Preseason Power Rankings, Part 4 | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Varyer in joining me Rob Mahoney, Jay

Kyle Mann, part four of the preseason NBA power rankings. We've gone on to our second week

of this gauntlet of an exercise. We've just been sitting in the same recording studio for

what days on end at this point. I have multiple beverages assembled at this stage. We're in it.

We're in it. I think we could scale it up even further though. I think next year when we aspire

to do this, we should knock out all six episodes in one day. Okay. To see what happens. I mean,

in front of a live audience perhaps. Let's turn into like a telephone. You know, like

live donations of some kind. Can you imagine how absolutely nonsensical we would be by the time

we get to the spurs or the thunder or the nicks or whoever? There'd be no podcasting left

and yet puffing out fumes and microphones for content. Well, you know, I do think that

it would get to the weatherman is dead status. I think it would fall apart to that level.

I mean, speaking to what you're talking about, we argued about the difference between

Chonky and Stout for 15 minutes. Yeah. So the listener knows before we got on here in between

recording one podcast and this one, we had a what 10 minute long conversation about the

specific definition of Chonky robust about what makes an absolute unit, but is robust

the same thing as Chonky. No, I think there's a subtle distinction. Stout, maybe we need

to make a whole continuum here of like which NBA player is Chonky, which ones robust,

which one is an absolute unit. I think density is maybe the thing that binds them all.

Well, if we're talking Chonky and Chonka Soros is specifically, that means we're going

to talk about the Toronto Raptors who are on today's docket as we talk through teams

15 to 11 in our rankings. We're finally crossing the line into the top half. This is the

line of demarcation right here, baby. I want to say so many things about this cluster of

teams, but I don't want to tip our hand about who we're talking about. Yes, the Raptors

are on the docket, but let's just get into it. I don't want to lead off too much.

All right. Why don't we take a quick break and we come back. We'll get to number 15 on

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I'm just clicking us off today of all Eastern Conference teams in this range. I feel like

happens often, which I think speaks to what happens in the Eastern Conference, is that

you typically have one or two teams that are a clear cut favorites. The rest are kind

of in this range. This range, though, feels better than it has in years past.

Yeah, I think that's the difference is the equivalent range in the West are the teams

we just talked about. The warriors and the jazz, they all have their own definitive problems.

There's something holding them back that's very acute and obvious. These teams are pretty

good. They have flaws. They have things they're trying to address. There's going to be problems

to work out over the course of the season. But the quality of the middle of the East, I think

is as good as maybe it's ever been in the modern era and how they're going to make sense

over the course of the year of the fourth through ten bloodbath that's happening out there.

I think it's one of the stories of the season.

I have this thought. I feel like every year, whenever we do any kind of exercise like this

and whatever on the side or whatever it is that you think, okay, like four through ten,

like you said, I don't know if it's quite four through ten, but the middle is hard to rank

just because there's the obvious teams that have championship direction and clear cut aspirations

that are justified in the teams that are hopeless. These teams are kind of figuring

that out, whether that means they're figuring out the pieces that they have or they're lacking

the pieces, we can go through that varies from team to team here. But yeah, it was really

hard to rank. Well, you're on the Eastern time zone. Do you feel the buzz building on the

East Coast where you go to the coffee shop? They're like, I really think the Raptors are

onto something there. We got quiet. Well, in the off season, I thought that having faith

in the Raptors would be a sort of market inefficient. So you're just like an area to

sort of say like it was exactly. I don't, I really genuinely don't think it is anymore.

I think a lot of people are on to that to the point where it makes you wonder if it's

like properly calibrated, like the expectations or people overdoing it a little bit.

Yeah, we'll get to the Raptors in a little bit. We got to start first and foremost with

number 15, the Orlando Magic, a team that I was higher on than you guys, which is surprising

because you asked me this question. Most of the past year, I would have been much more

down on the magic. Obviously, the playoffs, I guess ultimately ended better considering

how bad the regular season was, but it really depends on where your expectations lie.

They didn't do much with this team. And I think the one thing we said is like, they got

to add more shooting. They need more offense for this team. My belief, though, stems from

the fact that they did get a new coach in Sean Swainy. Obviously, defensive background.

And I'm just thinking like, can this team just not be good on defense anymore? Hang their

hat on that and just be better. I don't know if I would ever pick them to be in the top

of the East, although they have that talent base. But like, I think last year might have

been like the nadir of this core. They have reasonable health and they get back to what

they're doing well. This is still a good basketball team. And so I had them kind of on

the higher end of this range. Yeah, I think the Swainy Hires is very interesting for that

reason. I mean, I think there's probably some financial motivations there as well as

far as who they hired, but not going for a glitzy, shiny, offensive, like systemic

coach. And instead, just like, let's sort of double down on what used to be the identity

of this team before it started to drift. Let's nail it down on the way you're talking

about Justin. Like, we can have this thing. We are good at we have the personnel to do

it. We know it for a fact. And there's any more offensive ingenuity happening. That's

kind of icing on the cake. But being a lead on defense would be a huge head start. I

just think that Orlando's focus, certainly the injuries have played into this over time.

But they just kind of lost the plot a little bit on the physicality and the focus of their

defense. Well, we talked about this a lot over the course of the season, like what was causing

that. And I think the offensive slog, obviously missing people miss, which means missing out on

their development. There's player development. And then there's development together as a team.

And one feeds the other. And I think that there was this like malaise. One of the worst, like,

vibe, but you said, Nadir, just plummets from where we that the, the, you know, we're talking

about what the Raptors might be and the vibe kind of champions for what they could end up being

in the season. The magic were that for a while. They were the team that were like, oh, these,

these guys are so fun. Oh, man, you got to watch some magic. And the plummet that they took

was just straight down him. And some of that was when you're having the offensive muck and just

the problems that you're having, it gets pretty hard to just turn around and be like, that was tough.

But man, I'm going to dig in on defense. It was just like it really was this like cyclical

morale thing that you do wonder if Sweeney can come in and sort of move things around. If they're

healthy, we can talk about like if they had been healthy in the playoffs, but I just want to

speak to Sweeney for a second that he is a reputation as an obsessive preparation guy. And somebody who

just kind of like forces buy in that's kind of his reputation as a coach. So that's that's going

to be passing to watch. I think those two things plus just the reality of having a new coach,

where by the tail end of it, especially the thinly veiled swipes at Jamal Mosley from various

players on press conference stages, I mean, it was just getting glaring. And so the lack of belief

in what was happening. And I think that lack of belief was somewhat warranted on offense, right?

Like they'd gone through this no point guard. Everyone kind of handles the ball, but it gets bogged

down with palo thing for long enough that I think they do just need some order. Like they need

that obsessive preparation. They need a little bit more system. They need a little less like

improvisation along the way. This is the number two defense two years ago. And Jalen Sugs played

35 games in that season. I would have wanted to believe like it was mostly Suggs because he

matters so much to this team for the vibes and everything else, especially on defense as well.

So it's like still in them, but the flip side of continuity often is that you had such success

in the past that when things go bad, you can harken back at it. You can look at the good old days

when things were going well. They never really hit a peak even despite the success they had to

season to go. It really was like cresting and the next season was when they were supposed to punch

it and be a big contender. I think that is the big concern. It's just that they never really put

it together. And so they're at this point where both palo and fronds and guys are starting to carve

out individual wants and needs about their individual careers. And so like most of the time I think

talent figures it out, but I don't know. These guys might be really putting that to the test just

because of how specific their games are and how much they require other people around them to do

certain things for them individually to be successful. Well, I think this season overall is really

going to put it to the test not just in terms of those players, but like there's almost no turnover

here. Like they brought in kind of one new player, kind of an old player also for being honest about

it. Which is returned. You always go home always and like bringing in chance when he does change

things, but this is the same old team. And the hope is that they can be healthy enough to do something.

I want to put a little asterisk on the ending of last season because maybe that series goes a

little bit differently if fronds is healthy. And we're talking about the magic so differently. And

they get into it with Cleveland and anything is possible. I don't know, but they need to prove that.

And there's been so many if they do this, if this guy is healthy at the right time, if everything

comes together with the magic that until we see it proven, I'm not inclined to give this group a

lot of benefit of the doubt. You nailed it. I think I'll go as far as to say I think if fronds had

been there, they probably would have won that series. I think there's top to bottom. I said this

at the time where we're doing the show. I think that they had more talent top to bottom than the

pistons did. So yeah, so even though they are running it back, it's like new coach, if you're healthy,

it's it's not exactly running it back, right? It's going to be just sort of like resetting and

having everybody there. So you have that to look forward to if you're a match. I guess my question

is for our essential question, which we do one of for every team here.

Does this feel like a crossroad moment for those two guys? On the one hand, you would say they're

both signed for a long term. I think they're both at four years left on their deals. They're both

clearly franchise pillars. And so regularly those guys aren't the ones you move. You figure out

everything around there. The coach goes first. Then we start messing with some of the rotation

guys and then we, if we have to, cut into the core. Having said that though, they just brought

Desmond Bannon. Jalen Suggs seems critical to the team. And also if he's not critical to the team,

he's often injured and thus wouldn't be available to be traded. And so it seems like we're getting

to that point. I'm wondering how you guys feel in terms of like the rubber meeting the road. Are you

at that stage with this team at this core? I'm definitely at that stage. I think the team has been

at that stage. They just kept deferring it because guys were hurt all the time. Like the amount of

time in which Frale Frale France and Palo and Jalen Suggs have all been healthy together is vanishingly

thin. And so there's just been kind of a waiting game of everything needs to align. Everything

needs to align. Let's give these guys a chance to not just be healthy at the end of the season,

but come together in the way that Kyle is talking about have that opportunity to build together.

It just has never happened. But with the Bayon edition, with the Swini Hire, the installation is gone.

Like you are to the point now where you have to start making hard core level decisions if this

doesn't work. Yeah, the personality. The sort of the way that they've constructed this roster,

it kind of makes you wonder if it was like self-defeating in a way that like they it was so knock around,

so rough and tumble. Great Suggs just has no regard for his own safety. It seems like at all time.

It's one of his most endearing qualities. And yeah, they just always kind of run it off the rails,

bleeding off the edges. So it just kind of makes you wonder at some point. It's like can we stack

this many guys that are like this together? Is this identity sort of what kind of it seems like a

major tweak is on the horizon and it's going to be who's that going to be? I guess it's the big

question. The unfortunate thing is that they just keep finding guys, but they tend to fit a template.

Anthony Black is another guy who's like kind of coming into his own, but he only compounds certain

issues because then spacing is a concern and then obviously if you want to leave more defense,

like it's just like they need something different, I think ultimately, but I just don't know where

you start cutting because all these guys feel so essential. What month was that where he was

he looked like a freaking all star? That was God was that like February? Where you at that

wrong? We were like, all right, this is happening and then just didn't have to get it out.

Could somebody look at him though as an asset like and see something that maybe they think other

people don't see and just bring him in because the value could be a good proposition to read because

he's not a failure. It's not like a rehabilitation as a prospect. You could see him as a candidate

if somebody who could see between the lines and see something in him. Absolutely.

So how are we feeling about the magic? Do we think that like this is if everything goes well,

they can reclaim some of the momentum going into last season? Like is that a possibility?

And if so, like how far reaching of a possibility is that? I think they're going to feel more

stable this year than they have in recent years. I just don't think it's going to be enough.

And that says honestly less about them than the Eastern Conference arms race more broadly.

It's like you see these other teams bringing in Yannis, bringing back major stars who were

outlast season with significant injuries and are going to transform as a result. This feels like

not same old same old but a little bit of hoping for the best. You're keeping the gang together,

you're trying to innovate on what you did and just kind of crossing your fingers.

I think it's going to be marginally improved. I just don't think it's going to be improved

enough to make them like a real player with the higher level teams in the East.

Yeah. It's going to be you're right. It's a shame when you ever you look at the East and we saw

a situation where the Hornets had a clear identity, a clear hierarchy that was cohesive and flowed

together. Granted the magic came in and sort of put them in the locker as I said, but it's a shame

that in this year where there were so many guys out that the East was so down that they just

sort of like added on to the dread and the despair of like, man, we can't even capitalize on this.

