the appropriations committee and and then he talked about a health care and he said she's been

a government employee all her life she's never had to worry about paying for a health care and

she she objected vehemently she said that is not true in 1994 when I was running for governor

I had no health care. There was a few months period 30 years ago. Yeah I was briefly not sure

because I was running for governor. Yes. I mean that was that was such a revealing exchange you know

and I think and and he he said look there are a lot of people in this state who don't have those

advantages who have to worry every day about how they're going to pay for an illness if it happens

who can't see a doctor and I'm you know I'm one of them you know I'm one of I'm one of those people

worked 80 hours a week to and you know one of the things about this faths is you know there is a kind

of forest gum kind of Ralph Cramden quality to Troy Jackson and there is a kind of elite

element to her argument which is a guy like this doesn't belong in the United States Senate. Yeah

she seems if she seems offended by having to be on stage with yes and yes so like that anyone's

challenging her you know seeking another term. So the question is are are are college educated

voters and college educated women going to walk away from him the data doesn't suggest that

but is he going to chip away at a bunch of working class people in that state who think I mean

I think it's a pretty good argument that maybe the Senate would work better if there were

few people who actually know what's going on in people's lives. Yeah this to me is another race

and it's a little like Michigan in that he's got two objectives right he's got to tie her to

Trump or at least make the best argument about her that is as you were saying believable to the

people who have voted for her many times and many of whom like her even though they vote for

Democrats for president and he for some reason has like the highest unfavorables of any democratic

Senate candidate running in one of these really competitive races so he's got to tell a story

about himself that reassures people and I wonder how you think about the balance and the tension

making the case about Collins and then also making the case for himself. Well the thing about

you know I've seen ads I've seen the attack ads and I've seen ads about him and I think that

they're both important in both credible and they match each other because his is very much about

lifetime of in the working class and as an advocate for the working class and framing her as a

you know as a creature of Washington and you know I think that is the place that he that is the

place he needs to be this notion of her as someone who you know I think she she she will say I was

the I cast a deciding vote to save the affordable care act and honestly I'm grateful to her for that

she also voted against the affordable care act you know and there are so many examples like that you

know I voted against the big beautiful bill but but as chair she enabled it to get on the floor of

the house you know she she tends to give the leader she tends to stray from the leadership when

they don't need her vote yeah and you know the ACA was was an admirable exception to that so

um I you know the one thing I don't know that I I saw a video of her from 2000 from 1996 when she

first ran almost unrecognizable honestly but she said if I can't get what I want done for I'm

here for two terms and two terms only and if I can't get that done I shouldn't be here and then I

saw her being interviewed on Fox and they said what about that and she said well I found out that

seniority is really important but she had been working in the Senate for six years before she ran she

was like chairman of a subcommittee staff and she did not know that seniority was important so

I mean I do think there's an element of enoughs enough yeah and uh and I think I'd work that a

little in the final stretch here too and one of these where because you know that a lot of

meters like her to sort of give them like give people who voted for her

yes a permission strok yeah and be like so like the gold watch strategy right yes exactly

yeah thank you for your service that's great but you know what we what you say you've gotten all

the stuff for Maine and thank you for everything you have brought to Maine but we're still hurting

costs are still high we're still worried about our health care and like you haven't done anything

about that yeah and that's sort of a little bit of why I was uncomfortable with the with the attack

on the you know that she was profiting off of the war I mean that that that goes in the opposite

direction of what you're suggesting but I wouldn't be surprised if he's smart he'll close with an

ad of Maynors saying I voted for Susan Collins and I like her but you know it's time for a change

and they can articulate some of the arguments that will give people the ability to say that's me

I feel that way too I don't have to hate Susan Collins not to vote for her

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as someone tuned into politics you've probably seen the constant bickering about who belongs in

the pro democracy movement well we think it's best to have these conversations in person and

hopefully it will also be more productive cricket con is right after the midterms and it is

going to be the first time we come together to hash it out in person and kick off the 2028

debate we just posted a ton more info about what to expect from the big event from November 5th to