But coming out of last season, if we're able to sit here and say like, okay, if this X, Y, and Zegel

go right, you can imagine that organizationally they could are having the same conversations that

are even more intense to say like talk and it's easy to talk to yourself into like this year could

be different based on, you know, if all those other things go differently. I would go as that

farther and say I've talked to multiple MBA guys this summer who is watching carefully what

happens with this in case Franz or somebody comes available. That's not to suggest that he wants

out or that they intend to move him. But like if you're putting together a watch list of guys who could

be available, he's definitely like in the top 10, I would say maybe even the top five. So we're saying

that Ben Carrot is not available. We're saying that it's probably going to be Franz is because he's

the more because palo's distress. He's coming with like, you're looking at him like, this is going

shitly. Are we saying like it's better more productive to go with Franz since he had fewer.

I think that's the assumption from afar that that palo is more critical and if you had to choose

they would lean in that direction. But I don't know, they're specific thinking on those.

I think it's impossible to know because if things do go terribly, everything is on the table

including a complete front office overhaul. And so like you may know who Jeff Welman likes,

but you may not know who, if there's a future GM of the Orlando Magic or team president of the

Magic, who they prefer. Well, we could be up for those jobs. So if you were faced with that same

question, you want to live in Orlando, which way? Nope. Do you do you guys lean? I think there's

kind of two questions. There's who do you like in a vacuum? And there's who do you like in the bones

of this team? And I think Palo Bankero is really good and really talented. I don't think there's

reason to believe that if the team is like anything resembling this shape, he's going to dramatically

change his habits as a player. Like he seems pretty hard into the way he wants to play. And those

ways can be somewhat frustrating. Like the pull ups, where he's just not a good and a mid-range shooter,

resettling for shots. I mean, if you give him a ton of space, if you want to tear the rest of

this team down to studs and build around Palo, I think that could work. But unless you have the

appetite for that, I think I prefer France, who just feels a little more versatile in the what he

can offer a spacing challenged or a complicated magic team. Yeah, France a little bit more versatile.

I think schematically and how you could use him. It's

this team just they they've whiffed to on some of their like their attempts to sort of sprinkle

spacing and dynamic ball handling around it. Because I've always said that it's kind of the

Bucks model and the thing that made that work was that they had some extra handler Suku, who were

decent two way players like they granted their still time, but they haven't really gotten anything

out of Jason Richardson. He was like woefully inefficient with it, you know, in picking roll last

year with the ball in his hands, got just like flittering, you know, here in flittering,

is that even a word? It is now. Just like here and there kind of opportunities. And then,

you know, when you have a guy like a Tias Jones, these kind of like net neutral guards, it's just

not good enough. Like, you know, so hopefully with the addition of like everybody being healthy and

being there and doing what he does, you could, but I still feel like you're going to end up at the

same, the same spot. And I think that the rule changes that we were talking about on the last

episode, like Palo is a guy that kind of trades on that stuff too. So I wonder how that's going

to affect him. You had an interesting question before we started recording here, which was

Palo or Jalen Johnson. Essentially, I straight up think Jalen Johnson has stolen Palo's corner.

Like I mean, they're such different corners. Yeah, they how are they different to you? They're

the same size. They're both downhill. They both, they play entirely different ways. Do they not?

Palo and Jalen Johnson, how do they play differently? To me, to me, Jalen Johnson is a flow player,

right? Like, I mean, we talked about in discussing the Atlanta Hawks, some of their limitations is the

fact that he's not a one on one guy. Palo fancies himself one can be one, can be absolutely physically

dominant in some matchups. Here's the difference. When these teams hit the wall in the playoffs, Palo

rammed through that wall against several playoff opponents, not efficient, not pretty, but he will

put up points in desperation scenarios in ways that Jalen Johnson is like trying to find his place

in things still. And so I think even though they have similar physical tools, the way that they

approach the game is just dramatically different. Yeah, Palo is just more demonstrative, which is why

in the playoffs, he does seem to always rise to the occasion, but in a regular season game,

it's just like he hits his head against the wall and wants to do his own thing, which is why it's

tough. He's more disruptive than Jalen Johnson, who I felt like just to his detriment sometimes,

it doesn't assert himself enough, I would say. Yeah, you're right in terms of the, I mean,

we're talking through this in real time because I thought of this 10 minutes ago, but yeah,

isolation really, really heavily at Palo is ahead of him in post-up game. He's way, way,

way ahead of Jalen Johnson, but productivity, they're pretty lockstep. Palo 22.2, Jalen 22.5,

Jalen more active rebounder, way higher assist totals, and he's if he gets him in efficiency,

like across the board and convincing passion, box was minus 4.2 for Jalen to 1.4 for Palo. So it's

just kind of like maybe the flow thing that you're talking about as a detractor is actually a positive,

honestly, it's on some, I think it's absolutely a pot. It just depends on what you need. I think

the reality is Jalen Johnson could use a little Palo in his game and Palo could use a little Jalen

Johnson in his game, weirdly enough, but that's all dependent on what you have around them. And

the Orlando Magic, even if Palo was a perfect like flow citizen, they don't create flow. They're so

stymied by their lack of space, like and the way that they've run their offense over the last

couple years, and that's that's on Sean Sweeney, maybe more than anyone to fix. improv classes for

Palo a little a little more yes and from him. Who would you want in a vacuum though between Johnson

and Johnson and Palo? Now I'm starting to envision a world where Palo is playing for the Hawks team,

like you just swapped the right amount because I would hurt the Hawks. Yes, what he needs are

just like defensive wings around him. And the Hawks have that in abundance as we talked about in the

last episode. Yeah. I think this is brutal. I mean, it's quite a it's quite a rock. Again,

it's like they're so different in what they offer you and where they should be or think they are

in a pecking order. I think I would take Jalen Johnson because maybe the most disruptive thing you

can have on an NBA team or any basketball team is a player who thinks their role is very different

from what it should be. And maybe Palo Bankero is not a first option on offense. Maybe that's not

what he's cut out to do or best doing. And Jalen Johnson, even though he's not going to be that guy

probably, I don't think he has designs to be and that that feels more comfortable to me if I was

like putting a team together. Are we seeing Palo sort of because Julius Randle came into the league

with a similar thing. Granted, Palo was a number one pick, but it's kind of like Julius at some

point had like primary aspirations that you know, as his career war along, it was just kind of like

he morphed what's he devolved into like, you know, as we talked about, he kind of turned into a

different type of player and it kind of want you kind of wonder if we're going to hit that

turning point with Palo where it's kind of like, okay, that you're a more productive player if you're

this controlled version of yourself. I think the only issue with that is it took Julius Randle

like eight or nine years to do that. You know, if you gave him a polygraph test right now, he'd be like,

I'm a primary. And as he shoots out for the Brooklyn, that's he will be. He has to be. Yeah,

I think Jalen Johnson's ultimately the more versatile player. I think Palo's probably the more

superior talent. I know that might be damaging to hear for for Hawks fans, but like Palo has been a guy

in a big playoff situation. Like he's dominated playoff case. And like some of them have been chaotic.

He's done a little too much, but like that feels like an important marker in these trajectory,

whereas like we haven't seen that for Johnson last year was like a big test for him. Don't think

he really asserted himself, but I'll have more opportunities. I know what I'm getting with Palo and

probably wouldn't lean in that direction for now on this day. I think it's totally recent. We're

talking to this. Any other guys or things you want to talk about? I mean, there's I think there's

a bunch on the edges. I mean, let's talk about Vouch for a second who is not cut out for high

level playoff basketball on the way they're like the Celtics might have wanted him to be. But for

a team that's this spacing challenged, having anyone who can even remotely shoot at that position,

which Wendell Carter has like tried and fits and starts kind of, but in big games has not been

able to convert from the perimeter. Just having a big who can shoot it all, I think is something for them.

It's a nice little option, but this is the problem with Palo and we're talking about

surrounding with the right guys. Just feels like they have different options when you need certain

traits like, oh, there's more of the defensive minded guy. Sure. Wendell Carter is more somewhere in

between those and probably the ideal one when he's like right, but maybe not as big enough of a

force as a rim protector that you would like. And so it's like you never really get the right guy

because the guy next to the guy often needs to be just as important. We've seen this a lot in front

court players that are center types, but want to be power forward. It's like getting the optimal

round out of what you do. Just as challenging is getting the superior talent. Yeah.

I don't think he's going to play a huge role in a playoff series down the line, but again,

just as far as getting through the season, they need some options there.

Wendell Carter, another guy who picks up his share of injuries over time, they're going to have

to figure out how to string their center together rotation or their center rotation together over

the course of the year. And otherwise, I guess you're relying on Palo to play five. You're relying

on Goga. You're relying on small-ish ball units with like Jonathan Isaac, who is back yet again,

or Noah Penda, or whoever. It's kind of an odd front court mix for a team that wants to be physical

and kind of is and needs more shooting, but kind of doesn't have it even still. It's an odd group.

It's big of Jonathan Isaac to table the Senate run so he can go one more one more run with the

Orlando Magic. Well, more time around. How many times have they like declined and then brought them

back and just feel like there's real like you don't want to pay them 15 million dollars, but you

might be okay with paying him the minimum. Weird situation. Because at one point, I was like,

this if he could have stayed healthy could have been one of the most impact impactful,

versatile defenders in league. That's just kind of it. It just really failed to launch.

Absolutely never happened. I mean, also in the fringes, I kind of wonder how much more we'll see

of Jamal Cain this season who acquitted himself quite admirably. I thought of the playoffs in

France as absence. And so when you're looking at this team and trying to figure out, okay,

what are our best on ball defensive options as you're getting through 48 minutes? Him soaking up

15 to 20 of them. Maybe that's a little too much, but like that's a good that's a good use of his

time in the magic time. I think especially because then you move Jalen Suggs into more of like

a roving center field or kind of roll or Anthony Black into that ruin. Both those guys can kill

or play in the lanes. Classic like we just need to get a hang in a playoff game like that guy earned

a spot. All right, number 14, the Detroit pistons who believe it or not 160 games last year

and yet find themselves, I believe this would be eighth in our rankings in the east.

Is this not rude? It's a little rude. Believe it or not, they want 60 games.

Well, I think this just speaks to the exercise at hand here where I think we probably are

overrating things that just happened over the offseason. We've had months to just get excited

about these new things that are happening and by and large, the pistons did a lot of stuff,

but ultimately it seemed like a lot of work to regain what they previously had just with different

names. Yeah, I think there's a possibility that even if we weren't owed an odd by all the new

acquisitions in the Eastern Conference, just replicating 60 wins is hard. Everyone knows what's coming

now. Everyone knows exactly what Kate Cunningham is capable of is one of the best players on the

planet. They understand the system, the supporting cast. Intimately in some cases after exposing

their weaknesses in the playoffs. So I think just getting back to 60 was going to be hard.

And also when you think about this exercise is not just can you rack up regular season wins,

but who are you going to be in the games that matter most? We don't know how the pistons

are going to solve those problems. I don't know that any of these offseason additions really

fix them in any way. And this is a specific type of situation where there was such devastation

in the east that the records, it may be a situation where the records don't totally reflect

team growth because and then you factor in all those other things like there's the initial

gumption of a build of the pistons were just in hell for a long time. You think back about those

clips of Kate Cunningham staring into space like Kendall Roy and it's like he was they wanted to

just completely wipe that away and and and there's a hard chargingness of a young team and then

you combine that with you're right. Like the initial thing that happens with a young build like

this when they get to the playoffs is you the book is out and people start to study the book

and then there's also the personnel changes that we'll get into. So a lot of those things are

factoring in we'll get to I do think that I'm a little more I think most people generally are

pretty concerned I think about that fall of the NBA. Yeah I'll put I'll just say like I'm concerned

about some of the changes. Well the east was also more open last year and I think there's like four

to five teams that I really like but I don't really know how to sort them out and so they feel

cut below that. On top of that their off season has been messy and so not only are they trying to

replicate what they previously had with guys that I don't like as much Tobias Harris goes a guy who

is basically their go-to problem solver in the playoffs. They replacement with John Collins who's

a lesser version a different version maybe he adds a new dimension but like I think I wanted what

Tobias Harris had previously and then we have the whole Jalen Dern situation which is a god damn

mess they finally came to a resolution as we're recording this just 24 hours before he is now on a

$200 million extension. Congratulations I think I mean it's a nice nice trick of change absolutely

but is he satisfied with five years 200 million and everything that it took to get there. Yes

that's the question going forward is they have solved the actual like is he playing or not for the

pistons next year. I think the bigger questions lie ahead now of like what are they getting.