7th so check it out at crookacon.com and get your tickets now the NDC

that's the sound of a baby being born at st johns

that's the sound of your celebratory first meal being served that's the sound of sunshine pouring

into your spacious room and that's the sound of a happy baby taking in its first view because when

it comes to your birthing experience we've thought of everything st johns everything for the better

we talked about some of the the red state races earlier um yeah Texas looms large and i think

Ken paxson is maybe the worst Republican candidate of the cycle and cycle so that's obviously

a a a big reason telleriko may win but how much do you attribute what's happening Texas to his

appeal as a candidate telleriko's appeal and what do you think he's done right that you know

democrats may be able to learn from yeah i look i think um that he um he is the anti trump in some

ways he is appealing to people's common humanity he the things i think the qualities favzett

trump lax are going to be very much in demand uh in the next few years um empathy humility

you know um well obviously integrity but an impulse to bring people together and so on um telleriko

believes that yeah and he exudes that and it's wrapped in his faith which is obviously quite

is quite sincere and i think that's been good he's also you know i'm an incredible communicator

and he's benefiting from the snapback among hispanic voters who republicans thought somehow

had pledged their fidelity to the party regardless of what they did regardless i mean this is a

community of a working class people in small business people who are getting killed in the economy

but also uh hispanic americans who now are being targeted uh simply because they are uh hispanic

uh by ice and they've seen you know all of these stories unfold so he's benefited from that as well

and he's getting you know back the kind of vote among hispanic voters that uh he will need to uh

to win this race but he's also getting a a pretty good vote about white voters i think what's

going to happen in this race is that you're going to see a much larger than normal group of

of republican voters who just skip the race who aren't there's going to be a big under vote

yeah uh for paxton and then on top of that i think the libertarian candidate there who got

2.4 percent in the last senate race it's going to do even better than that and i think it's going to

most almost all be uh people who want to register a protest against paxon but can't get all the way

over to vote for taloriko that will lower the uh the the threshold for taloriko to when he doesn't

need to win 50 percent of the vote yeah in that case that's he's that there's a real path there

i mean yes he's close yeah but texas has broken uh the hearts of many democrats many times so

yeah i think this could be different you know and paxon is a mess you know a mess one more debate

from this week i want to get your thoughts on uh my columns versus john ossoff in a race that

ossoff has just dominated from the start despite uh Georgia being a state that swung back to trump in 24

uh let's let's watch a few clips this is a man who cheered on a group of young men who are

mocking a black woman on a college campus with monkey sounds if john louis were marching today from

selma to montgomery mike colens would be grabbing a billy club his office has been in kohuts with

some of the most notorious white supremacists on the country he himself has amplified neo-nazi

propaganda he's never apologized for it and he should tonight mike colens voted to take that

money out of your pocket and out of your community and give it instead to data center developers

and that's the problem like it's not just that you've hired half the third rike to staff your

congressional office and you have promoted neo-nazi content online it's that you're robbing your

constituents to subsidize your donors i want to know if you will commit to voting to repeal that

data center tax scam that you voted for but c'mere an answer this debate was like the most brutal

thing i've ever seen it was so uh... you would teach off of this debate you would teach off of it

i mean i i thought they were going to have to remove colens on a stretcher i mean here's what my

reaction was like this whole campaign also has been doing these rally speeches that go viral and

one of the reactions has been sure he's good at the set piece teleprompter speeches but what about

when there's no promter yeah and i and and you know this well for all of brock opa as many talents

landing debate zingers and memorable debate moments not really one of them what do you think of

also as performance and like what that says about his skills as a politician and potentially a

presidential candidate if things go well and he decides look i i think that he is a star you know he's

the speeches that he's given and they've been very artful at packaging them in vertical videos

that have gone viral it's helped him raise a lot of money but it's also raised a lot of excitement

among among democrats and here he shows and you saw some of it in committee hearings but here he

shows an incredible facility for just completely controlling a debate from start to finish

and you know obviously he's got a good memory and he's probably you know he rehearse those

those those interventions but it came across as very conversational and he completely dominated

the terms of the debate i think look us off's going to win and he's going to win by more than a few

and what's going to happen next is going to be a stampede of people down to Atlanta to try and

persuade him to run for president and you know there are there my view of him is he's really

exciting interesting and talented and young which i think is hugely important he's a member of the

senate but he seems like an outsider he seems like a guy who's trying to hold the senate to account

the government to account i think that's very important i haven't seen him smile i've never seen him

smile i've never seen him he's always very severe you know so there are other elements of campaigning

you know that i would like to see you know i mean even i mean you must have had him here

but i don't know how he is sort of just basic conversation he yeah it's not like he's um

it's not like he's stiff right it's that he's uh he doesn't give you much like he's very he's

and you know what you can't you know how i feel about this campaigns require you i call them

MRIs for the soul presidential campaigns people need to know who you are and they'll find out who

you are one of the things about Obama was he could do all the events very well he was very comfortable

in conversation he was comfortable in any room you walked in um even when cameras weren't there he

he you know he'd go through the kitchen on every time we arrive somewhere and spend time with

people in the kitchen and talk to them about their lives and you know he'd retain allow the stories

that you ended up using in your speeches were stories that he retained in his mind from conversations

with people i don't know you know that that we'll see about that the campaign will test that if he

if he runs there's one element of this uh though that we should mention which is

if democrats only win 51 seats uh and assuming that senator federman doesn't

flee which seems you know a little bit more likely than not these days i guess yeah that senate

seat in in georgia is going to be really important and who is the governor of georgia is going to be

really important because the governor of georgia is going to have to appoint a replacement until a

special election uh which would come i think in two years uh i think that's the way it works so

they're actually what kisha lands bottoms is is running a very strong race she's neck and neck

with rick jackson i think his name is rick jackson the candidate there uh but um

if you know her winning is would be i think make it easier for us off certainly uh not yeah it's kind of

you know so that's that's a that's a silo like this but look you know i'm always excited by

um by young dynamic leaders who can make appeals to idealism and um and in that even though i

said what i said earlier he did evoke in his comments throughout this debate the experience of people

i mean it wasn't like he was divorced from that it wasn't it wasn't so clinical you know

no and then there's all these stories about like his constituent services in georgia

and and him calling just constituents all the time directly to see how they're doing so i can't tell

what it is like if if he's just he seems to be a very thoughtful person who and i heard him say

this in some interview where he's like there's just been so much silliness and politics that actually

taking the time to think about what you're going to say and being careful about what you're going to

say i feel like is a is it is a skill that or it was just something that's needed that we haven't

had no yeah it's a discipline and i wonder if part of this is discipline for the race he's running

and that you know maybe we'll see we'll see more of him uh once uh once the race is over but

well i mean i it would be i hope he gets out there i think uh you know and and as i said one of

the things he's going to have to be alert to is that obama learned is um when you come out with

this kind of bali who you know you don't get the advantage other candidates get to kind of work

your material through in small groups yeah you open right up on broadway and the critics are all

lined up in the front row and there's a lot of pressure associated with that so everybody everybody

who runs for statewide office thinks they they i'm good at this i can run for president and then they

run for president i realize oh this is a whole different thing and it is and it should be because

you're running for the most uh powerful and important office on the planet

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as someone tuned into politics you've probably seen the constant bickering about who belongs in

the pro democracy movement well we think it's best to have these conversations in person and

hopefully it will also be more productive crooked con is right after the midterms and it is going

to be the first time we come together to hash it out in person and kick off the twenty twenty eight

debates we just posted a ton more info about what to expect from the big event from november fifth

to seven so check it out at crooked con dot com and get your tickets now the ndc

i want a vacation with rides a water park and in aquarium a deep sea adventure and a real submarine

then i want to build and find my own spaceship through a whole lago galaxy a grownup might call that