And I think the fact that the reporting as it is now like Sam Amick reported for the athletic that

what it took to get it over the finish line was Tom Gors coming to Jalen Dern or calling him or

whatever and saying we will treat you and your family well to make this right effect to please

like it's not great that this is this is the starting place we're talking upgrade from like

we know the friends of family room yeah I don't know what's going on exactly like the fancy popcorn

and the little sweet like they got the kettle corn and put different talks we're going

to Zarina we're going front we're going to like Neiman Marcus cookies or whatever that was the big

thing early internet I don't know what the popular thing I just what whatever kind of and I'm

wondering was it just they weren't being taken care of at all or not involved to I don't know

whatever you get to do to make things right I would love to be in the position to get a $200

$200 million deal and still feel maybe potentially disrespect yes and yet I think that is kind of

what happened I just think 200 million look it it smooths a lot of things over once those checks

are hitting his bank account that's going to feel pretty good I just don't think you forget when a

team tries to sneak away clause into their contract offer I don't think you forget when you consider

yourself an important part of the team in CSR Thompson's extension go really smoothly and easily

and he did it's something like there's really any animosity in that negotiation at all was

there reporting about his weight they put allegedly reportedly yeah that was one of the sticking

points as they started to leak the offer but something I'm saying did something instigate that

because I've we were joking during the regular season about he just is such an imposing a donnis

like physique like has that ever even been on the radar and I just missed it I mean I feel like

the only time I ever heard it was when he first came into the league like like generalized

question about his work ethic and then he comes into the league and yeah he's a physical force

I've never really watched him and thought oh he is playing this way because he's out of shape no it

was less out of shape I always wondered more about his effort and because he is such a physical

player and it seems to be at the like the root of where his powers come from and he had do you think

he took a turn not last year but midway through the season the year before that where things really

clicked for him and that's what set him on the journey where he made all NBA last year and that's

the sticking point there is like he had a breakthrough season where he got all the accolades that

typically would lead to him getting as much money as possible unfortunately the playoffs were

complete disaster and so I think that's the big question going forward like yes he's under contract

but if he has had issues in the past being engaged and if that is ultimately where he needs to be

to be his best self like do we have to start worrying about that like is he gonna like all the

sudden not be there in February when you need to grind out wins like this could get potentially

dicey pretty quickly I mean it not just in the long term but even for this season as as we were

talking about like how do you get to a good win total for the pistons how do you get to good standing

everyone is growing in the same direction last year everyone had a lot to prove collectively for

Detroit and now there's competing motivations there's guys who are fighting for these

sorts of contracts or to validate them or to prove someone wrong but in a way that we'll see if

it's productive or counterproductive to the team it's just I think this relationship between

Jalen Dern and the pistons as much as I would love to put all this to bed and never talk about it

again it feels like one that's still in need of some repair yeah it was weird to Trasian Langdon

was like kind of referencing Zion Williamson offhandedly while talking about the Jalen Dern situation

at media day and it's just like don't do that there really isn't much of a kind of

Trasian was like a math major I think he calls and trying to think of like just reading the room

I don't I don't know if that's a that's just a left-situational awareness

I'm missing it mate I don't know I've never met Trasian I'm assuming a lot I'm just like I don't know

that's that's a big one to put out there like and the only way to do that would be like the work

ethic thing like you all are talking about the parallels there are physical specimen crazy

athlete who is just sort of depended on that superpower to be the easy button for every situation

sometimes you have to kind of like convince dudes to to grow and things and that's about like

having the right people around them and things like that but like bringing Zion into it just

feels like a really totally different situation and say whatever you want to your staff behind closed

doors as you're negotiating what sounds like just like a frustrating process for everybody

I just don't think Zion's name is such a third rail because he what he stands for is like

not a bust in terms of talent but a bust in terms of attitude and work ethic and all of the like

extra curricular things that come with being a professional athlete and so putting that on

Jalen Durin after he had a career year yes with the disappointing finish I just don't think

it's fair in any sense and certainly didn't make any of this any easier so that's the question as

this stands right now I think there's also a bigger question going forward where it's just like

we saw the playoffs and obviously Durin didn't seem like a healthy like contributor for success

there I think there is an overall question about the way this team is constructed and how

essential he is to their next level to getting to be a consistent winner to being a team that

can be at the highest level on the playoffs I think it's almost like a backdoor or a star Thompson

question because I came away from last postseason and we talked about this during the playoffs I

thought the core as it was proven to be was cade in a star and they gave us our extension pretty

quickly and it's taken Jalen Durin for Duran yeah a ton of time to get his own money I do wonder

going forward like do we think Duran is still a part of what makes this team special I think he can

be yeah but he's going to have to show that he can be a different sort of player who is capable of

working through that level of physical resistance of a playoff series strategic resistance of a

playoff series I just think so much about his game right now is a blunt instrument and he's super

young has a lot of basketball ahead of him a lot that he can do and has shown like little bitty

flashes of doing as far as like ball scale or mid-range shooting it's something we talked about

on the pod all last season I just think that the pistons if anything after last playoff run need to

lean into those aspects even more like the season should not be about how do we replicate exactly

what Jalen Durin just did in the regular season how do we get him back to all NBA form I want to see

him take more chances I want to see him be put in positions to try different things you just need him

getting into a frame of mind or he's working around problems like that kind of lateral thinking

on a basketball court that is not just I drive through people and dunk over people because when

you pull that chair out from under him a kid he had nothing to go to and now is I think just their

defining problem in the playoffs as much as anything his roller numbers really really took a die

from the regular season I mean let's just I mean let's be frank and honest about the so we're

about the pistons here the reason that their core is specialist because they have two unique players

and Durin isn't one of them I mean Kate is a jumbo sized guard who is a pick and roll my strove

we can just you know extol his virtues all day long on the basketball court but then a

star just to be clear is one of he's generationally special as a defender in super super versatile

and I think the pistons had the leverage to look at the market and be like listen you know Jalen

you're benefiting from this player type that you're playing with guys like Kate elevate guys like

Durin and there are more even though during this special I can understand why the pistons were

thinking the way that they were because in the playoffs you know the magic were just like we're

going to put a lot of chairs in front of you so that you can't you can't we're going to just you

know blockade this highway of pick and roll and he just didn't have any answers because he just

doesn't have any dependable self creation I think he's going to have to be he's going to have to level

up you know defensively I think he's going to have to because he's in this category where he's

not quite as generationally special as like a surge box or you know a Clint Kampela those were

the things those guys offered who were playing with similar types of guards to kind of up their

two way value if he's not going to be like a super offensively dynamic player right I want to

give him some benefit of the doubt because I think if the if the pistons were a free and easy

well spaced shooting heavy team I don't think Jalen Dern runs into the wall and quite the way

that he did but they're also so long as the sartons and see if they're not going to be that team

and a lot of that is on a star to navigate like how he's attacking how he's creating him's like a

threat and projecting as a threat from the dunker spot as a cutter as a facility pass or all those

things but Jalen Dern has a slightly more challenging job than even a guy like Clint Kampela did

and with that challenge he just like absolutely failed it like complete flunking of a playoff

series and so from that I would hope he kind of tears things down to studs and takes a hard look

at what he can and can't do maybe that's expecting too much when you're fighting for $200 million

I don't know I think he's a prime contributor to their identity but perhaps not a foundational

player for it like he represents a lot of what I think they're aspiring to which is like defensive

focused physical just like brute strength and power and that just seems like Detroit basketball

it was in the past and it is now we're just gonna punch you in the mouth problem is when you get

punched in the mouth and you don't punch back like that's a bad sign and so that I mean yet you

lose the fight if you're just repeatedly getting punched in the face it seemed bad it seems like a bad

thing I wouldn't recommend that stretch have you done that before no you have a brother you've

been punched in the face brotherly punched in the face but not like brawl punched in the face

those are like full on-punched I have friends you have a lot of brothers who have been like really

seriously punched in the face I've been smacked pretty I'm not gonna call it civil household

I know your mother listens to the show is there anything she doesn't know that you'd like to say okay

not not as far as that goes I mean she she's seen it hurt all that shit have you guys seen those

like slap fighting uh it's tools now no what it's not pro magnanimous shit I just can't even do it

it's like a bunch of like really large guys with chalked up hands snacking each other in the face

and the guy who drops loses should we challenge like the fantasy football guys I'm gonna say each

other but I think we should be a team okay and we kind of rotate it's like a line of guys right our

team versus their team we go slap back to the line slap back to the line and whichever team but

like boughs out first it's just like CTE city man it's like it's really hard to watch just think

about it which which podcast could we challenge to this because I think we could do quite well for

ourselves just since been punched in the face once we've talked about we have talked about it somehow

somehow on our wikipedia it's an evergreen topic on this spot that's right but with dern I think

clearly he fits what they're going for the question is like they as a team as we're kind of

circling need to level up especially offensively it's crazy to think because this was the ninth

rank offense last year just like you get into a playoff situation things really reveal themselves

and one thing that got revealed was like when kade isn't like just dominating it's tough to find

guys to fill the void Tobias was the guy and if you're paying a guy $200 million you would hope

you'd be able to do it you're paying another guy close to $200 million you'd hope he would be able

to but two of their three core pieces if those are what we're saying these guys are just like create

spacing concerns for a team that needs space around kade cunning him so it's tough ultimately I

think you you probably need to lean one way or another or at the very least and it comes to not

crunching time in the playoffs you have to be able to lean one way or another and be able to

kind of like bench one of them because you need to focus more on the spacing and so I think we've

seen time and time again I think it's gonna be a star I think regardless of during figuring things

out I think it's ultimately gonna be an assar thing I like I'm cool with all of that as far as

where the pistons are and the long-term project of making this a sustainable team this is a good

place to be and you have kade you have a star you have a really good player and jail and during who

you're trying to figure out what to do with or maybe maybe he isn't as essential as he had hoped

he would be or they had hoped he would be that's fine in the short term you've taken away all

of that secured you got from Tobias all of that installation you had all of that secondary ball

handling and you've replaced it with John Collins which I am here to tell you will not work because

we know definitively and empirically it does not work a perfectly fine player but asking him to achieve

and produce in the stakes that Tobias Harris just did that's not John Collins like that that's

not what he's capable of even just the idea that he's gonna be the guy on the weak side who the bomb

possession like the the hot potato ends up with and he has to do something with it I just I would

I would never want to be in that business personally and the fact that the pistons signed up for it

is baffling to me it's interesting that you said the security blanket of Tobias Harris because

I don't really know that there we've ever been in a position to say that at any other point in

his career right he's just been in this situation of playing with other good players and and not quite

this is a credit to him I mean he had a good season he like bailed them out of it he would be in

these positions where you know like we were talking about like blocking the highway of the

Cade during pick and roll and he would just kind of have to make you know lemonade out of lemon

possessions and and shifting from that to a lot of the time he's scoring you know you're talking

about post scoring mid-range scoring things like that tough shots but shifting from that to Collins

you're putting an even more severe dead end I feel like because even though Tobias is more of a

score his passing numbers like assists per 100 his turnover percentages better than Collins his

potential assists his secondary assists like Tobias is almost literally twice as better than him

in all of those categories so you're just you're talking about a dude who is he as dynamic a score

as Tobias no and he's not as dynamic a playmaker no we just he just doesn't play that stuff

composite basketball like he he is doing his John Collins stuff over here and that stuff is

impressive and sometimes good sometimes really useful for minutes at a time or stretches at a time

but there's a reason guys like Tobias are being snatched up by contenders right like they see and

value what he does in a team context many teams now have tried to value John Collins in a team

context and found him pretty wanting and so maybe that's unfair in some sense like John Collins is

just a guy trying to make a living and produce and and be a good basketball player but when you're

a member of a team like the pistons after the run they just had you're you're trying to see if

these guys can compete and be held to the threshold of contending teams and I just don't think he's

that kind of player at all I think his best value might be ultimately is like a small ball center

that is it to buy his replacement a beef stew replacement more than right yeah because he gives him a

little bit more flex and he's a little bit more reliable if only because you don't know if beef stew

was going to be available considering he was probably punched someone in the face in the previous

month and also just like the stretch and beef stews game just kind of disappeared at a certain point

too and so like if they have that tool and their toolbox that makes them a little bit more

versatile because last post he's like I can blame about this a lot but he just didn't have any

sort of option to go to for that when Paul Reed gave them like five good minutes it was it was a

revelation yeah so maybe that's the thinking get a little bit more flexible but in the other like

voids that they fill this seems like a lot of the same thing where it's a lot of veteran journey

men shooters you hope that they have a good year shooting it and if they do you ride it one of

them is Kevin Herder who didn't do that specifically for the Detroit business last year a shooter who

is not shooting well Victorian Prince who real coin flip guy like shows up sometimes the artist

formerly known as yes I will say genuinely good that Torian Prince is in the NBA like yet a really

scary neck injury that that could have gone very very badly in terms of the future of his life so

the fact he's out here great expecting him to be a difference maker for Detroit I'm just not

not on that level then Isaiah Joe yes fills the energy scorer off the bench roll but has a little

bit more nuance then I think some of the guys in the past who have filled that I think this was a

team that was very north south and bringing in Isaiah Joe gives them an east west component where

they can run a little bit more like act like Herder the idea Herder was to do that I was really

high on the eyes it was a great value for them I think they would be for a second round pick

granted okay see was liquidation sale like basically but Isaiah Joe you know was good enough to play

for the for the thunder and I think that he this is a great pickup for them because I just think he's

going to add a nice directional you know ability for this offense right a good player a good piston no

caveats like that's exactly what they need is movement shooters who do a little of what Duncan Robinson

does but in a slightly different way like and you can play those guys together too just because

they're physical profiles I just think you need more ways to get those sorts of players on the floor

do you think a quarry in his first year can be a contributor for this team in doses yeah I think

people are gonna really come to like him just about Detroit fans I think they're gonna really love

this kid because he is electric I mean you know we talked a lot about how granted I don't

should we mention that we already taped a version of this why not I'm just gonna say what I said

before but he was kind of considered the you know they've been kind of looking for an off-speed

pitch to whenever Kate isn't on the floor you want to be dynamic you want to have optionality and

you know Jay and I be I think was the original idea for that the speed of a quarry is different

than Ivy even in that he he varies in his speed he's very quick he's not just kind of like zero to

six Ivy was just like I'm either going a hundred miles an hour you know it's like he went one

speed and that was very fast right a quarry is twitchy start stop I think he's gonna be he can

even play with Kate some and I think it could be pretty fun yeah but how likely is he to jump on a

live stream and say some truly absurd shit hopefully very likely because I would plug it for that

but the content reasons alone I would you subscribe I mean I think for to be a professional you know

we got to stay on top of the news just to see it yeah but I mean clearly what they were getting

from Dennis Jenkins at the best of times you could see the lift that that gave the offense and so

this is this is kind of the push and pull of where the pistons are is they need more shooting they

also need more ball handling they also need jail and during to get it together that's a lot of

stuff that needs to happen at the same time and have making it all work within a lineup that

also needs to fit the feature of Sar Thompson not not an easy job I think this is shaping up to be

a real crossroads moment for Trajan Langdon like assembling this team because a lot of the guys

were talking about either have had mixed results in the past or we're hoping that under like

Cades like a watchful eye can be something a little bit more than they were previously and that

ultimately falls on the GM in the front office having the right eye to like find these guys and

bring out the best of them and I'll say this as time has gone on the Troy Weaver revisionist

historians have started to like come out of the woodwork I think part of it is because the

O.K.C. Mafia has really dispersed throughout the league and like so now you have a lot of believers

in him because he was obviously a big factor in building that previous versions of the team.

Yeah the messaging of that Mafia being like oh Troy Weaver actually drafted all these guys

all these pieces that are making this business team that's a Troy Weaver job how many of those

draft picks are still gonna be there in the end because well he sought out Jalen Erin

he did and he he was a star and did not be in game all I was trying to catch your old tone I was

like Troy Weaver did do that it's true there they're just I think with it there is a little bit of a

tone of like the Mark Jackson you can't appreciate the butterfly without brazenly caterpillar or

whatever like it's not untrue it's just maybe overstating slightly how high level playoff teams

come together right and I think that the case would be he just didn't do the easy thing which is

like import a bunch of mercenary shooters to put around Kade so you could jack the the regular

season wins at a time when like who cared having said that it was such low hanging fruit like why not

just do that like you also had a ton of cow space and ton of opportunities these to the touring

princes are just around you didn't do it I think they they're trying to do it I mean I think heard

or heard or just failed to do it we're talking early okay it's like under Weaver and so

when it's a good developmental enterprise too it's like it's not like it's holding back a

rookier second year player who's trying to you know bringing their game along right really

traumatized Kade in those years with it I mean the some of the some of the worst spacing I just I

would watch and write about those teams I was like this is mine it's like just like a lot of pity

for Pistons fans watching those teams I mean that's the hope right is we've seen Kade be absolutely

straight jacket it in those early years we've seen him now try to make sense of the puzzles of a

pretty complicated team build think about how incredible he's gonna look when this when everything

is in place right when all the pieces do fit perfectly together when he has the vision of like

a truly competitive team around him and they're taking baby steps there they're getting there

over time he's ready for it and so can the Pistons get on his timeline now and get it together fast

enough that's that's really the fundamental issue for them yeah I think they're in a prove it year

and clearly they decided to not go the let's import a superstar or a high earner in order to like

round things out we're gonna dig in in the crates a little bit and it kind of is incumbent on

lying down to find the right guys in order to bring up this because at this point they won 60

games like there's no excuses for like taking a step back yeah we're projecting that but like I

can definitely see this team again just printing regular season wins as a result but I think it's

ultimately gonna come down to the personnel around Kade I frankly would love to hear the counterpoint

perspective if there's people out there that like really believe in the Pistons and saw something

in who they were even in the regular season or who they turned out to be in the playoffs and are like

no this is gonna get ironed out so quickly like the x-y and zero the ways this team is gonna take an

immediate jump I would genuinely love to hear that perspective I just can't make heads or tails of

any of that kind of thinking as we try to project their season defensively are they dropping off

in a serious way and my only thought as far as that goes is they are one of those teams for whom

effort was a huge part of the formula and when that is the case sometimes you're every year it

can change a little bit and you just go from you know of being a truly elite defense to a very

good defense and and maybe you know if jalen duren isn't completely locked in that could factor

into that too yeah I think it's more of a during question again because that's the advantage of

having a just a giant playmaker like K like K to saw is like the foundation for being a good

defense but they need to be elite to offset some of the offenses of concerns that I think we have

and and maybe we're not giving a star enough credit for potentially being even better than he's

already been including on defense right we talk about his offense all the time and I don't think

he's gonna be a great shooter anytime it's more about how does he do the other stuff at a high

enough level to compensate but if any wing player in the league right now is gonna make a run at being

defensive player the year or a realistic candidate opposite wimby or take advantage of a season where

wimby doesn't qualify or whatever I would think it would be a star and his brother yeah one they're

both one of two athletes you know all right when we take a quick break come back talk about the

next three teams on our list this episode is brought to you by sam's club during the holidays

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depot all right we're back and i have rolled up my sleeves here oh i didn't notice that because

we're going to talk about the Miami heat our number 13 team the hardest working team in the NBA

there's that part of it and there's also this is what i imagine suppose doing right now and his

and his office because seems like he has a task in front of him trying to make sense of this team

they did the hard work of getting yana's in the door they have the star duo of bam and yana's but

now it seems like there's a lot of work to do here but that's where spow lives that's where

i want to be clear and the dungeon everyone should live like compared to the meaningless churn

of the other version of the Miami heat these are good problems you want to impact that you're all

about the work i'm all about if you have the choice of have yana's on your team and some problems

that come with it versus have Tyler hero on your team and do whatever it was that they were doing

i think you take this one yeah i tried i tried to get into rob and he just pips it back to to my job

to what we're talking about what do you want to dig into the work the work as it relates to what

i don't know it's like do you find it defines you do you feel like you find meaning from it

i'll brother you don't even know that's a whole other problem i just want to comment some

on something broadly about the Miami heat and we're talking about they're all about work and

things like that this is a note to basketball reference we need to tweak the top 10 thing because

they have helped us on wideside as the number 11 Miami heat player of all time and i just i just

i just straight win shares i think it's win i just think we got it we got to make some kind of

adjustment there so i don't yeah it's a certain type of legend i don't think he'll get his

his jersey retired maybe somewhere right next to is it what is it michael jordan they have there

yeah hard to deal with michael jordan heat legend you know it's hard to compare

it's true um so how are you guys feeling about the heat in general i found them to be one of the

toughest teams to rank because obviously they have so much star power now but it just feels like

trying to figure out an offense is going to be a youngster i think it's going to take some working

but i i believe in the pieces involved i certainly believe it is bolster i just think the defense

is going to be very good to great and the offense will be good often enough to make them

competitive with almost anybody in the east and so i think the high the high watermarks are going

to depend a little on matchup play it's going to depend on hitting the right teams in the play

off at the right time but i think they have a shot to be very competitive through two rounds of

the playoffs probably maybe give someone a run for their money may go on a run to the conference

final that might be where they tap out but that's a great team if that's what they turn out to be

do they have a chance to be the best defense in the east maybe so i mean so who are the contenders

for that particular title do we think i mean the nicks but the word protection is going to be a big

issue for them yeah with their changes and things like that um so detroit as another great regular

season defense tarano is the one that i'd be particularly worried about as far if i were one of

these other east teams because they could be even better box could be pretty good yeah i think

there's a pathway and you guys are going to laugh considering when we last left the calves