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you mentioned how people are often looking for and this is a one of your more famous axisms that

people are looking for the uh... the remedy and not the replica yes of the the president who came

before what what potential democratic candidates do you think sort of embody some of the qualities

that people are going to be looking for after the trump error well you know the hard part with

trump is that there are a lot of things to remedy and the question is the question is what are the

ones that are most important to people um i think there i think almost all of them though fit in

that character basket you know um uh you know humility integrity um uh empathy i think is really

important because he shows none i think that's one of the reasons why joe biden beat him in 2020

because uh biden was had predinatural empathy and he seemed like a guy from small town america

from scranton who could relate to the uh experience of everyday people i mean some of that will be

important secondly i do think because of the unbelievable level of corruption we've seen

i think people want to give washington an angioplasty and they want to hold it you know that

our institutions do account and you know there i think us off has creeped ahead of the field because

he has been such a strong voice on corruption and not just the corruption of trump but the corruption

of the process uh by which decisions are made so um i think that will be really important and i think

youth will be important i don't think this is we've gone through the experiment with a couple of

octogenarians i don't think people are going to be looking for more and i think that's why the whole

field is going to be much uh younger i think being from outside of washington also will be

i mean i think the governors may have a bit of an advantage although i think us off as i said

doesn't read like washington so he he might escape that one thing i've been thinking about the

governors is like i feel like the the ability to draw attention um to inspire people to get to get

people excited is even more important in this information environment where that is so crowded

and noisy and sometimes i wonder if these governors who might be very popular in their states

because they're just they've governed really really well are going to be adept at figuring out how to

draw attention in a in a crowded national information environment like this that is one of the

the new tests right that's a relatively new test but absolutely i think that's going to be important

i mean as i said one of the reasons i soft has done well is because they understood this

and so you know yeah he made these speeches but they also knew how to cut them up and get them out

yeah and and and and make them go viral honestly um my old buddy rama manual and your old boss

no i guess he's been pretty he's been pretty creative about getting you know attention

yep uh as well and you know i think he'll be a factor in this thing i mean but it is like what i

think when i go through the it's like rama's good at that ossoff pate aoc new sum you can say whether

the get the whether the attention all these uh folks are getting or helpful or not but like

that's like a list of people who i think know how to sort of draw attention to themselves and yeah

i mean one thing we should say is i've always said authenticity is a coin of the realm in presidential

races so it's good to be viral it's also good not to look like you're kind of full of shit right so

that's important that is a good one yeah so um you you know and a lot of those folks would would

are not that way um you know uh i know rama has his fans and his uh and and his detractors but um

you know he he does believe things certain things and he's tell you know he's very straightforward

and he says it no aoc is a great communicator on this level i just you know you may know more than i

i mean i just don't know if she's gonna run i was gonna ask you because you you asked for that at the

iop and that the answer kind of went went viral and then she talks the times again and she she

that it was interesting that quote she gave them which is you know life doesn't wait for you to be

ready for things sometimes life just makes things ready for you which is so it reminds me of what

what rama was being told back in oh six and oh seven and yes um but i couldn't tell which way

she was leaning there are other things she said that um make you and what she said to me that make

you a wonder uh about whether she thinks this this is the right time uh for her you know she's 36

years old she wants to have a life we now know she wants to have children uh because she's talked

about that um that's you know running for president makes those things almost prohibitive uh and

she has to feel like she's ready you know if others may feel she's ready she has to feel

that she's ready uh just ready in terms of uh her level of performance and so on um and you know

the senate seats sitting there in New York i mean i think if she decides she wants to run for the

senate i don't know that i i think senator shumer probably isn't going to run any way i don't know

that but i suspect and i think he certainly would not if she did so um you know and she would not be

just another senator you know right i i i've said you know i don't want to disparage but there are

any number of senators i could think of who can walk down the hall and relative and on emity uh she

would not be one of those everybody would want to know what she thinks yeah one thing she said

very more recently that sort of um raise some eyebrows is uh she was doing a fundraiser for

dual in new york and she said uh if a dual can win michigan it means anyone can win anywhere

yeah what i don't know and i thought about that for like what the argument is going to be

just broadly post midterm as we head into 2028 you know we'll get back to the

there'll be some candidates who are more progressive and some less and then we're going to get into

electability again and i wonder what you thought about that argument well first of all um you want

that one of the other things she said to uh uh Shane golemacher the times was that um

essentially she didn't want to run a kind of puric race she want if she if she ran she was going

to run to win and she needed to know so you fit those two together and that's interesting look

i would i hope the primaries should be a robust discussion within a party about the direction of

the and how what where are the right paths i find the whole discussion of you know will the center

right win will the progressives win with we are faced with such monumental challenges in this country

i think every year and i've got a lot more than you but every year we every election year we say

well this is the most important election in history um that and it becomes a cliche this really may

be the most important it's certainly in my lifetime just because of the crush you know what you know