James Harden was just getting burned to pieces but like they're front three of watson

mobilee allen is pretty formidable yeah i think i think there's going to be good would you say it's

one of the best center rotations in the in the league well as mobileeous center see that's a

hair worth splitting i'm just gonna sit over here yeah well but that's the formula right they need

to be a juggernaut defensively yeah because i imagine whatever offense they coupled together

is just going to be very muddy i think the premise of yannis and bam davion Mitchell

andru wiggins especially like that is if that doesn't get you into being a top six or seven

defense i really don't know what well all those guys need to stay healthy to various degrees

they need to figure out how to work together but then everything they need to batten down every

possible hatch and they should be really flexible they should be really adaptable i love in

particular the way that bam i mean so agile as a big and he can guard anyone on the floor and now

you have a really high level rim protector behind him something that they've tried in fits and

starts with guys that collo wear and whatnot but this is a different level of thing would you say

that i mean you you would have to if you're going to be offensively optimistic about this team you

would have to come in with the with the presumption that yannis is going to be in the half court

having the ball in his hands constantly and then you have you have these guys that are just kind of

orbiting that what you can see that they've made an effort to do that by bringing in

tim hardaway junior by bringing in clay tomson who just didn't sign up for whatever that was with

the maves the way they didn't implode it obviously i've talked a lot about you know ryan con well the

rookie that they brought in i think that he shoots the ball dynamically enough that he could play

and then pelil arson which he's like to varying degrees of approval i think as we talked on this

this pod but they obviously believe in him but i i think you're just gonna

is the question ultimately because we know that yannis he deserves to have the ball in his hands

and like going downhill a lot is there a next candidate though that we think that should that

needs to step forward in terms is a davi ab michael who can i have the ball in his hands or like who

do is that the question that is kind of outstanding and then bam getting out of yannis is way i think

is another thing yeah that that's the part i'm kind of most concerned about is how like spatially how

do you want to talk with these guys around the floor but as far as who has the ball and who is running

the offense i think a lot of it is going to run through yannis pretty directly and then the other

piece of it is going to be more kind of a heat throwback in a sense to the offball movement of

their shooters and getting some of those guys activated like clay is not just a knockdown guy like

he still moves really well around the perimeter and can turn and face really effectively tim hardaway

junior also really good that pedal arson is if you're on the shooting but such a good connector

that he's going to find those guys to and yeah for ian con will can play at all if myron gardener

turns out to be a worthy rotation piece like i thought they did a really good job considering

their circumstances and their finances of scraping together like a pretty decent shooting core

around these guys they're not all perfect players it's not airtight but they have some chances

to create real space i think we found out over the past few years probably since deame got traded

to the bucks the yannis is a pretty particular sort about what he wants and what he expects

he when i think it was telling when the bucks tried to make a go of it last year they lean right

into him being absolutely everything i don't think he gives that up willingly even to go to a team

like the he and doesn't expect some sort of the same sort of expectations there having said that

i'm curious how much spoke and influence him to do a little thing like do things differently

one and then on top of that how much is it incumbent on bam to be the one who is more flexible

obviously started to step out more obviously he had the big eighty three point game and so

just like is he ultimately going to have to just step aside and be the one who's

dedicating more time to spacing and doing other things in order so that yannis gets exactly

what he's expecting i would love to dig into this this to meet ease of exactly what you were

heading out with our existential question do you want it you want to tease up yeah it's just

what's supposed biggest challenge and not just offense or defense like what specifically

schematically because for this team it really does come down to the x's and how they're you know

it's because they can't go out and like get some guy unless they find someone the fringes they

elevate in fast track they have done that but not on this sort of accelerate timeline it really

is like you got to make do with what you have yeah and i think that starts with your most versatile

players and like it's kind of sucks to be that sometimes to be the guy who's always asked to change

an adapt and make space for other people but bam can do so much to the point that he's the real

journey over the last couple of years in terms of how he's actually used in the heat offenses and

it's going to be an adventure again as far as where you put him on the floor and i think that to me

is the biggest challenge like spatially where is he in relation to yannis that's going to make all

of this work and can those guys have any actions that are like directly involving each other that

aren't just switchable by fours and five like it's it's hard to build a lineup that has an answer

for yannis and an answer for bam but like that's not a pair that can run pick and roll that's not a

pair that's easy to have on the same side of the floor for basically any reason because of the easy

cross matching that can result and so where do you put bam do you want him top of the floor doing

running dribble handoff do you want him at the elbow kind of facilitating are you parking him on the

perimeter at times to space for yannis because he's probably the better three point shooter of the two

i really don't know and of all the coaches in the league i can't wait to see a higher expulster tries

to solve it yeah i mean bam is the the more capable candidate you don't want to just put him in you're

you're talking about the difference between the number of steps that the the help side defenders are

going to be comfortable taking away from him and it's like i wouldn't put him in the dunker spot

for that reason that i would say just keep him out there and and you know he's he got up to the point

where he's like in that thirty six percent range he probably will be able to run that back i would

expect and you're talking about them not being like picking role partners you would think about

even expanding it a little bit further it's like what if you have a shooter screening within that

three main game it's like maybe that's clay you can pull a little gravity that way and then you

got a couple more shooters out there that could work um i just think the the question the biggest

question and the biggest challenge i think you nailed it it's it's fascinating and it's a little

bit similar about like it being yannis it's a little bit similar to what we were talking about

with like mycenaury and jamer ant where this is even more and a more intense representation of

the wars between spulstra and yannis where some of the more fascinating things and just the blood

bath grudge matches between those two and and series this is going to be really fascinating to see

if he's going to have the and if any organization we're going to do it it would be the heat because

from erison to riley to spow they are a lock step bothers an holy spirit type situation where

you know spulstra stood up to lebron he stood up to some superstar so i don't think that he's

going to like shy away from that task yeah like that match up i mean i would love to know the thing

that was in the heat war room that they were always scared that yannis was going to do or figure

out and now they have the chance to help him figure it out and he's playing with the guy who is

usually the one doing it bam was one of the better more effective yannis wallers in the in the lead

it's funny because the heat have such a reputation of being say conservative at least with

their approach tightly wound you know that they're still measuring guys body fats like every day

there are real stories honestly someone should put together a leaflet of all the fun times like

what they had to do like a vision like guys just like in the the boxers like the the trash bags

is trying to get weight so that they could suit up against the real land of magic on a one's day

like it's that type of shit and obviously riley is just like a hard driver but spul historically

probably one of the more progressive minds at least when it comes to just organizing and just like

finding new things last year was a prime example of that where like a new idea popped up elsewhere

and they adopted it it worked for a time until it didn't but even didn't back to like the LeBron

heat era where he's like going to organ duck practices in order to develop more of a small ball

approach even in the doldrums of like the Hassan white side era you have like justice winslow

playing center like real ugly delicious like this guy's a wing but he's actually built like a

center right I think of them is like the doctor Nick of of the NBA where it's like who's doctor

from the same body yeah where it's like lost on me at one point he accidentally put a guy's arm

for a leg oh okay guys okay yeah he's like this guy with an arm for a leg and a leg for an arm

like that is what they do yeah we'll see how I'm gonna get by the end of this but if there's a

team to figure it out it does feel like it would be Miami yeah I think that's why that ugly

delicious quality and then like I mean the making chicken salad out of chicken shit is they're so

capable at it that I look at every heat second on pick every undrafted guy they pick up and think

there's something here like this guy could end up playing serious minutes by January

February and we would not blink an eye it's part of the reputation it's part of the culture

it's part of their scouting apparatus which is top notch like the heat are our first class

organization now they have some first class talent and it's always interesting to see what they

choose to do with it not just like how they optimize it but like day to day what do they want

Yannis doing over the course of the regular season how do they want to tap into his best instincts

as a ball handler in a way that doesn't take things away from other people and I think one of

the things we kind of talked around is like if he and BAM aren't gonna be a two-man game what are

like the inverted pairings that are gonna work and coincidentally enough like all of the inverted

pick and roll pairings with Yannis are stockier stouter guards and wings like guys who are good

screensetters Clay Thompson Tim Hardaway Jr. Davion Mitchell like those are guys who can absorb a

hit and flare out and hit a shot and that's a great place to start a lot of kind of improvisational

offense walking into like half fast break situations anything in the half court that you want to

get into like it's an easy premise that I think is gonna give them something to work with that

works around a lot of the the hand ringing about the spacing involved with this team.

Do we think that the presence of Yannis could potentially sin I know we talked a little bit

about before with BAM but I want to just unpack it just a little bit more about you know

it's I wonder if we're underestimating how much of an offensive wilderness he could be sent into

because of the amount of dribble twos that he has taken and that has been an area of focus for him

but based on past roster builds you know he shot 154 of them this past season and he only shot 37

percent on him it's kind of like if he's not taking that that was the glimmer of hope of expansion

it's just kind of like where does he go and do you get the most out of him if you're not getting him

as a screener or you stagger him with second units and use him that way and you get some of that like

I kind of wonder if the BAM is the guy who is a little bit lost ultimately for them it's it's

going to be a lot on him and yeah we talked about the ways that spoke and maybe help that or we'll

have to help that but BAM's navigation possession to possession moment to moment is one of the

deciding factors for this team it is with any team that doesn't have space like you could say the

same thing about a star Thompson right it's like if you were kind of jammed in the corner teams are

helping off of you what do you choose to do with that opportunity and BAM is a really intuitive player

I think offensively though he's a little more intuitive with the ball and he's a he's a willing

off ball mover but they're gonna have to find the patterns of movement that makes sense for him and

Yana simultaneously and that part is not gonna be easy I imagine there's going to be a good deal

staggering but unlike most times where teams try to split their best two players it's often like

two ball handlers and two like dynamic offensive players that they're just giving their own time to

it is odd that it almost feels like the staggering might just benefit their overall defense

yeah it's just like every minute of the game we're gonna have one of the best front court defenders

in the league out there and so maybe there's a way for BAM to have his own time but it

almost requires somebody else to drive it to him and so it's gonna be a delicate balance I'm

curious as a result of that like who is the guy that steps up on the fringes in order to supplement

everything we're talking about honestly the names are like you're digging through the crates here

even for a Miami Heat team maybe it's a guy that they haven't found yet is there like one guy you

guys are looking over the roster looking over some of the names you're like that I think that can be

a guy that we just haven't seen yet I mean Pelot Larson is gonna be a guy I think that's

we are already kind of penciling him in right we haven't talked about Simone Fontechio who I think

will play meaningful shooting minutes as well and it's like a different physical profile than the

guys we've already mentioned the other piece of this that I think gets overlooked because of the

Yannis trade is like Bobby Portis is kind of like an emotional support stretch big for Yannis who

he knows how to play with and so with all of these other variables everything else he's trying to

figure out in his basketball life in his actual life having this one like baked in thing I think

is a really nice way to ease him talking about the iguanas like he's the deal with the wildlife

everyone does okay yeah I mean Portis is functionally the only backup center unless you believe in

Nick Richards so kind to do but not that much so minutes what about you is there any guy you like

on the heat roster he bred my mind I mean Portis is the guy that jumps out as he just really never

gets talked about in this situation and it is fascinating because of the chemistry and give you

a little bit of space I mean he probably has a little more confidence than his confidence to be

he's he's very aspirational we'll say that he lives up to it in many situations and I will just

be interested to see how they stagger that that trio of Portis and and bam and Yannis because it

does seem like they could get a lot out of the the synergy that those guys have preexisting it is

fascinating the guy that got attached to Yannis because the contract they don't want to

the books anymore and then on the flip side the one former draft pick that got left behind in

Nickelodeon which is just like it really is like if we're talking to actions over words like

that crystallize how your franchise thought of you I mean Nick Liovic I don't know where we're

gonna find him over the course of the season just like wandering around somewhere in the middle of

the country the heat kind of like forgot he was on the team for a while maybe he's going to like

Sioux Falls I don't know just like dispatch him because it does not seem like Eric's pulse

retrust him I can't say blame him I don't know that Yovic has ever brought anything definitive to

the table other than the vague cloud of kind of having a lot of different skills but none that

actually feel secure and so that's a tough player to place on a team like this like whatever chance

Yovic had to be a heat rotation player I think has sailed that was like the one bit of worry I had with

the Larsen extension as well because like the tracker given with Yovic Yovic getting that money

and then not living up to it is just like you always worry about that having said that did you

guys see pellet larson the highlights from now we're talking you're a qualifiers Justin welcome 30 plus

in three straight games were most of the people you recognize from European clubs available there

not so much not worried about it. John is did play though so maybe he always does I'm sure he was

impressed he took no he's like this guy he scored 40 on Sweden let's go well that's the difference

though is like pellet larson is a spoke guy. If anything Eric's bolster over the course of last

season I'm sure had him like pinned up on a wall somewhere it's like this everyone needs to play

more like pellet larson. It's got a beefcake calendar of pellet larson. It's beefcake but it's

all guys to move the ball. It's just willing facility. Should we do that? What willing facilitators?

Yeah it's just a flip calendar yeah but it's just guys making like crisp chess passes. Here's

the silly meachage. Here's Nikhil Alexander Walker you know just just going through it. It's

real like chesty joke out there for you. It's right there. Okay number 12 the Toronto Raptors

with koai in tow finally and he's just a different guy showing up to media day with multiple accessories.

Yeah it's got a headband he's got an arm band I'm just like lot going on here also just all the

sudden just charismatic congenial like just really seems like he's happy to be there and was

looking to get along and go along. It's an incredible PR strategy. I've just like be a different

person just giving a shit. Yeah do slightly more than the bare minimum. Yeah and watch us people

like us are legitimately amazed by it. Bold over a falling back. Yeah it's like there was

like an interview with him from like a fashion week kind of thing over the summer. Did you

all see this where he was like really engaging it's like is this dude just really just willfully

making this choice just when he when he wants to do this. Yeah but somebody was interviewing it was

just like he I don't know if it's at a party he might have been having a good time for all we know

and that was helping maybe he was drunk at media day. I don't know what I don't want to speculate too

much. I think I can help a lot of people get through media day. Society being in front of a mic

and a bunch of people you know a little nip on the side. I'm not sure that was his issue. I don't

think it was the anxiety. I think it was the first choice to be boring you know. Yeah well he's

here finally I'll be honest I have no bandwidth for the like I'm coming home to to like cement my

legacy with Toronto they paid him and they're paying him handsly on an extension and the good thing

is once you pay quiet if he's healthy he does show up so if he's available to show up he will play

incredibly well last year the irony of all ironies probably the best that he's ever looked he's been

absolutely dialed. All of the Clippers half court efficiency like all their high points like they

had kind of surprisingly good numbers if you like went down through there and you would look at

be like what that doesn't make any sense and you'd look and it'd be like yeah co-I was just

fucking brilliant in every possible way I mean he was he was unbelievable it's a very optimistic

it's both of confidence that this is going to continue because it's a risk but if you're the

raptors and you're in this situation like spinning what they spawn into him go for it absolutely.

Well that's the thing under the circumstances they traded somehow the less healthy player in

Brandon Ingram and your favorite and historically my favorite player into one who is Brandon Ingram

but great and I need the two of you right now to talk me down on the Toronto raptors because

I was incredibly moved by their playoff performance I was feeling energized by everything we were

seeing from especially the young stars and up and coming stars of this team and you add the

version of quite that we just talked about to it when they were already dealing with Ingram's

injury and quickly's injury and so much and they still were so good I just I want to believe

ridiculous things about this team and I need you to to bring me back down to earth. I wish I could

be a wet blanket because you know how much I love doing that yeah unfortunately it just it

makes too much sense they really just took what they did well in the playoffs and just like added to

it they they needed like a clear cut offensive guy to come out there to build upon what they built

with barns and I also go back and just look at what Scotty did in the playoffs like I was watching

some highlights I was looking up the numbers from that it's way better than you thought and I

was already just like over the moon about it 24 6 and 9 the nine were assists in a playoff

series that they almost won that's that's wild I think he's ready for a jump and like I think this

team has something you just runs it back I'll be pleased but if you think about what this team needs

it's like okay they needed half court facilitating which you know getting quickly back a

little bit about that but he lean scoring a little bit you need pull-up shooting you need a

little bit more you need better decision making and process about what shots to take you need a

transition handler you're just like co-I literally box for button granted box for box he's better

than branding or meant every possible way but he upgraded all of those things so you just kind of

you subtracted a guy who was a negative and exacerbating that problem for a guy who's going to help

in every possible way defensively they have the potential to roll out some line-ups if they ran

out like a quickly bearer koai scottie cmb if they decide you know rim protector thing still kind

of outstanding but that lineup has a potential to be a downright terror when you could you could

plug Jamal shed into that group to who just signed a three-year extension that I would sign

Jamal shed for three years 24 any day of the week thrilled about that and can be even though he's

small a total bulldog on defense and so they have they have a lot to work with on defense I think

they're going to be just ferocious in that particular regard and to me the sum of a lot of what

you're talking about Kyle stars what what did they need offensively was they needed half court

calm and koai Leonard is among the calmest and coolest half court operators we've seen a modern

and be a history and so that like frenetic when things slow down what is scottie have to problem solve

part of this formula it's just a much smaller issue and he can do that in smaller doses and find

ways to keep growing as a playmaker but now you have just this complete killer who you can turn to

on any possession where he's healthy and know you're going to get a good shot out of it and that

security is going to take the raptors a long way I think they're also adding anything from a manual

quickly who wasn't around for the playoffs and is perpetually hurt we'll see if he's healthy

this year but obviously would help the offense considerably they just found something ironically as

they tried to pivot away from project six nine something similar where their best versions are

playing small ball with car column Murray boils and scottie and those guys playing strong ball as

I'd like to call it it just feels like that is not a death line up as something in their pocket

that is a nice little curve ball especially is a lot of these teams start to size up in the front

core and so you know you try to change yourself but ultimately you end up back to to what sucia you

know but so familiar for them you know just the these long these lanky athletes multifaceted

versatile defenders I again I think they're longer we talk about the raptors the more I'm going to

try to sell you something I just I feel I feel very one over by this team they're going to have some

issues on the back end like some of the guys who are going to be playing important backup roles are

probably not quite cut for the minutes that they're going to play you know like they brought in Kyle

Anderson who I think is going to probably play some spot minutes for this team has seen better days

I'm not like a huge james and battle guy personally but I do like Jacoby Walter and so

you'll kind of see on the wing behind RJ and kawai how they want to manage that and maybe

that some of that is like shedding quickly playing together will stretch that stuff out too but

for what it is right now and the bones of this team I just like too much of what's going on

you know like the top seven is pretty easy to have a lot of confidence in like you said and then

it's it's interesting about like what what about Walter because it's like the production didn't

really change if you just look at the raw like totals and things it's just like taking better shots

and yep making them I mean he was just more efficient overall and sometimes it's as simple as

that to make yourself and that's like just being like roll conscious whatever it is but he's been sort

of a nice revelation for them and then Alan Gray you were talking about this team is just going to be

you know this whenever you're playing basketball it's like there are certain types of players that

when you get in there their their hands just kind of are accurate to the ball and very very strong

and there's a lot of that on this roster and they win got Alan yeah Alan Graves is another due to

fits that role who can space we'll see what he's going to be capable of he was a nice surprise

at some really good times but you think we'll see some quiet Scotty Barnes picking roll like

as Scotty as the screener we could see a little bit of short short roll Scotty just the pull the pull

up threat there and the ice like quiet just gives them a lot of wrinkles that I think could pay

dividends well I think especially depending on how the lineup shake out when you're playing some

groups that it's just very hard to have two forwards who can guard both of those guys at once and

then what it allows you to pick on is kind of dealer's choice yeah well we're obviously over our

skis for the Raptors I'm going to give you guys an opportunity to douse me with some cold water

here because one thing I have been kind of pondering here is like where is Scotty in terms of the

hierarchy we ranked him pretty high toward the end of last year after we did went to the playoffs

partly because he left on such a high note I'm starting to wonder in terms of like the second best

players on every team like where he ranks I think he has a credible case for being the best one

I think it's quite credible love to hear that I already love to hear that I thought you were going

to be the other side of this the water is not going to be that cold it's going to be oh

fairly tepid maybe even warm okay you guys both say tepid at the same time unfortunately that's

how you even podcast well this is a very tepid podcast though so I put down some names that are

in the conversation yeah right and so this is kind of the debate so Scotty obviously there

yeah calling it the town definitely Jaylen Williams for the thunder how you really cut up the

sixers at this point is is interesting who would you say is their second best player who is their

first best player I think Tyrese maxi's probably their best player I think so too and I think

their second best player is probably LeBron but I mean John Brown right there it's one of those two

Joel I think is too unreliable physically you're weighing production and consistency with Tyrese

because I mean LeBron's more versatile in every single conceivable way so you tilt maxi a little bit

yeah if if you were to ask me this question just like casually I would say LeBron just like based

on impulse and what are we doing here well we're on mics and this is being recorded for people

and they're going to hold it against me not casual but if in the course of a regular season like

Jaylen Brown is more dependable I think like has higher highs because LeBron needs to pace

himself a little bit more so it really is depending on like peaks versus longevity over the course

of a season so that's the sixers however you want to cut that up LeBmello Kyrie Bam Pascal

am I missing anybody else I mean I think Kyrie is probably still the best Maverick so maybe

he or Cooper I guess okay so you're saying Cooper's too either way I think that class of

player is different I think we're way too high for Kyrie Cooper even LeBmello like Scotty is way good

like I mean let's let's kind of dice it up one of the best defensive players in the world right

now I think has a very good chance at some point to win defensive player the year certainly to be a

first team all defense guy for however long he keeps playing this way putting up the kind of

assists numbers you talked about in the playoffs in particular a great facilitator not always

have half-court offense but generates a lot of offense by his mere existence and processing of the floor

and I think as we saw in that in that playoff series just such a focused downhill force whenever

you give him any run away whatsoever like who he was in transition and semi-transition situations

should be terrifying to the entire league and that combination of skills is comprehensive and

benefits everyone around him and doesn't come with even in the championship glow the caveats with

someone like cat you know like like the you know the fouling the decision making all that stuff is

still there with cat he's validated in all kinds of ways earned and bolstered and helped win

that championship for New York not trying to take anything away from him but I just think Scotty has

as good a case as any of the guys we're talking about to be the best number two player in the NBA

yeah I would still probably put Jalen Williams one if we're just turning injuries off

sure I mean one of finals for the Thunder is pretty fucking good he was able to to fill that

void and like I expect him to be an even more integral part of what we'll get to the Thunder eventually

but like what he brings defensively is just so important to them especially considering a size

but I think Barnes is gonna be right there and I also think he's in an optimal position with

Koi coming in of not getting too much again because I thought he excelled last year in part because

they took some of the expectations off of him it's more you allowed some of his more field base IQ

stuff to pop in the midst of everything else going around and so it's more like if he's on the move

creating and he could shine as a passer and and his feel rather than expecting him to be point Scotty

who has a rookie was like at the ball in his hands and he just expecting to be like he's you can't

really box him in I think that's where you get into the trouble and if you just allow him the freedom

in the midst of everything else they have going on I think it's better for him and I think he could

probably maybe play closer to the playoffs Scotty than he even got in the right graces which is

already a good version yeah let me speak to his value at there's a there's a point where he's a

jack of many trades where you're listing out the top 100 there's a point for me is like a guy

building a team where I would pick a person who is a more realized and bought in number two who

was supporting then a then an implied guy who was like I'm a primary but it hits efficiency walls

you know what I mean it's like if you talk to Scotty and you asked him and made him like reveal

his heart of hearts if he thinks he's actually a primary I don't know I haven't had that conversation

with him maybe somebody has but it seems to me that he kind of knows who he is and it's like

Kauai is going to come in here and Scotty's going to do a lot of job so he's he's just it's kind of

the Pippin Jordan old debate kind of a thing it's like at what point would you rather have like a

really highly qualified number two there is a point where they kind of supersede a player who

thinks that they're a primary but hits walls well especially when that number two is 25 years old

just was acting as a number one by necessity and almost made it out of a first round series

against a really good calf's team so like it's he is on that cusp he is better than a lot of those

guys who are going to be leading their own teams this season and it's it's to the raptors great

benefit it is true like I can't think of many players who would willingly accept another number one

coming on to their team right because cat went in New York to do it like if let's just say shade

didn't exist and they traded for Kauai like might feel a certain way sure like all these guys have

egos and like individual goals and all this other stuff like Scotty just feels like he's more of a

go along sort of guy which is the advantage because we've redrafted that draft class so many

fucking times like there's a point where like that was an important distinguishing characteristic from

some of those other guys because like he sets a baseline in a way that certain guys just need a

team tailored to you more you could import a Kauai and not expect as much from him but when you

need him you expect everything from him yeah because you have Scott it's the igua doll a thing too

a little bit right I mean igua dolla like ran up against like he was capable of being a point guard

but it's just kind of his scoring faculties were just not quite what they needed to be for him to

carry a competitive team and then you put him on a team with like an obvious primary and it's like

all of those things just becoming invaluable to like the highest highest iteration of a team and

it's like Scotty kind of in that category for me but he's scoring a little more than igua you know