AI and the discussion what to do about dad and and and uh climate and um and of course

how do you build an economy that works for people and give people their best opportunity i mean

all these things are crushing in on us and we need wisdom and we need to have a bigger discussion

than whether team A or team B triumphs in the intermurals and then whether they who wins in them

you know this should be more than about that kind of a uh discussion we need thoughtful ideas and

problem is that you know the incentives and politics are to um uh weaponize differences rather than

take take the best from all of them last question about this and i'll let you go like what do you

think the the central question that the uh the next democratic nominee has to answer about the

country and about the party well first of all and i know this wasn't a first of all question

i just want to make two points about it uh one is i think the wrong impulse is to say um

you know trump has done a tear down there's no doubt about it the blast radius from him we're going to

be feeling for he is one of the most impactful presidents in american history for for better and

worse uh mostly for worse uh there's some things he have torn down that probably we should rethink

anyway because it made they may not have been working as well as they should i don't

but the one thing i know is when he became president because people weren't happy with the status quo

and with our politics um so to say we're just going to restore everything that he destroyed and

we're just going to put everything back the way they were is a losing argument and it's a bad argument

it's the wrong argument we have an opportunity to build something new that's more resilient uh to

corruption you know resistant to corruption more responsive to the real life concerns of people more

able and agile to solve some of these big problems we're facing more designed to bring us together

and um rip us apart and so i think someone who speaks at that level is going to be a more

powerful candidate um this is you know a uh uh it's a big moment for the country and i hope we've

always had the genius to elevate people at the right moment i kind of thought of our guy as one of them

and um i'm hoping i have a lot of american people take such a beating you know that people think

voters are stupid um they're not you know and i'm hoping that uh they see in someone the uh the depth

and the wisdom that we need at this moment and um that's why i can't wait for this primary to start

i've been waiting since 2023 for a primary so me too me too i know i'm very excited for too i

i i i look forward to it with trepidation but also hope that all the things you just said um

will happen and that someone will will elevate someone who can actually meet the moment

yeah well you've written the word hope a lot of time in a lot of places john and um the thing about

you is that i know you also believe it and that you are an apostle of hope and possibility which is why

i love you and uh why so many people are interested in what you have to say well same to you my friend

i learned it uh i learned i learned it all from you so thank you right thank you thanks for uh thanks

for joining i'll talk to you soon all right thank you that's it for this episode of pah-tavi

america thanks to david acerod for joining me love it tomi and i will be back on Tuesday

pah-tavi america is a crooked media production our show is produced by austin fischer solruban

mechana robert's and michael goldsmith with rejarlan a lajacone and adrien hill our team includes

matt de grove and heth kote jordan canter charlotte landis cany mothat adam liper joseph dutra

desmond tailler dan farram david toles mea kelman ryan young and neomy single our staff is

probably unionized with the writer's guild of america east

as someone tuned into politics you've probably seen the constant bickering about who belongs in

the pro-democracy movement well we think it's best to have these conversations in person and

hopefully it will also be more productive crooked con is right after the midterms and it is

going to be the first time we come together to hash it out in person and kick off the 2028 debate

we just posted a ton more info about what to expect from the big event from november 5th to 7th

so check it out at crookedcon.com and get your tickets now the and dc

i want a vacation with pandas the giant kind and rafts on a real safari from a bird's eye view

a sky farie and lots of evolutions enough to fill a whole valley a grownup might call that

unrealistic we call it kids free sandiego where children under 12 play for free a place is like

the sandiego zoo and safari park all october long discover deals and discounts at zoo dot sandiego

zoo dot org honey i i think we should have an open relationship yeah i was thinking the same thing

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it to coma no strings attached with flex car you could always swap them out for the newer model

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sterile why no reason here's to open relationships with cars flex car you drive everything