I don't know how you feel about that I think maybe a different level of prospect than even igua dolla

was like the best versions of a hundred of dollars sick like a basic winning player helped so many

different organizations in different contexts over the course of his career but I think Scotty has

a chance to be something really and truly special and you're right to have the right kind and right

amount of ego to take the lessons of a loss to be I'm good but we need something different and not

that I can't do a version of that thing but maybe I'm not quite there yet maybe we can accelerate

it by bringing in this other player and I'm up for that kind of challenge of working with them

it's exactly the kind of personality type you want in a starts it's something that as we're talking

about these other second and third best stars in the league like I think Tyrese Maxi is a very

similar thing and LeBron was even saying that in coming to Philly in the first place it was like

his sign on is part of why I'm here and Kuala Lennard would not be in Toronto if Scotty Barnes

were not down for it and that alone speaks volumes all right one guy we didn't get to who we

should really talk about more in death is Colin Murray boils I think we're all really excited about

right absolutely okay well we're gonna do that with the help of our friends from Sam's Club

because this next segment is brought to you by Sam's Club during the holidays everyone's in a

club the cool aunts club the not socks this year club the food coma club but every season there's

a team that earns its way into a club nobody expected so this segment is about the news members

of the club spotlighting a teams news offseason edition not an offseason edition but you're two of

Murray boils what's like a reasonable expectation from him because like I can get pretty unreasonable

pretty quick will Chamberlain yeah okay like I need again I need you guys to reel me back in because

hundred points the off the court conquest what are we talking about specific all of the above for

coats I don't put anything beyond him at this point I my optimism about Colin Murray boils is

unreasonable is maybe even somewhat unfounded but he was so good in the playoffs and looks like

to me he's gonna be one of the best defensive biggs in the league for a long time so where can I

come back down to earth if you followed him at all lead I mean this is just he he's been

adorling for a long time for for good reason I mean he's an insanely intelligent player I think

that propels him and allows him a guy of his offensive abilities but also challenges that

they're their conditions to making him work that we can get into you would have to be really

wildly smart as a player and he is I mean he basically he has facilitator tendencies he's but

I mean the defensive stuff he's he's probably offensively in like the Asar Thompson like kind of

you have to figure out ways to make him work sure but that's those are the challenges that the

Raptors have but the defensive stuff you all nail it I mean he's so so smart and can just switch

up and down the line we mentioned the hands thing with the Raptors he falls right in line with

that he's just has a lot going on that's just a defensive star though like I think there's a

chance he starts the season coming off the bench the Raptors do need yaka perl in some capacity

and so however they want to manage the rotation is whatever it is to me he's like the Dylan Harper

of centers like it's so clear that he is part of the future of this team a huge part of the future

of this team what his role ends up being for this season I don't know but when shit matters he's

gonna be on the floor it's gonna be detonating plays he's gonna be coming up with rebounds that

he shouldn't given his size dunks he shouldn't given his size I just think there's so much that's

so improbable about him that it makes me believe he could do almost anything I'm trying to think of

once we established the Dremont archetype I had to literally what I was thinking about a player

who actually made good on it yeah you talked about this going into the draft how like we've

tried it with so many different guys and I think it was an easy label to apply to a big who wasn't

big enough uh marie-bowl obviously we had an advantage because he just seemed so cerebral and

skilled but has made good on it like almost immediately it's almost like post-fat like after

emo is big like everyone went off to something else and now all of a sudden this emo band is like

topping the charts wait it was a fat it was never a fat you're right that's what I'm saying it's a

lifestyle okay what are you saying we never win a way maybe here metal we you know yeah something

like that where you we're expecting it anymore and all of a sudden this guy came back in full force

yeah it's my mind was in the same spot because I mean I remember covering that draft Danny Chow and I

were talking about comps of things and it was just like it's right there do we want to do it it's

so cliche we're like he is just insanely Dremondian like he's he is just a fire hydrant that walls up

you don't want to just outright call him a five but he's very hard to play through he has long

strong arms he is great impeccable timing his instincts are great he's a high level processor

on the defensive side of the floor he's just he's such an asset to have and yeah he was talking about

he he slimmed down a little bit do we think that that's does that affect fire hydrant status

at all I think fire hydrant status is innate like you could take 15 pounds off of Chuck Hayes and you

still can't move that Chuck Hayes is another one yeah that's an interesting one yeah you have to

put a little bit more respect on some of the more chunky labels that I threw aside to start his

career yeah so how would you describe him now dense and serious absolutely a dense serious basketball

player after our own hearts is stout good he's like I think he's like a Guinness unquestionably

stout kind of shaped like a Guinness like this too CMB has definitely earned his spot and the one

thing I know about every breakout squad is you have to earn your spot and during the holiday

Sam's club is the club that helps you earn yours whether you're part of the deal hunters club

or the last minute gift givers club Sam's club has the brand names you want without blowing your

budget come join us Sam's club all right before we move on to our last team any any guys or

things you still want to hit I think the one I would like to hit is RJ Barrett who I think is kind

of in a tough spot because of the quiet situation because of the state of the team where he's kind

of like the one guy standing around waiting for an extension that is not going to come and

is really important to the Raptors last year probably will be very important to them this year

his ability to kind of facilitate kind of navigate space he was one of the most consistent drivers

on that team I don't know what he's going to be to this group but it does kind of suck to be the

one guy waiting to get paid on the team that we're talking about so glowingly yeah it's funny

it's like he's no small contributor on this team now 20 points a game and he's over time he's got

he's except he's never ascended to full like knockdown status but I mean he's good enough and

it's kind of been a fascinating arc for him you know being the you know the number he was number

three pick I guess and and we were just kind of thinking about his upside he settled into this

like really high quality role player thing where it's like it's been interesting where he moved away

from the expectations of this is probably not a primary in the NBA I never really thought that

he was but he's almost gotten to the point where you're right it's like we need to correct a

little bit where he's kind of undervalued yeah I think at this point he's a classic good neck

great player and so he's useful until you need to level up to the top echelon of the league

it is funny though like if you were to take those three guys from that draft class from this point

forward so it's Zion J.J. in our J. Barrett is it odd to line through the middle even though even

though the highs are you know you see them say it's like the highs are definitely higher we thought

like he's never going to lead a playoff team the way that J.A.D. did with the Grizzlies and

he's never going to be as individually one-on-one undeniable the way Zion is but just that like

it's almost like a financial like risk averse investment where you're just like this is going to

just slowly it's a fangstock it's gonna it's CD but it's gonna just creep ahead at the finish line

and be like that ended up being the best investment you know he's gonna show up he's gonna be there

it's really true but I think it's tough for guys like him again where we and coaches and everyone's

like asking these guys who are not quite starts okay do all this role player stuff find a supporting

role learn how to shoot learn how to cut learn how to defend like lock into these other parts of your

game and everything else will take care of itself RJ Barrett did that stuff and everyone set along

the way this is how you find your way in your career and he's still not getting paid you know so

it's like I you understand why especially guys who are drafted super high chase as long as they

possibly can after whatever version of start them they can get because this is the middle ground

you sometimes find yourself in if you don't achieve it all right last team on the docket number

11 the Indiana Pacers which I have to say I'm proud of you guys because I was expecting to have

to like come in here with armor just all around yeah shield sword lance all the good stuff

because I just I just assumed that we would get a little bit over our skis considering where the

Pacers were last time we left them with a healthy tyriti taliburant would that be over the skis if

we're just going off of actual results you'd be on the skis at that point I think so that's

just responding to all the information in front of us well I think it's less about well there's

actually two questions it's like can they replicate the success they found just as a team yeah

and then the bigger question I think is just the context of the league that we last saw them

and a little bit differently because if anything they were at the forefront of a different sort of

team building strategy where we're not only the depth but the pace that they played with all

added to this advantage at the right time when that was uh uh way to zag again some of the more

star driven players now it seems like the teams that are deep are also doing it with like first round

picks like a deep team is the spurs and they have all this talent plus the air box plus

other guys like the the Pacers by contrast seem like normally deep but they still had something

and if our hellburt is healthy clearly you expect them to replicate some version of I just don't know

how much it matters now the depth in particular well could it be this like overwhelming trump card in

the way it was two years ago I guess the counter to my own argument would be like well they play a

certain style that allows them to improvise in the fly and playoff setting so that would be the case

for it on the other hand like do they have the same level of talent base that like some of the top

teams in the league have now wait I like this podcasting style what is the counter to your counter

I'm just having my own discount I kind of like well it's that tires off her and I can keep doing this

yeah tires out of her in century concerns would be that they are look I think it's tough as much as I

was like what we talked about Zubash now anytime you want I just think it's tough anytime you're

expecting a team to pick up right where they left off year over year that's not an assumption you

can make doing it a full season later after everything everyone has been through Tyrie's

halibur in most of all they're gonna have to figure out who they are again and a lot of that is

incorporating a pizza Zubach who's a massive not just literally but philosophically piece of this

team that they have not had before that's gonna require some change figure out who they are in the

east is gonna require some change all of these guys adjusted in very subtle ways without Tyrie's

and are either gonna have to go back into the box they came from or try to apply their new trades

with this new version of the team I think the basers are gonna be awesome I think they're gonna be

like stylistically coherent in all the ways we expect but like pretending there's not a learning

curve here would be disingenuous yeah but it's a learning curve that I don't think is like a verse

to fun instinctive basketball I just think Haliburton you know I talked about the impact that I

think that Kingston is gonna is gonna have with the Hawks I just think that Haliburton is probably

the best force multiplier like cultural yoke itches in there too I just think that he has even less

like implied like Haliburton affects the the value of the players that he plays with in a way that's

very very unique and I had a I had a few moments where I was like looking at these rankings where I was

like man do I just do I just love his style of place so much that I'm gonna fall into a trap of

overrating him here there are a couple the answers the the the questions that need to be asked is

we're really really doing a huge sea change stylistically from from Miles Turner to Zubach they

inherently they occupy different spots of the floor I do think that you know Zubach is kind of a

workman like inside the arc score I mean like in terms of like volume around the basket scores he's

been one of the most I don't remember 16 players it posted up a thousand or more possessions in the

past five seasons and he's seventh in play in efficiency on that so it's like he's not like a

dominant crazy but he's just very workman and steady I think that this is gonna work because I just

think it's a short role partner he's gonna be good and then the other one I think is like the the

math are into Kelly Ubrey I guess is kind of the would you agree that that's kind of the is that

the obvious baton passing that's going really the choice change from that right else team yeah other

I mean other than zoo but in terms of the bench in particular yeah we're talking around the

existential question here so we can just get into it it's what is the bigger obstacle is it the

bench or is it incorporating zoo and so on the one hand zoo is a much more accomplished player

than Miles Turner much better feel much better defender there's a lot to like there it reminds me

of a team like trying to grasp at something that they knew was like always a bit of a weakness and

finally like trying to round out that by getting someone like zoo obviously they pay the hefty

price considering the way the trade ultimately ended up going I mean a historical will probably

be talking about that trade for years and years to come did not go well well I mean if you want to

start there I mean would you rather have Keaton Woggler for his career or would you rather have

zoo for the rest of his contract well the issue is not Keaton Woggler it's like it's more ping pong ball

dependent than that right because it's like you lose Keaton Woggler to the clippers but if the balls

bounce differently Kayla Wilson is a pacer and so it's like that is a dreamatically different

result right that is a thing that changes the course of the franchise but if we're just talking

about specifically how it played out yeah the one to one what would you but it's the high end to

the low end right it's the range of that impact so like I don't think I don't think Keaton Woggler

changes that much about the pacer's I think he actually plugs in quite well and would play well

off the bench and would fit everything that they do yeah but that's not the issue to me so much as

you accepted the cost of what it would take for you to lose the top four pick and for to lose the

opportunity cost of Keaton Woggler yeah so where did we end up so you'd rather have zoo

much I would rather you have to make the binary I don't think that the protections that they applied

in that trade were sufficient and I think Kevin Pritchard made that very clear immediately after

it blew up in his face he admitted the gamble didn't end up he swung and it was for them to if

that had hit that would have been something for a team that hasn't had a lot of relight that they

as an organization have thread the needle forever they like don't really go they kind of stay in the

middle and stay competitive because they have to in the market that they're in if it's it's smart to

go that way and he made a risk analysis that just didn't pay off yeah I I guess I kind of wonder

like who Hal Burton is gonna be this upcoming year I mean do we think that his play style and like

just the the start stop like I do kind of wonder like what his production is gonna be like this

upcoming year like like what recovery it's specifically with the way that he plays like it

is it gonna be our team's gonna press room more are they gonna test his ability to be kind of

evasive elusive you know it's like I wonder what he's physically gonna be like it ultimately is

a window question did you see such an opportunity in the next two to three years that Zubach just

like we had to get him in there you were worried about Hal Burton just like taking advantage of his

prime independent of like where the injury was but also like Pascal's you know getting older you know

like he's not gonna be around for five years in all the sudden keepin wallet with that's finally

when he catches it on the other hand you want outs and you have opportunity and as we seem like

teams that leave the door open for certain like possibilities talk about optionality with Brad

Stevens like that's it to its core and so I don't know there are a lot of competing factors I think I

would have if it was a one-to-one of the way it's laid out I would go zoo but it obviously it was

wuggler and other stuff on on top of there so well zoo is probably a better player than Keaton

Woggler will be if I had to guess this is as early as it gets on Keaton Woggler that knows that's

a statement I mean I just think zoo is proven a lot he's proven he can be in a good season on all

NBA caliber center and all NBA caliber center who does not take a lot away from you in terms of

however whatever style you want to play and I'm most eager to see him and Tyree's together for

a bunch of reasons but I think who he is as a short roller where you talk to his post-op game

if you look at those post-ups they're not just like he goes to the low block and waits it's

sometimes he rolls into a deep seal that becomes a post-op it's all stuff that can work fluidly

in a pacer style offense despite the fact that he is a giant somewhat plotting center

but he's fleet of foot enough to make a roll like this work and that's certain to you something

that is a little bit more palatable than the like miles didn't like to do that kind of stuff and

his pick and pop game really killed him at the worst possible time I mean like there there were

moments where he had wide open threes that the Thunder Conceited and he just didn't make him so

and the other thing too is that like positionally I think Zubach people just kind of see big lumbering

white guy and they just think they think a certain thing about him defensively but he really gets

a lot of mileage out of like he's very smart with verticality like positionally he's he just

is his attention to detail helps him like level up and be a better defender than I think he gets

credit for also kind of like he has the vertical element but he's also so broad and when he positions

himself like widens himself out in a way that just eats space and so when you're talking about

which biggs can survive in the NBA it's your ability to cover and scamper out and hang with guards

but also like how much can you clog the lane and I I was he among the best in the league at that exact

skill right now I think spiritually the way he thinks the game is very much a pacer you know and so

he is fit in that regard the question ultimately comes down to all the new wrinkles that he bring

out way the fact that Turner at the end of the day would just space the floor and they were just

so dependent and so good utilizing that space halibur in particular and so maybe he'll slow him down

a little bit he'll be the one like starting the break you won't be the one like trying to run

alongside these guys that's a difference there and then you just just wonder like I also think this

team is health dependent and kind of gets us to the question which I don't know if I articulate

before that the trade-off is really what's more essential to them reclaiming what they use to have

it's the bench or Zubash I think one of the things that got lost to time was the fact that the

Pacers took off as soon as they got healthy midway through that season season to go with Aaron

Neesmith all of a sudden comes back and then it fits and I do think this team is more dependent on

the depth that they've assembled than some of these other teams that have now the stars and the

depth because if you just lose Dylan Harper Daring Fox for a couple of weeks you have a bunch of

other guys who could pace you through the season with the importance of stars that was the whole thing

where like you assemble big threes because when one guy's out you have two supersized it doesn't

work that way anymore but like there's a certain logic applying that to the Pacers where it's like

if they don't have their assemblage of talent then it does feel like they're weaker as a result

because the collective is where the strength lies and when they're healthy and fully clicking that's

when they're optimizing they're very healthy during that playoff run and that's why they took off

and so that's also why I'm like I'm I can see the pathway of them reclaiming things but I'm also

I want them to prove it before I'm really bothered. Does that understate Pascal a little bit though?

I mean maybe somewhat but I think I hear what you're saying about them the uniqueness of their

build is that they really do have like six or seven truly load bearing players who are difficult

to replace in their way who are very valuable in their role and when you have Haliburna

there with them in particular he is making all of them 15% better than they actually are and so

that cohesiveness and the way that they blend and the way that they build off each other it's

it's vital to their chances but also vital to their ability to get through the season I think

where Pascal comes in and I think where Zoo comes into like those are two pretty versatile bigs

who we haven't seen a version of the Pacers have a Zoo style weapon but we've seen what Rick

Cargill does with Pascal Siacum a guy who can post up we can work for mid range you can work from

the elbow when you have one more solidified go to offensive weapon what does that do to the stability

of that seven or eight man core when one guy is out and so who Zoo is with the starters is going

to decide the high end of the Pacers but who the Pacers are when they're missing two guys on a Wednesday

in January but Zoo is going wild that might determine their regular season standing they just

they have some guys that have audacity as shooters that is just particularly really rewarded in

this style of play I mean we saw Nice the least one well I mean what happens is when you have

these moments whenever you need guys to sort of just have out of body experiences where they have

the leash and they're allowed to do it like Tyrese feeds into that in a way that like Nesmith when

that moment came he just he took it like it just made sense because you're incentivized but like to

run into cut into get to your spot and you just you end up reaping those benefits but we're talking

about like Siacum he in that season where they went off I mean he just you you were talking about the

different ways that his pie is divided that he he just adds so so much Grinning I mean he wasn't

able to carry them in entire uses like absence last year to like say the same level but

that's a very hard to be honest like he tried but as a as a team yeah they knew where they were

yeah he just he does he does a lot no we've had the logical conversation can I go to the haters ball

version of this yeah I guess so when Helver and got married okay wow he was he is not the haters

ball I was anticipating no did I has nothing to do with that it's more about did you see how they

brought 50 cent on to sing I I ran New York or whatever okay I run New York yeah you think it's

corny or what corny like he always kind of walks that tyrone but okay I get it from the sense that like

you were the last team to beat them in the playoffs yeah there's a certain chest bumping element to

that having something they just won the title and so it did like kind of underlined to me like maybe

we're stuck in two years ago and we haven't passed the point like I think if any other result happened

to the nix and that previous postseason like you're fine to still have the crown but then they won

the championship like you can't claim superior I feel like the nix winning only makes the

Pacers win that much more impressive the nix are gonna be coming for his ass after all of that

because he's taking a particular but I will flip that and say though also I mean like with the

tirey stuff just it's funny like a time I mean he does things where you're like okay this guy's

a goofball but he's a blogger me but he's got that sense so it's that that would be one thing that

would be one thing where yet but he's just he's unassailable as like a bad something it's just like

that's a dude who's just like has take grab the moment by by the by the throat time and time again

you can't be he has the right to talk that shit man I have a wide berth for corniness if you show

up and hit every clutch shot on an all-time playoff run and in that game come within a bounce of the

ball to say nothing of his Achilles rupture of somehow winning the finals anyway I forgot how early

in that game seven that happened because I was watching you were talking about my superstition I was

like ready to skip it I was like oh fuck there just have it like dude the vibe in that game like what

world will we be living in if they had pulled that off because they they had the thunder they had

the thunder yeah it was really interesting juxtaposition of styles and stars between now Albert

and the thing about the nicks as we know them now star stars yeah sorry we can't do that but you

can do that the nicks as we know them now bumping up against the scene the first time they play I mean

all all of the building resentment all of the corniness you talked about in the taunting but

also the newfound confidence on the nickside in believing every bit of their own bullshit is what

as far as what they could bring to a match up like this I I really can't wait to see it he plays

the villain role well and he willingly accepts it and I appreciate that because we have so few

guys who really want to play up the pageantry of the game anymore like yeah as he replicating the

regime role certainly there's there's definitely replication there but like he's doing it and I

think we need more of that frankly the flip side of this the one thing that I really found was like

great in his favor I saw a video of him just last night where he was going through apparently he's

very thrifty and so like his parents have like designed his entire place with furniture that they

got from like Facebook marketplace wow and apparently he goes on grilled and Facebook marketplace

and just like low balls got so I was gonna say I hope it's not with his name I hope it's a

burner oh I think I think it is he apparently sold a turn or he bought a turntable from someone

off you got into DJing I know that and apparently the guy didn't recognize him until toward the end

he's like yeah it's me gotta go and he's zoomed off so imagine like Tyres Haliburne wants the

buy your vintage yeah when you're really just I'll see sell your power tools yeah he's the one buy

that's all fine mill ground there anything else you want to talk about with the pace of his guys

things perhaps I think there's still a couple things I mean for one one of the questions I have

coming out of last season is like is there anything new here right not just zoo not just picking up

Kelly Ubre who we can talk about some more but like did anyone pick up any notable skills that are

going to manifest in this version of the team some of that I think is just going to kind of get put

back but the one that I think would actually make a difference is all the success that the sick that

the Pacers admittedly in a broken season in which no one was taking them seriously had playing

Pascal the five something they did not really do much before really took off for them last season

he turned out he was like very good at it and his mobility and his speed and his versatility was

just killing opposing bicks who would try to guard him and so when you get behind zoo like

Jay Huff is gonna have a place in this rotation for sure will be top in my place in five here and

there but I would be very surprised if we don't see more Pascal the five than we did during that

finals run will speed bike lineup it really really really works for them what I like and blanking

on the did how much that was like a circumstantial like novel thing though you're talking about keeping

it as a novel thing or like leaning into it as like this is not this is like a feature of what we're

doing I think zoo is too good for it to start but as the as the primary when we get into the playoffs

Jay Huff is like trimmed from the rotation Pascal Seyakum is your like primary backup center I think

that feels fully reasonable to me yeah transition monster yeah yeah do we need a jerry's walker

mention just for your posterity I think growth from me is not mentioning him until this point oh that's

nice you know I thought you're not at all but is that you like resignation I just like he's not

gonna be in the rotation to start the season I've already made the claims too many times they're like

this is his moment this is his season there's an opening he's the breakout player of the playoffs

just I don't know that it's gonna happen I don't know that there's gonna be an opportunity for it to

happen so I'm just gonna sit back quietly and if it does happen you'll be hearing from me a lot

then take a victory last two nothing less I reserve the right one thing I have just says I'm like

on a denim here so they got Kelly Ubrei Benedict Mathur and ultimately came free could have

ultimately just walked back into that you know back yeah I think they had already signed based

off of everything that happened it took a while for Mathur and you get out of a prescription

for agency like they had already signed Ubrei but essentially they could have just had

Mathur in back that's a little curious little little trade off and what if I guess I'm interested

the Pacers were in that by the end that's the same I mean that trade happened for a reason his

brilliance was always gonna like walk the line of it's he was always on the end danger of spilling

over beyond his role because he just aspired to do more and in a team that played that way you

could see how that could potentially be something that's like yeah this is tilting we're not ready

to sign back up I think Ubrei is a very good replacement he's a lot more contained and could add

the same things yes that's the thing had a really nice season for the Sixers but one of the things

that Indie relies on with that bench is having guys who come off the bench and can really really

pop on a given night so you have TJ McConnell you have Ubrei you have Obi-Toppin all candidates for

like a 12 point quarter or an 18 point game like can get really put a stamp on things in a way that

your systemic we play our way stuff we'll turn you far along but sometimes you see something to

go outside the box yeah all right that's part four we are now through two thirds of the power

rankings how we doing how you feeling I want to run I could run back from the top okay yeah new

takes no no repeats yeah we just have to come up with entirely new things to say about all these things

I think we could do it much like your wardrobe you just don't be aware something once and you

give it away you've had too much to say about my wardrobe today okay all right well we wrap it

there thank you to Victoria Valencia thank you to Ben Cruz and Isaiah Blakely we'll be back next time

with the top 10 starting on Wednesday we'll talk to you then

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